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40 Caroline Sheldon | Literary Agent
311 Plays4 years ago
Children's/YA/Adult literary agent, Caroline Sheldon drops in to talk about her long history with the Romantic Novelists Association and how meaningful her nomination for Agent of the Year has been. We talk all about where the publishing industry is at the moment, where it might be going and how Caroline approaches submissions as well as what she's looking to add to her list.
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The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Right and Wrong' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:02
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:03
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:06
Speaker
What does it say?
00:00:06
Speaker
I thought it would be a good... I didn't even get the idea.
00:00:12
Speaker
Maybe I can just ask you the question.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going well.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going really well.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and thanks for joining us once again on the Right and Wrong podcast.
Interview with Caroline Sheldon Introduction
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm Jamie and talking with me today is the one and only Caroline Sheldon of the Caroline Sheldon Agency.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hi Caroline, welcome to the show.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hi, so nice to be with you and I'm looking forward to it.
00:00:39
Speaker
Such a pleasure to have you.
00:00:40
Speaker
First things first, huge congratulations, nominated by the Romantic Novelists Association for Agent of the Year.
00:00:48
Speaker
So exciting.
00:00:49
Speaker
Thank you.
00:00:50
Speaker
I have to say it is a great thrill and I'm very honoured to have been nominated, particularly because I've always loved the Romantic Novelists Association.
00:01:02
Speaker
What I most like about them is their...
00:01:05
Speaker
mentoring that they've done for 40 years before the word mentoring was even thought of in their new writer's scheme where writers have commented on other writers' work.
00:01:15
Speaker
And many, many successful women's fiction writers have grown out of that mentoring scheme.
00:01:22
Speaker
Yeah, they've got a really sort of good base of work that's been going on for many, a great legacy, we would say.
00:01:29
Speaker
And I don't think anybody, any other writing organisation has been doing it.
00:01:33
Speaker
You know, I think it was completely
00:01:35
Speaker
I mean, it's almost been going since the Second World War.
00:01:39
Speaker
Wow.
00:01:40
Speaker
Because there's a lot nowadays.
00:01:42
Speaker
They're sort of popping up all over the place, mixtures of different sort of genre-based or age-based, all that sorts of thing.
Market Challenges and Teamwork Discussion
00:01:50
Speaker
But how did it feel when you found out that you'd been nominated?
00:01:53
Speaker
I was very excited.
00:01:57
Speaker
And amazed.
00:01:58
Speaker
And I'm very grateful to whoever nominated me.
00:02:01
Speaker
It's all secret.
00:02:02
Speaker
So that's just lovely.
00:02:04
Speaker
And, you know, we think we work hard as an agency.
00:02:09
Speaker
I don't think the market's easy at all.
00:02:11
Speaker
And it's just lovely to be recognised.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yes.
00:02:15
Speaker
And as you say, as an agency, because you are nominated alongside your partner in crime, Felicity True.
00:02:20
Speaker
I know.
00:02:21
Speaker
Well, Felicity True is a fantastic colleague.
00:02:24
Speaker
She is, yes.
00:02:26
Speaker
So I'm very excited to be nominated behind her.
00:02:28
Speaker
I will be right behind her winning.
00:02:31
Speaker
We do have 50% of nominations, which one might think should be odd.
00:02:36
Speaker
But let's see, let's see what happens on the night.
00:02:39
Speaker
And of course, all the agents nominated work really hard and
00:02:44
Speaker
So fingers crossed for them all, but us in particular.
00:02:48
Speaker
But you in particular.
00:02:49
Speaker
I mean, it's a great achievement just to be nominated because it's a very high calibre of people in that selection.
00:02:56
Speaker
I asked this to Felicity, who was on recently, but you guys do work closely, but obviously you have your own clients and your own lists.
00:03:04
Speaker
Did it feel like an especially special year for you this past year?
00:03:10
Speaker
I think it's been, I mean, we've all lived in the pandemic, haven't we?
00:03:15
Speaker
So things have been slightly different.
00:03:19
Speaker
I think it feels more like a continuation of what went on before.
00:03:23
Speaker
I mean, we're just terribly grateful that books have performed this,
00:03:30
Speaker
at least as well during the pandemic, possibly slightly better.
00:03:34
Speaker
But I think in terms of publishers taking up new authors, it's been a very, very tough time.
00:03:44
Speaker
You know, getting a new author taken on by a major publisher in print and E!,
00:03:52
Speaker
is a rare occurrence now, whereas it used to be the norm.
00:03:58
Speaker
And many of new writers are being directed to the e-book lists, which, I mean, it's a beginning, but it's not quite what one most might hope for.
00:04:11
Speaker
No, the dream is always to go to a bookshop and see your book in the shelves and like hold it in your hand, I guess.
00:04:18
Speaker
And of course, even if you're published as a mainstream paperback, you know, Waterstones only stops, I think about one in 20 of authors published, something like that, which is scary.
00:04:32
Speaker
So authors do have the awful experience of going to bookshops and not seeing their book on the shelves.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
And not necessarily because it wasn't there, but perhaps someone bought the few copies that they had.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:44
Speaker
So like good and bad, you don't see it, but someone bought it.
00:04:46
Speaker
So that's good.
00:04:49
Speaker
I'd love to hear more about you and your journey in publishing.
00:04:53
Speaker
You've been in publishing quite a long time now.
00:04:55
Speaker
Yes, I'm very bad at maths.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah.
Caroline's Career Journey
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think it might be 40 years, but I'm not going to delay the interview while we absolutely work it out.
00:05:06
Speaker
Let's get the calculator out and just maybe be sure.
00:05:10
Speaker
Well, I started working as an editor.
00:05:12
Speaker
Well, I didn't start as an editor.
00:05:13
Speaker
I started as a secretary, which is except a rather bad one because I never did a typing course.
00:05:19
Speaker
which is how people started, or women started in those days.
00:05:23
Speaker
And I became an editor, let's say, after two years.
00:05:27
Speaker
And I edited the women's fiction list at Arrow and built up a list of successful authors and was lucky enough to edit Ruth Rendell in Pegback, which is one of my great pleasures, but also built up a list of women's fiction writers who were successful at the R&A, who worked
00:05:46
Speaker
shortlisted for RNA awards.
00:05:49
Speaker
I think maybe won RNA awards on a number of occasions.
00:05:53
Speaker
So that was great fun.
00:05:54
Speaker
Then I took on the children's book side of the arrow list as well.
00:05:58
Speaker
So I've always in my career done two things, women's fiction and children's list.
00:06:05
Speaker
And then about 30 years ago, I decided I wanted to represent authors and I set up the agency and that's what I've been doing ever since.
00:06:13
Speaker
Wow, you've really, it sounds like you were done, first of all, you've been working closely with the RNA for a long time.
00:06:20
Speaker
I have.
00:06:20
Speaker
Very long time.
00:06:21
Speaker
So this must be very meaningfully that this is the association that nominated you, which is lovely.
00:06:27
Speaker
And also, my God, you've done, you've really sort of done so many, such a wide sort of breadth of work in the industry.
00:06:33
Speaker
It sounds like you enjoyed editing.
00:06:36
Speaker
What was it that made you want to then swap over to representing?
00:06:41
Speaker
Yes, I think I wanted, you know, I wanted to be more with the author on their journey, which perhaps you are more as an agent.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, I can see that.
00:06:53
Speaker
And right in at the start of the dreaming up of the project and the concept and all that.
00:06:59
Speaker
So, yeah, I see what you're saying where it's nice to be along for the ride as opposed to...
00:07:05
Speaker
I suppose editing is more the sort of conclusion of, of if, you know, if each book is a journey, it's the conclusion of that journey.
00:07:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:13
Speaker
I mean, editing, you do get the excitement of the finished book with the cover and, you know, you've actually produced that thing.
00:07:21
Speaker
And, and, and that's, I, I mean, I don't miss it so much now, but when I first became an agent, I definitely missed that.
00:07:28
Speaker
And I also miss reading the reps reports of people who are actually out on the road, sort of selling it,
00:07:35
Speaker
throughout the UK and hearing what's moving.
00:07:38
Speaker
It's slightly different to the bestseller list.
00:07:40
Speaker
There was a lot of information on those reports we got in.
00:07:43
Speaker
So I miss those two things.
00:07:45
Speaker
But I do like being involved in an author's career.
Roles of Editors vs Agents
00:07:49
Speaker
I think that's what attracts me about agenting.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:53
Speaker
I mean, it must be equally or perhaps in a different way fulfilling when you take that book from concept all the way to, and then you see it on the shelf and...
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:03
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I can, I can see the appeal of both and I can see why they're both very competitive fields.
00:08:08
Speaker
Have you yourself ever wanted to write?
00:08:15
Speaker
Oh, I, I didn't write something once, but I think the answer is no.
00:08:19
Speaker
And the talent to, I mean, it is an extraordinary talent and, you know,
00:08:25
Speaker
Where it comes from, who knows?
00:08:27
Speaker
You know, it's not, I think storytelling, I suppose, is what you might mention as the talent you might be able to notice in all people who write books.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:38
Speaker
Imagination, but the imagination has to be under control.
00:08:42
Speaker
Way with words, another thing you need.
00:08:46
Speaker
And these aren't the skills an editor or an agent has.
00:08:51
Speaker
You think it's more clinical what the agents and editors do?
00:08:54
Speaker
Yeah, more clinical.
00:08:57
Speaker
You know, I think editors and agents can have vision of what they think is going to work and what's going to work on the shelves and titles.
00:09:05
Speaker
I love titles, you know, thinking about them.
00:09:09
Speaker
But actually writing a book is a rare, rare talent.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:14
Speaker
I mean, I'm impressed by anyone who, you know, you just finish a book and whether that gets picked up by an agent, whether it gets published, it's just an impressive feat to have finished a book.
00:09:25
Speaker
It's a fantastic thing to have done.
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:27
Speaker
But of course, I mean, if you knit a jumper, your friends are really impressed.
00:09:33
Speaker
If you write a book that isn't published in a particular way, it's a bit of a damp squib, you know, nobody is impressed as they should be.
00:09:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:43
Speaker
Because I mean, the, the stereotypical thing that all my writer friends is when, when you tell someone who's, who's outside of this bubble that, Oh yeah, no, I've written a book and they'll say, Oh, where can I buy it?
00:09:52
Speaker
And it's like, well, it's not published yet.
00:09:54
Speaker
It's like, well, when are you publishing it?
00:09:55
Speaker
That's not as simple as that.
00:09:58
Speaker
One does not simply snap their fingers and it is published.
00:10:01
Speaker
No.
00:10:03
Speaker
So you've been in the industry for around 40 years.
Publishing Industry Changes
00:10:06
Speaker
We're going to say, we're going to guess, uh,
00:10:09
Speaker
What do you think?
00:10:10
Speaker
It might be 50.
00:10:10
Speaker
It could be.
00:10:11
Speaker
I think I am going to get the calculator.
00:10:15
Speaker
No, while I'm talking, I'll just do a little maths.
00:10:18
Speaker
I should have prepared.
00:10:20
Speaker
Well, my question was, what do you think are the biggest... 48.
00:10:26
Speaker
48 years, there you go.
00:10:28
Speaker
Almost 50, almost the half century.
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah, I've done my time.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:34
Speaker
What do you think are the biggest changes since you started in the industry and since now?
00:10:40
Speaker
Oh, I mean, I don't, basically, I don't think there are that many changes.
00:10:47
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:10:49
Speaker
Still, you have to find the best books, you have to publish them in the best way.
00:10:54
Speaker
I think editors are probably less independent than they used to be in publishing houses.
00:11:02
Speaker
And perhaps,
00:11:03
Speaker
You know, perhaps it was easier to publish more with less corporate input.
00:11:09
Speaker
You know, the name of the game is sniffing a bestseller, promoting it, finding an author who's going to work.
00:11:16
Speaker
You know, that's not changed and that's the essence of the business.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:23
Speaker
Do you think it's much more competitive now?
00:11:25
Speaker
It's much more crowded?
00:11:28
Speaker
I'm not saying it's more crowded.
00:11:30
Speaker
It might be less crowded, but...
00:11:33
Speaker
There's less being taken on, I would say.
00:11:39
Speaker
I'd say, I'm sorry, I'm depressing.
00:11:41
Speaker
I'd say there were fewer opportunities for writers to earn money.
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, I can see that.
00:11:49
Speaker
Surveys by the Society of Authors would back that up.
00:11:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:55
Speaker
Well, I mean, you mentioned earlier, a lot of new writers are pushed towards e-books now.
00:12:01
Speaker
And I mean, inherently an e-book is cheaper online and you're not usually going to make as much, I presume, as much money on a deal with an e-book than you would with a, you know, the full suite, as it were, as was traditionally done.
00:12:16
Speaker
Hopefully one's moving towards that.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:20
Speaker
And there is usually some limited printing of the book, but it's not a big print edition.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:30
Speaker
And I'm sure people who publish on e-book only deals, as you say, do go on to, you know, if that's a success.
00:12:36
Speaker
Oh, there will be people who go on to big success.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:12:40
Speaker
Whether that's with that book or with the next book or, you know, what have you.
00:12:44
Speaker
And one has to remember many bestselling authors, it may be their 12th book, they become a bestseller.
00:12:51
Speaker
You know, it's not first book wins all.
00:12:55
Speaker
It's, you know, there's a growth, there's a growth of fans, there's a growth of writing, there's a growing presence in the market.
00:13:03
Speaker
And that is all still true.
00:13:07
Speaker
I mean, if people aren't given the ability to grow their talents, then...
00:13:12
Speaker
we won't have those giants of the industry.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:15
Speaker
The example I tried, I've tried to explain a similar thing to, to some of my friends.
00:13:19
Speaker
And the example I always give is it's like, well, had you heard of game of Thrones before it was, you know, before it was what we now know as game of Thrones.
00:13:28
Speaker
And it's not even called that.
00:13:29
Speaker
That's not even, that's just the first book.
00:13:31
Speaker
And I'm sure there will have been a moment at some editorial meeting somewhere where
00:13:36
Speaker
where some editor was sort of fighting for that book to be published and somebody was saying, oh, we don't want it called that, oh, it doesn't sound the right sort of author, oh, we don't like, you know, these books have been fought for and positioned.
00:13:53
Speaker
And as an editor, the best thing that can happen is, you know, you've fought for this author and their books for years and then suddenly the sales director says, oh, I'm so glad I've always backed this project.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker
And you just have to go along with it and pretend it's their project and let them make it their baby and sell it hard.
00:14:14
Speaker
Taking all the credit.
00:14:15
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:14:16
Speaker
As long as the author succeeds and the book succeeds.
00:14:18
Speaker
Exactly.
00:14:19
Speaker
That's all us agents and editors want.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:14:24
Speaker
Do you think there are any big shifts coming on the horizon for the industry?
00:14:30
Speaker
Well, I heard there was a shortage of paper, which would be a nightmare, wouldn't it?
00:14:34
Speaker
Well, yes.
00:14:36
Speaker
I mean, that would be the worst thing that could happen.
00:14:39
Speaker
So let's hope that's a rumour and not true.
00:14:42
Speaker
Even more e-books.
00:14:43
Speaker
Big shift.
00:14:44
Speaker
I mean, one way big shifts might move is that less books are published, fewer books.
00:14:52
Speaker
And I think this is a shift that's been happening for a while, that there are fewer books published and therefore...
00:15:01
Speaker
There's less advance money for new authors and that's the biggest shift I'd see.
00:15:08
Speaker
Hopefully we've got another phenomenon somewhere out there about to happen like Game of Thrones or J.K.
00:15:16
Speaker
Rowling or Lee Child.
00:15:18
Speaker
There must be some phenomenon.
00:15:21
Speaker
major bestsellers on the cusp of being born and we don't know who they are but there will hopefully be something mega coming through because a really big success takes things through in its slipstream and success builds success so the more success there is the more success follows upon it
00:15:41
Speaker
Yes.
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:42
Speaker
I mean, you can see it in all kind of pop culture where Game of Thrones was big and then suddenly you saw all these fantasy television shows and movies.
00:15:50
Speaker
And now we're on to epic sci-fi with Frank Herbert's Dune, the new movie just coming out.
00:15:58
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:15:59
Speaker
I understand.
00:16:00
Speaker
Well, you'd hope so if you've read the book.
00:16:04
Speaker
You'd hope so.
00:16:06
Speaker
If we could dial it back a bit now from these, you know, talking about the industry to focus a bit more on you.
Book Submission Preferences
00:16:13
Speaker
And I want to get a little bit technical with you here.
00:16:17
Speaker
You and Felicity are always open to submissions.
00:16:20
Speaker
You're always looking to grow your lists.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yes.
00:16:23
Speaker
When it comes to a submission,
00:16:26
Speaker
It's a pretty standard package.
00:16:27
Speaker
It's a short cover letter about the author, first three chapters or 10,000 words, three sentence synopsis.
00:16:36
Speaker
With those things, when you receive a submission, what order do you open them in and where do you sort of put the most weight in?
00:16:44
Speaker
Right.
00:16:45
Speaker
Well, I do love the three sentence synopsis because it's like when you buy a book in a bookshop.
00:16:52
Speaker
It's nice to know what you're about to start reading.
00:16:55
Speaker
So, yeah, that matters to me.
00:16:57
Speaker
And it hasn't got to be.
00:16:59
Speaker
It's just got to describe.
00:17:01
Speaker
I mean, as punctually as possible.
00:17:03
Speaker
But so.
00:17:04
Speaker
It's really nice for me to have the three sentence description.
00:17:08
Speaker
My eyes scan the email sending the book in pretty quickly, but I do notice whether the person writing the email is sort of able to construct a narrative of what they're writing and why they want to be published and
00:17:25
Speaker
maybe a little backstory about them.
00:17:29
Speaker
And then I would never read the synopsis yet.
00:17:32
Speaker
Next, I would always go to the writing because I would only get back to the synopsis if I really liked the three chapters.
00:17:40
Speaker
So a vague peg of what I'm going to be reading in the three lines, then read the writing and see if I like it and its characters and its drive.
00:17:51
Speaker
And then...
00:17:54
Speaker
Having, say I really like the three chapters, which I'm afraid doesn't happen all that often.
00:17:59
Speaker
I'll go back and reread the email and find out a bit more about the author.
00:18:03
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:18:03
Speaker
And probably scan the synopsis to see what was going to happen.
00:18:08
Speaker
And I'm sure...
00:18:09
Speaker
My lovely colleague Felicity does the same process.
00:18:13
Speaker
If I remember... Did she do something slightly different?
00:18:16
Speaker
No, if I remember she does... We didn't talk about that in the recent interview.
00:18:21
Speaker
It was in the first interview we talked about that.
00:18:22
Speaker
And I think it was... Yeah, she took a similar approach to it.
00:18:25
Speaker
She doesn't go anywhere near the synopsis until she's read the first few chapters.
00:18:31
Speaker
But I've spoken to other agents and a couple that go synopsis first.
00:18:35
Speaker
So it's always interesting to know.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yes, we're all different.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:18:41
Speaker
I hate reading synopses.
00:18:42
Speaker
I find them... I hate, I mean, I think... Everybody hates writing.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, everyone hates writing a synopsis because it's so mechanical and it's against what you as a writer want to be doing.
00:18:55
Speaker
You know, it's just tell, tell, tell in this brief, like lifeless.
00:19:00
Speaker
And I would never make my synopsis longer than two paragraphs, I don't think.
00:19:05
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:07
Speaker
I mean, I know one can go for two pages, but, you know, it doesn't need a and then and then and then, you know, it's just roughly where it's going and where it's ending up.
00:19:19
Speaker
So from a synopsis essentially is broad strokes just say what's happening, right?
00:19:25
Speaker
So as long as you think, as long as a synopsis gets you through the sort of the start, middle and end, as short as you can keep it.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yes, I would.
00:19:36
Speaker
Well, that's great advice.
00:19:37
Speaker
And I'm sure a lot of people writing synopsis will be relieved to hear that they can write a shorter one.
00:19:41
Speaker
Yes, I mean, probably two pages isn't considered long, but I would regard that as the longest.
00:19:48
Speaker
And 20 pages would be just horrible.
00:19:51
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah but but but you can see how how you know people can do that and and it's that classic thing absolutely write a book and then find out how to submit a book and it's a whole it's a whole roller coaster of uh of different things to to learn yeah that's really interesting and hopefully some people listening who might be thinking about submitting to you will take will hear what you've said and they'll send you more sharp submissions for you for you to look through there
00:20:16
Speaker
I mean, I always quite like if they compare themselves to other writers because it's a useful shorthand, you know, if they say I'm somewhere between Angela Carter and Sarah Walters, you know, it just is a useful shorthand that puts you in the right frame of mind.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:35
Speaker
And I am a sucker for a nice title.
00:20:38
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:20:39
Speaker
Sucker for a nice title.
00:20:40
Speaker
Everyone listening who's about to submit.
00:20:44
Speaker
And talking about anyone who's looking to submit to you, what sort of stories, characters, genres are you looking for at the moment specifically to add to your list?
Current Literary Interests
00:20:54
Speaker
I would say Felicity takes on more than I do.
00:20:57
Speaker
I mean, I'm pretty full.
00:21:00
Speaker
Your list is, I imagine, much bigger than hers.
00:21:03
Speaker
Not much.
00:21:03
Speaker
Not much.
00:21:04
Speaker
She's not a big list.
00:21:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:21:08
Speaker
She's probably got more developing authors than I have.
00:21:12
Speaker
We both have different things.
00:21:16
Speaker
I think anything sounding epic is great.
00:21:21
Speaker
Anything, an ambition, I think.
00:21:26
Speaker
I feel the market just needs something with a lot of ambition at the moment.
00:21:34
Speaker
That quiet is a word I'd always, I mean,
00:21:39
Speaker
I'm going to, I love poetry, but lyrical is a word.
00:21:43
Speaker
I'd need a few other adjectives linked to it.
00:21:47
Speaker
I wouldn't, you know, to launch a book that was just lyrical would be difficult.
00:21:53
Speaker
Books that tell you about something, an industry or embroidering, I suppose that is, you know, books that,
00:22:07
Speaker
give the reader information at the same time as they're reading the book so you're learning about something as well.
00:22:14
Speaker
And lots of, I love description of places and smells and of course storytelling is the, I mean, those who can and those who can't and those who can storytell is really what we're looking for.
00:22:29
Speaker
That sort of mysterious, unquantifiable X factor.
00:22:32
Speaker
And use of language, I mean, that matters enormously.
00:22:36
Speaker
Yes, but I would assume that use of language also is it's language appropriate to the thing you're writing or the character.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:22:46
Speaker
Okay, well, that's very helpful.
00:22:48
Speaker
Maybe playing with the reader a bit.
00:22:50
Speaker
I mean, that's something you are in charge of that person sitting there.
00:22:55
Speaker
And I think it's nice if authors show some sense of that.
00:22:58
Speaker
Like a back and forth with the reader.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah, no, I love it.
00:23:01
Speaker
But don't confuse the poor reader.
00:23:04
Speaker
I'm probably bad at too much switching from points of view.
00:23:10
Speaker
Sure.
00:23:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:12
Speaker
I love traditional novels.
00:23:14
Speaker
I'm not...
00:23:15
Speaker
Okay.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:16
Speaker
I've read a lot of the recent epic fantasy and a lot of them are like seven or eight point of view characters and you're jumping between a lot.
00:23:24
Speaker
So I'm used to POV swaps.
00:23:26
Speaker
If it works, it's fine.
00:23:27
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's it.
00:23:28
Speaker
I mean, you know, that's the thing, but I feel one reads quite a lot that doesn't work because someone's using a tricky narrative device that... Tolstoy and Dickens are my...
00:23:42
Speaker
Okay, well, the bar's pretty high with those two.
00:23:45
Speaker
We're looking for Tulsa and Dickens.
00:23:47
Speaker
So if you've got that, submit it, guys.
00:23:50
Speaker
Interesting, you mentioned quiet writing.
00:23:54
Speaker
A friend of mine is writing an article for Scooby on quiet versus commercial fiction.
00:24:03
Speaker
What's your take on that?
00:24:06
Speaker
I mean, thinking of children's books, you know, two writers I really love are
00:24:11
Speaker
Michael Morpurgo.
00:24:12
Speaker
Now, I wouldn't regard him as a quiet writer in any way, but he's a sensitive writer.
00:24:18
Speaker
And, you know, it's not wham, bam, in your face.
00:24:22
Speaker
I'm not looking for that.
00:24:24
Speaker
Or, you know, I don't think you'd ever describe Mallory Blackman as quiet, but I'm just using examples of people who
00:24:35
Speaker
they're not in your face as writers, but they're storytellers and they pick important themes and they're actually both quite in the middle of, you know, either boys or girls can read them.
00:24:50
Speaker
I think you wouldn't think Michael Mulperger was a quiet writer, therefore, but he's obviously a tremendously commercial writer.
00:24:58
Speaker
But there are elements of quietness in his work.
00:25:01
Speaker
So quiet versus commercial isn't it.
00:25:05
Speaker
isn't a total polarity.
00:25:08
Speaker
You know, you've got to have something to say and to be able to tell the story and build it up.
00:25:15
Speaker
I'm trying to think if I can think of a quiet book I've loved and I'm sure there is something.
00:25:21
Speaker
The one that comes to mind for me is A Monster Calls.
00:25:24
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:25
Speaker
Is that quiet?
00:25:26
Speaker
How can you, you know, you... What is quiet?
00:25:29
Speaker
It
00:25:32
Speaker
you know, if it was so quiet, you didn't notice it.
00:25:35
Speaker
It obviously isn't going to work, but yes.
00:25:38
Speaker
So I wouldn't describe a monster calls as quiet.
00:25:43
Speaker
When we finish the interview, I'll probably think of a book that's quiet that I love.
00:25:48
Speaker
I mean, I captured a castle.
00:25:51
Speaker
Is that a quiet book?
00:25:52
Speaker
I don't know.
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:54
Speaker
I mean, I guess the way I'm, I'm looking at it is,
00:25:57
Speaker
is more that I'm thinking the commercial books are the very loud, nonstop action in your face all the time sort of books.
00:26:07
Speaker
But you're right in that, why can't a quiet book be commercial at the same time?
00:26:12
Speaker
I mean, there have been writers, because we're triggered by the Romantic Novel Award, like Rosamund Pilcher, who I wouldn't regard as quiet, but
00:26:22
Speaker
they're a sort of comfortable writer who's evoking worlds and taking you into them.
00:26:29
Speaker
And it's not that sort of quiet.
00:26:33
Speaker
I guess insignificant and quiet would be hopeless for me.
00:26:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:38
Speaker
So I guess it's all down to what is quiet for the individual.
00:26:43
Speaker
Yeah.
Desert Island Book Choice
00:26:44
Speaker
And this brings us to the time where I ship you off to a desert island.
00:26:48
Speaker
Oh my goodness.
00:26:50
Speaker
Just like that, so abrupt, you're off on a cruise.
00:26:54
Speaker
What book would you take with you if you were stranded on a desert island?
00:26:58
Speaker
I'd take a nice hardback copy of the book.
00:27:03
Speaker
New Oxford Book of English Verse because I've always loved poetry and I could read John Donne and Andrew Marvell and W.H.
00:27:14
Speaker
Auden and, you know, just all the different voices that I've loved and loved.
00:27:22
Speaker
that would keep me busy for about an hour every day.
00:27:28
Speaker
Are we on a desert island?
00:27:30
Speaker
I mean, I'd be absolutely useless on a desert island.
00:27:34
Speaker
That's fine.
00:27:34
Speaker
You'd have your poems.
00:27:36
Speaker
I'd have my poems.
00:27:38
Speaker
Once a day for an hour, I'd lift myself out of my gloom.
00:27:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:43
Speaker
And there's a timelessness to poetry where you can read it again and find different meaning in each word.
00:27:48
Speaker
And you might get quite cross with a novel if you kept reading it again and again and again.
00:27:54
Speaker
You'd reach a point where you'd start editing it because you'd read it so many times.
00:27:57
Speaker
No, this could have been better.
00:27:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
I think a book of verse would give you the sort of, you know, it would last.
00:28:05
Speaker
I mean, I hope I'm not on this desert island for too long, but say I was there for 10 years.
00:28:10
Speaker
I think it'd be much more chance of helping you than a novel would.
00:28:16
Speaker
Yes, perhaps spiritually.
00:28:17
Speaker
But I could take Marcel Proust because I've only read the first two books.
00:28:21
Speaker
I mean, if you took the home of the memories of Time Spast, that would keep you going for quite a long time.
00:28:27
Speaker
It would, yeah.
00:28:29
Speaker
That would last you for a while.
00:28:30
Speaker
Or I could take Bleak House as a novel, which is my favourite novel.
00:28:35
Speaker
There's quite a lot of that.
00:28:38
Speaker
Well, perhaps you could use it to start building a shelter or something.
00:28:41
Speaker
You wouldn't have to burn it.
00:28:42
Speaker
I wouldn't mean to burn it.
00:28:44
Speaker
You just lie there in the sun.
00:28:46
Speaker
Just swim out to sea, I think, and say bye-bye.
00:28:51
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me.
00:28:54
Speaker
Not at all.
00:28:55
Speaker
It's been really lovely.
00:28:55
Speaker
It's been really informative.
00:28:57
Speaker
Thank you.
00:28:58
Speaker
And I hope your listeners will find it interesting.
00:29:04
Speaker
I'm sure they will.
00:29:05
Speaker
I am certain.
00:29:06
Speaker
I mean, I found it interesting.
00:29:07
Speaker
So if they don't, I'm benefiting
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:29:10
Speaker
from it anyway.
00:29:10
Speaker
And if anyone listening would like to keep up with Caroline's news and updates, you can follow her on Twitter at Caroline Agent.
00:29:18
Speaker
And if you're thinking of submitting to her or Felicity at the Caroline Sheldon Agency, head over to the website carolinesheldon.co.uk.
00:29:25
Speaker
be sure to read through the submission guidelines.
00:29:28
Speaker
That is your first test to being published, fulfill the guidelines.
00:29:33
Speaker
And to keep up with this podcast, you can follow us on Twitter at Right and Wrong UK and listen on all the usual audio channels.
00:29:40
Speaker
Best of luck, Caroline, with the award on Thursday.
00:29:44
Speaker
And hopefully I'll be able to see you at some point there.
00:29:47
Speaker
That would be nice.
00:29:48
Speaker
Yes.
00:29:49
Speaker
And thank you for sharing all of your experience with me and everyone listening.
00:29:54
Speaker
Thanks again.
00:29:54
Speaker
Take care.
00:29:55
Speaker
And we'll catch everyone next time.
00:29:57
Speaker
Lovely.
00:29:58
Speaker
Bye-bye.
00:29:59
Speaker
Bye-bye.
00:29:59
Speaker
Great fun.