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Special episode: a student's perspective with Logan Miller and Kenley
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Podcast Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton and Crystal Frommer. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators, both in and out of the classroom.
00:00:21
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools, and districts, or education at large. The Learner-Centered Spaces podcast is now a member of the Teach Better Podcast Network.
Special Episode with Logan Miller
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to today's special episode that is student-focused rather than educator-focused.
00:00:49
Speaker
Our guest today is Logan Miller. He is a student from Long Island, New York. He wants to be a part of creation and implementation of environmental policy in the coming years. Logan likes to stream on Twitch, play chess avidly, and enjoys writing. We are so excited to have our college student, Logan Miller on the show today.
Logan's Perspective on Being a Good Student
00:01:15
Speaker
Morning Lo, it's so awesome to have you on with us. It's a little secret to those who are listening. Logan is my son. I'm going to have a proud mom moment while all this is going on. But part of the reason I wanted to have Lo on the show is that
00:01:33
Speaker
He has always had a very determined drive to be a learner, but school has not always been so good to him. So on that note, Lo, can you tell us a little bit about what it means to be a good student to you? I think at least where I go to school at Stony Brook University, a lot of people think being a good student is all about grades.
00:02:01
Speaker
But in my opinion, I feel like being a good student is being attentive, showing up to class, really trying to absorb the information. And my biggest thing is I think just participation, really. I feel like if you participate in discussion, then you're at the core of being a good student.
Preference for Discussion-Based Classes
00:02:20
Speaker
What do you look for in a class or a learning environment as a student? Well, the first thing I could say I don't like is
00:02:29
Speaker
just straight like reading off a presentation kind of rambling that that happens a lot in my experience. I feel like the more engaged I am the more I enjoy the class and that really comes from discussions. I really like discussion-based learning and I also enjoy
00:02:53
Speaker
It's it really comes down to how the teacher can get the kids involved because most of the time I myself I I find I drift off once in a while, you know, if the teacher is just rambling on is hard to stay focused. So if if I can stay locked in to the conversation, then I think I get a lot more out of it.
00:03:18
Speaker
So to that end, can you give an example of a time when you were in a class where you were like super engaged and you really felt like you learned a lot from the class and you connected with the teacher? Uh, actually Tuesday, I just had one of these kinds of classes. Um, my teacher, he pulls up a slideshow with a bunch of pictures from with different like points that he wants to hit on in the discussion.
00:03:46
Speaker
Throughout the class, you know, we have a reading that we had before the class started so everybody has some general understanding of what we'll be discussing and he'll throw an idea out and the class just bounces around and he uses the presentation and the pictures in the presentation to illustrate what the kids are basically bringing up in the discussion. So it shows a
00:04:11
Speaker
I don't know, cohesiveness between the students and the teacher is not really just someone speaking at a lectern at people. It's more of a, not really a Socratic discussion, but more just kind of a banter, you know? Well, and to that end, do you find that your high school learning prepared you for the kind of learning that you're doing now at Stony Brook?
High School vs. College Engagement
00:04:38
Speaker
I think personally I was prepared, but if you look at what I did in high school now, my high school classes, especially senior year were mainly just people reading off a slideshow. It was very brutal is the best way to put it. I'm an environmental science major and I took environmental science in high school, which was one of my most, I was really excited to take the class.
00:05:06
Speaker
the teacher kind of ruined it by the students never had an opportunity to speak. It wasn't on the teacher's radar. So I feel like that kind of cut the ties between the actual information she was teaching and the interest from my perspective.
00:05:26
Speaker
What you said right there is so important that you said that students didn't get a chance to speak. And I think there's so much depth in what you just said that there's we talk about this on the show a lot and there's a lot going around in professional development and research with with pedagogy and education that we need to give opportunities for our students to speak and to think and to talk to each other.
Advocating for Student Voice in Education
00:05:55
Speaker
and to grapple with the material. So thank you for mentioning that from a student perspective because it's difficult for an educator to give up that control, right? And let the students have a voice, but no matter how difficult it is, it's still extremely important that we do it. So thank you for mentioning that. My question for you, Logan, is how do you like to show what you know? How do you like to demonstrate that you've learned something for the teacher or for your class?
00:06:27
Speaker
So discussions by far my favorite choice, but I'm not great at presenting. So I really, I take the opportunity of presenting information very seriously. I find it to be a very interesting situation. You're kind of put in a place where for me, I have really bad anxiety. So I have to work through that. So I have to really know what I'm talking about. And my biggest strategy, my,
00:06:56
Speaker
Most common strategy when I'm presenting is discussing with the class. If I can get other people involved, it makes my life a lot easier. And I feel like I can connect with other people. So I like to teach, almost, present my information. That's my way of showing understanding. That's wonderful. And I think many students probably have the same feeling as you, that presentation discussion is a great way to share what you know.
00:07:26
Speaker
So now that you've gone through 12 plus years of kindergarten through 12th grade and now you're a university student, I think you're pretty well equipped now to give some advice because of your many years of experience. What advice do you have for a teacher who wants to create a more learner centered space?
00:07:47
Speaker
Well, it's the same as what I'm told when I make a presentation. Keep the words down. Keep it to a few bullet points. Try and focus more on what you can say on your own behalf, not what is given to you. Because at least in high school, a lot of the content we were taught was pre-made presentations and curriculum. And I know there's not much you can do to get around that, but I think
00:08:15
Speaker
creating activities surrounding it instead of using worksheets and just kind of funneling the information back at you because for me I experienced a lot of I read a presentation or I'm taught a presentation and then I am given a worksheet that I just have to resay what the presentation said so I feel like if teachers can
00:08:44
Speaker
utilize writing or utilize discussion based learning or even I really like groups. I find that sometimes groups can be painful because people don't like to participate. But if you can find a balance between class and group discussion, I really think that it's very impactful for the learner. So
00:09:13
Speaker
I think the biggest thing you can do is just engage kids. Because if people are going to be using their phones or they're struggling to stay attentive in class, the best way to get their attention is to be interesting and to engage.
Debate on Cell Phone Use in Class
00:09:34
Speaker
Instead of saying, put your phone on the wall and have the kid fall asleep in class, try and make them actually enjoy the experience.
00:09:43
Speaker
Yes, there's so much debate right now about should cell phones be allowed in schools? And you break up such an interesting point that maybe if the class was more engaging, there was more accountability for the students. Maybe students would be less likely to be attracted to their phone. I mean, that's hard to say. I'm just guessing there because the phones are quite attractive and quite addictive. So I have a question for you that I want to follow up on what you said.
00:10:12
Speaker
Have you heard of the Harkness Method? Do you know of any of your classes in college that are doing that?
00:10:19
Speaker
I've heard of it, but could you remind me what the Harkness Method is? I'm learning more about it. It's a really, really old method. I think it came around in the 1930s. It's almost 100 years old, but it's an idea where students are sitting around a table that is now called the Harkness Table.
00:10:43
Speaker
The teacher is part of this oval shape, and because of the shape of the table, no one is really in the front of the room. There isn't a teacher at the front talking at the students.
00:10:55
Speaker
And the idea of the shape of the table is that everyone is a part of the conversation. So what you were describing sounds very much like hardness to me, that everyone has a voice, everyone's participating. Group work is painful, yes, because you have to be vulnerable and put yourself out there, and that's what hardness does.
00:11:16
Speaker
So again, hardness doesn't necessarily have to be a table. You can sit in any kind of circle, but you were very much describing that method. So I was curious if you'd seen that in your university classes yet. You probably will in the future.
00:11:31
Speaker
Um, I, I've seen it a little bit, but actually in high school, there were a lot of graded, what they called Socratic seminars, which was basically that we arranged the chairs in a circle around the room and everybody had to speak at least once to get their grade, which personally, I didn't really like because most people just wanted to get their one thought out right at the beginning. And then there was no.
00:11:56
Speaker
There was no further discussion. It was just three or four kids talking. I was normally one of those kids. But I think there is a lot of utility to it.
00:12:10
Speaker
I think if you have one of these seminars, but you utilize information or a topic that the students might be more engaged in because I think I did want to I did one unlike Mcbeth, which I'm going to be honest, not to hurt your feelings mom, but.
00:12:29
Speaker
It was it was kind of boring, you know, it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't all that much you could talk about for like 40 minutes in a circle when everybody read the same thing and everybody everybody had the same idea, basically, because they probably looked it up on Google.
00:12:47
Speaker
But if I feel like if you can maybe have like a topic going in and you tell students to do a little research beforehand and then everybody brings their own ideas to the conversation, I think it could really lend to a useful seminar. So you just brought up Logan is to me is really interesting because
00:13:08
Speaker
So Socratic seminars are all about questioning and they're all about discourse. And so I think what's challenging, like, aside from the fact that, like, Macbeth has so much action, like, I mean, it's action packed. And there's psychological drama and regular drama and intrigue and mystery. But
00:13:33
Speaker
Like, so like what I'm curious about is like even the level of questioning and expectation. And I mean, I know the kind of anxieties that you face, but when you think about high school in particular and the percentage of time you spent testing versus having these kinds of discourse related ways to show what you know, I guess what I'm wondering is,
00:14:04
Speaker
As you're thinking about advice you might give teachers, why are tests maybe not the best way to get kids to show what they know?
Critique of Traditional Testing
00:14:16
Speaker
I hate tests. You know this, but obviously the listeners don't. I struggle particularly
00:14:24
Speaker
with test taking because I just I don't know I'll study for extensive periods of time for weeks beforehand and I'll just get to the test and I don't know I have like a panic attack it's what happened last semester in one of my calculus classes it's not a pretty site I'm not I'm not very I don't have I don't have a lot of
00:14:50
Speaker
Strength in my test taking and I think it isn't an accurate way of showing my knowledge on the topic You know, I feel like I know a lot of people who just cram before tests because that's what they think You know, you get all the information right when you need it and then it's gone the second the test ends so I feel like Test taking at least for me is not really I don't find it to be a fair metric because I
00:15:19
Speaker
It's like you learn something for a month, a month and a half and then you basically put it all on the table at once and that could really impact how the rest of your semester looks. Whether you have to basically make up with other exams or if you're chilling and you don't have to really study for the rest if you hit it out of the park on the first go round. I feel like it just, it puts too much emphasis on one
00:15:48
Speaker
one moment in time so i really like writing as writing projects again i i think that a presentation or something that's more drawn out is a more accurate way of showing mastery you know because a test is just if the wording is weird if the
00:16:12
Speaker
If I looked at everything else except this one thing, I'm screwed for a specific concept. It's just tests are very linear. And I think there's more to education than just that.
00:16:32
Speaker
I absolutely, you're absolutely right. We're going to switch gears for just a few minutes. We have a special guest who has joined us. So we've been listening with Logan, who's a university student, but now we have Kenley, who is a fifth grade student who could offer her perspective. So hello, Kenley. How are you?
00:16:55
Speaker
Hi. Hi. Welcome to the podcast. So Kenley, we have a question for you. Can you tell us what a teacher can do to make learning more interesting for the students?
00:17:10
Speaker
I think one way teachers can make learning more interesting for students is by using candy or like other treats during math to help them with solving problems. Another thing they could do is hold our class in a special place like in a courtyard outside out in the commons or in the gym maybe
00:17:35
Speaker
even involve a game at the same time. Another thing teachers could do to make learning fun is allowing us to choose where we sit one day each month. Can you tell me more about choosing where you sit? Why do you think it's important to choose where you sit? Obviously the students would be happy and the teachers can see where like
00:18:04
Speaker
for the next seating chart. They can like see where they can place them. Okay, well thank you for your input. As a teacher, I have been known to give out candy sometimes. I try not to make that a habit. I know students definitely like candy, students of all ages, but I really appreciate the comments that you made about choice and seating and also just changing up the environment, being outside on a nice day or
00:18:34
Speaker
being in the gym or just a different location. Kenley, before you go, this is Star on the other host of the podcast with your aunt. I was wondering if we can't give you candy every day, how do you feel about smelly stickers? My students used to love them. Yeah, I think the students would like smelly stickers.
00:18:58
Speaker
I'm glad. I think even I used to teach high school students and they really enjoyed getting a sticker when they did something well.
00:19:08
Speaker
We always try really hard when it comes to rewarding students to make it something intrinsic, which, you know, candy is good. Who doesn't love a little candy? But we also have to be mindful of how much candy we're giving our kids. Yeah, that's right, and ourselves too. Thank you, Kenley.
00:19:29
Speaker
You're welcome. Okay. So, Lo, if we could bring it back to you for a sec, we are wondering if there are any particular teachers you want to shout out that have made an impact on your learning, the ones that really stand out and why they stand out.
Engaging Teaching Methods
00:19:50
Speaker
Well, currently, I have a teacher, Professor Charbonneau. I really find him to be an interesting guy. His
00:19:58
Speaker
work, his research outside of the classroom is exactly what I'm hoping to do in the future or something similar. I really find that
00:20:09
Speaker
his method of teaching, he's laid back and there's no exams, it's all writing, all of our assessment. It's based on, we read articles that he's found that are often very old or eclectic, stuff that I've never read, which I find very interesting. He always has new book recommendations. So he just, he tries to kind of engage the students
00:20:37
Speaker
outside of the classroom, not only inside. So I really appreciate that. And going back a while, I kind of think I really enjoyed my physics teacher in high school. And his whole method of teaching was basically group work. He would put
00:21:03
Speaker
He would put, he'd basically teach for like 15 minutes at the beginning of class using, you know, he'd show us some equations. He'd show us, you know, other, like some videos of what we might be learning about in physics. And then he'd put boards up all around the room and we just spent the whole class doing problems with other people in the class. And if we were going down the wrong path, he wouldn't give us the answer, but he would say, I would recommend tweaking this or tweaking that.
00:21:33
Speaker
And he was really good at engaging students in hammering home the concepts. It was never you're wrong or you're right. He would just kind of say, here's what you can adjust to be on the right track. Thank you for sharing that. You're describing some really great teaching methods that we study. So thank you for validating the research.
00:22:02
Speaker
all of the work that we're doing as educators. So Logan, as we wrap up, where can listeners find you online?
Logan's Online Presence
00:22:09
Speaker
I stream on Twitch on Miller Shevitz. It's hard to pronounce, but it's M-I-L-L-E-R-S-H-E-V-I-T-Z. And I have under the same name on YouTube, I post content. Okay, great. We'll put those links in the show notes and we appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Episode Conclusion
00:22:33
Speaker
Thank you for learning with us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes. Learn more about Mastery Portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com. You can follow us on Twitter at MasteryForAll and on LinkedIn on the Mastery Portfolio page. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.