Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Rebloom, a podcast about change, creativity, and coming back to yourself. We are Lori and Jamie, and this is a space for honest conversations with people who felt that quiet nudge to realign, whether that's in their work, their creativity, or their everyday lives.
Speaker: Each episode is a conversation about becoming, about listening closely, making shifts, and finding your way back to what matters. So if you are in a season of change, you're questioning or starting again, we are really glad you're here.
Speaker: Lori, we have yet another incredible interview today, and our guests are in for a huge treat. Aren't we so lucky that we get to have these conversations? i was I was taking copious notes in this one because a lot of what Anna had to say, i can totally relate to and I'm going to buy Some of the book a book she recommended. I'm going to try out a couple of the exercises she talked about. So this is a juicy one. Really good.
Speaker: Well, she is fantastic. She is she's had a wonderful career. She's had a broad range of a career. And at each time she has pivoted to do something that works.
Speaker: her heart loves and needs. And it's also made some physical differences in her by choosing the things that she really loves. She's got an incredible podcast called How to Trust Yourself. um I know that I'm going to be listening to it because I just love her advice. I love everything that she has to say. And so will our guests today.
Speaker: Well, hello, my friend, Lori. How are you today? I'm a little wiped out today, Jane. I'm not going to lie. I'm getting ready to go on a trip to teach. And i always get a little wigged out before I leave because I have lots to do and packing. And i just want to make sure I do a really good job when I teach. So Yep. Well, that you've got some incredible trips coming up. You're going to Mexico. You're going to Ireland. Yep. And Provence. And I have a packed year this year. ah And, you know, you're not just packing to go on vacation. You have to pack all your art supplies. You have to pack things for your students. I mean, it's a big deal. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And i I like to be prepared. Well, that's why your retreats sell out. And i i get to do one with you in May. we're going to do Rebloom in May, which is going to be great fun in Madison, Indiana in July. And Chautauqua in July. And so it's super exciting. I mean, that's the beauty, I think, of coming to those retreats, is that not only do you find a spark, but then it continues and then the friendships continue and it's just beautiful. That's really funny. love that so much. Well, speaking of sparks, we have a really cool guest today.
Speaker: Oh my gosh, we are so excited to welcome Anna Holtzman. And I think that she's the professional version of us. I don't know she would agree to that, but she's had a really cool career in TV and she's a psychotherapist and she's a life coach and she's had a lot of pivots along the way, but she helps so many other people in their life journey. And so welcome Anna Holtzman.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so delighted to get to meet you both in real time after listening to this podcast for a while. Well, what you do is a perfect fit for for what we're doing here on the podcast. So, yeah. And we are so glad to have you. So glad to have you.
Speaker: I'm so glad to be here. Yeah, i've I've referred to myself as the queen of pivots. I feel like if there's something that I've stuck with and really honed in on, it's pivoting. And so when I discovered your podcast, I was immediately drawn to it. Oh my God, how perfect. it will Take us back and let's go through some of the big pivots that you've experienced through your journey.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, yeah, they've all been pretty massive departures. Yeah. In terms of career, um I started off studying to be an architect in college.
Speaker: That was my goal. I was doing studio architecture in college. And I worked very briefly in that field after college as an architectural model maker and assistant. And i pretty quickly discovered that while I loved the study of architecture,
Speaker: I did not have such an aptitude for three-dimensional design. Which that's so important in our community. I thought that's going to make this career difficult and for me. um But what I loved was...
Speaker: storytelling. And initially I thought I loved visual storytelling and I sent in an application to my favorite architectural magazine ah to apply for a job in their graphic design department.
Speaker: And i was very lucky to get an interview. It just so happened when I sent in my application, they were going through a total overhaul of staff, which was luck of timing. So they gave me an interview. The art director looked at my book and he said, well, you don't know the first thing about typography. And did you say, and your point is what? Not a great start. He said, but you can write. So you should talk to the editorial department. And I was hired as a junior editor at a magazine almost almost right out of school. So that was a very exciting real start to to my career. Was was it Architectural Digest, can you say? No. So so Architectural Digest is a consumer magazine. And I was working at...
Speaker: a trade magazine. The title was simply the word architecture for any architects listening. This magazine doesn't exist anymore, but it used to, the design of it had just arch it on the cover. And for architecture students, this was like the place to be the, the magazine to read. So it was very exciting to me. That's cool. And that's cool that he recognized yeah and sent you in a direction that made sense. Yeah, it's funny. it was one of those like pivotal things. It wasn't a direction I'd been pursuing, but someone else gave me a little nudge and then that sent me off. You know, that's what we often find too, is that you open a door you open the door that you think, like architecture. Yeah. And then you realize that, yes, maybe that isn't the right door for you to go through, but yet it leads you somewhere else.
Speaker: And had you not gone through that door, it wouldn't have led you to this magazine. And yeah, I don't know. This is just coming to me in this moment. I'm thinking about it as kind of like, i think some people are born knowing exactly what their path is and then they just follow it. yeah But I don't think that's true for most people. And for me, I feel like when I was a really little kid, I loved collage. My mom would set me down with just a bunch of magazine pages and things cut out of them and I'd create a collage And I feel like my career path has been sort of like a collage. It's like you get inspired by one thing and then we'll see how it interacts with another thing. And then, you know, that's how you kind find your way. i love that. The collage of life. I mean, I do think, well, we've talked to a lot of folks and and certainly Lori's has been ah a little bit more of a straight trajectory just in art, but certainly pivots within the art world. Mine, I'm a little bit more like you, Anna. I'm a big old collage. Yeah.
Speaker: But it's also very fun and interesting because you're more open to those opportunities. But then I think you can begin to see what's going to work and what's not going to work. And but you started to pursue the the writing.
Speaker: Yes. So I was a magazine editor and I was writing for other publications for several years. And then I realized, like, I really i like interviewing people. i like so pursuing stories.
Speaker: I don't like making next to no money because... A lot of people don't care for that. It's very hard to make a decent living in this very small, rarefied niche of journalism. And I had grown up seeing my parents work in film and television. My father directed television commercials and my mom worked with him as a first a costume designer and then a set designer.
Speaker: So I didn't want to work in commercials because that's what my parents did. And i like turned my nose up at that at the time. Now I look back and realize what, you know, how cool that was. But um I thought I'm going to be i want to be a film director. um and so i asked a bunch of people, you know, how do I become a film director? And the advice I got was, well, make a film. So I just set off, you know, speaking you. love you, Anna. Like, you're hilarious. Like, I'm going to be an architect and now i'm going to be a film director. Okay. And this is within like, what, three years? Oh, yeah. Maybe like four years out of school. I love it. And those are lofty professions. yeah Yes. Yes. Well, I, I skipped a part where I, where I thought I was going to start a magazine and that's how I created the portfolio. Gotcha. Gotcha. A lot, a lot of big ideas at at early ages. Um, yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah, I made this very scrappy documentary about New York City subway musicians because I'm born and raised in New York. I still live in New York. And that was an easy subject, easy access subject matter. That's pretty cool.
Speaker: It was a lot of fun. i was we were talking before we turned the mics on about faking it till you make it. It was a very much a fake it, fake it till you make it. Yeah.
Speaker: And i was doing that to launch my career as a film director. I knew a little bit about how publicity works from working at a magazine. So I put on ah a screening of this film at a small little theater in downtown. And I had been collecting press contacts during my time working at the magazine, even though it was a design magazine, you know, you'd get press releases from all kinds of people. Right. ready I knew what a good press release looked like because I got a lot of bad ones sent to me.
Speaker: And i sent a press blast out to all every email address I'd been hoarding. And I got all this incredible publicity. So I got it a full page write-up in Time Out New York Magazine. Wow. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker: A big deal back in 2006, I think. um I was invited to be a guest on a live TV show hosted by an NPR radio host. Oh, my God. Very cool. thing And the absolute coolest was that... um David Lee Roth, the former lead singer of Van Halen, he had a live radio show at the time. And somehow or another, his producers got my press release. I don't know how this happened, but I was a guest on his live radio show. Whoa, how cool. That's crazy. so you're in your 20s at this point. Is this correct? I was like 29, 28, 29. Wow. That's amazing.
Speaker: That, that's amazing. And, you know, but it also shows, you know, you're picking up those little clues along the way. I mean, yes, I know what you said about your parents, but there was a lot of education, I would imagine, growing up in your household about how to do things.
Speaker: You know, i saw what I saw growing up, both with my parents and also with my grandparents, who my mom's parents were were immigrants. And um my my grandfather made tables. He designed and made coffee tables. Oh, wow. Wow. And so I think what I witnessed is, like, don't wait for anyone to invite you to to do something or to show you the path.
Speaker: Just do it. Don't wait for permission. i love that. I feel like so far you you're living that. Yes. So I can't wait to hear what the next thing is. I mean, like this is a book. This is an honest to God book.
Speaker: so So, so the next part of it kind of links in to what I do now, but it it took me a long time to get there. uh, ah yeah had the screening of this film, all this cool press about it.
Speaker: And after the screening, I Googled myself and amidst all of this cool press that came up, there was one really personal and nasty negative review in some obscure personal blog And when I read it, and it was like a takedown of the film, it was a takedown of me, like this person just really had a problem with me.
Speaker: And I was so frozen, i would say, after reading that, that I just kind of you know, curled up into a ball and I stopped promoting the film. I stopped putting it out there. but I didn't even realize that at the time. You know, it's just like such a state of freeze that i just kind of like some time passed by.
Speaker: and the story I had in my head about it was like, Oh, I guess um my career as a director never went anywhere. I guess no one ever discovered me or picked up my film.
Speaker: And I didn't really recognize that I had stopped promoting it and I had stopped on showing up for it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that what happens sometimes, and I i see this with kids, I see it with it with my own, i see it with others. you You can be told over and over, you're smart, you're you've got talent, you've got this, you've got that. It's the one person that says, you know, you're not that good at this. or you ah and for some reason,
Speaker: That's the voice we choose to listen to. And it could be just somebody who's having a really bad day and they don't even know that they're saying something in the way that they've done it. And that person is probably just a little speck of a human that made all those decisions. But look at what an impact negativity has. ah And we're currently living in an environment where there is a lot of unkindness and divisiveness. Is that a word? It is. and
Speaker: And just to hear you talk about the power that that one negative comment had on you. it's so saddening because it can really derail a person for not only in their career, but for life.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, you know, Negative comments, you know, when it's personal, it's nasty. My feeling is it comes from a place of fear.
Speaker: Yeah. And someone is projecting their their fear and discomfort outward. And fear is so contagious. And so many of us go through periods of our life kind of ruled by the smallest, most fearful voice in someone else, oftentimes a stranger that we don't even know. Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, that fear just really permeated. So you must have shut that voice down because then what happened? How did we pivot from there? So it did kind of shut down my drive to put myself out there as this director, this auteur. But I learned how to do video editing through the making of that film.
Speaker: And so my next burst of oomph was sending out, you know, just like a gazillion, I think I sent out about 100 emails to anyone I'd ever crossed paths with who had anything to do with film or television. yeah who was looking for a job as an editor. And that led to one first job,
Speaker: It was um a reality style travel show for Delta Airline, but it was a web series, which was kind of a new thing at the time. Yeah. um And that set me off on it ah a whole decade of editing reality TV. Wow. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So that was like, you know, one thing led to another. And before I knew it, i was 10 years deep in working for MTV and lots of other, it's, it's a freelance industry. So, you know, hopped from show to show, worked on a lot of different ones. Some of them more savory than others. Yeah. Yeah. There's a wide span in the world of reality TV areas. A very wide span. Yeah.
Speaker: ah And part of my story with that, too, is that ah the first day of my first job working as a reality TV editor, i got my first migraine attack, oh debilitating headache.
Speaker: Very much related to the pressure and intensity of that job where you're under the gun. You're tasked with being highly creative very at a very fast speed with someone looking over your shoulder and making commentary on your work as you're doing it. oh Wow. Yeah, it's very intense. Yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah, I did that for 10 years. During that time, I made little film projects here and there. And and i I did have other attempts at getting the directing career going.
Speaker: But I it just I couldn't really like stick with it. I couldn't deal with the amount of rejection. Yeah. ah lot You know, a lot of people have to go through.
Speaker: Yeah. did the migraines continue through this period? Yes. So the migraines continued very sporadically at first, but over time it kind of snowballed. And by 10 years into my career in that field,
Speaker: I just had had enough. It was, you know, it was a great place to be for that period of time, but it was never my intended forever landing place. And eventually I thought, you know, and don't think this directing thing is going to happen for me. i don't have this stick-to-itiveness to deal with all the rejection in that direction.
Speaker: ah path. And i had started going to therapy, not because of the migraines, but, you know, related relationship stuff and stress and various things that would feed into the tension of migraines.
Speaker: And i decided, i think i I would like to do this for a living, be a therapist. Um, And so I gradually, first I started off by dipping a toe in the water. I took a life coaching certification, started working with clients here and there, and then finally took the leap and went to grad school.
Speaker: And interestingly, when I left television, I thought that the migraines would subside because I thought, you know, this is such a stressful career. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's also an environment where Like, you can't really talk about your feelings in a reality TV edit room. Like, you've got to be tough. You've got to crack jokes. You've got to just push through. And so I thought, I'm going to be in grad school talking about feelings, and it's going to be a slower pace, and maybe the migraines will subside.
Speaker: But the exact opposite of that happened. It was then that the migraines became chronic and they really started to take over my whole life. Wow.
Speaker: Yeah. And because of the pressure of grad school, I mean, because grad school is not easy and not easy. but i here's how I understand it You know, we're all just kind of living in our own interpretations of these things. Right.
Speaker: The way that I look at it is I thought I would feel so free to be me, you know, yeah and just unjudged and all that stuff. But grad school has its own code of, you know, yeah how they interpret things, how they want you to do things. Yeah.
Speaker: Some of the classes and professors that I had were more in alignment with my way more of more like a holistic way of seeing things, which was my vibe. Others were more pathologizing and old school and, um you know, looking at what I considered normal emotional responses to life as like pathology. And was,
Speaker: felt very much in conflict with that. And you're seeing what I'm doing with my body is like, yeah, embracing and kind of like masking and protecting myself. So it was that like, I'm about to just let go and fully express myself. And then I suddenly have to clench back and kind of mask myself again. Yeah, yeah. I think that created just a big boiling pot of tension inside of me. oh my gosh. So you continued and you have your degree. Yeah. So after you got the degree and started practicing, did the migraine subside then?
Speaker: So what happened was because they became such an intrusive part of my life and they were stopping me, I was afraid I wasn't going to be able to have a therapy practice because i was canceling on people left and right with no notice.
Speaker: And so i dove dove into my own research and I discovered this whole world of mind-body medicine influenced by someone named Dr. John Sarno. He wrote a well-known book called Healing Back Pain. And then his work. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So he his work influenced all these other folks who... There was kind of like a renaissance in that field going on at the time, coincidentally. And once I discovered this work, it was like a doorway for me into my own recovery, which felt like a miracle. was...
Speaker: Not immediate and not, you know, when I say recovery, I still get headaches, but I'm no longer have that chronic situation. So I have a question. Did you have and you are a creative person because I can hear that in each of these different avenues that you've selected. Was creativity a part of your life throughout this? And did that provide some relief to you?
Speaker: Yes, creativity has always been part of my life, but did it provide relief initially? Not initially. Okay. i've always I've always had some kind of creative project going on, whether it's writing. um i have a podcast now. That's a creative outlet.
Speaker: um I used to paint and draw a long time ago, and I'd like to get back to that, but haven't recently. But I was working on it, like a big writing project at the time.
Speaker: and It was the writing would actually trigger my migraine attacks. interesting hu And i was putting so much pressure ah it was like this this long, very very robust essay that I was writing.
Speaker: um And i had so much pressure on it to express what I wanted to express the right way.
Speaker: um And also just so much pressure on myself to to produce writing when I would sit down to write. So i I'd like... produce writing through kind of clenching my way through it, if that makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker: So it sounds like that became more it. Oh, sorry, Jane. Yeah, that's okay. No. Well, I, you know, I just sort of think about like, you know, being free to just create. So it's interesting because i when I'm tense, I'll go up and I'll play in my studio, but I just play.
Speaker: Yeah. And there's no There's no expectations. It's not a client. Nobody wants anything. I don't care. You know, if it if it works out, it works out. If it doesn't, you know, but it's just sort of letting my brain relax. Yeah. um Because it, I don't know, for me, that's, that's why I asked the question. Because I i was curious about, mean, what you've been doing is very intense, like that, the editing and stuff, that's very intense work.
Speaker: Yeah, very intense. And that was kind of like the habit and the pattern that I knew. yeah And it was really through my the the work of recovering from migraine that I discovered a different way to be creative and and to you know to grow my business, like all of that stuff. Yeah.
Speaker: This episode of Rebloom is brought to you by Jet Creative, a woman owned creative studio and longtime friends of our podcast. Jet Creative partners with brands and individuals to help clarify their story, strengthen their visual presence and communicate with intention.
Speaker: Their work is rooted in collaboration, care and the belief that thoughtful creativity has the power to connect with people in meaningful ways. We are extremely grateful for their continued support of Rebloom and the conversations we care so deeply about.
Speaker: You can learn more about Jet Creative and their work by visiting the link in our show notes. Before we continue, we just want to share this. This May, we're gathering for the Live Courageously Rebloom Conference, a few intentional days to pause, connect, and re-bloom.
Speaker: If you are craving space to reflect and reconnect, we'd love to have you with us. Details are in the show notes. And now let's jump back into our conversation.
Speaker: So what you learned through your journey and the health on the health side, you build that into your therapeutic practice, I take it? Yes.
Speaker: Yes. And it just, it transformed everything. Everything. It transformed the way I do life. It transformed the way i do creativity. And it became the focus of my therapy and coaching practice for the first five years of it. I devoted my practice to helping others recover from chronic symptoms.
Speaker: And for me, there's so many different um ways to do this mind-body work. But for me, with what was really the entry point and the the tool that just opened things up for me was expressive writing.
Speaker: h And specifically writing in dialogue with myself. So I would write in dialogue with my symptoms.
Speaker: And ah Jamie, you were always saying like, you you go into your studio and you have no expectations, you know, it's just like, whatever comes out comes out. So through this way of writing, I learned total, for me, totally new way of interacting with myself.
Speaker: where it wasn't about like, I got to get something down on the page, get it right. It was like sitting down with a friend who's in distress and saying, hey I could see like, you're feeling tense.
Speaker: Let's hang out. What's going on for you? yeah And really have that open-ended conversation where you're not expecting your friend to produce some kind of body of work for you or or even to like, you know, reveal what's at the root of things. Like you just want to be with them and that's what helps them start to soften and to breathe a little bit more. And they might come out with a really potent nugget about what's going on for them or they might not.
Speaker: But just that open, no expectation, curious, caring dialogue is what helps them to soften again. I think I remember, and i I'm not, i think this is the same person. um My cousin's husband is somebody I respect a great deal. He's a physician and he was having back back pain.
Speaker: Yeah. And so I think this book that you've referenced is the one that he was reading and he found that this gentleman did some MRIs of everybody he And essentially, some you know they all some had back pain, some some didn't, but the ones that really had the back pain were the type A's that were keeping it all bottled up, that were not releasing that tension that that can manifest as, and maybe I'm incorrect in this, i but it was- No, absolutely. you're You're right on. Because he's the healthiest person that I know, and he was having this back pain, and he would do what you're saying. He would write write. And then he would just write and then he'd throw it away.
Speaker: He'd be like, just a i'm I'm just going to write on the train how I'm feeling. And then, and his back pain went away, completely went away. Okay, I'm totally going to do this. Because I have back pain and I stress about, you know, making yeah sure everything's just right. So yeah. I think I need to start writing to myself. Well, actually I did do the morning pages from yeah Artist's Way years and years ago where you're basically writing stream of consciousness, consciousness which is really, really helpful because to get all the all that crap out of your head and, you know, just get it out, get it out and then throw it away. i love that idea.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, and there's lots of different styles of, I call it mind-body journaling, because you're really interacting with your mind and your body as you're writing.
Speaker: There's the Sarno method, the Dr. John Sarno method, which is more of like a rage on the page, kind of like a get it all out, exercise your demons on the page, and then tear it up.
Speaker: um And that was very helpful for me in the early stage of my recovery process, because But eventually my style organically morphed into more of a compassionate dialogue where I'm sharing my feelings on the page. Right. But then I'm also responding to myself on the page as a friend would because I felt like if I...
Speaker: sat down with a friend and poured my guts out and they said, good job. All right, I've got to go now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. right it would It would make me feel...
Speaker: reticent to pour my heart out again the next time. Whereas if they respond with compassion and warmth and they're normalizing the feelings, it makes it feel safer to express them the next time around.
Speaker: Right. I love this. This is beautiful. It is beautiful because I think, you as you said too, if you you, know, if a friend came to you and, you know, I, I feel this way, I'm a terrible person. You wouldn't say, yeah, you are.
Speaker: Yeah. away. i mean, we don't do that with our friends, but it's weird with ourselves. That's that negativity that yes, yes, you are bad. You're bad. You're bad. You know, and you're not. Yeah. Or like, well, here's a bunch of things you can do to fix yourself. Right.
Speaker: Right. And so I think I love that you're taking that time to talk about, um, to talk kindly to yourself. And I think we all need to do that.
Speaker: And I think we're so negative. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes women are not very good about their own bodies. Sometimes, you know, we're like, okay, this, this. I'm like, well, I like my calves. Let's just start with my calves. Sometimes. It's funny you brought that up because I was just away with some friends. And one of the things that we did when we're together is we're like, okay, each of us has to say one nice thing about our bodies physically. Yes. And we all sat there and like stewed about it. Yeah. You know, one person said, well, i like my blue eyes. And it's just, it's so hard for women to just recognize that their body is beautiful for whatever And that we're beautiful yeah and that we as humans are beautiful. And I think not only is it our body that we're negative about and we're critical of, but it's everything else that parent, being parents, being professionals, however and it's that negativity. Is that where...
Speaker: yeah and it's and And it requires a reconditioning process because we're not born feeling critical of our own bodies. We're conditioned into that, you know, whether we're getting negative feedback or we're getting negative feedback for feeling good about ourselves. Who do you think you are? That kind of thing. And so that's that becomes a conditioned reflex. We don't want negative feedback. So we'll hold back.
Speaker: Right. being kind to ourselves even and something that i picked up from the chronic pain work was this idea of graded exposure in that context graded exposure is usually about like if someone's got back pain and walking has become difficult Graded exposure is getting back into motion little by little, one little gentle step at a time. So you're reconditioning your nervous system's sense of safety in movement.
Speaker: And You can apply that also to being kind to yourself, as silly as that might sound. You can take one little step at a time and practicing it with someone else who's encouraging you will help your nervous system to develop a new, more positive association with that self-kindness.
Speaker: That's, I love this. This conversation is really, i think, going to be helpful to a lot of people. a lot of people, a lot of people. And, you know, it's interesting. It's so interesting that your practice is doing exactly, you know, you've sort of found this healing part, not only for yourself, but to help others. And so this is your most recent pivot. So you've pivoted So the most recent pivot. Oh, we have another one. It evolved from there, but it's really, you know, this less of a pivot and more of an evolution because what I found after doing this chronic pain recovery work with folks for five years is that, first of all, you know, was growing my business doing this and growing a business requires getting visible,
Speaker: doing things like having a podcast or guesting on podcasts or having a social media account, all that stuff. And I started to note it and, you know, like the the stuff that would just kind of like wipe out my nervous system in the past when I would get that negative review. yeah so I noticed that when I would step into some visible activity, like speaking,
Speaker: My nervous system was getting triggered. And i knew that at this stage because I was so tuned into my nervous system. was like, oh, i'm my neck's getting tense. My breath's getting shallow.
Speaker: Also, sometimes I'm feeling suddenly fatigued and like really not in the mood to show up and talk about my work. or suddenly the a self-criticism monster will just start going wild, racing around my brain, telling me you don't have anything interesting to say.
Speaker: And I was like, this is the same stuff that was going on with the migraine. And so I can use these same tools to move through that fear of visibility that's coming up.
Speaker: Yeah. And simultaneously, a lot of the same stuff was coming up with my clients because a lot of times people would stay with me past the time when their symptoms had you know already subsided and become manageable.
Speaker: And when that... tension had softened up, a lot of the time they wanted to use the energy for other more fun things like writing a book or starting a business or, you know, stepping into a different career. Sometimes it was starting a family. and as they moved into that next stage, they a different version of all of the same fears would come up and we'd use the same tools to move through those. Oh, I love those. That's interesting. That's very interesting. And, you know, I do think it as we grow and as you mature, and so it's interesting as you were just getting into your 20s and you were trying those different things. Again, we don't know. You open the door and you think, yes, this is what I want to be.
Speaker: And we also don't have often have the maturity or the skill set to identify that. But how amazing that you took all of these paths and then ended up circling back to understanding this now.
Speaker: And to your point, it It does happen in every – I mean, you're going to we're going to have stressors wherever we are, but it's good – we're all learning about ourselves and we learn – love – there's a phrase that they use um down south a lot.
Speaker: Instead of saying no, they say, I'm sorry, that won't work out for me right now. Which is the nicest way of saying no. Absolutely no. Oh, I love that. I'm going to put that down too. I'm sorry that won't work out for me right now. and Because I think we do need to set our own boundaries. and And I think if you've realized that this is a path that you feel uncomfortable to your point, whether it's public speaking, directing, being on camera. Lori and I had a brief stint on camera and we were nervous as cats. I mean, we...
Speaker: hated it. I had to paint or do something and my hands were shaking so bad oh badly. And one of the women who was watching this film, she said, Oh, I thought that was part of your technique. No, I was just shaking, shaking. Well, this is also the thing, you know, it's the, the, when our nervous system is activated into a threat response and to fear, um,
Speaker: It shows up in our physiology and in our thoughts and all of that, but it also feeds into our self-perception. so you know, we'll be filmed and the the hands are shaking. Right. And then when we look at it afterward through an activated nervous system, we'll be so critical of our shaking hands. Right.
Speaker: The folks who are learning from us are just happy to be learning from us and happy to see someone who's actually human teaching them. Exactly. And, you know, it's funny about this podcast. We specifically chose not to do video because we were uncomfortable and we kind of still are. But but it's easier um as we record this, we see you and you see us and that gives us great comfort. But we, and I think you go where you're comfortable. And Lori and I were both really comfortable. um
Speaker: Well, not initially, but a little bit more now. But um this this felt safe to us and not and we're not ah we're not anxious about it. And I hope that that comes out in our podcast because we love these conversations. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, for me as a listener, it absolutely does. And what you just named are two two of the tools that I've taken from all of that mind body work that I apply now to working through my own fear of visibility and helping clients.
Speaker: Because you named a version of graded exposure, right? Right. Starting with what's still a stretch, but it feels doable and it's not going to blow all your fuses out. Right.
Speaker: And also using co-regulation, which is something i am always tapping into, especially in interviews, because I'll, you know, i'm like, oh, I'm being recorded and that can take me out. And then I'll look at like the kindness in your face. And that settles my nervous system. It does. Connection builds feelings of safety. Well, I think to the fact that we did it together, James and like I never, when she said, we're doing a podcast, Laura, I'm like, what? Yeah.
Speaker: um But, you know, going through it hand in hand, you know, sometimes we reach speed bumps, but we get through them together and figure it out. And that makes a big difference. And the conversations have been so beneficial for both of us. And it's given us more gifts and that and and and it's that codependent, you know, codependency that we had on each other to get this going. And and that was the that's the strength that we needed to start it.
Speaker: And yeah. One of my favorite episodes was the one you two did, was just the two of you talking about the what it's the experience has been like to start the podcast.
Speaker: Thank you. We just, that's actually, um we've sort of we're kicking off season three with just us again too, because we've we've grown a lot. We've had a lot of um we've had a lot of loss. um I've had a loss, um a very serious one. Lori's lost some dear friends.
Speaker: And you know through this journey of life, it this has proven to be our creative outlet that has really been such a beautiful experience for us because we've talked to so many people that want to do something that they love. And that's why we loved your story, Anna, because it's like, yes, do it. Get out there and and And find what you love and just start. I love your grandparents and your parents. Just do it. Don't wait for it to come to you.
Speaker: So I'm curious. I always say this. That's my phrase. I'm curious if at any point some of your film...
Speaker: Your desire to do film and your editing skills will come to play in creating some kind of tool that lots of people can view.
Speaker: That's an interesting question. i could see you taking different people's stories or their journeys and committing that to film somehow because I think it would be really helpful.
Speaker: Yeah. I think film is something I'm i'm done with. I have have no desire to go back to that. And and going back to editing. No. Also. Well, you can check that box just art direct it. Yeah. You know, what I do love that does feel connected to the filmmaking is I love...
Speaker: ah Similar to what you just described, i love doing my podcast. I love interviewing people and just drawing their stories out of them. it's yeah i related to a lot of what you said. it's you You grow from each one of them. And also, the person who's being interviewed grows and gets to see themselves in a new way through being recorded. Right. It's fun when we take people back through their childhood and different pivotal moments in their lives that they maybe don't think about that often. Yeah.
Speaker: And you don't tend to, in everyday life, sort of contextualize your experience. You know, think of it as like a beginning, middle, and not end, but like an arc to these different periods of your life. Right, yeah. Well, and it's so interesting, too, because, and I love, i love Anna, that you open these doors, because ah and even just thinking about my own journey, and I started as a photographer about 12 years ago, And had no idea what I was doing, none. and you know But I went to a retreat.
Speaker: We were talking about that in the beginning of this episode, that opened one door, that opened another door, that opened it. and you know It's just the doors that continue to open just by following your heart are just endless if you let that happen.
Speaker: i Yes. And that that made me think of something that was like a ah pivotal, one pivotal moment for me was um I'd been working in TV for almost 10 years at this point, and I had kind of an emotional breakdown. It just, like the migraines were spinning out of control, ah just emotional upheaval, a lot of stuff underlying that. But anyway, I quit a TV gig I was working on, which I'd never, ever done before. I mean, I was not a person who had quit a gig, but I just had hit a wall of burnout and overwhelm. And i went to California to visit a friend good friend of mine. And we both attended a retreat together at Esalen. It was a meditation retreat. And i knew that I wanted to leave television. I knew, time
Speaker: i'd my time was I was ready to move on, but I didn't know what I would move on to or how and how would I make it work. And, you know, this job is making good money. So it's kind of the golden handcuffs.
Speaker: And I saw that there was a guy calling himself an intuitive guide giving sessions. And I was like, i'd sign me up. And as I lay on his table, he said this thing that's just stayed with me because it helped me so much. He said,
Speaker: The career you have now, you've outgrown it, but it's still offering you things that you need. It's paying your rent. It's ah keeping a roof over your head, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: Think of it as a jacket that doesn't quite fit you anymore. And instead of just balling up the jacket and throwing it away and then getting wet in the rain, just take one step toward an interest and then another.
Speaker: And gradually that jacket's going to naturally fall away. And that allowed me to just take that next step, which was signing up for a life coaching certification, not knowing how on earth that was gonna lead to anything.
Speaker: I love that. I like I wanna illustrate that. I see a picture of that yeah that moment in my head now. Yeah, I mean, that's brilliant advice, because we have we've had so many guests too that know that the career path that they're on is wrong.
Speaker: But there's realities. There are bills, there are children, there are, I mean, they can't just say, oh, I'm going to go paint for the love of painting and hope that it works out. And so that's a really, that's really sound advice. And yes, just start something, see how it goes, see where it leads, and then grow it from there. And most,
Speaker: Most successful brands, well, not most, but a lot of them, I mean, a lot of them, we talked to to Johnny O, who owns the clothing brand. He started in the back of his truck or back of his car selling T-shirts that he bought somewhere else and had them embroidered. I mean, and now it's this huge brand, but he had he had responsibilities and then it finally shifted. And so that happens a lot.
Speaker: It happens a lot. Yeah. So we usually when we start to wrap up, we usually ask people for a piece of advice. But I think that story you just shared is it.
Speaker: mean, it's such a good visual way of thinking of it. And if I could summarize it, I think I would say don't hold yourself back from taking the first step just because you can't see the whole roadmap yet.
Speaker: The roadmap will become clear through taking those steps one at a time. and Absolutely. i love it. Anna, your story is so inspirational. And okay, migraines anymore?
Speaker: The last time I had a knockdown migraine where I had to lie down and cancel things, I think was, I don't know how long it was ago, years. That's wonderful. Love it. Love it. Then that shows that you're headed down the path that is right for your heart and right for your your head so we don't have any more. I mean, my body will let me know if I'm, yeah, if I'm not on that right path. And it's great to listen to that. Thank you so much. um We will share your podcast and share your links with our listeners.
Speaker: You've just been incredible to have as a guest today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. could talk for hours. know. It's such, it's an honor and a pleasure to be here. I've enjoyed it so much. Well, thank you so much. And to our friends, peace, love, and Rebloom.
Speaker: Thanks for spending this time with us on Rebloom. We hope something from today stays with you. Maybe a thought, a feeling, or a spark of inspiration. And if this conversation resonated, we really hope you'll share it with a friend.
Speaker: We sure are grateful you're here, and we'll see you next time.
