Transcript
Speaker: Hi everyone, a quick heads up ahead of the episode. Unfortunately, it's been brought to my attention that there is a scammer impersonating me. They've been emailing people from a faked account, posing as me, and offering paid packages to come on the podcast. To be clear, there is no payment involved for guests. I do not charge guests to come on the podcast, and obviously that means there are no packages for guests and the like.
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Speaker: Hello and welcome back. to the right and wrong podcast on today's episode i am joined by a veteran game writer winner of netflix's inaugural find your voice award and a frequent contributor to the no sleep subreddit subreddit for short horror stories it's max dote hello hey so glad to be here No, so's so great to have you on.
Speaker: Let's start, as I always do, with your most recent publication, which is ah your debut horror novel. It's out right now in all the usual places. Tell us a little bit about The House That Eats the Dead.
Speaker: in the house that eats the dead, a San Francisco couple, Tom and Claire, decide to leave the city for the suburbs and acquire this very nice Queen Anne mansion down in Los Altos. ah And shortly after moving in, discover that it eats...
Speaker: dead things that they bring in. And a dead thing could be anything from, you know, like an actual dead body to something like cotton or wood, like a dead tree. And so ah it starts with things disappearing like cardboard boxes ah and escalates from there. ah I guess the other big wrinkle in this is that when the house eats something in that manner,
Speaker: it erases it from existence as if it never was. And only Tom and Claire remember that it ever existed. So, for example, when their child's beloved teddy bear gets eaten that way, the child forgets that they ever had a teddy bear.
Speaker: And ah from there, Tom and Claire kind of start thinking of ways they can use this ability to their advantage. Okay. And this is, is this a sort of darkly funny thing or is it quite serious?
Speaker: ah i I would say there are definitely parts where you're kind of like laughing. I don't know if like Claire is ever laughing. She takes it very seriously. I think ah you could probably actually read it in multiple ways. Like you could read it as all dark, darkly funny, or you could read it as like quite serious. um could the The tone is, I think kind of will meet the reader where they want to be.
Speaker: Yeah, which I think is true of a lot of horror. There's like different ways you can like approach that genre and and enjoy it and in a different, with a different scope. I feel like, yeah, you can be in a theater and half the people are screaming and half are laughing and then back and forth. um So I think, ah yeah, it I think good horror can really ride that line. You know, like, yeah,
Speaker: Like Widow's Bay came out this year and I think a lot of people think it's hilarious and a lot of think people people think it's terrifying and it can be both. Yes. Yeah, know exactly. That's a great example. um So the the characters, they're they're originally from San Francisco. Are you from San Francisco?
Speaker: I grew up in Oregon, but then i lived for about 20 years down in the Bay. I lived in the missions, San Francisco. And then I myself lived in Los Altos when I was a little older and i had my first kids.
Speaker: Okay, right. So there's, there's parts of this will be pulling from your kind of memory of that area and and and the the feelings around that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, theres there's some, I think, some social commentary about, oh, you know, gentrification and and like, uh,
Speaker: I think the wealth disparity of those areas that that had to make it in just from me living there. but ah But yeah, I think, you know, it's a debut book and a lot of authors are going to probably pull from their own experience like course crafting a world like that.
Speaker: Yeah. Cause it just helps you with the authenticity. Like there's a, there's a truth behind it that, you know, innately that will be easier to translate onto the page. Um, when it came to like the first kind of ideas, the, the, the sort of seed that grew into the story, which is now finished, was it inspired by like the location of San Francisco or was it like different ideas? Was it this sort of supernatural element that you started with?
Speaker: The seed of the story was, this is, i I have to credit my wife because ah basically i think the seed was that my wife always anthropomorphizes our house.
Speaker: And so like, if we're to talk about, you know, renovating or a part like maybe, oh, I wish, I wish when they built this house, they did the stairs a little different or any of those things. um She refuses to have those conversations while we're inside her house because she's like, the house is going to hear, the house is going to be upset at us. It's kind of like a joke, but she's it is like a real rule that she takes seriously. So i think ah being a horror writer, I kind of like my my mind goes to like a dark place with that stuff. And ah and that was definitely like the genesis of the of the concept.
Speaker: Okay. That's, yeah, that's cool. And I see, yeah, you're bringing in the horror element. She's bringing in the, ah probably in in her head, the house is probably friendlier and nicer. You know, she doesn't want to hurt its feelings.
Speaker: Oh yeah. And our house doesn't eat any dead things. It's it's very nice to us. But, ah you know, one could imagine what it might be like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um So when did you this came out in August. When did you, I know that publishing can be quite slow as as an industry. When did you first start writing this story?
Speaker: So i think this is back in 2023 and the story actually started as a series on Reddit on no sleep. Okay. And, uh, at that time i was just kind of in this like crazy manic writing mode where i I was putting up a new short story or part of a series every two or three days, I, something like two or 3000 words, um, every two or three days. And, uh,
Speaker: Yeah, I just kind of like popped out the first story and ah and then people really, really liked it. And I had a ton of, you know, it was kind of this kind of viral moment where a lot of people were giving ah up votes and it was getting a lot of attention. So then I started, I realized I had sort of a lot of other ideas about this house. And so the first story turned in into two then three and four, five, six, seven, and... um And then, yeah, and and at that point, an agent reached out, my my agent, Maria Brannan, and said, Max, this is great. Like, can we turn this into a novel? Have you ever thought about that? Which was like kind of like a, you know, like someone saying, hey, you know, your greatest life's ambition. Would you want to do that? um I said, yeah, let's do it. and Wow.
Speaker: I mean, essentially, like those short stories provided a framework, ah but they had been hastily dashed out and the characters were pretty thin at that point. ah Then with Maria's help, I kind of like slowed down really developed the universe, the characters and all that. And um that that took ah another you know six months to a year to like revise it and get it into an awesome shape before he went out to publishers. So it's been a journey, but ah yeah. So I guess it all started like a few years ago and now we're finally out.
Speaker: Okay. That's so interesting. So you, when you were initially writing it, you never really had any, there wasn't really an intention for it to become a novel or for it to kind of all get put together.
Speaker: i think, you know, when I was writing these Reddit stories, I was just, like you know Basically what had happened is I'd been a video game writer for like 20 years and i had my list of stories I'd want to write if I ever got the time.
Speaker: and And then I kind of like left the job to be a full-time dad and... I had a little time each day to write provided by my kind wife. while We watched the kids. And ah yeah, just I was just like burning through the list of ideas and just having so much fun. And and I was just giving myself permission to fail, i guess. Like I, a lot of those, you know, I think I wrote maybe,
Speaker: 60 stories over the course of 90 days and not everyone was like a winner, but, but you know, I just like had a, it was just having so much fun and just like, I basically just write it and post it to the internet like that same day. And, uh,
Speaker: and not worry so much about polishing everything. Because so much of my game writing position had been polishing, and and I just wanted a break from that. So yeah, this is just like, it started as just this kind of like creative vomit. And and then, um and I think what also happened is, yeah, wrote 60 stories, and this is the one that people really, really responded to and um ah turned into something bigger.
Speaker: Okay. And mariaia Maria happened to find this literally through the subreddit. She didn't, you didn't like post this anywhere else. It was only on there. It was just on Reddit. It was, like I said, it was having kind of a viral moment. So a lot of years.
Speaker: ah Yeah. She just threw my Reddit account. She sent me a message like, Oh, what do you want to, we're going to talk and, and, you know, ah make this something more. and i I said, yes.
Speaker: Okay. And that was, did we, do you say that was in 2023? I think that 2023. Yeah. 2023. Okay. Well that, cause was going to say that would be, i would, wouldn't be as surprised if it happened now in the wake of things like the backrooms and obsession being these like massive hits early, and early in the year. But sounds like you were ahead of the curve with this.
Speaker: Well, I, who knows, maybe I'm part of the curve. Cause those, those movies probably got picked up three years ago also, you know, and I just see yeah here in 2026. So, so maybe ah you know, during that period, people were scouring the internet, trying to find the next big thing. ah And I, I hope we're all, you know, ah still, ah I guess like, I hope the next generation is there on Reddit right now being discovered and it just keeps rolling.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. um Absolutely agree with that. In terms of the, when you're writing the book itself, so this kind of, was this the first time you'd written a novel? Because it sounds like you would, you you kind of pieced together all these short stories or like serialized episodes and that became your plan.
Speaker: Had you written a novel before? Yes. ah So, so I, like for my video game writing job, for example, I wrote, I sort of like ghost wrote a couple of ah spinoff novels for the game. Those were like,
Speaker: Very different. They're sort of like very innocent middle grade novels sure based on is that game was called Surviving High School. And um so that that that was a cool experience. And then ah I'd also just written,
Speaker: i think three or four novels that are sitting in the drawer never to see the light of day. yeah And um and then i had one produced screenplay, which I think that process taught me a lot about writing structure. So that that was helpful when when we were turning this these stories into a book, um having those kind of like that structural knowledge was very helpful.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. see But you did have some experience going into this of writing a full length novel. Is this a is this a one book contract? It's a two book contract. And second book is, is not a sequel, but it's ah it's a, another horror book and it's coming out next August.
Speaker: Okay. So you're, you're obviously well underway with that. I'm in, yeah, final editorial on that, and ah that'll be super exciting. um And yeah, like I said, not not a direct sequel, but if if you liked House that Eats the Dead, ah this next one I think has been announced now, i'm at least by Macmillan, it's called Sleepers in the Lake. And yeah,
Speaker: I think if you like Task the Eat the Dead, you'll like that one too. Okay, great. um And when in terms of the process for that, I know that a lot of people, especially with like, if you get two book contract or something that, after working with a ah traditional publisher and going through all of those systems and those kinds of various different stages you have to go through, has that affected your process as in like this second book that you're writing? Are are you writing it in quite a different way to your first one?
Speaker: Hmm. I think the second one, uh, Oh man, I, I had a, I thought what I had was a good outline and then it's actually, uh, it's taken a lot more revision than I anticipated. Um, I had to Oh, blow up the last whole third of the book and we decided the villain was all wrong and all, all these things. I mean, you can, you can do a lot of work, um, outlining and brainstorming and,
Speaker: And you think you got something ironclad and you can still walk into a landmine. And that's what happened in this case. But I will say like after all these revisions, I feel really great about that book. And, and um it's just, you know, like ah I know how to put it. I have four kids and each birth was a little different, yeah,
Speaker: whether Whether the labor took 10 hours or 15 minutes, each kid is great. It's just the process can be very different for each one. Yes, absolutely. And that is not the first time i have heard books referred to as babies and children. So that it holds up, that that comparison. Yeah, like that's... but Because like, you know, i've I've been talking about this book quite a bit. And like, i think ah I think when I've talked about past projects, probably before I had kids, I'd be a little... ah
Speaker: Oh, I don't know. like, it was hard for me to promote myself, I guess. Now being a dad, i just see these books as my kids. And I'm like, just like you would be so excited talking about your kid and like, yeah, this kid is so great. Like, I'm like, yeah, this book is amazing. You got to check it out. And it's that it's not because I've like, detached it from ego about like, I created it or anything like is more just like an object now that i love and want to tell everyone about.
Speaker: That's great. That's a very healthy way of of of looking at it. um And you mentioned you mentioned the screenplay. I didn't want to talk about that because I'm thinking that that was, ah you entered that into the Netflix Find Your Voice Award. I think in the first year that they did that award, you won.
Speaker: Yeah, that was that was like a really cool experience. that one of those Basically, one of those drawer novels I shared with a friend of mine who is at USC Film School. um And he he really liked it. And we kind of um were developing it as like a short that would be his thesis. And then he basically, like at some point, was like, Max, we could make this a whole feature. And we we wrote the screenplay. and ah And then he ended in this contest. And yeah It is a, oh man. Basically they, they picked our ah screenplay to be made into a trailer. My partner made a trailer. Then everyone everyone was like voting on this for a long time.
Speaker: And ah we, we won the vote. And then, yeah, we, he directed the movie and it was a super cool experience, but it did feel kind of crazy and magical. And this was, I was still in my early twenties at that point and it was literally the first screenplay I'd ever written. So it all just felt like a gift.
Speaker: It sounds kind of surreal where just kind of this incredible thing happening out of something that you thought was just a kind of ah a fun side project. Uh, yeah. And then I will say that at some point it got like very real and we realized we were way in over or I realized I way in over my head and people were like, Oh, well ah you don't have a break into act two. And I, I was kind of like, Oh, what's an act two. So, you know, then I had to really educate myself very quickly on screenwriting conventions. And, um, and I mean, this was after we'd won the contest, but, uh, they,
Speaker: and yeah you you know, I think Hollywood is pretty infamous for executives giving a lot of notes and this is no exception. We had like a ton of, we must have gone through 50 revisions um on that screenplay. Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. And are you still writing screenplays? Is that still something that you're, you're dabbling in? Right now I'm just really focused on books. Like I, I, I had so much fun writing the house that eats the dead and, uh, sleepers in the lake and I've the next one drafted too. So, uh, I'm just putting my energy there and, i i I'd be super excited to see these adapted in the films, but it'd probably be a professional screenwriter doing it. Not me.
Speaker: Okay. You, you, so you wouldn't, you'd want to be sort of hands off if that, if, if, you know, if you were lucky enough for that to happen. I guess like I would do whatever, whatever was asked to to make it happen. And I, cause I do have those skills. like I could probably do the adaptation, but, ah but if, um but yeah, no, I would be equally happy to see someone, someone else's take. But one cool thing with like the, that movie experience was, you know, at some point I handed it off to my partner who is the director you know,
Speaker: Seeing the final film is like basically like you you see this world you conceived of in your imagination suddenly brought to life. And this in in this case, I'd had to do ah none of the work of the actual shooting of it or assembling the actors. or So it was it was cool to be able to have a collaborator just do that. And I got to experience this moment of like my vision just being there on screen.
Speaker: um ah with And like, I hadn't done it. Someone else had done it. Okay. So you kind of would like that almost to like not be involved so that when you see it, you're kind of like, wow. Cause you, you don't see all of the inner workings of how it was put together.
Speaker: Yeah. It it was a kind of an amazing experience. I would, yeah like I said, I mean, I think when, I feel like to get things made, you just have to say yes a lot. Like, and so if someone said, okay, we'll do it, but write the screenplay, I would say yes. And if they said, oh, we'll do it, but you can't touch the screenplay, I would say yes. Okay.
Speaker: So you're open to it either way, no no matter what happens. I think, yeah. lately I think especially, you know, coming from the gaming world where it's just like, um, I think just the ego got beaten out of me over like a long time.
Speaker: And like, I, at some point you just have to have the attitude of like, we just want this to get done and like, how did it really come out? So many games like get canceled halfway through or like never see the light of day. And like, you, you can't,
Speaker: if you're going to be an artist who's precious with changing a word or or like, um yeah like it's just, it's just not going to fly there. So like, I think I learned to be collaborative and just, you know, do, do whatever it takes to kind of get the project across the finish line and actually have it come out.
Speaker: Sure. Sure. Yeah. um Yeah. I think the authors I've spoken to, some, some authors are like super keen to, it also depends on the, ah how much cashier you have, how much weight you have as an author, you know, there are some authors can say, we'll get whatever they want because of how, you know, big a brand they are. And then if you're a newer author, then you probably won't have as much to, to, to ah as much weight to throw around in that regard.
Speaker: I think that's probably true. And I mean, the evidence is on the shelf when you look at some of those series where the first one is like a nice slim volume and the fifth one is ah like three times as long. You're like, okay, that's someone who earned some clout and got to do what they wanted to do.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you you don't get, you don't kind of get to do that thousand page brick as like a rookie novelist. No, exactly. um Before we head over to the cabin, I did want to just ask ah one little one question, a sort of an advice question. um You've obviously racked up ah quite a lot of experience over the years across different parts of professional writing. Are there any useful things that you know now that you wished you'd known when you first started?
Speaker: Um, gosh, I mean, I think some some of it is just that you do have to kind of take the journey. um But, ah you know, in terms of like, if you want to be in well, any any writing medium, I think, you know, be kind and be, be like, listen to advice. Like, I think... um i Especially like when I when i was ah working in games, I actually employed like 30 or 40 writers on my team by the end of that journey.
Speaker: And, um you know, I feel like ah people who wanted to learn and and wanted to get better did so. and And then people who had that attitude of like, oh, I'm ah i'm an artist and everything I've done is perfect. ah they They didn't last as long and and I don't think had as strong of careers.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. So just be, be kind to people and and make, cause also like making connections within them writing is, is, uh, is so important. I think you never know who's going to be like there in the future to to kind of help you out when you, when you need someone, even if it's just someone to talk to about what's going on with you and publishing and things.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. And like, yeah, because, you know, you go to your next company and you think, who do you who do I want to hire now that I have this spot? And it's going to be people who are easy to work with and then had great ideas. And, oh, you know, like in this, guess it's it's also like enthusiasm. but when ah when we brainstormed, we had this.
Speaker: kind of rule where you can't just be Dr. No. Like Dr. No is the person who in the brainstorm shoots down every idea. ah Like the rule is like you you have to be supplying some ideas too. So if you're like, well, I don't think that quite works, but here's something we could do. That's a lot better than just being like, no, that doesn't work. Like we need that enthusiasm and that energy of almost like When you're improv-ing, I guess you're supposed to say yes to everything. It can't quite be that because you do need to squash some bad ideas, but ah you need to be able to pivot in and supply other ideas to replace the ones you're killing.
Speaker: Yeah, which I think is is just as true as an author when you sign with a publisher and you have to work with an editor on all the levels because it's like, there are things that are going to be highlighted in your book. And if you really want to, you can put your foot down and say, no, I i don't want to change that. But I think, like you said, it's going to, you know...
Speaker: the way how how enthusiastic and how open you are to working with an editor is going to affect whether you know they're going to think about that when they come to like re re-sign you for another contract or something like oh absolutely yeah i mean i i really try i mean i assume if an editor took the time to stop and give a note that there's a reason and and like yeah it's you know ah it means at least something isn't working and like, it doesn't always mean that they have the, the exact right idea of how to change it, but it means something probably needs to change. um
Speaker: And, ah and someone took the time to stop and give you that note. So you should probably take it. but I mean, that said, like, There's probably every once in a while I'll say, well, there's actually a really good reason we need to have this here. And and yes. Yeah. And you can't just be like a total pushover and just take every note sight unseen.
Speaker: Yeah, i agree. it's It's about finding a balance. And i think some editors are, you know, I've spoken to a few editors on this podcast and they, it they, they like it. If an author can, it puts their foot down and then explains and justifies why the thing shouldn't change or like should be the way that they had and initially. and And if they can explain it, they're like, okay, great. Let's make sure that that comes through in the novel and we will keep it as it is.
Speaker: Yeah, then it becomes a conversation. It's like, kind of exactly oh, like here's what I'm trying to accomplish here. Maybe, why do you think it's not working? And then you you know you can go from there and go back and forth and figure it out. Yeah, yeah. there's that thing that I've heard, ah some sort of author wisdom that when you get feedback, the the people giving the feedback are always correct in terms of there being an issue. They're not necessarily correct of how to fix it.
Speaker: Right, yeah. I mean, if they knew all the perfect things to do, they would be the author. yes your Your job is to take that feedback and then be the author and and ah make make it better.
Speaker: Yes, yeah, absolutely. And that brings us to the point in the episode where I ask you, Max, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
Speaker: Oh, yeah. this this I'm going to suggest, if anyone is ever in that situation, cool one to bring, ah but it might drive you insane, would be House of Leaves by daniel Mark Danielewski. This is such a cool horror book where it's like... um It's almost got notes of like Nabokov, like something like like a pale fire or something where there's all these like references within the text and you've got to go to like a footnote and there's a footnote within the footnote. And you're just kind of like kind of like charging all over the book. And then like, is so there's this sort of disorientation he plays with where you're,
Speaker: going to different spots, like, and you've got like four bookmarks going to like remember your spot. ah But there's also just like a lot of genuinely terrifying bits.
Speaker: um And because you're so disoriented, I think the horror hits even harder. It's also like a nice, fairly thick book that, ah you know, if you had all day to read, you could um really get lost in there. So so I think that's, that would be, but you know, if you're alone, you might really terrify yourself. So you gotta be ready to go down that dark path. Okay, great. Yeah. I do think the, the, the, the cozy cabin is very well suited for horror as well.
Speaker: Right. yeah Yeah. I mean, as night fell, you might start rethinking your decision to pick up that book. Wish you'd brought a rom-com or something. Right, right. Awesome. but That's a great choice. And it's always I always like a book that sort of asks a little bit extra of you. Then you're not simply reading this book. There's a little bit more going on. um So that's cool. And a great addition to The to the Cabin.
Speaker: um Next up, we are going to go back a bit and talk about lots of the things that we've already touched on. You know, Max's writing career, working in games, the spinoff novels, more about the Reddit. and That will all be available in the extended episode, which you can find at patreon.com forward slash right and wrong.
Speaker: if if they read If they lay down $20 for my novel and hate it, I guess I do feel a little bad. It's like I've taken their money. Well, at least at least books are nice pieces of you know pieces of decoration that will be somewhere nice in their house. so Oh, it's got a beautiful cover. So yeah, exactly at least you have a nice, yeah, ah something to put out. Exactly, exactly. um And that actually brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you so much, Max, for coming on and chatting with me, telling us all about your your novel. The House That Eats the Dead, which is out right now. Anyone listening, you can find that in all the usual places. It's been so great hearing you chat about your your writing adventures across all the different mediums, and like games and short stories and Reddit. um Yeah, it's it's been so much fun. Thank you so much.
Speaker: Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Max is doing, you can find him on Instagram at maxdoti1. He has a website, maxdoti.com. Or if you want to check out all of his short stories and stalk him and lurk on Reddit, his username on Reddit is scarymax with two Xs.
Speaker: To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again, Max. And thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.
