Transcript
Speaker: Hi everyone, a quick heads up ahead of the episode. Unfortunately, it's been brought to my attention that there is a scammer impersonating me. They've been emailing people from a faked account, posing as me, and offering paid packages to come on the podcast. To be clear, there is no payment involved for guests. I do not charge guests to come on the podcast, and obviously that means there are no packages for guests and the like.
Speaker: If you're unsure that you are in communication with me or the scammer, you can check by messaging me on my verified Instagram account at rightandwrongpodcast or through my website, contact page, rightandwrong.co.uk forward slash contact. That's all from me. Stay vigilant and enjoy the episode. Ooh, a spicy question. I love Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writing isn't there. So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by a writer, photographer and editor who was last on the podcast back in 2021 to talk about her debut novel. She has since published two more novels with a fourth on the way.
Speaker: It's Amelia Chazay. Hello. Jamie. Thanks for having me back. Thanks so much for coming back. and and And after such a long time, I'm excited to catch up and hear about everything that you've been up to in that time. But let's start, as we always do, with the latest publication, ah The Cinema on Yosef Boulevard. Tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker: Yeah, great. um Yeah, so the Cinema on Josef Boulevard is um a sequel to ah a book called The Café on Manor Lane, which came out a couple years ago, um set in London in the 1950s. But the Cinema on Josef Boulevard ah opens in Budapest at student protests where um Sebastian, who goes by Zeb, is a 20-year-old student and he sees his childhood love Rebecca dancing on stage and the enthusiasm builds and they both get sucked, um swept up in this student rebellion that's based in an actual cinema, Cinema on Joseph Boulevard, Corbin Cinema, which is actually ah a real place. It's still, it's still standing. um And then for a very short period of time,
Speaker: um The students build a movement that goes citywide and nationwide against Soviet aggression. And it's a time of very high hope and enthusiasm. But ah sadly, history will tell us that the Soviet tanks sort of pervade and scatter the students and the fighters all across Europe.
Speaker: And so Zeb finds himself in cold and alone in London and he gets ah taken in, stumbles into this um community of exiles and and immigrants, um including a Nigerian doctor, Adebayo and his French wife, um Bella. And they try to serve the community and they also operate kind of on the fringes of society.
Speaker: And Zeb has to sort of navigate the East End and the London son of Underbelly as it's still recovering from World War II. But ultimately he has to figure out who he is and how he can get back to Rebecca, who's been exiled across Europe.
Speaker: Okay, cool. A lot going on. This is obviously historical fiction. You said it was a sequel. Do you need to have read The Café on Manor Lane for this to make sense? I say, I say sort of say sequel or, or companion because some of the characters you do meet in cafe and um this kind of eccentric community that holds this mixed race couple together through difficult times ah they continue, but it is, it's Zeb story, this one. And i yeah, I was excited to sort of ah bring him in and see, see what happens and how he interacts
Speaker: with this like wider community, but it's his story um and it can be read standalone. okay Okay, great. and the you know this is This is a real historical event that happened that you've based this around?
Speaker: Yeah, I am i mean, when i so we're going to talk about the writing process, but when I start writing, i I don't know where it's going to take me, but I did get very intrigued by this cinema in particular and this kind of student movement that really rose up with such high hopes and it does have have parallels in in some of what we're seeing today.
Speaker: Yeah, okay. Whilst the events and that obviously locations are real, are the characters, were they real people or were they are they based on real people or are the characters entirely fictional? No, the main characters are not. There are some historical characters mentioned in here, like the Prime Minister and stuff, but otherwise, no, they're they're they're fiction.
Speaker: Okay, great. Which gives you obviously a a lot more flexibility to to do things with them and stuff. You're not so bound to ah the the truth of it all. And that is coming out on 7th of September, correct? Yeah.
Speaker: And I was looking at this, are you self-publishing this? Yeah, this is indie published. I've had, yeah, we could talk about the journey. I've had different publishers at different times. Yes, I was going to say, you've had a very interesting kind of adventure in publishing. Because when we first talked back in 2021, when your debut Into the Mouth of the Lion came out, that was with Unbound, yeah is which is like a sort of ah crowdfunding publisher.
Speaker: Yeah, at that time, and I think we talked about this earlier, yeah Into the Mouth of Lion is ah a book I still will always love. It's my debut fiction set in Angola about a photographer looking for her missing sister.
Speaker: um ah But it kind of crosses genres. It's a page-turner thriller, but it's also really about family history. and about sisters. And I just couldn't, find I found champions, but I couldn't really find the right match until I found Unbound, which at that time, and unfortunately Unbound's dissolved now, which does happen to small publishers and indie publishers at a high rate, unfortunately. But um for me, it was a good fit because I could tap into my networks of of over 20 years of working in humanitarian relief all over the world, but also published with very good credentials, very high editorial,
Speaker: um very good editorial, very good cover and get the book in libraries, in bookstores all around the world. um So that was very good for me. But some people have a more difficult time crowdfunding um and Unbound unfortunately dissolved, i think earlier this year or last year. And um some authors really had a hard time because they they were owed a lot of money, unfortunately. um But I had a good experience with them and I wish them well. um and then But the second book, Ahead of the Shadows, I didn't want to crowdfund again. i i wanted to keep going, but I didn't want to go through all that very specific unbound procedures. So I indie published my second book, Ahead of the Shadows.
Speaker: Was there like a big learning curve in terms of like figuring out how to indie publish something or did you learn a lot from the unbound experience? ah I think both. So Unbound, I did learn a lot through editorial, but also that um ah what's true now in 2026 is that the author you the author cares more about the book than than anyone else will. So I need to become eloquent and... um talking about my book, sharing my book. ah I can't expect anyone else to do it if I'm not comfortable doing it and proud of my book and produce a piece of work that that I can be proud of and that I want people to read, to to come up with their own reactions. And you put a book out there and you you need to let it fly. You do need to really let it fly, but you stay with it. um
Speaker: So I did learn a lot, but then... um Yeah. And the third book was quite different. Should I talk about Café? Yes. And this is the Café on Manalém, which is the the companion novel, maybe prequel to the the new one, right?
Speaker: Yeah, so a few years later, and I did different things. I taught creative writing, and I also i run an arts collective and other things. um But i had a different kind of story, so not based in the humanitarian world, not a thriller, ah set in Southeast London, um and characters that kind of came into my life first as short stories. And I thought it was going to be a book of short stories centered around a cafe. And then I realized the connections between the stories were too strong.
Speaker: to just leave them as short stories. um And that book I did wide submissions and I found, I didn't find an agent, but I found Harper Collins' One More Chapter, who were sort of open to quirky books that don't quite fit into the genres. um I think I was just commercial enough um for them to take a bet on me. And that that was a good experience. That was a really good experience. um But it was, yeah, back in traditional publishing, which takes a long time.
Speaker: takes a really long time, like almost two years, even more than two years to get the book from agreement to in bookstores. um And, you know, the world doesn't wait and creativity doesn't wait. So it was a long experience But again, very good editorial. ah We went back and forth on the cover, but I really liked the cover and my readers really liked the cover. And that's my most popular book by far. But I found myself now writing and in two genres. And some of my readers like all of my books. Some will only like one series or or the other series. Um,
Speaker: And that's okay. That's okay. I want to reach readers wherever they are and have these conversations. But um yeah, so I'm writing in two genres now. And then HarperCollins, I have a good relationship with them. They've done a very good job, but they looked at cinema on Joseph Boulevard. They also looked at other um kind of seeds of ideas I have, but they ultimately decided I was um ah kind of a bit on more on the literary side.
Speaker: than what this part of HarperCollins publish. um And so i I, that's okay. It's a bit like a ex-boyfriend, I guess. You know, if they say it's not it's not going to work out, then you realize it's not going to work out. But i I still think that there's readers who will really enthusiastically follow this kind of series. And so I just decided to keep keep going and indie publish cinema and and see how we do.
Speaker: Okay. With one more chapter, you said that you kind of submitted that quite widely. Did you, did you have a list of like, uh, imprints, uh, or like editors that, what that would take unsolicited unagented, um, manuscripts?
Speaker: Yeah, there's, um, there's different lists or there's different opening submission windows. So one more chapter do like once a year have an open submission window. um You need to yeah see if your manuscript might fit what they're looking for. um Some other ones to do it. More of the digital publishers do it, and it works very well for some genres better than others. I think um crime and ah romance do very well, but crime and romance do very well in in lots of cases. Yes. But yeah, I did a lot of research, a lot of submitting, but in the end, I'm i'm very stubborn. I've been doing this for more than 10 years and I just, I can't stop. I have to let the creativity keep driving the train. so
Speaker: and And so obviously with with with the new book, Cinema of Joseph Bullard, you are self-publishing again. are you Now that you're doing this the second time around, are you doing anything differently?
Speaker: Am I doing anything differently? ah I think I'm just, ah I know that a book needs support in the months before and in the ah sort of the time of release and and ongoing. um er But yeah, I'm thinking more about what worked well with the Café and Manor Lane. So um because it really centers on location, so Southeast London is is kind of but almost a character in Café and Manor Lane.
Speaker: And London is also, yeah, a character in um and Cinema and Josef Boulevard, but it's, ah and Budapest as well. So I'm trying to reach readers who care about London, care about Southeast London, care about Budapest, care about student hope, the kind of,
Speaker: the journeys you go through, particularly in your in your twenty s I think, I end up circling back a lot of times to this sort of phase of our lives when we're often very desperate for something to change, but also ah yeah don't know who to trust. Sometimes we take chances. Sometimes we um are faced with dilemmas that we've never had before. And this sort of time period, of the 50s, but also the age of the 20s really interests me.
Speaker: Okay. With the self-publishing, you know, you said you're targeting certain groups people who are interested in certain things. Obviously when you, when you indie publish your, the marketing is all up to you. How are you, you know, how are you reaching the, how do you, how do you kind of put the book out there and try to reach the right audience for the book?
Speaker: it is um sort of luck and and momentum but I did quite a few events with libraries, bookstores and book groups before and so I'm i'm reaching out to them. um Also in October it's the 70th anniversary of this uprising in 1956 and I'm hoping to um touch base again with historical societies, um other people who are interested in kind of this period of time. But but um Yeah, i i know it's a kind of continual process. I i hope you don't mind me saying i um I've suffered a ah bereavement in the last couple of months. And so i haven't had the energy quite to do as much pre-launch as i wanted to. But I... um
Speaker: I know that books have a shelf life and i want to, um I promised my father who passed away that I would get this book out there and it's dedicated to him. And I believe in this book and people who've read the advanced versions do really enjoy it. They say it's uplifting and that's what I want to do. So I think it's a long game. I'm not expecting to be New York Times bestseller on on day one, but I do hope I can reach readers who've either ah been curious or read me in the past or who have been part of these conversations.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to hear about your your your father. And i think, you know, you're obviously passionate about the book and you're you're very happy with the kind of final product. And I think through word of mouth and like the the best stuff does usually rise to the top. So fingers crossed, it won't be, you you haven't got like the massive billboard marketing campaign, but I think it'll get there eventually.
Speaker: Thank you. that That's kind. i mean, word of mouth is very powerful. piece People passing on a book to their family, to their book group. I mean, it does really build. It's really it's really wonderful.
Speaker: Yes. I mean, I bring it up all the time now because I'm part of the cult, but look no further than Dungeon Crawler Carl if you want to see the power of word of mouth. But in terms of self-publishing with you,
Speaker: Are you feeling pretty comfortable with it now? You're kind of like having almost done it twice now. In a few weeks time, you will have done it twice. Do you feel like you've learned the ropes?
Speaker: and I don't know. Maybe ask me this question in about three weeks time. but um Yeah, I think so. I think also um it's a business publishing a book. And I don't mean that cynically, but you do need to look at how how to pay for it and how much money.
Speaker: things cost and um what you're hoping to earn and what you're what you're willing to to lose. And that's fine. I mean, any artistic endeavor needs to have risk and needs to have um champions.
Speaker: um But yeah, I am more comfortable. i also, I think um people ask me, I did sort of a book tour after my second book and I'm really happy with myself, if I'm allowed to say that, that I didn't give up after book one. ah Yeah.
Speaker: that I didn't just turn into a one book wonder and then say, oh, I could have been. And so for me, it's it's quite gratifying to follow through on my beliefs and my ideas. And I do have, yeah, two or three other drafts of books that I need to turn attention to. do Not that I'm going to ignore my earlier ones, but I have a momentum and it's kind of a yeah promise I made to myself and ah my kids, my family, that this is meaningful, that I'm going to keep going. So self-publishing is part of that. if I think I'm sort of a hybrid person arthur If the next book has the right fit with an agent or a traditional publisher, I will look at that fit.
Speaker: um But I do know there's costs there too, um in terms of time and also in terms of ah yeah just artistic control and otherwise. And ill yeah I'll make the choices I can make.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. yeah with With traditional publishing time is the huge thing that is added on with that. And then like you said, creative control. Uh, I think, uh, Amelia, you are you are absolutely allowed to be proud of yourself and happy with yourself for continuing to, to write books.
Speaker: Um, Before we head over to the cabin, just have one more question for you. It's a sort of a bit of advice, maybe. What advice would you give to ah any writers out there who are considering self-publishing for the first time? Are there any sort of tips or parts of the process that you wish you'd known when you, when you'd first tried it Um, yeah, I mean, it's a good question. I mean, I do lead sort of creative writing practice sessions and otherwise i would say self-publishing, uh, you need to reach a point where you're very confident in your book and that where you, you don't take small knocks badly, you know, you don't take one rejection and just say, Oh, okay. I but won't, I won't do it. Then you need to be very confident, I think in your idea. And, um,
Speaker: and promoting yourself as an author, as a writer, and as someone who can maybe inspire others. um But then also I would say don't, ah you do listen to podcasts like this one. And um the Alliance for Independent Authors is a great podcast. The London Writers Salon is a great podcast.
Speaker: um Do research, do have a writing group, writing friends with, you know, different who follow different paths, but also um go with professionals and it does cost money.
Speaker: Get a good editor, um get a recommended editor. is, has done work ah with Harper Collins in the past and came recommended. And I, he is wonderful. I get a good cover designer.
Speaker: um There are things you could do yourself, but only if you are already a professional designer, I think. um So make a book you're proud of. um before you think about self-publishing and otherwise. And there's also, there's a lot of different ways now. It's not just an on-off switch. Some people are very comfortable with Kickstarter.
Speaker: ah Creatives often take that route, um combining different creative um endeavors into different packages for um having a kind of longer term relationship. I mean, I know you on the Right and Wrong podcast, you have Patreon. I think that works very well for some people.
Speaker: Yeah. I myself, I'm not on Substack, but a lot of people do make that work. I'm not against it. I just, I can't find time for it. But um so you you need to probably, yeah, think about not only the product, but building your your community so that when you do launch, there's some other people to help lift you up.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. and And like you say, that there's so many different ways of indie publishing now. And I've spoken to, you mentioned Substack, I've spoken to an author very recently, Elizabeth Richardson, and and previously I've spoken to another author who serialized their books and released them on like a ah weekly or monthly cadence on Substack.
Speaker: So like you say, there's there's so many different ways of getting a book out there, but sounds like your your main advice is you just need to believe in the product and be kind confident about the the book that you've made, the manuscript, the story, whatever it might be.
Speaker: Yeah, and do go for feedback early, you know, when you can still fix things, fix errors. So I do think a writer's group is is really important, however works for people online or in person. I've got this wonderful eccentric group of people I have grown to love locally, and they're a real mix. I think a mixture of feedback is very important. So some of them write gothic horror, some of them write romance, some of write futurism, some of them write other genres as well. But so their feedback will reflect different attitudes, which is what you need if you want a book to go out widely.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. um We are at the point where I ask you, Amelia, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
Speaker: so i love I love this question um because I think some of your um interviewees love the idea of being snowed into a woodland cabin. But like right now, that's not really a my idea. I really at this phase of my life, I really want to travel.
Speaker: um I want to see the world and to experience it. So I when I can't travel, I do that through books. So a book that's just come out by a writer I admire, ah Emily Midori Kawa. She's an award-winning author of nonfiction, but this is her first fiction. It's called A Tiny Speck of Black and Then Nothing.
Speaker: um It's just come out. ah It's set in Osaka in Japan, and it follows a British-Japanese student who's teaching English um and kind of lost.
Speaker: And she gets sucked into the sort of underworld of of Osaka when her friend goes missing. um I'm only halfway through. So it's also, you know, choosing a book I want to read and I'm i'm really in the depths of it. But um for me, it's really exciting to sort of experience other parts of the world that I haven't yet gotten the chance to see. i haven't yet been to Japan, but it's on the list. um And to really sink into a good...
Speaker: a good story. Emily Matorikawa is an author i I met actually online in COVID times. I really admire her. She's um ah written about female friendship. She's written about female voice. She's a journalist, but then this is her long time coming fiction. She started about 20 years ago when she was a student in Japan, but it's taken a long time and it's worth it. It's a beautiful book.
Speaker: Okay, great. That sounds awesome. There's also, I always think there's something very exciting about um when an author from like one style or one genre, or like you said, in this case, nonfiction writes something, you know, this sort of counter to what they've done previously. i feel like if if you like the thing they did before, it's sort of exciting moment to be like, Ooh, I'm so interested to see how they put their hand to this new thing. do you know what i mean?
Speaker: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think that's, yeah, that's what's exciting about being a creative is that not letting them put us into tiny boxes and just say, keep going and what you've done before. um And that's what makes, yeah, for better conversations and more interesting people, but maybe maybe I like eccentric people, but um I think that's what people want to seek out. They want new stories, new angles. They don't just want what they had before.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it makes me think of, uh, sometimes you, an actor who's known for comedy will suddenly do something serious and everyone would be like, wow, that was amazing. Like, i can't believe it. And it's kind of that feeling, right? It's like, oh, you're known for the nonfiction, it's like, wow, that, that fiction piece blew me away.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think, um, we need to sort of embrace that and expect that more often, but, um, yes yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't need to force everyone to just do one thing over and over again on repeat.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's what makes us human. That's what makes us interesting is we you know we we can surprise people, we can surprise ourselves. Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Awesome. So next up, we're going to touch on um a bit of like how Amelia has has published all of her books without an agent. And then we're going to get into more of the writing process and how that's evolved over the years. That will all be available in the extended episode, which you can find at patreon.com forward slash write and roll.
Speaker: I've been taking photographs for more than 30 years and some of my best work, you know, I'd like to see it large. I'd like to see the impact of it. So it's not necessarily only about novels or all about the mainstream. It's about the the momentum, I think.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. Like a artistic expression and just kind of creative output and just getting it out there. That sounds great. Do you think that self-publishing is something that really works for you and that it's something that you're going to continue to do ah indefinitely, I guess?
Speaker: Yeah. I think maybe you asked me that in in a few weeks time. i mean, I'm also experimenting with, um, KU are going wider at this time. ah But yeah, publishing is a strange ecosystem kind of in shock at the moment with so many different shocks. But ah books will always be needed, whether they be eBooks or physical books, and people will be reading despite what the doomsayers say. um so ah yeah, it is possible if I get I mean, you need to have a good team around you. i Yeah, i love my editor and my cover designer.
Speaker: but I had a former editor a while ago who just kind of disappeared without a trace. So you need to hold on to good people if you can and have a team around you um and a community. I mean, that's what my last few books are really about community without sugarcoating it, you know, because London can be a harsh place, but for me, it's home.
Speaker: And for lots of people like me who've come from different places and married people from different places and doing our best um to raise our kids and be, you know, good people. London is home. So I think community is is very important and being part of that is very important.
Speaker: that's That's great. And and I think and a nice sentiment to to wrap up the the podcast on. So thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It's great to hear about all of your adventures is everything you've been up to since your debut. And and and of course, the the new book, The Cinema on Joseph Boulevard, which is out on September the 7th. Yeah, thank you so much, Amelia, for coming and chatting. It's been so fun.
Speaker: Thank you, Jamie. I love talking with you. It's it's always great. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Amelia is doing, you can find her on Instagram at abk underscore writing or on her website abchazze.co.uk. And that's spelled K-Y-A-Z-Z-E in case you were wondering. To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
Speaker: Thanks again to Amelia and thanks to everyone listening. we will catch you on the next episode.
