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Episode 50: Dealing with Difficult Clients
153 Plays5 years ago
Once in a while we work with difficult clients.
It happens—even after years of being in business and developing different ways to screen prospective clients.
Chances are you’ll work with a difficult client, too. Maybe that’s why you’re here in the first place. You’re already “in it” and you’re looking for ways to deal with it.
Or maybe you’re looking to avoid this experience altogether.
We’re covering both of these things in this episode:
Part 1: When It’s Already Too Late – What to do when you’re in the midst of it.
Part 2: How to Prevent it from Happening Again – Tips for screening clients so you’re working with the right clients.
Here are a few ways to deal with difficult client situations when you’re in the midst of one.
Access the show notes at
Read the full post: Part 1 | Part 2
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:06
Speaker
I think it's just important to keep your cool and be kind and thoughtful and give people the benefit without, but then also just protect your business boundaries and know that there's some things you just can't say yes to.
Podcast Introduction and Host Welcome
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
00:00:33
Speaker
Have you ever
Dealing with Difficult Clients
00:00:34
Speaker
dealt with a difficult client situation or maybe you're currently in a tough spot right now and you're wondering if you'll ever get through it? Difficult client situations are bound to happen in business and I've never met a business owner who hasn't experienced one. In today's episode, Vanessa and I are chatting through how to deal with such situations and what you can do to prevent them in the future. This episode is based on a two part blog series titled how to deal with difficult clients, which you can find on our blog.
00:01:00
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at davianchrista.com for the resources we mentioned during the episode, and I'd like to hear from you about what kind of content you'd like to see on the Brands That Book podcast as we move forward. I'd also like to know what episodes have you enjoyed most so far and why. To leave your feedback, head on over to the Davian Christo Facebook page and send us a message.
Personal Insights and Moving Experiences
00:01:19
Speaker
Now, on to the episode.
00:01:24
Speaker
Vanessa, welcome back. You're all the way in Birmingham, right? I am. I'm enjoying the sauce. Sweet tea, biscuits. Trying to find a new home? Yeah, house shopping. Really, honestly, just trying to get to know the area and make a place of Birmingham, and so we're excited.
00:01:40
Speaker
Awesome. Any luck so far? Yeah, you know, so I'm a daughter of an engineer. So I look at every house with what is wrong with this place versus like, what do I like about it, which is good and bad. It makes it easy for me to cross things off the list. But I think we'll find something eventually. It just may not be during this visit. Sure, sure. Yeah, no reason to rush it, especially if that's where you guys are going to be for a while.
00:02:03
Speaker
I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. Good deal. And you guys have been dealing with all kinds of moves, things like that too, huh? Yeah, finally, finally. So we sold our house and we're making our way down to Lexington, Virginia. That move probably won't happen for the next year, but it's exciting to be working towards that.
00:02:20
Speaker
So yeah, lots of stuff coming up. We're excited to dive into the home building process. Makes us a little nervous for sure. But again, excited just
Gender Perspectives on Client Challenges
00:02:29
Speaker
to be there. But today, what we're talking about is dealing with difficult clients. And so this is a tough subject, just as dealing with difficult clients is. And we were talking a little bit about this before the show started, but how women and men might approach this topic a little differently. So I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on this. So should we dive in?
00:02:50
Speaker
Yeah, so I think one of the biggest questions to ask is what makes difficult clients difficult? So how do you define difficult and what's been your experience with that?
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it really comes down to one of two things. I think the first is that the client just doesn't have realistic expectations. And I think that's a little bit on the service provider as well, because ultimately, I think it's up to us as businesses to set those expectations. But there's some mismatch. I think one reason that a client might be difficult is there's some mismatch in their expectations and the expectations you set before them.
00:03:27
Speaker
I think the second thing is that clients don't understand their responsibilities. I think in pretty much any project that I can think of at least.
00:03:38
Speaker
clients have some sort of responsibility, even for you in Pinterest management. Our responsibility is to come up with new content, come up with fresh pins for you to use. And if we didn't do that, then all of a sudden your job would become a lot more difficult because you'd be dealing with, well, no content, and then maybe you wouldn't be able to get us the results that you've been getting us. Do you know
Communication and Expectations in Client Relationships
00:04:04
Speaker
what I'm saying?
00:04:04
Speaker
Oh, no, it's really difficult to because if you're waiting and literally foot tapping for people to deliver you content and they expect results, you want to turn around and say, well, hey, really, I think this is your problem. But honestly, that can be a really difficult. I think for you as a web designer, you guys have to deal with I guess the back and forth of people wanting a tweak and a little a little update here. And I imagine you have to be able to say, hey, like we we don't have an unlimited amount of edits. Like we have to kind of get this down. And I don't know.
00:04:34
Speaker
two or three revisions. So I think for you guys, you're trying to take something super visual in their head and bring it to life. So that could be challenging.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah, we definitely see this in website design as well. Collecting content isn't always an issue, but sometimes is an issue. I think that going into a website design project, and we're actually going to be talking about this shortly as well in a different episode, there's this misperception that the website designer is going to come up with all your content, right? And that's not really how a website design project goes.
00:05:06
Speaker
So we definitely see that in the website design world. But then also, when it comes to website design, anybody who's built a house is probably, or maybe has experiences as well. Once the builders start, it's hard to go back and change things because it requires tearing stuff down. Website design, I think, is really similar in that way.
00:05:28
Speaker
You know, once you start building the structure of your website, if you want to make big changes to your website, it often results, you know, tearing things down, not just on maybe that page, but restructuring other pages as well. So, you know, we've had to learn as business owners, how to set those expectations, how to communicate effectively with clients so that they understand exactly what they're getting themselves into, where they are in their stage of the project as well.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. Just thinking about like the blueprint that they know where you're headed next so that you don't have to reverse the work. That makes a lot of sense. So tell me like when you get into a difficult situation with a client, I know there's got to be this time, this moment, maybe you and Christa say, okay, how are we going to deal with this? And what do you tell each other as you have to get ready to go back to the client and prepare them for maybe some bad news?
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, so again, I can't emphasize enough how difficult these situations can be, just emotionally especially. I mean, a lot of us, and I think a lot of people who listen to this podcast, there's a certain art to the service that they're providing. So it can be really difficult when maybe a client isn't happy with the work that you've provided them so far because we tend to hold that work over our heart. So when people are maybe critiquing that work, it feels like they're critiquing us personally.
00:06:49
Speaker
It can just be a really emotionally draining situation when you're dealing with difficult clients, but it's important to remember that it's going to be okay and that everybody I know, I haven't met and I've interviewed some really talented people on this show especially, but nobody I've ever met has said, yeah, I've just never been in a difficult client situation before.
00:07:13
Speaker
I think the first thing to remember is that it's OK. I think it's a part of doing business is going to be dealing with some difficult clients or or dealing with difficult situations. So starting there and then moving from moving from that place instead of reacting out of a place of fear. You know, and I think when you do that, when you react out of a place of fear or anger, you don't remain above reproach. Right. You know, it's important not to do anything out of frustration, but to be patient and kind. That does not mean to be a pushover.
00:07:43
Speaker
but to be patient and kind when dealing with difficult clients, even if that is being stern about, hey, these are the parameters of the project and this is what we have to stick to.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, being stern is really difficult. I mean, I know everyone has different personalities. And so obviously, like this could be a male-female thing. But for me, that would be so challenging for me. Even just enforcing the contract is difficult because I want to be accommodating. I want people to have a good experience with me and to be able to refer me with that. So I think that that's really tricky. And one of my favorite quotes, even just thinking about how I would respond to a difficult client situation is,
00:08:21
Speaker
At the end of the day, people won't remember what you said or did, but they will remember how you made them feel. I think even if people are treating you poorly, it's still so important that what you say, our moms always said, what you say matters. I just hold to that. Even if I'm dealing with someone who's difficult, I really have to work hard on my words and avoiding being defensive. If that's all you can do, I think it's really valuable when you're dealing with a client like that.
00:08:49
Speaker
Absolutely. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about your perspective on maybe how you would deal or some of the frustrations that you have in dealing with difficult clients.
Effective Client Interaction Techniques
00:08:56
Speaker
One thing that I've learned actually just this past weekend, we started talking about our Enneagram numbers. And so I've explored the Myers break before, but this is my first time exploring the Enneagram. One thing that we kind of collectively decided as a group was that I am an eight, which I guess is the challenger.
00:09:14
Speaker
and i don't mind conference it's not i mean i don't love confrontation i'm not looking for you know opportunities to confront people or anything like that but doesn't really bother me right like i don't i'm okay with being in situations what where i have to confront something
00:09:30
Speaker
So for me, and even the blog posts that I've written about this subject, I wonder if my bias has come into place. So for instance, I think it's best to have tough conversations in person or over the phone, certainly not via text message. And even trying to get away from email if that's been the primary point of communication in your relationship so far, just because obviously something's
00:09:54
Speaker
There's something missing there, you know, if it is a communication issue. So trying to get on the phone with somebody. But I know that for some people, that might be a really scary thing to do to meet in person or to jump on the phone.
00:10:07
Speaker
So I think I'm pretty much the opposite of an eight and I hate confrontation. When I have difficult situations, I'm the type of person, even just in my impersonal life, who moles over and worries. And so for me, this is a real challenge for me. I don't even really know if my diagram is right, but I think I'm a three. I have a lot of achiever mentalities, but I'm also, there's another quiz I love. It's called Strength Finders. I don't know if you've heard of that.
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really high on relators. So relating well with people is super important to me. I put a lot of currency into that. So I hate this. I will say I've never had a difficult client that's been really rude and unkind to me. Most of my difficulties come from those things you touched on earlier, it's just getting people to deliver in time to be able to keep their timeline moving forward. And then also just like people being I would say more just
00:10:54
Speaker
being careless about paying invoices on time. But even in those, as I'm crafting those emails, I give them the benefit of the doubt. And so that's really important to me, I think, when you're dealing with people, is to give them the benefit of the doubt. So I've never been harassed, thankfully, by a client. And I think I would probably have to have my husband craft that email. I totally had to go to him a couple times. So this could be a male-female thing. I wonder,
00:11:22
Speaker
if eights are more commonly men. So he might be an Enneagram expert to find out.
00:11:28
Speaker
You know, there's a book that we're kind of reading out of to figure this stuff out and I want to get it. I want to say it was something like, and I'll put it in the show notes. I'll track down the name of the book and then I'll put the actual name in the show notes. But I think off the top of my head, it was something like the magic of the Enneagram or something like that. It was a pretty thick book, but it was really interesting. I've never paid much attention to the Enneagram, but my interest was peak this past past week. So I'll have to, you know, I'm going to track down that book. I'm going to do a little bit more reading. Maybe that'll be a future episode. I know we've already done one on personalities, but that'd be fun to explore more.
00:11:56
Speaker
Can you tell me what Krista was or what she's leaning towards? You know, I can't remember off the top of my head. Okay. I want to say, I want to say it was a one. All I remember her and Tyler Harrington. Tyler's been another guest on the show. Tyler, her and Tyler Harrington are in the same number. I think it's a one. And they, you know, we always joke around like they're the same person. But that's that's as far as I can remember. Okay, yeah. Well, what is like the I don't want to like pinhole her but is like the perfectionist. And so I kind of have one tendencies as well. So I get that as well. Like,
00:12:26
Speaker
You work really hard, you're diligent, you're disciplined, and that does sound a lot like Krista. She is. Most productive person I know. But anyways, getting back to this first tip for dealing with difficult situations. Again, the way I've broken up these blog posts, and I'll reference those in the show notes as well, is difficult situations when you're already in them and then preventing difficult situations. We're talking about difficult situations when you're already in them.
00:12:49
Speaker
Again, going back to that first tip, which is get off an email and then actually try to talk with that person. Obviously, face-to-face isn't always possible and maybe mostly isn't possible for people. But I think if you can get on a video call, that's great. If not, get on a phone call. I think it's a lot easier.
00:13:08
Speaker
for things to get out of hand when you're just writing, when there's a computer screen and a lot of space in between you. But when you're actually talking to that person, I think it's a lot easier, one, to keep things civil and then to really understand where people are coming from.
00:13:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I kind of wonder if that could go bad too, because like I mentioned, it depends on the type of person you are. If you're really reactionary, you might write a really strong email. Sure. But I wonder if that same personality could come. Have you ever been harassed? Like even in your teaching background, you ever had a parent like come at you really strongly?
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, in my teaching background, that mostly happened, I found over email. And actually, not to jump, you know, one thing, and this is my favorite tip, it's all just kind of jump there. One of my favorite questions to ask people is, hey, how can we resolve this? You know, like, how can we fix the issue? What would make this right? And people are a lot more not always, okay, so this, you know, anything can backfire, as can this question, but
00:14:07
Speaker
people are generally more balanced in their response than you think they would be. We've never had anybody say, well, you can make this right by doing the work for free. That kind of stuff doesn't happen, but that's something that I learned in my teaching days was because I would sometimes deal with parents that were just
00:14:27
Speaker
You know, I mean, I read about something or they generally had to do with grades at the very end of the semester, a kid who had been maybe failing the entire time and all of a sudden, it's the last day of school and they want enough work to make up so they can pass the class or whatever. And just simply asking, okay, how can we resolve this issue?
00:14:46
Speaker
And I think what it does is it forces people to process what's going on, you know, and in that processing, I think more times than not, they come to realize that maybe they have some responsibility in that situation or more so than maybe they they're acting like they do. So I think that's a great question to be able to ask, but especially on the phone, you know, so that you can hear people verbally process it.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think it gives them a moment to pause and to show that you care about what they have to say and that they're feeling heard. So you sound like you're really good at negotiating people out of a bad place. But what do you do, though, if you're in a situation where they're asking for too much and you just can't deliver and you guys decide to part ways? What's the best way that you've handled that in the past?
00:15:31
Speaker
Yeah. So I think standing on a contract, if you have a good contract, I think all of a sudden, a lot of this anxiety is just going to melt away. And so I can't emphasize enough investing in a good contract. A lot of our contracts come from Christina Square as the contract shop. We've also used Paige Griffith's stuff as well. Both Paige and Christina have been guests on the podcast. I'll link to their respective resources. But having a contract that
00:15:57
Speaker
you've developed for your business based on your experiences, I think really helps because you can simply go back to the contract and say, Hey, listen, this is exactly what's outlined in the contract. And, you know, it is what it is. This is what you and I have agreed to at the start of this project. And generally, you know, if things don't work out, there is kind of an out clause.
00:16:15
Speaker
There's some way that the project can be canceled or doesn't have to move forward. Obviously, we want to salvage the relationship as much as possible. So I wouldn't say just go to the contract and not be willing to negotiate at all. But you shouldn't have to do a ton of work that you didn't agree to for free. So we have clauses in our contract. We have a place where the scope of the service is outlined and then clauses in our contract that really dictate, one, how changes are to be approached.
00:16:43
Speaker
how substance changes are supposed to be approached. And then if we can't agree on any of that, then a way to part ways. Yeah. So you do have to avoid that scope creep. And have you ever had situations where they wanted to increase the scope and you're like, yeah, that's great. It's going to cost X amount more.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yes, we've had that situation before, and sometimes people have gotten upset about that, but it just is what it is. And again, going back to something like website design, if you decide you want to add a shop to your website, and that previously wasn't part of the scope, well, adding the e-commerce aspect to your website, that's a huge... I think that can be a big time socket from a development standpoint, so you can't just... It's not just adding a page.
00:17:27
Speaker
So, you know, people like if that's you, if you're in that situation, if somebody comes to you and they're at, you know, I think this is tough for wedding photographers who in person, you're at a wedding and they're like, can you just stay for one more hour? You know, if that if how you deal with that is an outline in your contract, that can be a really tricky situation.
00:17:44
Speaker
So having something in your contract that people understand in advance, I think really helps navigate those situations. And if you don't have a contract in place, again, I would get one right
Handling Family Interference in Client Relations
00:17:56
Speaker
away. And then I would make sure that think through some of the difficult situations you've been in, and then go back to your contract and figure out how those difficult situations could have been resolved using your contract.
00:18:07
Speaker
One of the things I thought of I've seen in these wedding photographer groups is you'll have bride and groom or bride sign the contract, but then you'll have mother-in-law or mother of the groom who are disappointed that maybe you didn't get enough pictures of their side of the family and they're the ones coming back and criticizing you. So what have you guys done or what advice would you have for someone in that situation?
00:18:27
Speaker
Yeah, so I do want to say that I'm not a lawyer. So as far as like specific contract issues go, I can't speak to that. You need to go find a lawyer to answer those questions. But we have, you know, back when we were shooting, especially, we had that happen occasionally, you know, where a family member would reach out and be like, Hey, did you get this photo? Or why didn't you get this photo? And what we used to do is we used to copy our
00:18:47
Speaker
bride on the response and say or reach out to the bride directly and just say hey we're getting these messages from maybe your mom or so and so is mom and this is what's going on nine times out of ten i actually think every single time and this didn't happen often but the bride would generally respond and just say i'm so sorry you know i'm gonna handle this and then all of a sudden i never got it you know we never got an email again so
00:19:11
Speaker
I think filling in your actual clients on what's going on and explaining to them, you know, what maybe why you didn't get that shot or just filling them in on the situation helps a lot.
Recognizing and Preventing Difficult Client Situations
00:19:21
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so we've talked a lot about having those difficult clients, but I think that the more important factor is how do we prevent them. So let's talk a little bit about like your favorite tips for preventing being and dealing with those difficult clients.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I do want to mention before we go on to preventing them, just that sometimes, if you can spot the warning signs early on in the relationship, it might be a more profitable decision just to have that tough conversation about going your separate ways, dropping the client.
00:19:51
Speaker
I guess this goes back, this is a good segue actually into talking about how to prevent difficult client situations. One thing that you might do, and this comes with experience, so unfortunately a lot of this comes with actually going through the experience, which kind of sucks, but is writing down the tough situations that you've been in, or trying to imagine, or if you haven't experienced any tough situations, asking others who may have experienced tough situations, and writing those down and creating a list of warning signs.
00:20:21
Speaker
you know, and looking back and say, okay, when could I have identified that this might have been an issue? And some stuff just isn't, you know, foreseeable. But if early on in the process, you're starting to get the sense that this project is going to be a headache, and maybe you're only a month into a contract or a project that's going to last,
00:20:38
Speaker
nine months to a year, it might just be best to say, hey, listen, I don't think we're a good fit for each other. And if that's the case, if it's really early on, you might even be able to give that person a refund because they actually haven't taken up any of your time, but it's better to have that conversation early on than 10 months into a 12-month project.
00:21:00
Speaker
Because at least early on that person can make a decision, okay, you know, you're right, I should go find somebody else for this. Or they might feel like, oh, wow, you know, I've been doing something. I'm so sorry for the way I've acted, you know, and I'll make sure that, you know, we're on the same page going forward.
00:21:16
Speaker
I have a lot of difficulty because I feel like when and I don't think it's wrong. I think you're totally right. But when I say we aren't a great fit, I feel like what I'm communicating is I'm too good for you or you aren't good enough for me, especially in the early client process. And so I haven't quite figured out a way to communicate that without sounding like I don't want to give you my time or
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah, like, like communicating, you're really difficult. So I really struggle with this language. So I think it's pretty much standard across the creative industry. But I struggle and it's probably personality of communicating that. So I probably just need to like copy and paste it and do it and get over it. Yeah, you know, I mean, you definitely want to like you said in the beginning of this episode, how you make people feel is important. And it's not just what you say, but it's how you say it. And you don't want to make people feel like
00:22:03
Speaker
you're too good for them or something like that. I think the reality of the situation though is that we're not, as business owners, we're not a good fit for anybody who wants our service. That's simply what we would explain in the email. We've had discovery calls with people who really want to work with us, but we say, hey, listen, just based on what you're looking for and your expectations, we're probably not the best fit for you.
00:22:28
Speaker
If you want to jump on a phone call three times a week to discuss your project, we're probably not the best fit for you. That doesn't mean we don't want to get on the phone with you, but a lot of our communication is going to happen over email because it's going to keep us organized. We have other client projects going on as well, so we can't just be jumping on the phone every minute, every day.
00:22:51
Speaker
I think people respect that on some level, even early on in the project. We've had that happen where we've told people that and we've decided to part ways. You know what? It's a lot better than committing to it for another eight months and everybody being miserable at the end of the project.
00:23:07
Speaker
I so agree. It's like being in a long-term relationship, like a romantic relationship where you know it's not going anywhere. Yeah. And so instead of torturing yourself for who knows how long, just ripping the band-aid off early. And you know what? We've never had a situation where we've done that and then somebody's gone out and
00:23:26
Speaker
you know it said nasty things about us or whatever you know i generally if you take care of that early in the process you know it's tough for people because you know people wanted to get going they have timelines and things like that but in the long run it's better and.
00:23:41
Speaker
is certainly better than, again, getting to the end of the project where there's really no going back. And that person might not have the funds then to end that project and go hire somebody else to do it. So I think it's just better to have that tough conversation once. Really, I guess a person, this again comes from teaching. Somebody told me it's better to have a tough conversation once than to have that same tough conversation a dozen times over the course of 12 months
00:24:08
Speaker
because you just didn't rip the band-aid off early, if that makes sense. That's true. One of the episodes that helped me figure out, it's Abby of Abby Grace Photography. She used a lot of client templates. I love her. I was talking to her at a conference last year at Creative at Heart and about a situation going on. She said that she actually loves to jump on and consult and help people craft the email for difficult client situations.
00:24:34
Speaker
I don't know what episode that is, but it could be really helpful to listen to even just setting those expectations early on for those clients and what to expect in working with you.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, I'll link to it in the show notes. It's I think the episode released early January 2019. Called the gentle no, right? That's right. And she has even a difficult client email template package that she sells. So definitely worth looking into if you feel like, you know, if you're in the same boat as you where you just don't like the whole confrontation thing, and you want some tried and true templates to deal with such situations.
00:25:07
Speaker
Who does? Except for maybe you, Davey, based on your question. The thing is, I don't like it. It stresses me out in all of that. I just don't have a problem. I won't put off the conversation. If we're having an issue, I'd rather just jump on the phone, talk about it, deal with it, and then move on. Do you know what I'm saying? I guess that aspect of things just doesn't stress me out as much.
00:25:28
Speaker
So what are your warning signs? You talked about you have a list and to like use it as you're kind of going through a maybe discovery call. So what would you say would be some good red flags to look out for? Yeah, so what we do both in the website design, it's a little bit different. But when we were wedding photographers, we'd send over a list of qualifying questions.
00:25:46
Speaker
We didn't frame them as qualifying questions. We just framed it as, hey, could you answer these questions so we can get to know a little bit more about you and what you have in mind for your wedding day? But these qualifying questions often allowed us to understand whether this person would be a good fit or not. On the wedding photography side, one of those questions was simply, what photos are most important to you on your wedding day?
00:26:10
Speaker
Well, somebody who said, we don't want any post photos, you know, the reception photos are the most important for us. We want everything to be candid. Well, we're not the best fit for that person. And it was okay just telling people that like, hey, you know, if you hire us, you're going to get the photos that you see on our website. They're a pretty good indication of what kind of photos you're going to get. Many of these are post. We hope they don't look super post.
00:26:34
Speaker
And so just explaining that to people, they often respect that because why spend at least $7,000 on us for a photographer who isn't going to give you the photos that you want? So coming up with some sort of qualifying questions, I think really does help. And they can just be framed as questions to get to know people.
00:26:56
Speaker
So we haven't actually talked a lot about this. I'm kind of going off-script a bit. But I think one of the most difficult client situations really is getting paid. And like, I mean, I know that the contract is really important and even having fees within those contracts. Not a lawyer, disclaimer. But yeah, like, do you have any advice for just like gently prodding people to get them to deliver on payment? Or maybe you've been in a situation where they just didn't pay and so you stopped doing a project.
00:27:21
Speaker
Yeah, so we take the retainer really seriously. So if someone wants to start a project with us, then they're going to have to pay it 25% to 33% retainer somewhere in there, depending on what that project is. So I think that's important. The second thing is when payment is due. For us, payment is due in advance, not for an advance, but in advance of any final service being performed. And then we set benchmarks based on when we've completed certain
00:27:48
Speaker
segments or whatever. If you're a wedding photographer, that might be the retainer, then maybe you get paid after the engagement session and then maybe full payment is due a week in advance of the wedding. For website design, it's the retainer and then depending on the project, it's split up maybe after the design phase is done and before we actually build the website and then before we launch your website.
00:28:11
Speaker
So having having having set those expectations, you know, we send over a payment schedule, we encourage people to click the little box that says like, you know, auto pay, you know, so that once the date rolls around, their their their card is just charged. But then we just don't go on until payment is made. And it's as simple as hey, we finished designing your website, we're getting ready to build it. But in order to do so, we need you to make your next payment. Yeah.
00:28:34
Speaker
just communicating that kind of stuff. If that stuff can be laid out in the contract, that's even better. Did you use a contract shop contract as well? I did, yeah. I only recognize it because we used one and modified one as well. There's a place to lay out your payment structure in there.
00:28:51
Speaker
for you. Since you are on a monthly retainer. We've experienced this recently with till agency so till agency is a Facebook ads agency that I started with two friends of mine Ryan Akins and Jesse Marcheccio, who will be on the show soon. But we found that it's hard
00:29:07
Speaker
It's harder to get people or to remind people to pay on that monthly you know on that monthly basis and then you hear from a week later and there okay well do it sometime this week and all of a sudden it's two weeks late and then their next payment is due two weeks from them because their other payment was late. I don't know if you've experienced stuff like that.
00:29:25
Speaker
All the time. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the best ways to deal with it is whoever your, what is it called, like CRM, has an auto pay because that's really helpful. If you assume they're going to be working with you in the same amount, like, you know, every month, the auto pay is really helpful because then they don't have to think about it. And I genuinely believe and most of the times in those situations, it just gets buried in their email. Maybe administration is like not their top point and so they just forget.
00:29:50
Speaker
So i've never i don't think i've ever charged someone a late fee i had one time a client felt so bad that it was so late that she gave me basically her own late fee which i thought was really funny but in general i send out those emails and again i give them the benefit of the doubt i might say hey i might use some language like hey this invoice is past due let me know if you have any questions here's the link again
00:30:12
Speaker
But I've never had someone just like officially ghost and not pay. Sure, sure. Yeah. And likewise, but one thing that we learned as far as like a monthly retainer like that is using the recurring invoice option. So I know we both use upsado, but I think a lot of CRM is going to have this option. I know wave apps for those who use wave accounting.
00:30:31
Speaker
They were just acquired by H&R Block, by the way, for something like $500 million. So big payday for Wave. But anyways, using the recurring invoice feature in Dipsado where when the client sets it up, they're literally agreeing to automatic payments on the first of each month or whatever day it is that you set. That's been really helpful. And as you know, it takes time to follow up with people who haven't made payments. We deal with this sometimes in the palm shop.
00:30:59
Speaker
where somebody uses one of our payment plans and their payment fails for whatever reason, that time tracking people down and getting them to pay and update their information, all of that adds up. So really trying to figure out ways just to get people to pay on time is a huge time saver as well. It really is. And I think that, like you mentioned, having some of the process automated or even using templates that you just copy and paste it to say basically in a really gentle way, you still have something outstanding.
00:31:26
Speaker
So hopefully, again, I really just give people the benefit of the doubt. They miss it. They're busy. Something's going on in their life. And hopefully, you never get to a situation where they owe you thousands of dollars. People just start doing the service. I mean, pause the Facebook ad or whatever until you get paid.
00:31:43
Speaker
I know that you have turned clients away before, and I'd be really interested in hearing what are some of the things that you look for as you're feeling out a prospective client relationship and what clients you've been taking on, what clients you say, we're not really a
Turning Away Misaligned Clients
00:32:01
Speaker
good fit.
00:32:01
Speaker
Yeah, I have some really funny stories, so because I am like so broadly on SEO and Pinterest and not just like in my own little niche community, I get inquiries from all over. My favorite one was a company who developed, I don't even want to be too specific, but it was a product in the laundry like field niche.
00:32:22
Speaker
And they wanted me to help advertise their product on Pinterest. And I don't really work in that industry. It seemed like a neat product. So I wrote them back and basically just said, you know, thank you so much for your inquiry. I always try to say something interesting and say, hey, I love your product. I think that's really efficient or useful, something kind.
00:32:41
Speaker
but i don't actually work with a primarily product-based businesses and i don't believe we be a good fit i work with creative businesses thinking they would understand that but they wrote me back really offended because they thought that their product was really created but not the credit business.
00:32:57
Speaker
And so I took that opportunity to realize I should have communicated better and said, hey, no, what I mean is I typically work with people in the wedding industry or wedding professionals or whatever. And so they never wrote back after that. But again, I didn't love the way they responded to me, but I felt like it was still important for me to be able to communicate well and so that I never had like a bad situation come back. Within the wedding industry or people in the creative industry like calligraphers or content creators and educators,
00:33:24
Speaker
I typically, in the beginning, the discovery, figuring out if they actually have a blog or are blogging regularly. Because I do feel like there are ways to drive traffic to your website using Pinterest, especially if you want to use a promoted pen and not deal with blogging. But for me, the best way for me to drive traffic to your website is through regular content creation. So if I get a feel that that's not really what they want, that they just want people to show up on their website, I usually try to educate them a little bit about why I would want them to have a blog and they kind of see that and then things kind of like
00:33:53
Speaker
you know, diffuse. So I would say that that's typically my main qualifying question, the way that I'm gently turning people away towards maybe just a different platform. Like Pinterest may not be for them from that perspective.
00:34:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I think regardless of what industry you're in or specific type of job you're in within the creative industry, that you're going to have a list like that. So for you, it's looking at their blog and saying, hey, are they
Client Requests and Maintaining Uniqueness
00:34:18
Speaker
creating content? Because if they're not creating content, I can't make that magic of Pinterest work for them, or at least not in the way that maybe I can for somebody who is creating content. For us, we'll occasionally get inquiries and it's like, hey, we want a website that looks exactly like
00:34:34
Speaker
insert influencer here. So whoever that might be. And so that's, I think on the website design of things, really kind of the biggest red flag like, all right, we're not gonna build you a website that looks exactly like somebody else's, especially if it's, I mean, not especially if it's a client like ours, regardless of whose client it is, we're just not gonna do it. And oftentimes when we respond and you say, hey, listen, we try to explain to people,
00:35:01
Speaker
Hey, we understand that you might use other websites as influence or there might be things that you like about different websites that might inform your own, but it's important to us that your website looks unique and, you know, like you. And so we might not be the best fit for you.
00:35:17
Speaker
Sometimes people just won't write back. Other times people will say, hey, listen, that's really what I meant. Of course, I don't want a website that looks exactly like so and so's website. And then they end up being great clients. But that's definitely something that we look for during the inquiry process. Do you ever get people who just aren't your style at all and that you feel like you would struggle with to even make that design come to life because you're not used to, I don't know, using really bold, dark, heavy colors?
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, we do occasionally get that if people are sending us or referencing another a lot of the same designers work, you know, so if it's like we get three example sites of what they they think of and it's from the same designer and that designer one isn't us and be it's the same person we just
00:36:05
Speaker
We really just straight up tell him like, Hey, this, this person might be a good person for you to reach out to like, that's just not our aesthetic. I mean, occasionally we do a lot of Facebook advertising. We do a lot of, you know, we focus on SEO. Occasionally we have somebody come into our website who's never really heard heard of us before. And so they inquire, you know, I got on the phone with somebody and she's, you know, at the end of the call, she goes, Oh, you know, what's your name again?
00:36:28
Speaker
And it's not that I wasn't offended that she hadn't heard of me before, right? That's not why I was offended. And I guess I wasn't offended at all, but I just thought it was funny, like, you're literally calling, you know, you're on the phone with Davey and Krista, you know, you would think that you would remember, you know, like, it's the owner of the company that's talking to you, right? And so things like that, where I'm like, you know, you're really not familiar with us or our work.
00:36:53
Speaker
And that happens sometimes, like when I'm on the phone with somebody and I say, hey, have you taken a look at the templates on our website? Have you taken a look at our portfolio? And somebody says, no, not really. I make it a point to say, hey, before we move on, you really should take a look at that and make sure that it resonates with you on some level.
00:37:09
Speaker
Do you guys do a good job of kind of qualifying well before you even get to the discovery process? Because discovery calls are really time expensive for you. I mean, even just energy for me to be on the phone with people plus making the time to make a call is really difficult in my busy kind of mom-preneur life. So you're really good at like keeping people and gating them before you get to that point.
00:37:30
Speaker
I think so. I think we've improved that effort over the last year. I'd say that if you're just starting a business, not focusing too much on the qualification process, at least the pre-qualification process. You definitely want to qualify people even if you're just starting your business. But what I mean is that when I first started doing discovery calls, pretty much anybody could sign up. There were no questions that they were met with that would let me know anything more about them.
00:37:53
Speaker
And really, I was just feeling out that process. I wanted to talk to people. I wanted to hear what people were saying. I wanted to talk to everybody. Of course, that's not sustainable. And like you said, discovery calls take a long time. So we ask a few questions. We do ask what their budget is for the project, what kind of project exactly they're interested in, what their biggest concern is about the project. And that's a really revealing question. I mean, we get some answers that are like, I really need this website designed by next week. And it's like,
00:38:22
Speaker
And then I can send a quick email back to that person and say, hey, listen, first of all, we won't be able to start your project in a week, let alone finish your project by next week. But that kind of stuff allows me to reach out in advance and just kind of explain myself and say, hey, you said this. This is why this might not be realistic. If you still want to keep your call, let me know. We'll jump on the phone. If not, we're probably not the best fit. And so that definitely saves time.
00:38:48
Speaker
I have an interesting question for you. How would you deal with a bad kind of experience from somebody who a friend referred them to you? So let's just say your good friend that you work with a lot, you guys are in the same ecosystem, refers their friend to you to work with you, but you have a bad experience. And so you now have this kind of awkward triangle relationship. How would you deal with that?
00:39:10
Speaker
So do you mean like how would I deal with it in terms of so the experience is already over and how do I deal with my friend who referred that client. I like I referred someone to you and they were a disaster and like midway through the project you're like this is not going to work or not going to make this work. How would you deal with that situation that kind of kind of protect the person who like you probably still want to receive referrals from me that you don't want to ruin that relationship.
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean that's an interesting question because we would probably treat that client how we treated all of our other clients. So if we get a referral from somebody and that client's not a good fit, at whatever point we feel like during the process that client's not a good fit, we'd probably address it as we would any other client. I think we would at some point, especially if it was you because we know you so well, reach out to you and just say, hey, listen,
00:39:56
Speaker
Things went a bit south with this client. We feel like it was because XYZ, we really value a referral and we're sorry that happened and that would probably be
Referring Problematic Clients and Setting Expectations
00:40:09
Speaker
the end of it. I promise I will not send you. You know, but it happens. A lot of times,
00:40:18
Speaker
I mean, we've gotten referrals from people and then have turned those people away because a lot of times it's not as personal as that, you know, sometimes like, you know, we get referrals from Amy and Jordan and Caitlin and stuff like that. And sometimes they don't know these people either, you know, there's just people who have reached out to them and asked for a recommendation, and then they've passed on.
00:40:39
Speaker
you know, our name that happened just the other day. So somebody reached out to us, they wanted a certain kind of site that just we have no interest in building. And so we just said, hey, we actually don't do this kind of stuff, you might try so and so. Okay, so you do try to refer them and we talked about this, I think it was the previous episode about client communication, but you do try to refer them to someone else.
00:41:01
Speaker
Do you, or are there ever some people, okay, so that sounds a negative, but back to that whole engineering comment. I made the very beginning of the episode how I look for things that are going to go wrong.
00:41:12
Speaker
Do you ever see someone so problematic that you're like, I don't want to refer this person to anybody because Oh, yeah. Okay. You definitely had that happen during the wedding photography like it while we were shooting weddings. We've had I mean, one just in general when you can refer somebody that's a great way to defer a tough situation when you're saying no, I'm not a good fit. But here you should try XYZ. A lot of people I think really appreciate that and they can understand like, you're trying to connect me with somebody who will better serve me.
00:41:41
Speaker
based on my needs. So I think a lot of people will appreciate that. I think when you can refer other people, that's great just as a way to give back to sort of the greater ecosystem. We did that all the time while we were wedding photographers. It's a little different as web designers, but we do occasionally try to refer people when we can. We have sent our list of referrals to people and then reached out to the people on that list and said, hey, you might get a referral from XYZ.
00:42:09
Speaker
there are certain things that were alarming to us just, you know, beware. So that's we've occasionally done that. And then for somebody who we just, you know, don't want to put in somebody else's or make somebody else's problem, we just don't refer anybody would just say, Hey, I'm sorry, we're good fit. Good luck. Let us know if we can be of any help. Yeah, that's funny that you reached out and kind of let them know. But it's true that somebody might really want the business and might be willing to take it on or maybe about them that might work better with them. So
00:42:38
Speaker
That's really helpful to think about, so yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:42:43
Speaker
One thing that you can also do as we wrap up here, I think just in general, a lot of it comes down to setting expectations. Any kind of documentation that you can provide people upfront in your marketing materials, but even guides to set expectations as people get started with their project, I think that kind of stuff really helps. Realizing that we have some ownership in tough client situations. I think that's one of the hardest things to recognize is that
00:43:10
Speaker
we play a part in that on some level. Even if it's 99% their problem, 1%, reflecting on that 1% that maybe were the cause of, and then fixing that going forward. That might be simply how you outline expectations. One thing that I realized by doing discovery calls, I really like getting on the phone with people because I think it's really a lot easier to understand where people are coming from, what they want, answer questions on the phone.
00:43:37
Speaker
However, people forget what you say and then you don't have anything to go back to in writing. For me, one thing that I learned is after these discovery calls, it's really important that somewhere, whether it be in the contract or an email follow-up, that we recap what we talked about on the phone so that we can always fall back on that and say, hey, remember, we did actually talk about this.
00:44:02
Speaker
Setting expectations is one of the big things. Reviewing your contract with your clients, again, that might not be super realistic from a time standpoint for a lot of people. You don't want to worry people with certain clauses, I guess. One thing that we've started doing is adding boxes that people initial at the bottom. Those boxes are just simply summaries of
00:44:26
Speaker
clauses that we want people to pay special attention to. One of the things that people initial at the bottom of our contract for website design is we have a text box that says something like, client understands that progress on project largely depends on client's ability to deliver content as needed. They just have initial and that's outlined in the contract in a much
00:44:48
Speaker
more legal way, right? Yeah. But this way, we know clients like you've literally you've read it in the contract, then you've literally had to put your initials next to it. And so it's just a way for us to reinforce an issue that we noticed in the past. Yeah, no, that's important. It sounds like you're looking at the things that come up the most, which probably is just
00:45:08
Speaker
Innocent like clients who are late on delivering what they need to get to you that they are reminded of that But that really is going to be an important part of their participation in the project. So that's helpful
00:45:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I don't know if there's anything else that we didn't cover. I'm sure there's a lot. If you have questions, if you're listening, you have additional questions, we'd love to hear them. So you can comment in the show notes or you can comment on the blog post and we'd love to get back to you about your specific, you know, maybe difficult client situation that we haven't covered. Is there anything else, Vanessa?
00:45:41
Speaker
No, I think we've kind of hit on it. I think it's just important to keep your cool and be kind and thoughtful and give people the benefit of the doubt, but then also just protect your business boundaries and know that there's some things you just can't say yes to. That's right. And I think it's helpful to realize too that if you're in business, you are bound to deal with a difficult client situation that
00:46:01
Speaker
I've never met anybody who's been in business for at least any substantive amount of time that hasn't dealt with a difficult client situation. So remember that, get through it, reflect on it and make adjustments and then move on. Yep. Cool. Well, thanks again. I'm excited to chat with you soon about our recent website rebuild. So that episode will actually air before this one. So yeah. Thank you.
00:46:31
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to dvandchrista.com.