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Hana Walker Brown
189 Plays4 years ago
Hana Walker Brown is a Multi-Award-Winning Documentary and Podcast Creator, Composer, Writer and Creative Director.
Which basically means she tells stories; really good stories.
"It’s a real privilege; sitting down with a stranger and speaking until we are no longer strangers.
Holding a space for someone into which they can just talk; freely, openly. Where it is safe to be vulnerable.
I’m passionate about exploring the edges of vulnerability and courage, in the subtle art of holding space, in trust and how we can establish and maintain intimacy in our very modern world.
I am fascinated by humans and all their edges.
I have sat with their fear, their silence, with their joy, grief, courage and everything in between.
In that moment, we are together. And each time I leave a little different; altered somehow. Real fucking magic."
https://www.hanawalkerbrown.com/
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:03
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host, Ken Delante. Editor and producer, Peter Bauer.
Guest Excitement
00:00:18
Speaker
This is Ken Vellante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast, and well, she knows it already. I'm super excited to have Hannah walk around on this episode. Before I spend a little bit of time, Hannah, talking about what you do, I just want to say hi, right off the bat.
00:00:37
Speaker
What I wanted to let folks know what you do, as you know, Hannah, I'm a big fan of your work.
Introducing Hannah Walker-Brown
00:00:44
Speaker
Hannah Walker-Brown's based in London. She's a podcast producer, author, creative director.
00:00:53
Speaker
She works with broccoli productions in producing high quality, fantastic podcast content. My favorite being Zombie Mum of those. And I first encountered Hannah with basically there's an audible presentation of a four part short series called The Beautiful Brain.
00:01:22
Speaker
which dealt with CT, brain injury, in particular there around British football, soccer. And also, I would be remiss in not mentioning the fantastic anthems content that have been produced that we could chat a bit about.
00:01:46
Speaker
All right, so Hannah, you've done a lot of stuff. I'm really interested in your work. We'll talk more about that. But we've got to go back to the beginning.
Hannah's Early Life and Artistry
00:01:55
Speaker
And I'm wondering, when you were born, Hannah, were you an artist when you were born? You know, I was thinking about this question because I don't know if I would even class myself as an artist now, but I think I was born a fighter.
00:02:16
Speaker
I think that has always been in me. And this is ridiculous, but sort of a crisis point in my late teens. I did go and see a shaman, which in London, but, you know, did you show him that what you will? But he knew instantly that I was put into an incubator the moment I was born. So I sort of came into the world fighting for my life, I suppose. And I don't know how much, you know, people,
00:02:44
Speaker
take from that or read into that or how much kind of you think that is grounded in truth or reality but I think I've always had that fight and I say a lot you know I'm as much inspired by rage as I am by hope and I think that fighting spirit is something intrinsic in anything I do whether it's kind of music I make or the podcasts I produce or
00:03:06
Speaker
now the books that I'm writing I think that fight has always been there so I think I was born with that which has ultimately propelled me forwards and I guess how I chose to express that or the way I choose to kind of I guess tap into that is through my art I'm doing kind of inverted commas my fingertips because you know documentary
00:03:36
Speaker
and storytelling, I suppose, in my MO, but the way that I tell those stories and how I craft these things is very artistic. But I'd say I was born a fighter and I've just fueled that into whatever I've made. And it just kind of made sense for me to have a creative outlet for that rather than, I don't know, politics or something where, you know, people are shouting at you all the time and, you know, you have to be right. I guess I needed something to explore and
00:04:04
Speaker
and evolved with, and art felt like the space to do that, or creative expression, an artistic creative expression felt like the place to do that, to harness that, I suppose. Yeah, well, I like to, you know, when you're born a fighter, I'm sure that's a good question to plop in there, in there too. And I mean, obviously, with your work, it's noticeable because you have to go all in. And I've heard some of your description as far as,
00:04:31
Speaker
uh sound and it's been very helpful talking about the human voice and I've I've I've um talked to guests about that and about podcasts and how it raises the voice and what you hear and you talk about the different components of um Of that but I would say on your on on the creation of art I mean your fighting is right in there because in order to get like an investigative story in order for you to go into
00:05:02
Speaker
Gosh, football, male football, and money, and start saying that people are getting hurt and start to mention it. The fighting has to be the way that you get to your art.
00:05:17
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You have to be tenacious, which I have in abundance. You have to graft. And also courage.
Courage and Storytelling
00:05:27
Speaker
Courage has always been one of my three values, and I try and live my life by that. And it's something my grandma said to me shortly before she died about being brave and never settling. And she didn't mean don't settle for the wrong romantic partner.
00:05:45
Speaker
but it was just settle in anything, you know, have the courage to want more, to be more, to do more than even you think you're capable of. And that wasn't in a kind of, you know, capitalist way. Like I deserve loads of money, but it was like, you know, I realized quite early on, I do have a responsibility because I have this ability to be able to go into those spaces. I have access to these stories and therefore I should tell them. And that does require courage on my part, you know, like you said,
00:06:14
Speaker
with the book I've just written, you're confronting sporting bodies. So I'm going for them. You can't be sort of on the fence about that. You're either all in or not. And that courage, I think, and that fight is definitely what drives the art. And also, you know, I want to do this. I get great enjoyment out of doing it. I'm not here, you know, because I don't want to be here. And I have to be like I really enjoy
00:06:42
Speaker
being able to meet so many people, being able to kind of be the container into which those stories can live. And, you know, the responsibility, I guess, is I'm told them and then I tell them to you, the listener of the world. And that's the kind of the great responsibility is telling that in an authentic way, being truthful to them. But yeah, it requires tenacity and courage and a bit of fight. And I don't mean you're fighting against people, but
00:07:11
Speaker
You know, you're fighting to get where you are. I fought to get into the industry. It's really hard. Like I'm from a working class background, you know, doors aren't open for us. We have to kick those doors down. You know, also have a woman and predominantly, you know, I started in radio and that was predominantly in production. Companies were run by men. All commissioners at the BBC are white men. So, you know, even from the get go, before you've even got to the story,
00:07:40
Speaker
there's a fight to be had. So you have to be tenacious, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I know in the stories that, you know, the stories that that you go in and I recognize, I mean, I hear the voice you had some of the, you know, East London gang I heard just
00:08:00
Speaker
Hearing the voices of those folks, I mean, change the accent a bit. These are kids that I grew up. This is the area that I
Power of Sound in Storytelling
00:08:07
Speaker
grew up. And one of the pieces I just want to share with the audience that I found, which was I'd seen a YouTube video where you presented the voices of these individuals.
00:08:20
Speaker
And afterwards, the soundcraft that he had into it, I felt like it still had everybody wrapped in there. So there was this cohesion between the sound, and it was just like, I'm bringing you along. So I see so much of the creative pieces that you do with sound, and I kind of attach to them.
00:08:41
Speaker
and learn from them. So thank you for that and doing that. But I got another, let's kick back back to the conceptual before we get. I wanna know what you believe art is. And I know you were kind of like, you felt like a little bit squirrely on the podcast. Go into it. What is art?
00:09:09
Speaker
Do you know what though, I think the thing is, what I do, I think is art. I think podcasts now have become, especially in the UK, just to kind of, they're more marketing than anything else. Like they're to get money, they're to put celebrities front and centre. So like the craft, which I'm not precious about because I think, you know, things have to evolve and we have to evolve with them. But I guess podcast is the term that
00:09:37
Speaker
I scroll out because it's just it to me what I do and and what I hope my work does feels more than what that is which at the moment is kind of just heavy marketing but yeah I mean and I really I'm really glad that you know you mentioned the sound because that's so important to me in my work and I think if we're talking about art for me it's the ability to take someone away from there every day
00:10:06
Speaker
that's what art does, that's what it has the potential to do. And I guess it is a kind of a conversation, whether it's kind of a painting, whether it's an audio piece, whether it's a film, like there's a dialogue between you as the viewer, listener, and whatever the piece is, you know, you have a response, it's, you know, the art doesn't live unless it's given to an audience, because that's kind of when it comes to life is when
00:10:33
Speaker
it ignites something in your imagination or it sparks a conversation or you know people are repelled by it even like there has to be that response and I found with sound very very early on in my life that sound could have a really visceral reaction in people it could really take you somewhere else and
00:10:55
Speaker
And, you know, we see it with songs and kind of the emotional response or, you know, you hear the beat of a particular song and you're right back to when you were 15 in that car, you know, I don't know, smoking a joint, whatever we were doing when we were 15. And it's instant like it's that transportation is instant. And I think for me, I just loved that hit like that hit of. I don't know, just being elsewhere. And I found, you know, I really like art.
Art's Emotional Impact
00:11:22
Speaker
I'm really into
00:11:25
Speaker
of contemporary art but that takes a little bit more time like when you're observing a piece or you're like reading about the artist where a sound I found like instantly you can go somewhere done well it can take you away and you don't even know where you've been until it's finished and you've kind of landed back in the room and that's what I wanted to do and I'm at my happiest when I'm making those pieces like I could lose hours
00:11:50
Speaker
days sometimes. I'm sort of in the middle of something at the moment where I've just started to do the music and the sound around the voice around the story. And I don't know, I just sort of lose myself a bit. So it's that transportative quality of art I love. That's what I think art is.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, I just wanted to mention sound. I have a big term, but sound. And I mentioned how I was able to pick up and just understand creation more about what you're doing and the power of that, and you describing the human voice. I've had those conversations as well. And also with music, I've learned to hear music better from my son, who's a musician and describes it to me. And other people around me say, hey, Ken,
00:12:42
Speaker
listen to, here it is right here. And so I'd gone for a long time, not really understanding how sound was impacting me and not doing a podcast and be like, Ken, you got to figure out what is happening with, with, with, with, with sound. Cause the power as you identify. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting when you think about listening and actually the power of listening. And I mean, like listening in its purest sense, like really listening and
00:13:10
Speaker
You find this in interviewing people as well because I'm not there to reply. I'm not there to kind of input anything of my own. I'm just there to listen to this person's story and hold that space for them to tell it. And I don't really know many occasions where anyone is really just there to listen to you, like even if it's kind of
00:13:31
Speaker
a doctor, they're still thinking about their next patient that's coming in in 15 minutes because, you know, they've got such a high turnaround. But to have someone actually there for, you know, this kind of extended length of time, usually, and actually listen to what you have to say, I think there's like real power in that. So it does work both ways. And yeah, it's interesting. You might have people that don't actually listen to music. I was having this conversation the other day with one of our producers about now because of, you know,
00:14:02
Speaker
the new kind of monopoly of digital spaces like TikTok and Instagram and Snapchat. Music is just kind of there to be consumed, like it's quickly consumed, it's shared, it's gone. And we were talking about how, you know, you'd buy an album and you'd order it and it would arrive and then you'd sit there and listen to it from start to finish. Or I used to play them in the car when I was a teenager and
00:14:29
Speaker
know, be driving around listening to every track. And, you know, that now it's, it's like, you know, 10 second burst of a song, that's it. And then it kind of that, I don't know it. And it's fine. It's fine that that's how it changes. You know, I'm sure if I had a conversation with my dad about music, he'd be like, Oh, you lot ruined it. Whereas when I looking at kind of the next generation, like, what are you doing? But that kind of art of listening, I think has, yeah, has been lost somewhere.
00:14:56
Speaker
Right. It's like the, uh, I think there's something there too. I mean, if you just mentioned, you know, an album, right, you know, you know, a subpar track on side B of your favorite album that you just, you sit through and be like, well, the next one's great. So I'll sit through the three and a half minutes of this song that I'm marginal about. Yeah. Yeah. But now it's like, no skip, like people are even, which I just, it blows my mind, but.
00:15:21
Speaker
People listen to audiobooks and even Netflix, they watch it on double speed or they listen on double speed because they want to get all the information, but they don't want to spend the time. And I'm like, this, the world is mad, which, you know, we well know, but just like that consumption of everything is just on overdrive, I think.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So, well, going back to storytelling and the human voices, it sounds foundational. But I want to take us talking about art and what art is. I want to ask another important question to probably you think about in terms of your work. I've asked guests over time, and the question sounds different during a pandemic, is
00:16:05
Speaker
What is the role of art? So we have art pieces. What is it supposed to be doing? Is it doing that? What is the role of art for us humans? I mean, I think there's so many answers for this. I think my response is probably still grounded in that escape and that departure from the ordinary.
00:16:34
Speaker
And for me, art is to affect change. It's a tool for resistance and rebellion, but I think that departure from reality, I think is the biggest thing for me, which is what I have always got in my mind when I'm making something. I think, I don't know,
00:17:06
Speaker
I always see it as this duality, like it's not kind of, you know, it's not just about the artist, but it's also the, again, the listener, the viewer, the consumer, I suppose, if we want to kind of go there. And there has to be an exchange between the two. So for me, it still feels as something quite inclusive, which I know kind of art, if you look at it kind of in the art world is renowned for being, you know, the exclusive scene, but
00:17:34
Speaker
I think real art, for it to be of any value, for it to have any response, it has to be, you know, you give and receive between whoever's kind of taking it on. But yeah, I think it's definitely the means for change.
Art as Change and Rebellion
00:17:55
Speaker
I think we can make the world better with art, I hope. I think we used right. It really can impact and empower
00:18:03
Speaker
And I mean, I want to change the world, like that's always been my Emma, even in a small way. So anything where I am expressing myself creatively will have that kind of behind it. But I definitely think it is that to
00:18:27
Speaker
I guess to take someone away and that doesn't have to be just into the lives of someone else. That could be for like a moment of beauty or a moment of clarity or a moment of calm or a moment of joy, but just something that offers the extraordinary or the extraordinary. So like an extra to your ordinary. It doesn't have to be kind of fantastical and mythical and, you know, Harry Potter and broomsticks, but just something else, I think.
00:18:56
Speaker
And within those spaces, that's where change occurs or where clarity or, you know, inspiration hits. So I guess, yeah, it's quite rumbly.
Vulnerability and Connection in Art
00:19:07
Speaker
I'm kind of thinking about it. No, I'm thinking with you. I want to ask a different type of question connected to this. So you talked about
00:19:18
Speaker
You talked about kind of, you know, art having this piece of, you know, it's something different. It's something escape or release. Not totally. That wasn't the nature of comments, but like you go there for it. But I see your dynamic as it's complicated because
00:19:38
Speaker
You're the artist creating this type of thing. And so me as the consumer, I can listen to your intimate conversation and I can glean all those things from it. But I'm fascinated by the fact that you go in and talk to folks in a particular way. And what I mean by that is that you create this connection, this human connection, and you talk about the physicality of it when it's physically happening.
00:20:04
Speaker
You're a fighter. You're going in and getting these stories. You're the artist doing that. What you create seems to be that separation. I can listen to it over here in Oregon and be like, what a human story. I'm moved. I'm interested in this person. You as the artist, you're going in there in the connection. How are you able to do that for yourself as an artist?
00:20:33
Speaker
How am I able to, hmm. I mean, can I swear or would you rather I didn't? You can, as a matter of fact, Hannah, I've listened to you before. If you listened to me before, we would have had this task to understand that. Yeah, go ahead.
00:20:55
Speaker
I know. Do you know what? I'm trying to be on my best behavior because I do know a lot. This is not a best behavior. I'm not connected to anybody. I'm a union rep in the United States. I love your work practice though, isn't it? I'm like, Oh God. Um, no, I was going to say, you know, in AV situations, I have to empty out of my own bullshit. I, I, again, and this is where
00:21:20
Speaker
I trained to be a yoga teacher, which actually came much later, but the two do really kind of complement each other in terms of how you go into a space with someone, how you hold that space with someone, and how you make that safe. Because yes, I'm going in, I'm leaving everything that I have behind. You literally just empty out of
00:21:42
Speaker
whatever you're going through that day, whatever kind of preconceptions you might have, I don't even go in with questions. I make sure I kind of really study upon the person and what I want from them. But I don't go in with like a piece of paper, for example, because that creates like an instant barrier between me and them, you know, so I'm just going in as me, Hannah, the human, like, yes, I'm going to
00:22:06
Speaker
kind of draw this story out or we're going to have this conversation, but I'm never in as like, I'm a producer and this is what I'm getting. And I think that's what people kind of forget, like human first, right? If you're human first, then someone is at ease.
00:22:22
Speaker
There's various things I do to ensure that kind of that space is really safe and that they feel held. And like I said, like, you know, I'm there to listen. So I make sure that that's what I'm doing. You know, I've got nothing else. My phone is off. I'm not kind of
00:22:37
Speaker
looking around outside, like I'm there for you. And I think, again, that's very rare. And it's very precious, I think, to have that encounter with someone. And if someone's agreed to speak to you, it's because they want to, you know, it's not because you've kind of forced them or a lot of people, if they say no, I'd never push it.
00:22:59
Speaker
Because what's the point of that? You're just going to get a really uncomfortable situation. The story's not going to be great. There's going to be this kind of tension, I suppose. So if they've agreed to speak to me, then I know that they're kind of up for it. And I guess within that, it's just, again, making someone feel comfortable. But also, you know, they know what I'm there for as well.
00:23:28
Speaker
So there isn't kind of any surprises. And I've always said like the way I make work is show and don't tell. Like I don't want to tell the listener, the audience what someone's feeling or what I think. I'm just going to show you what happened within that space and relay it as authentically and truthfully as I can. And when I say truthfully, I don't mean like, you know, the cold hard facts. I mean, the truth of how I felt in that situation, the truth of
00:23:57
Speaker
what that encounter was like. And whatever you feel within the sound design of my work or within the work itself, I use the sound to explain to you how I was feeling. So whatever you feel from that encounter, from that piece, that's how I'm using the sound. And when I come to kind of editing those stories and whatever, that's where my expression is. So you won't hear from me,
00:24:26
Speaker
very often at all in my work, apart from Beautiful Brain, which obviously narrated, but I bleed through all of the sound. So any moments of emotion or anything that really kind of hits you, like guaranteed I was hit in that moment, that's why that's kind of been elevated. So for me, I just love, I love that conversation. I love that space. And it's the same thing I got from teaching yoga. You are there, whatever your students need, that's what you give them.
00:24:56
Speaker
And you have to make sure that they're safe, that they're practicing, you know, they're not pushing themselves because of ego, that, you know, they're working within their parameters that they feel like.
00:25:07
Speaker
They're getting what they need that day out of it. You know, if they've got high energy, give them high energy. If they really need to come down, you settle them down. But it's like, you know, I couldn't go into a yoga class. Everyone's like, oh, I'm so tired from work. And I'm like, no, we're going to work hard. Like, that's, that's just, you know, instantly creates a kind of disconnect. Whereas, okay, I see you. Let's, let's nurture that space. So I, but that's why I do this. Like I buzz on that face to face encounter.
00:25:37
Speaker
And I don't know how to explain it. It's just you're, you know, not just kind of listening to someone, but them entrusting me with that story, like letting me in. Right. That's a privilege. Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:53
Speaker
And it's that connection that's there because I see it as the root for the art that comes out, but always appreciating that you're a person and a human in that process. And hearing about yoga, I was just thinking along the same type of thing around whatever the magic or the energy or the movement that's there, I think it's kind of...
00:26:14
Speaker
like when you don't think necessarily of like interviewing documentaries, yoga, but there's this mind and body piece that you know, yeah, totally. And they are so I've taken so much from interviewing for docs into my yoga and vice versa. And I do think
00:26:32
Speaker
they seem so far apart, but essentially you're holding space for another human being into which they can be vulnerable, where it is safe to be vulnerable. That's what a yoga class is, right? You get the most out of your practice if you're willing to let go of your ego and just be like, you know what, I'm just going to do this and whatever comes, comes. If you're like, no, I'm
00:26:53
Speaker
going to be strong and I'm going to do this and I'm not going to you know you you're not going to get the most out of your practice the same way if you go into an interview and someone's like no I don't want to say that I want to keep this you know I mean like it's the same and both are shitty outcomes whereas if you take the layers off right in both you get the most out of it as as interviewer and interviewee as teacher and student and
00:27:20
Speaker
They do run in parallel and it blew my mind when I started teaching yoga I was like, oh I know how to hold this space because I've been doing it for all these years in a different scenario, but Essentially the foundations are exactly the same wasn't and that just blew my so I was I had a similar not a similar but like a different type of analogy so I I work as a union rep for 21 years and then I'm doing the podcast and thing and I'm like
00:27:46
Speaker
you know, there's nerves around it. I'm like, how did I end up talking to like this metal band in Brooklyn? I just part of my personality. But one of the things I realized would be like working as a union rep. I have 21 years of not choosing the conversation I have. Number two, people coming to me, me setting up that space for them and then telling me about
00:28:11
Speaker
their affair, or their mental illness, or alcohol, or great students in their class, or any human experience possible. And I've been like, Ken, you've done this for a little while, where whatever it is that's going on, you're going to get into it. But I didn't even notice that skill of work over here, being like, that's why you can chat with greater ease than others.
00:28:41
Speaker
But I know I think it is. It's like I think we're so because of, you know, the way the world is and, you know, the kind of climbing the career ladder and this desire to succeed, we're always so focused on the job title.
00:28:56
Speaker
I couldn't possibly do that because I've never been a presenter. I couldn't possibly do that because I've never been a producer. And actually, what we need to keep remembering in this is these are fundamental human skills that we can apply to these things. You can learn how to edit a podcast. You can learn how to use software.
Ken's Union Rep Insights
00:29:16
Speaker
What you can't learn is, I mean, maybe you can, but
00:29:20
Speaker
If you can't have a conversation with someone and you can't hold space, then it doesn't matter. Because your podcast is going to be shit, right? It's going to be terrible. You can edit it within an inch of its life. It's going to have no heart. So that's the stuff we really need to work on before the titles, the job description stuff. Yeah. Because I think you can apply it to so many things. Counselor, podcast producer, union rep, yoga teacher.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, I think you're right. I think, I mean, I, here's an example of it for me, you know, just, just not noticing what's going on there. And, and using that as a sense of empowerment, you know, like, like I know how to do this. Yeah. It's a little bit of a tweak, but give me three days and I got this shit down. Right. And you only get better. Like the more you do, the better you get. It's like, like with anything, I think that's something else we've forgotten. Like, Oh, if you just keep doing it.
00:30:11
Speaker
You know, keep practicing. Well, one of the things, you know, I wanted to ask, too, because, you know, get into creative process. And but you also done something very distinct creatively, and that is to write a book called A Delicate Game.
Writing During the Pandemic
00:30:30
Speaker
As far as like bouncing over there as far as like creating and do what the heck was that like free? I mean, obviously, you know the the stories the stories, you know were there you've been around that type of content, but now you go in to Write a book that's a completely different endeavor creatively. How's that? Well, like what was that experience? Um, it was really hard It was the hardest thing I
00:30:59
Speaker
I mean, I'm not hard to say I've ever done as in, you know, there's hardships in life, but as in, creatively, it was, it was really difficult. And, you know, also, I wrote it during the first year of the pandemic. So not an ideal, you know, I always thought I'd write my first book, like, on a Greek island, and everything would be, you know, I don't know, Bohemian, and I'd
00:31:26
Speaker
But it would just be right in the Mediterranean area somewhere. Yeah. Well, I mean, I did. I wrote it for three months in Spain after the first lockdown. I just had to get out of London because it was hell. I was like, fuck it. I'll go to Spain to do this. But then Spain had a lockdown. And then I came back and then I went back and then I don't know. It just wasn't the year to be taking on something you've never done before. And I think the thing that I
00:31:55
Speaker
could never have imagined is how vulnerable it makes you feel to be writing something like putting your own words onto a page was like someone had taken all my clothes off me and I was just kind of stood there naked in the middle of like Trafalgar Square or somewhere just with loads of people and I just I didn't
00:32:22
Speaker
expect that at all. And, you know, they're not my stories. Like you said, I've been doing this for six years is from the back of the beautiful brain about the CTE and sports and corruption. So it's kind of an extension of all those stories and across all sport, actually now, AFL, NFL, rugby, soccer, also domestic violence. Yeah. So
00:32:51
Speaker
It's not even like I'm writing a memoir where I'm telling you like the deepest, darkest depths of my life, but there was something so like, I was paralyzed with anxiety at points writing this because, and I don't know whether it was because I hadn't done it before and I didn't have
00:33:14
Speaker
I didn't know how to do it. And I know it sounds really strange because I've written a lot and I've written audio books, but this is a whole different ballgame. But there was just something about the vulnerability. And I think also within that time I got diagnosed with ADHD. So I was kind of wondering why I couldn't, this thing was so hard to do. I was procrastinating nonstop. I was feeling really vulnerable. We were in a pandemic. And I know when it comes out in March, I'm going to be like,
00:33:44
Speaker
It's so great. But it was really, really hard. And I think...
00:33:49
Speaker
you know, I'm launching a new blog at the end of this month where I'm going to talk a lot more about, you know, the creative process behind that, because I think, especially with kind of Instagram, you know, all we see is like, hey, I've written a book and, you know, an author in front of a perfectly curated bookcase. I want all the pain and suffering. Where's the pain and suffering? Why does no one talk about the pain? And actually, authors I've spoken to,
00:34:17
Speaker
I had one author, me and her, had the same agent. So we were talking, both writing our first books at the same time. So, I mean, God forbid those voice notes we sent each other should ever come out because they are just like, this is some shit. But then you speak to authors privately and they're like, oh yeah, it's awful. Writing a book is horrendous. But then the kind of front and what everyone else sees is just kind of the shiny stuff. But then I realized,
00:34:46
Speaker
once it's out and you're holding it, it is so shiny that you almost forget the trauma. And I've got to write another book after this one. I want a two book deal, so. Oh, boy. Yeah, but no, but I guess the thing is, it was it was challenging in the sense that, you know, I've spent 12 years making audio, doing sound like I can do it
00:35:14
Speaker
like, you know, it's back of my hand stuff, you know, and I still really enjoy it. But this was kind of a whole new endeavor. And I'm grateful that it was how it was in some ways, because it really I really had to like step up and sharpen up and confront a lot of things as well. Like, was I scared of it being not good enough? Was I scared of people buying it? Did I think
00:35:42
Speaker
I guess in my head I really wanted to make the leap from sound to writing in the next few years and kind of have a little career shift. And I was basically just piling all this pressure on myself when actually I just needed to write. That was it. So it definitely taught me a lot about process.
00:35:59
Speaker
and it's finished, so. So yes, okay. This is just a curious question. The process of writing and coming out of that, not to the extent that you're talking about writing, did you notice changes in your brain after that experience of that type of writing or trying to shift the writing to blend the voice via words?
00:36:27
Speaker
Um, yes, I think actually, interestingly, I approached it in the same way that I would do a documentary, even though there is more of an element of tell, because you the one thing that's really obvious, I mean, it's so obvious, but you can't hear the tone of someone's voice on paper, I have to
00:36:50
Speaker
create around that rather than being like, you know, they sounded angry. Like, how can I build that show and don't tell into words on paper, which I do think I manage. I mean, we'll see when it comes out. But I think it was about, again, creating that environment. And this was very different because I've done all the interviews. Now you've got to hold space for the reader. Yeah.
00:37:20
Speaker
I have to contain all
Audio vs. Written Storytelling Challenges
00:37:22
Speaker
of this stuff. So they have all the information, they have all the scientific facts, they have the kind of the intimacy and emotion of me being in the room with these people. And I have to do that in a way that not only makes sense, but it's also hopefully interesting to read, you know, and, and that was the challenge, I think. And again, you know, because when you're listening to something,
00:37:46
Speaker
You know, the human voice betrays so much, you know, even this very simple, like, you know, you ask someone if they're okay, I'm fine. Their voice instantly tells you they're not fine. Whereas on the page, like how do I communicate that? How do I ensure that I'm getting that level of kind of capturing it or. Yeah. Capturing it, but how I'm communicating it in, in the most authentic way.
00:38:16
Speaker
And that I found challenging on page. Yeah.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm deeply, you know, in my personal approach to your book is, you know, obviously I'm like deeply interested in reading it, but it's actually to the point of your mind applied to this issue. That's like for me, just seeing how you do your work. So really, really, really looking forward to that. Back to the conceptual question rather than the agony and horror of writing.
00:38:48
Speaker
I know, it's not really like, I know, there were moments of joy, moments. Your second book I know is The Joy of Writing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the second one. This is a big question, a couple more. Big question is, who or what made you who you are in a walk around? Oh my God, so many people and so many things and
00:39:16
Speaker
I think that's, you know, you have to be insatiably curious to do what I do. Like you have to be. And so my friends always find it hilarious. And my dad has mentioned this since I was a kid, but I'll talk to anyone and they find me. Like I will be, you know, outside a pub in the pouring rain and I'll be having a conversation or I'm the person people sit next to on the bus
00:39:46
Speaker
and they want to chat. And I don't know, I've just always had a lot of time for everybody. I remember me and my dad, he's got a little cottage in the north of England, a seaside town, and the pub is maybe like 50 people there in the whole place. And there was one night we went to the pub and there was three people in there, me, him, and this other person who was at the bar. By the end, I was sat basically interviewing this person at the bar about their life. And I just think,
00:40:14
Speaker
I don't know, it's just something I've always had in me. And I think being around a lot of my parents separated when I was very young, but both had big groups of friends. So we always were around a lot of adults, there was always a lot of people around, like we were very sociable, like that were kind of the networks we brought up into, like working class. But I think, you know, a lot of the time,
00:40:39
Speaker
that's misinterpreted as not being cultured. Like my dad's a musician, we had a lot of theater, a lot of art, we, you know, not a lot of money, but the kind of the things that enriched me as a person were kind of there in abundance. So again, I just, people, I think people are the things that have made me who I am. And actually, again, like this idea of courage, like having the courage to,
00:41:08
Speaker
to go deep, like to really sit with myself, I think, has been integral, like that very deep self inquiry, like acknowledging and working with the stuff I don't like about myself or the stuff that makes me angry and actually rather than kind of pushing it away or pretending it's not there, I've got very good at really tuning into that and questioning that and embracing both sides. And I think
00:41:37
Speaker
that's really enabled me to really be myself without shame or, you know, without trying to be someone I'm not. And that's something that I think has only really come into play for me in the last kind of three years since I've been in my 30s. But I think this is when I've really stepped into myself. But people, I would say. Yeah, yeah. And thank you. Thank you for that.
Curiosity and Creative Process
00:42:07
Speaker
I have one question before the big, you know, why is there something rather than nothing question, which everybody, you know, just kind of crumbles or yells at me about. Don't worry about that.
00:42:20
Speaker
Um, do you this particular some of the things you said, um You got a curious mind. I have a curious mind deeply interested in a lot of things Some might say too too too many things. I don't know what the limits are Never how do you do? How do you uh, how do you end up directing? Are you curious? You talked a lot of people you learn a lot of things. How does that uh end up? How do you end up?
00:42:44
Speaker
you know, working the flow of what you're going to create out of all that. How do you, how do you figure that out? Or is that the problem? Yeah, it's a problem. That's why I've always doing too many things at the same time. Um, for me, it's those things that you can't forget. And I, or there's a quote I heard once that you haven't thought about it right. If you haven't thought about it twice. And I think it's those things that you just, they're there and I have a feeling sometimes like I had a feeling
00:43:14
Speaker
Beautiful Brain was not something I would have been interested in in terms of, I really liked sport documentaries, but I hadn't ever made one. I'd made a science podcast, but I'd never been interested in it at that level. But it was meeting Dawn, one of the contributors, and I knew in that moment, the second I met her, I had to tell her story. So that might come first, for example, rather than I'm going to do something about
00:43:40
Speaker
dementia in sport, it was like, I've met this person, her story, what is this story? And then it just grows and grows and grows and grows and grows. So it's those things that they just grabbed me or I wake up thinking about it. Like with anthems, I had the idea and I wrote it as a note on my note app on my phone. And then over Christmas, I was like finessing it. And I knew because I was supposed to be on
00:44:08
Speaker
time off over Christmas, but I just had this thing going round. And then as soon as we came back to work on January 2nd, I was like, I've got this idea. And we made it straight away. So I think it's just those things that I can't let go of. And, you know, there are things that are really important to me, like raising women's voices, you know, dismantling patriarchy. And, you know, I guess miscarriages of justice
00:44:38
Speaker
are sort of where I sit. You know, I'd want things that I'd make to have a social impact. So that does sort of narrow it down a little. But yeah, now I've sort of, I hone in on the things that I really want to do. And I'm very lucky that I can just make my work. I very rarely do someone else's project. I've just taken on a music project, though, commissioned to make music for someone else's documentary.
00:45:04
Speaker
But that's about as far as I'll go now. Any documentary ideas or I guess written ideas are all mine now, which is an amazing place to be in my career. You don't have to make other people's stuff. But then it means I'm authentically invested. I don't have to kind of pull that from a different source, you know, like my heart's in it.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah, and just hearing you fight for that space that is so vital. I mean, you talked about the environment.
00:45:35
Speaker
you know, that exists. And I think anything that we present creatively and who it represents, you know, is just vital.
Diversity in Storytelling
00:45:46
Speaker
I've learned so much by simply talking to folks. And I've been astounded at the level of my ignorance, master's degrees. I'm a smart guy. People say you're a smart guy. I do all this type of stuff.
00:46:00
Speaker
I was, you know, just dumbfounded by like, holy shit, you didn't know anything about that. And you thought you did. And, um, you know, the tripping, tripping aggressively is totally, it isn't, you know, that you, you know,
00:46:18
Speaker
there's this kind of idea especially in the UK that you can kind of pick and choose what parts of like equality you want or what parts of diversity you want and it's like it's very simple you either believe in it or you don't you're either in or you're out there's no like i'll take a little bit of this and a bit of this but you can keep that bit it's like no and yes that's really hard no one said it was easy and you have to really train yourself so every decision you make is again founded in who am i representing am i the best person to tell this story what's missing
00:46:47
Speaker
I ask myself that all the time. Anytime we put anything out as broccoli, those are the questions we ask. And are we always going to get it right? No, we're not. But do we always try? Absolutely. And we'll keep going until, you know, now I feel like it's second nature. It wasn't in the beginning. You know, you have to kind of constantly, like you said, trip, interrogate, speak. You know, you can't do everything by yourself either, which is a misconception as well. But yeah, that's essential because
00:47:17
Speaker
I do have this massive position of privilege in that I get to decide what goes out on a platform that's listened to by millions of people. So I want to make sure that I'm serving the people that need to be served or that currently aren't being served by the content that's being made or the voices that are being heard. And hopefully that's
00:47:44
Speaker
That's always been our Emma at Broccoli and we were hoping other people would follow suit, but that remains to be seen, but we're still going to do it because, and also we want to do it. It's not like someone said, you know, you have to be diverse. It's like, we want to do that. Like that's always been what we wanted to do. So, but again, I think people, it's not easy, but nothing good ever is, right? Right. Well, uh,
00:48:13
Speaker
Hannah, I have a particular question, which is the something rather than
Why Something Rather Than Nothing
00:48:21
Speaker
nothing question. I'll pose it, but I have the sense I could be a little bit cheeky with you. I know the answer to why there's something rather than nothing, and I don't think I've announced it on the show, although
00:48:31
Speaker
It's been said before, and because of being from the London area, Douglas Abb, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, already gave humanity the answer to the question of why is there something rather than nothing? Why is there anything? It's the number 42. So I know that that's already out there, okay?
00:48:56
Speaker
For you, Hannah, if that isn't the right answer, the number 42, why is there something rather than nothing? I don't know. Oh, do you know what? I was like, oh, God, how am I even going to answer this? You could say 42. I gave you it out. I don't know. I was like, oh, how can I be really profound and throw it back at you?
00:49:26
Speaker
And I've been nervous about you thrown back. Look, I know you're a podcaster and I'm like, if there's somebody that's going to be like, I'm going to use my authority right now and turn it back around and be you. But I've had you, I've had you on the spot the whole time. What's the question again? Why is there something? Why is there something rather than nothing? Why is there anything? Why is there, why does anything exist? Why are we, what's going on? Oh God.
00:49:59
Speaker
Do you know what it is? Right, this might be totally off-piste. Give it a shot. Because there is still hope. That's why. Yeah. Because without that, you know, there is nothing. But we still have hope and whether that is
00:50:22
Speaker
you know, for the pandemic to be over, for a better world, for a future, for even on a micro level, you know, hope to, you know, have a holiday next year. We still have that. Yeah. And that's why. No, and thank you because that point shouldn't be dismissed in the times that we're in.
00:50:48
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. I'm hopeful. Yeah, so there's something to be hopeful for as well. You can keep your 42. Yeah, I just throw it out there. It came from your area, so I figured I'd throw it out. Yeah, thank you.
00:51:12
Speaker
So I just want to open up here at the end. Gosh, I mean, obviously we could have talked a whole bunch about the particulars of the material that you produced. There's a lot. We could do that. But I just wanted to hand over the time to you.
00:51:33
Speaker
think your work is amazing. I only think that that's a factual statement in my experience. But I want others to people to be able to experience it. So you can just take the time you need to kind of say, here's where you can find the things. This is what's going on. And I mentioned zombie mom, which I love. And you know, tell us about, you know, where to find the stuff you're involved with.
00:51:56
Speaker
Sure, so you can find most things or the links to things on my website, which is just my full name, Hannah Walker Brown, hannahspelt, h-a-n-a dot com. There's links to kind of sound pieces through there. There's all the details about my book on there. There's also links to Broccoli, the production company that I'm creative director of on there, which is where Zombie Mum lives.
00:52:23
Speaker
So that's probably your best port of call and then off that you can kind of explore. I'm launching a blog on there at the end of this month. Although when does this come out?
00:52:35
Speaker
This will be out in a couple of weeks. So yes. Yeah. So probably like now ish. I wanted a space for my writing. If you follow me on Instagram, you follow me on Instagram. I like to write a lengthy caption. And I was like, I'm not using this. This is a photo app. I'm going to go and write somewhere else. So I'll still direct you there. You used to write it now. You want to write. I've always wanted to write. That's the thing I wanted to do since I was a kid. So now I'm doing it. I just need to enjoy it a bit more, I think, and stop.
00:53:05
Speaker
putting in saying pressure on myself. But yeah, my website hannahwalkerbrown.com is where you can find everything you might want to listen to or read or watch. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:19
Speaker
And thanks. And again, when listeners go there, they'll still see what's going on because, like I said, I just wanted to, as you've been able to tell, I feel it a true honor for you to spend time on. Oh, it's a pleasure. Yeah.
00:53:39
Speaker
You know, I honestly like the nature of the conversation. Obviously there's the personal interest of seeing how you, your mind is like figuring and thinking about things. And, um, I appreciate your openness to, to, to make those comments and, and, you know, kind of like let us in, um, because, you know, uh, not everybody does that, right? You and I know that and it's not easy to do. So I wanted to.
00:54:05
Speaker
thank you directly and particularly it is an honor for the show. That's a pleasure. And you know what it is, and I think this is something I've always thought about is it is easier if someone else goes first. You know, if I'm willing to open up, if I'm willing to be vulnerable, you know, by default, it also gives other people permission to as well. So I think it's important. And that's not to say everyone needs to go in, you know, heart's bad, like this is how I'm feeling, but
00:54:36
Speaker
I do believe that, you know, courage, if I'm courageous, I just hope it would inspire someone else or show them that it's okay to be like that as well, you know? So yeah, I mean, I'm pretty hot on my sleeve if you get me going. But yeah, I just, and again, it makes it easier to make documentaries,
00:55:04
Speaker
to be in that situation with other people, if they can see that that's how you are as well. It's that permission. I think we're always looking for permission. We need to know that something is okay before we do it. And I hope that that's what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. You know, and a walk and a deep pleasure. And, uh, gosh, I sure hope we get a chance to chat again soon. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:55:37
Speaker
This is something rather than nothing.