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Be a Man About IT – a conversation with author George Bell
19 Plays12 days ago
Building a healthier idea of masculinity
George Bell is a marketing consultant who at the age of twenty found himself confused about what life as a man should be like and seriously considering ending his own life.
Rescued from that situation by some plain talking from two women who cared about him, George started the process of recovery and defining, for himself, what being a man would mean to him.
Now ten years one he has recorded his experience in the book Be A Man About It
In this episode of the Abeceder health and wellbeing podcast Fit For My Age George Bell describes that journey to host Michael Millward.
They discuss
- Why men don’t talk about the challenges of being a man
- The size of the men’s mental health challenge
- How language defines masculinity
- Societal expectations of men
- When boys start to be told how to be a man
- Media influences on masculinity
- The role of women in defining masculinity
- How men can start conversations about their mental health and masculinity
- What the future of masculinity looks like
Buy Be A Man About It at Amazonor Bookshop.org
Find out more about George Bell and Michael at Abeceder.co.uk.
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Transcript
Introduction to Zencastr and Podcast Highlights
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Because Zencastr makes every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy. All the details are in the description.
Introduction to 'Fit for My Age' Podcast
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Fit for My Age, the health and wellbeing podcast from Abbasida. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida.
Discussion on Positive Masculinity with George Bell
00:00:29
Speaker
Today, George Bell is going to be a man about it as we discuss what positive masculinity looks and feels like. George is the author of a book called Be A Man About It, which athlete Dwayne Chambers described as a guide for men and those that care about them.
00:00:48
Speaker
George is based in southeast London, one of the places that I have not visited and very rarely go south of the river. If I get the opportunity to visit, I will make use of my membership of the Ultimate Travel Club to make all of my travel arrangements.
00:01:03
Speaker
That is because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I can travel at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and so many more travel related purchases.
00:01:13
Speaker
I'd like you to be able to travel at those same trade prices. So I have put a link in the description with a built-in discount on membership of the Ultimate Travel Club. So we'll all be traveling at trade prices.
Encouraging Thoughtful Listening in 'Fit for My Age'
00:01:26
Speaker
Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of Fit For My Age that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. And also probably worth telling your friends, family and work colleagues about as well.
00:01:42
Speaker
Very importantly, on Fit For My Age, we do not tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
George Bell's Motivations and Personal Experiences
00:01:50
Speaker
Hello, George. Michael, great to be here. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
00:01:54
Speaker
I'm really looking forward to this to this conversation and fighting yeah me too about masculinity. But why write a book about masculinity? What is it that you do for a job that leads you to writing a book about masculinity? Yeah, that's that's always the big question, really. Everyone asks, you know, why why the book? and you know i've got, I've got very professional interest in this subject area. I've been working in the mental health space for, for almost 10 years now. you know, professionally there's that real interest there, but it started from a very, very personal reason, very, very personal interest, which was just over 10 years ago, I was really struggling with my mental health.
00:02:34
Speaker
I'd got myself into, i think just what I describe as like a hole, really, really deep hole where i you know, I couldn't see a way out or almost this, you know this tunnel, people talk about light at the end of the tunnel, and I couldn't see that. just It just felt, you know, I was i was in a real, you know dark, dark place and I neglected it. I didn't do anything about it.
00:02:54
Speaker
And that eventually, you know, it snowballed and it it got me to a place where I was making plans to take my own life. So at the age of 20, that was my experience, which, you know, looking back now, it's just,
00:03:10
Speaker
way too young to be holding something as heavy as that. And I think what made it so much worse is that I was holding it on my own because being a man, i believed that I couldn't talk about this stuff. you know'd i'd I'd almost been falsely tricked into believing this this lie that so many men are a taught that you know we don't open up about this stuff. We don't talk about it. We don't acknowledge
Challenging Masculinity Norms and Mental Health
00:03:35
Speaker
it. We don't acknowledge that we have emotions. We don't acknowledge that we have difficult emotions.
00:03:39
Speaker
And you just you just never, you know, you'd never talk about it. And so I just kept it quiet. I kept it quiet from everyone. You know, had an amazing network of people around me that would have been willing to help, you know, in a moment's notice, but I didn't give anyone a chance to do that.
00:03:54
Speaker
You know, obviously, you know, think things got better. i'm I'm still here today, but it almost went a very, very different way for me. Almost, but fortunately not. Exactly. And you know, there there was obviously a lot a lot in that, you know, get to getting me to that point.
00:04:13
Speaker
But when I got through that, I wanted to come and work in the mental health space. But I've always had an interest in men's mental health and masculinity, knowing my own experience and knowing that I was almost dealing with two challenges at the same time. I was dealing with the mental health issues, but then I was also dealing with this faulty sense of masculinity that had tricked me into believing I couldn't talk about it. And that almost cost me my life. So yeah, that was my story, but I know this, it's not necessarily a unique story. I know that hundreds of thousands of men are still facing this every single day.
00:04:46
Speaker
so that's, that's the professional interest in that, in the book as well. You know, I didn't, I didn't just write this book for the sake of it. I wrote it because I believe it's really needed. And I think we can see that in, in the stats around the world.
00:04:59
Speaker
I totally agree with you. And I have to tell you, i love the title. Thanks. Yeah. The title is one of those expressions that is used to you know be a man about it.
00:05:10
Speaker
To have someone say to that, say that to you, means automatically that you are somehow less of. Yeah. You are not fulfilling some sort of standard of being a man, whatever that is.
00:05:25
Speaker
And yet, it seems like what is it that you're supposed to be is the question that we can't really answer. It's just that like with Most things are supposed to be. We know what we're not supposed to be.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah. and and
Societal Pressures and Impact on Masculinity
00:05:37
Speaker
And we've made it a very narrow version of masculinity. you know that that When we tell men to be a man about it or man up, there's a very, very narrow set of traits that we're referring to there, which is generally be silent, be strong, be independent and get on with it. And that's kind of it.
00:05:58
Speaker
But humans are way, way more complex than that. And they're way, way more complex than we've we've made masculinity into. It's it's not these this tiny, narrow set of of traits. So think you're so right that these these phrases, it it essentially shames men into thinking that they need to be a certain way. And that certain way is is very, very limited and very, very narrow.
00:06:22
Speaker
And because humans aren't built like that, I think we're seeing the the pressure that men are facing and the and the consequences of what happens when men are going through things and they're not fitting into this box that they've been told they have to fit into. Because we all face stuff in life, right? You know, no matter how strong you think you are, you're going to go through grief, loss, potential, you know, financial issues, or all all kinds of stuff.
00:06:44
Speaker
And humans ah were built to respond to that in in a certain way with with emotion. But because men have been told they can't show that, It's the the way i describe it in the book, it's almost like a pressure cooker. This pressure is just building and building and building men constantly trying to be strong and tough on the outside.
00:07:00
Speaker
All the while this pressure is building on the inside at some point when. Pressure reachs certain reaches a certain level, it has to go somewhere, right? It it it can't sustain itself forever. And if you don't do anything about it, if you don't release that in a healthy way, then often the thing containing the pressure goes pop or it goes crack.
00:07:17
Speaker
And I think that is, we're seeing the result of that in, in, in men and some of the devastating statistics. Yeah. You've just described almost what happened to you 10 years ago when you were 20.
00:07:28
Speaker
Pressure cracks. And one of the ways in which to release that is to go down a negative route. Yeah. But you went down a positive route instead. Yep. I'm intrigued. And I know it's extremely personal, but you've written a book about it. So I'm going to ask.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah. What's the select the process that you can remember of making that change? There is this one option, which is extremely negative. There is this other option, which is extremely positive, but must have seemed almost impossible to achieve.
00:07:59
Speaker
What's the sort of process that you go through to go down that positive route? Yeah, it started for me with... My girlfriend at the time called me out on some abnormal behavior.
00:08:15
Speaker
So she said she said to me, you're you're really cold and and distant and withdrawn. that was a That was kind of like a bit of cold water being thrown in my face because up until that point, I believed that I was wearing the mask really well. I believed that when I was around people, I was doing what I believed I had to do as a man, you know, smile, be confident, have fun, all the rest of it. And then when I was on my own, i could then almost retreat into my depression and my mental health issues. But i think her saying that was clear that actually these two worlds weren't separate and it was starting to impact other people.
00:08:50
Speaker
I just sort of opened up in that moment. It wasn't very articulate. I didn't really know what I was saying. I couldn't really explain it. I think I just said something like, I feel weird. that That was pretty much the extent of it, but it didn't matter because finally I had voiced it. I had, it was out of my head and it was out into the open.
00:09:08
Speaker
She was really good about it. She got my mum involved, told my mum. My mum got me down to doctors. I was sort of then going through this process of, you know, i'd I'd built up all these walls and barriers, believing that I could never talk about this stuff because that's what men should do.
00:09:23
Speaker
And then actually, as more people found out, the world didn't collapse in on itself. People didn't run away. People were there to help me. It started to give me a bit of confidence. It started to break down some of these barriers I'd i'd built.
00:09:37
Speaker
And I think that was such a fundamental part for me choosing a different path and getting better was actually at the same time kind of deconstructing these faulty beliefs I had around masculinity.
00:09:47
Speaker
I was almost testing the world around me. I'd almost been taught to never talk about this stuff. And if we do, we're not a real man. But then actually the the evidence I was getting back showed that wasn't true. It showed that when I did talk about it to people around me, they cared and they wanted to help me and the world didn't end and things didn't go wrong.
00:10:07
Speaker
And so that gave me the confidence to then tell friends and I opened up a little bit more and then I got more people involved and then I decided to go to therapy. And so I kept sort of dipping my toe into the water with it and I kept getting really positive signals back.
00:10:19
Speaker
So i kind of went through that, that process for for a year. I was working on the mental health issues, but I was also really, I was reconstructing what masculinity looked like to me.
00:10:30
Speaker
It wasn't easy. I'm not going to say happened overnight cause it doesn't, you know, I was, I was, I was 20 years old at this point, so I was i was dealing with you know two two decades of beliefs i I have. Some people don't tackle this stuff until you know much later. Some people are dealing with with decades and decades of of kind of learned beliefs and behaviors. So it's it's not an overnight fix, but it's one of those things that can change and does change. It just it just takes a bit of time, right?
00:10:55
Speaker
It does. But when you say two decades of
Influence of Early Role Models and Norm Reinforcement
00:10:58
Speaker
beliefs because you were 20 years old, At what sort of point, is it really two decades? Because I'm thinking like, you at what type of age do boys start to be imprinted with this expectation of how a boy behaves, how a man behaves?
00:11:17
Speaker
When does it start? I mean, really, you know, it, it starts immediately. And I think, you know how, how much are you kind of absorbing around, you know concept of masculinity when when you're a month old or a year old. maybe Maybe not, you know, loads and loads of lessons. But I think the the trouble is we almost don't know. you know, we we know that babies and kids are really, really impressionable and they're soaking up the world around them.
00:11:43
Speaker
And they're not, you know they're not always doing it through a lens of of emotional intelligence and awareness because, you know, they're so young that you know, this the whole world's new to them. so things that that we you and I could see now and rationally know that it's not, an it you know, it doesn't affect us or it's not a reflection on us.
00:12:03
Speaker
As a kid, a small action or a small thing you see on the street can almost inform your whole worldview in a way that you don't fully understand. So I think we pick up we pick up a lot and, you know, we we pick it up in different ways. Like I had i had a really good childhood, two loving parents. It wasn't like they were ever, really, really tough on me. They, you know, they, they weren't, they weren't telling me on a daily basis to man up, to be tougher.
00:12:29
Speaker
But then at the same time, you know, I was playing with action man figures who are, who are built a certain, you know, they've got a certain muscularity to them. And we were watching James Bond reruns on, on the, you know, on films and TV all the time. And, you know, James Bond is this impossible, impossibly masculine man, but that was kind of the role model at the time. And then on the way home from school,
00:12:51
Speaker
I'd see Calvin Klein adverts on billboards and Calvin Klein models, yeah they they they look a certain way. So I think you're just constantly absorbing this notion of what it means to be a man in off comments, in TV, in the things you see. it's not It's not always really explicit. It's not like I go back and I say, there was this one moment that someone said something to me and that forever changed me. It's just this kind of constant absorption.
00:13:16
Speaker
When I was preparing to have this conversation with you, I was thinking about those role models of masculinity that we're taking from a very young age.
00:13:27
Speaker
And the things that came to mind m were exactly the ones that you mentioned. Like the James Bond was like the tall, dark, suave, you know, in a suit, women fall at his feet, the physical role models of like the athletes, the underwear models who've probably starved themselves into a, into a situation so they can have their photograph taken in a particular way, in a particular light, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's acting.
00:13:57
Speaker
It's all fulfilling some sort of role. Because I'm older than you, I was also thinking about those you got Hollywood golden era male role models of John Wayne, this is how a man is type of thing. It's all, yeah like you say, the strong, silent type.
00:14:14
Speaker
you never actually understand what that person is feeling at any particular point in time or what's going on for them it's all almost about what they do for other people but it's also that for you to go down that positive route required someone around you who cared for you to actually say you know what's going on this is not something that any man really is ever going to be able to challenge a change by themselves.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah. And the important thing for me as well that is is that it was, it was a woman or, you know, two, two women initially who who got involved. And I think this conversation, the conversation around masculinity can, it can get quite divisive quite, quite quickly, and you know, quite, quite political and,
00:15:02
Speaker
You know, I understand why I understand where it comes from. There's a lot of emotion, a lot of passion, a lot of sensitivity around this subject. But I think for me, i I just try to strip as much of that away as possible and and just come at it from the place of being a human. And, you know, knowing the the kind of pain that I was in, knowing that a lot of other men are in that pain and also knowing that two women saved my life, basically. Okay. Because you say two women saved your life and that's brilliant, fantastic.
00:15:28
Speaker
But what role do women play in reinforcing these negative masculine role models? What's the sort of role that women play in that?
00:15:39
Speaker
I think that the perception can can get reinforced from from both sides. You know, men men are telling each other they have to be strong and there's the perception that's what maybe what women are looking for when they're dating, for example, or parents might say off-the-cuff mark, you know, mother might say off-the-cuff mark to their their child, their child may be fallen over, their son's fallen over, cut his knee. And, you know, maybe she says, oh, you know man up, it's all right. You just man up about it. You're a big boy now.
00:16:11
Speaker
You're a big boy. And it's, it's intended to be, you know, it's, it's, it's well-meaning. She, she's trying to sort of give that that, give the son some confidence maybe. But, but again, we talk about these things that,
00:16:23
Speaker
you know, when we said, when when you're a kid, these things can be enormous. You don't, you're not able to process them in the way, you know, if someone said that to me now, I can rationally understand why they're saying it and all the rest of it. Whereas as a kid, it's almost like your emotion has been shut down. You know, maybe maybe you're really hurting and you're crying. And if if someone tells you to toughen up and do it, they're doing it well-meaning, actually the way you internalize that might be, I cried and I shouldn't have, I've been told not to. And so that becomes your lesson. So I think that,
00:16:52
Speaker
people reinforce stuff that, you know, they don't always mean to. And then other people, i think, I think may, maybe do, they talk about wanting the strong man type. You know, I've seen, I've seen criticism of men who maybe are, you know, lots of overt shows of emotion. I've seen criticism around that. So I think it,
00:17:09
Speaker
you know obviously Obviously everyone has their own preferences to to what they want in things like dating, for example, but yes we we all have a responsibility to change this perception of our masculinity. we we We all reinforce it in our own ways, regardless of of of gender. So
Engaging Men on Mental Health Issues
00:17:25
Speaker
I think we all have a responsibility to help break it down.
00:17:28
Speaker
We all have a responsibility, but putting it into action, what would you say is the the way forward so that we end up as we're in 2026, twenty twenty six yeah What's the positive vision of what masculinity could be be like in the future? What is it that we need to do? so the the way that i have tried to reach men and I think the way that I feel this has landed in this conversation is that think in recent years are our solution
00:17:59
Speaker
in trying to reach more men has just been to talk about male mental health. And we say, let's talk more about male mental health. and And we've told men, you know, it's okay to talk, talk when you're struggling. You know, obviously all of that is very, very important and needed. And, you know, it's ah it's a noble message.
00:18:13
Speaker
It's also a really difficult one for a man to to get and to understand because, you know, we come back to these this decades of conditioning, this decades of of beliefs. If a man, let's say there's a man that's 40 years old, for pretty much 40 years, he's been told never to talk.
00:18:28
Speaker
And then actually the message, you know, the the advert on a tube is just talk about it. That's but you know near on impossible to do because you've, you spent your whole life believing you shouldn't.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I think that. mental health itself can seem like quite an abstract concept to to men. So the way that that I've approached it, the way I've structured my book is talking about the specific topics that men are facing every single day, the things they're sat with, the things they're thinking about, maybe they're not talking about it, but it's it's the thing they're carrying. And that means talking about things like erectile dysfunction, hair loss, fatherhood, money, sex, dating, gambling, gaming, alcohol,
00:19:10
Speaker
yeah these These very, very specific topics, they can be quite nitty gritty. They can be quite awkward. As a society, we we may not want to approach them. But I think we we talk about these things and that's how you draw men in because that's the thing they're they're really, really thinking about. They're not always sat there thinking, I'm feeling anxious or i'm you know I'm going through shame or embarrassment. They're thinking, I'm losing my hair and I don't like it.
00:19:33
Speaker
And if you go in at the, let's say you go in at the hair loss conversation. So for example, I've had a hair transplant and I i talk about it really openly online. And i've had I've had more men reach out to me in the last year on on that, on hair loss, than I have had on mental health in 10 years because it creates that that kind of jump off point for men.
00:19:54
Speaker
And then, know, we're still having a conversation about masculinity and mental health. it It might not be explicit, but if a man has messaged me to say, I'm losing my hair and I don't like it, that That is a conversation about mental health. Because you're talking about identity and shame and embarrassment, all this kind of stuff there. But often have to just create that entry point for them. And then I will always ask them, you know, they'll come in quite functionally and they'll come in and say, where'd you get it done? How much was it? Did it hurt?
00:20:19
Speaker
And I'll always ask something like, you know, how are you doing with this? are you feeling about it? And that's when I can open the door and we sort of ladder down into a conversation on mental health. but it doesn't It doesn't always start there.
00:20:31
Speaker
So
Redefining and Personalizing Masculinity
00:20:32
Speaker
think that's how I found that we can we can reach more men. When I go to events, I talk about these topics, I talk about erectile dysfunction on stage, which you know can make people uncomfortable. but But I think these are the these are the things that that draw men in and and and how we we reach them.
00:20:48
Speaker
Yes, I can see what you mean. We've had episodes of Fit for My Age where we've talked to her transplant surgeons about the process of having a hair transplant and the impact that it has on people's mental health as a result of the person that i now see in the mirror looks a little bit more like me because it's one of those processes um
00:21:14
Speaker
you can feel you're this age but you're because you look in the mirror and see a different age it just disconnects yeah completely so we've covered that one fit for age we also covered the erectile dysfunction issue as well and having a serious conversation about men's health issues is very difficult for individual men very difficult for groups of men because it's not something that has happened before one guy said to me that he'd learnt more about the aging process that men go through from comedians on YouTube than he'd ever learnt from anywhere else.
00:21:55
Speaker
Where'd you get the information from? And it was the the joke that was told on YouTube video that led to him then investigating it because the joke told him that what was happening to him was not unique it was happening to everyone basically yeah and and it's it's a good point right like what where are we getting this education from that that you know for for me i had to go through this horrendous experience with my mental health which basically compact you know i was forced to stop and completely redefine everything i knew about being a man then i had to go on this journey of self-learning i had to learn about
00:22:36
Speaker
emotions, what are emotions? Okay. I have them. What is mental health? You know, really sounds really, really basic. Now I, now I explain it, but I had to learn that I actually have mental health. Whereas, you know, ah if I've been taught this stuff at a younger age, if I've been taught stuff in schools, I don't believe I would have ever got to the point that, that I did, you know, such such a serious place.
00:22:56
Speaker
Yeah. It's about understanding yourself and how to manage yourself through those difficult times. in a way that works for you as an individual without having to worry i suppose about what society might yeah exactly your story is one of well the people that mind don't matter the people that matter minded about you yeah yeah what you're saying i suppose then is that we need to understand more about ourselves as individuals take ownership of ourselves and work more
00:23:29
Speaker
at creating our own version for ourselves of what we want to be as men rather than trying to fulfill something that has been invented to be not ideal but idealistic the Calvin Klein models any model who can sell underwear products all power to them they work extremely hard to get those bodies i know they do I've been to the gym i know how long it takes to get those sorts of bodies and i am centuries away from being in that sort of situation so loads of respect to them but they are people that who work very hard at that they're not us everyday or new type blokes being ideal or being idealistic and the ideal is defined by you isn't it yeah you know whenever i do this work obviously people come to the question of
00:24:24
Speaker
so what does a flexible or more positive version of masculinity look like? you know Everyone kind of wants that that answer. And I think in this day and age, we want the simple answer, right? We want we want it kind of figured out for us. But think the reality is there's not there's obviously not one answer to that question. Like I can't just sit here now and give you 10 bullet points and say, do this.
00:24:43
Speaker
And you know you're being a positive version of a man. I think it it is so subjective and it's so individualistic. But I think what what it's about is doing the things and being the person you want to be based on who you want to be rather than trying to fit into someone else's perception. And that's going to look different different to different people. and And I think it means that, you know, we're not completely shutting down or rejecting traditional masculinity. Things things like strength and competition and leadership and independence, these are these are traits that a lot of men really, really value.
00:25:18
Speaker
And, you know, they they want to celebrate that with masculinity. So I think it's about recognising that but It's also about recognizing that that we're humans first. and And that means that we have a side of us that that is capable of vulnerability and you know emotion, compassion, empathy, community, connection, all this stuff. So it's it's about recognizing that is part of being a man too.
00:25:40
Speaker
And you know how much you lean into different things is is up to you, you know, some men will think strength is still their their kind of main trait and that that is fine. It's just about recognizing there are times for that and there are times for asking for help or, you know, being compassionate or whatever it might be. So that really for me is what positive version of masculinity is, is that are you allowing in the entire spectrum of of human traits and emotions that you have, you know, you have access to, it's there for a reason, and are you being the version of a man that you want to be rather than the one that you think you should be for someone else.
00:26:13
Speaker
Yes, I think that's the important bit. And I think that's what resonates with me the most is this idea that following the tribe is not the ideal way to be.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah. Masculinity is about having the courage to stand out from the crowd, to say when something is wrong, even though everyone else is saying that it's right. Yeah. And to be yourself.
00:26:38
Speaker
I think that is,
Conclusion and Reflection on Discussion Topics
00:26:39
Speaker
for me, is the most important part of it. but Yeah, like that. It's fascinating talking to you, George. I really have enjoyed it and really do recommend the book as well. So be a man about It's well worth a read.
00:26:52
Speaker
Thank you very much for your time. I really do appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael. Good to be here. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida, and in this episode, or Fit For My Age, I have been having a conversation with George Bell, the author of Be A Man About It. You can find out more about both of us by using the links in the description.
00:27:13
Speaker
At Fit For My Age, our aim is proactive positive aging. Knowing the risks early is an important part of maintaining good health. That is why we recommend the health assessments from York Test, especially the annual health test.
00:27:28
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Performed annually by an experienced phlebotomist, who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. The annual health test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers.
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After hospital standard tests are carried out in a UK AS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory, you will be able to access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure Personal Wellness Hub account.
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There is a link and as you would expect a discount code in the description. I'm sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Fit for My Age as much as George and I have enjoyed making it.
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Please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. You'll probably also want to tell your friends, family and work colleagues about Fit for My Age as well and the men in your life about this particular episode.
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Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think. but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of Fit For My Age, thank you for listening and goodbye.