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Championing Inclusion, Ethics & Compliance: Junna Ro, Head of Strategic Legal Initiatives, UC Office of the President
80 Plays1 year ago
When you disagree with your boss, should you let it go or take a stand? How do you lean into your integrity and vocalize your beliefs, especially when you aren’t aware of the strength of your own voice? And how do you advise your company to do the right thing, as well?
Junna Ro, the head of strategic legal initiatives for UC Legal at the UC Office of the President, has spent decades inhabiting leadership positions in the insurance and tech industry, both as the former general counsel at Metromile and the chief ethics & compliance officer at CSAA. But entering the world of legal without the connections and role models of her law school peers, she also knows what it’s like to be an outsider.
Join Junna as she shares her passion for diversity, inclusion, ethics, and representation, as well her journey to discovering the power of speaking out and standing up for your convictions.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-20
Topics:
Introduction: 1:09
Taking a break from legal work and reflecting: 2:22
Book recommendations: 9:23
Sharing the cultural context of your upbringing: 12:11
Existing as both a legal outsider and a legal insider: 15:16
Finding the courage to speak up in high-pressure moments: 17:34
Defining the difference between ethics and compliance in legal: 23:16
Moving into a General Counsel position at Metromile: 26:49
Taking a stand against Asian hate: 33:55
Advising executive teams on taking a stand on social issues: 39:23
Offering advice to leaders about tackling difficult topics: 44:16
Reflecting on failures: 44:56
Advice for young lawyers: 46:56
Connect with us:
Junna Ro: https://www.linkedin.com/in/junnaro/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Personal Integrity vs. Job Security
00:00:00
Speaker
Like, I think I will never love my job and job security so much that I will, like, sacrifice my integrity. I mean, is just something deep-seated in me? I mean, that could have been career limiting.
Spotdraft Introduction
00:00:22
Speaker
Before we get started with today's episode, I want to tell you about Spotdraft. If you spend hours every week drafting and reviewing contracts, worrying about being blindsided by renewals, or if you just want to streamline your contracting process, let's talk about an end-to-end AI-powered system that'll save you time. Spotdraft is a contract lifecycle management system that helps in every stage of contracting.
00:00:45
Speaker
From creating and managing templates and workflows, to tracking approvals, e-signing and reporting via an AI-powered repository, Spotdraft does it all. And because it should work where you work, it integrates with all the tools your team already uses. Spotdraft is the key that unlocks the potential of your legal team. Make your contracting easier today at spotdraft.com.
Ethics and Corporate Culture
00:01:09
Speaker
How do you keep ethics at the helm when navigating complex questions around corporate compliance, diversity, and inclusion? Throughout this podcast, we've talked a lot about growth. We've talked about navigating challenging conversations. We've talked about IPOs, M&A, and corporate restructurings.
00:01:26
Speaker
One of the things that I think we've been missing and what we're going to dive deep on today are some incredibly important conversations around working in the corporate world, navigating issues of diversity, inclusion, compliance, and ethics.
00:01:42
Speaker
I'm Tyler Finn, Head of Community and Growth at Spotdraft, and today I am super excited to have Juna Rho with us. She's previously been the General Counsel at Metro Mile, and before that, she spent 15 years at CSAA Insurance Group, which is a AAA insurer, in a variety of roles there, but culminating as their Chief Compliance Officer. So if there is anyone to have on the show to talk about ethics and compliance, it's Juna.
00:02:11
Speaker
She's a fun person. Today, we're going to be tackling some serious topics, though. Juna, welcome to The Abstract. Tyler, thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here today.
Career Reflections and Sabbatical
00:02:22
Speaker
Before we start talking about DEI and ethics, I know you've been able to take some time off work recently and have been able to spend a lot of that time reflecting. Tell me a little bit about how you spent the past year. Yeah. So just stepping back a bit, you know, as often, unfortunately, or fortunately, happens in tech.
00:02:41
Speaker
My last company, Metro Mile, was in InsureTech and we offered pay-per-mile auto insurance. We were acquired last summer. That transaction closed back in 2022. It had been a really intense nine months from the day we announced the merger agreement to the close of the transaction. I'd not only been the general counsel, but I was also asked to lead our HR function. I was really proud to help close that deal and to ensure a smooth transition. I got to handle so many
00:03:09
Speaker
different kinds of matters, right? From regulatory to employment to antitrust, litigation, corporate government. I mean, the whole thing is such a compressed period of time, right? It's like I lived like what a GC would experience over like five years in a like 18 month timeframe. So needless to say, I was definitely ready for a break.
00:03:28
Speaker
And I've never had this kind of a sabbatical in my professional career, right? It's been such a wonderful period of self-reflection, growth, and renewal. So I'll first start off by saying if you ever have the opportunity to take a break, I highly encourage you to do so. It will really give you perspective.
00:03:48
Speaker
And I just have a few highlights of this time off. So I got to travel, obviously, you know, I hadn't seen my parents. Gosh, I think it was a three year period because of the pandemic. Yeah, they live in Korea and we just decided forget it. It's not safe to travel. And so I got to just spend a month there living like a local.
00:04:05
Speaker
And just doing everyday normal things. And where everyday the biggest issue was, what the heck are we going to eat? We have so many great choices. You know, like, what's our adventure going to be today? And so that was really wonderful. I also got to spend some quality time with my daughter before she took off for college. And, you know, and we transitioned into being empty nesters. And so that was really wonderful to be able to do that.
00:04:28
Speaker
but also just taking spontaneous trips like road trip to Santa Barbara or wine tasting in Napa or even just playing tourist in my backyard in San Francisco and going for oysters and driving down all the tourist spots. The key was also just doing it midday or doing it midweek. These are the things you just never get to do. It was really fun to just have that newfound freedom that I've never had before.
International Networking
00:04:55
Speaker
And then I also had my fair share of like cool experiences. Like, yes, I did fly out to New York and take my daughter to the Taylor Swift concert. That was amazing. And, you know, got to go to museums and go to K-pop concerts. I mean, it was just like just this really wonderful time. I also did a lot of speaking. So I got to go to different conferences. You know, it was the first time I spoke at a conference where I was on the keynote panel on the main stage in front of like
00:05:21
Speaker
over a thousand people. But I only found out like the night before. It was like, oh, we're in the ballroom. Okay. And it just went great. Like it was just wonderful energy and got to do that at several different conferences and just meet up with such cool people.
00:05:38
Speaker
You know, like I'm sure you and many of your audience members, like whenever you go to a conference, you're always like rushing back to your hotel room and like trying to get your work done or you're checking your phone and like you got to talk to your boss and you got to like leave the session that you're really interested in. But like this was just uninterrupted, right? Like truly taking it all in, just meeting cool people from all over the place.
00:05:57
Speaker
I got to go to this conference called the International Association of Korean Lawyers, and I got to meet lawyers of Korean heritage from different countries, like lawyers from Belgium and Germany and Brazil. I mean, it's like really cool to do things like that.
Identity Beyond Job Titles
00:06:11
Speaker
And I also got to go to this, so Napaba is a National Asian Pacific American Bar Association.
00:06:15
Speaker
They had this pipeliner program. And so they've invited people who are, they want to basically grow the pipeline of ready now Asian lawyers who can take general counsel roles at Fortune 500 companies. It's this 50 by 25 initiative. So things like that, I just really enjoyed having this time off to really get to do the things I don't normally have the freedom to do.
00:06:38
Speaker
And also, I guess I just learned a lot about myself. We're so conditioned to tie our self-worth and our value based on the job title we have. And we're always gunning for that next promotion or the next accolade. And what do you do when you find yourself without a job or a title? And so that was something I really faced. I felt like I was stripped bare of all of the titles and the job, et cetera, and really had to think about, who am I?
00:07:07
Speaker
what worth do I bring? What am I made of? What do I want this next chapter to look like? And what work do I really enjoy? And where can I have an impact?
Job Search and Networking
00:07:17
Speaker
And how can I be a better person and a better parent and child and friend and mentor? All these things really came to the fore this past year.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so just really trying to be more present and appreciating the things that I have in my life and around me. So practicing gratitude has been a big deal this past year as well. And then of course, the job search.
00:07:43
Speaker
And I know you've written about this too, and you've been so great about connecting our community and having everybody feel supported. But there are a lot of people looking for jobs right now, and there's just been so many highs and lows. I don't know what you're seeing, but definitely in the Bay Area, it is a challenging market, especially for general counsel level roles. It's been somewhat volatile.
00:08:04
Speaker
Like I've seen things like a CEO quitting the Silicon Valley bank collapse. I mean, just like so many different things have really impacted the search process in really interesting ways. I've just seen so many different kinds of leadership teams, different kinds of CEOs.
00:08:21
Speaker
and cultures and different operating priorities based on what industry you're in. So that's been really valuable. But I think I also learned how interconnected we all are and the power and strength of your network, not only for leads and getting introduced to people and to opportunities, but also just for support.
00:08:41
Speaker
and validation and just for the sense of community. Again, that's why I think your role is just so important, right? It's like community building is so important. And so that's really helped me to learn to hone in on what I think is interesting work and really learn about organizations that are mission driven and that align with my values. And so it's been really a wonderful time. And also just finding ways for me to contribute. I've been doing some volunteering, joined a nonprofit board. And so yeah, that sort of rounds out my time.
Influential Books Discussion
00:09:10
Speaker
That sounds like a really great variety of ways to spend a year. And yes, like it was really great learning experience for you. I am curious. You have all that time. Uh, well, it sounds like you were pretty busy, but you have all that time and you read any good books while you were, uh, working a little less.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, I still have a stack that I want to dive into, right? I mean, we always do. And like, as much as I think I had time, yeah, like all the things I went through, that took a lot of time, too. But I do want to share, like, there was one of the more impactful books that I've read is called Grit, the Power of Passion.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, and it's by Angela Duckworth. She's this educator and psychologist and she studied grit paragons, which are basically people who have persevered and like really attained peak performance and like excel at the highest levels. And her basic thesis is that folks are who are successful are not necessarily the smartest or born geniuses, thank God. But they're the grittiest, meaning that like they stick with things over the long term until they master them.
00:10:15
Speaker
And it's a really strong case for having a growth mindset, right? And not basing things on like, oh, you're the smartest person in the room or you're the luckiest person in the room, but there's this power of like sticking to something. And then she also talks about passion, that it's not necessarily something you just develop overnight, which I think a lot of us do. You think, oh, I have a passion for X or Y. She was saying it actually takes hard work
00:10:39
Speaker
to cultivate your passions. And I just thought,
Cultural Identity and Expectations
00:10:42
Speaker
oh, that's a different way to think about it. I also love that she's an Asian woman doing some really impactful work. And by the way, she was also a teacher at my alma mater, Lowell High School in San Francisco. So that was a cool factoid. And then another book I wanted to mention that's always been so personally impactful to me is a book called Pachinko.
00:11:01
Speaker
It's by Min Jin Lee. She's a Korean-American writer. And it's a historical fiction novel that follows a Korean family over several generations in Korea and Japan. It starts during the Japanese occupation of Korea. And it's a story about Koreans who immigrate from Korea to Japan. And they experience discrimination and exclusion and being shunned for being someone who's different. And it just reminded me a lot about my life. I mean, I'm Korean-American.
00:11:30
Speaker
And I'm born here and I consider myself American, but I'm not always seen as American first. And then when I go to Korea, I am not a Korean. They definitely like, oh, you're not from here. And so that story really asked the question about what is identity?
00:11:47
Speaker
and what does it mean to belong and the impact of exclusion and treating others differently and that othering of people. So it was just a really powerful story and actually had a lot of resonance for me. And so I encourage folks
00:12:02
Speaker
to pick that one up too. Those are great recommendations and that's a great transition actually I think into the first question I've got for you. As we think about the topic today we're going to go back a little bit further than we usually do. Often I start these episodes by asking folks what got you interested in the law or law school and I want to go back further than that. I want to talk a little bit about your childhood and growing up in San Francisco
00:12:27
Speaker
you grew up in a pretty diverse environment. Tell us a little bit about the cultural context that you grew up in. Yeah. As I said, I was born and raised in San Francisco. My parents had originally come to the United States to further their education, so they got their graduate degrees here. But eventually,
00:12:47
Speaker
my extended, their extended family immigrated to the to the U.S. and lived with us for a while. And so I was very much steeped in some of the traditions from Korea. Like we always had regular family dinners and celebrated Korean holidays. And, you know, we had to bow to our elders on New Year's and we eat the special foods on Chuseok, which is Korean Thanksgiving, all those things. Right. Like we very much celebrated all the traditional holidays. And also there's an expectation that, you know,
00:13:17
Speaker
You keep quiet. You respect your elders and people in positions of authority. You know, it's sort of like the Korean culture. Like there's a lot of things that stem back from the Confucian ideals. And it's a lot about like respecting your authority and respecting your elders.
00:13:33
Speaker
And so that was definitely part of my upbringing. And also this focus on academic achievement, right? Like study hard, being top of the class, and all this academic achievement was really important. And so while I can't say that I experienced blatant discrimination, and I was surrounded by diversity,
00:13:50
Speaker
But if I think about it, I mean, I do recall isolated, random incidents where, you know, someone might drive by and say, go back to where you came from, or would ask, you know, like, I get in a cab and they're like, oh, where are you from? And I'd say, oh, San Francisco. And they'd say, no, where are you really from?
00:14:09
Speaker
Um, and it's like, you know, do, do my Caucasian peers ever get that question? I doubt it. Like, yeah, my ancestors are from Ireland or whatever. Right. Um, so that's where I'm from and I don't get it. Right.
Career Challenges and Representation
00:14:21
Speaker
Right. Right. And so it's like, these are these little things that you experience, right? And again, it's like, I never felt blatantly discriminated against, but I have had
00:14:29
Speaker
my share of those kinds of instances where you're like, are we the only ones getting these questions? And why is that? And also maybe I was a little embarrassed to have Korean food in my lunchbox when I was younger. People might look at it and like, oh, that smells funny or it looks foreign. So while I definitely didn't feel like an outcast per se, I did have my fair share of incidents where I felt like the other.
00:14:54
Speaker
But, you know, other than that, like totally normal childhood, I, you know, active in student government. And I wrote for my school newspaper. I was, you know, kind of a governance nerd, although I was also a cheerleader, you know, got a cool internship with the board of supervisors in San Francisco. So like, very active, but definitely had a lot of Korean cultural influences on me.
00:15:16
Speaker
I don't want to lose sight of the fact that you're accomplished by any measure, right? So like, you know, you went to UCLA, you have a JD, you had a great career at established companies. I want to kind of build on that tension though, and people might categorize it. And I know it's a frustrating phrase, but categorize it as like a model minority sort of challenge, right? In which you're simultaneously a little bit of an outsider, but you're also a little bit of an insider, right? How do you?
00:15:42
Speaker
handle that to the extent that you can explain as you're building this career in law. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right? Like from the outside, you might look at my career and say, oh, she's, you know, achieved some successes in her career. But it didn't come without overcoming personal challenges, which I think is sort of the invisible to folks. But my upbringing, right, being conditioned to respect my elders and authority figures,
00:16:10
Speaker
actually really made it challenging for me to speak up earlier in my career. I remember it was such a challenge to assert myself or to speak up on a position I had and to just really take up space. It just didn't feel natural to me. Also, I saw leaders who never looked like me.
00:16:29
Speaker
and never really had a common frame of reference with me. I'm the first lawyer in my family, but I observed so many others had the benefit of coming from a long line of lawyers, had vast connections with insiders that their families were in their neighborhood or in their networks. They just got insights and savvy from having those relationships that I just never benefited from. I realized that
00:16:58
Speaker
academic achievement and doing good work and keeping your head down was really only going to get you so far. And now having been in leadership roles and often being the first or the only in the room, it's reminded me of the importance of representation.
00:17:13
Speaker
Right. And when people see you in those roles, it starts to become normalized. And I've had so many instances where, you know, young women who look like me will come to me and just really talk about how great it feels to be seen and heard and to be represented in a way that they don't normally see. And so that's been really wonderful.
00:17:34
Speaker
That's fantastic. Let's talk about a few situations that you've dealt with over the course of your career. You mentioned in an earlier conversation that we had, I don't think we were even talking about doing a podcast episode at that point in time. When you were the chief compliance officer at CSAA,
00:17:52
Speaker
You found yourself in a compliance committee meeting with the board. And the course that you ended up advising, they take, ran counter to what your boss, who was the general counsel, was advising. Tell us about that situation. Yeah. So this was actually a compliance committee. There was senior leadership in the room.
00:18:10
Speaker
And I think it was like early on when I'd just been promoted into like the director of compliance. And, you know, I just recall, I won't share too much of the content of what was being discussed, but I just recall disagreeing so strongly with what my boss was saying.
00:18:25
Speaker
And I was very much like I was taking a hard position on the importance of compliance. And he was taking kind of more of a business friendly position, I guess I would frame it as. And I remember having this internal dialogue with myself at the time. And I was like, do I just let this go? He is my boss. I'm in front of some senior leaders here. Maybe I just defer.
00:18:46
Speaker
Right. Or do I take a stand and I just, you know, like this is my job and I should be able to take a strong position and to disagree and to like kind of show my colleagues like what I'm made of and what I believe in. So I decided I'm going to vocalize my opposition. And so I I did. I spoke up. I was like we kind of got into some heated discussion and disagreements in front of all of my senior peers. But I learned a lot from that. Right. And like one was
00:19:15
Speaker
that when I have conviction about doing the right thing, nothing is really going to stand in my way. It was sort of like when push comes to shove, that's the choice I'm going to make. But the second was, I think I will never love my job and job security so much that I will sacrifice my integrity. I mean, it's just something deep-seated in me. I mean, that could have been career limiting.
00:19:39
Speaker
Right? Like publicly disagreeing and kind of getting into it with my boss in front of everyone. That's a good intuition to have, by the way. I think we should all agree that we should all aspire to put our integrity before job security.
00:19:55
Speaker
Really? I don't know. That's just how I'm built and I can't escape it. That's when I realized it. I was publicly disagreeing with my boss. I just felt like, oh gosh, is this awkward? But it got us to a better place. I'll just say the last thing I learned was that leading a legal function is hard. He was the GC there.
00:20:18
Speaker
You know, you're needing to build credibility with your business partners and you're trying to get them to understand that, you know, that you get we're running a business, that we're not running a law firm, you know, that you're pragmatic, your solution's oriented. And so I get that that was kind of what he was trying to do in the room.
00:20:36
Speaker
And so that said, right after the meeting, my boss actually apologized to me and he said, you know, sorry that it got that heated. And that's when I learned that's the kind of place I want to be in, right? I'm there with someone who values me, who is okay with me taking a stand, who's open to learning and being challenged. And it's
00:20:56
Speaker
Basically, a safe space to speak up. I just learned so much from that, but that was also kind of a turning point for me where I just thought, okay, I need to be speaking up more. I need to really take up more space. Let's unpack that a little bit because I think this is a place where questions of diversity really do matter and the cultural context that you talked about earlier matters.
00:21:18
Speaker
Tell us about how you in that moment also sort of overcame the voices inside your head telling you to be quiet. How you found your voice there or even, you know, later on. Yeah. I mean, like I was saying, it really was a breakthrough moment for me. You know, you look back at your career. I think it's a good exercise to think about what were those like breakthrough moments throughout your career where there was a turning point.
00:21:42
Speaker
And that was definitely one of them. And I just learned the value of speaking up, which should be obvious, right? For all of us in the law, obviously, like we should be, right? But knowing there's some people, they're overcoming a lot more to get to that place of being comfortable speaking up. I certainly, and I'm not saying that all people who
00:22:01
Speaker
you know, are, you know, Asian or whatever have problems speaking up, but the way I was raised, it was definitely a challenge for me. That was an important perspective to share with others and to really lean into that. Like I said before, I learned, right, that it was ultimately a safe space to speak up and I didn't face retaliation, but instead was actually applauded for it and encouraged to continue that.
00:22:25
Speaker
So that was really pretty amazing. And you know, I don't think he'll ever know. Well, maybe now he will. But I don't think he'll ever know how much courage it took for me to speak up in that moment. But it's a day I'll never forget. You know, the other things I realized, right, and we should all know this, I mean, that that was many years ago, but I should have probably taken the time to, you know, brief these issues with him in advance.
00:22:48
Speaker
You know, there's a lot of value in like the meetings that happen before the meeting and really like socializing your position and kind of having that game plan. So there's no surprises in the room. And that was another valuable lesson. Right. It's like, OK, like this one, I should have as busy as we all were, should have taken the time to have the meeting before the meeting. Right. And just sort of go in there.
00:23:08
Speaker
with a game plan. So just a lot of learning, but really a breakthrough moment for me. One last question, I guess, on your time at CSAA.
Ethics in Business
00:23:20
Speaker
And when I was introducing you earlier, I think I called you the chief compliance officer. It's important to this question. Juneau was both the chief ethics and chief compliance officer while she was there.
00:23:31
Speaker
I'm curious what those terms mean to you, ethics and compliance, and both maybe how they differ a little bit in the abstract, but also in the day-to-day of how a business is run and the decisions that you're making as a company.
00:23:46
Speaker
Sure. So CSAA, I mean, we were an insurance company. We actually were a combined auto club and insurance company, but we split in 2011. So we were then with the insurance company and we offered insurance products primarily to AAA member households. And yes, I was a chief ethics and compliance officer. And so there's two components, right? The compliance piece is really like you're in a highly regulated industry,
00:24:10
Speaker
And insurance is highly regulated. We're actually regulated at the state level. So there's state departments of insurance that regulate our practices and how we show up in the market. And so we needed a central function that would monitor compliance across the company, that would assess risk on a regular basis, ensure that compliance issues were
00:24:31
Speaker
fixed and prioritized and really thought of as like part of doing business, not like on the side. So it was really about building and maintaining a strong control environment with lots of checks and balances, holding people accountable. So that was sort of like the regulatory compliance side. I'd say the ethics piece, that to me I think is about building
00:24:53
Speaker
culture, building ethical culture. What does that mean? It's like creating a speak up culture. Like you're trying to understand is there like potential misconduct? You're getting people to feel comfortable speaking up, reporting misconduct, getting people to value
00:25:09
Speaker
doing the right thing, avoiding conflicts of interest, and operating our business with integrity. So it's a lot of training, awareness, creating a culture where people feel comfortable speaking up, where everyone's included. And that is why I have a passion, obviously for building ethical culture,
00:25:30
Speaker
but also for diversity and inclusion. They both require you to create an environment where people are comfortable speaking up, where they feel included. I remember we would have listening sessions. I would go out to various locations across the company and I would ask them, what's going on here in this location? Do you feel comfortable speaking up?
00:25:53
Speaker
How do you feel about your management? Do you feel like you have a level of trust? Every location was a little different. You learn things and you also accomplish them seeing and meeting the compliance function in person and realizing that they care so much to come and talk.
00:26:10
Speaker
But it was really about finding ways to build strong culture. And so, like, you know, without having a commitment to a culture of integrity, which really kind of comes from the top, right? You need a tone at the top, right? Your leadership really is invested in doing the right thing and values transparency and values its reputation for doing the right thing. If you don't have that, then the rest falls apart, you know? And so, like, ethics is such a
00:26:41
Speaker
important component of having a compliance-oriented organization. I feel like those two are really complementary and necessary for each other. We'll talk more about how to go about that in just a minute, but we've got to lead the audience there and how you got to the position as general counsel at Metro
General Counsel Decision at Metromile
00:27:01
Speaker
Mile. You were at CSA for 15 years, which is a good amount of time.
00:27:05
Speaker
And then you decided to go take, and this is a pun on purpose, take the driver's seat, uh, see what you did there. Uh, as a GC at Metro mile, which is, was as, you know, a relatively large startup, but still a startup, probably very different culturally. Let's talk about that transition, right? Was it scary? How did you know it was the right thing to do? What did those conversations look like with?
00:27:32
Speaker
your family about making a big transition. Tell us about the decision to move to Metro Mile. Yeah, no. So I wasn't really actively looking when Metro Mile's recruiter contacted me about the opportunity. And I remember initially I was like, oh, oh, general counsel? Oh, I don't I don't think so. Right. And thinking that I need that many more years of experience or, you know, I don't know. I just for some reason never thought about that. That place for me. And
00:28:02
Speaker
It's interesting because the more I thought about it, I thought,
00:28:06
Speaker
why not me, right? It's like, at that point, I'd been practicing law for 22 years. And it was like, Juna, if not now, when, right? I mean, I was like- You asked me if you got the right question. Yeah. Right? And it's like, I was almost my worst enemy in like holding myself back, thinking I need to be that much better. I need to have that much more experience. You know, really, the time was right for that next challenge for me. Obviously, I'd been at AAA for a long time.
00:28:34
Speaker
And really, it became like family. I had such opportunities to grow my career there, so I was so grateful. But really, I was itching for that next, you know, major challenge in my life. And I had heard of Metro Mile. I thought it was an exciting opportunity. That company stood for change, right? And like in the insurance industry, I mean, this is like a long standing, pretty conservative industry. And the thought of them trying to innovate and to make insurance fairer and more transparent.
00:29:04
Speaker
and trying to move away from the traditional risk factors like age and zip code and credit score and moving to making insurance more fair. I mean, we weren't going to change the world overnight, but by taking steps in a different direction.
00:29:22
Speaker
maybe indexing more on how many miles you're driving and your driving behaviors. I just thought that was really, really interesting and necessary. So that mission really drew me in. The CEO, Dan Preston, was just an incredible, still is, an incredible human being that I felt an instant connection with. And so I just felt like, oh, this is something I need to do.
00:29:44
Speaker
And I even remember when I gave notice to my boss at AAA, he was like, you know, June, I really should be fighting for you to stay. But this is such a great opportunity for you. You have to go.
00:29:56
Speaker
You know, he was like so supportive. He's like, I'm so sad to see you go, but you have to do this. Um, and I'm so excited for you. So that was really wonderful. But yeah, this transition from going from a large established company, you know, like $5 billion, like household name to a smaller insured tech. And it very much still felt like a startup, you know, went from.
00:30:15
Speaker
3,500 employee company to 300 or something like that. That was a change. We'd actually gone public two weeks before I had joined, but there was just a lot to be done. There was just more governance to put in place, our public company reporting obligations, all that stuff. But it was my chance to start something new
00:30:34
Speaker
to lead the legal function, to have a seat at the table on the leadership team. And that was something I just couldn't pass up. I realized, well, I'm a strong corporate generalist. I've had exposure to a lot of different areas of in-house legal practice. And that's actually the skill set you need. And I remember a long time ago in my career, I had, again, like I was kind of more of a corporate generalist. I took on whatever different areas there was work.
00:31:01
Speaker
And I remember being frustrated about that. And my boss at the time said, Juna, being a strong corporate generalist is actually a skill too. So don't underestimate that. Not everyone can do that. And I just, that stayed with me. I was like, oh, you're right. And so like, you know, this role, navigating gray areas with limited information, limited time, navigating risk.
00:31:24
Speaker
being pragmatic and demonstrating grace under pressure. I mean, these are the things I think I do very well. I love leading teams. I love building. I love leading change. I love tackling issues. And I'm a nerd about process and governance. I mean, it was all in there. It was really amazing to be able to step into that role. But it took a lot of sacrifice. I mean, when you go with a smaller company moving fast,
00:31:53
Speaker
You need to roll up your sleeves and do what it takes to help steer that ship. You're not going to have as many resources. You don't have necessarily the longest runway per se, but you have good people who in many ways are dreamers and idealists. In order to really innovate, you got to be a dreamer. It starts with a good idea.
00:32:22
Speaker
Maybe that doesn't always appeal to everybody, right? And so like working at kind of a startup environment isn't for everyone, but if you like really like to dream and to make those dreams a reality, like I think that is what makes, you know, like the Bay Area tech environment so special. It's because you've got a lot of big dreamers and I just love that, right? And like change doesn't happen unless you like start out with a really a great dream and a great
00:32:47
Speaker
idea to innovate something that's established.
Innovation in Startups
00:32:50
Speaker
So for me, it was just an exciting opportunity to do something completely different. I'm going to ask about one of those situations where required a bit of grace under pressure and it was tough. But before I do that, I just want to make a comment, which is to say, I loved listening to you talk about the things that you're good at and you're passionate about. And I think that people in the workplace do that too little.
00:33:15
Speaker
whether it's because they, you know, they don't want to be seen as arrogant or right, commenting on all the things that they're great at right in face of a lot of other talented people around them or real challenges the business is facing. So just a thought for folks who are listening to Contemplate, which is maybe ask people.
00:33:37
Speaker
on your teams or in your business or who are your friends, what they're great at and what they're really passionate about because hearing you say that, you know, makes me want to work with you. Oh, maybe there'll be a day that comes. Who knows? Yeah. No, I love that. That's a really great observation.
00:33:55
Speaker
I'm going to bring up a little bit of a difficult time to set the scene for sort of the next point of conversation.
Leadership and Inclusivity
00:34:03
Speaker
I think many of us remember, I believe it was March of 2021, there was a murderer who went on a shooting spree targeting Asian businesses in Atlanta, then a bunch of violence against Asian Americans in major cities like San Francisco, particularly like
00:34:20
Speaker
grandparents in their 80s going to grocery stores. This was during COVID. There's a movement that really forms called Stop Asian Hate. So I mean that's sort of setting the scene and
00:34:33
Speaker
And you told me about a particularly amazing moment. Your CEO made an unscripted remark during a town hall at a Metro mile. Tell us just about that and what happened. Yeah, you know, I had just joined the company. It was a couple months in. And unfortunately, that violent murder happened in Atlanta. And so we were all reeling from it. And I was asked to lead a listening session because
00:35:02
Speaker
At that time, there was this alarming rise in hate crime against Asians. It was something like 300% rise in hate crime against Asians in that past year. It was just something we couldn't avoid. We had to talk about and we were struggling with what was the right way to address this. It just became, let's listen to people's stories and experiences. I remember sharing my own
00:35:25
Speaker
experiences. I mean, I remember having conversations with a good friend of mine, and he was like, yeah, like every weekend, we just go out. I know it's COVID, but like you can go enjoy nature. So like every weekend, we'll go find some cool place to hike in the barrier. There's so many different really wonderful places. But we always bring our pepper spray. And I remember going, what was that about? And he was like, well, you never know. I mean, these days, there's so much
00:35:52
Speaker
violence, and you got to like, you know, carry self defense. And I was just like, what world are we living in that we're having a conversation about like getting out enjoying nature and your family, but you got to bring your pepper spray. I just that, that just really stayed with me. And I needed to share that because people didn't know right, that that's, those are the kinds of measures that our friends in the Asian community are taking.
00:36:17
Speaker
And they'd be telling their parents, don't go to the grocery store. I'll go and get what you need and drop it off. Or asking their friends, hey, can you pick this up and drop it off? I don't want them out and about on the street just to take a walk in the neighborhood. And so there was a really sensitive time.
00:36:37
Speaker
and a really painful and traumatic time being in the Asian community. We had that session. I remember showing a clip of a news story that basically shared a lot of statistics about what was going on. It was really eye-opening. A few of us shared our stories. We had some questions and answers. It was really a time where I was a little more vulnerable, but I just thought it was important for people to know that even I was experiencing some of this and that
00:37:05
Speaker
to draw people in, to understand how real it was getting. I remember at the end of that session, my mom, Stan, basically was like, June, thank you so much for leading this session. It strikes me that the very people who were asking to lead these kinds of sessions are also the very people who've been traumatized and impacted by what's been going on. I hope we can do better.
00:37:31
Speaker
And it's really something for us to be thinking about, but thank you so much for leading it. Again, unscripted, I was so moved that he said that. That's the kind of leader you want to work with, right? Someone who really like gets it.
00:37:45
Speaker
I just felt so seen and heard and valued in a way that I had never anticipated or expected. That was one of those moments I'm going to keep with me forever. That was really special. What does that mean for a company's employees and the culture of an organization? I'll just put the question. So what does that mean for the culture of a place?
00:38:07
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's important, first of all, to have a leader who really sets that tone at the top, right? Who really takes this whole concept of inclusion and belonging seriously.
00:38:22
Speaker
to hear them talk about it. It's one thing to feel it, but to talk about it and to demonstrate that commitment is another. And in that moment, that's what he showed us, what he was made of. Just to have that kind of clarity and to have it come from your heart that just told me a lot about who he was as a person. And I just felt so supported in that way.
00:38:43
Speaker
I felt like with people like him and me sharing our thoughts on something very sensitive and traumatic, hopefully helped other people feel like we could see them too. You're fostering a culture where everyone is truly seen for who they are and valued. I think that was the big takeaway there. And also, again, like I said, there aren't a ton of people who look like me in those kinds of roles. And so for all of those folks who, people of color,
00:39:12
Speaker
Hopefully got a lot from hearing a leader who looks like them, who has a shared frame of reference, feel seen in a way that hadn't been seen before. I want to ask you about how is GC you advise on probably not immediately analogous or similar situations, but other tough questions like
Public Stances and Leadership
00:39:37
Speaker
this. Standing up and having a listening session given
00:39:40
Speaker
where Metromiles based, who the employees are. This is a no-brainer, right? I expect you also encounter other questions that are very much in the public sphere. And some folks might view them as compliance questions. Some folks might view them as ethics questions to be solved. I think other people may actually view them as political questions in which the business is taking a political stand. And it's in those situations
00:40:05
Speaker
As we've seen with the variety of companies, even this year, right? Taking, you know, positions, whether it's through their advertising or statements by CEOs. And the answer in those cases, I guess what I'm getting at is the answer in those cases about whether or not to engage is not always so clear, whether it's a sort of internal engagement with your employees or an external engagement with the press.
00:40:27
Speaker
I think they're tough. You, I think, have a little bit of a framework for thinking these through or a way that you've approached advising on them in the past. Let's talk about that. How do you advise your executive team on thorny questions like this? Yeah, no, it's a really good one. And there's no right
00:40:46
Speaker
answer at the end of the day, right? But I think there's a series of questions you have to ask. It's about deciding who you are as a company and what you stand for, right? I mean, there's some myriad of issues, but does that issue closely align with your product?
00:41:04
Speaker
your customers or your prospective customers. How will it affect your reputation to take a stand or not take a stand? And really just like examining what is at the core of who you are, not only as a business, although that's super important. In addition, as a member of your industry, as a member of the broader community, and as an employer, there's
00:41:28
Speaker
so many different facets of who you are and how you're seen. Who are your key stakeholders? What's important for them to know about what you stand for? Also, can you take a position that aligns with who you are that you can consistently fall back on? Because these things will come in the future. Is there a principle that you can fall back on that you can consistently lean on?
00:41:51
Speaker
And what's the right thing to do for you may differ from company to company, from industry to industry, but you have to know what you stand for, how you're going to show up in the world. I think those things are really important to be considering.
00:42:06
Speaker
How do you go about executing on that sort of decision making tactically? Are there things that you can do to prepare in advance before a situation arises where you might have to take a position as a business, whether it's with your employees or externally? Who do you think you really need to bring in? Who needs to be at the table when these conversations are happening? How do you go about this?
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's important to have, you know, like a lot of those questions I just asked, I think it's helpful to have that. I mean, especially in a lot of these things may emanate from kind of a crisis situation. And so I think it's a really good idea to have like a crisis management plan.
00:42:46
Speaker
It's sort of crisis management, but also just like a decision tree or sort of like a framework for what to do in these scenarios. Obviously, your leadership team is going to be really important, particularly your CEO, your communications leader is so important in these situations. Our communications person was our right-hand person.
00:43:05
Speaker
to think about the various audiences and what kind of messages you have to prepare, your head of HR, your business function leaders, if you have a head of risk. I think it's important to have these conversations again, like, hey, everybody.
00:43:20
Speaker
Here we are. Who are we? What do we stand for? Does this position we are proposing to take align with our business? Does it support, enhance, solidify who we are? Again, like I said, can you consistently fall back on that principle every time a new situation arises? Also, you're bored. There are investors potentially, right? It's like thinking about
00:43:49
Speaker
how those audiences are going to react and ensuring there's alignment across the board is going to be really important. And then ultimately what it boils down to is what's in the best interests of the company? I mean, it's a complicated question because there's so many different stakeholders to be considering, but like having that framework of all those things you're going to like interrogate in advance, I think is a really important one.
00:44:13
Speaker
commitment to having that conversation when it arises. Before we close on this topic, if you were going to give executives, leaders, a piece of advice around this that you think is really key to navigating these sorts of situations, whether it's professionally as the business or personally in that moment, someone in the middle of it, what would you leave them with? Take a stand for what you believe in.
00:44:38
Speaker
have conviction in what's right and the right thing to do, have the courage to do the right thing. For me professionally, that's always been my North Star. I think that's what I would advise others is to take that stand. As we start to wrap up our conversation, I've got just a couple more questions prepped for you. I think this is a really interesting one. I'm curious about this.
00:45:05
Speaker
What's the failure that you've experienced over the course of your career that you think a lot of folks may be headed for? They may not see on their horizon. Yeah. I mean, I mentioned it a little earlier, but I'll say it again.
00:45:20
Speaker
You know, like lawyers, so we're type A, we're like achievement oriented, we got to be the best, right? Which is great. But I would say it's that need to chase that next title, the next promotion, the next accolade without actually doing reflection on what's important and what's meaningful work for you.
00:45:42
Speaker
I definitely did that. Like I have to say, I've been running for a large part of my career. And you realize that chasing those titles will be exhausting and unfulfilling if you don't include time for the things that you really like to do.
00:45:57
Speaker
You know, it might be your work. Fantastic. You're already in the right place, but it may be other things.
Fulfillment Beyond Titles
00:46:03
Speaker
It is a very good likelihood of maybe other things, right? Like what feeds your soul? Sorry, that sounds so woo woo, but it's like so true because you can't escape it. What feeds your soul?
00:46:14
Speaker
Go do that and include more of that in your life. If you don't, you will burn out and feel depleted. Stop running and take a moment to have more gratitude in your life. I saw this quote many years ago. It was like at this coffee shop. It stayed with me. It said something like, enjoy the little things in life because one day you'll look back and realize they were the big things.
00:46:39
Speaker
I don't want to like continue to live life and like have regrets later, right? That I didn't stop and appreciate the little things. And so that's, that's something that I will share with you about something I think we need to be doing kind of a failure, but an observation. Yeah. A final question for you and looking back on, you know, when you were a young lawyer, any advice that you'd have for young lawyers who are just getting started today?
Advice for Young Lawyers
00:47:07
Speaker
Yeah, I have a few things. So I guess we'll take notes. Okay. One is I would say to be open to different paths to success. Like guess what? We're not all in the top 10% of our law school class. Um, like 90% of us weren't. Um, and also like your career is not a linear path, right? And I think that's what makes you so much more interesting. And I have found the most interesting lawyers that I've met with,
00:47:37
Speaker
have taken alternative paths, have had different jobs, or just did different things, and they just have a broader perspective on the world. If you have inner whispers to try something different, listen to it, because I guarantee you, they're not going to go away. There's an openness that I would encourage. Second, this concept that the law is not always right.
00:48:03
Speaker
I mean, I know we all blindly go, well, this is our position. This is what the law says. It's not always right. And it's in those times that we need to think about how do we advocate for change? And I shared this back when I was at AAA. We had a DEI summit, and there's a personal story. So I remember we were buying our first house in San Francisco. It's this neighborhood called Lakeside.
00:48:25
Speaker
Like super like stately like the white picket fences. I'd always thought gosh I want to live in that neighborhood and here we are we're like getting signing our paperwork at the title company and I remember there was like the CC&Rs it was like You know rules and regulations that like the neighborhood Association had you sign up for and I remember flipping through and there was a section and it just like shocked me But it said no one but those of the Caucasian race can live
00:48:55
Speaker
occupy or own any of the homes in this neighborhood. It's the bread lining. Yeah. I was just shocked. Don't worry, that whole thing that's been invalidated, but it's still there in writing and I saw it. I've been like, yeah, I know it's not, but wow, how shocking to actually see it. That was totally okay back in the 30s and beyond. The house was built in the late 30s. I share this because
00:49:25
Speaker
Obviously laws have changed since then, right? But how did they change? It was because people realized it was the wrong thing to do. And it's just like a lesson that sometimes a law is not right. It's framed for a different time. I think we in the legal profession should think about that. When there's change needed, let's be a part of that. Let's not live in a time where laws don't fit.
00:49:52
Speaker
the current situation. I want to share that because I think there's an opportunity for this next generation to really be thoughtful about that and always find ways to give back. We are so blessed to have a legal education and of course you have to pay back your student loans and you have to have the fancy titles and all that, the cool assignments with the cool partners or whatever, but we have a responsibility to give back.
00:50:15
Speaker
and to offer our time, our energy to those who've been marginalized or don't have ready access to legal services. I think it just helps to ground you and it helps us to build stronger communities and it's just the right thing to do. So that's my other word of advice.
00:50:37
Speaker
That is a fantastic way to close out our conversation.
Closing Remarks
00:50:42
Speaker
Juna, thank you so much for joining today. Tyler, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed having this conversation with you. And thank you to all of our listeners. We hope you enjoyed this one and hope to see you next time on the next episode of The Abstract.
00:51:05
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to subscribe so you can get notified as soon as we post a new episode. And if you liked this one, I'd really love to hear your thoughts, so please leave a rating or a comment. If you'd like to reach out to me or our guest, our LinkedIn profiles are in the description. See you all next week.