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William C. Dietz: In Memoriam
298 Plays13 days ago
One of our earliest author interviews was with William C. Dietz author of Halo: The Flood and a number of other video game novelizations as well as a large catalogue of his own work. Bill passed away on March 15th and in lieu of our normal episode we decided to record an intro and replay the old episode that we did interviewing him. Rest in peace Bill.
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Transcript
Introduction and Tribute to William C. Dietz
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah. um You know, I'm not going to ask you what's absolutely wild. yeah Yeah. Given the tone of this episode that we're we're coming into. hey there, everybody. My name is Kevin. With me is always as Phil. And on today's show, ah a slight change in programming.
00:00:21
Speaker
ah we're We're sad to announce that one of our... He might have been the first person we interviewed on this show. was among the first. He was among the first. 2022 really early on. Yeah. Yeah.
00:00:33
Speaker
Um, William C. Dietz, Bill Dietz has passed away. I believe he was 80, 81. Um, or he was 80. Yep. He was 80. Oh, at least 80. Uh, yeah.
00:00:46
Speaker
Yeah.
Dietz's Influence in Science Fiction Writing
00:00:47
Speaker
Um, but he passed away, ah last night as of this recording or yesterday as of this recording on the, on the 15th, on the Ides of March, um So today, you know we're just talking a little bit about um remembrance of of him, and then we're going to just transition right into the old interview that we did with with Bill Dietz.
00:01:10
Speaker
I want to thank our patrons, as always. ah You guys make the show great. and I mean, it it would be worth doing if you weren't here, but you're an extra little sprinkle of spice. I want to thank And You Are Hiding, Song 85, Jesus Loves You, Kyle Seaman, Ruthless Mudder, Middle of Things, Sigma Sal, Sanguine Flatulence, Shia Lude, Chet Beaks, Dummy think Thick and Friendly Friend.
00:01:34
Speaker
ah Thank you so much for being a friend. Patreon.com slash PixelitPod. ah So Phil, what is your, how how are you feeling? how you How are you feeling with this? You know, it's it's ah it's a bummer. He was yeah he was ah not just early on in terms of the the authors that we had the pleasure of speaking with, um but he was one of our earliest, he wrote one of the earlier books that we read in Halo the Flood.
00:02:01
Speaker
um It was a, it's a, it's kind of surreal, uh, uh, in that sense where he's, he's left such a, a mark on writing for hire and, and science fiction and novelizations and everything like that.
00:02:17
Speaker
It's just a cool damn dude. And, and we got to find out personally, um, especially early on when we weren't quite used to interviewing people. yeah it was It was literally, poor Kevin, I think I literally was just like, hey, I reached out to some writers and a couple of them said yes. ah Are we going to do this? Let's do this. Let's do it.
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, and and it and worked out great, obviously. ah But yeah, for... or Somebody he that early on who wrote such a popular book yeah ah to sit down with us and chat with us and be really gracious with his time. And and he was just he was a lot of fun. was the second Halo book published, I believe. So yes Fall of Reach is first um by Eric Nyland. And then there's the adaptation, The Flood, which is the adaptation of the first game.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yes. Yes. ah Yeah, exactly. The the first one um was like the prequel, basically. Yeah, it was like the prequel to the game. Yeah, exactly. So when we got into the flood, we got into ah the actual game itself.
Dietz's Writing Journey and Discipline
00:03:26
Speaker
and And while there were a couple of things that that drove us a little nuts simply because it's early video game adaptation, I also still remember it being like really serviceable in the sense that he added some stuff here and there. He made it his own.
00:03:41
Speaker
um which is really cool. and and There's an amazing moment. he ah He added to this entire character of a um an elite who is kind of like the rival to to Master Chief throughout the entire book.
00:03:56
Speaker
That's odd. audio and ah he finally catches up to Master Chief and like a fucking elevator falls on him or something like that.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah. eight He has fun with it. Like there was a lot of fun in the way that he writes. um I mean, this guy, he was prolific. he He wrote, he wrote in the star Wars universe. He wrote a trilogy for star Wars. He wrote mass effect hit men and star craft. So,
00:04:29
Speaker
We're not done with Bill. Yeah. No, we'll be back. We'll be back reading his stuff again at some point. He wrote he wrote the the novelization for... ah Well, it was the... it was the we It got pointed out to us through the resistance...
00:04:45
Speaker
um was it the the resistance ah fan page or something like that yeah yeah like post about it ah from from Bill's account where it was announced from his from his family that he had passed away yeah yeah So yeah, it, it's, I, the, one of the things that sticks with me, it's something that has, has been in the back of my mind as I'm in my forties now.
00:05:15
Speaker
So he didn't, he, he didn't publish his first book until want to say 1985. And yeah he would have been about 40. Yeah. He was, he was about 40 when he, when he gets his first book published and he would talk about,
00:05:30
Speaker
And I believe it's in this interview. I can't remember if he said it on camera off camera, but he would talk about how was like, all right, well, I can write a book a year, right? So a book's like, what, 60,000 words? I write 5,000 words month,
00:05:46
Speaker
12 months, so I'll have 60,000 words and I'm going to do that every year. And so did that every year and I did
Writing for Hire vs Traditional Book Writing
00:05:54
Speaker
that for the first 10 years of my writing career. And after 10 books, I said, okay, I can quit my day job and focus That's right. And I remember that so clearly because I was like flabbergasted. I was like, it really is that simple. Just to hear someone break it down that simply, like focus getting 5,000 words out in month.
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah. and yes And then move on to the next month and do it again. Right. and And it's just and I'm just sitting here. and now and and now about, you know, four years later, i i have I've written one novel that I'm shopping around. I'm working on another one. And I don't think that's a coincidence. Like, yeah, we've talked to, you know, Bill, we've talked to a lot of, you know, ah great writers on the show. And the dirty little secret for us on the show is that. ah Half the time, it's just inspiration for us in terms of our personal projects. you know like we're We're happy to get these guys' words out to you, but they're also acting as kind of like you know mentors for the evening. Yeah. um
00:07:04
Speaker
And these guys are the ones who do it. like These are... These are you know the writer of the working class writers of the world, the the right for hire guys. And and there's ah there's a yeah a doggedness you have to have to just keep at it like that. And that's who you want to talk to.
00:07:20
Speaker
yeah if Yeah. If you need that kind of inspiration. You know, we've corresponded. We haven't spoken directly with S.D. Perry, but we've corresponded with her. Absolutely. You know. Alan Foster was was lovely. Alan Dean Foster was lovely. Yeah.
00:07:35
Speaker
You know. um Oh, wow. We've talked to some really kick-ass people. We have. And Bill was a big, big part of that. Bill was a huge part of that. Yeah.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah. So we're, we're really sad to see him go. ah i'm I'm glad that he lived such a full life though. And, and, and it is damn impressive. Like you said, to, to get started in your writing career in your forties.
00:08:01
Speaker
And and just pick it up from there and make it happen the way he did. That's that's just have so much like the the man had a catalog yeah um of books, both work for hire and, you know, personal um you know series that he would work on.
00:08:20
Speaker
Um, that is nothing to sneeze at for, for someone who started in their forties and just said, ah one book a year. And that, that worked for him.
00:08:32
Speaker
Um, that worked that, you know, you can go on, you know, you can go on, on Goodreads. And if you go to his author page, uh, there are people who posed questions to him on his author page that he answered.
00:08:46
Speaker
Oh, you see, that makes perfect sense to me. but I, I believe that 100%, you know? you know Yeah. Cause he just, he, he, he, he was, he was that kind of guy. He was like, of course I'm going to talk to these, these people. Of course I'm going to give them their advice. Like,
00:09:03
Speaker
Why wouldn't I do that? it It would never have occurred to him to to you know say, you know what, guys, I don't have time to to come in and chat with you for a little while for your show. You can tell he was that kind of a guy.
00:09:15
Speaker
yeah ah he just He wanted to share the craft. He wanted to share the excitement of it, ah the nerddom of it all. um Very, very, very excellent person. We're really lucky to have met him.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah. And, ah and yeah, just a, just a wonderful guy. Alice, Alice Rose from the game library, ah friend of the pod, previous guest ah mentioned ah that they had ah interviewed him as well. And he was just a, ah wonderful, a good kind man to talk to.
00:09:49
Speaker
So RIP bill. You will be missed, but absolutely we are we're thankful ah to ah to continue to talk about the legacy that you you leave behind.
00:10:01
Speaker
Absolutely. and And we're going to be talking about you a lot, and that means you live forever. That you live forever. Thanks for the time. Thank you for your words. Now back to the earth with you.
00:10:17
Speaker
I got shit to do Gotta raise these onions, bitch. You know who else has to raise onions. Who? Hey there, everybody.
00:10:29
Speaker
Welcome back to Pixel It. That was the best one so far. That was the best one so far. My name is Kevin, alongside with me as always is Phil. Hello.
00:10:41
Speaker
And today we have a very special episode for y'all. We are talking to author William C. Dietz, the writer of Halo the Flood.
00:10:55
Speaker
He's going to be on the show talking to us, us two podcasters. i say Yeah, two schmucks with microphones. About how that book happened. And I think i think he answered some some pretty interesting questions, don't you think?
00:11:11
Speaker
I ah was, yeah, he was he was a very informative, very knowledgeable, really stoked to be here. ah he He was so generous with his time and... and it was ah It was terrific to to actually be able to put the person to the book that we talked about for five hours. Yeah, exactly. So it was it was good to put a a face and a voice to the to the name and the words of the book.
00:11:42
Speaker
um he He confirmed some suspicions that we we've had we have and have had ah out loud, not just about this book, but previous books that we've read yes are regarding um regarding involvement of others, let's just say, yes in the writing process, in the in the adaptation process. Yeah.
00:12:09
Speaker
So I think it's a fun conversation. um And, you know, we'll ah we'll we'll talk to you. ah We'll talk to you next week um with what are we doing next week? Oh, we got Ninja Gaiden with our next week. i got Ninja Gaiden.
00:12:28
Speaker
with our with our good friend, Aaron Hess from Oops All Monsters. So hell yes. So this is going to be really good episode. Yes. Yes. All right. Well, take care, of everybody, and enjoy the interview.
00:12:41
Speaker
Have fun. Yeah. Thanks for thanks for jumping on. This is this is this is really cool. I think I kind of mentioned to Kevin and, you know, that, you know, there's a thing in in the writing community has been for a long time that right work for hire, you know, is is not thought of highly in literary circles. It's, you know, it's scut work in the view of many. And but I disagree. You know, I think that it's participation typically in some kind of an effort that a whole bunch of people have already been involved in and they've created something cool and it's a lot of fun and it's very creative to, you know, add your little touch to it.
00:13:28
Speaker
And
Challenges of Novelizing Video Games
00:13:30
Speaker
I don't see that as being in some way, you know, scut work. No, no, it it makes me think a little bit about it makes me think of ah like pulp novels, you know, where it at the time it was, you know, it's pulp. It was very, you know, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am style writing. But nowadays, ah you know, the authors, you know, H.P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, people like that are legends now.
00:13:57
Speaker
That's right. So it yeah it it makes it it's really in the eye of the beholder. It is. I mean, the line between a Heinlein science fiction novel and the kind of thing you're talking about is very thin, you know, and ah it's very easy to go across the line and and go to pulp, but it's also easy to do something without knowing it that's really great. and like Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah. let's just get into it. then Yeah. yeah We got some questions. Actually, I mean, based on what we're just talking about right now, maybe for our listeners, like explain a little bit about the work for hire process, what that how that differs ah from just sitting down and writing a book.
00:14:43
Speaker
Well, you know, so um a typical book, and that's what I do is is typical books. And I've written like more than 60 novels at this point.
00:14:54
Speaker
um A typical book for a publishing company like, let's say, Penguin, who I worked for for 30 years, is a deal where you know you pitch an idea and if if they like it, um they say, hey, that sounds pretty interesting. Give us some more depth on that. You do an outline, you do a treatment, you talk to your editor and so on.
00:15:20
Speaker
Eventually, that turns into a contract. And you sign it and you get some money up front and you go write the book and then you turn it in and hopefully it does well.
00:15:34
Speaker
And but everything in that book is determined. The content of the book is determined by you. the cover of the book, the you know way it's edited, to the typography, all of that is determined by the publisher.
00:15:48
Speaker
work for hire is different from that model and that um what you're doing is you are being hired like you might hire a brick mason to build a wall you're being hired to uh to do a job and uh that building a wall of words yeah broke text perfect exactly that's that's that's a really good uh simile so uh And because you're a workman or work woman, as the case may be, um the terms of the contract are basically do what we say and deliver a certain kind of product at a certain time for a certain price and please be on time and all of that, you know. And
00:16:34
Speaker
um So that's one thing that makes it different is that they're telling you what to write. You're not you know coming up with that on your own. They're basically usually in early meetings. They're saying, okay, Bill, we've now got we brought you a board to write this novel, and but here's what we have in mind. you know And then they pitch you with whatever it is, except it's not a pitch in the sense that I can say no.
00:17:02
Speaker
yeah right right It's a description really of how they want me to take their character, of their universe and all of that and, and right you know, work with it. so So that makes it a lot different. And another thing that makes it different is is that instead of working all by yourself and, you know, wherever you like to work, um you're working in an environment, maybe virtual, but you nonetheless, you're working in an environment where you're part of a team.
00:17:34
Speaker
ah right So, you know, let's take ah Halo the Flood as an example of that. So, you know, the Bungie team at that time, you know, had whatever number, let's just say 15 people. I don't know what it really was. well it's But it's something in that area. Yeah. yeah and These people had already, when I came on the scene, put out two games that were very successful. They um had a subculture like you do at work, right? You know, and their personalities and there's people with talents and and there's people with flaws and there's all of that. And, you know, so you're walking into a team situation
00:18:20
Speaker
because we're all human beings and there's a lot of nuance and a lot of stuff. And you're trying to learn very quickly, ah particularly if you get to meet face to face, which I did in the case of Halo the Flood, because Bungie was up here right outside Seattle and I live in that area. So, you know, I could go see them directly.
00:18:40
Speaker
But... You know, you in that kind of a thing, though, you start to run into this, um not only a culture, but a shared understanding of the project that you don't have.
00:18:55
Speaker
So do you walk in the door and you say, hey here I am. And boy, it's fun to be here. And I have seven great ideas, you know, and you roll those out and I'm not dumping on bungee here. I'm just using them as an example. yeah of course They go you know, well, I don't like that first one that master chief would never do that.
00:19:14
Speaker
And then, you know, I don't like the second one. The covenant doesn't work that way. And I don't like the third one, you know, and and so on. And you, you know, um, And that's the deal is work for hire. They are right. You are wrong. And you need to accept that. You have to come humbly to the situation.
00:19:34
Speaker
That's really it. You know, ah Kevin and I both went to grad school together. we we were We met in a ah ah TV writing class. And one of the things they told us when we were writing spec scripts As they said, if you have your heart set on a certain TV show that you want to write for, don't write an episode of their show because they already have in mind everything and they'll be able to pick every good idea you have apart.
00:20:05
Speaker
But another TV show might look at that and go, oh, this is a great episode. I'll I ought to tell them about you or something like that. That's right on. I think that was good advice.
00:20:16
Speaker
Did you have any preconceived ah ideas about the Halo universe that they just shot down beforehand? Or did you kind of go into it fresh? Well, yes and no. So like can we back up for a second? Do you want to about how I even got involved? and Yeah, please. Please go right ahead.
00:20:33
Speaker
So at the time, you know, that this all went down 2002. Yeah. and two um you know I had a reputation for writing military science fiction. And so that qualified me, you know I guess, in their eyes.
00:20:51
Speaker
and you know And so ah i i got a call from my agent indicating that that there was this possibility of this work. And it was this thing called Halo of the little Flood. And I said, I've never heard of it. And I never had.
00:21:06
Speaker
And they said, well, it's supposedly a really cool property and it's going to be really great. and But it's not, you know, you're not writing a novel, you're writing a novelization. Well, I knew what that meant.
00:21:19
Speaker
And that's something too, your listeners might be interested to kind of sort out for themselves is this notion that, you know, um a novel for a hire is like,
00:21:31
Speaker
You're inside a universe that somebody owns, but you're allowed to create something fresh, a novel from start to finish. But a novelization is taking the game, in this case, Halo of the Flood, and simply turning the game into a novel. And I'll come back to that in a minute.
00:21:50
Speaker
That's like considered by literary people to be even one step lower You know, scum. That's like the scum that lives under the scum. Right.
00:22:06
Speaker
So that's not considered to be a real thing that you want to you know advertise with your with your career typically, but but I do. sure Anyway, so ah I got this thing you know from my agent and I said, well, I need to think about it. you know in And particularly given that that he already knew that the timeline was was going to be basically three months.
00:22:31
Speaker
And, you know, typically even a fast, I'm a pretty fast writer. That just is my nature. And I often write a book in half a year, but three months is really, really crazy. That's a lot. No joke. And so I went to the source of all knowledge where games are concerned, which is the GameStop in my neighborhood, right? Yeah.
00:22:53
Speaker
Nice. You know, go to the to the guy behind the counter who's got the long hair, the tattoos, and all the requisite stuff going. And I said, you know, um I've been asked to work on a project called Halo the Flood. And I said, you know, is that game any good?
00:23:10
Speaker
goes, oh, dude, that game is fabulous. we can't We can't even keep copies here. i mean, it just flies off the shelf and people love it and everything, you know? And I thought, okay, well, you know, if the guy at GameStop loves it, then, you know, it must good. People like yeah. So that's all the research I did there.
00:23:30
Speaker
that I went back and i and i said that I said that I would do it. And so now coming back to your original question, there were meetings off the top with the team to kind of establish what was what and what the tone was, what they were looking for and all of that.
00:23:50
Speaker
And they were looking for ah straight on novelization of the the game. And I said, I can't, I just cannot get completely there.
00:24:04
Speaker
I said, is there any opportunity for, you know, me to inject new material in the cut scenes? and You guys, you know, um, have a background in that television writing. So, you know, what a cut scene is, but it's at, you know, point where everything dips to black and, um, you know, time passes and the, um,
00:24:26
Speaker
computer technology that runs games, you know, rewinds itself, so to speak, and gets ready for the next level of the game. And I said, right there at those at those points, it's a natural place where I could introduce characters that don't exist in the books and, you know, and and give a different perspective.
00:24:49
Speaker
Maybe, you know, take the point of view of some covenant, you know, characters and and so on none of which had been done up to that point. And I said, I really need that in order to do this project. Otherwise it's just mind numbing, know, craziness to just grind my way through and,
00:25:07
Speaker
you know, say, and then he turned the corner and drew his pistol and then he shot, you know, all of that. So they, you know, to their credit, I think they they said, yeah, okay, obviously we want to approve what you do and we don't want you can't kill off the chief and, you know, stuff like that, obviously.
00:25:29
Speaker
but But go for it and let's let's see you know how that turns out. And so I did. And it depends. you know So you can go online, look at the reviews. And some people say, look at the novel and you know on Amazon and their reviews say, this is a piece of crap. It's just just a you know retelling of the game. If you've played the game, you don't need the book. But then other people do give me credit.
00:25:56
Speaker
for having inserted the additional stuff. And they clearly enjoyed it. And I would say that if you look at the Halo games now, Some of the things that I put in there, like politics between the different alien species and each other, you know, that, the emphasis on Marines and that whole thing.
00:26:18
Speaker
um You know, some of those things I think I can claim a little bit of credit for. and And here I am claiming it. So, you know, just... No, and it's it. Oh, and that's the thing. That's kind of actually where we landed as we were reading through the book and and kind of recapping it episode by episode. We um we loved this. Basically, any scene that didn't have Master Chief in it, we were like, this is great. and like And then when we when we when it got to mastery, he's like, well, this is basically this is just what you do in the game. And it's and and that's one of the things with that we found is that when you have a game like the things that he does in the game are thrilling and interesting for game's sake
00:27:06
Speaker
But when you're reading them, they become less so only because it's like, well, there's no he it almost feels like there's no stakes, you know, for for him.
00:27:18
Speaker
But for all the other characters, you have McKay, you have even Yaya, who became our favorite character of all time. We loved it. we Every time we had a yay-yap section, it was like, all right, we're back with yay-yap. It was great. We loved it. You can see that character. yeah Have you guys played Halo Infinite?
00:27:42
Speaker
No. Okay. Well, when you play it, which I assume you will at some point. Eventually, yeah. You'll notice that you know all of those little grunts running around, they share a certain common characteristics with the original. Absolutely. It works well to this day.
00:28:04
Speaker
That's amazing. At least that's my subjective opinion. yeah I'm glad you guys liked that. It was something that that meant a lot to me. Well, that really is the challenge, isn't it? you know when you're Now, to get the main plot line of the game, did you ah play through it yourself? Did you watch a playthrough? headed Or both? you know How did you go with that?
00:28:28
Speaker
That's a really great question, Phil. the you know So, like I said, I'd never heard of it. So the first thing I had to do was buy an Xbox. And the second thing I had to do was to, you know, play through the game, as you suggested, just see if I could get through how hard was it to get through, you know? Right. Well, I started out like on normal and, you know, which I was used to playing. And then I thought, oh, this is stupid.
00:28:53
Speaker
What you want to do is go on easy so that, you know, you can just see the outlines of everything, pay more attention to the flow and so on than the actual action.
00:29:03
Speaker
do that first and then play it on normal and, you know, and, and, um, and ramp it up. So I did that. And then the really hard part came where having got the feel for it and understanding how it works and all of that, I had to go through, you know, and actually write down, um you know, everything that happened. So, you know, like a little bit, stop and say, you know, and then the master chief went up over the hill and wow, then suddenly there was this construct there and You know, there was a great blue light around it and a spaceship. Yeah, know you know what I'm saying. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually had a specific moment that we talked about in the game where Master Chief is sniping people from a distance. He's sniping Covenant from a distance and then he's lost track. He's got blinders on, basically, loses track of what's right around him and basically gets jumped on by some jackals or something along those lines. and i And I said to Kevin, I said,
00:30:07
Speaker
That happened to me when I was in playing the game. Do you suppose that happened to him when he was playing it? that's one of the interesting things. We all know this, of course, because we we've played a lot of games, but yeah um there's enough variation in what could happen to you in that game that, you know, that might have happened to you or might not.
00:30:28
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. that's that That's helpful. So the version that that people saw of the game was the one that happened to me, but they probably experienced it slightly differently. you know Right. we found Yeah, we found out. so right So it was three months to turn around 85,000 words. Is that what the contract said? That's what the contract called for. I sent you that little snippet. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:52
Speaker
now that ah have you have you Do you find that in other ah work for hire jobs similar to this one, maybe in the video games industry, that that kind of follows a route? That's about right. Yes, about 85 to 90,000 is very typical. You know I like i I wrote a hitman novel, which was not a novelization.
00:31:13
Speaker
It was a novel. It was about that long. And for example. but in But in three months? no No, no. I think think I had six months or or maybe even more to write that. and Right.
00:31:31
Speaker
Yeah. But it was fun. And that that had its own strange flavorings and everything, too. you know Oh, yeah. Hitman. We actually, in the process of looking you up, that was me finding out that you'd written a Hitman novel. And I think that was me finding out there was Hitman novel. So I was all right, we better put that on the list. Bill, did you have any contact or discussion with Eric Nyland? Yeah.
00:32:00
Speaker
yeah Absolutely. No, I know Eric. or haven't seen him in years. I used to see him all the time at science fiction conventions. Sure. You know, as you know, we haven't had any science fiction convention in a while. Sadly. Right. Yeah, sadly, indeed. But no, and and, you know, he was very much involved in part of the team there yeah and an important part of the team. And he, of course, wrote Halo you know Reach, and which was a great book. Everybody loved that book. And it was the precursor for what I did.
00:32:34
Speaker
Right. And, you know, so, yeah, he he did a great job and he'd be a great guy to talk to He'd be able to give you a lot of that, you know, inside stuff, you know, about what it was like to be on the team and be writing stuff.
00:32:50
Speaker
ah you know, a novelization at the same time. yeah as i was a different book yeah Yeah, because I was curious if he had to provide you, because I noticed you had a couple of tie-ins to events that happened in Fall of Reach ah ah around the character of Major Silva.
00:33:10
Speaker
um So, yeah, it it was ah it was a neat little thread to follow. Right, right. Did they keep some sort of a Bible or something? Um, good question. I'm trying to remember, um Not, I know they gave me materials. It's been 20 years. I know they gave me materials. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah.
00:33:32
Speaker
But not on the scale that Lucasfilms did when I wrote the novellas for Jedi Knight. You know, I mean, box after box got shipped to my door. Art, you know, got shipped.
00:33:47
Speaker
You know, um stuff that I have hanging on my wall, which is, I could probably sell it at a convention for a lot of money. And you know it that was and then they had a Bible so strict you know so and so complicated. i mean you know It just covered every single book that had been done, all the movies, fit the whole thing together.
00:34:11
Speaker
You know, it was it was intense. And that sounds about right, because when I talked to David Fox, who was one of the earliest members of Lucasfilm Games and ran the studio briefly, he he was talking about how at Skywalker Ranch, they just have they just have material and material. Like all of this material set aside and even him just as force of habit when interviewed him several years ago, he said, oh yeah, I have photocopies of literally everything I ever did Lucasfilm that he sent me. And the ranch, I got to go to the ranch, guys. I just thought. Oh, that's too cool. Tell us about the ranch. Tell us about the ranch. Don't leave anything out. And, know, it's great. I went with my editor. She flew in from New York, San Francisco, and I came down from Seattle. And, you know, and so we rented a car and we drive out there and she's navigating and she's saying, so this place doesn't have a sign, Bill. There's no sign. There's no anything. All there is is a black post office box.
00:35:25
Speaker
but you know mailbox and, you know, heads, I forget some numbers on it. And that's what we have to watch for. And sure enough, up comes this thing and it looks like you're turning into a driveway, maybe to a trailer home or something like that. And you turn in and the road gets bigger and everything. And then this, this house that Lucas built appears and then the library next to it. And then the shed, you know, the big, buildings where all the computer stuff was going on. That's amazing. It was it was pretty cool.
00:35:56
Speaker
Now, you were talking about the team before. How often, ah you know, writing for hire, working with this team, how often would you say you were going in and meeting with them versus just, you know writing from home or something like that?
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, not that often. um You know, there was the initial meetings and then it was mostly just from home and and on the phone and that kind of stuff. Zoom and stuff wasn't what it is today, obviously 20 years ago. Sure. So there wasn't as much of that kind of you know video meeting or whatever. In fact, I'm not sure there were any back then.
00:36:31
Speaker
um And you know once it was on track and of course I had an editor who back in New York who was tracking what I was doing. And and I think I was sharing you know stuff as it came out and he was sharing it with them.
00:36:46
Speaker
and So there was some real time editing and checking and feedback. And they're telling me, hey, back off on this bill or hey, this is this works. You can keep that. right And you know so that was that was that was going on.
00:37:00
Speaker
But ah I have to say that you know I came to to writing late. My first novel was published when I was 40. So I've never been a young man in science fiction.
00:37:13
Speaker
You hear that, Kevin? I got eight months. I got eight months. You have eight months, Phil. And I'll be same schedule as Bill here. Because, you know, like I had promised myself when I was in my 20s that I would write a book, but I got to be 39. I hadn't started.
00:37:29
Speaker
And I sat down and wrote the book. I said, I got to keep that promise to myself. I'll write the book. It won't get published, but I'll write the book. So I wrote the book and I sent it in and Ace bought it the first place I sent it the first time I sent it. Holy cow.
00:37:45
Speaker
That's amazing. wasn' it It wasn't because I was really, really you know great that I was some amazing author. A couple of years later, I was having lunch with my then editor at Ace Books. And by that time we knew each other. And, you know, so she felt she could say this to me, you know, she said,
00:38:04
Speaker
I was recounting how wonderful it was when I sold that book. And she said, well, you know, the thing about that book was, Bill, it wasn't that great a book, but we needed some of that shit right at that time. you Right place, right time. I'll take it. it, baby. I love it. So, yeah, again, no respect. None.
00:38:29
Speaker
Anyway. Hey, man, you're the one who decided who you wanted to write sci fi. We can't. There's that's just an in grateful fan base. But so anyway, we we digress.
Dietz's Experience with Various Franchises
00:38:45
Speaker
Oh, I got a good I got a question for you. yeah were are Without without breaking any ah NDAs or anything like that, ah were was there anything that you wanted to put in the book that they just came down on hard and just went, no, absolutely not.
00:39:01
Speaker
That's good question. um
00:39:06
Speaker
i don't, you know, I don't remember them saying, you know, no to any of my little segments, but I remember them giving guidance about aspects of those things that they liked and didn't like.
00:39:20
Speaker
I don't remember all the refinements of that, but um I think the one thing that bugged me that I felt badly about, you know, was the end of Halo the flood, as you know, they blow the ring up.
00:39:33
Speaker
And they told me everybody that you create in these interstitial spaces, for lack of a better description, is going to have to die when the ring blows up.
00:39:44
Speaker
And, you know, I didn't like that. Yeah. Well, we're we're still holding out hope that Yaya like pulled a Boba Fett somehow and crawled out of the the pit. and Maybe he did. you just Get some one shots. never know. I think i think i i'm I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Yeah. And that's something that we we we agreed with was that it was because it was it was such a nice dramatic arc with all of these interstitial characters.
00:40:13
Speaker
And then it ends up that they kind of have to have a a quick like their loose ends have to get tied up really quickly at the end as Master Chief is basically finishing everything up.
00:40:25
Speaker
So it was ah it was a bargain that I had to agree to if I wanted to have. that additional material, and I thought it was worth it. so Sure. Well, in a way, it kind of frees you up, doesn't it? you know Because whatever choices you make, and it it all just kind of, the slate's wiped clean in the end. so It's true. And of course, you know to the extent that you do that, and this is something that probably people who read the the novel and played the game probably didn't think about, but but from a strategic aspect, a writing aspect, which you guys would
00:41:01
Speaker
understand, um you know, yeah in ah in a story, if you kill off a few people that that folks like, it really adds a certain amount of, you know, suspense and and tension and and all of that to the book because they go, this crazy son of a gun will kill anybody off in this book. Sure. I mean, ask- We don't know what's coming, you know. Ask ah ask George R.R. Martin. He's- he's lord oh lord oh lord yes i i actually remember when uh r.a salvator killed uh chewbacca and uh and what was it net uh prime oh right it was one of the later books one of the new jedi uh order books but yeah he yeah prime vector prime yeah he he had a planet he had a planet crush chewbacca yeah the only way you could kill that furry son of a you had to crush him with a moon man
00:41:57
Speaker
Yeah, that that was was what that was ah that was a turning point with certain geeks. Right. Well, you know, none of us bought that. So ah so what what are any ah any other difficulties of adapting a video game to a novel that you didn't run into with the other adaptations?
00:42:18
Speaker
Well, sometimes, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I wrote one, you know, that I'm not gonna get into because I don't wanna name names here. Sure, of course. all that yeah But I mean, sometimes the companies, they'll be the the person who's kind of the owner of the franchise, you know, the the big boss or whatever is exerting so much control that, you know, that they're basically telling you how to do everything and they're not satisfied with anything they haven't done and so on. And, you know, that just, that that really can kill something. That's one possibility.
00:42:56
Speaker
Right. And, you know, another one is where you sign on, and I'm thinking of a different book now, you sign on to do, you know, something and um they give you orders. And we were talking about kill off characters. They give you orders to kill somebody off and to accomplish certain things for their overarching plot.
00:43:14
Speaker
You do that and all of their fans go crazy, you know, and spend like was your idea yeah ah said to spend the next six months flaming you as a result. right So, you know, there are dangers, you know, definitely. yeah and I didn't even think about that, that one of the inherent challenges is the fan base.
00:43:36
Speaker
right yeah You got to keep everybody happy. Yeah, absolutely. they They can get really really up in your grill without a doubt I absolutely believe that now yeah think one of the other challenges of writing when you're older um is and I've had this experience I wrote
00:43:59
Speaker
the two or three novels in the resistance series that Sony had the resistance games you know and which I liked a lot I i love first person shooters and And those were really good first person shooters. I don't know why Sony hasn't brought those back via Steam or via, you know, Microsoft's new yeah online, you know, service. I mean, those those deserve to be preserved. But um but anyway, ah sometimes you get so involved and you become such an expert because you were hired to do these books that
00:44:39
Speaker
amazing things happen. I wound up co-writing a game for Sony as based on the, you know, a resistance game. That's awesome. Just because I'd written these books and I knew it so well. And I was always correcting people on the team.
00:44:52
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And I know it's better than you at that point. Exactly. But that isn't where I was going. Where I was going to go was I remember that team, you know, I, I went to meet with them off the top when I was first hired and you walk into the room.
00:45:10
Speaker
And at that time, I think I was in my sixties and everybody goes, you just see all these faces that everybody in there is under 30 and they're all going, who brought grandpa to the party? and know What in the world is going on here? you know And so you have to, you have to, you have to do a good job to overcome yeah the built in,
00:45:35
Speaker
Well, what are you playing now? Right now I'm playing Far Cry 5. Oh, nice. That's Phil's favorite game.
00:45:46
Speaker
I, you know, I, for a long time, this is just, you know, it's so crazy for a long time. I love first person shooters. and For a long time, I'd be in the game store. I'd be online and I'd see like the cover art for Far Cry 2. And I thought,
00:46:03
Speaker
I look sucky. I mean, it just didn't look that to me. But finally, out of desperation, because there was only so many first-person shooters around, um you know, I gave it a try.
00:46:16
Speaker
And i fell in love with that game. You know, I mean, because it really allows you to use stealth, which can enjoy. I'm not a guy who loves to always just go in guns blazing. and Sure. I'm not, I don't try to get through games, the you know,
00:46:32
Speaker
in half an hour, play the whole game through an hour or an hour and set a record or something. I don't, I don't care about that. Uh, and so, um, so I, not only did I play it, I played it like three times and then I said, you need to stop this, yeah you know, and and move on. So I thought, well, I'll try another far, try, far cry game. And so I tried, um, I tried five and I'm enjoying it a lot. It's, uh,
00:47:02
Speaker
You know, the Far Cry games have a really, for me, I'm i'm not the brightest soul when it comes to the games. And they have a but a steep learning curve for me. You know, I mean, like sometimes I'm going, what?
00:47:16
Speaker
How do you do this? You know, what's the, you know, I don't understand this point system or this thing or that thing. But, but you know, eventually I figure it out about. Yeah.
00:47:27
Speaker
it's It's a learning curve, but they get you there eventually. if They get you there, and so I'm having a great time with it now. I got i got the learning curve behind me. so That's great. Yeah. yeah we ah That was actually one of, was that the third book we read? very read The third we covered was Far Cry Absolution. Oh, cool. Who wrote that?
00:47:46
Speaker
Urban Weight. Oh, okay. It was terrific. Very Cormac McCarthy. Really, really liked it. It's a prequel to Far Cry 5. Yeah. yeah i haven't I haven't played that game. What enabled me to play 5 was is that I got a new computer. you know My old computer didn't have anything past 2.
00:48:05
Speaker
Just didn't have enough processing power, enough speed, memory and all that. so Beyond gaming influences, that sort of thing, who who are your authors? Who are your guys who you ah who influenced you the most?
00:48:18
Speaker
Well, you know, I'd break them into two sets. You know, I was a huge Heinlein fan as a kid, you know, and Asimov and, you know, and just, you know, all the all the greats, you know, Dick, you know, on and on.
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I would say since I'm a military science fiction writer, um i was a huge and am a huge Dave Drake fan. And Dave and I actually, i got invited at one point to co-write a book with Dave, which was a big thrill.
00:48:51
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yeah. He was just such a generous man. And um I was in the service during Vietnam, but I didn't go. he was in the service Vietnam and he went.
00:49:03
Speaker
He was a tanker. Yeah. And, you know, if you know anything about the war in Vietnam, you guys are too young, but they had this highway 101 or whatever it was that ran through the middle of, you know, Vietnam.
00:49:15
Speaker
And the tanks couldn't really go anywhere except up and down this highway. And, you know, so that's where they spent a huge amount. That's where Dave spent a huge amount of his time and so on. It's going up and down that highway, I believe.
00:49:29
Speaker
But um so, um so I like that kind of, I like that kind of book. I like Campbell. I like, you know, a lot of the people who work for Bain because they're all military science fiction.
00:49:43
Speaker
And I should be able to think of more names right now, but you Yeah, well, it's, yeah. like It's a good lineup. It's a very good lineup. Yeah. Are you ah you working on anything right now? Anything in particular? know Yeah. um I'm writing a series. I'm on book seven of a series called Winds of War.
00:50:07
Speaker
And, you know, it's really interesting these days the way the business breaks down into these very specialized subcategories. So this is called Amazon came up with this. This is called near near future alternate near future alternative fiction. So, you know, and they also put it up on the science fiction thing where it doesn't do that well.
00:50:31
Speaker
But in the alternative. fiction category, it's these books are are doing very well. And what makes them a little bit different is they're about a fictional, thank God, fictional World War III.
00:50:49
Speaker
But instead of the usual thing of following some individual hero or heroine, you know, who goes Tom Clancy style.
Balancing Writing with Life and Ongoing Projects
00:50:58
Speaker
Remember how you know his hero was just a CIA guy and then he got promoted and then he winds up as president. You're going, what?
00:51:08
Speaker
It's a jump. What the hell happened there? you know i could never get over that. you know was a kind boggled my mind well they took that they took that idea for a tv show later with uh what was it the keifer sutherland there's a show called 24 yeah designated survivor with keifer sutherland used the same idea as as that tom clancy novel where uh what's his face harrison ford's character jack ryan becomes president
00:51:40
Speaker
Well, so so I didn't want to do that, but I wanted to write in the very near future, but just a little bit over the hill, so to speak, just a little bit over the horizon.
00:51:53
Speaker
And so each book is about somebody different and each book is set in a different place. And often I change between all the different military um groups. You know, one will be about the Navy, one will be about the Air Force, one will be about, you know, the Army and so on with different characters.
00:52:10
Speaker
And people seem, lot of people seem to like that. It's doing pretty well. With a series that big, youre yeah I mean, you're on the seventh book now. How much pre-planning do you do before you even get started?
00:52:26
Speaker
Well, you know, as you guys know, having, you know, writing, being, having, you know, gone to graduate school and also I can tell, you know, you do your own writing and stuff.
00:52:38
Speaker
There's really two kinds of writers, those who write outlines and those who don't, you know, and
00:52:46
Speaker
you're an organic writers. Who are they? I don't know anything about them. So you're an organic writer, right, Phil? I mean, that's that's your deal. Absolutely. And I get that and it works for some people, but I'm so insecure. You know I don't want to just dive in there, not not being able to know where I'm going or, you know,
00:53:06
Speaker
or whatever, if the muse doesn't show up for work, what the hell do i do? you know so So I write an outline, but now I'm gonna cop out a bit. you know I write the outline, but it's it's fairly high level.
00:53:20
Speaker
So that means that day to day, I'm often writing in an organic fashion. um And, you know, i and I'll come back to the outline maybe every five or six days, look at it, see if I'm on track, also look ahead and see what I'm doing.
00:53:39
Speaker
But it gives me that sense of I can get this done. You know, I can get there because I know what the big stepping stones towards yeah the end of the book are. It's it's just guideposts. It's got guardrails for you to follow, basically.
00:53:54
Speaker
But, you know, as I think Phil would probably testify, you know, the thing about the organic writing is is that that's when the magic can happen. You know, you haven't planned it. It's just, you know, something really good happens and you go with it and you feel it.
00:54:10
Speaker
And it comes from wherever it comes from. I don't feel it comes from me. That's why I talk about a muse. I feel like comes somewhere. It's definitely the most feast and famine style of writing. You are either like on this roll where you're like, oh, I'm a genius. This is the greatest thing I've ever written. Or you're just sitting there staring at a blinking cursor going, oh, I'm terrible. This is the worst. So, yeah, I do think about that. I want to be an outline writer. I really do. i think that would be so much easier if I was like, OK, here's A and B and my job is to get from there to there.
00:54:49
Speaker
That's so much easier. And I just never bring myself to do it. I just can't do it. It's just jumbled notes hidden in various corners of a notebook like that's just. It's in in madness. Only real men can be organic writers. I mean, you know, are kind of just wussies who go, no, I need railings. I need rails and crutches.
00:55:11
Speaker
ah like I appreciate it. Phil, do you think Bukowski had an outline? No. He had a whiskey bottle. i think I think he had a lot less than that. Yeah.
00:55:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, it is a pleasure. I feel, i just can't tell you how much I enjoy writing. I still pop out of bed in the morning and ready to go. And I love doing it. And, uh, that's fantastic privilege. And I mean, and that's, that's, that's been your life for the past, what, 35 years, something like that. Yeah. Well, starting for I had a real job, um, you know, being a manager for a big corporation and everything. And I, and I,
00:55:54
Speaker
put in my 20 years to get a defined pension. And then i became a full-time writer. So I've only been a full-time writer for about 20 years. Before that, I wrote a book a year um while having a full-time job and being a dad and all of that. And it can be done. I've written articles about how to do it. That's smart way to do it.
00:56:16
Speaker
One page a day, Phil. One page a day. One page a day. 365 days and you have a book. That is true. That is a true book right there. yeah That's all you have to do. I might have to, I might actually have to take that challenge. Do it that way. Do it, do it one page a day. I believe in you, Phil. Yeah. I mean, and you can do it, you know, I, you know, if you've got a day job, you can do it at the boring staff meeting.
00:56:44
Speaker
right You can do it on the train. You can do it, you know, whatever. Now that we're working remotely ah for for work, I mean, that makes it a lot easier. harder Yeah, because you can carve out some time to do that. So no excuses, guys.
00:57:03
Speaker
There really is none. And yet. And yet swear This is where you could throw it back at me and say, but what were you doing up till age 39, Bill? And I would have to say writing television news, writing corporate stuff, but not writing fiction. and yeah writing Writing other people's stuff. Writing other people's stuff, yeah.
00:57:28
Speaker
You have had a very a varied background ah based on what I've seen. I mean, that's got to play into your abilities as as a writer, yeah? There's so many things to draw from. it yeah It certainly helps. I remember when I went to grad school, which I didn't finish, but i I got halfway through before my wife and I ran off to Africa.
00:57:48
Speaker
But, you know, halfway through is really all you need. Halfway through is good enough. yes me But I remember this guy that I always sat next to, um you know, he was kind of a young, studly kind of guy. And we would talk and and he, you know, he told me and I would say, so what are you going to do after you finish your your master's?
00:58:08
Speaker
And he said, well, I'm going to become a tuna fisherman. And I said, what? Why? He says, because it'll look good when I write a book. It'll look good on my, on the blurb.
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah. People love that sexy background. yeah and so Tuna fisherman turned novelist. He was just going to do it for that reason. That just kind of. ah ah You know, like, but anyway. i can't I can't argue with too much of that motivation. I get it. No, not at all. absolutely get it.
00:58:42
Speaker
Let me see. Kevin, you got anything? You guys are podcasters now, and that's very, you know, very happening. Yeah. so yeah That goes right on the book cover, so. True. True. Yeah. There is this is not ah a topic that is heavily covered either. So we're. but But that's the thing, though. yeah You know, and that is, I mean, we live in a time of mass customization. We live in a time making this up where there's a magazine for left handed bike riders, you know. Right. And, you know, it's those micro, micro audiences. And basically.
00:59:21
Speaker
but Since I started self-publishing on Amazon, that's what I'm finding really works well. Yeah. it's You know, you're not getting the ah the mass market, but you're getting a large mini market.
00:59:34
Speaker
Yeah. People who really like that particular type of thing and like what you're doing. and are willing to you know keep paying for it. so it's what ah I remember ah my producing professor, I believe it was ah believe it was Professor Meyer, once saying in a class, you need about 10,000 dedicated fans and you can you have a career.
01:00:01
Speaker
the man The man had it right. you know Yeah, I could tell that some of your professors were better than mine. We had we had a very ah unique grad school ah career. it was yeah It was a good time. yeah It was a good time. What I remember of it was pretty good. I went to a communication school where very few of my professors had ever done any communicating.
Closing Thoughts
01:00:26
Speaker
You know, they'd never worked in radio or television or anything. They'd you know, they were all theory oriented and that's, uh, that wasn't what I was looking for the time. of our, all of our professors were, were literal Hollywood burnouts as if. Yeah.
01:00:42
Speaker
It had, it had serious, like, yeah, they were, they were ex pros, uh, that just couldn't, they just didn't want to do it. it They were just so tired. They were so tired. You'd get some really practical advice, but maybe sometimes the teaching abilities weren't quite as simple. right, right, yeah. I know what you mean there. When you're 25 years old and you come in and realize the professor is every bit as hungover as you are, you're like, okay, this is grad school.
01:01:11
Speaker
All right. At the time when I was going to grad school, I was also working full time as a TV director at a local television station directing two evening news shows a day.
01:01:22
Speaker
And so when when I you know became a teaching assistant and they hired me to teach television production, My class could actually go to the studios, crowd into the booth and watch me get through a live show.
01:01:36
Speaker
Now that's when you actually, you know, can lay claim to having taught something. Yeah, no, I totally agree. that's It's right there. You're doing it right. now That's as practical as it gets. Oh, what now you did mention, ah to be fair, that resistance was kind of your your your baby and this is like like a franchise you really enjoyed. Were there any ah any others that you've worked on that if they called you up tomorrow to work on something for them, you'd say yes without any hesitation?
01:02:09
Speaker
Well, of course, this boat has sailed, but I still love Star Wars. You know, I'm a big Star Wars fan, so i would certainly have to, you know, listen to their story and and so on. But that's not going to happen.
01:02:22
Speaker
ah Sadly, you know, the number of tie in books has dwindled a great deal. I mean, there was work there for quite a few people. And now it seems like just, you know, it just has kind of vanished for whatever reason.
01:02:36
Speaker
Sure. um But that's certainly one i i might, you know, entertain hit man if that if that came up, that was kind of fun to write. It was so different. um Different team was a European team.
01:02:51
Speaker
and And it just had it that caused things to be different in the way that what they would accept and what they wouldn't. I'll give you an example. So I give the the hit man, that's you know, a Beamer to drive, you know, and it's a real fancy Beamer and everything. And I thought, you know, this is cool. I mean, it's the kind of thing a guy like him would drive, right? I mean, you know, and nope.
01:03:20
Speaker
I get this you know email coming back, you know, bag the Beamer. It's a Volvo. Oh. Because these guys are over there in Volvo land, you know. Yeah. So I just it up. I had to school myself on Volvos and find out, you know, if there was a sexy one.
01:03:40
Speaker
Thanks, Bill. Thank you very much, Bill. It was terrific meeting you. It's pleasure meeting you, too. Maybe we'll bump into each other down the line sometime. i hope I'd like that. All right. Take care.
01:03:51
Speaker
Once again, we want to thank Bill for coming on the show. If you want more information about his work, please check out his website, WilliamCDietz.com or his Twitter at WCDietz. Links to those will be in the description below.
01:04:04
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Pixel It. Good night, everyone.