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Episode 27 - Dialogue: What Makes it Good?
1.9k Plays3 months ago
PushingUpRoses and Matt Aukamp talk about dialogue trees in adventure games; What makes them good? What makes them bad? Do you skip them? Matt says some stuff that's likely to get him cancelled by Sierra-heads. Plus, PlayDate with Matt and RANKING EVERY ADVENTURE GAME EVER.
We don't know. Whatever makes sense.
Email us! [email protected]
Games Mentioned:
- The Crimson Diamond
- King’s Quest IV
- Fallout: New Vegas
- The Keyper
- Mars After Midnight
- Papers, Please
- Grim Fandango
- Disco Elysium
- The Curse of Monkey Island
- Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
- Justin Wack and the Big Time Hack
- The Dagger of Amon Ra
- Willy Morgan and the Curse of Bone Town
- The Adventures of the Black Hawk
- Legend of Skye
- King’s Quest V and VI
- Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers
- Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars
- Danganronpa series
- Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney series
- Hatoful Boyfriend
- HuniePop
- Murder, She Wrote (The Game!)
- Dark Grim Mariupolis
- Byzantine: The Betrayal
- Minecraft: Story Mode
Recommended
Transcript
Politician's Relatability Stunt
00:00:00
Speaker
your standard politician during a campaign trying to look relatable by doing something normal. And it's JD Vance going to a donut shop that clearly they did not call ahead. He did not plan. No, like if that were me, this is like my worst nightmare.
00:00:21
Speaker
And he says to one employee, like, how long you worked have you worked here? She says six months. And he says to another. and And she says, I don't want to be on camera. And he goes, yeah, yeah, just cut her out. OK, that's not what that means. Yeah, he goes. And he goes, I'm ah J.D. Vance. I'm running for vice president. And she goes, OK.
00:00:42
Speaker
Then he turns the other employee who happens to walk into frame and he's like, hey, how long have you worked here? And he's like, I don't know, what, two years? Like come clearly just so fed up with this. Clearly like, I have work to do, man. What is this? What is that? What is this Dalulu land that they are living in that they think, let's take our entire camera crew into this local donut shop. without Yeah. Without clearly, again, without giving them like warning yeah any sort of warning and they're just like so they're looking at him like we don't you haven't asked for any donuts man and so he i don't know some sprinkle one is why he goes he quote whatever makes sense
00:01:27
Speaker
It's a donut. Whatever makes sense. What do you mean whatever makes sense? Have you ever had a donut? I've had so much trouble figuring out these donut things so how about you just figure you're the look you're the donut expert I don't I don't know what goes on ah on a donut I mean it's lox and salmon shit that the sprinkle was what it What is this? He's like, I'll just have a pizza. I don't know. Maybe one with like, do you have ones with tomatoes smashed up on the bread? and the bread what Whatever makes sense. This guy not eating a doughnut in 10 years?
00:02:06
Speaker
it snow better way like for him to like, debt for he's communicating to these employees like, I'm just gonna throw these away when we get out the door. Absolutely he is. And you know, like donuts haven't changed in the last like 10 years. You can still get just a chocolate donut, sir. I just, this is my worst nightmare. My worst nightmare is for somebody to drag a camera crew in, and andpro like unprompted and just start filming.
00:02:38
Speaker
I'd be like, sir, I have major body dysmorphia, and if you don't get the fuck out of here, I'm gonna shove these donuts down your nose.
Why JD Vance's Strategy Fails
00:02:44
Speaker
You know she wanted to say, yeah, I know who you are, and you suck. I know. Like, you know that that's what she meant by, I don't want to be on camera. Like, I don't want to be seen with you. Right. And he turned this is thing, he asked her how long she's been there, she says six months. She asked how long the other guy's been there, says, she's, the guy says six months. And then he does this weird donut stuff, asks how long the place has been open.
00:03:06
Speaker
and then he turns to the first girl again and says how long have you been here and she says six months again you know how we overuse the term cringe Yeah, this is c this is cringe. This is yes, this is what that term was made for. It is JD Vets trying to order donuts. And he's not showing any enthusiasm or anything like, oh, if they are trying, if if your campaign is bringing you to a place like this.
00:03:40
Speaker
It's because they want to show people how you're relatable, how you're just like them. And what you have to do is go, oh, my God, I love donuts. Oh, what's this one? Oh, man, I've never seen one with blue icing. or It's not that hard. No, no. It's not that hard. It's unbelievable.
Hosts Share Donut Preferences
00:04:00
Speaker
Look, I hate to get all political on this show, but Look, I care about donuts. Do you know how often I eat donuts? Wait, how often do you eat donuts? Oh, probably only like once a week. But still, that's once a week. That's actually a lot, though. If you're eating donuts once a week, that's kind of a lot. I'd say I have about one donut a week.
00:04:23
Speaker
It is my, I'll be honest, the same way that I think cheese pizza is like a perfect food. I think a glazed donut is nearly perfect. Yeah. um But I'll often go for it. But like some of my favorites are like Boston cream, strawberry frosted. Sure. Oh, the Homer? Yeah, the Homer, exactly. um I am ah lately as in the past, I don't know, five years. I wasn't into these when I was younger, but like a double chocolate, like a chocolate donut with chocolate icing, holy shit.
Authenticity in Campaigns
00:04:58
Speaker
That's a lot. Oh my God, that's so much chocolate. But can you guess what my favorite donut is? Also, I'm offended that he went in there and got like a cinnamon roll.
00:05:09
Speaker
I just, look, I'm from the Midwest. We go to Ann Sathers and we get huge cinnamon rolls. But anyway, can you guess what is my? He was just saying, that he wasn't even, he didn't even, you realize he didn't even see a cinnamon donut. He was just saying things he thinks are on desserts. He's it's like it know I know, cinnamon, whatever. Lot of glazes in here, lot of glaze.
00:05:53
Speaker
I still can't get over that. There's there's a lot of glazes. A lot of glaze. Glaze here. mean I don't know. what Whatever makes sense. I love it when people fail at relatability. Just the irony is not lost on me. Okay. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to you Save Your Game. I am your host, PushingUpRoses. And with me, as always, is the enigmatic, the great taste in donuts, Madaw Camp.
00:06:21
Speaker
Hey everybody, i I don't know. I just like whatever makes sense, really. I just like, wanna go into a donut shop and just be like, just give me whatever, or even a coffee. Yeah, whatever makes sense. Whatever makes sense. i I love the idea of like, if somebody asks you what your favorite thing is.
00:06:40
Speaker
just getting overwhelmed drunk and right away. and being I don't know, chris whatever makes sense. got a first If you're like on a first date and somebody's like, what sort of music do you like? i um yeah and Taylor, like, swift taylor did what makes sense.
00:06:58
Speaker
like
00:07:03
Speaker
That's my favorite thing in the world. i need to like I need to put that in a riff or or a video at some point because I think it's so funny. Just whatever makes
New Video Production Challenges
00:07:11
Speaker
sense. Speaking of videos. ah Yeah. I hear you got one coming out soon. I do. I got a video done, you guys. in No way. I know. I'm shocked myself. ah Yeah, so I finally got my Crimson Diamond video done.
00:07:25
Speaker
And I think it took a little longer just because I, I came back from vacation. I got sick with two completely unrelated sicknesses, really annoying. And then my tooth hurt and I was just all over it, but I did get it done and I wanted to be very thorough. I wanted to try to make this as thorough as I could, uh, because it is, you know, the Crimson diamond is based on or influenced by some of my very favorite games.
00:07:51
Speaker
So when that happens, I like to reference back and forth and I like to pick things like what you might like about this game that you didn't like about the other game. Right. And it's hard. I even say as much in the review, I don't want to compare things too heavily, but I will be using this as a reference because, you know, there are going to be things you liked from this game that you didn't and the others. And here's why. Right. So I tried to make it really, really thorough and detailed.
00:08:19
Speaker
That's awesome. and So you finished. So I mean, clearly you finally finished the game. I did. I did as well. It's so good. you Do you get this feeling, though, that you're like, oh, man, if I if I wasn't a semi professional game reviewer or, ah you know, i I didn't have to talk about games every week, like I would have wanted to savor this thing. I would have wanted to like.
00:08:46
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like I did savor it for me personally, because I had been looking forward to it for so long. I had started streaming it and sharing it with my with my viewers. And and i I'm definitely late on the bandwagon. like All the other outlets have their reviews out. And I even told Julie, I'm like, it's taking a while. I'm just trying to. I just want to make it thorough for
Mystery Game Challenges
00:09:08
Speaker
you. you know I don't want to just play it and and throw something out there.
00:09:13
Speaker
But I did. I know that like a lot of mystery games, there are more than one ending. I only got two endings and I did not get the best, best ending because I missed something very early on that I was just infuriated by. And and it happened on the street, yeah too. And I knew. And as soon as I found the evidence and Nancy's and her monologue went off, she's like, oh, man, I wish I knew what was in here. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. I have opened every single cabinet except this one. Except that one.
00:09:42
Speaker
Except this one that's in our room even I could not believe I was I was upset You know, um, oh My god, I was just about to say something and i totally blame Was it about cabinets just say whatever makes sense like Just just imagine I said whatever makes sense and respond to that One of the things I say in the review that I'll say to you right now is that I'm very impressed. And this is why I refrain from calling it like a simple love letter to the Colonel's request or dagger. is because it kept its own personality in the way that it didn't copy the deaths from what it's inspired from. And I'm sure that must have been very tempting, you know, because the things that people remember about the Colonel's request and about Dagger, Dagger especially,
00:10:40
Speaker
are these insane murders. They're very much in line with Agatha Christie, and then there were none. But I think the dev resisted temptation because they had their own direction. Julia had her own direction that she wanted to take this game. And right it's not meant to be a copy.
00:10:57
Speaker
of the Colonel's bequest. It also kept me very on edge because I'm like, is there is there go to be a body in
Nostalgia in Gaming
00:11:03
Speaker
here? Is there a body? Where's the body? So I felt like scared the whole time. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Death was a ah well, at least murders or, you know, people die. Other characters dying was a way smaller part of the game than I it is expected after at least after the first one happened.
00:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that's a very wise choice. um Yeah, because otherwise, you know, otherwise you really are just copying yeah the colonels because and that's not that's not what we want. We want inspired by not complete copy. There's some characters that can die that you can save from dying. That's true. That is true. Yep. and I'll say that. But yeah, my in my play through.
00:11:51
Speaker
um Boy, I think only one person died. Yeah, same. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so ah I think, yeah, I'm really, if we knew we'd be impressed with it because the trailers and- The demo. Demo and the preview artwork were all so good. Man, yeah, that art style though. Julia Minamata had such a, yeah
00:12:22
Speaker
thoughtful view on what she was doing. Like it was the sort of thing you're like, this is I know this is going to be good. And it it works. It was just it was as good as we thought it was going to be. So there was somebody who was like, this game is getting a positive ah reception. right um But obviously, artwork is not perfect. And there's always going to be someone who doesn't like it. And somebody said, what did they say that I was like, oh, they're like, yeah, I like the game. But it doesn't have that sense of humor that Sierra Games had. I'm like, what Sierra game did you play? I just want to know.
00:12:56
Speaker
Cause I don't, I don't consider the, I consider the Sierra games accidentally goofy. yeah I don't consider them funny. You know, I just don't, I understand sort of what you're saying, maybe the space quest games, but I, what, what are you talking about? There was very little, and I mean the humor, ah ah man, cause the humor in a Sierra game was either either unintentional because yeah the game was just silly and corny or yeah just so ridiculously hard that you can't help but laugh at it or it was like the sort of humor
00:13:35
Speaker
It was like, not even dad humor, but like- Toilet humor sometimes. Either toilet humor, grandparent, like uncle humor. It felt like your uncle who's not funny, but wants to be the funny uncle. Pretty much all times. like And I love the Sierra games. I love them. And yeah and most games most adventure games do have something funny about them. Right.
00:14:00
Speaker
You know, most most most ah serious movies might have a joke in them, you know what I mean? this kind But i would not I would not be like, ah, yes, the Sierra sense of humor. I'm like, I can't pin down what that is. Is it Leisure Suit Larry? Is it King's Quest V and it's is it Dagger with its corniness? No, I just don't.
00:14:21
Speaker
I don't know what this person is talking about. If you said like the Lucas Arts type of humor, I think I would understand that a little bit more. But yeah, that's just I just had a beef with that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I hear. I mean, well, there's a lot. And this is isn't this is a nostalgia problem. And I know we often ah dunk on nostalgia here. But nostalgia makes you there's the way things actually were and there's the way you think that you remember.
00:14:49
Speaker
things. Right. Right. And I mean, all of these games have that right, especially like LucasArts games, there is, when you see ah games inspired by them, you start to get this feeling in your head like, oh yeah, this is what those games were like. And then you go back and play those games and see how different they are, like how many improvements have been made over time and to these formulas and these writing styles. And it's like,
00:15:24
Speaker
not very few of us are remembering them correctly. Plus there's the idea of for like how it felt to us when this was the first time we'd ever seen it. you Right. You feel like you have so much choice and freedom in say those LucasArts games because you're not used to a game with that level of choice and freedom to affect the story. And then you come but back later and you're like, oh, you don't, the story is super linear. You don't affect it at all. Yeah. um Yeah.
00:15:52
Speaker
I mean, I guess that's kind of the magic of certain adventure games anyway. Right. Like you sometimes get to have somebody say a different line to you. You can never ever get to change the story. But in your memory for a lot of people, it's like. Oh, yeah, these are games where you can. And that's why we got all those like sort of choose your own adventure style like telltale games, because that's not how they were. That's how we remember.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think you should just rely on nostalgia for getting you through things hard things all the time, but I definitely do find comfort in some of those things, especially, again, I again i talk about it in the video. You know what, just go watch my video. It'll be out, I think, by this time, so just, it will, it'll be out by this
King's Quest Series Analysis
00:16:42
Speaker
time, so go. Yeah, go watch the video. Go watch it, and you can hear me gush ah about my personal life.
00:16:49
Speaker
it's called It's called pushing up roses gushing on ah don't look bad youtube.com.
00:16:58
Speaker
But anyway, that really, the section I think we kind of nailed, because really all I've been playing is the Crimson Diamond four much for my video. But I did also, you know, when I do these videos, I have to capture footage from other games if I don't have it already. yeah yeah And i I had to get some from King's Quest IV, because again, it's very similar dithering style and similar music.
00:17:23
Speaker
kind of started playing that again. And King's Quest 4 is the game in that franchise that I've played the least, but arguably is one of the most interesting in in the entire series. It's a very interesting, serious, ah very fantastical game that looks gorgeous. That is the Perils of Rosella. It is, yeah. And it is the first King's Quest game, I think the first Sierra game?
00:17:51
Speaker
to star a woman or had Colonel's Quest come out yet? Yeah, it was because ah King's Quest IV was 88 and Colonel's Quest is 89. Right. um Yeah, Perils of Rosella was definitely an interesting game. It's one of the King's Quest games. So King's Quest III had that opening sequence that was very unlike any of their other games. You are a...
00:18:21
Speaker
basically like a servant boy and you are being, you were sort of trapped in the house of like a wizard. And before you go on your adventure, you have to figure out basically how to escape this guy. And it's a big, big chunk of the game.
00:18:36
Speaker
yeah um But Perils of Rosella sort of goes back to, while progressing the thing in some ways, right? By making you a woman by,
00:18:49
Speaker
um the graph the graphics get a bit of an update. yeah um It still goes back to the formula of Kings Quest I and II, where you just sort of go out into a grid and wander around and do absurd things ah to make other absurd things happen.
00:19:10
Speaker
Definitely. it Definitely. Although I will say I think the tone of Perils of Rosella is way different. The stakes are very high in this game. Right. That's true. The stakes are very high. ah the The world is a more serious, to me, it's a more serious world, you know, touched by ah grief and and magic.
00:19:32
Speaker
I just yeah. And I just really like I really like that game. I enjoy playing it from time to time, even though that's not one of the the main ones I grew up on. The main one I grew up on was three, which is a wild introduction to the King's Quest games. Imagine being introduced to the King's Quest games and there's no King Graham. And that's your introduction. Right. It'd be so hard to go after playing three. If you played three first, it would be hard to go back to the first two games because they'd seem so so ah I don't know, simplistic. Yeah, I played three first and then five. So Mike was all over the damn place. Rosella has one sequence that is really interesting, where you're basically just walking around a haunted house and every ghost
00:20:22
Speaker
need something in order to move on. Yeah. Yeah. I love that part. That is that is one of the more interesting sequences of early Sierra games. Yeah. i really I really liked it. I thought it was very mature. It feels like it has something to even if the thing it has to say is a little hackneyed, right? It has something to say yeah where so little of Sierra up to that point had anything to actually say.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, it was a great step in in maturing, honestly, ah graphically, musically, um and story, I think. So yeah, it's honestly, it should get more credit. i Ever since we talked about our favorite non-adventure games last week and I mentioned Fallout New Vegas. Uh-huh.
00:21:12
Speaker
I have been playing so much Fallout New Vegas. I have been just like, I've gotten back into it in such a big way.
Reviving Fallout New Vegas
00:21:21
Speaker
What happened was I watched the H bomber guy video on why Fallout New Vegas was such a genius game and it just made me want to- It just inspired you? Yeah, I just want to be playing Fallout. I don't want to be watching this anymore. I just want to- I just want to play Fallout New Vegas. And it's just so good. It's just such a good game. I don't need to go on about it right now, but it's incredible. I've never played any of the Fallout games. i You know, I would. I don't know. you I don't know. Do you? Are you into you? so You're not right. You're not into these big open world RPGs, though.
00:22:07
Speaker
I don't know, it's such a varying thing for me. I can get into almost any genre as long as it it hits something for me. With your like love of classic games, I would maybe suggest you start with like the first two Fallout games, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Well, then again, you do not like ah isometric top-down. I do not. No, I do not. So maybe that would not be a place to start. But I think story-wise, that would be, I think that might be, that and New Vegas would be the ones you would be really into.
00:22:54
Speaker
I think, I think so too. Um, I mean, granted, like I didn't think I would like disco Elysium and I ended up loving it. So I just, one of those things where I have to give something a chance all right like anything else. Right. Um, I would suggest that I would suggest starting with fallout new Vegas, if that doesn't capture use, then maybe jump back to fallout one.
00:23:17
Speaker
And if that doesn't capture you, then it's not gonna. OK, fair, fair. Because I mean, I mean, the most famous one is probably Fallout 3 or maybe Fallout 4, but they are. ah They pale in comparison. Yeah, yeah,
Exploring Playdate Games
00:23:35
Speaker
I've heard that um New Vegas is certainly a little bit of an outlier, a little bit different right than the other ones. That is definitely true. Yeah.
00:23:45
Speaker
Um, okay. Yeah. Why don't we move on to our, well, you've got a theme to throw up. I was always going to play a grim. Well, I didn't. Okay. Are you ready? Yep. Is everyone ready? Oh my goodness. Hear me. All right. Here we go.
00:24:08
Speaker
I did a dance. You couldn't see it, but I did it. Hi, everybody. It's Playdate with Matt. It is Segment Inside the Podcast. Save Your Game hosted by me, Matt Auchenpeth, my co-host here, Pushing Up Roses. Pushing Up Roses, would you like to hear about what I've been playing on the Playdate?
00:24:22
Speaker
yes OK, so but I said, no, OK, we just say we just play the play the theme again. so So ah I have been playing a ah game that actually surprised me a little bit. There's a game called The Keeper, ah K E Y P E R, and I started playing it and it seemed incredibly simple. Like I seemed like ah it seemed like I knew exactly what I was in for.
00:24:51
Speaker
ah because you play just like sort of a cluster of pixels. but yeah Like the way that in Atari games you see, ah like a person is represented.
00:25:04
Speaker
yeah um And you get, ah your uncle dies and he leaves you. in charge of his like apartment building that he runs. And he tells you there's a treasure hidden within the walls and you go figure it out. So you go in and basically it seems like you're just finding keys. And basically that's what the game is. You have to just collect keys. Oh, I love collecting keys though. And so you collect keys to like the various rooms in the first floor and there's somebody who's like, I won't let you go to the second floor until you get enough keys. And you're like,
00:25:42
Speaker
Okay, i guess I guess this is what it's about, and you yeah you like fetch something for somebody, they go, ah ah they're like, oh, thank you, and then you go find them again, and they're like, here's your key, and it's kind of just like, okay, I know what this is about, and then you find a key called the heart key, and you kind of don't know what to do with it, and so you just sort of walk up to like a crack in the wall, and it's like, oh, there's a space here that seems to fit the heart key, And it transitions you into this wild sort of surreal aspect of the game where you're wandering in between the walls in like these negative spaces that lead to these ah ah whimsical,
00:26:25
Speaker
impossible locations. And meeting these people that all have, rather than just being like, oh, I need a sandwich. And you get them a sandwich and they're like, here's your key. It's like people that might not even give you anything. and They're just sort of whimsically talking about their experiences and their surroundings. And it ended up being a lot deeper and more interesting than I expected from it. Cool. um And the puzzle, and like the It's sort of a game about being lost and all of the characters you meet are all lost in a certain way. yeah There's a there's so man who like, and and sometimes it's there's jokes in it, right? Like there's a man who hasn't left his apartment since his girlfriend left him and and he just hangs out in his apartment and hears the voices through the walls. And then you find out his girlfriend
00:27:24
Speaker
is just in the wall and has been and has felt herself. she She got lost in the wall the same way you are and. Oh, I see. Felt herself.
00:27:35
Speaker
ah drifting away from humanity. And now she feels too uncomfortable to talk to people to ever talk to him in person again. So she just watches him and talks to him through the wall. But there's another guy who was lost while looking for one of his keys. And he just ends up in this beautiful area that he feels like gives him some sort of purpose. And he doesn't want to leave because it it it's meaningful to him. and Yeah, it's oh but it was a way.
00:28:04
Speaker
more interesting of a game than it seems to be at first. So that's the key. I am so impressed that some of these games you've been talking about are so deep and just like touching. You know what I mean? If you've seen the play date, you're not going to immediately think I'm going to get a grand, very touching experience from this. Right.
00:28:25
Speaker
Uh, but I guess you would be surprised by what you can do. A lot of these experiences are small and cute, so a little bit of meaning goes a long way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mars After Midnight Gameplay
00:28:37
Speaker
That's true. So, uh, the other game I've been playing and this had to be talked about at some point is, and you've mentioned Papers, Please earlier, uh, is Mars After Midnight. It is the Lucas Pope game. Oh, okay.
00:28:52
Speaker
Um, that he made for the play date and what you do. So there's a, uh, you are a Martian. that runs a series of support groups for Martians with like very specific issues. And so every night this, like ah I think like a shipping company, they close down and instead they open up to, again, these very specific support groups. So it'll be like, um
00:29:25
Speaker
Uh, there will be a support group for Cyclops, angry Cyclops is Cyclops is with anger issues or a support group for, um, like, uh, small. I can't remember what it says it's called, but basically bugs holding knives. So ah you man the door and you use the crank to open and close. You get a knock at the door and you use the crank to open and close the, the shutter.
00:29:54
Speaker
on the door and you sort of evaluate if the person outside but belongs in the support group or not. So the Cyclops one is a really easy tutorial, right? yeah Because even though these creatures are all bizarre looking.
00:30:11
Speaker
you can sort of start to try and figure out, okay, who has one eye and who doesn't? And you might be wrong, right? Like you might think something's an eye and it's not an eye because they have a very weird biology, but you sort of, you know, maybe you wait for them to blink or something. yeah And if they have one eye, you let them in and then they'll eat a snack and then you have to clean up the snack. So those are your two, those are your two, those are your two, like, um,
00:30:41
Speaker
those are the two main bits of gameplay is choosing who to let in and snacks. Unlike Papers, yeah Please, there's not really a there's not really an ethical dilemma. It is really just a question of who you let in and who you don't. yeah And ah then you go home every night and go to sleep and you dream about things on earth. And eventually you meet somebody who ah can sell you different interesting things. Like, for example, he sells you a translator. And then when people make their weird Martian noises at you, you sort of you start cataloging them in the trailer, the translator, so you know like you can, they'll make a noise and or be like h1 and you go to h1 and h1 will be like, you know, how's, how's your night? And you're like, Oh, okay, now we know what these people are saying to me. Oh, okay, that's cool. ah But one thing he's selling,
00:31:39
Speaker
is a ticket off colony. okay And again, every night. So you do make money based on how if you let the right people in, if the like the support group helps them and if they like the snacks, you make money. And so you start you're starting to think like it is an impossible goal. You make about twelve dollars. If you do it perfectly, you make about twelve dollars per night. But the ticket off colony is one hundred thousand dollars. Oh, my God.
00:32:11
Speaker
Right. So you know it's an impossible goal. But again, every night you see this guy go to sleep and you see him dream about like ah the Statue of Liberty or the Easter Island heads or um or ah Stonehenge. Yeah.
00:32:27
Speaker
And you just get this, like, oh, he really wants to go to Earth. And it's so deep. I just like it so much. It's very. And ah so I'm really I haven't finished it yet. I'm really interested. Like there's some ridiculous ones, right? Like that there's the bugs with knives. There's one that's like farty party. There's one that's like the top.
00:32:47
Speaker
the twitchy, like twitchy support group or something like that. So you have a horn. And when they answer the door, you beep the horn at them. And if they don't twitch and shudder, you don't laugh. My favorite so far has been the shy smilers support. for So you have to open the window just like a little bit and then find their mouth and then see if they're smiling and if they are if you open it the rest of the way do they keep smiling or do they stop smiling and if they they so if you see them smiling a little creepy like that sounds like you'd be a jump scare you you open the window and they their smile goes away then you know they're a shy smiler and they don't belong if they belong in the support group
00:33:37
Speaker
ah So Mars After Midnight, it's really good. ah I will report back when I get to an ending, because like again, I know a lot of people aren't gonna be able to play these Playdate games, so. Yeah, for sure. I feel like I can be a little more spoilery. um But it's ah really interesting, really good. ah A very ah sweet but less maybe morally complex follow-up to Papers, Please.
00:34:06
Speaker
Yeah, but still pretty complex by what you're saying. yeah Yes. Yes. Yeah. It sounds pretty complex. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. So all right. Why don't we get out of here and then throw up swanky. Oh, double songs. Double songs. All right. Here we go.
Game Dialogue Trees
00:34:28
Speaker
Let's do it.
00:34:36
Speaker
Playdate with my Everyone welcome back to save your game I'm your host pushing up roses with me as always the play the Playdate master
00:35:01
Speaker
Hey, it's me, I'm Matt. um I'm your other host. What are we talking about today? Today, I would like to discuss, because we kind of we've talked about this, I think, both on both on recording and both off recording, is dialogue trees. And when does it become too sparse? And when does it become too long-winded? And the reason I kind of thought about this is because we were talking about the Crimson Diamond, and we were discussing
00:35:33
Speaker
You know, maybe wanting more dialogue. At least I was. That's part of part of my review, as I was saying. Right. you know Maybe I want more. But then also we have these games, you know, historically, especially in adventure games where you start to click through. Right. I think we've all done it. We've all clicked through.
00:35:53
Speaker
And I'm wondering, I'm actually kind of wondering, and we might not have an answer to this, but it's an interesting question. Why? Why are we clicking through if the game is good, if it's telling us something interesting? What what is happening where finally our brain kind of gives a gives up and it is like, I don't want to I don't want to listen to this anymore. I need to click through. Right. I have some thoughts, but I yeah, I don't know that I i definitely don't have like an answer.
00:36:20
Speaker
I have some speculation. Yeah, same. But that's about it. Because if you think about like reading a book, for example, some people read ahead, but I think most people don't. I think most people, even if it's narrative heavy, keep reading.
00:36:35
Speaker
Right, ah so that's an interesting point. So I think one element of this, and not to just not to just jump in, but what you what you just said um relates to what I was thinking. I think one element of this is what what are we trying to get to? What's next? is yeah the thing i just So I just did something in the game. I just performed a verb. I just performed an action. and yeah ah solved a puzzle or made something happen. And I have an expectation now of what thing is going to do. If the expectation is I'm going to get dialogue. Then maybe at that point I have more patience for dialogue, but if my expectation shin is. I just opened a door in another room and then somebody walks in and makes me talk to them.
00:37:31
Speaker
for even 45 seconds. I'm like, I want to get to that room. Yeah. so Yeah. I agree. There is like this anxiety, right? Right. ah Because in adventure games, you always want to get to your next goal. You want to solve the next puzzle and you want there to be some kind of reward. And if the reward is just more talking, is that a reward? I mean, maybe to some people it is. I definitely have some examples of that too.
00:37:58
Speaker
I think in some cases it is and in some cases it's not. And yeah the way I think that relates to a book is what are you waiting for? What are you looking forward to? I can remember, and this is a bad example now just because of who this author has become, the monster this author has become, but I remember reading the 7th Harry Potter book and loving the prose.
00:38:19
Speaker
but just wanting to know what was going to happen next and feeling like, God, I wish I could just, I wish I could be skipping dialogue right now. I wish I could be getting the gist and clicking through because I am so stoked to figure out what's about to happen and right that I am i'm too impatient to just read a description of of whatever or listen to.
00:38:44
Speaker
character building dialogue, even if it's good. And and unfortunately, that ah horrible human whose name I won't mention is incredibly good at writing dialogue and prose, but was also also set up a seven book long payoff.
00:39:05
Speaker
Right. That you're just kind of like, I just I want to see what's happening next. Yeah, no, that's understandable. um And I also wonder like at what point, ah because you you made a good point there. It doesn't matter if it's good. It doesn't matter if it's good writing, you will tend to want to skip ahead. Um, and then I start to feel kind of bad. Um, and then I wonder like somebody spent time doing this. Yeah, exactly. At what point am I just like ignoring the art that this person has put in and yeah like, do you want to, do you, do you have anything more in general to say or do you want to like kind of talk about some examples?
00:39:42
Speaker
Well, when you say, yeah I think we'll probably get into this with examples, when you say ah it doesn't matter if it's good, I think good and bad
Engaging Dialogue in Classic Games
00:39:50
Speaker
definitely help. And there are ways to do good dialogue, there are ways to do bad dialogue and um ah yeah, okay, yeah, why don't we start to get into some specific examples?
00:40:02
Speaker
Okay, here's an interesting, this is an interesting example of a long-winded game that I don't think I've ever skipped dialogue in. And so I'm wondering if I can cross-reference this game to see what it did right. And maybe you you might agree, you might not agree. ah It's my favorite game of all time. It's Grim Fandango. I've never skipped dialogue. In fact, I've always sought out maybe even more dialogue with Grim.
00:40:28
Speaker
I love the dialogue trees in Grim Fandango. And they're not short. I would not call them terse. And I also wouldn't call them egregious, like like something like Discworld. But they're not short. This is a narrative game. This is a mystery, a noir. And it is based on narrative and story. So it's got a lot.
00:40:51
Speaker
And I'm trying to figure it out because I am more prone to skipping if it's voiced. I don't know if you feel, I bet you feel the same way. Do you feel more prone to skipping? Yes, because my reading pace usually outstrips the voice acting pace.
00:41:10
Speaker
right. But I have never skipped dialogue, and Grim, I love it always. And I wonder, I wonder if it has anything to do with it. Grim, Grim Fandango is one of those games where I really feel that it's voiced so naturally for a fantasy game. Like I believe that Manny Calavera is this real character. This is how he talks naturally. So when I'm doing like a video, for example,
00:41:34
Speaker
um what I'm narrating, right? I am using a different ah different voice. I might be talking slower or I might be projecting more, but I really do feel like conversationally Manny Calavera makes sense um and the other the other characters too as well. And maybe it's also a funny game. Maybe that has something to do with it.
00:41:57
Speaker
Right, i was going to yeah I was going to say also Sam and Max is a very long-winded game. And i yeah I do skip dialogue in Sam and Max now, yeah but I've definitely gone through playthroughs of Sam and Max where I didn't skip any dialogue ah because the voice acting is so good.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah. And the dialogue is funny. And here's a thing that here's one thing. I think there's a lot that go into these answers. But one thing that I think contributes to Grim and to Sam and Max is that there is just so much character in yeah each line. Yeah. Every line could only be said by that person in that yeah scenario.
00:42:44
Speaker
um I feel that way about Grim. In fact, I might feel that way about the majority of LucasArts games. Agreed. LucasArts does incredible dialogue. there is I can't think of a LucasArts game where I'm just like, ugh, and clicking my way through. yeah um And I think if I had to guess, i there's there's a thing in screenwriting and writing of all kinds, right, where after you write the thing, you go through and you look at every line. And every single line, you ask yourself, like, does this either advance the plot or reveal something about the character? And if not, it should probably go. Even if it's clever, even if it's well, even if it's thoughtful or well-worded, like, there's a 99% chance yeah that if it doesn't do one of those things, it should go.
00:43:43
Speaker
um And I think a lot of times people writing video games don't do that. They don't stop and think that through and they end up just like falling in love with their own cleverness. And so games that are even interesting or funny can b can be frustrating and you just wanna sort of click through the dialogue.
00:44:16
Speaker
I mean, I even like, cause we were talking about, you know, good quality versus bad quality writing. I want to be completely honest with you. I had a hard time sitting through disco Elysium. It is one of the most narrative heavy games I've ever played. And I think ah potentially the reason why is it starts to sound a little pretentious. It starts to sound like I'm that goth angsty girl.
00:44:43
Speaker
in my room speaking very poetically and dark and listening to my other voices in my head. I'm like, I don't know if I want to listen to this. um It is a long side text, so you can read the text. um And I wonder if that kind of enabled me to start clicking through it. But yeah, I think it got grating at times. There's a lot of voices in Disco Elysium, and not all of them are pleasant to listen to.
00:45:12
Speaker
Correct. ah um I do think that the dialogue in... So I definitely skipped in Disco Elysium. And the first time I played it, there wasn't all that much voice acting. Right, right. so there was So skipping was... So I guess by that skipping there, you would define as clicking through before you've read it all. Yeah. um And there was some of that, but I tried really hard not to because it was so well-written.
00:45:43
Speaker
But Disco Elysium also has something that, and I was thinking about this with um Fallout New Vegas, which also also has a lot of dialogue. um they're There are things that make it really rewarding. um And one of those things is, and I know a lot of most adventure games can't do this because it's just not how their mechanics work.
00:46:11
Speaker
but It's worth thinking about. One of the things is skill checks. It is so interesting to be in the middle of even a long dialogue and then suddenly you have a skill check. Yeah.
00:46:27
Speaker
And then even if all you're doing is clicking that button, you feel active. You feel like you're doing something. You feel like this is part of the gameplay. That's a really good point. That is a really good point. Yeah. And and I think LucasArts was really good about not having dialogue go back and forth too much without giving you something to say, without giving you a dialogue choice to click on.
00:46:53
Speaker
Right, I'm thinking i'm thinking to like um Monkey Island 3, where the you know you get dialogue trees, which are a little bit different. If you don't know what that is, I guess a quick explanation is you know you'll be talking to a non-playable character, and then you will get a selection of things that you can ah that you can reply with, or you can leave. I don't recommend that. But but you can. I'm just thinking about the trees and the curse of Monkey Island.
00:47:23
Speaker
And how it gave me again, it made me feel active. It made me feel like maybe there's a better response or maybe I'll just give this insane response and right see what happens, you know? And Monkey Island 3, actually a lot of LucasArts games were sort of the pioneers of this idea of dialogue trees matter. The way you navigate a dialogue tree can matter. Yes. And there were puzzles.
00:47:49
Speaker
that were based around is like you have to understand what you're saying and why so that you can say convince somebody to do something or trick somebody into doing something. um And those were, that made it engaging. You didn't know when one of those was happening. So you would be true you would be thinking about your responses and be trying to pay attention to what the people were saying to you. Cause you yeah thought like you didn't feel passive. It felt active.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, didn't didn't we we had just talked about Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis and there's a type of gameplay you can play that is just dialogue puzzles. Yes. Yeah. There's so much in that game that you don't you wouldn't even realize if you didn't know it was there that you failed a dialogue tree. That's why you're in a fight.
00:48:44
Speaker
that's why you have to solve a really hard puzzle. ah you could have if You could have solved it in the dialogue tree. Yeah, by talking it out, yeah. And I actually, I didn't even know that. If you recall on our episode, I did not even know that because it felt so natural to me.
00:49:03
Speaker
to just talk my way out of there, you know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I failed some of them. I had some inventory object puzzles, but I was just like, oh, this, I got to, I got to convince this guy because LucasArts, they know what they're doing with their dialogue trees. There are, and LucasArts was so good at it in a way that I don't think a lot of people fully digested, especially game makers, right? Because LucasArts inspired so many games yes that do not do it.
00:49:32
Speaker
the way LucasArts does. I'm thinking of, I'm gonna throw a couple games under the bus here and I apologize, but um ah Justin Wack and the Big Time Hack is a game I reviewed for, I think, Adventure Gamers. And it is very much LucasArts inspired.
00:49:47
Speaker
Mm hmm. And the writers are interested in trying to be clever at all times. And you again, you just feel like you're just sitting there watching the developers have fun rather than you have fun. Yeah. um Another game that was similar to that is ah I could picture it in my head and I cannot remember the name of it.
00:50:14
Speaker
You give me a hint? ah ah It was like it was I don't know that I could give you a hint. It was like, OK, here's your hint. It's like a boy and he does some he does a bunch of stuff. Oh, good. We've never had an adventure game like that before. Yes, I know he has to get 12 things at one point. What the hell is the name of this game?
00:50:39
Speaker
ah It'll come to me. So if but if you want to keep going. um Yeah, I mean, I really wanted to, I really want your opinion on really the eavesdropping and dagger because ah everybody knows by now, Dagger of Amon Ra is one of my favorite games.
Dialogue Overwhelm in Games
00:50:56
Speaker
I love that game. I don't love it more than Grim Fende for what I'm about to say. I know a flawed game when I when i play one. So in that game, there is an entire chapter or act, if you will,
00:51:10
Speaker
that is just eavesdropping. And even even when I first played it, I could not figure out how to even do it. And i think i I think you even texted me at some point, I'm like, you need to you need to do this, like that's not gonna trigger if you don't. And so when I was a kid,
00:51:28
Speaker
I couldn't get past that chapter. I didn't know what to do. Nothing was triggering. And I thought I had just like lost or something. But that yeah that whole chapter is just eavesdropping and also interrogation. and And so that game goes very hard on dialogue. Not only is the eavesdropping so long-winded, you kind of wonder if it's even necessary at that point.
00:51:53
Speaker
or if this could have been cold a little bit. So not only you're listening, but you're also, you're going around, you're opening your notebook. You're like, I got to ask you about this person and this person and this person. And it was almost, and not even almost, it was overwhelming because there's literally no adventure, game like traditional adventure game puzzles in that section. It is all talking all the time.
00:52:19
Speaker
And I feel bad because huh I felt bad not maybe skipping through it and not liking it because it really was acting as like an Agatha Christie esque thing. I'm trying to get to know these. I'm trying to unravel these stories and these scandals. And I'm just like, oh, I'm so over talking to everyone. ah Yeah, that's interesting. I don't remember feeling I think I was so involved in trying to solve the mystery at that point.
00:52:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, for you, it was your first playthrough, too. So maybe you were right trying to pay attention to it. But now if I go back to it, I'm just like, God damn. So yeah, I thought of, and and that's part of that problem of if you're not active in it, if you were just watching or listening, it can be really hard, even if the dialogue's good, to feel engaged.
00:53:14
Speaker
um so I was thinking about when earlier the the game that I couldn't remember was Willie Morgan and the Curse of Bonetown. These fucking titles. I'm also thinking of the adventure of the Black Hawk, the adventures of the Black Hawk from ah earlier this year, ah where there are games that are really trying to get ah The Legend of Sky is maybe another one, right? With the games that are clearly inspired by LucasArts, but it's like they remembered LucasArts being clever and witty, but didn't remember how breezy that dialogue is, how much you just sort of fly through it, and how much it is not the writers making jokes, it is the characters making jokes.
00:54:14
Speaker
which is a very important distinction. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Right. And for what it's worth with you saying that, I do think in Dagger that it is the characters talking. Right. It just feels like compounding. I'm just like, I can't. This is so much information. And, you know, the voice acting in Dagger is something to be desired. It's pretty bad.
00:54:39
Speaker
I don't think I can listen to the countess more than two minutes before I'm just like, Oh my God, her voice is driving me insane. I was skipping dial. I skipped probably every line of dialogue in that game after I like once I i read it, I would click because I didn't want to sit there and listen to it.
00:54:59
Speaker
Oh, she's horrible. So these this voice the voice act. I mean, know yeah, all of the voice acting. Yeah, like all of it with maybe exception of Laura Bow herself and the narrator. I actually thought the narrator was quite good.
00:55:12
Speaker
um So, and yeah, so I was thinking, I was thinking about another game, whether I liked it or not, or if I ever skipped and it was King's quest five. And so let's, let's put five and six together a little bit. Did you ever feel compelled to skip in that game?
00:55:30
Speaker
in five 100% of the time. i I hated the writing in five. I hated the artistic style and everything about five I dislike. Okay, fair. I love that game. But as I play through five, I almost feel like i almost feel like it is a it is designed to give me a headache.
00:55:53
Speaker
um between the voice acting, the set, everything about it just does not, just rubs me the wrong way. And I don't know that I could accurately explain why the art does that to me, because it's not that different from other Sierra art. It's not, it's very much in line with Gabriel Knight. I have a feeling somebody's gonna write in with some really technical answer and be like, well, actually, King's Quest V is the only game that used this level of sharpness or whatever. um or they expanded the palette and then like something like that. But like, I don't know what it is, but that game, I'm like pulling up screenshots now and there's just something about it that when even compared to Gabriel Knight, even compared to King's Quest 6. Yeah. Just, I don't, yeah. Okay, I did have a point. I did have a point there. Okay, but anyway, so.
00:56:50
Speaker
ah Yeah, i got I got lost in that, but King's Quest V constantly. King's Quest VI, yes, because I think King's Quest VI is a little long-winded. It is, yeah. But much... I skipped much less.
00:57:08
Speaker
I skipped very few times in those games and I wonder if it i if it's because of the inclusion of the narrator. I wonder if I if i somehow appreciate a narrator. I can't decide i can't decide because like we were just talking about in books, like sometimes we'll skip a random description, right? Because it's like, why is it giving me this? Especially if it's like,
00:57:31
Speaker
to fucking Ernest Hemingway or like the great girl or like F Scott Fitzgerald where he's describing every single fold you know in a in a curtain um you know I get a little eager to skip ahead that way but there's something I really liked about the narrators in uh five and six I don't quite know what it is I think it's because it was making me feel Like I was reading a fairy tale, which makes sense because the King's Quest games are based on are on fairy tale and fantasy and nursery rhyme. Yeah, I don't know. It just gave me this sense of I really am a third party moving along right this story. yeah And ah I don't know. But at the same time, there are narrators. We're all disabled. Like like in Gabriel Knight, I disabled the narrator because I can't stand wading through their narrations.
00:58:22
Speaker
and I just wait, I just read it myself, you know? right ah Yeah, that's that's interesting. ah We should also talk about the dialogue trees in the Gabriel Knight, because those, similar to LucasArts, extremely long winded. Very, very long winded. And, you know, Gabriel Knight,
00:58:44
Speaker
you need to skip through dialogue. There's a situation where it is it is well written, but it is yeah it's very long winded. A lot of information can be repetitive or just kind of technical in a way that is frustrating. Like, okay, if you compare Gabriel Knight to say Broken Sword, um which are games that I think we're trying to do kind of similar things um where it is a quote unquote normal person who sort of gets lost in a conspiracy with supernatural elements, right? yeah I think
00:59:25
Speaker
and sort of goes on an investigation, though, is not like a detective. I think that Broken Sword does it in a lot in a much better way, right? You feel like these are actual person answers yeah to these questions. yeah Where Gabriel Knight, you sort of feel like, oh, these are um game narrator. ah yeah are These are, ah ah what do you call it, expositional answers to these questions.
00:59:56
Speaker
and ah Another kind of like unfortunate thing about sins of the fathers is that like so many good actors voice acting poorly, right? So like Tim Curry plays Gabriel Knight and you'd think wow, this is gonna be great. And I don't get me wrong. I like Gabriel Knight because it is well written.
01:00:17
Speaker
But what is that voice acting? What is that? It's so bizarre. It's so bizarre because who who was the director that was like, okay, I need you to give that to me again, but like lean way harder into it. Yeah. I want you to say that. I want you to say that line again, but say it like, um say it like you are ah an extra in Roger Rabbit.
01:00:48
Speaker
Oh God. And he like who hires Tim Curry? Yeah, super English man extraordinaire to do your Louisiana you Southern accent. I'm sorry, man. I know he's an actor. He's a very good actor. I don't know if this was the right role. I i I blame the director, right? Because I don't know. I mean, who knows? Maybe they tried and tried and Tim Curry just could not give a convincing Louisiana accent. I would expect that of Tim Curry because he's not from Louisiana. ah But the some of those line deliveries like on everybody are so unnatural. Yeah.
01:01:33
Speaker
that it just feels as if, and I wonder if it has anything to do with these, the Sierra devs, we're so used to,
01:01:44
Speaker
the voices, the voice actors in their games being non actors, being people from just like around the studio and giving such bad line readings that they sort of like, like it sort of became a style in their minds.
Sierra's Development Approach
01:02:00
Speaker
And so the director was like, Oh, no, no, no, when we do video games, we do it bad. So can you do that again, but bad? And there was a little bit of a a style choice there with some of those Sierra games, like, yeah,
01:02:14
Speaker
They had to know a little bit what they were doing, right? With kind of this campy nature. You would have to. You have to. They heard everything the same as we did. There's no way they listened to that and thought, ah, this sounds great. This sounds natural. It's very natural. I don't know if it's because, you know,
01:02:34
Speaker
I found Fantasmagoria difficult too because things were so unnatural. The editing made it even worse. It was so spoken so unnaturally. The conversations made no sense. And I wonder if at that point devs were like, Oh, that's just the style style that we're going for here. That's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah. Did they just like think that Like, I don't know, did they think that's what people enjoyed? Did they think that that was a specific style? Did they think, or and or was was it like cynical in a way? Right. like right oh No, I think that too. Like these are oh these are video games. yeah We can't like, don't actually act. I was kind of thinking that too, like are, were they really just trying to differentiate the medium so much
01:03:25
Speaker
that maybe they felt it shouldn't be as natural ah as a movie or a book or something. You know, there were unlike LucasArts, right? Where a lot of the people, pretty much everyone that worked there seemed dedicated to game making and almost all LucasArts employees went on to continue making games. A lot of Sierra employees went on to either retire or go into other mediums or just become regular computer programmers in non-creative mediums. And so I wonder if there's a more if there's more cynicism to Sierra than we think. And, you know, when they look back on it, seeing the impact they made. Yeah. You know, they give interviews and they're like, oh, yeah, we really cared about this stuff. But at the time, if was that true or was it just
01:04:23
Speaker
did they think they were milking money out of kids and idiots, right? ah And so on some level, was it like, was it like, oh, you know, the way that in some, sometimes there's bad cartoon acting or sometimes like ah there's a rushed bad art in a bad comic book. And you get the sense that it's cynical, that it's like the the people,
01:04:49
Speaker
making it or directing it or, you know, whatever are just like, oh, just we just got to shit this out because kids will eat it up. Yeah. Make a fucking ton of money. And if we make more money, the more time we spend on it, the less money we make. Right. um And I wonder if there was an element of that. And this is going to be sacrilegious to some people hearing this. But I wonder if there's an element of that in Sierra. Right. Sinicism of cynicism. Right. Yeah. And if they did not have the passion for games at the time that they, that we give them the credit of having. Because again, even if it's like unconscious cynicism, you know? Right. yeah they're like Yeah. Even if they're like, oh, that's good enough. Yeah. And clearly there were people on these teams that were passionate about things because there's a lot of interesting stuff that was happening in Sierra. Of course, yeah. ah Some of my favorite games are Sierra games, the hands down.
01:05:48
Speaker
but there is a lot of choices that just would not make, that there's always been choices in every Sierra game that do not make sense from a creative standpoint. you have to You have to ask yourself, why would that choice have possibly been made? I agree, yeah. And again, when you look at it, a lot of those people ah were not lifelong video game developers. Yes. So, yeah,
Revisiting Old Games
01:06:24
Speaker
I agree. I definitely agree. um I forgot where I was going with this. Sorry, I suddenly brought up Gabriel Knight and this. ah you Yeah, you were just saying that the the voice acting was why would you why would you get these great actors?
01:06:41
Speaker
I don't know, I think i think at least in to Gabriel Knight's credit, I really do think they were trying to do something good with that one versus maybe Dagger that was more cheeky um and campy. And even certainly more than Phantasmagoria, which was, I mean, you can't make Phantasmagoria and not realize what you're making, which is a very corny B-movie, but I think to Gabriel Knight's credit,
01:07:06
Speaker
I really do think they were really trying ah to make something quite serious and it's it's a very well written game it's very good ah but like we said the dialogue is very long-winded and not only is it long-winded it keeps getting added to like the more you which like part of me kind of likes that because it's like and it's a new thing I discovered it's kind of like a puzzle I solved you know what I mean so like I'll go back to the detective that we're working with in that game and suddenly there's a new dialogue option and that makes me feel kind of good because that means I did something right I unlocked something but it also means oh god
01:07:45
Speaker
Look at this huge dialogue tree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I do want to say I do think that like there is ah there was a lot of passion and um serious artistry going on in Gabriel Knight. I'm just saying yeah it's possible that not everybody involved in these games was on the same page in terms of that. um But yeah, I I.
01:08:12
Speaker
That's it's interesting because it's the same thing. This is, I think, why I compared it to um broken sword is broken sword. You can ask everybody about every inventory object. Oh, God. ah And so there's and it's that same sort of thing where it's like it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Yeah, just overwhelming.
01:08:36
Speaker
Like there comes a point where there's so much dialogue and like so much inventory that I give up because I don't know if I've made a mistake. I mean, and that's more of an older, that's an old school adventure game problem. I don't, I don't feel that way in modern adventure games, but in some of those retro titles, I'm just like, did I, I don't know if I'm doing this right anymore. I'm sad and I'm giving up.
01:09:02
Speaker
Now, how would you feel about, so We're talking about all this these dialogue problems in adventure games. yeah There is a genre of adventure game that is entirely about reading, and that is the visual novel. yes yeah How do you feel about visual novels?
01:09:26
Speaker
I don't know. I do like them. They're not my go-to. They're not my favorite. I don't i don't seek them out unless i'm I'm getting a lot of suggestions or people might think it's up my alley. It's it's actually the same way I feel about books, I think.
01:09:43
Speaker
Right. If it's not the right genre, I might, I might not pick it up. I try not to judge, but we all have our preferences and our tastes, right? It would be ridiculous to try and just read everything everybody suggested to you. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like my time is precious and I need to spend it wisely because death comes for us all. You know what I'm saying? Not me. Not Matt, though. Not me, actually. Yeah, it's a weird thing that I. Yeah.
01:10:09
Speaker
My doctor confirmed, I had a doctor's appointment earlier this week and they were like, oh, you're still not gonna die ever. And I was like, oh. Well, can I see your chart? Yeah, all it says on it is never gonna die. It's never gonna die. So it's very, sad very strong. ah The healthiest man I've ever seen. Never gonna die is what they think. There wasn't categories for that. So they just like had to cross out all the other stuff.
01:10:38
Speaker
So like when I die, what are you going to do with the podcast? Am I going to like come back as a ghost and just keep trucking? Well, by then, AI technology, you'll have gone. All right, moving on.
01:10:53
Speaker
um Yeah, so I think there are definitely um ah like the two visual novels I've spent the most time with are the Danganronpa games.
01:11:07
Speaker
and Yeah, those are very popular. And the Ace Attorney games. Yeah. Which, yeah, both very, very, very popular. Very, both very well written. Yeah. um And the Danganronpa games particularly are incredibly, like, exciting and it's suspenseful. um And the ah i Ace Attorney games are very funny. You're right. um I think I find myself clicking through the Ace Attorney games more often. Is that because there is a mystery solving element to it? And I'm just excited to get to the mystery solving. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, because the star of the show in an Ace Attorney game is the trial. Yeah. Yeah. And so anytime you're just like doing interviews and going around and investigating,
01:12:05
Speaker
it's not interesting enough to feel like, for you to feel like, ah, ah for you to not feel like I just wanna get to the trial. The trials are so good. yeah um But Ace Attorney's written in such a way, and so well so is Danganronpa, but in that sort of anime-ish way. um Ace Attorney's written in that way that like the very character-driven Nile So I don't know. I don't know what the deal is there. Maybe in ah visual novels, there's just like there can be a case of just like, yeah no matter how good it is.
01:12:42
Speaker
I also feel like visual novels are certainly um my least played. So I that I definitely I'm not against them. Obviously, I'm i'm not. um I don't want to gatekeep any kind of adventure game, but I'm against them. I mean i i and will hide them. I will protest outside of any developer making a. This shouldn't happen.
01:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, just me and my little sign. Yeah, it is my least played. And I think it's definitely ah maybe because a lot of visual novels are on that more anime side. And that's not that's never really been my interest. It's never been a genre interest for me. ah That being being said, I did play had a full boyfriend with the pigeons and loved it. You know, I am also not an anime person at all. Yeah.
01:13:37
Speaker
So it's weird that I love the dank and romping games so much. Yeah, I was going to say that's it's really interesting that you that you like them. I also really liked this going to sound very naughty of me. A honey pop actually really loved honey pop as a dating sim. I do not know honey pop. Well.
01:13:57
Speaker
Let's just pretend I didn't say anything. Anyway, that being said, that all being said, I think that we hit on this topic very well. Yeah, there's no there's no definitive solution here. It's dialogue is tough and it's tough in books. It's tough in movies. It's tough in video games. And I think that video game dialogue presents its own very specific challenges. that Yeah, it does. Yeah.
01:14:28
Speaker
But yeah I feel inspired though. I feel inspired to like... Oh, you don't say. I'm an artist. Did you know I'm from Chicago?
01:14:42
Speaker
This is who I am. I feel inspired to go back and replay some of these games to see if I feel differently. about ah Actually, I've never beaten Broken Sword. I got really far, and it got tough. So I actually want to go back and try to beat it.
01:15:00
Speaker
I don't think Broken Sword is without its problems, yeah but I think Broken Sword is one of the best written adventure games ever. I've gone back to it um many times, and the very last time i'd gone back to I went back to it, I was struck by just how um efficient and charming and um
01:15:26
Speaker
character based each each line of dialogue is so okay i will i will take that to heart and i will give it another shot but that being said speaking of Yeah, that being said, speaking of games we may or may not like, I think it's time to wrap up with our rating every adventure game ever. I'm ready for these titles. Come on, throw that at me. Love the segment. Again, if anyone... Wait, we should throw up with Swanky Max Amino. Oh, yeah. I didn't come back and do it. But again, if anybody wants to make us a short theme song for this segment that we don't even have a name for. Yeah. Please do, because it really, it deserves one at this point. It deserves one, yeah. You know what I'm gonna do, you know what I'm gonna do now that we have this segment? I think I'm gonna make a change, an executive change. Oh no. Right here. I think before we get into rating, I'm gonna, Sarah, goodbyes, give out a little bit of information. We'll put on swanky maxes, and then we can just have a natural transition out.
01:16:35
Speaker
Oh, okay, so you want our goodbye. To be right now. So from now on, we're gonna do our goodbyes before we do our rating segment. Yes, because I like the ratings and I don't, let's just give it a try. Okay, let's give it a try. If dad can introduce two new surprise segments, I can make executive decisions. I'm the editor. We are both the executives here. We can do whatever the fuck we want. We do what we want.
01:17:01
Speaker
yeah
01:17:04
Speaker
yes but But before we get into our ratings, I just want to shout out Adventure Game Hotspot. They are the network that we are a part of. If you go to their website, you can read some of Matt's reviews. He's an excellent writer, excellent reviewer, knows what he's talking about. ah So go check them out.
01:17:21
Speaker
there's an awesome review of The Crimson Diamond on that on the website. Very good. And, you know, we we don't do this very often, but let's shout out just like some of the members of this community real quick. Yeah, let's do it. So ah there's one short eye, ah which we've talked about on the show a little bit before. Yes, yes. He does sort of a documentary style,
01:17:48
Speaker
ah YouTube videos about speed running adventure games and they are incredibly funny. They're really good. He did what he did a video on sanitarium. And if you like me and you like sanitarium, go watch it. Yeah. Very interesting. um There is ah the classic gamers guild. Mm hmm.
01:18:09
Speaker
who have both a podcast and ah the one member, Paul, of the Classic Gamers Guild is working on a video game called The Phantom Fellows. Yes. So the Classic Gamers Guild podcast, it it's ah Paul and Anna, and Anna's the one I did a panel with. Yes. um ah The Adventure Game Fanfare, it's a very charming and ah enthus in very enthusiastic podcast.
01:18:37
Speaker
um There is Adventure Game Geek. He makes very funny videos, very geeky, but very funny videos. About various classic adventure games. um I actually really dig I really dig his stuff. And then, why don't we shout out one more, and that's Space Quest Historian, who is the world leading expert on Space Quest, and a YouTuber. I wonder if I'm an expert on anything. ah are Yeah, are we experts on anything? are You're an expert on murder, she wrote. Oh, yeah, but that's not a video game.
01:19:31
Speaker
I want to be an expert on something. ah Yeah, it's hard to say. No, fine, I'll take more than she wrote, it's fine. No, it's fine. No, it's fine. So there's some, yeah, so, you know, again, we don't shout them out very often, but while we're, while we have some time, we might as well. Yeah, that's fair. Maybe we'll shout out a couple more people on next episode as well. Yeah, yeah, we'll do that.
01:19:58
Speaker
every now and then, just to remind people that there's other cool stuff out there if they like adventure games that they could be checking out. As always, email us at mattandrosesatgmail.com. Questions? Suggestions? ah ah Theme song ideas for this upcoming segment? ah the Praise? Definitely. I will take that. Mattandrosesatgmail.com. Personal compliments? Mattandrosesatgmail.com.
01:20:22
Speaker
All right, now we're done. This is something we wanna talk about very often, but we have sort of, ah and but this might be our ceiling, right? Because ah the Adventure Game Fan community is pretty limited, but I do think this podcast can appeal to people beyond the Adventure Game Fan community. We have sort of hit a wall in terms of downloads, which is fine. We are happy with you guys as a fan base, but if you could share this show to other people you think might enjoy it. absolutely Talk about it on social media. If you could review it, that would be, um those things are such a massive help um and might help us get over this like, this wall we seem to have hit in the past several months.
01:21:07
Speaker
Listen, every day I am shocked that anyone wants to listen to me for more than five minutes. ah yeah i wear What's wrong with you guys? Don't get us wrong. We are incredibly grateful that you guys listen and we love all of you. But yeah, if you want to help us reach more people, ah share. All right. Let's get into our final insane segment. No swanks. We got to do swings. Okay. Let's do swanky. Yeah.
01:21:50
Speaker
All right, we're back and we are going to rate every adventure game ever. We've rated 11 so far. We've rated 11 so far. We're going to rate another ah five adventure games right now. Around five is how what I think what we'll do every episode. We might go a little under, a little over.
01:22:12
Speaker
if we feel like it, but all right. So what I have here is a list of every adventure game ever. I have, it's ah reduced by certain metrics. So we have 3,275, we have ranked 11. So I'm going to use a random number generator. Again, we stole this segment specifically from another podcast. So if this is familiar to you, shh. It's because we're thieves.
01:22:37
Speaker
But all right, so I'm going to use a random number j generator and we're going to pull up that exact number. So on the list and rank it, even if we've never played it. So our first one is number six. Wow. Number six. This is a game from 1981. Oh, boy. Phoenix software. It is called Adventure in Time.
01:23:00
Speaker
Have you ever played this game? It feels so honestly, it sounds familiar. Let me just look it up real quick here. so i thought i cut out all the text adventures, but this is a text adventure. It is a text adventure. You know what? I got a soft spot for okay text. I really do. Now granted, I can't judge this too hard because I'm only really looking at a screenshot of some text. Yeah, just have some text. This one's going to be really, this is about the hardest one. i
01:23:35
Speaker
ah Should we pass on this one? I think and should I remove it from that? Because i that's why I removed the text adventures anyway, yeah because if we haven't played them, there's nothing for us to go off. Yeah, no, that's hard. That's fair. All right. So we're going to skip that one. All right. Let's move to 1031, which is oh, my God. Did you rig this? No, I didn't rig anything. There is absolutely no way this is just what is it? 1031.
01:24:03
Speaker
2009 video game from legacy games. Yeah, it's a little game called murder
01:24:11
Speaker
Number one, put it number one. It cannot be. Number one. Okay, have you played the Murder, She Wrote video game? Yes, I have. Okay, what is it? You have to explain it to me a little bit. They're hidden object games, Matt. No!
01:24:30
Speaker
Okay, and so this this one, what is the Murder, She Wrote, the first one? what like Do you remember what happens in it? I remember the format. No, I don't remember what happens. Are you kidding? I remember how it was done. I remember what it looks like. I remember like it's very hidden object-y. Well, honestly, the caricatures are kind of bad, to be honest. Everyone looks kind of not great. I'm looking at pictures now, and yeah, they do not look good. I actually also thought I removed all the hidden object games from this list, but i think this i'm I'm glad this one stayed on.
01:25:07
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's it honestly, it's not a bad game. It's not. It's youre it's a very classic hidden object game with a Murder She Wrote spin. And i I think maybe what's most important is that Murder She Wrote fans will like it. So I i don't think this one's going above scratches. No, it's not going above scratches. In fact, and then,
01:25:33
Speaker
ah I could see a comparison to a hidden object game and these Carol Reed games. So I could see it going near Amos Green's final repose. But we looked at the screenshots to Legend of Hand. Yeah. And we thought that game looked incredible. So I'm sort of thinking it's going around to number five. I am OK with that. OK. I'm OK with that. All right. So Murder She Wrote. That's so funny. I cannot believe that game.
01:26:02
Speaker
Okay, all right, Murder, She Wrote goes at in at number five ah by Legacy Games 2009. All right, what is our next number? It is 1349.
01:26:17
Speaker
hi Wow, this one rules. Okay, ah this is a good, this is gonna be a good round. It's Papers, Please by Lucas Pope. Papers, Please. Okay, um'm so so what's at our number one right now?
01:26:30
Speaker
Fran Bow is at our number one, and I'm not sure that Papers, Please beats for, I think Papers, Please is a more interesting experience than Fran Bow, but I think if we're talking about best adventure games, yeah I don't think Papers, Please is a better adventure game than Fran Bow.
01:26:50
Speaker
uh yeah if we're talking it is an adventure game it is a little less classic than frambo if we're using that criteria i would put it directly below frambo though me too yeah because i i and i i also would say that i don't think that it is a better adventure game, if we're using that as our criteria, than Scratches, but it is definitely a much better experience than Scratches. Yes, agree which agreed. Agreed. Just because it is so good. It is such a good game. ah Listeners, if you've never played Papers, Please, give it a try. It is very, it's ah enjoyable. i say It's enjoyable and stressful. yeah Yeah, but it's a very immersive experience. I yes recommend it.
01:27:35
Speaker
okay all right our next number our next thing 22 15 oh wow okay okay okay all right we have roger she wrote two no we have dark grim mariupolis
01:27:59
Speaker
I'm sorry, what now? Dark, grim, mariupolis. Oh, sorry. Did you, I, you must, I must've cut out because you definitely heard what I said. It's dark, grim, mariupolis. Yeah, dark.
01:28:14
Speaker
Okay. It's title aside, this actually looks kind of cute. Dark, grim, mariupolis. It's only 70 cents on Steam. It kind of looks cute.
01:28:28
Speaker
It's a one-bit game. It's a one-bit game. ah but I don't know if there's 3D in it, but it looks one bit because it only has two colors. It looks really cool. It's got very positive reviews. Not um not many reviews, but a lot of positive reviews. I don't know. It looks a little charming. It looks a little noir. It looks a little, but I can't tell what you're actually doing in it. No, I can't either.
01:28:54
Speaker
Um, there's a, there's a lot of walking left and right. And there is a, there's something in the trailer where you are, you are like, it seems like you're typing in a document.
01:29:07
Speaker
Okay, well, one of the one of the reviews says it is a good point and click adventure branch of its own interesting theme and dialogue. Mm hmm. Talking about the puzzles. Dark grim mariupolis on Metacritic. It has two reviews, one from the Xbox hub and one from Xbox alive. And they are both very bad, but it it seems like their problems with it are just that it it looks old. So that's not going to deter me and you. and No, ah it honestly, it looks more like an artistic experience, which I'm totally fine with, but it's definitely going to go a little bit lower.
01:29:55
Speaker
um Yeah, I think this is gonna go. I think this is, I'm looking somewhere, I'm looking like um above Alayna, I'm thinking, I'm thinking above Crabbat and the Sorbian King and Alayna displaced reality because it looks like it's doing something interesting. And agree that those were, that's sort of our, I think Crabbat and Alayna is sort of our wall of ah mediocrity. Yeah. Right. That is that is the point where ah games that are just fine go. And so I think games that might be bad but are interesting go slightly above it. And games that are bad. Mm hmm. Just bad. Go below it. Yeah. I agree with that. I think Krabat and Elena are. our Yeah, that's our wall. OK. That's our point of reference.
01:30:53
Speaker
Okay, next up, 481. Dropping all the way down. this We're all over the map, this one. Yeah. Okay, we came super close to a very good game, but instead we have Byzantine the Betrayal by Discovery Channel miss Multimedia.
01:31:14
Speaker
Honestly, I know what this is. hang out Oh my god, really? I gotta make sure, I gotta make sure. So Byzantine the Betrayal. is an FMV game. Oh yeah, this thing. Ugh, honestly. I do know what this is. 360 degree photorealistic and live acted FMV. Yeah.
01:31:38
Speaker
um it is ah
Discovery Channel Multimedia Games
01:31:45
Speaker
Okay, what else did Discovery Multimedia? I mean, this is the Discovery Channel, essentially, which is odd, right? I mean, we're talking about a time where everybody and their brother was making a game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard for me to place this. um Yeah, here's some of the other games made by Discovery Channel Multimedia Pirates Captain's Quest. um We have Big Job.
01:32:15
Speaker
which, oh, it's like a children's, he oh, learn about having a job. We have Carrier Fortress at Sea, ah Nile Passage to Egypt, which ni ah which looks very much in the vein of this Byzantine game. You know what, though? looking I'm i'm like kind of remembering this. I found this on Home of the Underdogs back in the day. Right.
01:32:39
Speaker
and it did intrigue me. And all of the comments are saying, I loved this game. This isn't a great game. I wish it was re-released. It might be kind of like one of those great hidden gems like the Black Dahlia, which has to be perfect. Maybe we should play this.
01:32:54
Speaker
It might be tough because it is going to be like a Windows 95. Yeah, this is going to be one of those games where half the game is trying to figure out how to play how to do it. Yeah, it's what like I said, it's like the Black Dolly. It's a great game. ah Impossible to play, even okay even went on original hardware. So I want to put this above Amos Green because it goes that high. It it it goes way beyond Amos Green in terms of quality and story and detail.
01:33:23
Speaker
Okay, but it is a Discovery Channel game.
01:33:29
Speaker
ok i I would argue, and and i'm I'm open to putting it above Amos Green, but I'd argue it could go right below Amos Green because we played a Carol Reed game. We both played some Carol Reed in between episodes. i' We didn't talk about it last episode, but no we played some Carol Reed and both really, really enjoyed them.
01:33:50
Speaker
and maybe we would really enjoy this? I think I would. I think I'd be super into this. But I think there is an ah an interesting design philosophy around the Carol Reed games and clearly a passion in the Carol Reed games where something about a discovery channel multimedia game released in 1997 feels a little cash grabby to me.
01:34:22
Speaker
So I would I think it I also think it probably looks good, but I would say it goes right below a screen. All right. If you still argue for it to be above, I will be happy to put it. Listen, listen, listen. OK, OK. Can we put it can we put it next to and decide at a later time? Oh, my God. I really think this is going to be a good game. I really do. OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to put it. I'll put it.
01:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, okay, we'll have two number fives. Okay. Sorry, two number fours and then no number five.
Telltale Games' Licensing Challenges
01:35:00
Speaker
Yay. Okay. All right. I guess this one's, so this is our last game yet. 1684. You know, yeah so Byzantine the betrayal was right next to broken sword two broken. Oh, nuts. 1648. Oh, sorry. 1684. Okay.
01:35:23
Speaker
uh oh that's not a good ah good reaction at all it's minecraft story mode during telltale games height right uh there was and you know this but they were just gobbling up uh any licenses they could and trying to make game like a point and click choose your own adventure games based on them. Yeah. So they did The Walking Dead. They did Fables, the comic book series. They did Tales. ah They did like a Borderlands called Tales. Jurassic Park. Game of Thrones. They bought Jurassic Park. They did ah Back to the Future yeah Guardians of the Galaxy. They just and ah and all of the basically every LucasArts property they could still purchase. Yeah. um
01:36:21
Speaker
And what was Minecraft? I'm going to put this kind of low you guys. Yeah, I think so. I think this is and talk about a cash grab. Yeah, this is a cash grab. but um um This is at the height of Minecraft.
01:36:38
Speaker
at Minecraft's popularity, this is, and this is the sort of shit that got telltale bankrupted, right? yeah um So i I'm gonna say it's above Blue Force. Yes, so many things are. I think it's i think it's above i think it's above Blue Force, because I can't put this below a Jim Wals game, but I would say it's below I think it's below our mediocre wall because I'm sure this game is better than mediocre. But I also again, it's a cash grab and it is, you know,
Top Adventure Games and Future Topics
01:37:21
Speaker
The death of Telltale almost killed adventure games again, right? like like And it was because of this, it was because of these licensed fucking property things that they were just trying to like rake in as much money as possible and they got themselves in too deep and they stopped paying attention to quality ah and their own ability to make games. yeah So- No, i'm I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with said you. So do you agree with that below?
01:37:45
Speaker
mediocrity wall. Yes. Okay. So our list right now as we exit is Fran Bow, number one, best adventure game of all time. Number two, ah ah papers please. Number three, scratches. Number four and number four, and number four Amos Green's final reposed the Cara Reed game and Byzantine the Betrayal by Discovery Channel. You know, that is not the top five adventure games of all time, clearly.
01:38:12
Speaker
But those are five games I would play. Like, we've gotten to five, like a top five for that I'd be like, if somebody was like, you have to play all five of these games. Yeah. Right now, I'd be like, OK, cool. Yeah, for sure. All right. ah Next murder, she wrote Legend of the Hand. Hell of a cyberpunk thriller. Dark grim, mariopolis, mariupolis.
01:38:33
Speaker
Kerbat and the Secret of the Sword being King, Elena, Displaced Reality, Minecraft, Story Mode, Blue Force, The Fan, Wild Wild West, The Steel Assassin, and Weird Truth is Stranger Than Fiction is the worst adventure game of all time. So ah thank you guys, everybody, for listening. And we will see you in next week. In the meantime, is there anything you want to go out on? No. Me neither.
01:39:00
Speaker
How could she start over and