Transcript
Speaker: Made on Zencaster. Because Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy.
Speaker: Use the link in the description. It has a built-in discount. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I am your host Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. In this episode of The Independent Minds, I am talking to Charlene Lynch and finding out about how structured thinking can provide organisations with clarity.
Speaker: Charlene is based in Adelaide, which is in Australia. It's not somewhere that I have been, but if I ever do get the chance to visit Adelaide, I will make all of my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club.
Speaker: That is because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I have access to trade prices on travel, flights, hotels, holidays, trains, all sorts of travel related purchases.
Speaker: I have added a link with a built-in discount to the description so that you can become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club as well and just like me travel at trade prices.
Speaker: Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. And probably good enough to share with friends, family and work colleagues as well.
Speaker: As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Charlene. Hello, Michael. Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Please could we start by you just giving me a little bit of an overview of your career and how you got involved with this idea of the way in which organizations think and how it can be used to create clarity.
Speaker: Yeah, well, it's safe to say that my title is a business strategist and a visual model architect. And I help people take what's in their heads or the messy, brilliant thinking and turn it into clear visual models or frameworks is another word people use. So that it can be truly understood, people understand what it is that they're talking about, it can be remembered, and it can be acted upon. But How I got here is a fascinating story. 2017, was my first month, January 2017, as my professional speaker. my very first month. And eight eight different speaking gigs, eight different slide decks, eight different bios, eight different everything. And I was already exhausted before I began. And I
Speaker: I thought I'd made it on one hand, but as I'd get off the stage, people would say, that's amazing. But when I asked them, what was their takeaway? What did they learn? Time after time, people were saying, I feel good. I feel great. I feel amazing.
Speaker: But they couldn't actually articulate what it was that they had experienced and they certainly couldn't repeat it. So it wasn't until I did a keynote in McLarenvale. So that's a winery area here in South Australia. and I was doing an opening keynote and it was about mind shift, the future of mindset. And instead of just doing a presentation, i'd transitioned into using visual models, visual architecture, visual frameworks to showcase the journey, the outcomes and the process.
Speaker: And I got off stage and people going, I'm at stage number three. I know exactly what I need to do to move forward. Like the information had transitioned. from what was inside of my head, what I'd shared to something that they can carry with them and share outside of that room. So there began the journey of becoming a visual model architect. So I've been at it for now a hot minute. Cool.
Speaker: So what you're talking about is, I suppose you can tell someone something, but they they enjoy it, but it doesn't stick with them. But if you show them something, you create a better impression, of a longer lasting impression. People can actually see themselves in the images that you're presenting.
Speaker: Yeah, what we know is that 50% of a human's brain is dedicated to visuals. And when we're communicating with one another, what happens is I'm creating visuals in my head. So if you're not showing me a visual, I'm creating my own. And quite often if you're speaking one to many, so if you've got a team or you're you're presenting, if you've got more than one person in the room and they're not given the opportunity to ask questions, they're making their own picture.
Speaker: And so that's why we need a third point. That's why we need to use these visual frameworks so that can guide the communication. And if you're in a position position in that you're speaking the same thing or you've got more than one person sharing information, then you want to make sure you've got that level of continuity.
Speaker: That's the word I'm looking for. You've got that level of continuity when they're when they're sharing that information. So when you've got a visual model, you know it's the same information every time and people are picking it up the same way.
Speaker: i suppose that when you say if people are listening to you and there isn't something for them to relate to visually, that they create their own pictures in their mind. and They do.
Speaker: If that's happening, then you can have people with different visions in their mind. And that means that you're then going to end up with a potential conflict when people try to implement the things that you're talking about.
Speaker: Yeah. so especially when you're talking about conflict. So if you've got a third point, if you've got the the vision, the the visual framework, whether it be something drawn on the board, or something on a PowerPoint or a presentation or even at a brochure, then that's your third point. that that If you're sharing if you're sharing bad news basically,
Speaker: then if you've got a third point, then the third point is the bad news so that you're not contaminating it by having to share that. So in your position or in HR, then sometimes we have to have tough conversations. But if you've got that third point, then the person who's having the communication, who's giving the information, they're not they're not the bad thing.
Speaker: Yeah, the third point is. Yeah. So... There's part of me that thinks that this is really straightforward. Yes.
Speaker: Yes, so we agree on that. This is really straightforward. But there's another part of me that is thinking we could think this is very straightforward and get it very, very wrong.
Speaker: Because there are, within all of this, something very small. Well, very small, but actually quite significant. And we could get it wrong. Without really realising we've got it wrong until we try to implement it with other people. Yes. So what is the best way to to deal with this?
Speaker: If we're trying to communicate, what we need to do is have a look at it from their perspective, not ours. And they've got questions in their own mind, whether we're communicating good news, bad news. If you're selling something, you're pitching an idea.
Speaker: if you're trying to get ah information about a merger across, there's questions in the audience's mind that we need to answer. They want to know what the journey is and where we are on the journey and where they are on the journey. And that's the very first question that's happening in their head.
Speaker: And that's an emotive conversation. So we want to showcase what that journey looks like. Now, if you're talking business to business, quite frequently a matrix is a really good place to start because you've got an opportunity then for them to see how you can transition through that matrix to move from being in say the red zone to being in the green zone where you are where we're living above the line, yeah, if the business is being above the line.
Speaker: so ah So first of all, they want to showcase a journey. And then the other questions that's happening in the audience's mind is, well, are you solving my problem? So if you are showcasing this to employees, well, that's fine as a company, that's your situation, but how does it fit for me? Where do I fit into the equation?
Speaker: So we need to answer their problems. And so the second model we work through, because this is a suite of four models that you want to use as communication. And when you put the four models together, they make a complete sentence, they make a complete paragraph, they make a complete pitch, they make a complete presentation.
Speaker: um After you've answered their problems, you want to show them the process that you're going to take them through. Before we go on, you mentioned four models of communication. What are the four models of communication?
Speaker: Yeah, great question, Michael. So the first one is the results. So that is like a journey. The results that people are going to get by following your process, by following your visual thinking. So that's the first one, the results.
Speaker: The second one is the answers. So they're the answers to the problems. not of Not our problems, but the problems of the audience, that the people that are listening, the employees, the person that you're communicating with. That's the second model.
Speaker: And the third model is the process. So your step by step, unique process that doesn't change, it's the same every time, that shows that level of stability, something that people can hang on to with language that they can repeat.
Speaker: And what I noticed a lot is that when companies, when businesses, when people, entrepreneurs, when they have a process, they lead with the process because they know that's the thing that gets the result. They know that's the thing that is going to make the difference.
Speaker: It is the thing that I hear in the gym from the trainer all the time. Trust the process. Trust the process. And every week, as a result of trusting the process, I end up lifting, moving more metal than I did the previous week.
Speaker: It's true because he knows the process is important. Before you go on, before you go on, I have to say, when I say my personal trainer, it's a she. so
Speaker: Well, so she knows. She knows, definitely. She knows. She knows. Right? Exactly. put a link into Jess's profile in the description. So what I notice is most people lead with the process.
Speaker: But if we can't showcase to people that we understand this is the journey, these are your problems, Then we get to show them the process. And and when if we're not using visual thinking, if we're not using this level of architecture for framework when we're communicating, we're starting off with something that you haven't got the right to connect with the people yet. They don't they don't care enough about what you've got to say.
Speaker: to to want to go straight for the process. So we work up. We have the third model is the process. And then the fourth model, this is really important for the people that ah you're communicating to, and that's the outcome for them. What's their outcome? What do they get out of it? And if you put all of those together, the journey, the answers to their problems, the unique process and the outcomes, that forms a complete, well, if you like, it performs a complete pitch, Michael, yeah? Yes, yeah. There's a large amount of that that jumps out at me as saying, you've got like you say, you've got to think about what you need to do from the perspective of the audience, not what it is that you want to tell them.
Speaker: It's what do they need to hear and need to hear in a way which means that they can engage with the overall objectives. Yeah, yes, exactly. Now, we've used these visual frameworks inside of corporations that are experiencing mergers, experiencing, oh the list is huge.
Speaker: yeah But we've got the teams themselves to sit down and craft the visual models to to go through the process of extraction so that they've actually built something themselves that speaks of their unit or their their department or their team.
Speaker: And it's been a fascinating process to see people, because this is when it really comes out, how the thoughts, the processes, the words, the images in their head, for each individual team member is different.
Speaker: And by crafting it together as a unit, that's when you get a level of cohesiveness that you haven't had before. So it's also very popular as a process with councils as well, where you've got fractions and an opportunity for people to work together as a unit.
Speaker: So they're actually building the infrastructure themselves. What you're describing as well, though, it is a a process which could mean the elimination of the risk of a conflict or could help to resolve a conflict.
Speaker: Yes, exactly. so And this all transpires because of visual thinking. By making our thinking visual, it actually helps us see when we're using it as a team building exercise that people are thinking differently.
Speaker: And literally you can see the cards because we use cards to build it. um You've got the cards on the table and you can see that people are thinking differently. Right. I'm going to ask you, is there ah an organisation where you've put this into action without necessarily naming them where you can actually talk through the process that you went through and the outcomes that they achieved?
Speaker: Yeah, I'd like to use a recent client whose business is land developing. Mm-hmm. So a little bit left of centre. And I don't ordinarily work with land developers. And the reason why I want to talk about their story is because it really proved that the process worked because and I wasn't working with organisations like I normally do, which are health-based.
Speaker: And so I had to rely on the process. I had to rely on the framework heavily. And it just proved time after time, hour after hour that the process worked. So when I met them, they had a solid process, 47 steps, Michael, but 100% they could guarantee the outcome. Right. But it was 47 steps. And so like any land development, there's lots of aspects involved in the process. But the most important thing is that you need to sell the idea to people who want to invest.
Speaker: Nobody wants to invest in 47 steps. But i so I imagine that for each step there is a potential risk. Yes, there is a potential risk as well. Yeah. So you're presenting 47 risks to a potential investor as well as 47 opportunities.
Speaker: So we took it apart and we put it back together again and got it into four simple steps. And the the proof of the pudding was she was given an opportunity to showcase her frameworks in a space of six minutes to an audience of 600 people who had who were her perfect audience. They were all investors.
Speaker: And in that six minutes, 69 people said, I'll have what you're having. And out of the 69, 52 of them qualified for the financial buy-in. so And that is all because we boiled it down to the framework, just using the framework of the results, the journey, the problems that the audience have, and here are the solutions. Here's the framework, which is now only four steps, and these are the outcomes that you're going to get.
Speaker: Right. So what was the process of going from 47 stages down to four? Who was involved? How long did it take? so So that's actually partway through the process. To answer that question, that's not the very beginning of the process. That's partway through. But it all starts with extraction. And extraction looks like asking a series of questions and getting the thinking visible. And what i find is that people that I work with are brilliant, absolutely brilliant at what they do, but the thinking is inside of their head. It hasn't been made visible. So the process of extraction, asking the series of questions, getting the answers out, having a look for the patterns and then putting it back together again so that we can sequence it.
Speaker: So in the old days, it used to be post-it notes. So we would write all of these things on post-it notes and then move them around the room. Now, because most of the clients are online because we work globally, and also it's just easier now, we use applications that we can still use a type of post-it note, but it's um it's on an application and you can move it around. More of the team can work in on At the same time, you can have up to 20 people working on one project at a time um to move the pieces around the board.
Speaker: like take I get what you mean about the the post-it pads on the whiteboard and like You can never really read other people's writing in those sorts of situations because they hold the post-it note in their hand and try to write on it. And they, instead of printing it, they'll do their greatest script, kind of thing, wedding invitation type stuff.
Speaker: And it never really works out. And you can never really quite understand what it is when you go back to it. But I do remember being involved in those types of situations. Now you've got, you've taken that sort of process online. and you can have up to 20 people participating in a process which is about identifying what what the process really needs to be but the key ingredient is the way in which you get everyone's opinions thoughts onto that board that everyone can see and that's going through the four stages so they're supposed to start with the results of the process that's the old sort of
Speaker: adage of start with the end in mind. that Know your destination. Yeah, we know that the destination is unpacking the four models. And we try to, so if we're working in a team environment. We've got some basic guidelines, but really we want people to think outside of the box because that's where the magic is. And so outside of a team example, if we're looking at someone who's ah a say a CEO of their own company,
Speaker: then it's more about what the the gold that's inside of their mind that they don't even realise they have because they use it every day and they don't even know that it's gold. They don't understand that other people don't think the same way. So the the same process can be used for teams, it can be used for individuals, it can be used for businesses.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. I'm just wondering about yeah the experience of the people who are in that team of 20 people when they go into that type of environment.
Speaker: Is it something that you see widespread enthusiasm for? Because I'm thinking that it's possibly a situation that people will not have had much experience of the concept of being involved in that sort of process definition before.
Speaker: Yeah, so we gamify a lot and make it fun and and and nothing is wrong so and there's no bad ideas. So, you know, all of the standard rules of engagement apply. But because it is it's fun and we've got we've got everyone's got their own colours and we can mix the colours up, And we're typing as as opposed to handwriting, so we don't have the problem of not being able to read people's writing ah because everyone can type. and um And what we find is that people start to see the patterns themselves. In fact, the facilitator takes a step back and lets them see what they can figure out themselves. And that process becomes just a different type ah of weaving of the team together. Right. because
Speaker: When we say the team, I'm imagining that you've got a team of people who from different departments, different levels or of seniority. It can be a complete mix, I imagine.
Speaker: Yeah, depends on the company, depends on the organisation. Sometimes it might be all executive assistants and they're looking for to to create a process. It can be someone who, it can be a group that's in one particular department. So it more often than not, um They are smaller groups looking to showcase what it is that they're doing, literally so that they can actually make the sale and get more get more money across the line for their department. So it quite often it's about getting a complex idea broken down. Recently did some work with some engineers. And brilliant, absolutely brilliant, but no one could really understand what they were trying to do even if they explained it in the simplest way. When we put it into the models, it became really clear.
Speaker: seven-year-old could understand it and see the value in the thinking. Yes. When you mention executive assistants, my experience of working with a group of executive assistants where what we wanted to do in the organisation was get a standard approach to the written communications,
Speaker: that were being sent out, like letters and proposals and get everything standardized so that you had a very good, very strong corporate image to our communications.
Speaker: And they came in almost as like representatives of there the chief, of of the vice president that they worked for and almost saw it as like, what my vice president wants is what everybody else is going to have to have.
Speaker: and we had to break down the the competitive element between them, which was like a a proxy competition because it can't allow my vice president to lose face in this type of environment.
Speaker: How do you compensate or deal with the competition that exists between people from different departments or even just, this is an opportunity for me to shine, it'll be good for my career.
Speaker: How do you how do you get people to see that this is a slightly different approach to solving problems? Yeah, group dynamics. It all comes out think into the group dynamics. yeah and um And when someone takes ownership of this is your particular colour, this is your colour, and sometimes we break people down into groups deliberately, working with the organisation to say who you want in which group for one reason or another,
Speaker: um It helps to sort out. They do become a little bit competitive, just quietly. um But in the long run, when you've got literally all the cards on the table so everyone can see everyone else's cards, then it becomes a collaborative choice as to what we need to do to move forward. There are no prima donnas. There are no bright, shiny stars. It's a team effort.
Speaker: Yes. I suspect that part of that is because starts with people being honest, being sharing, and there's no point in being competitive. if if you can't find somebody to compete against yeah yeah and it's a very collaborative approach absolutely so it still boils down to that if people don't people can't see what your thinking is they just don't get it we can explain it and even if english is your first language it still doesn't land unless people see it yes it's that getting back to the
Speaker: visual part of it which is the key driver of getting the involvement and the commitment and say involvement is the active involvement they're trying to fulfill a vision the language that we use about change in organizations is goals you can see the goal the vision with the very visual type of words to use when we're talking about change even thinking outside the box is an expression that I'm not in the box. How do I have the behaviour that no one will think I am inside the box?
Speaker: What's the question? I was thinking, of what is the question? and we Have I made a statement there? I was waiting for to see if your inflection was up or down. It's hard when I can't see your face.
Speaker: Yeah, because the visual side of things, yes and you making making you think that yes. You're making me think that we should perhaps have done this as ah a webinar rather than a podcast, but maybe that is something for the future. But thinking about the future, of what is the the future for your your concept program?
Speaker: Does it have a name? Yeah, and so the the process, the four models are called Think Rat, and it is the... Basically, the conversation is in and around visual thinking and making our thinking visual.
Speaker: So it's very popular with coaches. It's very popular with educators. It's very popular with speakers. It's their third point. It's their point of communication. It has become popular with teams and organisations and it really, it can also be used, and this is really interesting, 2023, we started using it as a personal coaching tool so that you can actually ascertain what is the goals for me, what is the journey that I want to take myself on, what are my problems, what are my own answers, what is the process I need to do to maintain that and what's the outcome I'm looking for. So the same beautiful structure has also been used and turned internally so that you can use it for self-help and self um yeah self-communication.
Speaker: That's a topic for another time. But it certainly sounds very, very interesting. And I will take a look at more in more detail at the website. But for today, Charlene, really have enjoyed It's opened my eyes, he said, and another the visual reference.
Speaker: another visual reference you've just become aware of how often we use words to describe something that is actually visual and then everything's sort of fit into place but yeah it's fascinating thank you very much for your time today it's been very interesting do appreciate it thank you michael
Speaker: i am michael millward the managing director of abeceda and i have been having a conversation with the independent mind Charlene Lynch. You can find out more information about both of us by using the links in the description.
Speaker: I'm sure you will be enjoyed listening to this episode of the Independent Minds as much as Charlene and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
Speaker: To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. And remember also to share the link with your family, friends and work colleagues as well. It's also important to remember that the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
Speaker: Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
