Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about finding hope in the midst of life's disappointments. We resonate with the powerlessness that Jesus' first followers experienced as they waited between His crucifixion on Friday and His rising on Sunday morning.
Speaker: We feel led to bring light and goodness into a world that aches and wonders when relief will come. Here you'll find no easy answers, just honest conversations about actual pain through the lens of a suffering God.
Speaker: I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor based in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a counseling intern and family law mediator. Join us as we wait together for more.
Speaker: Hi, welcome back to the Surviving Saturday podcast. We've taken a lengthy break to tend to some other things, and also I've been sitting with the question of what does it mean to be a Christian in a world like the one we're living in right now?
Speaker: It's not a new world, but it is a pretty contentious world. And I hear people using the name of Jesus to endorse very different behaviors and viewpoints and And it's left me really thoughtful. And so I've wondered, what does it mean to know Jesus, to live and love like the one who gave his life for the world? And so I sat down with four people who are doing work that I consider really important and valuable in the times we're living in. So I hope that you'll enjoy this four-part series. I know that there will be things that are said or viewpoints endorsed that you may not agree with, but I think it's good for us to listen to different voices and be challenged, not always have our minds changed, but to open our perspectives and and to open maybe the possibility of what it really does mean to love Jesus. I know that I'm personally really confused right now. So I hope you'll enjoy this and see what God does.
Speaker: Take care. Welcome back, everybody. i am here today with a special guest. Amanda Held Opelt. Hi, Amanda. Hi, so good to be with you this morning.
Speaker: So good to be with you. Amanda lives just outside of Boone, North Carolina. She's a mountain girl, um an author, a songwriter, serves in worship and teaching in her local church.
Speaker: um Amanda, what would you say to introduce yourself? Well, I'm in that stage of life where I feel like a lot of my ah time and energy is wrapped up in my kids. They're really young. They're little and require, ah yeah, just a lot of attention. And it's really beautiful and it's really exhausting. like most good things in life. ah it will ah chew you up and spit you out, but give be the most life giving thing you've ever done all at the same time. It's yeah completely mysterious paradox. um So yeah, when I think of who who am I? I'm like, well, I'm definitely a mom. And that's a lot of of what I do. But yeah, I kind of have my hands at a lot of little things. I'm ah
Speaker: do some work at my church in a teaching and worship capacity. I do some writing. And um right now I'm pretty focused on my studies. Just started a master's in Appalachian studies up here at Appalachian State. Learn a little bit more about this place that I love and call home. So that's, yeah, that's what I tell people when they ask what I do Yes. Yes. Now you have written how many books? I know one's coming out in November, but how many are already on bookshelves?
Speaker: Sure. Yeah, I'm at the like, I've written two and a half books stage because I'm just finishing the edits for the third book. But yeah, two books that I published 2022 and 2023. And those are actually books that I had been writing for quite a while actually before they were published. The second book that I published entitled Holy Unhappiness, God, Goodness and the Myth of the Blessed Life. I had actually been working on that one for a really, really long time. It ended up getting published second because we felt like a book on grief was a little bit more relevant for COVID landscape that we were in. So A Hole in the World, Finding Hope Through Rituals of Grief and Healing was published first.
Speaker: And then I published Holy Unhappiness. So our middle daughter found A Hole in the World and gave it to me for Christmas the year it came out. What a gift to the world. But it also um included your own grief. around the loss of your sister, right?
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That was really kind of the, um, the impetus for the writing of the book. I, I sometimes tell people that I i process things academically first. Before I process them, um you know, emotionally, I start with my head and then move to the heart. And and i after my sister passed away, really suddenly, you know, she had been this healthy, thriving, the 37-year-old woman with two small kids. And um she just became sick with the flu and a cascade of other
Speaker: um issues presented. And then the course of about a month, she passed away. And, you know, again, kind of a mysterious death in the sense that it was like it wasn't anything we saw coming. And it was this, so like I said, kind of cascading medical events that that just led to eventually her death. And I was really disoriented in my own life. You know, everything that had felt sure and true and safe suddenly felt really unsafe and chaotic. um She was just this real cornerstone in my life, my only sibling, my older sibling.
Speaker: And so again, like I said, I tend to lead with my head. And and i I started just thinking about grief as a process because I felt like I just didn't really have any tools to help me absorb what I had gone through. And so I started to be curious. I'm like, well, people have been dying for centuries now.
Speaker: You know, this ah death is not new. This is it. I am not the first person to go through this. Surely there have been ways that humans have figured out to help them, you you know, integrate this new new life and integrate grief. And I found out that in centuries past that people really did have this robust array of grief rituals that they walked through communally to help people um in the aftermath of these kind of losses and many cultures still do today. So I kind of went on this investigative journey to find out why had, why the Western world lost its grief rituals, you know? um And so that I, I started taking notes. I mean, I spent a lot of time with the Appalachian State Library um and I started just taking notes and journaling about it. And my agent, I talked to her and i was like, it, you know COVID hit in the midst of all of that. And I thought, would this be helpful for other people to read um just what I've learned? And and that's kind of how the book came to be.
Speaker: Yeah. Your sister was a cornerstone for you, but for a lot of others of us with her writings and her wrestling. with faith and with theology. And I know she has personally helped me find my way in times where I felt great confusion.
Speaker: about who is God, what is my faith about, um some of the rigid structures that I had been inside of. And so she offered um a pathway to a freedom within the goodness of God to me, I think is how would say it.
Speaker: Yeah. um What are the, you know, as we think about her before we get more into you, What are the things that linger with you on a regular basis about Rachel?
Speaker: As I'm hearing you talk, I'm just thinking about like what a safe place she was to land for so many people. She offered this like... It's like she provided this little room that people could come to and just be themselves with all of their thoughts and questions and doubts.
Speaker: And she wrote so much about faith. But for me personally, she provided that for all sorts of things in my life. You know, whether it be like, um you know, what should I major in or what should i do with my life? Or does what why what about this boy? I have a crush. Like whatever whatever it was. what Motherhood. You know, i had just become a mom when she died and she had helped me really process what it was to be – Starting out on that journey, she provided just this safe, listening, authentic, real space to just be in the messiness and mystery and beauty of your life.
Speaker: And I often, when I think about Rachel and I think when people talk to me about her, and it happens all the time, you know I literally will be walking down the street and a stranger will pull me aside and say, i so appreciate your work but and your sister's work. And they'll talk to me about my sister and how she really helped them stay close to Jesus in yeah in the midst of even their own doubts and griefs. and And when people tell me that, I'm just so thankful because
Speaker: That genuineness that they saw in her, that authenticity that they saw in her, that was not a marketing scheme. It was not a brand. It was not this curated thing that she was doing on social media. You know, authenticity is a real currency these days, I think, especially on social media.
Speaker: um Raw realness, you know, that's what gets the algorithm really clicking in your direction. For her, it was just who she was. And I'm just so thankful that when people tell me, wow, your sister was amazing, I'm not having to pause and say, well, yeah, if you really knew her or yeah, that's who she was in public. She's a little different in private.
Speaker: Not at all. She was who she was. um One person, one sweet, beautiful, caring soul. And I just got the privilege of being up close and personal with that. Yeah.
Speaker: So, you know, What, but you know, I find it so intriguing that she gave us the freedom to wrestle with deep doubt while being this soft pillow land on.
Speaker: And then with her abrupt death, I know did a lot in many of us, particularly I'm assuming for you, her sister. And so did you find yourself even drawing on her work to get through the absence of her?
Speaker: Honest answer. i couldn't. I mean, yeah I, I didn't because reading her words was so painful in the years just after her death, you know, but in the last, you know, it's been almost seven years now.
Speaker: um Is that right? Six or seven years. um Yeah. Seven. And I think now, that you just have a little bit of space. And i I like to tell people time does not heal all wounds. Like you never graduate from grief. It's not like there's anything like closure, but time does provide you with the skills to be able to carry the grief that you build the muscles to carry the burden of grief over time. And so you're able to look at photos and read her words and watch videos of her
Speaker: without it feeling like your insides are being sliced open, you know? um And so now, yeah. So I love that question because i I find that now I'm able to go back to her words, especially for this, I think, cultural moment, this political moment. And I'm trying to figure out ways to show up with conviction, but also with grace. And I find that like,
Speaker: okay, Rachel made all sorts of space for like, I'm not sure the answers on this, but I know this isn't the way or um all sorts of space for having conversations, even with people you disagreed with. And so I'm finding, i guess the tension that she allowed, she she made, she she had such a tolerance for friction in some way, in the sense of like, This isn't making sense or our beliefs aren't lining up, but I want to sit at a table with you and talk. And that's true for grief, right? Like it's like it's friction, it's discomfort. It's it's it. Yeah, it feels really um difficult. and And I feel like her courage to sit in that space of tension is giving me courage now.
Speaker: Yes, I love that. Thank you. You know, as you said that about I know this isn't the right way. Don't know what the right way is, but it's not this one. um Part of what I wanted to talk to you about today is the question of what does it mean to love and live like Jesus in this particular moment in time? In many ways, this moment isn't new.
Speaker: um History has been here before, it but we as individuals have not been in this same place before. And I'm finding it really daunting to figure out what I'm supposed to do, I guess, for lack of a more sophisticated way to ask the question. But to show up with the love, the arms and hands, the feet of Jesus, what do you think that looks like now?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's a great point. I love that you say like, this isn't exactly new, you know, it's not like societies haven't fractured like this in the past. They have. And ah gosh, I am really enjoying watching the Ken Burns American Revolution, ah you know, docuseries. It's providing all sorts of context that is actually giving me a lot of like comfort. It's like, okay, yep, we've been here before. Things have been really, really rough before. um Our history is very complex as a nation.
Speaker: But what is a little bit different and what I think we're all trying to figure out how to navigate is just actually how we communicate with one another is actually really unprecedented with, you know, kind of the meme-ified world and, you know, the the way that we're able to argue with avatars online, on social media, as opposed to face-to-face. um the way we can dehumanize people online and then just swipe away and move on All of these really complex issues being reduced to soundbites. That is, that's rather new. And so that, that's where, i mean, you asked me how, how are we supposed to do that? Gosh, I don't know. I think if I knew then I'd probably be a bestselling author or something. um But, but i I think for me, something, a word that has come to mind a lot, and maybe this is because our church is,
Speaker: is working our way through Proverbs. um But it's it's this idea of yieldedness of like, you know, you don't have always be the first person to say something.
Speaker: you don't have to come up with the next quick quip or, you know, online takedown. Watch, listen, observe, pray, think, but then respond with conviction where it's needed. And i think I think just that, like I kind of have this rule for myself that if I'm going to say something online, I'm going to give it 24 hours before I post it. Because I just want to think about my words and be really careful and precise with my words. That to me feels um pretty profoundly countercultural right now because I think the speed – and reaction um is is really kind of the cultural current right now. And I'm trying to swim against the current of that. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes use online spaces to speak about what I think is going on that's unjust or or not not right. But then the other piece is that I try to remember, like, be in your embodied life as well, that that posting something on the internet or, you know,
Speaker: raging on the internet can feel a lot like activism. um But probably the best thing you can do for this country and this community right now is sit down at a table with somebody you don't agree with and have a conversation.
Speaker: And and i I think this is one of those things that's hard because everybody has to kind of gauge their their own tolerance and safety for disagreement in situations like that. Because there are some people that hold values in in this country right now that are are really dangerous. And there are people that are more profoundly affected by those dangerous ideas than I am. I have a lot of privilege as a white woman in this country. And so I think everybody, you know, I'm not saying everybody needs to sit down with the person that hates you. i'm I'm not trying to say that. But I am just saying where you can and when you can,
Speaker: Have conversations with people who see things differently than you build understanding. The goal isn't always to convince them to come to your side. The goal might be to understand how they're thinking the way they do, how they got to where they are, what, is what experiences led to this moment. And then you might be able to meet them in a way that's actually more compassionate and convincing and let them hear you. i mean, this whole idea of a soft answer turns away wrath. I,
Speaker: I believe that. Now, again, I think there's time for anger. There's time for rage. There's time for speaking with real conviction. But where you can create softness, where you can create welcome, do it. Sit down at a table where you can. And that, to me, is how I'm trying to operate in this moment. though My strategy might change. I don't know. But that's that's how I'm trying to be right now. Yes.
Speaker: You know, I'm thinking as you're talking about, you know, in counseling psychology, you have an urge to act and you've got the action that you do.
Speaker: um But there's this tiny little space in between. Oftentimes we jump right over it and we are what we would say is impulsive. And so I think that's with like the loud typing on the, I'm going to tell them what I think.
Speaker: right there im like right no But if if we can have the humility, the wherewithal, the personal awareness to create a gap between the urge, like I like your 24 hours and what we say or what we do, there's more room for convicted civility.
Speaker: Like this, like I want to speak with conviction, but in a civilized way, remembering that we are all image bearers. Oh yeah. love that. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And so i think ah what I want to ask you after you've said, like, i love what you said What would get us to the place, Amanda, where we could sit down with someone who's different? Okay, so let's look at the immigration issue. Either, you know, the person is person A is saying, we got to close the borders. We've got criminals in here. You know, how do they get to where they can sit with a person that says, Jesus has called us specifically to love the orphaned? And the other way around, like, how do we get to the humility where we can at a table?
Speaker: Gosh. And that this is, and I'm saying all sorts of caveats. I just think they're needed, but it like, I'm not saying that these aren't low stakes issues. If that makes sense. I'm not saying like, well, let's just all try to get along and find common ground. And I have a, i I have a friend, you know, i have a friend whose brother was detained for six months um For no justifiable reason, just because he's an immigrant. he was he He's here legally, green card holder. I won't get into the details of their case because i'm you know everyone many immigrants in this country are at risk right now. yeah but So this is not low stakes. I mean, there is danger for people surrounding, very real active danger for people surrounding some of these issues. But just like you said, i think um even the person who is most,
Speaker: um you know, kind of to me on board with violent, dangerous policies, even the person who's the most extreme in the other direction is still an image bearer of God. Right. Right. So, so.
Speaker: How do i first off, I got to absorb that. I've got to, you know, make sure that saturates my thinking to some degree. um And also, we all sometimes go down paths in which we are deceived, in which we believe things that aren't true, in which we get kind of caught up in a world because we have our own fears, we have our own experiences. And so I might not be empathetic to their opinion, but I could maybe, maybe be empathetic to their story and how they got here.
Speaker: And when, when you look at a person, not as just a, an avatar on the internet or not just as like, well, they're from that party or they're, they're red, they're blue, they're whatever, you know, whatever kind of political category you want to put on them. When you look at them as like, they are a story. They are a human, an image bearer that has lived with a story How might i I connect? Because my ultimate goal would be for them to see the humanity in me and then for them to see the humanity in maybe the people who they don't realize theyre um you know the policies they're supporting are hurting. i think what the world needs right now are people that know how to humanize one another. Yes. And um and so ah
Speaker: I don't, I think I'm probably not answering your question directly, but like, how do we get to a point where we can sit at a table with people? Like I said, some conversations are dead on arrival and I yeah don't know how far we can get, but I actually believe it is my true belief that most people in this country are more towards the middle than the media would lead us to believe. yeah And so if we can trust that, if we can trust that, like, okay, there is maybe, maybe not a whole lot of common ground. Maybe it's like,
Speaker: one square inch of common ground. What is that? And can we build a conversation off of that? And again, that's not because I'm like, oh, I just want to all get along. Right. it's prag It's pragmatic. I mean, I do in some ways want to compel them with the way that I see things, but I just don't think we're going to get there if we start in attack mode.
Speaker: Right. Because then the defenses come up, right? We back each other into a corner. Right. So, yeah, I mean, there's so much, I think, as humans that we tend to migrate toward certainty. I know the issue. I know the truth with a capital t And therefore, this is my stance. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And so I often wonder, you know, what would be at stake if there was less certainty with, with you know, some of the places were dogmatic?
Speaker: What, um you know... would that look more like Jesus? Like, what do you think?
Speaker: The big question. Speaking of a storyteller, you know, and in in Jesus, it's so, you know, it's so isn't it interesting that when Jesus... was here on earth. Okay. So here's God walking around in flesh. This is our big moment. is our big chance, right? To get all the answers to our burning questions.
Speaker: Jesus did not present a theological, systematic theological textbook. That's not what he gave us. He gave us stories and he gave us presents.
Speaker: and And, and I'm not saying that means Jesus didn't say anything of substance. And I'm also not a person that believes in you know, all truth is relative or whatever. There are things that I believe we can be pretty, pretty sure of.
Speaker: But I think that there's a lot of open handedness in some ways in the way that Jesus interpreted the law. It seems that like people really mattered to him, that people's stories mattered to him. Like in that moment, i think of that woman caught in adultery if you stuck to the letter of the law, would have been totally justified to stone her.
Speaker: And Jesus said, what would it be like if you instead looked at yourself and said, where where am i guilty? Where am I culpable in some of these injustices?
Speaker: And what would it be like if he moved towards her instead and said, hey, stop sinning. well Follow me. Walk with me. you know, ah instead of this like bringing this hammer down of of certainty of like, no, you don't deserve to live anymore. So I think a part of it to me is just like.
Speaker: are you willing to continue in relationship maybe when things don't fit inside the the theological boxes, you know, and maybe just, gosh, it's that old axiom, right? And i know i'll I'll probably get it wrong, but, you know, in um in the essentials, unity in the non-essentials charity, you know, in all things love, that whole thing. So just, I'm learning in life to maybe um shorten my list of essentials.
Speaker: Yes. Not but by my own, because of my own wisdom, but because I think, because actually what I see in scripture, you know, ah what what really matters the most, you know?
Speaker: Right. It does seem as if we have added a lot to the essentials along the way. Yeah. Use those as um binds or vice grips.
Speaker: Yeah. in places that maybe were not meant to be bound so tightly. Yeah. We were talking in our small group last night about greed. Greed is like an essential in Proverbs. You know, it's like talking about greed is...
Speaker: something that was just so important in the book of Proverbs. And it's something we do not talk about at all right now. So you can see how selective we get with like what we think Jesus really wants us to be listening to, what we think Jesus really wants us to be paying attention to. And it's often just not in alignment in terms of word count. you know, if you're talking word count, the protection of the refugee and the foreigner comes up so many times in scripture.
Speaker: And we haven't, we often don't emphasize that greed comes up all the time in scripture. We have no idea how to talk about greed in this country. um And so, I yeah i think just.
Speaker: Jesus himself was a refugee, right? he had to flee. yeah You know, he had to flee when Herod was killing all the babies, the baby boys, yeah you know? And so, yeah, I think sometimes again, in that place of impulsivity,
Speaker: born largely with fear, we develop perspectives that may not be based on the truth. Yeah. I love hearing you talk about that space, that impulse space, because I think a lot of life happens there, like or at least a lot of life's consequences a result of how we behave in that space. You know what i mean?
Speaker: And I wonder, sorry, I don't mean to ask you a question. I'm flipping things around, but I'm wondering from your perspective, like what are some practical ways that we can put a pause when we find ourselves in that space, feeling ah demanding certainty, needing certainty, and then from that supposed certainty acting in rage and dehumanization. do you see what i mean? How do yeah we put a pause when we find ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally in that space?
Speaker: Well, I think first we got to learn to recognize we're right on the cliff of the, okay. And so um when you were talking about like, um this might've been before we started recording, but embodied practices and the land and baking and like how am I connected to all of creation? You know, i'm adding some words to your mouth there, but <unk>ve I've got to know what's happening in my own body because that's the origin site of the emotions that will then freak out as my reactions and my responses. And so I've got to be aware, like, Oh, a lot energy is rising up. You know, like, like I'm on the verge of a big reaction because something is being threatened here.
Speaker: Something feels at tremendous stake. The game seems very high stakes. And so I've got to recognize what those tells in my own self are and find a way to um woo my body into pausing, whether that's deep breath, whether that's like, you know, I've learned in the last few years, this idea of listening prayer.
Speaker: And one of the things that I have learned in you know doing it in a group, whereas a friend might share, and then we pause for a designated period of two to three minutes.
Speaker: I've learned in that much of what I was originally going to say really didn't need to be said. So after the pause, I'm like, oh God's brought so many other thoughts now. I think that was just going to be my own ah wise little thought, you know, it may have not really been very beneficial to the listener.
Speaker: And so if there's something akin to that, can I train myself that everything is not so urgent? Everything does not have to be spoken right now. um And maybe it doesn't need to be spoken at all, but being taking great care to to watch and observe the energy rise in my body. What is it I feel is threatened?
Speaker: And then what can I do to slow the response? Yes. those your mind That's so good. i i i really appreciate you saying that. And that's something I honestly, this is a space my own counselor and I are working through for me. And, you know, it's it's it's such a real there are obviously those of us who may be from a mental health perspective struggle more with yeah how to.
Speaker: recognize and and not act from that space, but it's a reality for all of us. It's a reality for all of us. And, yeah and it is to me, if we could, if we could learn to listen to our bodies and listen to ourselves, I just wonder what that would do for the dialogue. I wonder what that would do for our relationships in this particularly contentious moment, you know? but Yep.
Speaker: Yes. And I think, you know, just considering, like you said a minute ago, Where did I get to my position? What has led me here and why must I hold so tightly to it?
Speaker: Yeah, that's right. What is it that I'm at the core afraid of? Yeah. Yep. That's right. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually show some compassion towards yourself too. Yes.
Speaker: Of like, okay, I, my story has, has made it so that this feels really scary for me. This feels really chaotic to me.
Speaker: And just take a moment to be compassionate towards yourself. Yes. Yes. That we didn't make these things up. um I think what happens next though, is almost the harder thing. So if I laid down my dogma, then I have to contend with the unpredictability of God.
Speaker: I know what he's going do. So sometimes I think I got to take it in my own hands and I call I'm following God. It may just be I'm serving Wendy's current desire.
Speaker: um It may be more than that, but you know, wrestling with an unpredictable God is scary stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you navigate that?
Speaker: Yeah. You know what? It is both difficult and it is freeing. Uh-huh. And I think there is a freedom that comes in saying, i don't have to figure this out or I don't, I actually don't have to know this about God. We have this, i think part of the reason the religion of Christianity is so appealing to me is that God has chosen to reveal so much of God's self to us. through the word, through the incarnate Christ.
Speaker: We have a lot of information about who God is, how God operates. And we're even told that we get to have this intimate relationship with God. Okay. But I think that what that has become maybe in our minds is then I get to know and understand and predict everything about what God does and how God does it, what God thinks.
Speaker: And And i it's just not true. I think like God's ways are a million miles higher than ours. And there that can feel really, really scary to suddenly feel like, well, my close friend is dying of cancer and I don't understand and God's not showing me God's redemptive purpose in this right now. That feels really scary. or this person...
Speaker: is doing this thing. And I don't know if they're going to be judged and sent to hell or sent to heaven. you know, all of these, you know, like it's kind of nice to think that you know what all the outcomes are going to be and what everyone's destiny is going to be. And all the redemptive purposes get tied up in this neat bow. That's really comforting. But it's a ton of work. It is a ton of work to maintain all of those systems and all of those those those systems of judgment and certainty. And there's a whole, whole lot of freedom in saying, i don't know, and I'm okay with that. I actually don't, I'm not sure how to respond to this, and that's okay.
Speaker: You know, I think. A lot of people are trying to kind of say, well, this is what God's doing because of this you know new war in Iran. ah This is what's happening geopolitically. And then they're pulling in the book of Revelations and they want an explanation. They want the puzzle pieces to fit together really tightly.
Speaker: that might feel like control. It's really exhausting. Yes. And there's a lot of freedom and a lot of rest and saying, I don't know what's happening. i I don't know what, how this fits into the big picture of all of God's purposes, God's goodness. I don't know.
Speaker: I don't know. Yes. Watch and pray. i i agree with you. Yeah. Watch and pray. I agree with you that it is equal parts freeing as much as it is scary because to not know everything about what God is going to do and to reserve. There's a lot of mystery about God. I can't pin it down is also freeing. And I'm thinking, okay, I have been married almost 33 years.
Speaker: I'm still learning things about my husband. And we met when we were 14, but it is probably a few times a month where one of us will go, Really? I never knew that. Okay. lay yeah when I know. I know.
Speaker: Yeah. You experienced the same. Totally. Yeah. and so I'm like, we are continuing to get to know each other, but that actually adds to the love because there's this new excitement and interest and intrigue and novelty. And I'm like, it's another part of you I didn't know. Yeah. But somehow I'm the God of the universe.
Speaker: I feel the need. to pin them down, you know? And, and I think it's because when humans are afraid, the antidote seems to be control and certainty.
Speaker: And so right how do I learn to trust a God that I, I can't describe fully, I can't predict. And I think that's where to me, faith is a gift, faith being akin to trust,
Speaker: trusting in his goodness when it does not make sense to me. Even some things 20 years later, still don't understand whether that had to be a thing, but the gift of, I trust you, but like I'm in the mud, caked and dirty.
Speaker: I've been wrestling to try to find you here. Right. And ah you know what I love about what you just said is that I'm thinking about what what we were talking about empathy for people who see things different than you. Now that I've kind of moved on to have a little bit more comfort in uncertainty and not having all the answers and releasing control, you can get pretty angry with people who are imposing their certainty on you. And what you just said is I think and another great reason to demonstrate compassion towards people who are still insisting on some certainty on on things and control.
Speaker: It's because it's really scary not to have that. And they're they're so often animated by by by fear and a loss of control. And actually I can be really empathetic to that and I can be really sympathetic to that. yeah and And to circle back, I think to to grief I think that that's another one of those things that has been really helpful to me is, you know, people, a lot of people tried to tell me what Rachel's doing right now, you know, in heaven, what the afterlife looks like for her. And well and it's like, there's actually a whole lot of mystery in scripture about what's what's next. Yeah. Yeah. The things I feel certain on is that God is loving, God is good, God is just, and there is there's going to be a some beautiful presence that awaits us.
Speaker: But what exactly that looks like, I don't know. and And I think a lot of people, in an effort to comfort me, tried to tell me exactly what that was going to look like. And I i have actually found that there's there's actually a real peace that comes when you say, I'm not sure.
Speaker: I'm not sure what the great reunion will look like. I'm not sure what she's doing right now. I'm not sure that she's looking down on me and smiling on me every time I do something. But I i do know that I can trust my sister with the presence of God. Yes. And that's what I'm, yeah that's what I'm, that's my great hope, you know.
Speaker: Yeah, I can trust her and trust her to the presence of God. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen. I mean, to thank you so much. You're such a delight to talk to. um You've got a new book coming out in November called yeah Provisions. And you said it's a little different angle from your past writing. Tell us a little bit about what the nature of the book is.
Speaker: Sure. Well, I think it's different in that it's just really, really rooted in place. And part of part of my journey of healing has been like figuring out how to be in my body and be where I am and be fully present. And um it's it's a bit though like a hole in the world in that it uses kind of my study of culture and tradition as a storytelling mechanism for kind of my own healing. So it's really a book about healing my relationship with food, you know, growing up in the... the Christian diet culture of the 80s and 90s and 2000s. It's like healing a relationship with food, healing relationship with but with the body, and figuring out what does it mean to be an embodied person in this world as a person of faith, stewarding the place that I live, stewarding creation. And so I tell that story by examining the the various kind of traditional food ways of of Appalachia and So I think I was telling you, I always have a trouble remembering the subtitle because we just landed on it, but it's um finding home to the food folklore of ah the Appalachian table.
Speaker: Oh. I love it. And you have done retreats in the past. I think there may be one coming up, but around food and faith. That sounds like F3, food and fitness and family, but you've done it theology, right? Food and faith.
Speaker: and prayer. So tell us a little bit about what those have been. Well, I have the privilege of partnering with um my colleague, Kendall Vanderslice, who a, she's a proper food scholar now. So she's got, she's got the pedigree and has spent years as a baker and and a cook and, and seminary degree and of masters in, um you know, food history and all of, all of that. And so she does these beautiful retreats where she calls people to um come and to to learn to bake and baking as a way of praying and being present with God and present in your body. And I get to kind of tag along and do some of the music. And so we're we're going to be doing another one of those in October this year. so the dates, a few details still forthcoming, but we'll be sure and have that up on my various social media. so
Speaker: Great. Yeah. My spiritual director taught me over again, how to make sourdough. um I did it when my kids were a little, and then she taught me a couple years ago. and I have been touched and done some writing around how the process of making bread has really made the resurrection of Jesus come a alive through the life and the death of the process of the making of the bread.
Speaker: um And so I just find it a profound way to embody a prayer, even just the physical act. um And not to mention, you have to live very slowly if you're going to make sourdough. Because there's a lot of time to wait.
Speaker: Right. Well, and I always laugh when people are like, oh, so you do these baking retreats. I'm like, well, I tag along because I have yet to bake a successful loaf of sourdough. My husband's a great baker, actually. um he he He's the bread baker in our family, and I'm just still learning. um but But it's a beautiful, you know, bread shows up so often in scripture. it's It's used in all sorts of ways for all sorts of metaphor. it is It's through bread that Jesus asked us to remember everything. his yeah bodily death and his resurrection through, through bread and through wine. And so it, that seems really worth paying attention to. And I love how in these retreats, Kendall kind of walks us through the science of bread baking and how, how illustrative that is of the spiritual realm, you know? So. Yes.
Speaker: Well, I, I'm glad that we talked about that because I'd love for people to come. I'm hoping to go um How can people find your work, Amanda?
Speaker: Yes. I, you know, they can go to my website, amandaheldopelt.com. I write um monthly on Substack. I know you're supposed to be writing like weekly on Substack and I simply don't have time with the and the studies. I'll can write whatever you It's your Substack. Yep. That's right. I can do what i want. I can do what I want. It's free. It's a free Substack. That's you can find me there.
Speaker: And um I'm on Instagram um sometimes at Amanda Heldo Pelt. So you you can find me there as well. And that's that's probably the best place to get all the updates on, you know, what I've what i've been writing and what I'm up to.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, thank you, not just for the conversation, but for the goodness and the love that you take the intentional time to pour into the world. I'm very grateful for you.
Speaker: Thank you. Thanks for the wonderful conversation. You're welcome. Bye, Amanda. The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling, teaching, and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time.
Speaker: Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
Speaker: and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net.
