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The Macabre Episode
16 Plays6 months ago
Join Dave and Jake as they talk about Ravenous Devils, Life Eater, and what it means for a game to take things too far in this week's episode!
Intro:
- Majora's Mask - Stone Tower Temple
Outro:
- Majora's Mask - Stone Tower Temple Upside-Down
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Transcript
Meaning of 'Quixotic' and Mood Discussion
00:00:42
Speaker
going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake and I am joined by my co-host is always Dave. How's it going tonight, Dave? Quixotic. Quixotic. I don't know what that means. I forgot what it meant as well, but I think it means kind of like mysterious. Ah, OK. Be my best guess. That's fair. Yeah, I'm not sure how to. No, I do not follow up on that. Why are you feeling mysterious?
00:01:09
Speaker
I don't know. I i chose an adjective at random. I'm like, master one spin the wheel. Yeah. yeah Now that's fair. Um, it is just kinda, it's that kind of week right now, you know, it's in the, we're in the calm before the storm as the country that we both live in begins the next election.
Halloween Plans and Election Period
00:01:31
Speaker
Oh, I should say Halloween decision. What are you going to wear for Halloween? yeah
00:01:38
Speaker
No, it is, it is a lot coming up and what feels just like a week or so. Cause two, I think for us. According today. Oh oh my god. It was such an obligation responsibility. um Yeah. Tomorrow I'm doing more tattoo stuff which will take a chunk of my day. Right. um And I'm a terrible artist. yeah Just so sitting there.
00:02:03
Speaker
tattooing your own body. I'm paying them to rent the tools. Ah, okay. Catch you, catch you, catch you. It's kind of like an open shop. There are people there, you know, who are just like apprentices learning. Uh-huh. They're observing in the observation room. They're watching me being like, don't do anything he's doing.
Dave's Tattooing and Gaming Experiences
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:22
Speaker
oh It's me trying to etch a sketch my leg. And then Saturday, an uncle and aunts are going to be nearby visiting because we're going to grab dinner, probably going to have to meet the dog. Right. And then I think I got to go to a show on Sunday.
00:02:44
Speaker
And then it's like hollering to the election, dude, or something. Yeah, that's how they hit you. You mentioned the Etch A Sketch tattoo thing, though. And when you said that, what I visualized is the tattoo needle like apparatus is stationary. It's your body that moves. just And that sounds like the worst possible way to do that.
00:03:08
Speaker
They're really good at just like moving your body around to get the right spots It's like a a tattoo artist cross chiropractor is basically what you got going on Not a real science people I mean I can suggest it to them tomorrow and see what they think of it. Yeah, they're gonna be like no than that's but We want you to survive um So
00:03:36
Speaker
That's fair. Um, for me, for my answer, how things are going, going pretty well. Didn't ask.
'Ravenous Devils' Game Description
00:03:45
Speaker
and Didn't ask, yeah. No, I played. I bought a couple Steam games recently. And I was given some of them a shot. I'm trying to like umm trying to wean myself off of Warframe. um Good. It's a process. It's taken some time. And I don't know if I'm going to escape the weeklies for a while. But at the very least, I can put fewer than six hours into the game each day. um It's a process. you know
00:04:14
Speaker
So the one I picked up today, which is like on sale for like two it two bucks, 50 cents, something like that. Pretty close that it was three bucks or less. It was called Ravenous Devils. Have you heard of this game? I have not. Yeah. So apparently some other people in our our our extended friend group had had heard of it because I was just picking it up and playing it and heard that they were ah playing it also. But um the premise is it is a management game, um where you are it's your ears you're basically Sweeney Todd. There you go. You essentially have like a bakery and a tailor business on top of each other. It's like a husband-wife um partnership deal. And the tailor
00:05:05
Speaker
It's like selling clothes, you're making clothes and stuff and then sometimes when um people come in for a fitting, you kill them and you drop their corpses to the basement where they're cooked and then ah the the the dishes are brought up to like a pub and sold there and that is the management game.
Game Mechanics and Progression in 'Ravenous Devils'
00:05:27
Speaker
It's not very long. it's like I probably cleared it in like four and a half hours, something like that. um But it was fun. Is it like the style?
00:05:38
Speaker
Like, what what's ah the draw for you? I think it's... Is it the murder? Is it the murder of the people? Is it the murder of the cannibalism? No, it's... um I think it literally is the management aspect of it. um Because it's like, okay, well, different... and There's like a genre of restaurant-like games where like an order will come up. They'll be like, oh, I want this food. And you're like, okay, well, let me do whatever is necessary to prepare that and then deliver it.
00:06:07
Speaker
And this game literally has that um and as well as like meta progression, you know, eventually hiring an assistant to help out, but like they can never come to the basement as part of their, you know, the rules of employment. um And continuing to like expand, you have more customers, but higher quality requirements or like different varieties of food. and Now you have a garden and all that stuff and like,
00:06:36
Speaker
That's just fun. I like the management style of it and you can just play like the entire game with a mouse with a scroll wheel. um It's not
Violence and Mature Content in Games
00:06:44
Speaker
overly complicated. um It is fairly brutal, though. why um Because sometimes when you deal with themes such as this, they're very like tongue in cheek and you never see any of the the the violence, I guess. um And that's not this game. it would if I didn't check the rating, but it's definitely mature in the US.
00:07:09
Speaker
um And I don't want to go into over too much. We literally tag our podcast as explosive each time, but I don't want to go into like too much graphic detail for people who didn't sign in. I mean, violence or gore. Yeah. Yeah. there is there is There is violence. There is gore.
00:07:26
Speaker
um And it's kind of funny because otherwise it's sort of like cartoony, almost like Victorian style. Um, but no, it was a, it was a fun game. Uh, I think if it was any longer, it might start to overstay its welcome. But like for three bucks, something that you could just like play in the afternoon and then be done with, I'm good with that.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like a ah nice little murder experience. Yeah, I guess. I was watching a friend to play life eater. OK. Which in a slightly similar vein is a quote unquote. It's not management, maybe some time management, but you as the player character need to like stalk and kill somebody.
00:08:20
Speaker
Okay. As a part of whatever plot reason. Yeah. um But you have to make sure that your target is not like, oh, they only sleep on two hours and they're constantly up vacuuming and they always have a knife on them type thing. Yeah. um The story part seemed interesting from what little I watched. I'm like, I might just watch it on YouTube. The gameplay though,
00:08:45
Speaker
At least as a spectator looked so fucking boring. It is not a game for me. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Oh, I thought about, I thought about like a close game for comparison. If you've ever played or seen people play Dave, the diver and how you have the restaurant style management thing, it's kind of in some ways similar to that. But instead of fish, it's people. It's people. Yeah, it is people. Um,
00:09:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think yeah there is kind of a niche for these. These kinds of games, I guess
Game Ratings and Societal Impact
00:09:22
Speaker
that are like sometimes you have a game that like teenagers ah want to play, but it's like M rated or something, right? Say like GoldenEye or do like Perfect Dark or, you know, maybe like a Halo or something like that. And you're like, OK, well, it's got some violence, but It's just people shooting each other and in the US we're used to that. So like, sure, you know, all right? Like I'll, I'll buy that for my kid or whatever. Um, sometimes that's also not the right call, depending on the age of the kid, but like teenagers at a certain point, it's like, sure, you can play Call of Duty, right? Um, and then there's like in this game,
00:10:04
Speaker
you are serving other people, human people, meat, right? And you're like, that's kind of like a problem, right? Like, that's not something you necessarily want to cultivate in upcoming generations. Or you want to stalk people with the intent to murder them.
Dark Comedy in Media: 'Arsenic and Old Lace'
00:10:19
Speaker
And you're like, this seems like an adult theme, right? T for team. Yes, yeah, exactly. E for everyone.
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah. i I don't know how you skirt around it or if it's just not showing it. It makes you kind of possibly distance yourself from it. Yeah. ah no it's I I prefer like the tongue in cheek thing. Like this is the only time I get to reference this movie appropriately. Are you familiar with arsenic and old lace? I don't think so.
00:10:55
Speaker
old fucking movie. There's probably a famous actor whose name I should know, uh, who's in it. Cary Grant, I bet. Actually my money's on Cary Grant, but essentially he's living with his aunt and her friends. Um, and they kind of run like a very small housing thing, like an apartment for like a couple of people. Um,
00:11:20
Speaker
But the whole thing's just like a dark comedy where like you find out that these sweet little old ladies are actually poisoning like their older tenants and then just like burying them out back. They're like, oh, no, they were old. Like they don't seem fazed by what they're doing at all. ah Whereas other people are like, what the actual shit?
00:11:42
Speaker
um You did call it, by the way, it is Cary Grant. Of course it is.
Perception of Violence in Media
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah. Writer and notorious marriage detractor, Mortimore Brewster. Cary Grant falls for- Brewster, you don't hear that last name anymore. Right. Brewster. That's just Brewski's. That's all we've got. Falls for girl next door, Elaine Harper, Priscilla Lane. And they tie the knot on Halloween. So that's another way. Oh, wait, is it like his in-laws? Like, is it her family?
00:12:15
Speaker
I'm not sure. I was just looking at the the summary here for the rest with eccentric aunts and disturbed uncle and a homicidal brother. Yeah, there's a lot going on. This is 1944 when this movie came out. I like that. Stuff like this has existed for a long time. They're not like, oh, we'll never broach the subject of death. Yes. oh Because there are ways to do it that are not.
00:12:44
Speaker
horrible ram yeah and i think that's that's fair is you can have more tongue-in-cheek stuff like depictions of it without being as as gruesome like this game's fairly gruesome um I played like graveyard simulator. I think I talked about that once before that one also deals with like some very similar themes Maybe a little bit less eating the dead, but there was some of that and a lot more alchemy with organs and stuff like that, but it like was very gamified and so it's once it's like removed a little bit from just you know seeing someone be murdered and then chopped up and put into food like that is
00:13:30
Speaker
Easier to have less of an impact I guess right um The less your imagination Can do I guess Because like obviously if you put in actual depictions of your tailor tailoring customers being murdered right um is obviously a lot more graphic than like a And then he killed them. Like, uh-huh. Yeah. Or just like a comedic. You use like the.
00:14:02
Speaker
Shepherds bridal just like pull them off stage. Uh-huh, right and then there's just a pie they right there, right? There's a pie appears or something like that. Like there's ways that you can almost self-sensor this sort of content and I've definitely played games that have not that cannibalism comes up as like a casual
Ethics and Empathy in Gaming
00:14:20
Speaker
thing in many games, right? So like in my head, I guess where I was curious is comparing this to something like GTA and from a age suitability perspective, right? Because a lot of kids play GTA. um And they will play the next GTA, because parents don't do the best job of you know keeping track of what their kids play. And sometimes it's just like Grand Theft Auto, huh? Sure, or whatever. Little Timmy's eight, but you can play online. so
00:14:51
Speaker
um But that deals with, like, a lot of mature themes and perhaps nudity and violence and vulgarity and people just generally being miserable to each other. But it's less repulsive moment by moment compared to like Well, you're a stalker and you're going to murder somebody that it feels intimate, I guess, or you're trying to murder. Oh, I don't like the use of that word in that context. But I know what you mean. um Yeah. GTA hits a lot of like broad strokes of, I guess, like a TV or move a fight. I don't like that word either move a fight. Film animation or cinematic version of.
00:15:38
Speaker
crime or how we view it of like here's the burglar with his ski mask and striped jumpsuit a giant bag of cash type thing where it's like I want to cosplay as Or like oh if I were to just break the law steal a car, right? Mm-hmm It's a way to explore some of that in a fun, gamified way where you're like, Oh, lol, it was fun. Pissed off some cops, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Right. And then that's it. Like it stays within that game universe.
00:16:09
Speaker
um but at least for me, who's a little sensitive to some of those darker subject, cause my mind likes to linger on a topic here and there. right Um, or if you have something that unsettling that is so far removed from day to day civil human society activity, where it's like, Oh shit. Cause like, if I were to steal something from a store, you'd be like,
00:16:35
Speaker
Dave steals, I'm not going to report him, but like, it's really shitty that he does that, right? Versus if I murdered somebody, you're like, Holy shit. It's, it's kind of his thing. Just, just a heads up about Dave. Um, right. Yeah. But I think that part is just, it's so far removed from reality where it's like, got some really comparatively fucked up shit. Yeah. But if you just kind of,
00:17:04
Speaker
just do a hand wave over it. It's a lot easier. It's kind of like. I know you didn't like the word intimate, but maybe you could use the word personal, I guess, and how some of these games deal with it, because like you could take.
Violence in Games vs Real Life
00:17:20
Speaker
Grand Theft Auto and make it significantly more impactful from a violence perspective by just changing some of the mechanics a little bit, right? What if- Have no guns only have melee weapons? I mean, melee weapons for true, but also like what if you could injure opponents and then they're just incapacitated You know, begging for their life and you have the choice to kill them or not. Right. Now it's now you're kind of leveling up the depravity in a way. And I'm not saying i'm to be clear, I'm not suggesting that this is the game, but but this is the or this is the way it should be. um I'm just saying like there are different lines for what's disturbing to people. And just in agreement with what you were saying,
00:18:07
Speaker
um some of the stuff that we're more exposed to is probably just not going to bother us as much, right? Like when I first played Starcraft, or I saw Starcraft being played, it made me feel queasy because of the blood, right? like And that that seems almost absurd now.
00:18:25
Speaker
um by It took me a little while to get desensitized when I saw um the Patriot with me the Mel Gibson fellow. Oh, dude. Every time I see that movie, I get sent. Yes. There's a scene where someone gets decapitated by a cannonball.
00:18:43
Speaker
And I was very much not ready for that as a young teenager. And my parents just did not understand why it bothered me so much. Like I was like, leave the room upset. I mean, it's
00:19:00
Speaker
Granted you were a child so a lot of stuff gets excused for that anyway But also like when they first started doing movies and they had like a train come at the audience They freaked the fuck out because they didn't have the context for that type of imagery Existing, right? um So in the same way it It felt real to you because that was like your first exposure to it. There wasn't that time to kind of separate between the game part of it versus reality. Right. Because I think any violence, broad strokes that you see in video games now, you're just like, well, yeah, I shot the guy and he and he died. That's that's how the game works, right? Yes. um You're not focusing in on it and you're not bothered by it. You're like, yeah, that's part of the game mechanic. And then you move
Fantasy in Violent Media and Audience Impact
00:19:49
Speaker
on. Right.
00:19:50
Speaker
It's not like I killed a person. It's like I depleted a health bar. Right. Yeah. Like it'd be different where it's like, hey, we're really focusing in on this moment and we're going to keep sitting here. Like um I think there's a flash game where.
00:20:07
Speaker
Like the first guy you kill, um, like emergency services, uh, comes in to be like, they pronounce him dead. If you continue the game, like the cops come and start to like look for you, but it's just like the continuation of like, here are the repercussions of your actions in this game. That was done as like, uh, a ah subversion to like drive a point home. exactly But yeah, a lot of games, it's just, Oh, I jumped on the Goomba. Yeah.
00:20:38
Speaker
Yeah, we don't hear the Goomba's story, right? Like the survivors of the Goomba's family are having ah an interview with the Mushroom Kingdom News. It's like, no, it's it's it's kind of just a game, but I do like the
Character Development in Media
00:20:53
Speaker
subversion, right? Because like sometimes it's nice to get that right angle turn of like All right, you are cheating this like a game, but what if we didn't for a second, right? Like, what if this meant a little bit more, or we treated this like a little bit more realistically?
00:21:12
Speaker
um There's a turning into the macabre episode, so that's just that that might just be the title. But we've got to talk about corn as well, so it can be corn on macabre, not corn on macabre. Yeah, exactly.
00:21:27
Speaker
um There is a but there was a ah scene, I guess, a ah level in Hotline Miami 2 where you're playing as a detective who I believe eventually becomes Richter or wears the Richter mask, which is the rat one.
00:21:44
Speaker
and it's really It's really interesting in the Hotline Miami series because generally you're just killing everybody, right? You load it into level, there's a bunch of Russian mobsters and ah they all die or you die and that's the game, right?
00:22:02
Speaker
um And there's not too much more to that. And even the mindless violence kind of plays into the themes of Hotline Miami. But this guy's just like a private investigator. And so he walks up to like the front gate, and there's like a guard there, and there's some dialogue. And they're like, yeah, we're not letting you in. And he um your only option, basically, is to start fighting them, to try to like incapacitate them.
00:22:31
Speaker
um to like get in, and there there might have been some reason that the investigator really cared about this, maybe trying to save someone or something, I can't recall. The important thing is when you fight this individual,
00:22:42
Speaker
um he tries to do it like non-violently as much as possible, or non-lethally I should say. um And even like what happens is as you like continue to try to fight these mobsters or whatever, um eventually one of them gets seriously injured.
00:23:04
Speaker
And there's even like an animation of um if you like interact with them, like after they're injured, he'll try to like perform CPR. He'll like try to save the person. um And I think if I recall correctly, like ultimately fails. And then eventually, if you keep fighting in this um in this level, ah he give it more and more violent until he's just killing people. It's just you could call it self defense. You could call it whatever you want at a point. But he just becomes another hotline main character um who's killing people. And I just love that. I love that. They didn't need to put this whole transition thing in, but it made sense for the character and it kind of showed the descent into I've already gone so far. Why not go further?
00:23:53
Speaker
um Damn. I should play this Hotline Miami game at some point. I mean, to be fair, most of it doesn't have that level of nuance. Yeah, like drama and and and stuff like that. But this mission is kind of a standout. I can appreciate some stuff like that if you're in it, because anytime you flesh out a character,
00:24:19
Speaker
it It feels so much better because then you can understand their actions all the more. Yeah. I was watching an anime. I unfortunately have already caught up to everything that's aired in a very short amount of time. But Oshi no Ko. That doesn't sound in English.
Dystopian Themes and Morality in Media
00:24:38
Speaker
It is. It is an anime. So no. um I don't know what the English translation is, ah but basically it's a bunch of people who are in the performing arts, whether they be acting, singing, ah doing some of the commercials plays, um they're entertainers. And before this play happens in season two, um you see like them getting ready for the roles, like trying to understand the character and like
00:25:08
Speaker
their reasons why they want to perform well, like what drives their motivation, what got them to this point so that by the end of it, like you're rooting for literally everybody, not even just like the side character who is like kind of there in season one. You're like, yeah, whatever. Um,
00:25:26
Speaker
But yeah, they give them all of that backstory to flush them out so that if there is a major change of heart, like switching from pacifist to violent, it has a lot more impact. Right. Because if somebody is violent all the time, you're like, yeah, that's their nature. Easy peasy. I get that. But if you take somebody who's not violent And you make them become violent and you see them struggle along the way because they're still trying to resist that. Yeah.
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean like what you're describing this is gonna be this is far less credit than an anime But what you're kind of describing to me is sort of the world building set up for something like the hunger games Where it's like hey, we just take a bunch of people who? Some of them are ready to kill other people most of them are not right all right kids one of you lives, here are your weapons, here's some food, go for it. And it's like absurd. right it's like It's absolutely crazy. But it should be repulsive. right It should be like the very idea of this is is terrible. And if we lived in a society where running death games with teenagers was acceptable, then man, there would almost be like no plot to that but series. right
00:26:49
Speaker
um But because it's unacceptable, it makes it compelling. You're like crap. But to what you're describing, though, that sounds better than something like the Hunger Games, because the Hunger Games was largely from the point of view of the protagonist, the few people that they interact with that you got the opportunity to empathize with. um It's a a lot less like, hey, this is a school, right? Yeah.
00:27:17
Speaker
Also like with the Hunger Games approach versus something I call like a battle royale. um As far as like, I think there's multiple anime or Japanese shows or movies that ah kind of cover that theme. Death Race.
00:27:36
Speaker
Oh my God, so bad. um But yeah, like it is a dystopia. But I think the Hunger Games approach for it is so much more tame than something like Danganronpa. Yeah, I was thinking of Danganronpa. I was like, it's going to come up at some point. Because I've only played the first game, I should say. I know a special guest, um Justin and Rachel, ah both are are purveyors of that. I think particularly Rachel, if I recall correctly.
00:28:06
Speaker
um But that's that's exactly the setup, right? It's like, oh, what if a bunch of people in a high school suddenly were all trapped and the principal had the ability to kill them whenever they whenever they wanted, but i only does so in extreme circumstances because someone else is doing the killing amongst all of the students. And yeah,
00:28:33
Speaker
there's a lot you can do with that. it It should be impactful if the characters are meaningful, and sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.
Curiosity and Morbid Themes in Media
00:28:40
Speaker
but i
00:28:43
Speaker
I think from moment to moment, episodes or a lot of those shows don't do it so great. It's just kind of like you expect the same thing each time as far as the issue. Your protagonist doesn't want to be doing this, which is the the compelling part, because if they're like, yeah, you're just like, oh, they're just going around killing people. Yeah. Like what's the progression into um versus something like squid games, where they really did dive deep into the psyche of individual characters and why they're doing this and how they're going to fight to survive and like what you're willing to do. And it it just continued to build up. It was very compelling throughout so much so that I got renewed for a season two that's coming out at some point. Yeah.
00:29:39
Speaker
You opened that with squid games, like where they really did die, Vin too, and I was like, have I not seen squid games because the contestants actually died? Is is that is that the reason that I haven't seen it? Wait, did you watch squid games? I haven't seen it, no.
00:29:57
Speaker
Are you familiar with, uh, yeah, it's a survival game show type thing, but emphasis on to arrive. I'm glad I didn't spoil anything, uh, for you. I do highly recommend highly recommend it for you and anybody else who just likes good stuff on Netflix, uh, slash that type of setup. Cause I think they did a very, very, very good job with it. That's based off the Nintendo game where they paint stuff. Right. Hmm.
00:30:25
Speaker
It's the Nintendo game where they like paint the terrain and you know, like whammy and make sounds like that. Yeah. ah yeah And unfortunately the movie costs $60 to watch for some reason. Definitely Nintendo then. Yeah. No, it's.
00:30:49
Speaker
It's kind of an interesting, it's a, it's a, it's a mindscape. You can take a vacation in, but it's important not to like set up residence there, right? The types of movies or interactions or things like that. Like.
00:31:04
Speaker
I wouldn't want to play a game where you're playing as a stalker for a long time, like an extended play session or something like that, right? Because I was bothered like watching Dexter ah through all of the, just like binge watching that for seasons. Dexter's an uncomfortable show and progressively so. Yeah, because the seasons start getting bad, but it wasn't a moral thing. I just, I have discerning taste.
00:31:29
Speaker
I mean, like you're rooting for him as a vigilante. But a lot of people he runs across are like so fucked up where you're like, OK, what he's doing is justified. Right. And you feel for the character in their motivations. um But he's also a bad person. Like, that's that's the other like key. He's a serial killer. He is an actual se serial killer. And that's the that's the issue is like.
00:31:56
Speaker
I'm glad we're talking about Dexter, because like that's part of the issue with doing despicable acts in a video game, is you choose to do those acts. right It's not just something that you're seeing. Like Danganronpa, as far as I know, you never play as the killer. You're not choosing to kill people, you're just i Like Batman tier investigator that ultimately figures it all out but never really fast enough to keep people from dying um But like if you're playing a video game Then you're empathizing generally with the actions of the point of view protagonist and so it's more impactful if they're doing things that are really negative in the case of the show Dexter and
00:32:37
Speaker
The main character's name does the name of the show. So like you're inclined to empathize with what he does. But even if you agree that some of these people deserve to die, he literally straps them up to a table.
00:32:52
Speaker
He doesn't just mercy kill them while they're unconscious or anything like that. He has this entire. He stabs them in the heart after like basically reading out their sins. Yeah, it's like, is that for them or is that for him? Because it really kind of is for him. He calls it the ritual. Yeah, exactly. And his desire to kill, he calls the dark passenger. um So even in a way, he has personified his own stuff so that I can separate it a little bit, right? Because he's trying to balance having a normal life, um but also being really fucked up.
Morality and Ethics in Video Games
00:33:30
Speaker
But like, I think.
00:33:33
Speaker
talking about like the, the nature of this and movies and shows and things like that. Like there is some fascination to it. And again, I personally think it should be a vacation, not a permanent resident sort of thing. Um, but why do you think, why do you think that there's this fascination? Why do you think people would watch a show like Dexter instead of just being like, Ooh, icky. I don't want to, or squid games or anything like that.
00:34:01
Speaker
I think for a lot of TV, um, there's necessarily have to be violent, but I think it is partially just an escape. Anything to just put your mind on not real life. Um, in the case of the violence stuff, I would almost loop it under something like,
00:34:21
Speaker
Not stranger things, that's a very bad analogy. But there is a certain degree of a fantasy of what if, where it's like everybody's had the thought of like, oh, I could kill that person. right Again, nobody's going to go out and just kill somebody randomly because that's not how we do um as a society. And it's such a heinous act that you're like, well, I would never even do that. So me saying that is obviously a joke or just kind of like an offhanded comment. Right. um It's hyperbole because it's so, so far out there. Right. So if you get to see a movie where people are dying or going outside of the normal day to day life stuff, there is a part of your brain that thinks curious as far as like, OK, let's explore that a little bit, something that's taboo on the dayto day to day.
00:35:17
Speaker
Let's have a podcast on how this person killed these other people. Yeah, that's fair. And that's not even our podcast. Like it is. That's other people. But like it is a. Uncomfortable high, but not have those podcasts. I don't think it's terrible to have. I just don't like how.
00:35:38
Speaker
popular they are in the same way that I don't like how focused some people can be on reality TV. And I've even found myself via Twitch getting slightly invested in some of it because you want to see in things that you experience media wise, the people you like succeed, the people you don't like to fail, ah the horrible characters in a movie to get murdered. Right. If it's that type of movie and you want to see the people you like ah survive and succeed. this Game of Thrones, right? Yeah, the whole thing, I think, is just a fantasy exploration of some of that to kind of like dip your toes in.
00:36:24
Speaker
That's my takeaway anyway. I think it's just a morbid curiosity that everybody has to some degree. I think that's fair. um I guess like from my own personal view, like having played Ravenous Devils, for instance, would I have been as tempted to buy up, a or to buy I don't know why I said buy up, it's not like I'm purchasing stock, to buy like a $3 game that was just a restaurant management simulator? um Or was there some part of my brain that's like,
00:36:58
Speaker
this is This is pretty dark, and I'm more interested in it because it's pretty dark. The reality is the second, right? like it's I would have been less interested if it was just a vanilla, like, oh, this is a cupcake baking game with a dress-up tailor shop above. And in the basement, they make cupcakes.
00:37:19
Speaker
it's like that That would be less compelling to me. um But it's not because I want to kill any people. like That's an unrelated question. No. um But it is, like you said, it is kind of compelling. It is like a little bit taboo. It is something you don't deal with that much. um And it's it's the same for me if I'm watching like an anime or a show or whatever. One of the reasons I was invested in Game of Thrones was because like anybody could die for a good chunk of it. Eventually you kind of realize you're like, all right, these people are the ones that they're kind of core plot related stuff. yeah They've got layers and layers of plot armor, but
00:38:03
Speaker
For the most part, at least in the early bits, you're like, I really thought that this person was too important to to go and they went. And so that makes you more invested. A huge thing for the time, because I don't think that was too common in a lot of stories. Yeah. But yeah, it's I think we've talked about some different fashion at some point, but I like things that have stakes. This game has stakes.
00:38:32
Speaker
Oh, thank God. yeah You can make, you can make ground meat. You can make steaks. You can make sausages. What's the marbling? like but No, it's the.
00:38:46
Speaker
Like if something happens, it has consequences and it makes the story feel more real instead of, hey, it's just a game. Yeah. There are times where I like purely gamified stuff and things to be fun. And maybe there's like a rhythm to it yeah and it's lighthearted. Yeah. Fucking love it. But if it's going to be a story thing, I want there to be more drama or layers of things that can go wrong. right I want to be emotionally invested and care that the outcome I desire for, whichever protagonists will work out, hopefully.
00:39:29
Speaker
right um
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah. yeah it's I think it's fine to have it in stuff. I think it is fine to even explore it a little more as far as like um
00:39:47
Speaker
I guess actually kind of quantifying how fucked up some things can be. Sure, yeah. I think there's a game, This War of Mine. Yeah, I'm familiar with that one. I think I own it. Okay. I saw it reviewed by somebody a very long time ago on YouTube, probably Dunkey, so take that
Depiction of Violence in Games
00:40:05
Speaker
for what it's worth. ah um But yeah, it just goes into like actual real life consequences of things yeah and makes you think. And it's supposed to make you feel something. right That's the goal of it. i can I can give you an example from the game. And this is probably the the game reviewer example that comes up a lot. yeah But legitimately, it's a survival side scroller management type game where you're kind of picking survivors to try to get through this conflict. And supplies can run low.
00:40:37
Speaker
And it's possible to find an elderly um ah couple's house, and um they have a bunch of supplies stocked up.
00:40:50
Speaker
And they're defenseless. And you by the point so that the the time you reach this point in the game, like you may need them. right The people at your base may need them or other people could die. And the game does not force you to steal their stuff, but nor does it force you to leave them alone. And if you leave them alone, the award that you get is you're like, great, I didn't steal supplies that I really, really needed from those elderly people. um But if you take the supplies, then consequences also. So like,
00:41:29
Speaker
That's the kind of game it is. And man, it was it stressful to freakin play. Right. See, but that's the sign of a good game and good writing, because again, these are pixels on a screen. Yeah. Right.
00:41:45
Speaker
um And it's when you you're you're struggling to kind of differentiate between, I don't want to say the video game in real life, but when you start to care about the pixels on a screen or sharks during shark week, or you start to humanize or empathize with something.
00:42:07
Speaker
it It shows a lot about you as a person and games are a fun way to explore some of that, right? Like I'm sure that and books and movies can make you do that in a similar fashion. I just have a lot more experience with video games in that medium of like giving the player the choice of like, hey, do you want to play as a good person or a bad person? We're going to give you the option.
00:42:33
Speaker
Undertale does it, right? Yeah. It's a classic thing of like, hey, you don't have to fight anybody. Do you do a pacifist run or do you attempt for a genocide run? Really hard, by the way, because of a certain boss, but also hard because it's it's uncomfortable. Yeah, it's also it's also kind of uncomfortable because like the game forces you into a neutral playthrough first. Regardless of what you're really trying.
00:43:00
Speaker
Um, you can't get true pacifist or true like genocide ending your first time playing the game, which causes you to learn who the characters are. yeah And you can't opt into a genocide run until you've learned who the characters are. And that's so much more powerful. Um,
00:43:25
Speaker
And I think like you talked about like choice in games, so kind of like do the right thing, be evil, be good, whatever. And I do, I will say, like there have been times I've played a game where I'm like, OK, this is an evil playthrough. right I'm going to play the evil Fallout character this time or something like that. right um I struggle with it at times. and I remember playing Baldur's Gate 3 with you, you psychopath.
00:43:50
Speaker
um I mean, i tried I tried to the extent that I could not to be evil. Up to a point, but then there were some characters I think that both of us were like, yeah, let's just let's just yeah just knock them off. ni your my real quick yeah um but there are some games like where there's a choice that can be made by a player and I would be lying if I said that if I heard someone made the evil choice or like the murder of the companion choice or whatever I wouldn't be like why'd you do that though right like Undertale's a perfect example of that right like
00:44:35
Speaker
Like, how much did it hurt you to go through the genocide play through? Not just talking difficulty. I'm talking like how much emotional, damn, emotional damage did you inflict on yourself in order to kill all the characters that we came to love? um Because I hope it was a lot. If not, I'm concerned, right? Yeah, it's like.
00:44:58
Speaker
It's just it's a human trait, I think, to personify and humanize things like in the same way. Like, again, I have a dog as a pet and I try and intuit a lot of her emotions and her expressions into human stuff, which is why whenever she sighs, I'm like, Oh, is your life so hard when I take care of everything for you? um Part of that is like, I like to add the melodrama, but also I think she's being passive aggressive. Right. But again, I'm like projecting that onto her to hurtche some degree. Exactly. Yeah. In the same way, like, you know how you get angry at electronics? They don't have emotions. They can't hear you. Yeah, it's just venting into the void. That's all it is.
00:45:47
Speaker
Yeah. um I mean, it only works with ah certain Amazon-based home devices that ah they will respond if you say their name. They're just like, I'm calling the police. oh Oh. Thankfully, we do not have laws against harassing our digital assistants yet.
00:46:09
Speaker
well out of curiosity, cause we talked about exploring some of the morbidity yes ah and stuff. Do you have a a favorite violent game because of the nature of that or like where would you draw the line of comfort for you of this is fine versus this is too much. Oh, that's a that's a deep cut question. um The boring answer to the first one, which I'm not going to actually use, but I'll mention it because I need the credit hotline Miami ah for a final favorite violent game with impact and stuff like that. But
00:46:48
Speaker
I don't think that it's um gruesome enough, I guess, to really to really sell it. Because there is a point where a game's like, for me it's cruelty, I think. um When it crosses into cruelty,
00:47:07
Speaker
then I don't like it, right? like um Trying to think of what kind of game would be like that, though. Because like those aren't the types of games that, I'm not going to gonna say they don't exist.
Storytelling Impact in Games
00:47:20
Speaker
Anything can get published on Steam now that they did away with Greenlight. And they're just like, hey, if you guys wishlist, you guys could wishlist the return of Hitler ah in 3D or something. And we would publish it on the platform.
00:47:33
Speaker
um So it's kind of hard to to answer from that perspective. If I can try and rephrase what you're saying, just make sure I'm on the same page. Yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
um It seems like blanket murder type stuff is fine because it's kind of like a a binary. Their life went from on to off. They're no longer rendered on the screen type of thing yeah versus injecting sadism into it. Exactly. Yeah, like that's a good way to put it. And the line for what I think is acceptable to do to a NPC in a game moves further and further to the side if that, um, this is reinforcing what you said. If that NPC is personified, if I learn about them a little bit more, um, if I know they keep a picture of their daughter in their jacket pocket, you know, like these are all things that are going to make me feel really, really bad to be cruel to them. Right. Um, and eventually it's just like,
00:48:38
Speaker
I don't want to stereotype it, but eventually it does kind of get to like, this game is probably just meant for seconds or something like that. Right. Like, um, and those aren't really the type of games I think I would play again. They don't show up that often. So it's hard to say. Um, cause I could say like favorite violent game.
00:49:00
Speaker
pretty easily. like I like Doom. Doom's a very violent game. Doom's great. You don't kill innocent people in Doom though. No, they're they're literally demons. So there's actually, the the thing I could, I didn't play this section of the game, but this actually I think answers your question, is there's a Duke Nukem 3D, or Duke Nukem Forever.
00:49:23
Speaker
Right. um We don't talk about that much because people don't talk about it that much because it wasn't that great of a game. But one of the reasons is they actually they have a scene where ah Duke is like stereotypical macho chauvinistic, terrible individual, like girl on each arm, like lesbians, that's hot, you know, type guy. Right. And um there's literally a scene late in the game where ah the two like women who, I think at some point it's he implied they both give them like a blowjob or something like that. It's such a weird game. Anyways, but like late in the game, they're both like infested by the alien invaders and um they're blocking the path. They're basically like grown into this pillar. And the only way that you can progress
00:50:19
Speaker
is to kill them. You destroy the pillar. And Duke's like, oh, it's like such a shame to have to do this or whatever. Something like stupid, something really, really dumb. And it's like, ugh, that's gross. like ah that's That's bad to like put in your game.
00:50:35
Speaker
um And that's like that's that's an example of something that's like if the game was like that in more than just a single instance. And again, I didn't play this. I just heard about this, the scene like it would bother me. Right. That's the cruelty thing. um Kratos does that in the old God of War games. I was going to say, I remember you talking about I forget who, but like basically puts a lady in a two gears to like keep a door open or something. Yes. Yeah. Kratos and the um
00:51:07
Speaker
ah What's the word concubine of Poseidon? um Yeah, and he he kills her in an absolutely brutal fashion. um Because he's a douchebag and he really, really is in the old games. And that's the type of thing where like, like that bothers me, you know? That's the line for me, I think. I think it's a fair line. Like,
00:51:38
Speaker
But I can understand the importance of occasionally having something like that in the game if it's not to make the player um celebrate it, but rather to make them uncomfortable, right? Like, if that if the intent in that scene wasn't like, Kratos is such an awesome, unstoppable force that even a woman cannot stop him, like, whatever, if instead it was like,
00:52:05
Speaker
he's not redeemable. You, you, you people out there who thought that he was going to be saving like the damsel in this situation, he's literally using her body to hold the door open. Um, stop worshiping this guy, right? Like if that was the take, I could kind of understand it more from a storytelling perspective, but I don't know.
Violence Enhancing Game Narratives
00:52:26
Speaker
You know, I mean, I think like you were saying, um, it is, it's very much an action game. So I think the angle is just,
00:52:36
Speaker
him doing crazy violent shit as he fights his way up. Yeah. Um, yeah. Really kind of the first Hades game, huh? Well, but i mean arguably the protagonists for, for Hades are a little bit more likable than, um, than Kratos. But, well, yeah. and I mean, super giant just, they don't have,
00:53:02
Speaker
Oh, any type of ultra violence, I think all it's kind of like. um But their character writing is so great and so deep that if they were to ever add it into the game is like, ah hey, ah here's like the last installment. um You can kill this one person and like it's going to linger. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. um They would make it hit. Yeah.
00:53:25
Speaker
Like, they deal with loss in their games, but not like you're the perpetuator of cruelty or loss against another person. Like, we talk about the instance in Bastion towards the end of the game. Spoilers for Bastion has been out for fucking 30 years. We had a spoiler alert in the Bastion episode 30 years ago, so...
00:53:46
Speaker
Uh, but when you are carrying Zolt, I think it's his name, something like that. I want to say Zuko and that's so wrong. When you're carrying the guy whose name starts with Z Zool. Um, and like everybody stopped shooting at you. Uh-huh.
00:54:04
Speaker
It's it has impact because it's a juxtaposition from the rest of the game, right? Yeah. They're pulling that subversion thing and it has impact. Like if you have music and then you stop it, there's like now a major absence and you feel it. Yeah. Right.
00:54:23
Speaker
It's such a good scene, too. Like there's that enemy as you're walking for slow movement because you're carrying this guy. There's one enemy who starts shooting you again and literally just gets gunned down in the back by his friend because they're like, nope, you're not doing that. um It's such a good thing. An undertale like the the first time many people face Toriel, they kill Toriel because Again, gamified experience, right? Yeah. But for the people who are paying attention and like you see her face change that like she's sad about this and then her projectiles literally you have to dodge into to get hit by at a point. um Again, they avoid you. Yeah, it's like a minor detail, but it shows a lot about her character and her motivations. And again, you don't want to have to do everything in like a sweeping way. You can do it in minor ways.
00:55:21
Speaker
It just depends what you're going for. um That i wouldn't necessarily ever exclude violence from a way of depicting that. Yeah. Or to convey something. um But like Mortal Kombat X is probably, or whatever the latest Mortal Kombat is, Mortal Kombat 1, right? yeah We went back. um is I feel this is just gore porn and it's not for me. Yeah, they they kind of make they make me uncomfortable too. Even modern day me. That's definitely, we talk about like whether it's allowable to let kids play games and stuff like that. Like don't let kids play Mortal Kombat. Like it was never a good idea and it's definitely not a good idea now.
00:56:22
Speaker
um But yeah, I agree with that. And that's not even like I can understand that it's an arcadey type setting there. That's not me personifying characters or like injecting meaning or empathy and stuff. It's just really brutal um and uncomfortable to see some of that brutality. No pun intended. I was going to say.
00:56:48
Speaker
um But yeah, I think there is a niche for it that will always be
Halloween Game Recommendations and Listener Picks
00:56:53
Speaker
there. Yeah. Because name another fighter that does that. Right. I can't. I can't. It's not violent. It's flashy. It's very powerful. Stone power is violent, but it doesn't really have blood and guts. At worst, it has the armor breaking system. So as rounds progress, you can technically knock the clothes off of people. Not all games. Not all games need that. but It'd be very funny if Street Fighter like had their next release and it's like new feature fatality Like did Luke just punch that guy's heart out like what was that? I think they could get away with it If it's like can he crush somebody to death with her thighs? I feel like that's the angle they need to go. They want to like slip it into the game without Yeah
00:57:42
Speaker
Quinn Tarantino definitely loves Street Fighter. like there is There are so many feet in that game. The constantly barefoot character. ah yeah Did you know that ah before he got into filmmaking, he actually was a staffer for many years at Nickelodeon? I would believe that.
00:58:06
Speaker
If anybody hasn't seen the documentary within 2024, that's what I'm referencing. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I definitely would believe that, but yeah, I think there's probably, there's other angles we could take for, for, um, an episode talking about like macabre games and things like that. But like this, this feels like a very organic, um, Oh, I get it up. You know, I get it. Organs, organs. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:58:35
Speaker
Geiger is it no in HR HR GR HR Geiger HR there you go human resources Geiger counter Um, that's the other thing, whereas if things get a little bit too biological, I'm like, I don't really know how much I like this. So there was that game that came out not too long ago, like the first person shooter. Yeah. Can't remember the name of it. I know what you're talking about. I can't remember the name of it. I know it didn't do so great. Yeah. The whole reason it seemed interesting is because everything was so.
00:59:07
Speaker
Visceral as far as like the environment design like and that it was this right? Yeah, but like The the world you're in was like literally alive and had like flesh and bones and it was so I Don't want to say futuristic like oh, this is coming up But like it was such a a foreign thing and so out there that you're like the fuck is this right?
00:59:33
Speaker
Wrong answers only. I'm pretty sure that the title for the game was Jonah and the whale.
00:59:41
Speaker
It's going to bug me a little bit, but yeah, it wasn't that good. I tried it when it was free on Game Pass. um I think some of the story parts might have been broadly interesting. Yeah. But it's one of those things where they don't tell you the story. Can I have to infer it?
01:00:00
Speaker
So I answered the question. You didn't answer the question. So much time has passed. I remember what the question was. Instead, to send us, what is your pick for your Halloween game, 2024? It doesn't have to be a game that came out this year. ill just like No one played a game that came out this year. So as far as things that I've always enjoyed,
01:00:31
Speaker
What's the, I want to say candy crush, but no, it's a correct. and that is it's that's wrong answer to The question of your opinion, Tim Burton, Halloween game candy, something not Tim Burton. Um, so he makes movies.
01:00:49
Speaker
Double giant. Oh, the, oh yeah. Double fine. Double double fine. she Yeah. um The, um, candy quest, right? I think so. yeah but Basically, it's a ah little cute game about a brother and sister on Halloween going and trick-or-treating and then finding out there's some actual monsters at some people's houses.
01:01:10
Speaker
kidnap kids, Alexis, stop. This is not your time to be chiming in everywhere. But every listener's automation system just shut down forever. But it's it's very charming and it has some spooky vibes, but it's all lighthearted. Nothing actually scary. That's good. um As far as scary, spooky, um if you just want a thrill of a ride, I would say.
01:01:37
Speaker
Again, I just don't have names today. You can describe the game. this Little Nightmares 2. OK, that's fine. Because Little Nightmares does a good job of making it feel immersive and uncomfortable. um And also, I think, actually does have a good story. um But it's a like, hey, somebody plays this and other people watch their stream of it type of game.
01:02:03
Speaker
Only one person needs to poop their pants. The rest can live vicariously through other people pooping their pants. That's where I am, to be other people who poop their pants. I'm just living through them.
01:02:16
Speaker
Great answer. Those would be my suggestions. Okay, my answer is Stalker Call of Pripyat. or if you want your fear in the form of will this game even run anymore the first stock and we'll see how the new one comes out it might have already released but i don't think so because it's around Ukraine and for some reason there's some stuff happening over there but um that's all right uh what are your guys's picks for your Halloween games where is your line what is the game that you play and you're like but if it was any more severe I don't think I would be into it um send those in soapstone podcast at gmail dot.com or post them to Facebook if you can facebook dot.com slash soapstone podcast
01:03:07
Speaker
And as always, we'll see you in the next one. Next week's Halloween, bye!