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Why is it so hard for autistic people to find work?
161 Plays22 days ago
Despite growing awareness of autism, around 70–80% of autistic people remain unemployed or underemployed. Why is this still happening, and what needs to change?
In this episode of This Is Autism, host Kerry Heickock is joined by author and autism advocate Charlotte Aldred to discuss the barriers autistic people face when seeking and maintaining employment. Charlotte shares insights from her forthcoming book, Autistic and Unemployed: The Complete Guide to Finding and Keeping a Job, drawing on both extensive research and her personal experience raising a neurodivergent son.
Together they explore:
• Why traditional recruitment processes often disadvantage autistic candidates
• The hidden barriers within job descriptions and interviews
• Practical strategies for autistic job seekers
• The pros and cons of disclosing an autism diagnosis at work
• Workplace adjustments that can make a real difference
• What employers can do to create more inclusive workplaces
Charlotte also shares her family's journey supporting her son into meaningful employment and explains why recognising autistic strengths is key to closing the autism employment gap.
Whether you're autistic, supporting an autistic person, or looking to create a more inclusive workplace, this episode is packed with practical advice and valuable insights.
Listen now and join the conversation.
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Transcript
Value of Neurodivergent Individuals
00:00:10
Speaker
Employers need to appreciate just how valuable neurodivergent people could be to their organisation. So the answer isn't that simple. Everyone's situation is different.
00:00:24
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There was no requirement in those days to provide any support.
Introduction to 'This Is Autism' and Guests
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to This Is Autism, the podcast from the North East Autism Society. My name is Kerry Heickock and I'm the Family Development Manager at the charity.
00:00:38
Speaker
Today we're delighted to be joined by Charlotte Aldred, author of Different or Disabled and the forthcoming employment guide, Autistic and Unemployed. Charlotte draws on her experiences raising a neurodivergent son using approaches that supported him into a happy and independent adult.
00:00:55
Speaker
Through her writing, she offers practical, positive guidance for autistic people and their families. So Charlotte, thank you so much for joining us today. It's lovely to have you here. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself,
Charlotte's Personal Journey with Autism
00:01:06
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Charlotte, for us? First of all, thank you, Kerry, for asking me to join this podcast.
00:01:11
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And welcome to everyone that's listening. I'm the mother of two children, the elder one a neurodivergent son and the younger one a daughter who's now a clinical psychologist.
00:01:23
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After career as a research scientist, I stayed at home for seven years to look after my children. During this time, I studied to become a management accountant. When the children started primary school, I then worked for several years in a variety of companies, ranging in size from small to very large. While the children were their teens, I worked as a freelance project manager, managing financial software implementations in several large organizations.
00:01:52
Speaker
When I retired from paid work, I decided to start writing about autism. I have lived for nearly 27 years in the wonderful North York Moores National Park and in my spare time enjoy seeing friends and family going to concerts, watching films, walking, cycling, growing vegetables and playing my cello.
00:02:14
Speaker
but Brilliant. So you've got you have a lot going on, Charlotte. You've got a very busy life. lovely life. but And the North Yorkshire Moors, what a lovely place to live as Oh, it's fantastic.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yes, I could do with a bit more greenery myself. I'm near the beach, which is nice, but I like the greenery as well.
'Autistic and Unemployed' Overview
00:02:33
Speaker
So, Charlotte, you've done lots and lots, and and obviously you touched on, ah you know, talking about your son there as well, but can you tell us a little bit about your new book, Autistic and Employed? Sure.
00:02:47
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The employment situation of autistic people is shocking. with approximately 70 to 80% unemployed, even in countries where awareness of autism is high.
00:02:58
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Not only do many autistic people find it difficult to obtain and maintain employment, however intelligent or well-educated they are, they also change jobs more frequently, earn less than their peers with equivalent qualifications and experience, work fewer hours than they would like,
00:03:17
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and are engaged in work for which they are overqualified and which underutilizes their knowledge, skills and experience. My book, Autistic and Unemployed, The Complete Guide to Finding and Keeping a Job, will be published this summer by Jessica Kingsley Publishers.
00:03:35
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It is written for all autistic people, whether formally anded identified or self-identified, regardless of their interests, nationality, ethnic background, talents or skills, gender,
00:03:47
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location and the type of work they want. Many of the recommendations are also likely to be helpful for other neurodivergent job seekers if they are having difficulties finding or keeping a job.
00:04:00
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This book should also be really useful to anyone who is trying to help an autistic person find work. This could be family, friends or professionals.
Role of Employers and Governments
00:04:10
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Although employers and governments are largely responsible for the failure to recruit and retain a more neurodiverse workforce, this book is concerned with what autistic candidates can do to help themselves and to increase their chances of employment success.
Book Structure and Guidance
00:04:27
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My book is divided into three parts. Part one, Getting Started, includes a chapter on identifying strengths and skills. It's very important to identify which strengths and skills could be useful to an employer and which would be worth developing and keeping up to date.
00:04:45
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This awareness can provide a welcome boost to a candidate's self-esteem and confidence and make it easier for them to self-advocate and recognise which jobs are likely to suit them.
00:04:57
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Part two is about overcoming workplace barriers. Given the undoubted attributes autistic people can bring to a work situation, why are so many unemployed?
00:05:08
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This is largely due to the fact that the workplace has been designed for non-autistic people. Unfortunately, many of the strengths that made the autistic person such an asset to any organisation can also be perceived as problematic under certain conditions.
00:05:24
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It is important for an autistic person to have a realistic awareness of their differences particularly those that might make it very difficult for them to find and keep a job. Part two has been designed in order to help autistic candidates carry out a detailed assessment of their workplace barriers and then consider how to minimise them using the four steps described below.
00:05:49
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Step one is to identify those workplace barriers that are likely to be the cause of significant difficulties in the workplace. Step two is to understand what workplaces to avoid and what characteristics make an organisation autism friendly and supportive.
00:06:07
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Step three describes how some workplace barriers can be minimised by means of training, coaching, practice, technology and a variety of self-help measures, including in some cases medication.
00:06:21
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However, this is not a suggestion to camouflage any autistic traits. Step four is to consider what workplace adjustments to request from an employer if there are still some unresolved barriers.
00:06:34
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Most people would find these steps very difficult to work through on their own, so it is important that they're willing to ask someone one they trust to carry out these steps with them.
00:06:46
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Part three, the final part of my book, is about looking for work. It includes the pros and cons of self-employment, and described some of the processes involved in looking for a job.
00:06:59
Speaker
Wow, there's a lot there, Charlotte. That is a lot in your book, which sounds amazing. How long did it take you to write it? Was it a long time? Yes. I had several attempts. um got us Got so far and then got totally stuck.
00:07:18
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It just wasn't working out the way I'd planned it just wasn't right and had a telephone call with my sister saying the sort of quandary I was in and she had a really good suggestion and then I was able to go on um yes it took a long time but enjoyable you did mention a little bit this Charlotte when you started talking about your book but I guess what was the main reason that you you wrote this book our son John I mentioned earlier on about our son was born almost 11 weeks early
00:07:49
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in the mid 1970s as an undiagnosed twin. He had a major operation when he weighed just over a kilogram and he remained in hospital for 11 weeks before coming home.
00:08:01
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His childhood was very challenging and these days he'd be identified as autistic, dyspraxic, dyslexic and with ADHD. Although John received a statement of special educational needs when he was seven, there was no requirement in those days to provide any support And to be frank, i don't think any anyone knew what to do.
00:08:21
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With no internet, no support, we had to find our own way to deal with each challenge as it arose. These methods were so successful that our son, who is nearly 50 now, is a happy, fulfilled and independent adult who works in a job which he loves, which stretches him intellectually.
00:08:40
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Unlike many autistic people, he has never been unemployed. I don't believe he would have been in his current position without a great deal of help and advice from his family.
00:08:52
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Our experience was the motivation behind my desire to write this book in order to help the many autistic people fight facing the spectre of long-term un- or underemployment.
00:09:04
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If anyone wants to find out more about our experiences of parenting neurodivergent child, please look at my website, charlotte.org. Alderhead Books, just with no dots, just straight through charlottealderheadbooks.com, where details of my book, Different or Disabled, a positive approach to parenting a child on the autism spectrum can be found.
00:09:26
Speaker
Lovely. Thank you, Charlotte. And we'll definitely share that with all our listeners as well in in more detail where to find more about you. So, and and that's absolutely brilliant to hear your son has never and been unemployed. I think that that's brilliant. And as you said, he probably had a lot of support to to get to that point, I imagine. and I have an autistic brother myself, so i he really struggles. He won't mind me saying, but he really struggles with employment. Yeah. and actually finds it incredibly difficult to get a job now for various reasons. So I kind of do feel exactly where where where you're coming from, where your passions are with this book. and
00:10:00
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So what would you say, what do you think are the main barriers, Charlotte, and for autistic people when they're seeking employment?
Challenges in Recruitment Processes
00:10:06
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The main reason for these difficulties, I feel, is the lack of awareness by employers and recruiters of autistic strengths, which is largely due to the fact that autism is defined only in terms of deficits.
00:10:19
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This lack of understanding means that many employers aren't willing to make the effort or spend the time to make the necessary culture and process changes that are required to make their work environments welcoming to autistic people, even though these changes would benefit all their employees.
00:10:38
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In addition, many organizations simply don't know what to do. The absence of senior leadership, a limited awareness of neurodiversity, entrenched ways of doing things,
00:10:50
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and a failure to involve neurodivergent staff, or contribute to the barriers faced by just autistic people seeking employment. This results in inappropriate recruitment methods and a lack of adjustments for those that are offered a job.
00:11:05
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So for example, recruitment barriers can include websites, career pages and adverts that can discourage autistic candidates from employing apply applying to a job in the first place,
00:11:18
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and interviews that are designed with neurotypical candidates in mind. Websites, career pages and adverts may use phrases that stress fit with the current team culture and emphasize non-essential social skills, even if the role does not demand it.
00:11:35
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Off-putting phrases can include, must be outgoing, confident, determined, competitive, dynamic, a self-starter, a team player, an excellent communicator,
00:11:48
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happy to work in a fast-paced environment, must thrive under pressure and must possess great interpersonal skills. They may focus on rigid, unnecessary or formal qualifications such as advanced degrees, lengthy lists of experiences or personality traits rather than recognise non-traditional backgrounds and skills, alternative qualifications, transferable skills and experiences such as freelance, voluntary or personal projects.
00:12:18
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They may include vague descriptions and ambiguous instructions rather than clear job descriptions which focus on essential skills that clearly outline all job responsibilities, provide a clear description of daily tasks and what is expected, and provide a description of the work environment and the team the candidate will be working with.
00:12:39
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So all these things will put people off applying. But if they do apply for a job, there's still many reasons why interviews are a major barrier. They select people that are good at interviewing rather than the best individuals for the job.
00:12:54
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They often reward confidence, charisma, social skills, quick thinking rather than the skills actually ri required for the job.
00:13:05
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Recruiters assess traits like eye contact, tone of voice, body language, small talk, rapport building or whether a candidate fits in, regardless of whether these attributes are actually needed for the vacant role.
00:13:19
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Autistic applicants may well strut struggle to sell themselves and are often unable to demonstrate what they're capable of. Interviews can also be difficult for those with sensory so sensitivities, as they may cause sensory overload, which can increase anxiety.
00:13:37
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Unfortunately, when a person becomes stressed, they become even more sensitive to their sensory environment, making it even harder to focus, remember key points or communicate clearly.
00:13:48
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unfamiliar, overstimulating environments, face-to-face proximity with strangers or a group of interviewers, bright lights, noisy waiting rooms, background noise or interruptions can all cause difficulties.
00:14:03
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Autistic people may have increased difficulties with executive function abilities when they are very anxious, as in an interview, paying attention, coping with change, working short-term memory,
00:14:15
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Organising, planning, sequencing, prioritising, time management, initiating actions, self-monitoring, regulation can all be affected. If the autistic person is offered a job, poor management and a lack of workplace adjustments may make it very difficult for them to make the most of their talents and stay in the job.
00:14:34
Speaker
Depressing, isn't it? it Well, it is depressing, yeah. And it was really interesting how you broke that down. So even, you know, the the barriers from even applying for a job, and it's almost like you've got to get through all these hurdles to actually get to the point where you're employed, and then the barriers start again, don't they?
00:14:49
Speaker
So it's, yeah, it is depressing. I terrible. Yeah. So I think what we'll do is everybody, we'll take a little break. And when we come back, we're going ask Charlotte about her tips for supporting autistic people who might be looking for work.
00:15:06
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So we shall see you all very soon. Thank you.
00:15:13
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Hi, while we're on a quick break, I thought I'd tell you a little bit more about the Family Development Service here at the North East Autism Society. The Family Development Services provides support for families pre, during and after diagnosis and includes a variety of services, including our parent and toddler groups, autism hubs, workshops for families, a dedicated enquiry line and our resource site as well, which can be found at the Family Resource site on the North East Autism Society website. So if you go to www.ne-as.org.uk and go along to the family development site, you can find all the information there.
00:15:53
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Hi everybody, welcome back to This Is Autism. Today we're discussing autistic employment with Dr Charlotte Aldred. So Charlotte, I'm really enjoying our conversation today. It's a much needed one, I think, and that we need to be discussing about autistic people and the employment issue, out
Practical Employment Advice for Autistic Individuals
00:16:09
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I suppose. and So kind of, have you got any tips that you think um would be useful for autistic people that are looking for work?
00:16:19
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First of all, probably one of the most important things I would say is get help from someone whom you trust, such as a member of your family, a friend, a support worker, a local autism charity, a job coach, a mentor, careers officer or employment consultant. They can play a crucial role in helping you find and keep a job. Just don't try and do it on your own.
00:16:43
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Secondly, i would say follow the approach detailed in my book, that is, Understand which of your strengths would be beneficial to an employer. Develop them and learn to self-advocate.
00:16:56
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Be aware of those characteristics that make an organization autism-friendly and supportive. Identify which of your characteristics would cause difficulties in the workplace.
00:17:07
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Then, as a result, be aware of which environments work environments to avoid. See what training, coaching and self-help strategies may be useful to you. My book has many suggestions depending on the situation. Examples could include practice interviewing, obtain more qualifications, get work experience, wear noise cancelling earphones or loop earplugs, use organisers, planners, diaries and calendars, use electronic reminders, keep an anxiety diary, take advantage of assistive technology.
00:17:41
Speaker
Thirdly, ask for workplace adjustments. Again, my book has many suggestions depending on the situation. Examples could include asking for interview adjustments, a work trial instead of or alongside a formal interview, regular one-to-one meetings with your manager or supervisor, a work buddy, mentor or job coach, flexible working or a designated quiet area.
00:18:06
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If you're thinking of self-employment, understand the advantages and disadvantages. When considering competitive employment, make a list of your major strengths.
00:18:16
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and workplace barriers and the criteria for your ideal job, organised into must-have, like-to-have and negotiable. Do your research thoroughly, which ought to help you um get some idea of the tasks and skills, work environment, necessary experience and required education that are emphasised for the types of jobs you're interested in.
00:18:40
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You need to realise, however, that the job descriptions you read about are written for non-autistic people, and do not provide the type of information you need to determine whether the job or work environment will be autism friendly.
00:18:53
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Read the job descriptions very carefully. It could be useful to have someone such as a parent, professional or mentor to act as a translator and discuss any unstated expectations.
00:19:07
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As well as advertised positions, you could contact any employers you would like to work for directly To see if they might be interested in employing you either now or in the future, there are plenty of job openings that are never advertised.
00:19:21
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Online networking could be a very useful way for you to make contact with other like-minded people with similar interests. In the long term, this could lead to a job. Most important, let someone you trust check all your application documents, including your cover letters and CV, as it can be difficult to spot your own mistakes. Lovely, Charlotte. Lots to think about there. It's interesting when you were saying about job descriptions, because often there's a little bit, isn't there, on the bottom that says and other tasks as deemed, you know, appropriate to this role. And that is just so open,
The Complexity of Disclosing Autism at Work
00:19:57
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isn't it? to
00:19:58
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to anything really for an autistic person that must maybe bring about a sense of fear I would imagine of what what on earth does that mean absolutely so one of the questions that we get asked a lot actually is um do you think it's important that an autistic person shares the diagnosis with their employer yes it is important but unfortunately it's not an easy or straightforward decision to make because disclosure can be a highly risky strategy Once shared, it can't be unshared.
00:20:30
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In a perfect world where all employers want to employ and support autistic people because of their valuable strengths and are happy to provide adjustments, then yes, it would be a good idea for autistic people to share their diagnosis.
00:20:43
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So if you're applying to an organisation that makes a point of employing neurodivergent people, then it would be sensible to let them know that you're autistic. However, the world isn't perfect, so the answer isn't that simple.
00:20:58
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Everyone's situation is different. So before making this very personal personal decision, it is important to understand the many potential advantages of showing your diagnosis, such as access to workplace adjustments and potential disadvantages, such as the possibility of stigma, stereotyping and discrimination.
00:21:17
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Should you still decide to show your autism after carefully balancing the advantages and disadvantages, you will need to consider when you should do this what you will share, with whom you should share this information and how you should go about doing it.
00:21:32
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These issues are covered in detail in my book. I think it is important that if you need workplace adjustments in order to do your best work, you should ask for them before you accept a job offer.
00:21:45
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And if the offer is then withdrawn, then this would suggest that this particular organisation would not be supportive and would be best avoided. Although the decision to share should be your own and will depend on many factors including the culture of the workplace, it may be helpful to recruit a non-autistic family member, friend or advisor to assist you with the entire sharing process.
00:22:10
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Let them help you list your work-related strengths and differences and the workplace adjustments you would need to minimise the barriers you face. When you share your autism identification, you will need to explain how it might impact you at work and describe how the adjustments you require will enable you to overcome the barriers you may face and enable you to do a good job.
00:22:33
Speaker
It is also crucial that you emphasize your abilities at the same time so that the employer doesn't jump to the conclusion that you are unable to carry out the job effectively. Brilliant. lots Again, lots and lots for people to think about, Charlotte.
00:22:48
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charlotte So I guess my last question and would be around what would you like employers to know about how best to support an autistic person?
Recognizing Neurodivergent Strengths
00:22:59
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First of all, I think employers need to appreciate just how valuable neurodivergent people could be to their organisation. Otherwise, they won't be prepared to introduce the workplace changes that would be required to attract and retain autistic employees.
00:23:15
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Autistic strengths may include good problem-solving skills, creativity, intense powers of concentration, very good long-term memories, and a strong work ethic.
00:23:25
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They can be perfectionists, produce high-quality, accurate work, and pay great attention to detail. Autistic people are also honest, reliable and trustworthy, genuine and straightforward with no hidden agenda, and loyal, often staying a long time in the job.
00:23:42
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Secondly, I would like employers to understand that it is crucial for everyone, including all line managers and those involved in recruitment, to have ongoing neurodiversity awareness training and be prepared to get help from organisations that specialise in this work.
00:23:59
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Finally, i would like employers to understand that different people will need different adjustments. So rather than guessing, they should ask all their autistic employees what adjustments they need in order to be able to do their best work. I think that's so important, isn't it? I think sometimes we don't ask the question. We just presume... It's the same with the work I do in schools. We presume that we know best what people need, and actually we miss out on one of the most important things, which is just asking the person themselves, how can I help? What can I do? No,
Charlotte's Future Writing Endeavors
00:24:32
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that was brilliant. I could probably...
00:24:34
Speaker
chat a lot a lot longer with you um Charlotte but I'm aware with we've got to the end now so for you Charlotte what what you've obviously wrote your book um what are you going to be doing next have you got any other big plans or are you just having a bit of a bit of a rest now well I'm writing articles regularly on LinkedIn um covering at the moment what employers should be doing to reduce the autism employment gap And then I will go on to things like what you know the public sector, the DWP and so on, should be doing.
00:25:06
Speaker
um I mean, the trouble is that everybody knows what they should be doing, but it's money. they just Nobody's prepared to spend the money. you know I mean, in schools, for example, neurodivergent children need much smaller classes. They're just not prepared to do it. you know It costs too much.
00:25:23
Speaker
um But yes, what I'm probably going to do is... um I think the I will start writing some articles about parenting and about based on our experiences um because we've really got a long-term thing from birth right the way through to somebody in their 50s and it's to been very successful from a child who, you know, from the day he got home and wouldn't stopped screaming, you know, we... we've had a lot of things, a lot of things all the way through. So there's some of this in my first book, um but it was probably a little bit too academic, too detailed in some ways.
00:26:08
Speaker
So I might redo it, redo it, but take you right taking it right through, including work and secondary school, university, none of which I covered in the first book, um and make it...
00:26:22
Speaker
A little bit more parent friendly, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Based on what we did and what we could have done better. i mean, one of the key things that was in that first book, and I would certainly bring forward into the second, into this the next one, would be that our son was very heavily involved in it. So, I mean, he doesn't live with us. And I used to send him emails with all sorts of questions and get answers back. And,
00:26:48
Speaker
I think that one of the things that's really surprised me is, so now he's nearly 50. And when I look back at the things that he couldn't do or couldn't cope with when he was younger, how much he's changed and developed at a much older age than non-autistic people, for example. I mean, some of the things are really quite extraordinary. So he couldn't,
00:27:18
Speaker
Bear um having baths. And there's a wonderful description in the in the first book about his reasons why he hated having a bath, all to do with how hard it was, the difference in temperature between the air and the bath, you name it. It was full of things.
00:27:37
Speaker
And now, I suppose, at the age of 47, he's decided to like having baths. Now, that's just... He couldn't watch television. well As a child, you know, most children get home from school and they turn television on, you know. um He didn't. I mean, our daughter did.
00:27:56
Speaker
But he would stand very autistic, stand in front of the grandfather clock, open them open it open it, and for an hour stand and watch the thing go backwards and forwards. Quite extraordinary. He couldn't watch television because I think a mixture of all these interpersonal things, which were, you know, social things and children, he couldn't cope with. And I don't think he could process what was happening fast enough. Yeah.
00:28:25
Speaker
Since the age of about, since the age of about, since he moved into his last house, I think he'd probably about 38, 40, he has a home cinema and has films on his home cinema. And from somebody who, you know, was...
00:28:44
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didn't, so antisocial in many ways, he even has people coming round to see films there. I mean, I'm just... extraordinary.
00:28:54
Speaker
The changes. That's great. Wonderful. So, honestly, it's been a pleasure having you here, Charlotte. and So, and just to all our listeners, thank you so much for listening. If anyone's got any questions or comments about anything you've heard, please get in touch at info at NE...
00:29:11
Speaker
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