Transcript
Speaker: Hi guys!
Speaker: You are about to listen to an episode that I recorded with my dear friend Peter Lopez.
Speaker: He is a lead pastor at Remnant in Tucson, Arizona.
Speaker: He has been within the church for over 20 years.
Speaker: He is by far one of the coolest people I have ever known.
Speaker: And I'm really excited for you guys to listen to this episode and hear more about our thoughts on religion, spirituality, and some sticking points that I have along the way.
Speaker: Enjoy!
Speaker: Okay, thanks for being here.
Speaker: So this is actually our first podcast that we're doing in person.
Speaker: So if the audio sounds a little weird, please just be kind.
Speaker: We're trying something new.
Speaker: And also it's really fun that I get to actually do, it feels like a live recording or something in person.
Speaker: So I thought that it would be good to start with our individual journeys with
Speaker: religion, spirituality.
Speaker: I think I can summarize mine pretty quickly because it's not that in depth and then I'd love to hear yours.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Let's do it.
Speaker: I didn't grow up with religion in the household.
Speaker: My parents didn't ask me to go to church or they didn't go to church themselves.
Speaker: The first time that I went was with a friend and her family, and they went to a Lutheran church.
Speaker: And so I just went there and was like, oh, I guess I'm Lutheran.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: And then I didn't really keep going because if I wasn't, oh, also if you hear Willow whining in the background, like we're just going to leave that into.
Speaker: But I didn't keep going on my own behalf.
Speaker: And then in high school, I found Young Life, which I really love.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people have at least heard of Young Life.
Speaker: It seems like it's a really popular thing to me.
Speaker: Am I...
Speaker: I think it was a popular thing.
Speaker: I think it still goes on.
Speaker: I just don't hear about it as much.
Speaker: Like in my day, it was popular.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely had like a peak.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So I was probably like right there at the peak.
Speaker: And I loved Young Life.
Speaker: Like I really loved it.
Speaker: I loved doing the, they had like their Monday night things.
Speaker: Did you ever go to a Young Life?
Speaker: I wasn't a part of a Young Life, but I went to some of
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Because they're always in homes.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So they have like a host house.
Speaker: Yes, they have the host house.
Speaker: And it was, I think it was on Monday nights, if I remember correctly.
Speaker: And I just, I loved it.
Speaker: The community vibe, how kind everyone was, how welcoming everyone was.
Speaker: And there was just this...
Speaker: like sort of innocence that was there that was refreshing for me because I was in high school and that was when other things were happening, you know, like, you know, everybody who's listening is probably not in high school.
Speaker: I then was gonna become a Young Life leader and I had a situation where I was dating a Young Life leader and I was going to Young Life and that was like really bad.
Speaker: That was a no-no, that was like a taboo thing.
Speaker: And already just that,
Speaker: really turned me off from the whole situation.
Speaker: And my boyfriend and I at the time decided that we weren't going to continue with Young Life.
Speaker: He wasn't going to continue being a leader and I wasn't going to continue attending.
Speaker: And in all honesty, I just wanted to party.
Speaker: Like I wanted to have fun.
Speaker: I wanted to be a little reckless.
Speaker: I felt like I've been so buttoned up my entire high school and school life that I
Speaker: Yeah, I was like, see ya.
Speaker: I'm going to go drink, like do some reckless things.
Speaker: And I definitely did.
Speaker: And then, yeah, now as of late, I've been feeling more called to expand upon when people say like, oh, do you have a faith or are you religious?
Speaker: I'm like, yeah, I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious.
Speaker: And I don't even really know what that means.
Speaker: But I do know that the church really did have a place in my life at some point in time that brought me a lot of peace, happiness, joy, community.
Speaker: And I think maybe just as I'm getting older, I'm searching for those things again.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: And then the most recent is I've been going to remnant.
Speaker: Your church.
Speaker: So two week old church.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's been really cool.
Speaker: I feel like, yeah, I'm like part of a club or something.
Speaker: It's very cool.
Speaker: But yeah, that's my, that's my summarized experience with religion and spirituality.
Speaker: So I will try to summarize mine because it's a, it's long.
Speaker: But I will say this, my first memory, I guess, of like anything spiritual was my dad worked at the air guard.
Speaker: And so he would leave work like at, I don't know.
Speaker: He would leave, he would just be gone.
Speaker: Like really, he was not there in the mornings, which is like fine.
Speaker: We all knew he had a job.
Speaker: He would come home early enough, you know?
Speaker: So it wasn't like an absentee thing or anything.
Speaker: He just had to be at the guard like by 6 a.m.
Speaker: or before the sun would rise.
Speaker: Yeah, so my earliest spiritual memory was my dad would come into every single one of our rooms and he would pray for us before he left for work.
Speaker: And that's a lot because there's seven kids.
Speaker: Oh, there's seven of you.
Speaker: Yeah, so there's like a...
Speaker: There was a commitment there.
Speaker: That's all I'm saying.
Speaker: He was dedicated.
Speaker: So, you know, sometimes, and, like, you see this, or maybe you remember, it's, like, when your dad would, like, you'd be asleep in the car, and then you'd, like, sometimes pretend to keep being asleep.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: So you didn't have to, like... Oldest trick in the book.
Speaker: Yeah, right?
Speaker: So there was a few times where I would wake up,
Speaker: because either the door open or I'd be hear his voice and I would like still pretend like I'm sleeping.
Speaker: And now that we got older, like all of our siblings did that at some point.
Speaker: So that was the earliest like spiritual memory I had.
Speaker: And it was obviously a really good one, you know?
Speaker: And then because there's seven of us there, getting anywhere was difficult.
Speaker: And then getting anywhere on a weekend was difficult.
Speaker: So we definitely went to church, but it wasn't,
Speaker: Like I would say I wasn't at church enough to be a part of church culture.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Like the subculture that churches have or that, you know, religions have.
Speaker: So it wasn't until I was 14 years old and at 14, there was like a summer camp.
Speaker: I was kind of forced to go.
Speaker: My sister was also going Katrina.
Speaker: And it's not that I had like any,
Speaker: reason not to go.
Speaker: It was just fortunate on me being a brat, right?
Speaker: And so I went, a lot of fights, right?
Speaker: Of me getting there or not.
Speaker: But I do remember what you remembered is that it was like eight hours away.
Speaker: So we're in this bus for eight hours.
Speaker: And I was like, these are the nicest people.
Speaker: Like everyone just wants to have fun.
Speaker: Everyone's just chilling.
Speaker: You know, like everyone kind of is going into this camp expecting just fun, expecting
Speaker: from maybe their past experiences of going to camp.
Speaker: So everyone was just really welcoming.
Speaker: So when you're stuck somewhere for eight hours on a bus, like you get to know people.
Speaker: So by the time I got to the camp, I felt very comfortable because I just spent eight hours with all these people I'm gonna spend a whole week with.
Speaker: And
Speaker: that Thursday night, I heard an analogy of like the gospel.
Speaker: And that analogy was that there is, and it may like be a little more freaking out because we're like post COVID.
Speaker: So I'm like at this camp, they let us know too.
Speaker: Like they're like very honest.
Speaker: Like we're going to basically share the gospel, but like in a different way.
Speaker: and so they talk about a disease that started somewhere in the world and it basically just like spread and spread and spread and obviously people are concerned people are like dying from it and at a point like the world is like hey you need to figure this out right and like have this vaccine literally like yes and so everyone is asked to go into like the hospital
Speaker: They ask everyone to go and see if they have like rare blood type to see if that will, that blood type basically has like the cure in it, right?
Speaker: And so everyone's like in these hospitals and just, I don't know, imagine obviously COVID now because now we have that in our heads.
Speaker: Something, yeah.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Or like New York or the height of COVID, the epicenter.
Speaker: And the hospitals are crazy, all this stuff.
Speaker: So a dad brings his son.
Speaker: to they both get tested and then the they're waiting for hours and hours to get discharged and then like all these nurses and all these doctors just like flood this waiting room and just like grab this son away from his father and then he's freaking out obviously he's like well what do i do you know what's going on and the doctor's telling like listen your son has this blood to create this like
Speaker: this vaccine for the whole world.
Speaker: And we were obviously hoping that it would be like a full grown person, but your son's so young, you know, like we basically like need all of him.
Speaker: Like we need all of his blood to save the world.
Speaker: And the son's obviously very aware of this too.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And what's going on.
Speaker: And so the father and the son have a conversation and the son's like, yeah, take it.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: take my blood, right?
Speaker: Just take my life if it's going to save this dying world.
Speaker: And so that was the analogy that was given of the gospel of God giving his son, Jesus, and then Jesus offering up his life for us, like willingly as a gift.
Speaker: And they shared that and was like, that's what following the Lord is.
Speaker: That's what like salvation is.
Speaker: I know I'm using a lot of Christian words right now,
Speaker: But that is like forgiveness.
Speaker: That is how you get to know your creator.
Speaker: All this stuff wrapped into it's available for you now.
Speaker: So if you want to start your relationship with God, you want to start your journey with him, you want forgiveness and to not feel guilt and shame over the things that you've done, this is...
Speaker: a gift and you can either take it or you cannot take it or accept it and not accept it.
Speaker: And you can start now to get to know what that all means.
Speaker: And this is when you were at camp and this is when you were 14.
Speaker: I think I was 15 at this point.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And so I was like, yeah, I want that.
Speaker: You know, like, cause I, even at 15 years old, like I knew I wasn't perfect.
Speaker: Like I knew that I obviously wasn't involved in all of these things or had a
Speaker: all this immense guilt or shame because I didn't have this like crazy past at 15 years old.
Speaker: But I was also 15 and I knew that I was imperfect and that there was things that I didn't want to like be identified as or have on me or I don't want to focus on the bad things are done or the anger that I had or whatever it may be.
Speaker: And so I was like, yeah, I want that.
Speaker: And I really did like have a spiritual experience at that moment.
Speaker: Like I felt, and I know there's verses and there's like songs and stuff, but like white as snow.
Speaker: Like I was like, I'm good, right?
Speaker: Like I'm like good now.
Speaker: Like I've accepted Jesus in my life and I'm starting this relationship with him.
Speaker: And I understand a little bit more of who I am and who I'm not.
Speaker: That's like when I started my relationship with God.
Speaker: And the next day I got baptized.
Speaker: You know, I was like, they had it and it was optional.
Speaker: And so I was like, I'm going to do it.
Speaker: It's just like an outward demonstration of something that you've chosen to do inwardly.
Speaker: Yeah, so the night before, I was like, I want to accept what Jesus did for me on the cross, right?
Speaker: And I want to start a relationship with him.
Speaker: And the Bible talks a lot about being like a new creation, that you have like a second life now.
Speaker: Like you were born again.
Speaker: So it's like born again Christians.
Speaker: Like that's where it comes from.
Speaker: that now you're new because you don't have to focus on the past and what was in the past or what you've done in the past or who you were in the past, that that's all clean now.
Speaker: It's all forgiven.
Speaker: And so you can now start new, like you can start fresh and you can move forward.
Speaker: And that's like a daily thing too.
Speaker: So the word of God says that his mercies are new every single morning.
Speaker: So it's like you get to start fresh every single day.
Speaker: And so what baptism is, is you going under the water and saying, that's my old self.
Speaker: And I'm putting that old self to death.
Speaker: And now I'm coming out of the water like a new creation, a new person.
Speaker: So it's like a symbol, an outward symbol of like what you've already done inwardly yourself.
Speaker: And what is like, so for me, when I listened to that, I'm like, okay, I feel like I've had situations where, or like opportunities for me to grow as an individual.
Speaker: And instead of it being something like I'm born again, or this is, I'm a new, it's more of like, I've evolved the things within me.
Speaker: I still carry them with me, but they've just shifted a bit in a way that either I'm leaving a part of me behind, not necessarily leaving a part of me behind, but like,
Speaker: I'm not going to continue being this person.
Speaker: To give a more concrete example is like, I used to h ave a really bad temper.
Speaker: And when I was 18, I decided that that was not something that I wanted to continue having.
Speaker: So with this like born again, I find that, I find the verbiage of that to be really interesting.
Speaker: And it's like, is there this sense of leaving a part of you in the past?
Speaker: Or is it like, do you carry that version of you with you even in this like new state?
Speaker: A version of like, in what way?
Speaker: I guess what, what I have, the sticking point for me with baptism, baptism is that I'm like, I don't want to leave a version of me behind.
Speaker: Like she helped me get to where I am.
Speaker: I don't want to like disregard.
Speaker: There's a, there's a piece of it that feels like it's disregarding or dismissing the past me.
Speaker: And it's just focusing on this like new me.
Speaker: Is that, is that kind of the case or is there no, is it, is that not the case?
Speaker: Like, do you bring a part of you with?
Speaker: I think, well, yeah, that's like your experiences you're bringing with yourself.
Speaker: Like, it's not like that's like you got it all figured out at that moment either.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because like people still have things in their life that they haven't maybe grown out of or have the disciplines or the bad habits that they have.
Speaker: haven't been able to leave, right?
Speaker: So it's not like you're forgetting everything about your past or what's over, because there's like a word, like your testimony.
Speaker: It's like the whole embodiment of like who you are and like what you've experienced in your life.
Speaker: And so it is a part of who you are, but it's more so of the fact that you are choosing not to identify with the parts
Speaker: that like you explained like as anger yeah right so i am made new and obviously anger is not something that i want for myself that other people want that are around me you know like it's not something that shows in in my case like who god is and so that i'm going to choose to leave that behind
Speaker: There's like a couple things that I'm like, hey, don't forget this.
Speaker: One, I want to talk about this white as snow feeling that you mentioned.
Speaker: I feel like I've not white as snow, but, or like, is that it?
Speaker: White as snow?
Speaker: Is that the?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: It's just like, yeah, it's just another example.
Speaker: For me, I've had very spiritual moments, mainly in nature.
Speaker: Like, just this overflowing feeling of love and gratitude and joy that it will bring me to tears.
Speaker: And I think that that's something that people who
Speaker: practice a specific religion also feel.
Speaker: And it doesn't necessarily have to be in nature, but that they can just feel that when they are going to church.
Speaker: And even when I go to remnant, when we're in worship and, you know, the songs are being sung, they're Elijah.
Speaker: Elijah is your, first of all, Elijah is like, I sincerely want to meet him so bad.
Speaker: I think he's just this like beautiful person and I don't know him at all.
Speaker: Just the way that he carries himself and conducts himself during worship and like the conviction that he sings with, it's very moving.
Speaker: It's like a really, that to me is a spiritual moment for me.
Speaker: Watching Elijah sing is a very spiritual moment for me.
Speaker: I want to put the pin in like spirituality and what that kind of feeling is when we're talking about this overflowing feeling of love or this white as snow.
Speaker: But then the other thing that I wanted to pin on is continuing the trajectory of your
Speaker: your timeline with religion, because right now we're pretty much at 14 in camp and haven't heard anymore.
Speaker: So we'll get to that one.
Speaker: And then the last one, so I don't forget this, is how after being baptized, it's like, I think that is really when the work begins, you know, like starting this anew.
Speaker: And then I think that's when it is.
Speaker: So could you share more about your baptism experience and like how that went for you?
Speaker: So it was...
Speaker: And I tell this too, because now I baptize people, that if, when you look at the gospels, like Jesus had a life before he had a ministry.
Speaker: So like the part of the gospel.
Speaker: It's so wild to think about.
Speaker: You know, like just a regular dude.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Had a job, like, you know, like a mom and dad and brothers and sisters, like all that stuff.
Speaker: And it said that he didn't like start his ministry until it was like,
Speaker: early 30s.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Which, like, I, now that I'm, like, my late 30s, I'm like, that kind of makes a little bit more sense because, like, I feel like when you're in your early 30s, you're like, I think I got a whole...
Speaker: of life a little bit more.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So he had this whole life that we don't really know a lot about.
Speaker: There's not a lot spoken about from when his birth, there was a point where he was at a young age and was in the temple and his parents couldn't find him.
Speaker: And his mom went to go look for him and he was like, I'm doing what
Speaker: my father asked me to do.
Speaker: He said, I'm about my father's business.
Speaker: Like, you know, so there was some realization too.
Speaker: But anyways, moving forward to all this is that when he started his ministry that we have in the gospels, it wasn't until after he got baptized himself.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And do you know what age that was?
Speaker: Huh?
Speaker: That was like early thirties.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that was, yeah.
Speaker: And so there is this, that I felt at that moment too.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I made this step
Speaker: or this choice internally to follow after God.
Speaker: Now, next day, I'm choosing to make it public to the people around me at this camp.
Speaker: And it was like a decision that I made, right?
Speaker: It's like a choice.
Speaker: And so that's when I did start to be like, okay, now what does this look like for me?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Like, should I start reading the Bible?
Speaker: How do I pray?
Speaker: Should I go to church?
Speaker: And it was like a start of discipleship.
Speaker: I was just going to ask that.
Speaker: So that, that, like, I feel like you were, you felt so moved at the night before that it was like, I feel called or like, I want to explore that more.
Speaker: I want to, that, that felt like something that was worthy of honoring is kind of like what I'm getting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it was, I just didn't want to stop there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You know, it was like too good to not see what else it meant for me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: or what else I had for me.
Speaker: What a thing to realize at 15, by the way.
Speaker: Yeah, and I bring that up because it's like, that is, it's just cool to see that, obviously, in Jesus' life, that he was like, okay, now that I've been baptized myself, I'm going to start doing what my father has asked me to do.
Speaker: And that's, when he started his ministry, that's
Speaker: where we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
Speaker: And this too is that there, and I don't know if I said this on Sunday or not, but I do say it a lot, is that when it comes to Christianity, when it comes to following after Jesus, like he never asked you to do something that he hasn't done himself already.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: So I- Great leadership.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I was like, okay, I'm going to get baptized.
Speaker: And at the moment I didn't know, right?
Speaker: But then I look back, I'm like, oh, Jesus got baptized, right?
Speaker: And so now, like living out this for like decades now, it's like, I can just simply follow what he's done.
Speaker: And everything he asked me to do, he himself has already done.
Speaker: And so I know I can do it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So that's like that.
Speaker: But yeah, that was the start.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: further elaboration on your choice, like the experience you had, the spiritual experience you had, the choice of getting baptized and the reasons behind it, and then what you kind of experienced after you were baptized.
Speaker: And now, so now continue the trajectory of this is when you're 15.
Speaker: What happened after that?
Speaker: So I would say it was like 17 years old when I was like, okay, I'm going to dig a little bit deeper.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then like at 25,
Speaker: I had all these doubts, and I was like, okay, well, what does this look like?
Speaker: And I remember hearing this.
Speaker: I don't know who it was from, but it was in a teaching.
Speaker: And they're like, before you doubt God, doubt your doubts.
Speaker: Oh, that's so good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wait, that literally reminds me of a holdup.
Speaker: That reminds me of this one, what you said in Remnant.
Speaker: on which I would just say during church right like it's church yeah it's just yeah also what is the people have been asking me they're like is it a Christian church is it non-denominational yeah okay okay that's what I thought but I want to make sure so when you said we're gonna miss Jesus because we're not humble enough that that reminds me a bit about what you were saying we say that again before you doubt before you doubt God you should doubt your doubts yeah
Speaker: Like that one really spoke to me about the not being humble enough to see Jesus.
Speaker: And so my whole thing as of late is, yes, I have experience with Christianity and non-denomination in the past, but I'm not feeling so connected to the Christian faith presently.
Speaker: But I am feeling called to elaborating more on what faith I would put or what religion I would put my faith in.
Speaker: I'm open to it being of the Christian faith, but that, that really hit me when you said like, we're not going to be humble enough or we're not like allowing Jesus to like present himself in our lives.
Speaker: And I use, when I use Jesus, I'm pretty much using it synonymously with a religious figure, like not necessarily just Jesus.
Speaker: Like, you know, I can say Buddha, whatever, but like, because I think it could be applicable to more religions than just Christianity.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like if we're not allowing these things to present themselves to us, or like you said, if we're not being humble enough to allow these things to come into our lives, then like we can just miss those or before doubting religion or before doubting a religious figure, doubt the doubts.
Speaker: Like why not start there?
Speaker: Like, I think that's such a good, like, why wouldn't I just start with my doubts first?
Speaker: Instead of maybe going to the extreme.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So when you were from 17 to 25,
Speaker: You mentioned that you were diving deeper and then 25 you had some.
Speaker: I mean, it was 25.
Speaker: So I'm trying to look back and try to figure out exactly what it was.
Speaker: I just have all these emotions and thoughts attached to it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And it was just like, what am I going to do?
Speaker: Should I go back to school?
Speaker: Should I do this?
Speaker: Whatever.
Speaker: You know, it was like all like these feelings of just trying to figure out life at 25 again.
Speaker: And obviously like my faith went into that.
Speaker: And it was that I remember just hearing that.
Speaker: I was like, okay, like I need to doubt my doubts first.
Speaker: And to like this at that time, I was driving a lot and like going on a lot of trips.
Speaker: And what you said earlier, it's like, well, sometimes I'm in nature and I,
Speaker: have this spiritual experience.
Speaker: Like that just goes all the way back to like the beginning where like God created all these things and he said like everything was good.
Speaker: And so if you are going into Mount Lemmon or on a trip or here or there and you're enjoying life and you're enjoying nature, like it's all good.
Speaker: And like Genesis one talks about like, that's, it's supposed to be good.
Speaker: Like, and then Romans talks about that too.
Speaker: It's like, God is in everything because he created everything.
Speaker: And so it makes sense that if you are out and people watching, right.
Speaker: To like, maybe be overwhelmed.
Speaker: This world is so good and so beautiful and people are good and people are beautiful and, or when you go into nature.
Speaker: And you're like, this is like way bigger than any person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So it's like all those things are good and they're all created for good things.
Speaker: And do you believe they all reflect God and his image in some way?
Speaker: And so at 25, it was just, I feel like it's normal.
Speaker: It's like normal to have these ups and downs and these peaks and stuff.
Speaker: And I tell people too that
Speaker: when it comes to like church, like churches have life cycles and people have life cycles.
Speaker: And so it's like completely normal for you to have these ups and downs.
Speaker: And then at 30, I had another one.
Speaker: You talked about this in the last, which also, I don't know if you noticed, but people were like, for those listening, having like a identity crisis every four years or something.
Speaker: And you're like, I don't know, that could just be me.
Speaker: And people in the audience, when you were talking about the identity crisis, like so many people were nodding their heads.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, you just struck a chord.
Speaker: You just resonated with a lot of people.
Speaker: which I really appreciated about when you led Remnant.
Speaker: I just, I found you to be a very relatable, very approachable.
Speaker: And what would you, what would you, what title would you give yourself?
Speaker: Like, is it leader?
Speaker: Is it preacher?
Speaker: So Remnant, both Jason McKibben, who we started the church together, both him and I are like
Speaker: lead pastors.
Speaker: Okay, so lead pastors.
Speaker: So yeah, I found you to be an incredibly approachable, relatable, really palatable.
Speaker: Because I do think there are some lead pastors or pastors or preachers or whatever that are really, like, I'm like, I don't, you're
Speaker: voice is bringing and just like your energy and the way that you're talking.
Speaker: And there's a lot of, I feel like you this and you that, and you can do this and you, and I felt like you spoke a lot from a place of I, and I really resonate with that kind of stuff because if somebody is up there telling me like, you're going to feel this, you're going to experience that.
Speaker: What I'm hearing, I'm like, no, you don't know that.
Speaker: Please don't project your experience onto me or tell me what I'm going to feel.
Speaker: And so when you were able to just like share your own stories, I really resonated with it.
Speaker: And I think that's a powerful thing because I don't think I have to be up here saying like telling someone you're going to feel this and you're going to experience that.
Speaker: I can share my story and they can choose to find themselves in my story or not.
Speaker: And that allowed to me, that feels like it allows an opportunity of understanding.
Speaker: grace and flow and authenticity like yeah those listening like might resonate with it or they might not and i just feel like it's much more of an offering of like take what resonates leave what doesn't so yeah i i just yeah i really enjoyed you speaking yeah okay so the 30 now you're over 30. yeah and 30 was the first time that i've ever experienced like any depression or anxiety
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: So at the same time that I was going through that, I realized that this obviously has never been a struggle for me.
Speaker: And I'm like, I'm grateful for that because I know that that's not the case for a lot of people.
Speaker: And I also knew that it was going to come to an end at some point.
Speaker: Right, because I've never experienced it before.
Speaker: So I knew that it wasn't something that for whatever reason may be right, just like emotionally, mentally, physically, it was something that I didn't struggle with before.
Speaker: So I had the privilege of knowing that at some point it was going to end.
Speaker: Oh, my God.
Speaker: It was like, I think I also just didn't want it to stay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Not many do.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I know that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But then I, but then I was like very sensitive cause I knew people who that's just their life and they've been able to like survive it and figure out what they needed to survive.
Speaker: But for me, like I did have that realization that I haven't dealt with this before.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: it allowed me to like figure out why I was feeling this way because I was like, this is obviously coming from somewhere.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: And, but also like I started going through that, like at 30 something.
Speaker: So there is like, I don't know when you felt that 24.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So even at 24 years, so, you know, and like, obviously younger kids that go through it, it's like, they haven't had 30 years to maybe pick up certain habits or to know certain things.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: Yeah, it was a big realization that I knew it wasn't gonna last forever.
Speaker: And I also went through that later in life too.
Speaker: And then I remember sharing that with my sister and then she gave me this book called My Name Is Hope by John Mark Palmer.
Speaker: And it talks about anxiety and depression.
Speaker: It's from his point of view of him struggling with it.
Speaker: And the whole book is that
Speaker: it's a Christian, kind of like a Christian self-health book, was that everyone feels this way.
Speaker: It doesn't really matter if you know God or not.
Speaker: Like, you're still a human being.
Speaker: You're still experiencing life, you know?
Speaker: there is just things that you're going to go through.
Speaker: And just because you may know the God of the Bible or you may follow Christianity or how this faith doesn't mean that you're immune to all these things.
Speaker: And so he went through it and he said, regardless of where you're at, the truth is, is that people who struggle with anxiety and depression have a lack of hope.
Speaker: And so the,
Speaker: title of the book, My Name Was Hope, was that you can find hope in God.
Speaker: That's one of his names.
Speaker: That's one of the ways that he is identified as.
Speaker: That reminds me of this thing.
Speaker: Okay, there's been a lot of, I'm reading a lot of books.
Speaker: I've been reading a lot of books.
Speaker: One of the ones that I just read was Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution by Rainn Wilson, which by the way, which by the way, I tagged them in my story last night and they reposted it.
Speaker: And I was like, you're telling me there's a possibility that Rainn Wilson, Dwight, is seeing my little, anyway, that was like almost too much for me.
Speaker: Did you take a screenshot?
Speaker: No, no, I could.
Speaker: I could.
Speaker: It's still up there.
Speaker: But so when you were talking about hope, that has been something that's been popping up a lot in any book that I've been reading.
Speaker: It's been, there's been such a focus on community, belief, hope, serving something other than ourselves.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: It could be religious figure.
Speaker: It also could be just community.
Speaker: And I think there's some, there's really something to that.
Speaker: And this is, so this is from soul boom.
Speaker: And it says study after study shows that people who belong to a strong religious community often cite higher levels of personal contentment and inner peace.
Speaker: They live longer and are also more civically engaged.
Speaker: They're less depressed and less anxious.
Speaker: They give more to charity and get this smile and laugh more.
Speaker: I'll stop with that there.
Speaker: But the joy and the peace and the happiness that can be found often in religious communities and that level of hope
Speaker: that you were talking about, I think is fostered so often in religious communities and not really outside of it.
Speaker: I mean, I don't really, like for me personally, I would consider, I've considered myself a spiritual person for a while and a little woo woo, like your girl loves a tarot reading.
Speaker: I like acupuncture, Reiki, you know, whatever it might be.
Speaker: And with, with all that being said, I wouldn't say that I prioritize or really facilitate or even thought about hope that often.
Speaker: and how, what a precious resource hope is and something that I'm like, how, how is that something that I haven't tapped into more?
Speaker: And like, what, which sister gave you the book to read?
Speaker: Katrina.
Speaker: Oh, Katrina.
Speaker: Shout out Katrina.
Speaker: Like, of course she did.
Speaker: I like, what a perfect thing to offer you in that moment.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, and did it, did it help?
Speaker: It helped because that book
Speaker: towards the end of it was like, you gotta dig deeper and you need to figure out the route and it's not gonna be easy.
Speaker: Like he was just very honest.
Speaker: And I was like, okay, let's figure this out.
Speaker: Why am I feeling this way now?
Speaker: Why do I feel like I'm not like maybe good enough?
Speaker: Why do I feel like nothing really matters?
Speaker: And I realized that that was coming from
Speaker: some betrayal that I felt and just having to get over that.
Speaker: And so I was going through all that stuff.
Speaker: And I think that because I don't like naturally just always go to anger, like instead of me getting angry about how I was treated, that anger turned and showed itself
Speaker: like in some anxiety and depression.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: So then I realized that I was actually just really angry because I was hurt.
Speaker: What an unearthing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then also in that book, it's like once you figure out the root of what that is, and for me, it was feeling like betrayal, right?
Speaker: That instead of me going to anger, I went the opposite way, you know, and just like
Speaker: kept everything in.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then that's bad.
Speaker: It's in itself.
Speaker: Like sometimes it is good to express yourself and not just leave it in there because it can turn to all these other things.
Speaker: And it said, if whatever you're going through at the very end of the book was just forgive and leave it there and
Speaker: move forward right like you can't control everything you can't do everything you can't fix everything things aren't going to be the way that they used to be but there are things that you can just leave behind i remember like part of that book is like it is if it's forgiveness then just forgive that person and move forward
Speaker: And you don't have to tell them that.
Speaker: You don't have to bring it up.
Speaker: You don't have to be awkward about it, right?
Speaker: Like, you don't have to do that at all.
Speaker: Like, this is for you, not for them.
Speaker: Because they probably don't care.
Speaker: Because they moved on with their lives, you know?
Speaker: And now you're holding it back, right?
Speaker: And so I remember I was like, okay, I'm going to do that.
Speaker: Like, I'm just going to forgive those that I felt like betrayed me.
Speaker: And just not allow...
Speaker: it to internalize as all these other things because I'm tired of it.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And at that moment, I'm not kidding at all.
Speaker: I remember I was like, okay, I'm going to do that.
Speaker: And like inwardly, I was like, I forgive that.
Speaker: I'm not going to allow what someone else did to affect me anymore in these ways.
Speaker: And then that individual walked into the place that I was at.
Speaker: No!
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And for the first time in, I don't know how long, like I was genuinely excited and happy to see that person.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: It's like, it's crazy.
Speaker: But it's also not that.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: That is wild.
Speaker: And I, so for people listening, I can imagine that.
Speaker: I had not experienced this before in my life, a true forgiveness until maybe a year or so ago.
Speaker: I had heard about it.
Speaker: I'd heard about forgiveness or forgive people.
Speaker: It just burdens you.
Speaker: It doesn't burden them, whatever.
Speaker: But there was a specific individual in my life who I felt so wronged by and I really wanted an apology from them.
Speaker: And it just finally clicked one day that I was never going to get that apology and maybe I would.
Speaker: Maybe I would.
Speaker: I shouldn't.
Speaker: I want to just say I never will.
Speaker: But I didn't want to keep holding out that that was the key that was going to help me feel better.
Speaker: I needed to find that solace on my own.
Speaker: And that was when I was able to really lean into forgiveness and think, contemplate like,
Speaker: what, how would it feel for me to forgive this person?
Speaker: But, but it sounds great in theory, like, okay, forgive the person, but then putting it into practice.
Speaker: I was like, how do I even do that?
Speaker: And one thing that helped me is whenever I would think of that person and I would go on this inner narrative of like, they're, they wronged me, they're mean, they're this, they're that, or whatever.
Speaker: I would
Speaker: switch my thought to something else.
Speaker: It wasn't necessarily that I would think about positive things that they've done, but I would switch the thought to something positive.
Speaker: And through that, I really feel like I was able to rewire my brain in some way to not hold on to this anger
Speaker: and actually be able to forgive this person, that took me a while.
Speaker: It took me a few months at least.
Speaker: It sounds like yours was more instantaneous, especially because the person literally walked in.
Speaker: And then you were like, oh, I actually feel like welcomed to see you.
Speaker: So was yours an immediate forgiveness?
Speaker: It was.
Speaker: And this is the thing too, is that I have experienced forgiveness in my own life.
Speaker: And I would like, obviously talk about it, you know, like it was not,
Speaker: a word or an action that I was like, not at some point like in my weekly or, you know, because I'm like teaching to like the word of God.
Speaker: And just that just at that moment became real.
Speaker: It's like what I knew or even what I told other people to do.
Speaker: Now I'm being challenged to do the same thing.
Speaker: there's to bring like a little bit more faith in Jesus.
Speaker: There's a verse that says you should forgive because you've been forgiven much too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I realized like that, okay, like I haven't obviously treated people the right way and maybe uneven knowingly, right.
Speaker: Treat people the wrong way.
Speaker: Like I understood that I would want people to forgive me for the wrongs that I've done.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: since I have forgiveness and I have received forgiveness and other people have forgiven me, like who am I, if I can, to forgive someone else?
Speaker: So it was like, I'm just going to do it.
Speaker: You saw that potential version of you and you were like, yeah, I choose that.
Speaker: So as we're talking about religion and spirituality, I, there's so much about religion.
Speaker: Well, there's so much.
Speaker: I mean, there's not even enough time period, but there's like, there's a lot of religion that I really enjoy.
Speaker: We've talked about grit on a separate, we haven't talked about it on this podcast, but we've talked about grit.
Speaker: Right now we've talked about forgiveness.
Speaker: We've talked about community.
Speaker: We've talked about hope.
Speaker: We've talked about this overflowing feeling, overwhelming, loving, joyous feeling.
Speaker: So there's a lot about religion that I really...
Speaker: admire and also very much aligns with a lot of my values.
Speaker: And I don't have a lot of values.
Speaker: There's a saying like, if you have a lot of values and you have none, or if you have a lot of priorities and you have none.
Speaker: If you care about everything, you really care about nothing.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker: So I do, integrity and authenticity are two of my core values, but community is also another really big one.
Speaker: And I don't know why I have this sticking point
Speaker: with religion.
Speaker: So like I, even now thinking of telling somebody that I go to a Christian church, I'd be like, that doesn't feel like me, but I don't know where that, where to put all this want, which is why I just keep coming back to remnant because I'm like, at least I have a place where I can,
Speaker: I have a safe space to suss this out a bit more and see and analyze it a bit.
Speaker: Like what lands with me, what doesn't land with me.
Speaker: And we, I shared this with you, you know, a few things at the first remnant that I was like, this kind of, I felt a little weird about this or, you know, and I don't want that to be ambiguous because I don't want people listening to this be like, what happened at remnant?
Speaker: So I'm going to, I'm going to name my specific, my specific example I had, which was, there was a group of young women in front of me.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: who are worshiping and, you know, they have their palms up and they were listening to music and swaying with it and everything.
Speaker: And there were two sides of me.
Speaker: One was thinking, what a beautiful thing that they are in a space where they feel comfortable and they can literally worship and they're safe to do so.
Speaker: And they're supported to do so.
Speaker: And I was like, that's such a beautiful thing.
Speaker: And on the second side of it, which I already told you, is it felt a bit like brainwashing.
Speaker: Like it was these young women.
Speaker: And I do definitely feel that I was putting too much of my own lived experience onto them and projecting because I think I felt a little bit of that when I was going to Young Life camps and I would be...
Speaker: singing these songs and talking about this person, like spilling their blood for me.
Speaker: And like, I didn't really know what I was singing.
Speaker: I just knew that I enjoyed the people that I was around and the feeling that I felt.
Speaker: And so when I was sharing that with you, I'd love for you to talk.
Speaker: This is the phone conversation.
Speaker: I was like, we can't keep having this conversation because it all has to be on the podcast.
Speaker: But you, you talked about
Speaker: Zeal.
Speaker: Zeal.
Speaker: Zeal was the word.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Zeal was the word or passion.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that zeal without knowledge or passion without knowledge, like it's, it's dead.
Speaker: It's not going to get anywhere.
Speaker: Which is what I was using synonymously a bit with like brainwashing where it's like, if it's zeal without education, that's, that was what brought you, I didn't know that word.
Speaker: I didn't know zeal.
Speaker: And what is it exactly?
Speaker: It's just like zeal, passion, enthusiasm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: All that, you know?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so I think that's obviously what you saw, right?
Speaker: It's just this like openness, passion, and then express to the body.
Speaker: So I'm going to lift my hands up, my paws up.
Speaker: And that's a very big posture because when you do that, you're like exposing the rest of yourself, right?
Speaker: And so I think that's why sometimes when you look at worship, it's like, well, because people's bodies are actually like
Speaker: physically a posture of just being open and vulnerable, right?
Speaker: They're not like in a tuck down like ready for the plane to like crash, right?
Speaker: Protect the viral like organs or anything.
Speaker: Yeah, and usually eyes are closed too.
Speaker: So
Speaker: Yeah, so I said that in that phone conversation, that was the scripture that I remember just coming to my mind was that zeal without knowledge is just kind of useless because it doesn't go anywhere.
Speaker: And that's like something that I never want to do.
Speaker: I don't want the church and even the church that I'm at now and the youth group that I run for students to come in and young people to come in or anyone really, and just have all these emotional responses and not realizing where those are coming from.
Speaker: And so, and I remember I just started reading this book called Practicing the Way by the same author of My Name is Hope.
Speaker: And we talked about this a little bit of that.
Speaker: The word Christian is like used like three times.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: in the whole of the bible but disciple or apprentice or student is used like over 250 times and how when you're looking at scripture and how we should live our lives it is of someone who's a student an apprentice someone who is choosing to have knowledge of how to live a life that god has asked him to live and
Speaker: those girls, I feel like I know some of them who you were talking about.
Speaker: And it's like, how much more, I guess, like precious is worship when it's not just based off of zeal, but you're doing it because of the knowledge and experiences that you've had.
Speaker: I think so much.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that just depends on the individual thing too.
Speaker: Like we come like to church, obviously as a community and to be assembled together, which,
Speaker: is what is like needed, right?
Speaker: And it's like how people have done church for decades, centuries now.
Speaker: But a lot of, or should be of what being a Christian is, it's not just like what you're doing on Sunday morning and raising your hands, but like what you're doing every single day to like live that life, to acknowledge that life, to study, you know, and to grow in, you know,
Speaker: what it means to be living your life the way that Jesus has lived it.
Speaker: So that's like, I, we don't want just zeal, right?
Speaker: Like we just don't want passion.
Speaker: It's good.
Speaker: And it's good to have those moments and it's good maybe even to start.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But it's like, you know, you want that to lead to somewhere and hopefully that leads to more knowledge of why you feel the way that you're feeling.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I love that you prioritize that because I think even for me, like if I put myself in, in,
Speaker: younger shoes, like 17 year olds or whatever.
Speaker: I remember being that age and I was very impressionable.
Speaker: I was also lost quite a few times.
Speaker: And so I was looking for answers and I feel like going to a church that is,
Speaker: less passionate about, okay, let me provide you with the education.
Speaker: Let me, let me give you the history of this.
Speaker: And like, you can make your own decision.
Speaker: And if you're excited by it, that's great.
Speaker: And I'm here to help and foster that.
Speaker: But it's not something of like, not once would I feel you would take advantage of somebody who's younger and impressionable and looking for answers to be like, Oh, the answer is God.
Speaker: It's like, I can show you what I think your approach more so is like,
Speaker: I can show you my experience.
Speaker: I can tell you my history with this.
Speaker: I can fully tell you why I choose to put my faith and love in God and in Jesus.
Speaker: And I can share stories if you want, but I'm not going to come to you and say, this is the way and this is who you have to believe.
Speaker: I feel like you have this openness that is, what is it?
Speaker: It's like you attract more flies with sugar than vinegar.
Speaker: I think it's more of like,
Speaker: everyone is on their own individual, like spiritual journey, trying to figure out who God is.
Speaker: People who are coming to like a Christian non-national church.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, who's Jesus?
Speaker: And I think I just understand and probably just working obviously with young people for like 20 years now, it's like, it's okay to ask these questions.
Speaker: So let's talk about them.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Let me like, let's,
Speaker: hang out, let's go for a walk.
Speaker: Let's, let me give you resources, like where you're at, because everyone's going to come with different, I don't know, just there.
Speaker: Everyone's just so unique.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And like everyone has their own personal thing and trying to figure it out.
Speaker: And it's like, we just want to be a resource to helping you figure that out when it comes to scripture, like when it comes to God, when it comes to Jesus and what that looks like for you and your life.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I guess like in a nutshell or whatever, I don't know.
Speaker: It's like, come and we can do this together if you want to.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's what it is.
Speaker: And for me, I, I, oh, hi.
Speaker: For me, I, I so appreciate, well, I mean, I appreciate our friendship no matter what.
Speaker: I've got 11 plus years, Starbucks days, you know.
Speaker: The good Starbucks days.
Speaker: The good Starbucks days.
Speaker: Yeah, it's kind of wild to me that with how long we've known each other, we don't really talk about religion that much.
Speaker: I wouldn't even say that's really brought up in our conversations on a day-to-day or when we see each other.
Speaker: But I know that
Speaker: I feel so thankful to have you as this resource in that way of my during this journey to religion for me, because I know that I can come to you and say things like, I don't know, it kind of felt like the girls were being brainwashed.
Speaker: They're not.
Speaker: I know that they're not.
Speaker: And but but I still have that feeling and I want to be able to express it.
Speaker: and share that so that I can talk through it and understand that a little bit more and having you, you know, where I can literally talk to you about, I'm like, I think this is pretty weird.
Speaker: Like, I don't want to talk about Jesus's blood and like, I like, like weirds me out.
Speaker: I can talk to you about those types of things.
Speaker: And not once have I ever felt that you're like, well,
Speaker: you shouldn't feel weird about it because he died for you.
Speaker: There's never any ounce of judgment or frustration.
Speaker: It's like, okay, yeah, I can see that that might be a little weird.
Speaker: Here's my experience with it.
Speaker: I'm just so glad you're in the position.
Speaker: It's you and that you're in the position that you're in with this church because, yeah, I think you're really important.
Speaker: To be fair, it can feel I get that too.
Speaker: It's like because
Speaker: It's, we're talking about things like outside of like our physical or what we know, you know, into like spiritual things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so there is this level of like, okay, we're talking or expressing or being asked to do things or go places that are like outside of what we see or know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, but it is, I mean, it's spiritual and spiritual.
Speaker: Because it's spiritual.
Speaker: This is a total different conversation.
Speaker: But the one that I was having with Bree, with the body work and breath work and energy work, we were talking about a very similar thing.
Speaker: How there is a sense of hope and belief and faith that goes into this.
Speaker: Because while there's some things you can measure of energy and whatnot, a lot of it is something that you just feel and you put your belief in.
Speaker: And, and for me, the reason that I even was open to body work or energy work is because I just thought, well, why not?
Speaker: Like, I get that I can't necessarily prove some things, but if I feel different and if I feel a shift and I feel, if I feel more connected to myself and others around me, why would I need something that can prove that?
Speaker: Like, I can feel that that's the proof that I need or that I would possibly want.
Speaker: And if it's just helping me live this more aligned, beautiful, harmonious life, like, why wouldn't I just put my faith in that?
Speaker: And I think something similar with religion where it's like, I like that I can't just access Jesus and I can't just access God or any religious figure.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: I can't do that, that it gives me this opportunity to put in faith and hope and belief.
Speaker: That's the only, like, I can't, if I could just see Jesus, like how is that strengthening my faith, hope, belief?
Speaker: That's just justifying something that I've been told.
Speaker: I like the accountability that comes with religion.
Speaker: It's a lot of the looking inward and a lot of the, did I have a role in this?
Speaker: Is there something that I can look into instead of just outwardly saying like external things are the problem.
Speaker: There might be a lot of internal problems going on.
Speaker: And then if I'm constantly looking externally, I'm not gonna solve anything.
Speaker: I'm just gonna live this really confused life.
Speaker: And I think a very angry life versus
Speaker: looking inward and i like that religion offers that sort of tough love ability so we're at 30 and i think just finishing out the timeline of from reading that book having that that moment of forgiveness and now to the age where you're at like can you share more about that timeline it was more of just like doing you know just moving forward and
Speaker: Figuring out, okay, well, now I have this knowledge or some of it.
Speaker: Like, I always feel like I'm still, like, scratching the surface, though, too.
Speaker: But just being in church, working in church, seeing, like, the do's and the don'ts or things that I would want to change or not change.
Speaker: Like, I got to...
Speaker: like a place there's a many many reasons why we wanted to start a church in Tucson one of there's so many I know one of those one of those reasons was that
Speaker: I just wanted to give more and I was okay if that was going to take more of me.
Speaker: I came to a place and I know the other, like Jason and his wife and like we have like 30 volunteers, right?
Speaker: Which is insane.
Speaker: And it was like, we just all want more and we want to offer people more than necessarily just this age group.
Speaker: You know, like the people that we love, the people that are outside of high school, people in Tucson, right?
Speaker: Like we just want to offer more.
Speaker: And we all knew that that was going to take more of us and more sacrifice and grit or giving, you know, all the words that you're using.
Speaker: And it was like, well, yeah, because this is what we all felt led to do or called to do.
Speaker: it was like, it was a dream, right?
Speaker: It was like a desire.
Speaker: It was like a calling of like, we just want to do this.
Speaker: And that's like how I've been feeling the last three, four years of like, I want to do more and I'm okay with it taking more of me because it's not about me.
Speaker: It's about the people around me.
Speaker: And so I'm just going to move forward with that.
Speaker: Another book that I was reading years ago,
Speaker: talked about dreams.
Speaker: And again, it's like a Christian self-help kind of book.
Speaker: But it said, if your dreams don't involve other people, then your dreams aren't probably God's dreams for you.
Speaker: And I was like, okay, this is obviously going to be for other people, not for myself.
Speaker: And so now I feel like I'm at a point where like, and I think we talked about this on the phone too, where like so many people aren't there that are in some type of like
Speaker: authority or leadership.
Speaker: And like being a pastor is being a servant to people.
Speaker: And so I'm just trying to do that as much as possible.
Speaker: I know the people that are volunteering at the church and Jason, his wife and Elijah, you know,
Speaker: That's like all of ours, like how can we just give of ourselves to the people who are coming through these doors?
Speaker: And like, what does that look like?
Speaker: Because we know that what we are feeling led to do is bigger than ourselves.
Speaker: It's like for the people.
Speaker: And so we're going to put the grit and the sacrifice and the time and energy into that because that's what we're supposed to do as like followers.
Speaker: of god is to be servants yeah and because he was himself so you see jesus washing feet right you see jesus caring for the poor you see jesus he his whole life was other centered and so it was just like okay i know this and i know it noted now after being
Speaker: in the faith for like 20 something years.
Speaker: And so what's the next step of going deeper into that?
Speaker: And the next step for us was to start a church.
Speaker: And so for there's people listening, you probably know your like resume of working within a church, but do you want to just give like a quick synopsis?
Speaker: You're not just like some random guy who's like, Oh, we need to leave faster.
Speaker: So I have, I'm pursuing in like,
Speaker: going to, I guess, when it comes to education, right?
Speaker: Like that is a goal of mine is to have a degree in like theology and this stuff, right?
Speaker: To continue on in that way.
Speaker: But I started working at the church as an intern when I was 18 years, 19 years old.
Speaker: And then five years later, I was full time.
Speaker: But during those five years, the recession happened.
Speaker: This is way back in like early 2000s.
Speaker: There's people getting laid off or people that were getting like pay cuts and stuff like that, you know, like at the church and people making less and less and less because everyone was making less and less and less.
Speaker: And so I wasn't like at a place to like
Speaker: asked for a full-time position.
Speaker: And then my pastor and the one who I worked closely with, his son passed away from his second adult open heart surgery.
Speaker: And so then that was happening at the same time.
Speaker: So it was just like this span of maybe two or three years where it just didn't seem
Speaker: right or there was an opportunity for me to be like hey can I do this full-time but then after everything kind of settled down I was like went to my senior pastors and was just like hey I'm leaving you know because I know the recession happened I know that you know this you know the pastor I was working with lost his son everything but like I need to move forward and
Speaker: like after five years if you're not going to hire me you're probably not going to hire me right and i was getting paid as an intern too when i was like that's when i was working at starbucks and doing all that right and then they're like no like we want to and so then i just have worked there ever since and that's because some people might not know how old you are but so from 19 to to 30
Speaker: Yeah, I always forget.
Speaker: I'm like, I feel like we're always the same age, but you're two years older.
Speaker: That's just the millennial thing, though, too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's a lot of unpackage there, too.
Speaker: Well, okay, this is a complete side note about my walk today.
Speaker: I saw at somebody's yard, it said, like, class of 2024, and it took me a second, and I said, literally, I go, oh, my gosh, that's crazy.
Speaker: It's been seven years since I graduated.
Speaker: I was like, 17. 17.
Speaker: Like, I couldn't catch my friend.
Speaker: I was like, wait a second, wait a second.
Speaker: Like, almost a full-grown adult between me and when I graduated.
Speaker: Like, what?
Speaker: It's crazy.
Speaker: And then COVID just messed it up even more.
Speaker: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But, yeah, so that's my experience is that I've been at the church for, since I was 19 years old.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And to, like, finish it off, what are your goals for Remnant?
Speaker: That it's like, Jason spoke about this.
Speaker: It's like, we had like, we need to get from point A to B. And then we like got to point B and we like had our first service.
Speaker: And so like, now we're like, what's our next A to B?
Speaker: What's our next A to B?
Speaker: What's our next A to B?
Speaker: And it's all very new too.
Speaker: And like, we're in a school, so we're working with that.
Speaker: you know, we are trying to like have, and we do, you know, like a children's ministry.
Speaker: There's just a lot that goes into it.
Speaker: And I would say like, obviously in a lot of ways, we're trying to figure that out still.
Speaker: But the goal is, I'm talking about like, what can we do here?
Speaker: What can we do there?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Like all the creative stuff and everything that like my mind goes to, but is,
Speaker: to provide a space where people are doing things in an excellent way.
Speaker: And one of those reasons, and I was listening to that podcast that you weren't like a fan of.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: But they brought on a guest
Speaker: And the guest said that, you know, if you are, because he started a church too, the guest, and spoke about, listen, if you feel like you have something to give, people have to trust you.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: First of all.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, you're not just going to listen to anyone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: One of the things that he said is that, well, trust, especially when you're starting a church, a lot of time is built on excellence.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so if you're doing things in an excellent way, then people are going to trust you or start to build that trust.
Speaker: And I feel like that's where we're at right now.
Speaker: It's like, how can we do things in an excellent way to not just to show God to people, but to build that trust that you can come here, right?
Speaker: And like,
Speaker: You're going to be heard.
Speaker: You're going to be taught.
Speaker: You're going to have an opportunity to experience God.
Speaker: You're going to have an opportunity to talk about God after or know that there's opportunities for you to do that.
Speaker: So it's like right now for Remit, it's like how...
Speaker: are we going to do things in an excellent way because we're just starting off so that when people come in they see that they can take a step maybe forward of where they're at with god and feel comfortable enough to do that because so much thought and excellence has been put into you coming here and being
Speaker: open or being in a place where like you can start that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: It does make sense.
Speaker: And I also was going to say that I feel that like even when, even on the first day, I, there's so many small touches, like,
Speaker: There is space for children to go and not just all children.
Speaker: It's literally by age group, which was so impressive to me, even just that detail alone.
Speaker: There were donuts, there's coffee, not donuts every time, just so we're clear, just like set the expectation, but you know, for the grand opening.
Speaker: But there's coffee, yeah, but there's Presta coffee every week.
Speaker: Shout out Nathan.
Speaker: Yeah, thanks Nathan.
Speaker: And, you know, like the band is just so crazy talented.
Speaker: Both times that I've gone, I've just been in awe.
Speaker: The projector with all, you know, whether it's the scripture or a quote or the...
Speaker: the lyrics when during worship that's up and running there's a fog machine there's the lighting is is so cool to me i really like when during worship it's darker and you could just kind of like i don't know it feels a little bit more private and i i really enjoy that that's like a hard balance because like we want it loud enough where like you
Speaker: feel like you're not hearing the person next to you.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But, and then also not quiet enough.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That you feel like you can't.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's all, but that's why I didn't mean to.
Speaker: I think it's a really nice balance because
Speaker: Well, the first time I came, I was like, oh my gosh, my ears.
Speaker: Like I actually, but I have really sensitive ears anyway.
Speaker: So I was like, oh my gosh, it's loud.
Speaker: But I did notice that it's like, you were able, people were able to just like really sing.
Speaker: And then when the band would get quieter towards the end to like allow other people to be heard, everyone was, it was, you could just tell so many people were singing.
Speaker: And that was a really moving thing too.
Speaker: And I also, I sang, I sang the, give me a second.
Speaker: No, I don't think of it.
Speaker: Don't say it.
Speaker: I want to, I want to remember this one.
Speaker: I sought the Lord and he heard.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cause I, and then it's, so the lyrics are, I sought the Lord and he heard and he answered.
Speaker: And then it goes into, that's why I trust him.
Speaker: And I really resonated with that entire thing.
Speaker: Like it just, even as a person, as a friend, it makes me emotional thinking about if somebody seeks me and I heard them,
Speaker: And I answered them.
Speaker: That's how I'm earning that trust with them.
Speaker: That is a really beautiful thing to me.
Speaker: And so those lyrics really spoke to me.
Speaker: And when it came on, I was like, I think I know this song.
Speaker: And then I got to the end and I was like, I know this.
Speaker: So I sang that and that felt really nice to contribute in that way.
Speaker: But you can just tell.
Speaker: I don't know if it's because I've been in hospitality and I've worked events and all that kind of stuff, but there's a lot of detail that goes into it.
Speaker: And you guys have your...
Speaker: pamphlets ready to go.
Speaker: You've got the pens out, you've got security, you've got it just photos.
Speaker: Yeah, it's you can I personally can tell that there's a lot of thought and care that's being poured into it.
Speaker: And how that reflects for me as somebody who attends is that I'm like, if you're pouring this much into
Speaker: us potentially people potentially showing up to me, it's like very clear that it's coming from a place of service, like to put all of that on and not be able to like, I'm not paying each time that I go there, obviously you can give donations and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: But like,
Speaker: It is of service.
Speaker: It's just being created for me, for others, for us to go.
Speaker: And I can really feel that.
Speaker: And I can absolutely say that my trust with Remnant, my trust with you has always been.
Speaker: I trust you no matter.
Speaker: I fully trust you.
Speaker: But Remnant is an extension.
Speaker: It's not just you, like we talked about.
Speaker: There's so many other people in it.
Speaker: But I can say that Remnant is absolutely building my trust each time.
Speaker: As soon as I walked through, I felt welcomed.
Speaker: I felt I was in a safe space and I felt that it was coming from a place of service.
Speaker: And it's just been incrementally or incrementally.
Speaker: Is that how you say it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's just been increasing.
Speaker: Well, I think too, because like, I understand that we're asking people for a lot and people are giving up their time too.
Speaker: So it's like, yeah, you may get there like at 10 o'clock, but it's like, it's a 10 o'clock
Speaker: for an hour and 20 minutes on your Sunday after you've worked a whole week, when you have your own life, your own things.
Speaker: But it's not that, it's like you're setting your alarm at 9.30.
Speaker: You're getting up, you're getting ready, you're driving there.
Speaker: It's like, it's an hour and a half, but it's also a lot that you're asking people to do, especially to walk into a space and
Speaker: asking them to trust you with that time, you know, and the words that you're saying or the things that you're singing about.
Speaker: And so I'm like, we just like can't take advantage of that ever.
Speaker: It's like, we don't want to waste people's time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: And so we want to present the best that we can for multiple reasons.
Speaker: But for right now, it's like to just build trust.
Speaker: I feel that.
Speaker: I'm trying to not
Speaker: like say this is our five year plan, this is our 10 year plan and stuff like that.
Speaker: I really just want to see where it goes and to not get ahead of myself, not to get ahead of God, not to jump into something that like I'm not prepared for.
Speaker: So that is like,
Speaker: my expectations but also like one of my fears i want it to be big right and i want it so that like so we can reach more people or we can serve more people and be there for more people who you know are trying to find god in their life you know or come back to god or whatever it may be for them and there's a verse that says like if you're faithful with the little things then you're going to be faithful with the big things
Speaker: it may not seem little because there's like 200 people and then like 120 the last week and there's 30 kids and you know it's a it is it's like this is where we're at right now so let's just be faithful with this yeah and then if god chooses to take it further
Speaker: we're going to be ready for it because we were faithful with the little things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we knew how to handle the little things.
Speaker: And I think that also speaks to, I like when you said that you don't want to plan ahead of God.
Speaker: I think that as a bit, if I were running a business, I would want to be really clear about what my values are, what my mission is.
Speaker: So that it's not necessarily, oh, I have this three-year goal, this five-year goal, or whatever it is.
Speaker: It's more of like, as long as I'm sticking with my mission, as long as I'm sticking within my values, then that's just where I'm going to move.
Speaker: That's the place that I'm going to move from.
Speaker: So it sounds a little bit like, you know, you got, obviously I don't want it to sound ignorant where people are like, if you don't come up with a plan or if you don't outline your goals, then how are you going to reach them?
Speaker: You know, whatever.
Speaker: And it's like, but goals to me can be so much more than I want to get 50 K. I want to make, I want to make this much amount of money.
Speaker: It's like, I want to feel this way when I wake up.
Speaker: I want to feel this way when I go to bed and I want to serve people in this way.
Speaker: Like those are really more so like.
Speaker: And not lose the mission or.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or the things, the pillars.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like, it's like, it doesn't matter how big anything that you do in life gets or a business or whatever.
Speaker: It's like the moment you lose those things, you just, you kind of lost it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Then what are you doing?
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Because you gave up something.
Speaker: Critter.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, you gave up maybe your integrity or your pillars or your mission and
Speaker: And now what you have, even though it's bigger, it's not what it started out to be.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: So how is that an accomplishment of a goal?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's something that just kind of happened.
Speaker: Well, thanks, Peter.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: We're done with my first podcast.
Speaker: Your first podcast.
Speaker: Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker: If you enjoyed this episode of Where's Our Intern, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker: You can join the conversation by following us on Instagram and TikTok at where'sourinternpod.
Speaker: And last but not least, if you really, really enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend.
Speaker: It would absolutely make our day.
Speaker: Till next time.
