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The Art of Transformation with Gayle Kabaker
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Gayle Kabaker is an award-winning illustrator, writer, and visual storyteller whose work celebrates femininity and beauty in all forms. After graduating from the Academy of Art in San Francisco, she began as a freelance fashion illustrator, setting the stage for her artistic evolution.
Her career took a pivotal turn in 2012 when her piece June Brides became the first of ten New Yorker covers, celebrating marriage equality. She later painted 100 portraits for Vital Voices: 100 Women Using Their Power to Empower, featured in a book and an exhibition at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C.
During the pandemic, Gayle documented her experience through The Washington Post column Sketching My Way Through Crisis, showcasing the therapeutic power of a sketchbook practice. More recently, she painted her way around Australia in a collaboration with Condé Nast Traveler and The New Yorker for Tourism Australia.
A dedicated educator, Gayle teaches workshops globally with her teaching partner Jennifer Orkin Lewis and shares her work through her online shop (gkabaker.com). Her original cover art is currently featured in a New York City exhibition celebrating 100 years of The New Yorker covers, marking yet another milestone in her ever-evolving creative journey.
Tune in to the ReBloom Podcast as we share Gayle’s incredible art journey!
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Jet Creative and UrbanStems!
· Jet Creative: A women-owned marketing firm committed to community and empowerment. Whether you’re launching a podcast or building a website, Jet Creative can help you get started. Visit JetCreative.com/Podcast to kickstart your journey!
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Website: https://gkabaker.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gaylekabaker
Conde Nast Traveler:
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Transcript
Introduction to Rebloom Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome to Rebloom, the podcast where we explore the power of change, rediscovery and living with intention. That's right. We're your hosts, Lori and Jamie, two friends who really love a good story about transformation.
00:00:16
Speaker
In each podcast, we're going to chat with inspiring guests who've made bold pivots in their lives or careers. They've let go of what no longer serve them to embrace something more authentic, joyful and true to who they really are.
00:00:31
Speaker
And the best part, many of them reconnect with passions or dreams they discovered as kids. It's about finding the seeds planted long ago and letting them bloom again.
Handling Rejection and Creative Pivots
00:00:43
Speaker
So if you're ready for real conversations about reinvention, purpose, and following your creative heart, you're in the right place. Let's dive in and see what it takes to re-bloom.
00:00:57
Speaker
This conversation was really meaningful to me because it's yet another person who I have great respect for. And, you know, I've gotten to be in her presence and watch her work.
00:01:12
Speaker
And she's a great inspiration. And this conversation was very inspiring. And it was great to hear about handling rejection and what that looks like and not giving up and you know, doing work that brings you joy and making pivots more towards that. What did you take away?
00:01:36
Speaker
I took away so much. And, you know, are our listeners, Lori has had the wonderful opportunity to meet many artists in person, and she brings many of our guests to us.
Guest Gail Cabaker's Artistic Journey
00:01:49
Speaker
for us all to meet and hear their journey. And Gail's journey is an incredible one. She's a lifelong artist. She has known great success. She's pivoted along the way. And i think you will all enjoy this episode so much. So sit back and listen to Gail's story.
00:02:11
Speaker
Hey friends, hey Lori, let's rebloom. am so excited about today. Lori, how are ya? I'm so excited because we are interviewing one of my friends, Gail Cabaker, who I have had the honor of traveling with twice now.
00:02:30
Speaker
And i am in total, total awe of her talent. And i know a little bit about her story, but I can't wait to hear a little bit more.
00:02:44
Speaker
Well, I can't wait to hear more and her accomplishments in incredible and let's welcome her on. Hi Gail, how are you? I'm so happy to be here.
00:02:57
Speaker
oh my gosh, we're going to have a great chat. So I will just share a little bit about you before we ask you to share more. um What I know is that you have, there was a discrepancy, Jamie and I were talking, I thought you said seven New Yorker covers, but is it 10?
00:03:16
Speaker
It's actually 10. I hope I've updated everything on all my stuff, but yeah, it's 10. 10? And let's brag on that. Come on. Come on. That is the last summer.
00:03:32
Speaker
Yeah, incredible. And you have had a an a long and illustrious career as an illustrator. And one of the things I can't wait for you to talk about more is your trip to Australia this year, because, oh, my God, what a trip of a lifetime. So we'll get into that.
00:03:51
Speaker
So really, what we love to do is we we focus on pivot points and times when you had a rebloom or you made a shift in your career. But we really like to start almost from the beginning.
00:04:05
Speaker
So do you want to tell us a little bit about who you were growing up and what your interests were and what you love to do and then kind of how that led into the next step?
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah. Great. Well, oh I always, i was the oldest. um My brother is super smart, 18 months younger.
00:04:29
Speaker
My sister's six years younger. i My talent was that I could draw. And so that's kind of how I always, um all i from as long as I can remember, i always loved to draw. And pretty quickly, i became, probably as a young teenager, i became really ah enamored with fashion and fashion illustration. And I and i knew from a really young age that I wanted to be ah fashion illustrator. And I actually had a babysitter.
00:05:06
Speaker
who ended up becoming a fashion illustrator for the Washington Post. And I remember cutting out her um illustrations and having them pinned up on my on my bulletin board. And um so I went right to art school out of college. My parents were super supportive.
00:05:27
Speaker
My dad was a writer and a correspondent. ah My mom was a mom. She wasn't creative, but she was crafty, which is funny because, and Lori and I have talked about this, I'm not crafty at all.
00:05:42
Speaker
Oh, I just saw what you posted with your granddaughter. So I beg to differ. I see more crafting in your future. I do. I think I was influenced in Mexico. um Anyway, so they were super supportive to for me to go to art school ah right out of college.
00:06:00
Speaker
So I went to the Academy of Art because they were kind of the only school that had a degree in fashion illustration.
00:06:11
Speaker
on the west coast and my parents had moved to LA and ah from Washington DC and I wanted to go to school in New York City. They didn't want me to be 3,000 miles away.
00:06:24
Speaker
We compromised on San Francisco. so um So I went to the Academy of Art and I just never thought about doing anything else. And I got out of school and I started freelancing right away. i had a super influential teacher my senior year, Gladys Parent Palmer came to our school and she was just like, you know, a very famous fashion illustrator that had this crazy loose style.
00:06:56
Speaker
And you know you learn how to draw very traditionally in art school. Well, she came in and she was just like, you know, super loose lines and gestural and completely changed the way that I um drew and and paint. Actually, I didn't paint yet.
00:07:16
Speaker
um But anyway, so I got out of school. I started freelancing right away. And I just kind of never had a real job and always been a freelancer. That's amazing. So what you doing when you moved into doing illustration, was it also mostly fashion oriented?
00:07:36
Speaker
um Yeah, I did fashion illustration um for a number of years ah in San Francisco. And then I met my husband, Peter Kitchell, who was a very successful at that time, watercolor artist ah selling.
00:07:54
Speaker
He was one of the first artists to have a lot of success selling large abstract watercolor posters and prints. So he was kind of on the, um,
00:08:08
Speaker
Yeah, he was one of the first to do that. i mean, royalties basically bought this land like he did really well. um And I met him during this time and he was building this house in Massachusetts and I just tagged along for the ride.
00:08:24
Speaker
And then we ended up moving here and not a lot of fashion work in the boonies of Western Mass. So I started branching out into general illustration, ah you know, food, travel, all that kind of stuff.
00:08:39
Speaker
And I always had an agent. I took out ads and like the workbook and the black book and, you know, pretty traditional illustrator, you know, with doing, um you know, a lot of advertising work and magazine and editorial. and And then um I started to paint.
00:09:02
Speaker
um And for, it took me a while to kind of find my voice with paint. And had,
00:09:15
Speaker
i had I've always had an agent until about six years ago. i always had an agent. I like working as a team. I'm a good team player.
00:09:27
Speaker
um But I started doing this new style that my agents didn't think was marketable. And then all of a sudden i was up for marketing. the my first cover of the New Yorker with my June brides, which was this new style that my agents didn't think was marketable.
00:09:45
Speaker
And I had about two months in between when they told me they were interested in it to when it actually happened. So I told my agents, well, you might not think it's marketable, but the New Yorker likes it. So maybe it is.
00:10:01
Speaker
and let's just put more of this work up in case I get it. So if it happens and people come to our websites, they're not just going to see one thing and everything else is different. Because the other work that I was doing was like um kind of collage and ink line. And it was really different.
00:10:24
Speaker
It was really different. I would love to see some of your earlier work. That would really be interesting to me to see. Were you, i know you love to draw people and you put that sign of life in in everything that I see you draw now when I'm traveling with you.
00:10:43
Speaker
Were you always enamored with drawing people even from the get-go? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's my fashion, you know, like always loved drawing women in beautiful dresses And then I became, i don't know, I've pushed myself over my over the years of, I mean, it's really only been less than 10 years I've been keeping an actual sketchbook.
00:11:05
Speaker
And it would it's really only in the last year that I realized when I'm using my sketchbook, I really only want to do stuff where there's people in it.
Incorporating People into Art
00:11:15
Speaker
So i you know I don't get that excited about doing a landscape. I don't get it that excited about doing a still life.
00:11:22
Speaker
So I just always make sure that I'm trying to put a person into, in some way, in some, can we it could even be abstract. And it's interesting, too, you know, we've learned from many of our guests, the seeds of inspiration that come along the way. And so sort of taking you back to art school and you were talking about that loose style.
00:11:45
Speaker
I see that in the New Yorker covers. I mean, as an untrained eye, but I see that beautiful loose style. Has that stayed with you your whole career? Or do you see do you see changes within your career that you like something and then maybe go down a path and then pivot to something else or?
00:12:03
Speaker
how How have you evolved that way? I mean, I've definitely had plenty of assignments where I paint, I scan, I collage and design and Photoshop, and it becomes like, you know, a million layers, super intricate, but it still looks fairly loose, but I know it's not.
00:12:26
Speaker
I know that it's like, oh, my God, like, you know, it's so ah complicated. But I've always tried it to give everything have the appearance of being loose.
00:12:40
Speaker
Now I get really excited when I do something and it's really only a painting. I don't mess it. I don't mess with it in Photoshop. Like to me, I mean, Photoshop's a great tool. I'll use it whenever I need it.
00:12:55
Speaker
But to me, my most successful ah work is that that, you know, I haven't done anything to it. Well, I got to witness you evolving a little bit, even on our recent trip, because we had Maru Godis with us, who her style is really loose.
00:13:17
Speaker
We were all kind of inspired and, you know, watching how she worked. And that that's one thing I want to thank you for, is you are a really good gatherer of people. And I think gathering with your kindreds or like-minded people and learning from each other,
00:13:34
Speaker
is really a great way to stay inspired and engaged and push yourself.
Teaching Art and Personal Growth
00:13:41
Speaker
So I saw you trying some things that were new to you, but it still felt like Gail.
00:13:46
Speaker
The way you use color, the way you put paint down and in shape and line and I was just totally in awe watching you work.
00:13:57
Speaker
And so I encourage people to find their tribe in that way. And even if you meet for coffee regularly and draw together or talk about your work or whatever, I think that's a really good way to just stay inspired.
00:14:14
Speaker
Oh, definitely. Yeah. And you also teach, which is another way. i know I teach, Jamie teaches, and I find that you get so many gifts back from teaching that are you know you feel like you're sharing, but everybody shares right back. And I always go away learning from learning different techniques or you know I'll share a technique and then watch people use it in a whole different way than I would have. I personally love that.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, it's interesting as you're saying that I was like, I was listening to you, but I was also thinking, what, what do I get out of teaching? And have to say, think I learn more about myself on an emotional communicative level with teaching because you're interacting with often 17 or 18 people all with their own stuff, all with their insecurities, their issues, their fears. Oh my God, like how many students are afraid to use black or afraid to draw a face or this or that.
00:15:29
Speaker
So for me, don't, I mean, I definitely like get inspired like, oh my God, what color is that? Like, I need that color. i I don't think that, um,
00:15:42
Speaker
So, yeah, I think for teaching for me has been a way of learning how to become almost like a better person. You know, what it's really um because I have a tendency to be um to really speak my mind.
00:16:00
Speaker
quickly sometimes. And with teaching, I've really learned to look at something, say something nice, really fast, you know, even if it's like a mess, like fires really nice to say quickly and then like take my time and figuring out, because ah believe me, i learned the hard way. Like I've had people cry. I've had people get upset with me, you know, like,
00:16:29
Speaker
I feel like it's been a real learning process of learning how to become ah good teacher. Well, and, you know, I think becoming a good teacher is part of, and and thank you for for teaching others. I know Lori does, and I do too. i think one of the things that you think about too is when the students come to you, first of all, they've put themselves out there. There's a level of fear just to even show up.
00:16:53
Speaker
And so, There should be a reward even at that. they've They brought themselves, they've they pushed aside some fears to actually come to the class. But I think what I get in teaching is that when you're doing exactly what you do, you're encouraging them, you're saying, yeah, you can do it.
00:17:12
Speaker
And you're giving them the that maybe the information, but also the encouragement to move forward subliminally, When I'm sitting here in my own world and going, I can't do this. I don't feel like doing it. And I'm like, you can do it. i' say words are coming right back to yeah And I think it just reinforces that we all go through those periods. We all have periods where we need to try something different. um I've been showing Lori. So i I'm a photographer.
00:17:43
Speaker
And I'm trying really hard to draw and I'm trying to hard to find my style and I've been playing with Procreate. So I keep showing her all these things. Look what I did. Look what I did. and I'm not quite there yet, but you know what? That's okay. I'm just having fun. I'm just having fun and I'm i'm fine showing it and I'm fine that it's no good. And she's like, looks good.
00:18:03
Speaker
Probably doesn't, but she's... i would i would I would give you suggestions. I just exactly i love that you're so giddy about it and you're having so much fun because I think that's when the magic happens.
00:18:18
Speaker
Like if you're dreading it, you hate it, whatever, you know, no good work comes out of that. So um just joy Joy. And that's the thing as a good teacher, we may be giving them tools or instructions, but we really hopefully are giving them joy. And I think then we get the joy back. That's what I at least think.
00:18:38
Speaker
Let's take a quick minute and thank our amazing sponsors. Our podcast is proudly brought to you today by Jet Creative and Urban Stems. Jet Creative is a women owned marketing firm committed to community and empowerment since 2013.
00:18:54
Speaker
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00:19:08
Speaker
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00:19:23
Speaker
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00:19:41
Speaker
Okay, so we went off on a tangent for Sorry, we did. No, no, no, we both, we all did. Anyway, um but i I'm curious about a time in your life when you were managing your daughter, who is a ah singer, musician.
Supporting Family and Personal Art Exploration
00:19:59
Speaker
And I know, i well, I assume that took up a lot of your your time and your life. And I'm wondering, were you, during that period, were you still creating? And were did you have a career of your own going simultaneous to that?
00:20:20
Speaker
Well, it's really interesting how, I betcha, if I look at the arc of my career, the During the periods like this time where I was really focused on my daughter, so her name is Sonia Kitchell, her career starting you know when she was, I mean, she got a record deal when she was 15.
00:20:42
Speaker
So for about four years, I was very, very focused on her career. And mine just kind of dropped by the wayside. I didn't stop.
00:20:54
Speaker
I just wasn't getting very many assignments. And at that time, I really didn't have a very, I didn't have a practice of painting on my own.
00:21:04
Speaker
So if I didn't have assignments, I wasn't making art. Like that's kind of how it worked. Like I basically was a commercial illustrator that mostly worked when I had jobs.
00:21:16
Speaker
So, and I didn't have a sketchbook practice, um you know, so when I was on the road with her, ah no, I wasn't working. And then when she was 18 and I was kind of gracefully asked to, ah you know, back off um and I mean, she didn't,
00:21:34
Speaker
She had a huge team, you know, like it was a it was pretty, you know, it was a big deal. And I still it I still kept an eye on things, but I didn't need I wasn't traveling with her anymore.
00:21:48
Speaker
um And all of a sudden I was like, OK, well. Well, OK, what am I going to do now? And I actually found a really good life coach and I did some sessions with her because i felt like I was at a crossroads. Like, what am I going to do? Like, what else would I do?
00:22:07
Speaker
You know, and she helped me realize that there really was nothing else that I wanted to do. And I mean, I can barely remember those sessions. I just remember that it was a really big turning point in me just kind of doubling down and recommitting to um probably making art for myself.
00:22:29
Speaker
That's probably when I started doing that. if i I could probably figure it out, and I should, ah because I would like to know. But i would guess that that's what happened.
00:22:42
Speaker
Because really... because i really hadn't done that very much. Yeah. So interesting because, you know, I've been with you on a couple of trips now and you draw pretty much everywhere we go and you draw incessantly.
00:22:58
Speaker
So I imagined you when you were touring with Sonia that you had your sketchbook and you were drawing backstage everywhere you went. Oh my God, how I wish I had, I would have the most amazing sketchbook documenting of that time. But i for years, I would look at, i had artist friends who would do these incredible sketchbooks and I would look at them and I'd be just like, oh, I wish I was a sketchbook artist. And I would buy the sketchbooks and I would never use them. But, and then I take them on vacation. I'd be like, oh, I'm going to be on vacation. I'll use it.
00:23:35
Speaker
And it wouldn't even come out of my suitcase because it felt like and And then a friend of mine was running a yoga retreat in Costa Rica and she had an extra spot and she invited me to come and I had a total breakthrough.
00:23:48
Speaker
All of a sudden I started drawing and painting in the sketchbook and I didn't care what it looked like. That's how, that's how I had my turn. Yeah. And the rest, there was a lot of people on that retreat, like, I don't know, 20, 25 people.
00:24:03
Speaker
And people would walk by and they'd go, oh, that's cool. I'd be like, really? I think it's a terrible drawing. You like it? And then I was like, it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter. doesn't matter. and and i I really, it was a complete turning point that i learned how to use a sketchbook and not care and have it be fun. And there was like no turning back after that.
00:24:29
Speaker
So now are you, when you travel, just as Lori had asked, when you're traveling, are you sketching each day or how, how, what's your thought process with your sketchbook? Oh yeah. When I travel now, it's like, I get to use my sketchbook every time I'm sitting in a cafe or in an airport or, you know, whatever.
00:24:50
Speaker
um ah So to me, because I don't, I don't use it that much when I'm home, honestly, like haveing i have a dedicated sketchbook to my granddaughters that, ah that we can talk about, but I don't, I don't make time to go sit in a cafe.
00:25:08
Speaker
i live out in the country. When I come, when I'm home, I'm very focused on painting in my studio. So what seems to have happened lately is my sketchbook is what I use more when I'm traveling.
00:25:22
Speaker
So for me, it's like just pure joy to be able to just not care, draw, not care if someone's looking over my shoulder, you know, whatever.
00:25:35
Speaker
So the painting that you're doing back in your studio when you're home, are they influenced by your travel journals or are these mostly projects like assignments that you're doing, editorial, and the New Yorker?
00:25:51
Speaker
I know you did some stuff for Makers Mark and Vital Voices. is ah Most of that, that's the work that's happening in your studio? Yeah, it's both. You know, like ah I go through phases where I have a lot of assignment work and then I'll have not very much and I have commissions. And I mean, i should be submitting New Yorker cover ideas all the time. And i go in spurts and i submit and I submit. and And then, you know, I get rejected and rejected and rejected and that i
00:26:23
Speaker
I take a break and then I start submitting again. And, um, so it's kind of all of it, but when I come back from traveling, ah this is why I usually, I've started taking a week after a trip, even our, our Mexico trip, I took an extra six days because I just want to have really quiet, focused paint time by myself.
00:26:46
Speaker
And when I teach with, uh, Jennifer Orkin Lewis, um, who goes by August Wren. She and I teach all over the world. And I have started taking a week now after we teach so that I can paint for myself because we do not get that much time to paint for ourselves when we're teaching.
00:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, you don't. Right. Right. ah So I'm going to change the focus of the conversation again, because we had these conversations when we were together. And this is about um how you, your diet and, and health, because I believe you've, you've made pivots in that
Vegan Lifestyle and Health Benefits
00:27:26
Speaker
world. And I think that's another really important thing to talk about.
00:27:30
Speaker
So can you kind of share that journey a little bit with her? Um, yeah, Well, both my parents died very young. My mom was 48. My dad was 57, both of cancer.
00:27:43
Speaker
And I've been a kind of a health nut since I was, I don't know, 23. you know, organic and blah, blah. but um about was,
00:27:56
Speaker
twelve years ago I watched a movie called Forks Over Knives. Oh no, okay, it started where I was going to a ah spin yoga studio and the fitness diva who ran the studio was super cool and I gained like 10 pounds over the years. They just crept up and crept up. And so I asked her if she'd help me lose 10 pounds And I illustrate my journey and write about it and I pitch it to magazines. OK, she's like, great idea.
00:28:28
Speaker
OK, let's start with a 28 day vegan challenge because she's ah she was a big big. She's a big vegan. So I was like, OK, I can do anything for 28 days. And then i part of our homework was we had to watch them. Oh, and then ah she formed a group around that.
00:28:45
Speaker
So was a Facebook group, daily email, a lot of really good support network. And it was hard. I mean, i wasn't even vegetarian. So it was a whole new way of um of cooking and eating for me.
00:29:01
Speaker
um But very quickly, i started looking really different. I started feeling amazing. And watching these movies, the most important one was Forks Over Knives.
00:29:16
Speaker
I started really um resonating with the connection between...
00:29:26
Speaker
one my It's okay. It's okay. There we go. Okay. It does. and You started, right go ahead. you start You started resonating with. I started really resonating with what these um movies were talking about, the connection between illness, cancer, and meat and dairy.
00:29:48
Speaker
It just made sense to me. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to stay vegan because ah I don't need, I believe this, this makes sense to me and I don't need to make my risks higher by continuing to eat this.
00:30:07
Speaker
And, and then how good it was for the planet and the animals, all that stuff started coming into. So it felt like my way of making a difference, my little way of making a difference.
00:30:22
Speaker
And, um, so yeah, so it's been, it's been a really, important journey for me and lonely one sometimes. I mean, you know, on our trip, i was i'm the I was the only vegan. I mean, Jennifer is happy to eat vegan whenever we're teaching and traveling together.
00:30:39
Speaker
um But, you know, usually I keep my mouth shut about it unless someone asks me because... ah Believe me, when you're with a group of people and you're the only one, it brings up stuff for people. You know, people feel like yeah they need to justify why they do what they do. And I'm just I'm just always like looking for ways to be as healthy as possible because.
00:31:03
Speaker
I have a lot I want to do and traveling the way that I, we do is like, I'm 65, you know, like I want to do this for a long time.
00:31:13
Speaker
And so, you know, I jog and I work out with a trainer twice a week and just really put a lot of energy and effort into staying healthy.
00:31:25
Speaker
The maintenance part of it is the hardest part. You know, it's like finding a way To live that doesn't feel like you're in um constant deprivation is always a little tricky.
00:31:41
Speaker
And yeah um so I think that's what people struggle with the most. I don't feel too deprived. And honestly, I just wrote a newsletter today and I started it out. but since I started it in a cafe after you guys left.
00:31:55
Speaker
And my weakness are k croissants. Like when I'm traveling, if I'm in a cafe having my soy latte and I smell fresh croissants, I have to have one. So, you know, I break my vegan rules occasionally. I'm not perfect. Occasionally. Well, for a croissant, I would break it. Yeah, you kind of have to. Well, maybe occasionally, but yeah.
00:32:16
Speaker
But for the most part, it's changed how you how you live and how you feel and And that's important for everybody, for everyone. And I have to say, i mean, i watched you cook and prepare meals. And i i think, you know, I thought maybe I could do this because i love I love everything that you prepared and shared with us. And I know you love being in the kitchen and...
00:32:44
Speaker
And oh, my God, we had the most beautiful kitchen in our mansion. Oh, my God. I know. We had a milk frother or this incredible coffee. Like we felt like I felt like I was royalty. Yeah. Like how what did I do to deserve this?
00:33:00
Speaker
You know, the thing is, is that what most people don't realize is that it's really not that hard. You just have to plan. right You can't eat this way on the fly. You have to plan, you know, you so so i'm a planner, you know, so it's kind of natural for me.
00:33:18
Speaker
Well, one thing that I've, because my word this year is move. So I've been trying to get more steps and trying to move my body. But also you're right about the planning, because the other thing that I've been trying to be consistent on is making some kind of really, really healthy stew or soup or something on Sunday that I can eat through the week because,
00:33:42
Speaker
You know, if I can just go in there and it's already ready and all i have to do is heat it up, that works for me. So yeah there are tricks that you can find to make this work.
00:33:55
Speaker
And I'm sure you have a ton of those. You should write a book about all of this, Gail. Yeah. yeah Okay. okay like I know I have a book in me and one of these days so i' I'll do it. I think you have several books in you anyway, but go ahead. think you do. Okay. So we've all, you and I, Gail, we could pivot with you on all these different tangents. I love it. So now I'm going to pull us back. I have a question.
00:34:19
Speaker
So Lori has a lifelong professional artist. I am not. um And many of our listeners are just kind of dipping their toes into the art world. And you mentioned something about having an agent, but no longer having an agent.
00:34:34
Speaker
And I know um from speaking with you that, you know, back when you started, obviously, you needed to have an agent. And now things with the internet and things have changed. How has that world changed for you? And how are you getting jobs? And what's available to folks if they're wanting to put their artwork?
00:34:52
Speaker
out in the world? That's two questions. Yes, it is. Sorry. and One, how's it changed? I'll answer that one first. I realized six years ago, i didn't need an agent. All I needed was a good lawyer.
00:35:06
Speaker
And I had a great lawyer who will look over contracts and give me really good advice because I hate contracts. so So Chuck helps me with my contracts.
00:35:18
Speaker
And now he actually has started negotiating for me, which is amazing. And, you know, ah that because really asking money,
00:35:31
Speaker
um ah Money is very hard for most artists. Yes. They usually sell themselves too cheap. And um so I'm pretty good at asking for what I want, but...
00:35:46
Speaker
You know, so I mean, he he just has he's helped me so much. So so um and I also have a network of artists, friends that I've kind of built this little network.
00:35:59
Speaker
And there's certain people like if I get a job, I know, okay I'm going to ask ah him what he would charge. Because I know he's going to, of all everybody I know, he's going to charge the most.
00:36:11
Speaker
And then I'll just say, well, I'm not at his level, so I'll just come a little under. um So I just have different people, you know, like Jennifer knows a ton about the licensing world, you know, not that I've done hardly any licensing, which is...
00:36:25
Speaker
So silly, because I know I could be, but it's just never happened. um But then the other question about um how do people like get into this?
00:36:40
Speaker
um This is something that we always ask whenever we teach our workshops or ah is what's your intention with your practice? Do you want to make a living at this or are you doing this just for fun and joy?
00:36:55
Speaker
Because there's very different, like yeah we we would give very different advice And, um you know, i just try to help people focus on what makes them happiest and what kind of work brings them the most joy. And just know that um when you come when you when you're starting from that place,
00:37:24
Speaker
kind of the universe works with you and it should work. um I talked to a student recently, the son of some friends who's going to, um I can't remember, Parsons. I think he's going to Parsons and he's in the illustration and he wrote me and he said, you know, would you have a conversation with me?
00:37:43
Speaker
And I said, sure. and And then I was like, before I got on the phone with him, i was like, don't be discouraging. Don't just focus on how hard it is to make a living, you know?
00:37:56
Speaker
So what I did is I just talked about how you got to be good for a young person. you gotta be good at everything. You gotta be able to animation and build websites and, and, and paint and draw. And, you know, like the more you can do, the more work you, unless you have a trust fund and you don't have to make money.
Financial Insights for Artists
00:38:17
Speaker
You know what I mean? That's the other piece that I always ask people. Do you have a husband that makes a ton of money? do you, or do you need to pay your mortgage? You know what I mean? Like, like, like let's get real.
00:38:29
Speaker
Like what's your motivation? You know? Yeah. Yeah. So interesting that we're talking about this because I just had this conversation with our daughter, Kenzie, this morning.
00:38:39
Speaker
sent her, we're at this place where we're, you know, she currently works, technically works for us, but she has a lot of autonomy and, you know, Steve wants to retire. I'll probably never retire, but there's the whole conversation of this transition and what that will look like. And so I wrote, I sent her these list of questions, things like, what do you need to make financially? Like, what does success look like financially for you? does success look like emotionally for you? What, what are your drivers? What are you wanting to, do you know, things that are really good to ask yourself if you are doing this professionally, really important. Yeah.
00:39:23
Speaker
Yeah. And, and the other thing that, you know, it's interesting, I teach social media, and I also have worked with it, we spent the summer in Chautauqua, New York, and, and i have had the benefit of working with a lot of young artists and talking with young artists.
00:39:36
Speaker
And I teach at the New York Botanical Garden. I teach artists and they need to know how to market themselves. And they're like, oh, I'm just drawing. Isn't it great? I'm like, no, you're in sales. You're you're in sales. You're in marketing. You got to do all this.
00:39:51
Speaker
To your point, not only do you need to know how to draw and have multiple levels of, you know, how you create art, but you also need to know how to put yourself out there and greet people and put hold put your head up and shake someone's hand and connect with people. and It's a lot.
00:40:08
Speaker
It's a lot. So talking about marketing and putting yourself out there, um Gail, you I want to talk about the Australia opportunity. I was thinking, here's the perfect segue to Australia. Here go. Yeah, the perfect because you'll tell us about how that happened. Well, okay, because the way that I got that job, well, first of all, it was from doing, being a New Yorker cover artist because um ah ah Tourism Australia was the client.
Transformative Experience in Australia
00:40:41
Speaker
Condé Nast Traveler was the team. And what they wanted to do is they wanted Condé Nast Traveler editor to take a New Yorker magazine artist on a trip to Australia and have the artist paint their experience of Australia. So I got i couldn't i got this email like eight months before,
00:41:06
Speaker
um sit sit you know talking about this project. Have you ever been to Australia? Would you want to go to Australia? i was like, no. And yes.
00:41:17
Speaker
And they said, well, we don't know if it's going to happen. And then i so I didn't hear anything for months and months. um and um And then finally,
00:41:29
Speaker
um sometime in August, I got an email. They said, it's happening. we are going to we We'd like to do a Zoom chat with you and um the potential editor and um just you know see just have a chat with you guys.
00:41:51
Speaker
So I didn't have it yet. And um so we get on the Zoom call and the editor is this young Asian guy probably 33 years old. And I had I think I had gotten his name beforehand. So I had looked up his social media.
00:42:06
Speaker
Very important. Afterwards, I found out they combed through my social media. Like they knew a lot about me before that Zoom call, you know. And um and I knew a lot about the editor because I had combed through his social media, you know, which he looked really good on social media, you know.
00:42:25
Speaker
Anyway, so we get on the Zoom call and very and all of a sudden they say, well, we're going to drop off. And we're just going to ask you questions that is just going to be you two on there. We're going to record it. And this is what we're sending to the client.
00:42:39
Speaker
So it was like we were auditioning. I had no idea. No idea. Oh, my God. oh So the two of us are on there. And, you know, luckily, we had good chemistry.
00:42:51
Speaker
It went well. we ended up getting the job and it it came together so fast. And thank God the timing, because Jennifer and I were teaching two back-to-back weeks in Italy. And I basically flew...
00:43:10
Speaker
from Massachusetts to l LA to Sydney, spent 10 days in Australia, then flew to Florence, recovered for six days and then taught for two weeks.
00:43:21
Speaker
So it was like a really intense five weeks. But what I learned, I mean, the experience in Australia was, oh my God.
00:43:32
Speaker
i mean, it was just like, it was completely life-changing in that we were a team of about 10 people. The Conde Nast team, director, producer, um the ah client coordinator, ah then the photographer who didn't do any photography, it was all film, the sound engineer, the hair and makeup.
00:44:01
Speaker
um And then we would always have a person or two members in it where whatever, wherever we were, we went to Sydney, went to Tasmania and we went to Kangaroo Island and okay. So we're staying in like, you know, incredible hotels.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yeah. you know they knew I was vegan. Like I warned them cause they talked a lot about how food was going to be a big part of this. And I was like, I hope the fact that I'm vegan is not an issue cause not going to fake it, you know? And, uh, and they were like, no problem, no problem.
00:44:34
Speaker
Um, But having before this trip, I was always felt very awkward and uncomfortable in front of a camera.
00:44:45
Speaker
Like in photographs, I would always be super stiff. And when Jennifer and I would try to take videos of ourselves, like, Laurie, you're so good at this. um You know, we would always just come off super stiff. And what i learned on this trip, first of all, when you have hair and makeup,
00:45:04
Speaker
everything god you know She was like my best friend for 10 days. you know like she I trusted her. She knew how I liked to look. She knew how I wanted my hair to look.
00:45:18
Speaker
Every minute we were filming and we filmed for like 12 hours day. and each in each place. um she was taking She was taking care of me, you know, and the photographer was just like this love of a guy from LA who he's just like,
00:45:39
Speaker
Don't worry. i I've got you, you know, like you are good. And he taught me how the, I like to call it the art of the lean. Like when you're standing there, don't just stand there, lean on something. All of a sudden you look more natural, you're more comfortable.
00:45:56
Speaker
So I took all of this kind of newfound confidence and knowledge with me Italy, you know, and i I, made some great videos with me and Jennifer.
00:46:07
Speaker
And when I'm photographing our group, i know I know what to tell people. So it's like, I'm constantly sending the yeah photographer, ah you know, I'll text him a photo.
00:46:19
Speaker
And I'm just like, I'm leaning, you know, like these great pictures of me in different places, just because he inspired me. But yeah, it was. um Okay, wait, I have a question. I've got a question. So are you, when you're in Australia, are you, are you painting in Sydney? Or is is it almost like your journals that you had been doing? ah no it was it's um Yeah, ah they definitely I painted on camera, kind of fake painting.
00:46:51
Speaker
for yeah For filming. And then, and i I mean, I drew a lot, but ah basically, my part of the deal was creating two paintings, one for Tasmania, one for Kangaroo Island, when I came home.
00:47:07
Speaker
that they would use. So they had all this filming of bits and pieces of me drawing and painting, but it was kind of all, I don't want to say fake, because I was i was drawing painting.
00:47:18
Speaker
And then when I came home after Italy, ah when I got to Florence, I did my sketches. so it was a little weird, because here I am, like with this incredible view of the du Duomo in Florence.
00:47:32
Speaker
And I'm like drawing Australia, you know. And I wanted sketches approved before I moved into Italy. Gotcha. So I did the sketches, got them approved, and then acted very, you know, i after five weeks, I came home and I just painted in my studio.
00:47:50
Speaker
And I had painted ah something in Sydney for myself that they ended up buying, which was awesome. So actually, they actually got three paintings from me.
00:48:01
Speaker
um So, yeah, so that was the deal. That's amazing. um Do you have any advice if you, if someone doesn't have hair and makeup and a great photographer and a, you know, it's a good team do you have advice other than the lean that you picked up that you apply to your, cause I've, I've noticed a big change in your reels and your, your storytelling.
00:48:28
Speaker
feel like you just had one in your sub stack today. That was beautiful. so Do you have any other suggestions? Yeah. Um, well... And like I have to do this. i i I sat down with the makeup artist, Marnie, at the end of the trip.
00:48:45
Speaker
And I was like, okay, tell me all your favorite products. Tell me what's your secrets. Like when you do my eyes, what are you doing? You know, for like, ah you know, old over 60 eyes. So she I have this whole um illustrated story that I keep meaning to do for older, you know, over 50.
00:49:07
Speaker
Here's some tips for you. um Okay, so first of all, I would say go get your makeup done somewhere. You know, like learn how to do your makeup if you care about that stuff.
00:49:20
Speaker
Go to a professional, get it done, get some good stuff so you can do it yourself. And then also have good lighting, you know, like in your studio.
00:49:34
Speaker
so And and see... how you look best, you know, like, and then you're so good at this, Lori. And then don't care.
00:49:44
Speaker
You know what I mean? Just put yourself out there and be yourself and don't care because honestly, those are the things that I care about, but some people, they could give a shit about wearing makeup.
00:49:56
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like, that's not important to them. I, you know, I just, I learned some, some tricks from her just about like concealer and foundation and like hair products and hair oil, you know, and like all these different things.
00:50:14
Speaker
And, um, I don't know that kind of stuff. it's being It's being authentic, too. I think it's just what you said, though. Some people care, some people don't, but it's putting that authentic your authenticity out there.
00:50:27
Speaker
And I think the more you do that, the more real, because that's what people want to, I mean, yes, it's going to be nice to look at someone that looks pretty, but when you're telling us the real, real we want to know real.
00:50:41
Speaker
And that's amazing. That's amazing. um So Jamie and I did some filming for freud and media company about a year ago, and we we did have hair and makeup. and I don't wear makeup usually at all.
00:50:57
Speaker
So for me, I would look in the mirror and think I looked kind of like a clown. So, so, you know, in my social media, if I had to worry about looking good all the time and my hair being in place and having great makeup, I would never post.
00:51:15
Speaker
Right. yeah Right. So for me, I just, I don't, I don't care about that stuff. Right. You know, that's me and somebody else, like you said, somebody else that's important and they should do what that makes them feel the best.
00:51:31
Speaker
I think sometimes we get so caught up in how we look, whether it be, you know, I look fat or I look wrinkled or i look this way. And many years ago, I took cry photography class and someone said, when you look at a picture of your mom or your grandmother, what do you see?
00:51:49
Speaker
and you see your mom. You see the person that you loved. You don't see wrinkles. You don't see that she was five pounds heavier or she needed to lose 10 pounds. You see the person that you love.
00:52:01
Speaker
And I think when we just put, ah if we have the courage to just put ourselves out there, people will see the people that they like and they know and they love. They're not seeing all our flaws. They really are not. And if they are, they shouldn't be our friends anyway. because They should not be our friend. Because you know what we've all got of.
00:52:20
Speaker
when i When I first met the photographer the first day of shooting, I told him, listen, I hate how my neck looks from certain angles from the side. Yeah. I hate my neck.
00:52:31
Speaker
And he's like, don't worry, I got you. And then in the final cut of the final videos, there's definitely a few neck shots that I like. Yeah. yeah what I was like, it doesn't matter.
00:52:46
Speaker
It totally doesn't matter. But, you know, I have to say when I'm doing portraits, I mean, I did a hundred portraits for ah Vital Voices for a book and an exhibition, all women, all ages. And I mean, it is a really tricky landscape when you're painting women like I like I painted Madeleine Albright.
00:53:09
Speaker
You know, Madeline's got a lot of age and jowls. And and ah and my first pass at her, you know, the feedback was, let's just take it back a little bit.
00:53:22
Speaker
Like, we don't want to... You know, yeah she doesn't need to be 20, but yeah no, but so there's ways to, to soften things so that there it's the most flattering portrait of the person, but it's still them.
00:53:38
Speaker
But I did find that the more classically beautiful, the woman Not that these women hardly ever got to give input, when but when they did, oh my God, the more beautiful they were, the more picky they were.
00:53:54
Speaker
Oh, that doesn't surprise me. No. Yeah. but I was like, are you kidding me? Like you are going to, you want me to like move the, that like your hair line, like a frack, like who's going to know? Like nobody, nobody sees that. Yeah.
00:54:10
Speaker
Isn't that funny? Isn't that funny? yeah So it's interesting that all of these pivots, we've we've said this earlier. there's ah I love Ina Garten's new um autobiography, and she talks about being ready when the luck happens.
00:54:24
Speaker
And I love that. you know, it's so interesting. Your style evolved. You were ready when the New Yorker happened. also loved that they kept saying no, or you and but you kept going back.
00:54:37
Speaker
I think, could you talk about, let me, I know it's going to make a point, but rejection is part of being in the art world and it's hard. It is really hard because you're like, gosh, darn it. I worked so hard on this. And What do you mean I don't like it? And can you talk a little bit about rejection?
00:54:55
Speaker
Some of my, that I think are the best paintings I've ever done in my life. And either, and I don't even get a response, much less a rejection. But you see, the problem is, is that sometimes, I mean, there's no rules with the New Yorker. There's no way to figure anything out. It's just like, you just never know.
00:55:14
Speaker
yeah, but basically rejection, ah just, you know, is like fuel to keep going, but,
Dealing with Rejection in Art
00:55:27
Speaker
uh, it's just given me a really tough hide, but will, I don't put myself out the way I used to when I was young. Like I don't cold pitch people anymore.
00:55:39
Speaker
You know, like I, I'm like, ah ah no, I'm not putting myself out that way, you know? Um, but, Um, I was just so lucky to be part of it. Actually, it's still up this exhibition of, uh, celebrating one the New Yorkers having their 100 year anniversary this year.
00:55:58
Speaker
So there's a lot of events around it. And one of them was this incredible show of original covers. And there was an opening for it right before our trip to Mexico.
00:56:09
Speaker
And I had two pieces in it. And, um, the, um,
00:56:17
Speaker
all ah these cover artists were there, some like really famous. I was so excited to meet all these people, some young, like they've only had one cover and, um, I'm tying this together.
00:56:30
Speaker
i met a couple of these, uh, women who had had one cover and one of them, I said, so I'm talking to one of them and I'm like, so do you submit all the time? And she's like, oh no, no, like I couldn't handle the rejection.
00:56:44
Speaker
And I was like, wow. Okay. Um, That's just interesting. I don't know how, you know, but where how far you get with that, but I guess some people do get asked to submit things.
00:56:59
Speaker
I don't, you know, i just send stuff, but some people are approached by the New Yorker to pitch, you know? So there's so many different ways that people get in there that it's like impossible to, uh,
00:57:13
Speaker
Well, I think the fact that you have 10 covers maybe shows the fact that you yeah give up and you're you are like regularly reaching out to them.
00:57:24
Speaker
You know, that's mean was four years in between my first and my second. So um that was a really rough four years because I thought I was in you know, when I had my first and and that first one really blew up. Like that was a really big deal because it was of ah it was um something very close to people's heart.
00:57:48
Speaker
You know, the um the yeah gay marriage. And um it just got it got a lot of press. Like I got a ton of local press. I got like it was a big deal.
00:58:00
Speaker
So then I'm just submitting and submitting and submitting and nothing for four years. I was like it was very hard to keep going. And then I had my second cover right after Trump was elected the first time.
00:58:15
Speaker
And I remember that it was like a terrible, you know, Like my, it was a, ah it was a political cover. And then mine was the joyful cover, like afterwards. Like, I think that they think about what people need to see.
00:58:32
Speaker
i think sometimes like when things are really dark, maybe they think people just need to see something joyful. Right. you know So yeah that's what I count on. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:44
Speaker
Well, good for you for not giving up. And I think that's, that's, that's a great piece of advice, actually, you know, to tell our listeners is don't give up and don't give up.
00:58:57
Speaker
Don't, don't give up. And in fact, we, we love to ask our, our guests to give some advice. What is some advice that has been given to you, Gail, that you sort of hold in your heart or you like to share with some of your students?
00:59:13
Speaker
um I think it, I just always say, does it does this spark joy for you? Like to paint this way, to draw this way, like what would make you feel joyful?
00:59:29
Speaker
um That's really important to kind of always... think about that because you know, people are just navigating so much fear and worry and like, does it look good or blah, blah, blah. All these things are going on in their head and so insecure and, and and to, to constantly try to come back to, well, does it make you feel good?
00:59:54
Speaker
Um, does it bring joy? Like, ah so I guess put your joy out there. That's what I i would say. um Yeah. One of the most important things.
01:00:06
Speaker
Well, watching you work brings me joy. oh thank you, Lori. think and our our listeners, please look up Gail's work. Take a look at her covers. Take a look at her beautiful website and all her artwork.
01:00:21
Speaker
Because she will definitely bring you joy. And she's incredible. Gail, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Some of this conversation definitely took a turn into unexpected territory.
01:00:34
Speaker
um Me too. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. We pivoted. well We like to surprise people. but Yeah. Well, thank thank you for reblooming with us. And to our guests, peace, love, and rebloom.
01:00:48
Speaker
Life is too short not to follow your passions, so go out there and let your heart plant you where you are meant to be and grow your joy. We will be right here sharing more incredible stories of reinvention with you.
01:01:02
Speaker
Make sure to subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode of Rebloom. Until next time, I'm Jamie Jameson. And I'm Lori Siebert. Peace, love, and Rebloom, dear friends.