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12. 'The Instagram moment' - life before and after my autism diagnosis
83 Plays12 days ago
James Henderson, 33, from Sunderland, opens up on our ‘This is Autism’ podcast about life before and after receiving his autism and ADHD diagnosis at 32.
Struggling with anxiety, frustration, and mental health challenges, it was a single Instagram post that sparked James’s journey to understanding himself. “It described this rage that starts in your stomach and spreads through your whole body. I wasn’t violent — just so irritated all the time. That’s when I realised, I needed to do something.”
James shares how therapy and support led him to his diagnosis, and helped him finally make sense of his experiences and who he is. Around 70–80% of autistic people experience mental health conditions, yet many face misdiagnosis, stigma, and a lack of proper support.
In the UK, 70% of people in inpatient mental health hospitals are autistic. Let’s talk about autism, mental health, and why early support matters. Special thanks to host Alex Davies and Brothers of Purpose Podcast for producing this episode.
Time codes for this episode:
2:00 Late diagnosis
2:23 The Instagram Moment
3:33 Therapy
6:30 Anxiety
11:00 Childhood
12:45 Diagnosis
18:00 Changes after diagnosis
20:00 Mental health
21:00 ADHD and medication
24:45 Life after diagnosis
28:00 School
33:00 Impact of diagnosis and work
37:30 Sense of justice
40:00 Communication
41:00 Masking
45:00 Perception
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Transcript
Introduction to James Henderson and His Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
this feeling of rage that would start in your stomach and then just travel all the way through your body. And I am still trying to figure out what is what, what is ADHD, what is autism and what is actually just James?
00:00:10
Speaker
I've learned more about myself in the last year than I could have ever imagined because I'd realized at this point that I was pooling and anxiety is an illness.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome everyone. We're here in partnership with North East Autism Society and today we've got my good friend James Henderson. James Henderson Hello. Thank you. James Henderson Great have here. Why don't you just tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Give us a bit of background. Henderson Let's start with a really nice easy question then. and easy So I'm a 33 year old, Chief of Staff for Direct Business Group.
Changing Perceptions of Autism and ADHD
00:00:43
Speaker
um I have lived my entire life with autism and only found out last year. James Henderson love that um What was your views of autism or the mental health side of things and prior towards your diagnosis? Because yeah I think it's pretty it's becoming quite prevalent, the late diagnoses, or at least that's how I've seen it. um I know for me personally, my views...
00:01:06
Speaker
changed dramatically through my teenage years, through to my 20s, to when I got diagnosed with ADHD. So I imagine it was probably pretty similar for you. Yeah, I think so. um I think ADHD when I was a kid was just the naughty people in the class who, you know, were isolated out. Yeah, yeah.
00:01:22
Speaker
and I agree with that. And all ADHD was for me at that time was hyperkids. um And I suppose my
00:01:35
Speaker
going have to edit this bit because having an ADHD moment now. Don't worry about it. that's the whole point of it. So my experience of mental health before now was very... People who had anxiety, I was just going to get a grip. How can you possibly be able to get out bed? You're just born idle.
00:01:56
Speaker
yeah Antidepressants, like it's just a cop-out. yeah it just You just don't want to go to work. yeah And that didn't change for me.
00:02:06
Speaker
Until probably about two years ago. What changed it? Well, I'll take you back to another point that's really
Therapy Experiences and Challenges
00:02:12
Speaker
prevalent. Just before that moment, Sophie had um told me about a celebrity who had been diagnosed with, was it ADHD or autism?
00:02:22
Speaker
Autism. um At a similar age that I was. Yeah. And I said, what a load of rubbish. Why on earth does this person want to be diagnosed with autism at this age?
00:02:32
Speaker
It's make no difference. It's purely just a publicity campaign. Let's get some followers on TikTok. Yeah, I get that. And then I was the x exact same age when I got diagnosed. And my God, it's changed my life. yeah So I totally get it now.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah. And what was your question before I went off on that tangent? ah So was focused around sort of your views of mental health. Yeah. Because i I relate to that. um Oh, sorry, you asked me when it changed. Yeah. when when When did it change from what you say is negative to, I'm assuming, how you feel now?
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah. um
00:03:03
Speaker
So I think the first step for me was...
00:03:09
Speaker
yeah it it Yeah, it was the moment on Instagram. So there was an awareness day campaign, you know, a month, whatever it was. um And somebody had um symptoms of anxiety and possibly other conditions. But and anxiety is the one that was was prevalent to me.
00:03:24
Speaker
And it described this feeling of rage that would start in your stomach and then just travel all the way through your body. And I wasn't violent, but I was just so irritated. Everything was just so annoying.
00:03:35
Speaker
And I just put that down to being a miserable ogit, to be quite frank. Yeah, a good boy. This is me. um So that was the first moment I thought, oh, wow, there's something here. Yeah. but I can do something about this. um And I don't know if I did it immediately,
00:03:53
Speaker
So my first real um experience of any kind of therapy was CBT, NHS CBT over the telephone. It just did nothing for me at all. I just didn't really understand what the hell it was or what the purpose of it was. Mm-hmm.
00:04:07
Speaker
So that didn't last very long. So is this so you you saw that thing on Instagram? Yeah. And then how what was the process of going towards the CBT? I mean, you've got you've got absolutely no chance of me being able to pull that out my head. No. ADHD means that that information that I don't need anymore is gone. Oh, I know that.
00:04:25
Speaker
It's 100%. So you saw these things on Instagram yeah and you thought, right, there's something to this. I don't know if we would we spoke about itself. I can't really remember exactly.
00:04:37
Speaker
No, I can't either. um So i was I was going through a really difficult time professionally. So actually, it had been four years ago, for three years ago. um I'd left a previous employee that I'd been to for a long time.
00:04:49
Speaker
um And there was a lot of you know trauma. So there's a word that you know people don't really understand. and Trauma isn't about bleeding or, you know, being beat up or, you know, trauma happens, you know, mental trauma happens to us without us even realising. Yes, I agree. So there was a lot that was going on at that time that, you know, looking back, I was in really bad place mentally.
00:05:12
Speaker
um
00:05:15
Speaker
And then I think me and Soph had a little bust up as well around that time as well. Yeah.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah. We weren't, within didn't show we we weren't bussed up for very long. Maybe it' a couple of weeks where it was just another problem, you know. um So that's why I signed up the CBT.
00:05:34
Speaker
And a lot of it was linked to an employment tribunal. Oh, really? And then that tribunal finished in November. And I was still going through the CBT. And then we'll get into December.
00:05:45
Speaker
And was just like, what's the bloody point now? Like, you know, it's over. yeah I'm really not interested in talking to this woman who, you know, granted is doing her best down the phone, but it's just not resonating for me at all. So I just told i was fine. It's fine. I'll i'll just crack on now. I'm better. I'm cured. yeah um Which obviously I wasn't.
00:06:02
Speaker
So then I think... um Do you think you knew at this point? that you That there was something else there? No. No, no, no. I've never... I've always had a little bit of a niggle, I think.
00:06:14
Speaker
ah People would often say, oh, you're definitely autistic, you know, and things
Impact of Therapy and Finding the Right Therapist
00:06:18
Speaker
like that. We had that conversation quite a lot. Like, not yeah not in a... It sounds bad, but in a bit of a jokey way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:06:25
Speaker
We said it quite a bit. You even said it yourself. Yeah, but we'll get on to that, because that comes next. yeah We'll do this in time order. Chronological, because that makes sense. So... Probably about six months after that, I first referred through NHS talking therapies. Can you remember why I did it?
00:06:42
Speaker
What happened? Had we had ah another bust up? Don't know. You didn't tell me at first. You didn't tell me at all. Okay. So I think anxiety, on another tangent, the biggest impact I'd had on my life was definitely personal life at home. soul yeah but didn't have any kids at the time, did we?
00:07:00
Speaker
Was Lila born? No. Yeah.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah. So Soph moved in with me at the beginning of COVID. And that was really, Soph is probably the only person that I've lived with long term with an immediate family. So I think a lot of traits, certainly around anxiety and ADHD and autism started to be more prevalent because there was somebody else there. Whereas before it was just me and my dog. So, you know, he had no qualms with me having anxiety at all. Not that he could tell you. No, no, no. Now you've said that actually, he did spend a lot of time away from me. So yeah, I self-referred to talking therapies on the NHS, which granted the NHS is under strain and isn't doing all that it needs to do, but that was a fairly straightforward process. You go online, fill in a form, and within four weeks, I had an appointment.
00:07:49
Speaker
And you go and see the the same person for six weeks. um And this I saw a lady called Claire, who was probably the second life-changing moment for me. So well the Instagram moment is, I've got something wrong.
00:08:02
Speaker
Claire was the first person that spoke to. I thought, actually, there's something in this. Something could happen. um there were There were just things that she spoke about that really resonated with me.
00:08:13
Speaker
And without realising, she was the first person who let me understand perspective. Okay. And that will come back to perspective as well. Okay. So I won't ask you on that. That's very important.
00:08:24
Speaker
Okay. So then, there's a journey on from there. Go on. So I saw Claire for six weeks and then discharged. So you have to be discharged from the service with the NHS after that.
00:08:38
Speaker
And don I do kind of understand that, not not just from a demand, but also it's important for you to go and try what you've been talking about put into practice. um So it is a bit like, you know, chuck them in the deep end, I suppose. um and And I think it'll certainly work for some people.
00:08:54
Speaker
so don't, don't knock it. Don't think I'm going to go just cause I only got six weeks. Six weeks is a lot better than nothing at all. So go and see. Go and talk to somebody. So then, um, discharged, got on with life and then had a real, what Sophie and I had our, probably our biggest bust up ever.
00:09:12
Speaker
Um, we were under on a lot of strain at the time. We'd sold our house. We were living with Soph's parents. We had Lila at this time. the Two dogs. Yeah, that sounds like... Yeah, work. And, you know, all this going on in my head that I didn't even know about. So I referred again.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yeah. Talking therapies. Fair play you for doing that, by the way. Yeah. But I want to tell you about this one because it didn't work. Okay. At all. Yeah. Different person, different place. Just not for me.
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah. I just got nothing out of going and talking to this person at all. um Not because they were, you know, they were a lovely person, just no connection. And it is so bloody important that people who go and look for therapy or any kind of mental health support...
00:09:54
Speaker
realize the importance in the relationship with that person. I couldn't agree And if the first person you see isn't for you, don't give up. If my second counsellor had been my first, I would have given up. Yeah.
00:10:05
Speaker
Don't do it. No, I think that's a really good point. you know, I've had my fish fair share of therapist counsellors and I suppose I've been quite fortunate with the ones I had, but also I did have, i had one in particular where I knew from the first session that it wasn't The person wasn't right for me. yeah But I went for another, I think, probably eight to ten weeks. okay Until I eventually went, I'm not going to go there anymore.
00:10:30
Speaker
So I agree. i think it's it's being true with yourself about that and working out whether the person's right for you. And that's probably neurodivergent itself. yeah The inability to leave and stop that process. 100%.
00:10:42
Speaker
I think it's a routine as well. Someone's got to do it for you. Yeah. and that's that's in the routine for me. So that's in the diary that's that's happening. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And once it stops, it's very hard to then make it start again.
00:10:54
Speaker
So if you stop seeing that therapist, day yeah now I've got to… If I miss one session, probably not going back. Yeah, really? Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how it's for me. Or depends that depends on the relationship.
Managing ADHD and Autism at Work
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah. If the relationship's strong, then there's a high chance I'll go back. But I've been in it i've had it in the past where missed one session… I might have booked another one, but the routine's gone.
00:11:12
Speaker
So that's definitely happened to me with things other than therapy. Yeah. Especially as a kid. Like, I joined every club going. And it got to the point where my mum refused to buy me any of the uniforms or any of the equipment anymore. Like, James, you can continue go. I remember is specifically Sea Scouts. Yeah. So you got two weeks free. of Two weeks free.
00:11:31
Speaker
And everybody had the uniform, you know, on you. Mm-hmm. saluting and whatever else you do at Sea Scouts. Um, knots and stuff. And I was like, I need the uniform. Like I'm standing there without uniform. I look like an absolute fool.
00:11:45
Speaker
And so I was, every week I'll go in and um I need this uniform, ma'am. And then after the second week, I'll have been nine year old because I got my first dog, Holly, little Lakeland Terrier that I'd wanted my entire life. Mm-hmm.
00:11:59
Speaker
I never went back Skate Scouts again because had a dog to look after now. And that was just how easy it was. Yeah, no I get that. you know Everything was like that. Absolutely everything. So as you were growing up, was there... When was the first time someone brought up or maybe questioned that maybe you had ADHD? I don't think that's ever happened, mate, really. Really? Until was an adult. Yeah. I mean, people probably said it, but not in way have. But maybe not brought it up in way of, we want to help you, you might have this. Definitely not.
00:12:25
Speaker
Definitely not. No. But looking back, I mean, it makes perfect sense. I used to spend my dinners at school, certainly primary school, stood holding the dinner lady's hand. I didn't fit in anywhere. yeah I wasn't a footballer.
00:12:37
Speaker
yeah And I didn't even fit in with the kids who weren't footballers. you know They were into things that I just didn't understand. so On that point then, that's for me. what when i was What I was sort of asking earlier was when you got to the point where, maybe not when you had the diagnosis, but when it was getting towards you having some maybe clarity on, I think this is Yeah, I remember the moment.
00:12:59
Speaker
Did that... Because for me, I remember when I got my ADHD diagnosis, it was a big weight lifted off me. it was it was ah It was a justification for a lot of my traits, which were seen previously, probably by me and probably by a lot of other people as very negative character traits. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. um ADHD floor wardrobe, that's a prime example.
00:13:21
Speaker
I cannot put clothes away in a wardrobe. That's not because I'm lazy, it's because I've got ADHD. Is that an ADHD? Yeah, yeah, maybe. I've got a whole my whole spare room, it's just piled with my clean clothes. The floor wardrobe is a thing. Right. We'll Google that and make sure, but I'm 99% certain it is. Oh, yeah, that now. I like that. Have you heard of that, Julie?
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah. No? Fair. There's another thing. So that's right. We've just there clicked on a new ADHD. I keep saying the word fair and it's driving me. I've never said it before in my life.
00:13:48
Speaker
And I went out for dinner with one of our colleagues last Wednesday and I started saying it in the conversation. I haven't stopped saying it since it's driving me mad. What is that? So is that another ADHD thing? I think so. I'm putting it down ADHD. Does that pick people's dialects, everything? Yeah, i do that when I'm on holiday day yeah and then don't talk in their accent.
00:14:01
Speaker
Yeah. you But it's awful. Yeah, it's bad, isn't it? Yeah, we're funny or something. Yeah, but we, so what we, am is it autism or ADHD where you've you've got hypersensers? Or is it both?
00:14:12
Speaker
ah It might be both, but definitely autism. Yeah. You can either be under or hypersensers. So what I do pick up on is is different changes in people's voice quite a lot. So, you know, accents you're talking about there. Yeah. It probably is a bad example.
00:14:27
Speaker
um But yeah, you pick up on all kinds of weird and wonderful things. I agree. And do mimic people. I agree. Yeah. But that's autism and that must be masking. you think? it could Possibly. It could possibly be part and parcel of that. Yeah.
00:14:39
Speaker
So i think it's yeah it's prudent point out at this point that as part of ADHD and autism, I am still trying to figure out what is what. and and and and And what is ADHD?
Self-Discovery Post-Diagnosis
00:14:50
Speaker
What is autism? And what is actually just James?
00:14:53
Speaker
yeah I mean that's a really good point though isn't it because I guess that's I mean do you think you'll ever probably work that out might get bit more clarity on it I think I've learnt more about myself in the last year than I could have ever imagined in what way well from diagnosis really yeah um Yeah.
00:15:11
Speaker
So, we yeah. um And just how I think differently. So the first moment that I ever realized that we think differently, as in people, is that not everybody has an internal monologue.
00:15:22
Speaker
And I just assumed that everybody thinks by talking to themselves in their head. and But apparently not. That's not thing. I've got no idea how else you would possibly think. but Is that not a thing? Everyone does that? Am I having that moment right now?
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, think so, mate. I thought everyone and did that. yeah And that's from a clinical psychologist, so I'm going to take a word for it. Okay, yeah, well, we probably should. She'll probably know more than we do. Yeah, well, she'll definitely know more than do. So, yeah, after second bout of counseling that didn't really work, I think at this point, and because of the relationship I had with Claire,
00:15:53
Speaker
I recognized the value in therapy, in counseling actually. um And it was counseling that I was thinking, this is what I need to continue. So gratefully, um i got access through work to a psychological therapist called Dr. Jennifer Cotton, who's an absolutely wonderful lady who deserves a shout out um and has helped in this podcast.
00:16:17
Speaker
Um,
00:16:20
Speaker
I remember my first appointment with Jen and she was telling me that she's not a counsellor. and And I can remember sitting thinking, what is this? What is this woman? taught haven't got a clue, you know. i We do psychological therapy, not the bloody old psychological therapy. It just didn't make any sense to me, but, you know, persevered. I'm in the process now.
00:16:37
Speaker
Exactly. karin And we were probably um
00:16:42
Speaker
four or five sessions in maybe. Mm-hmm. And I was there for anxiety. ah That's, you know, what was there for. Because I'd realised at this point that I was poorly. And anxiety is an illness.
00:16:53
Speaker
In the same way that having a cold is an illness. um So i wanted to get better. Because I could remember what life was like before anxiety was what it was at that point.
00:17:05
Speaker
okay I can remember being happy and you know, being sociable. Can you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. um And I'm there now.
00:17:17
Speaker
I'm there again. feel the best I've ever felt right now. that, mate. That's good hear. Which is why I want to do this. Because I want to give other people that opportunity. So I started seeing Jen um and she was the first person who, I've just banged the table, sorry. For about the last five minutes, if I'm honest. Sorry, guys. Hopefully AI will be able to edit that out, but if not, tough. Jen was the first person to mention autism to me. Okay. um And I cried.
00:17:44
Speaker
and It was the first time that my life had made any sense. i love it In like a a three or four minute conversation with her just explaining what autism was. Because I'd never give it any consideration.
00:17:56
Speaker
I didn't have a clue what autism was. Not at all. You know, people say, oh, you're on the spectrum. youve youve You're definitely autistic, you. What does that mean? like yeah You just brush it off. And then I had the, you know, like was saying earlier with Soph, I didn't care.
00:18:10
Speaker
I was 32 year old. What difference is it going to make in my life now if I have autism? Very true. And then I got diagnosed with autism and ADHD. And my God, did my life change? Very quickly. Very quickly.
00:18:22
Speaker
So then... um What was the first big change you saw when you got that diagnosis?
00:18:31
Speaker
I've got to try and just get those thoughts from you before you move on to the next things.
00:18:37
Speaker
I'm not sure. I drop in? Yeah. It's like, you know when you said earlier about autistic masking? Jen told you about that really early on and gave you a book about it. And straight away, you were like noticing yourself doing that every day. Like you'd come in from work and start actually talking about your day. Whereas before you were like, no, work's like separate.
00:18:58
Speaker
And you said that was masking because at work you would be like masking the autism. And then you'd come home and just be totally different around me. And then when you realised you were doing that, you completely stopped.
00:19:09
Speaker
Did I really? Yeah, straight away. Okay, because I don't recognise the change. I do now but not at the time. Yeah, straight away. You can't pinpoint the change. No, definitely not. um And masking is still something.
00:19:20
Speaker
Sorry? As soon as she properly taught you about what masking was. Yeah, you that's off, right? We haven't. je So me and Jen have had a conversation about masking and she gave me that book. was it you've You've read more of that book than me because I have not read any of it.
00:19:35
Speaker
You knew what it was. You told me what it was. oh no, I told you what it was just from a conversation I've had with Jen. But my ADHD means that, so I've either got to do it now yeah or I've got to wait until that moment that i remember it in the future and do it then.
00:19:49
Speaker
otherwise it just won't happen. That's so true. with ADHD there is either now or later. Yeah. And that later will only happen if you're ready for it to happen at that point. So that's why i've just got to get stuff done now. Yeah, I agree. So you're doing 10 things at once.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, or i just I'm just not moving on until this is done. Yeah. And if if I have to drive my car from Sunderland to Cornwall to finish what I'm doing, then that is what I'm doing because I can't move on to the next thing until it's finished.
00:20:14
Speaker
Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Yeah.
Medication and Its Impact on ADHD
00:20:18
Speaker
So then i was really I'm really grateful um that I got to benefit from private healthcare care for my diagnosis um through work.
00:20:28
Speaker
I still wouldn't be anywhere near diagnosis with the and NHS. um and and And that's something that you know we've got to be aware of. um So I think there's two reasons why autism is a neurodiversity and probably mental health is ah is a problem generally. and it's The first one is awareness.
00:20:45
Speaker
and We don't talk about it If I was to have a heart attack right now, you'd know I was having a heart attack. yeah If i was having stroke, had a broken leg, if i had a physical ailment of some sort, there has definitely been a campaign at some point telling you what symptoms to look out for.
00:20:57
Speaker
but chair That doesn't exist in the world of of mental health, autism or ADHD. There are no TV ad campaigns saying this is what an autistic person is experiencing or feeling.
00:21:08
Speaker
um So I think that's the first problem. yeah But then the second problem is we just don't have the capacity to treat everybody. So what how do you fix that? You know, we can do all this work at the front like we're doing right now, trying to raise awareness, yeah but we have to be conscious about the fact we don't want thousands of people now sitting there thinking, I've got something and they've got no one to turn to and and find out. I agree. I wouldn't even know where to begin with what the solution is. That would just make things so much worse. Can you imagine if you're sitting there with ADHD, undiagnosed ADHD, you've never thought about before and now you're like, okay, so I think I have ADHD, but I literally can't talk to anybody about
00:21:44
Speaker
Well, if you've seen that, or you've seen there was the big medication shortage, wasn't there, not that long Yeah, Elvin's. So that's one of the drugs that I'm on for ADHD. and It's a really powerful drug, and you have to go through a lot of processes to get it. My GP will not prescribe me it.
00:21:59
Speaker
Oh, really? I see a psychiatrist. um And once I'm on ah on a stabilized dose, they can then talk to my GP and say, are you happy to take this guy on and under your care? and But the GP can say no.
00:22:13
Speaker
So they're in the family of crystal meth. like It's a serious drug. I mean, that's yeah that's ah that's a serious one, that. um But the impact it has is phenomenal. um What does it Well, it stops me being impulsive.
00:22:27
Speaker
Really? It helps you to... um
00:22:32
Speaker
to stop doing this, which is happening right now. So completely losing my train of thought, just mid-sentence and it just totally goes. And it stops that or mitigates that slightly. It's meant to, yeah yeah yeah. So when I get to the maximum dose, hopefully, and um that will help.
00:22:47
Speaker
um And it helps with other traits, to be honest, Alex, and because I've got ADHD, I can't remember them. Yeah. I can remember how you got to a point now when you did that. Yeah. And were, like, amazed that that happened for the first time in your life.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah. So when I'm out, so so my therapy, outside therapy... So you've had that moment that you you hear people say when they took the medication and... Well, I could just, I could remember something. ah um So I'll put podcast on or music, my earphones are in and I go out with the dogs every night.
00:23:17
Speaker
Very rare do I listen to what's going through me earphones because that's my point where I just let my brain go. yeah It just goes on every little thought possible. You know, for the past two weeks, all I've been thinking about is what I'm saying in this podcast and none of it will be said.
00:23:29
Speaker
And I'll not remember the most of it. But the other week I was out for a walk and I can't remember it now, but I could at the time. And I'd went on this massive long tangent, you know, and and then it goes off on another tangent. You know, it's all linked, but I can never remember where it started.
00:23:42
Speaker
But I could. ah And that was the first time that's ever happened. And then the other day i was out for a dog walk again.
00:23:53
Speaker
And for some reason I noticed the time. And I can still tell you now that it was quarter past eight. Like how the hell can I possibly remember? Like before ADHD medication, you've got absolutely no chance of that staying in my head. Yeah, I can relate to that. Because I don't need it again.
00:24:06
Speaker
So it has to go. I haven't got the capacity. There's so much going on in right now. That's so true. So I try and tell people, it's it's like, if you think of thoughts as cars on a motorway, and there's just a hundred of them going in different directions.
00:24:20
Speaker
And when I want to try and get thought, I've got try and like hone in on a particular road and and and follow that. But it's very easy to then lose that again and try and get back. And one of the biggest problems is that once that goes, sometimes you don't get back.
00:24:34
Speaker
Oh, no. Oh, that's so frustrating. See, I've never gone down the route of medication, but from what you've just said there, that's made me definitely think about it. Yeah, well, you need to diagnosed first, and then um then you'll get referred to a psychiatrist. Yeah, cheers, appreciate that. From that moment on with Jen, jumped through a couple of hoops with Bupa, and then i met a guy called Miguel Montenegro, who also deserves a shout-out. He was a great guy, really lovely. You met Miguel, did you so? great.
00:24:57
Speaker
Yeah, um so I had eight weeks with Miguel, and... talking you know a lot about my life, but also um my family. So this was the first time that I really started talking to family about possibility of of having a neurodivergent diagnosis. And autism at the time, ADHD, I didn't dis discuss ADHD with genital.
00:25:21
Speaker
I actually scored quite low, not quite low, but below the benchmark on the the standard um scoring charts that psychologists use. I don't know if it's got a name, Julie. No, fine.
00:25:31
Speaker
um
00:25:34
Speaker
So ADHD at that point wasn't um on the table at all. It was Miguel who spotted it. And he had ADHD, or has ADHD. um So then the big thing for getting an autistic diagnosis ah an autism diagnosis is that you have to have had it from birth.
00:25:51
Speaker
So it's really important that you find that even now, when I was 32 years old,
00:25:59
Speaker
I had to find out if the traits and symptoms of autism that I have today I had at birth. I can't remember last week. yeah So that was a challenge. And then when I was two-year-old, I was really poorly with meningitis. And parents were told, you're losing your kid. He's not going to survive.
00:26:17
Speaker
So that also had an impact because that could, at the age of about two, have been a trigger for the symptoms that I have of autism. So they had to be able to rule out that meningitis. Really? and like So there's a two-year period from birth to two-year-old that they've got to now try and figure out, did he have any autistic traits at that point?
00:26:37
Speaker
Now, couple that with the fact that my mum, I think she definitely took it personally in some way. you know she she So her response to me was, James, nothing a matter with your son you, son. You're perfectly fine. You've always been a great kid.
00:26:50
Speaker
And that, I think, is... I suspect she probably feels a bit guilt she doesn't have to feel, you know, she's missed it. Do know what mum said about my ADHD? She said, you don't have but ADHD, you were just sensitive as a child.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah. That was how she saw it. You were just sensitive. That was her way of saying it. Yeah. So I relate to what you're saying there. Yeah. I think there is a lot of of guilt there for our parents. you know They feel like they've missed something.
00:27:16
Speaker
yeah But they weren't the only adults in our life. And actually, what we know about neurodiversity today is completely different than what we knew in 1992. I wouldn't expect me in 1992 as a parent to pick it up my child.
00:27:30
Speaker
Life was so different back then. So different. um So, yeah, my mum's got no reason to feel guilty at all, but she does. And that's a problem. You know, because we don't want her to feel that way. um So there were a lot of questions. Thankfully, my two elder sisters were very honest in their feedback about me as a child and how bloody awful I was, especially to them too. And I would listen to it everything. yeah So I'd be transfixed, obviously, hyper-focused on the television.
00:27:58
Speaker
But there'll be conversations going on the background and when Barney's finished, I would turn around and know everything that's just been said and, yeah you know, recounted and ask questions. Who's this? Why have they had done this? And then that's a three, four-year-old.
00:28:11
Speaker
I learned a lot about my childhood just from talking to family. I bet. I bet that was probably quite... quite an interesting experience to go through. I mean can imagine 95% it you didn't remember. No, not at all. no and you know my My sisters are five or six years older than me, so they had a good grasp of me as a kid.
00:28:32
Speaker
And the school was really hard. School was really hard. Didn't really know who I was. So it's a primary school, lot of time was spent with adults. um And then secondary school changed a lot.
00:28:47
Speaker
So secondary school was a bit of an opportunity because I got to meet new people, a lot of new people.
School Years and Realization of Neurodivergence
00:28:52
Speaker
But again, just didn't fit in, you know, from one friendship group to another. And, you know, I'd not going to be about with them at lunchtime, to be about with them at school. and Just who the hell do I fit in with here?
00:29:02
Speaker
And that didn't change until I was 15. And so at 15, I probably made my first friend that I've still got today, Catherine. Catherine and Catherine, actually, both of them.
00:29:14
Speaker
And that was the first time in my life that I really felt like I fitted in. And that was that was a pivotal moment. I can imagine. Life a bit then. What were we talking about? School.
00:29:25
Speaker
We're going through school. So all at this time, no idea of being Eurodivergent. see that So of I think for me, though, so you you sort of touched on it. When you were going through school then, I remember having points of going, why am what's different about me?
00:29:41
Speaker
I still remember that. Why don't I pick up on maybe the social cues? Why don't, why I quite fit in? Yeah. ah Yeah, definitely. and i don't think I ever questioned it in the same way that you did.
00:29:55
Speaker
But what I, I always got really wound up because I was always middle of the road in school, you know, C's and B's. And I just didn't understand why. like um what why can these people remember more than me Because that's what it all came down to.
00:30:09
Speaker
I couldn't believe remember. I'd be sitting in an exam. Everything you revised last week on. Well, that was another, you know, revision is pretty difficult with ADHD because that needs discipline and a boundary. Well, it just wouldn't happen, mate.
00:30:20
Speaker
You know, somebody needs to make me do it for me to do it. So, you know, you you say, right, James, your lunches are now revision sessions. Like, okay, I'm going to a revision session on my lunch, whatever it is, after school, doesn't matter. If you tell me there's some revision, you go away and do that in your own time.
00:30:35
Speaker
That is never happening. That's ADHD. Yeah. um So yeah, I was always middle of the road, always you know mediocre, never top of the the class. And people just could remember things that I couldn't. And that used to drive me mad. And memory is probably the one symptom that really drove me to try and get this fixed because it drives me mad. But do you remember peculiar stuff?
00:30:58
Speaker
Give me an example of what you're thinking. So for me, when it comes to random things like... I don't know, maybe like i from watching a specific TV program when I was in my mid-teenage years, I can now remember the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
00:31:13
Speaker
No. Really random things like that. um So there are things that I remember. I think we were having a conversation the other day about something really random and you were like, James, why is it that you know that? And that happens a lot.
00:31:24
Speaker
Well, that's what I mean. Random things like that. Pointless. pointless information seems to be retained somewhere. No value. But the rest of the stuff goes straight out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah can't remember my kid's birthdays.
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I had that with my mom yesterday. she my sister Actually, my sister my sister has to let me know pretty much every year when my mum's birthday is, the niece and nephew, everyone. My sisters I'm fine with because triplet, so i just about remember that one. I didn't know that about you. Did you know? how Maybe I did, but I forgot. You probably forgot, mate.
00:31:52
Speaker
I was just going to tell a story there, but I can't remember now I was looking at you, Sophie, and there was something I was going to say. What we were we talking about? ah Remembering. Weird and wonderful things. Yeah, remembering. Was that it? Yeah, you've got no chance of going. So that's what's really annoying. Yeah, know. But you just sort got to go wrong with it. just got to accept it now. So now I just let it go. Because before would have got really frustrated trying to remember what it was.
00:32:14
Speaker
And not normally, totally pointless. Sometimes I find you can pull it back and when you do, it's amazing. You get a buzz off that. Yeah, damn right, yeah. But it just doesn't happen enough. So I take a lot of notes now and I lean on everybody else around me.
00:32:26
Speaker
Yeah. What were we talking about? i say that so many times a day, but it's the only way get through. Yeah, no, I relate to that. I um delegate. And like, even at work, so everyone in my team, the ones that have been with me for a long time, they know exactly how I work. Yeah. They know that if I'm typing on the computer and they're talking to me,
00:32:43
Speaker
I'm not listening to what I'm taking it in. I'm hearing. but I'm not responding. And then I'll then they come back five minutes later or as soon as I'm done, I'll then go to them. Or I'll respond to them in my head. So I have yeah have conversations with people in my head all the time.
00:32:56
Speaker
yeah So Sophie found out from my sister that um ah bet you love that sophie found out from my sister that I want to get married in Italy in two years time. And I said, I'd had this conversation with Sophie. I hadn't.
00:33:07
Speaker
No, I do. i do We've talked about it all in my head. You put it to bed, had the conversation, it was happening. I need to go and tell that person this, right, okay, that's it told now. That's it done. That's put to bed. That happens a lot. But when you were asking earlier about, you said something about what's the biggest change, I think, did you ask? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what have you noticed and changed this? One the biggest impacts that having a diagnosis has had is definitely on work.
00:33:29
Speaker
You were saying there about how you tell your you know your team, especially the ones who've been there the longest, know you. I didn't know me. So, you know I've had a lot of problems. in You know, even in DBS, you know, especially around communication.
00:33:42
Speaker
People would be saying, why is he so abrupt? Why is James being aggressive? And it's not happening intentionally.
Embracing Strategic Thinking and Idea Generation
00:33:48
Speaker
It's just this is the answer. ah You asked me a question. If the answer is one word, all I'm going to give you one word. yeah I can't. So empathy is something that we really struggle with.
00:33:58
Speaker
And I certainly really struggle with. get that. Small talk is something that I've struggled with for a long time. Pointless. And that's only just recently starting to change. um Yeah, pointless.
00:34:09
Speaker
I don't care. i relate to that. yeah So that's quite difficult um when you're managing people. yeah So now knowing that, and I can talk to people when I first meet them.
00:34:22
Speaker
And I'm a bit of parrot at the moment. I tell everybody that I have autism and ADHD because it ah it offsets a lot of anxiety. So I'm not immediately thinking they think I'm That's true. Rude.
00:34:35
Speaker
Yeah. Aggressive. Short. Yeah, yeah. But then it also does allow you, they are allow the other person to understand that I'm short in my answers because that's how my brain works.
00:34:46
Speaker
um Where were we up to? These points all need to stay in because this this is ADHD in life. I do. We were talking about work when you introduced yourself to people. yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So the the impact it's had on work is phenomenal.
00:35:02
Speaker
but I've also now realised what I'm good at and what I'm not good at. So I think a lot of, if I think just about Derek Business Group, where I am now,
00:35:12
Speaker
A lot of the projects that I was involved in or managed fell away as soon as I started trying to do them. Because that's not my strength. My strength is in the idea and the strategy around it. and i can So I can process map something so bloody quick in my head because I'm off straight away.
00:35:30
Speaker
If it's a particularly complex one, then I'll write things down. But, you know, nine times out ten, I can ah know who needs to be involved in at what point. too
00:35:39
Speaker
Then doing it. Absolutely not. So that's autism allowing me to process map. ADHD then less ah does not allow me to then go and follow a process. um Certainly not because I'll become hyper-focused on something and then I can't move on in the process um or I'll end up off a huge tangent because I've identified some element of risk in a process that now I've just got to solely fix this.
00:36:02
Speaker
And then you're fixing something that's completely different. So I am not the person to do. I am much better as the ideas man. So that's been difficult getting to this stage in a career where that is my job.
00:36:14
Speaker
You've done incredibly well to get there. Yeah, granted, thanks mate, I appreciate that. But it's really difficult when you're trying to get into work if your main strength is ideas, because you are not going to be employed at 17 years old for ideas.
00:36:27
Speaker
You're going to be employed at 17 to do things. Yeah, very true. And yes, I struggled a lot. So I left i went to college for about six months max.
00:36:38
Speaker
and I wanted to study biology, chemistry and maths. But the college I was going to, St Peter's campus in Sunderland, it had just opened that year. i was at the end of my street. i didn't have to get a bus.
00:36:48
Speaker
That is where I'm going. And because it was new, there was a huge influx of students. So they put up the grades that you needed to do certain subjects and obviously the ones I wanted put on that list.
00:37:00
Speaker
So they said, you can't do maths, biology and chemistry here. um You can go to Bede and do it without getting a bus. That ain't happening. So instead of doing those three topics and and wanting to become a doctor, instead I decided to do English language, IT and psychology because there were three courses that I could do with the grades I had.
00:37:19
Speaker
had no interest in any of them. So anyway, six months in, there was a huge student union over the the road. I was getting £30 a week EMA money. um I could get in the bar. was only 17, but they never asked us for So that was the end of it. i went off for my birthday in February and never went back to school, college.
00:37:36
Speaker
So um you're going to prompt me then, mate, because i'm i I'm having a brain fog more. No problem. That's fine. Well, okay. Well, the point that I was interested in was, let's go through this, the um the keen sense of justice. Yeah, totally through that so there is a right and wrong.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So obviously autistic people struggle with lying. So when we're not, yeah I'm not saying I don't lie, ah but we we struggle with lying a lot more than um neurotypical people.
Autistic Traits and Social Behaviors
00:38:02
Speaker
If you do wrong, there is a consequence. Yes. Yeah. That's just a given, you know, and then and there is a process for that, you know, whatever it may be, whether it's criminal, civil, employment, you know, at home, you know, you do something wrong at all you suffer the consequence.
00:38:17
Speaker
You can't get away from that in my mind. like Autism means that if you do something wrong, you have to face the consequences of that. Yes. So, you know, if, oh, I've got a better story for you. Cool.
00:38:31
Speaker
So I live in Sunderland and we used to have an international air show every year. And so roadblocks would be put in place. And when I was a kid, the roadblocks would be manned by a police officer and soldier.
00:38:42
Speaker
Now, it's you know, it's G4S or whoever, you know, security guards. But back then it was a police officer and a soldier in uniform. And we got chatting to this this, these two guys who were on a roadblock at the end of our street.
00:38:55
Speaker
So I then decided, you know, probably day two, I'm going to have to go out in my police uniform. Because obviously i had a police uniform. All the neighbours used to say I look like Norman Wisdom. My auntie actually made it for me. It was tailored.
00:39:07
Speaker
ah Have you got pictures yours? No, there probably is some that exist. There will be some that exist. And a whistle. I was obsessed with whistles. I had whistles everywhere. um So i'd I'd rocked up to this roadblock in me police uniform with me new friend, PC, whoever he was, PC Smith.
00:39:28
Speaker
And then over his radio came um a report that there were kids throwing stones at the White Lighthouse and police needed to attend. So I like, get in. i didn't know where the White Lighthouse was. But you're going to find there was there was something down the bottom that looked like a White Lighthouse.
00:39:43
Speaker
So I ran down me my mate who wasn't in his police uniform. I was in my police uniform and we found this group of kids near what we thought to be the White Lighthouse. so Excuse me, have you been throwing stones at the White Lighthouse?
00:39:53
Speaker
He's like, no, I like what we're in my police uniform. Well, i like what, because I'm i'm working for the police. And he stole my hat and ran away.
00:40:03
Speaker
So they nicked me police hat and legged it. So I went back to my police friend that I just made in tears because me police hat's been nicked. And you know what, looking back now as an adult, I can remember the look on this guy's face.
00:40:15
Speaker
And I didn't know what was going on at the time, but quite clearly he was thinking, there is no chance I can report this because my mates are going to absolutely kill me. So yeah, that was a real sense of justice that went wrong.
00:40:26
Speaker
I get that. I relate to that. A lot of things like that happened when I was younger. Hmm. I think something that you said as well, we talked about it earlier, um which I know that I do quite a lot, which is when you're talking to other people, navigating the conversations and quite often pretending that you're aware of the topic, you can relate it.
00:40:48
Speaker
So and that was more prevalent really. if If I put myself into like a business networking environment, I hate networking. So people would start talking about football, you know, and follow Sunderland, love my team.
00:41:01
Speaker
and Unlucky. And, um you know, I like Premier League football, but if you start talking to me about specific players and what, I do not know. You know, because I can't store the information.
00:41:13
Speaker
So would just pretend. oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Great goal. Great goal. And I'm talking about goalkeeper. You know, so so at that point, what I would do is just pretend that I know what you're talking about and just keep minimal input. Yes, no's.
00:41:25
Speaker
Nod. Great. Yeah, yeah, that sounds great. You know, whatever you're saying. Fantastic. It doesn't matter. I haven't got bloody glue. But yeah. So that that and that's a masking. That's autistic masking. So that's one of the areas of masking I've spoken to Jen about.
00:41:38
Speaker
So you talked about masking quite a few times. good Do you feel you could summarise that? I'll try. um so autistic masking is essentially changes that we make to ourselves to compensate for our autistic characteristics that don't fit in within neurodivergent society.
00:41:57
Speaker
I think that's really general explanation and there might be some inaccuracies in that, but generally that's what it is. So we we basically make ourselves...
00:42:06
Speaker
Think, or certainly not think, but talk and our body language and our mannerisms are all essentially forced. um So autistic people generally have a different voice. So ah my entire life, people have always said to me, James, why you so posh?
00:42:20
Speaker
You know, I talk nothing like my family. Really? but Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So I get that a lot. Why are you so well-spoken? It's just the way I speak. And that's an autistic trait.
00:42:34
Speaker
um So learning these type of things, you know, it's not going to make any difference. But now I just to understand. So when people say to me, why? Because, ah you know, certainly when I was younger, people would see it as a bit of a snobbish thing.
00:42:46
Speaker
You know, I'm state educated, you know, very... normal upbringing, one of six kids. So, you know, we we had a good life, but we weren't rich by any stretch of the imagination. And if you met my family, you'd say, you know, we're not, we've got no silver spoons in our family.
00:43:04
Speaker
So then when I started talking like this, people like, why, who do you think you are? You know, you think you're better than people. And it's not, it's just our talk. I can't help it. um Yeah. So that was an interesting revelation.
00:43:18
Speaker
What else were we talking about there? Just changes you've had. Yeah, masking. yeah Yeah, so I'm still on a journey to try and figure out masking. um Actually, i was with Jen last week. So the whole idea of unmasking is essentially being you.
00:43:34
Speaker
That must be... 32 years. So I haven't got a clue who I am. um And that's something that i i'm I'm thinking about at minute. And I was saying to Jen, I can't just decide that who I am really is who I want to be.
00:43:51
Speaker
ah can't just say that I want to be this person, so that's who I am. So how do I figure it out? um And I think...
Emotional Awareness and Understanding Others
00:43:58
Speaker
A lot of it's going to come down to relying on other people, spotting changes in me.
00:44:02
Speaker
I've definitely spotted changes in myself. So we mentioned um small talk. I will now find myself walking up to people in the street and having a conversation with them.
00:44:13
Speaker
Stranger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah So like um the other week I was in Roper Park walking the dog. I don't walk my dogs on a lead because they're just easier off the lead. and There was a guy walking towards me and he had his dog off the lead.
00:44:25
Speaker
I had me headphones in. And I could see him going for his dog to put the dog on the lead. So I just stopped musing. I said, you're okay, mate. My dogs are fine. We ended up having like 15 minute conversation just about dogs, as you do.
00:44:36
Speaker
And at the end of the conversation, he said, you know what, mate? Thank you very much. I really appreciated that. And it really, really, really felt good. ah you've I've got no idea what was going on in that guy's head, but he just needed to have that conversation.
00:44:49
Speaker
ah And being able to do that is means a lot. So i'm a lot more talkative than what I was prior to diagnosis and and therapy. And well, treatment me for anxiety, I think is definitely helping.
00:45:03
Speaker
um What other changes have I noticed in myself? I think I'm a lot more emotionally aware now. So I had no emotional awareness at all. ah i would just Every emotion that I would feel generally just became anger and irritable irritability.
00:45:19
Speaker
um So understanding that now helps. But the secret, if somebody was to say to me, James, what is the secret to getting better? So James, four years ago, to James today, it's perception and the ability to understand that people perceive things differently is what now stops me from having anxiety.
00:45:42
Speaker
Oh, explain that. I think I'm really interested by this. I would have anxiety about something that I've said to you. you know And then I'm immediately going to think, oh my God, what you think I need? We ruminate at that point, or he's going to hate me. He thinks I'm this, he thinks I'm that. And whenever we ruminate, it always becomes negative.
00:46:00
Speaker
But having the ability to understand that people perceive things differently eradicates that. Because you're not going to think about the same thing that I think about in the same way. You're going to see it as a totally different problem, scenario, situation than what I am.
00:46:15
Speaker
So if we take something like,
00:46:19
Speaker
I've told Sophie I'm going to go and do something and i haven't. Right? It's the end of the world. She'll get over it. Where in reality, Sophie really needed that doing because she's got so much on her plate. You know, she's stressed. She's got, you know, two kids running around the house and whatever else.
00:46:34
Speaker
So it just allows you to then... understand that people have their own lives and it's not everything through your lens. Yeah, yeah. I think I've done really bad job of explaining that. I don't think you did, but I didn't know what it was before you... Honestly, if you if you want to get... if If you are listening to this and you have anxiety and you want to get better, go and read up on Perception.
00:46:57
Speaker
and I don't mean go and read like a medical book or something go and find something that you find interesting and that you can relate to um but just get a feel for the fact that people feel differently about the same things that you feel yeah so we've spoken a lot throughout this episode on mental health ADHD and your autism yeah do you categorize these together or how is it every single one of them is their own thing okay um You can have
Differentiating Mental Health and Neurodiversity
00:47:29
Speaker
a mental health problem.
00:47:29
Speaker
and and when Mental health, my God, that's so broad. I have anxiety, which is a mental health illness. um I don't think that I have any other mental health problems. I'm certainly not aware of them.
00:47:43
Speaker
I have autism. You can have autism and have nothing else. I have ADHD. You can have ADHD and nothing else. They have they do have a ah a relationship of sorts, which Julie will be able to touch on. and Not in the sense that they're linked, they're just, if if you have autism, you quite often have ADHD.
00:48:03
Speaker
If you have autism, you quite often have anxiety. and So in that way, you know, i'm not I'm not unique in the sense that I have all three, I think is what I'm trying to say to you. But they are completely different.
00:48:15
Speaker
And Julie will be able to explain to you a hell of a better than I can how and autism and ADHD are different ah to each other and to mental health. Yes, well, the they're not mental health conditions.
00:48:28
Speaker
They're something that you're born with and it's a different way of sort of perceiving the world. and And you can be autistic and have ADHD and not have a mental health problem.
00:48:40
Speaker
Sadly, if you are neurodivergent, there is a greater prevalence. mental health she yeah quite often not because of ah who you are but society benefit in and feeling that you don't and all of those challenges it goes back to that understanding so when you asked you know 32 getting a diagnosis what's the benefit I don't have anxiety because I now understand what my thought processes are and why they're different to other people's I get that before that why why on earth are they thinking that about that
00:49:16
Speaker
it's it's so blatantly obvious what the answer to that is but yet nobody else can see it so then you doubt yourself a lot yeah and you know or you know why are they so excited to go there like I'm absolutely dreading that we're going to go in there full of people or whatever it is you know so so that's social environment you're then able to understand what it is that you're feeling and when you're going into it so that you can just mitigate and you manage it you accept it you understand it's there and then it doesn't up a problem or certainly not as prominent and that's that's the big thing that's why i think getting diagnosed with whether it be mental health illness like anxiety or whether it be neurodivergent like adhd or autism
00:49:56
Speaker
If you think there's something there, and talk to someone because you haven't got a clue what the benefit is until start the process. And trust me, it's incredible. Yeah. That's probably a good way to, um or a good sort of topic to round this up on, which is if there is someone listening to this that maybe was you pre-Instagram moment, what advice would you give them?
00:50:22
Speaker
um Well, I would say if you are me pre-Instagram, woman you won't be listening to this because you don't care about neurodivergent or mental health. So that's the first problem. Yeah, that's true. am Am I talking to somebody who has anxiety, autism, ADHD? Is that what you're asking?
Advocating for Mental Health Awareness
00:50:38
Speaker
Someone who maybe be someone who maybe thinks... There's something amiss. There's something, yeah.
00:50:42
Speaker
I think and what I would say to you is that nobody on this earth really fully understands the power of our minds. And once you accept that, and you accept that mental health or mental illness is an illness in the same way that a physical illness exists, then you've got you can really understand why it's important to look after it, and do something about it.
00:51:04
Speaker
People go to the gym, people go to the GP, if you break a leg, you go to hospital. People suffer from mental health illness because we can't see it. yeah Because we can't see it, it's perceived to not be real.
00:51:16
Speaker
But it is real and it's in the most powerful part of your So don't ignore it. Go and talk to somebody. i love that. And don't give up. That's brilliant. Thanks very much. No, thank you. those I really enjoyed that. Cheers, James.