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Let's Discuss the Year of Shadow the Hedgehog Ft. SuperShadow271
113 Plays8 months ago
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by friend of the show SuperShadow271 to discuss the spontaneous "Year of the Shadow" in 2024 for the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise. From the new game Sonic x Shadow Generations to the third live action Sonic the Hedgehog film, we discuss all things Shadow the Hedgehog and his role in 2024.
Sonic fans, what project are you most excited for this year? Let us know below!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Appearance
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Chatsunami and joining me today very much like my own shadow is none other than the one and only Super Shadow 271. Hello again. Shadow, welcome back. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. I'm very happy to be back and I know we have already done an episode but it's cool
New Sonic Game Announcement: Year of Shadow
00:00:40
Speaker
to be back.
00:00:40
Speaker
because, yeah, last time we talked about your love of game collecting and I thought, you know what? That's two diverse subjects. Let's bring you back for some Sonic content here. Yes. I mean, I'm always down for more Sonic content. Of course, today we are indeed taking it back to, well, I was about to say Green Hill Zone, but quite frankly, it might be more with Stopolis. For all the non-Sonic fans, they will be so confused by that statement. So for any
00:01:07
Speaker
Anyone who doesn't know, or anyone who's been keeping their ear to the ground in relation to gaming news recently, it was announced that Sonic was getting a new game this year, or rather more of a redux as it were. And this time they were indeed focusing on none other than the one and only... Oh, how do I put this in the friendliest way possible?
00:01:30
Speaker
I suppose AGS characters, the way people make them out to be, but we will have words on that later on, but it's of course the rival to Sonic the Hedgehog, that of course being Shadow the Hedgehog. And quite frankly, I am really surprised that this year is supposedly going to be the year of Shadow, because I did not have that in my bingo card, because the year of Luigi was built up, this just came out of nowhere.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's strange to see how much shadow
Marketing Strategy Speculations
00:01:58
Speaker
content we're getting. Slight spoil is here for the second Sonic movie, so cover your ears for the next five minutes. But at the end of the live-action Sonic the Hedgehog 2 movie, we had the reveal that, oh, Shadow the Hedgehog's gonna come back and he's gonna be in the third one, which as of recording this episode, isn't out until December 2024. So while Sonic fans are waiting for that reveal about who's gonna
00:02:22
Speaker
play on and everything. I think it's meant to be Haden Christensen. We'll see. We'll definitely see soon enough. But we both thought that given the announcement of Sonic, and I have to be very, very careful, please do not search up this name without typing the full thing. Sonic X Shadow Generations. Is he just saying that first part? It gave me a bit of flashbacks. What I will say is the name of that's stupid. I'm going to be honest.
00:02:49
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't really roll off the tongue. They should have just called it Shadow Generations, but Sonic X Shadow, all the memes are coming out saying, look it up on Google. Oh, you've been disappointed. You know, it's like, no little Sonic fan, no God.
00:03:03
Speaker
You know what's funny though, I did see some people saying that maybe this is Sega's attempt to clean off the Google search results like they did with Sonic Dream Team where it pushed away the search results for Sonic Dream Collection and now they're trying to like push down all the Sonic X Shadow search results with generations. That actually reminds me of when I popped into one of your streams and you talked about Sonic Dreams and I was like
00:03:29
Speaker
Oh yeah, Sony Dream, you know the game that they brought out for the iOS. You're like, no, no, no, the fan game. I was like, what do you mean fan game? And then all of a sudden, just that image, I got it in like stereo and everything. I was like, oh my god, yes, I remember. And you know what? At least last I checked, it's actually working. If you search Sonic X Shadow, you will get a lot of just generations. For legal reasons and the Red Panda's waving me.
00:03:56
Speaker
the corner. I'm advocating not to look it up. Yeah, look it up at your own risk. Yeah, look up at your own risk. Chats and Hammy will not take any liability for any weird, deviant-R-esque abomination should come out of it. So, I'm cleaning my hands
Comparing Thematic Announcements
00:04:12
Speaker
for you.
00:04:13
Speaker
So, as we said before, this year, of course, 2024, not in the bingo cards, but it is going to be the Year of Shadow, which again, it doesn't really roll off the tongue, you know, Year of the Red Panda, Year of the Dragon. What is that? Now, we're going to have the Year of A, A, G, H, O with the gun and everything.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, we haven't seen a
Shadow's Evolution in the Sonic Universe
00:04:36
Speaker
gun yet, but it's coming I'm sure. Oh, yeah, there'll be a pepper up. I mean shadow for fortnight when oh my god Oh, oh no. Have I just manifested that? Oh, no shadow gonna be in fortnight with a glock. Oh my god if he is For one thing I'll be blaming you. Yeah, you heard it here first folks and I hope to god to that this episode comes out before but
00:05:00
Speaker
It's gonna be like next week. Oh yeah, Shadow's in Fortnite. Yeah, there has to be, or there'll be a skin or something for them. But anyway, moving back onto Shadow himself, because I don't want to manifest anything so tedious. Yeah, today we are indeed gonna be talking about this character, our hopes for the direction they're taking them in 2024, as it were, because it's safe to say that after his introduction in, I wanna say 2001,
00:05:28
Speaker
for Sonic Adventure 2, he was Sonic's literal opposite. He was his shadow. Answer, funny memes here. Answer out your favourite minion meme here of Sonic. Oh god, speaking of that, before we actually dive into this, I saw one of the scariest tweets, even more scarier than Shadow and Fortnite, but I saw someone post a picture of, you know, the very iconic
00:05:56
Speaker
like Sonic and Shadow kind of facing off and they've got the Chows at the bottom trying to find one another. Oh yes, yeah. And somebody said, what are the chances that for the live action film they're going to turn the Chow into the new Minions? Oh, I think I saw that. I hate it.
00:06:14
Speaker
that is terrifying to me yeah yeah you know what and they're probably not wrong either no they probably aren't but saying that horrifying note um now that everybody's wide awake can't get to sleep after that because of some image as of here while we dive into talking about shadow the hedgehog yeah i guess so and as always we will be right back after these damn messages
00:06:49
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:07:00
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:07:23
Speaker
Hi, I'm SuperShadow271. You can find me over on Twitch, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, and even Discord. I play and talk about a huge variety of games, so there's bound to be something you're interested in, especially if you're a Sonic fan. My content tries to be chill with some insightful commentary on games, so if you're interested, please check me out. Thank you so much for listening, and let's get back to Chatsunami.
00:07:47
Speaker
So yeah, as I said before, Shadow was a character who was basically introduced in 2001. He was Sonic's rival in the video games. And then I feel as if he was meant to be in correct way from wrong Shadow, but was he not meant to be a one-off character? Yes, he was meant to be just an antihero of the week.
00:08:09
Speaker
And then, of course, they brought him back because of how popular he was in Sonic Heroes. And this is something I brought up in our video game collection episode where I was saying that the reason I found out he was still alive was, I think, partly because he was in the back of the cover. And it was like the eyes shadowed in the back of the cover. And then I read the instruction manual and I went, oh, why did he shadow alive? And, you know, they just kind of shrug it off of, oh, he fell to Earth and then he got rescued by Dr. Eggman.
00:08:37
Speaker
I was gonna say. He was actually intercepted before he hit Earth. Eggman, I guess, just sent like a flying robot to intercept him. Can you imagine the world peace Eggman would be able to achieve with all of that instead of catching the hedgehogs like alien invaders? Gerald could have done a
Reception of Shadow the Hedgehog Game
00:08:56
Speaker
lot great too if they didn't shoot his daughter. Oh god, don't get me started on Gerald Robotnik.
00:09:02
Speaker
was Adam. Praise be to Gerald Robotnik, who got completely retconned as a complete maniac who was going to destroy an entire planet to Savior of Humanity, which actually brings me on to my next point very well. So yeah, as we're saying, he got reintroduced in 2003 with Sonic Heroes and then he got his own game in 2005 and I've got to admit, I was
00:09:29
Speaker
actually really excited to see where they were going with it, despite the fact it was a hedgehog with a gun on the cover. I know, I know. I was wrong. I was silly. But I was really excited to see what they were going to do with it. And yeah, if you haven't guessed by now, it wasn't the best entry of the series. Not the worst, surprisingly, somehow. Well, so I replayed Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog recently. And I have to say, at least mechanically, I prefer Shadow. Yeah.
00:09:57
Speaker
It's kind of like saying I prefer being hit over the head once as opposed to twice but still. Well, true, true. The art direction in that game always annoyed me because it looked as if they were all rubbery and shiny and they slid all over the place.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And what annoyed me even more was the fact that people said, at least as far as I know anyway, I'm sure people had looked at the coding of these games and they were relatively similar to what they used in Sonic Adventure, but the only difference was that they bumped up the, I don't want to say the sensitivity because that's not right, you know, the speed of the characters. Have you moved them? Yes. Why they did that? I don't know. Well, I know why, why, you know, to make a faster experience, but why?
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. I'd go highway. Why? I should be condemned. That's all I'm going to say. Yeah, yeah. You know, though, I also have to say I like at least the concept of Shadow the Hedgehog, where it's like you're exploring the story of a character and there are however many potential roots that he could realistically. You're exploring different aspects of his character before you get to the one actual canon storyline. So what you're saying is that Shadow the Hedgehog was the original mass effect? You know what?
00:11:14
Speaker
We are going to get so much hay bale for this one. I hate how right you are. I'm going to write you right now. But it's true though. And for anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, Mass Effect introduced in 2007, two years later, they introduced the whole Paragon versus Renegade feature.
00:11:34
Speaker
Obviously, they're not the first games to do that. Neither was Shadow the Hedgehog, but I do think it's quite funny that, you know, Bioware, two years later, somehow, Shadow the
Narrative Comparisons and Backstory
00:11:43
Speaker
Hedgehog has beaten you to the punch. I love the idea of people at Bioware being like, oh, that's good. We should take that. Write that down. Write that down.
00:11:54
Speaker
Okay, so if we replace Gerald Robotnik with a sexy alien lady, you know what I'm saying? Yes, yes. Let's do that instead and you're like, what happened by the way? Yeah. Now jokes aside, for legal reasons that's a joke. As a joke, please don't send any hate mail.
00:12:10
Speaker
But I actually love the reason that Shadow has a gun in that game, because I think it was the creator of Sonic, or it was somebody high up anyway that kept getting asked by kids, can Mr. Sonic have a gun? Why? I don't know. It's quite disturbing that he was in the vicinity of a lot of kids that were asking that question.
00:12:30
Speaker
Christian, to be honest. But then, of course, they said, well, no, Sonic can't have a gun, but what Shadow can have, because he's a side character, he can have a gun. And you're like, why? Why? If I remember, it was Yuji Naka that was the one who got all those requests.
00:12:49
Speaker
I think what's funny about it is, to my understanding, they were already planning a spin-off game. They just hadn't decided exactly what it would be yet. Because if I remember, they held a poll for what kind of spin-off people would want to see, and people voted for Shadow. So they were like, hey, we can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak, and we can give Shadow a gun and make a spin-off. There we go. Everyone's happy, supposedly.
00:13:13
Speaker
That fear and win will never get the 1-0-2 gamma spin-off where he shoots his gun. We'll never get that spin-off game. Oh man. I'm waiting for the Rouge of the Bat spin-off where you just fly around and then eventually run into a jewel. I'm getting Sonic 06 for our spot team.
00:13:32
Speaker
But I feel as if after, especially for Sonic Adventure 2, and don't get me wrong, we could do a whole episode of why we think that Sonic Adventure 2 is absolutely fantastic. His character was a lot more, and bear with me here because I know there's a lot of raised eyebrows, I can hear them from here, but there was a lot of nuance to his character.
00:13:53
Speaker
You know, he was a character that was isolated from society. He was used to his best. Friend was murdered in front of him and everything. Very dark stuff for a Sonic the Hedgehog game of all things, but because of the way they framed it, you know, wasn't like, oh, it's aliens killing the president. Independence day style, you know. Again, why?
00:14:14
Speaker
But, you know, there was a lot of really clever writing in that regard. But then after that, I feel as if once he had his hero arc as it were, they didn't really know what to do with him. Especially, I think that's what solidified in 2005 from being the rival to Sonic, then the heroes, he's the anti-hero. And then in 2005, he is, yeah, the edgy one with a gun.
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah. I have to agree with you, I think his character was nuanced, so to speak, in Sonic Adventure 2, but I would argue that he was edgy, but there was justification for it, right? It was a character who knew very few people in life, but had his life
00:14:56
Speaker
suddenly ruined and was kind of out for revenge before realizing that that's not what his essentially mother would have wanted. It's a justifiable story like it's an understandable thing and I think he is edgy and broody but there's like a point to it and I think Sega didn't quite understand that so when they were like oh edgy and broody well let's just focus on that and he ended up removing that part that made it understandable
00:15:22
Speaker
In Shadow the Hedgehog, half of the story is him being like, who am I? Why am I here? And it's like, we've already been through this. Clearly we kind of already know. So his brooding about it feels unjustified. You're completely right in that, to be honest. You've got him at the beginning going, oh, I don't have time for these humans. And you're like, oh, Shadow. Oh, praise so much. You bumped your head on the way back. That's why.
00:15:48
Speaker
You know that old copy past the meme where it's like, oh, you've been in a coma for years? I think that's what people were hoping at the end of Shadow the Hedgehog who just woke up in the hospital bed or something that's like, dap, it was all a dream. You're like, please, please tell me. But no, no, sadly not. And then, of course, going forward, to be honest, I feel as if there wasn't much
00:16:13
Speaker
development. I feel as if he was a lot more subtle in Sonic 06, which I have to say of all the things to praise the game for characterisation again was not in the bingo card but it's quite surprising they kind of toned him down. And then after that, as far as I remember other than side appearances like in Sonic and the Black Knight and things like that, they never really brought him to the forefront
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, I always talk that up to the negative reception to shadow the hedgehog the game. I mean, yeah, I guess 06 was kind of his most prominent role since well, actually, I mean, after 06, I'm pretty sure he just kind of dropped off the face of the earth in terms of being a prominent character. Yeah.
00:16:54
Speaker
I think you're right, because I'm trying to remember. I know, again, he was a boss in Sonic and the Black Knight, as I said, and I can't remember if he was in Secret Rings. Maybe. I don't think he was. I don't remember. If we're talking spin-off games, yeah, he was in Sonic Riders and things like that. Yeah. I mean, he was in the games. He was in Generations, technically. Yeah, and the side eyes going, you got this, Sonic, and you're like, what has happened to your voice, sir?
00:17:21
Speaker
I know, right? I mean, don't get me wrong, I can do better as a voice actor, but yeah, that was a little bit jarring. When you heard his new voice for the first time, you're like, oh, oh my. Well, the first and pretty much only time, you hear him in the boss fight with him and you hear him right at the end to just say, you've got this song and that's pretty much it.
00:17:39
Speaker
You're right, that's it. He kind of disappears again until...
Shadow's Presence Post-Sonic 06
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah, he's just there, you know. Of course, I'm trying to remember the next time you really see him. I think it could genuinely be Sonic Prime was when we actually got him come back. Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, I'm not wrong in thinking that.
00:17:55
Speaker
No, I think that's pretty much it. He wasn't a factor in Sonic Frontiers. He wasn't in Superstars. Wasn't in Lost World. Well, no, he was in Forces. Yeah, he had the DLC in Forces. Yeah, okay. I feel as if that's the only time he was technically prominent that even then, that's a stretch.
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah, like that DLC was like three missions. It's hardly a showcase. Well, then again, the whole game felt like three missions. Yeah, pretty much. Do you think it's a generational thing or it's like an all of its time thing? Because looking back at Sonic,
00:18:30
Speaker
The fact is that he was like a cool dude with the attitude. I can't believe I just said that. Of the 90s, that was the kind of things that were cool for kids. It was appealing. There wasn't old stuffy Mario. He was fast. He was blue. I don't know why being blue is a virtue, but unless you're a paragon.
00:18:49
Speaker
At the same time, yeah, he was of that time. But then as the 2000s kind of rolled in, they became a little more, I wouldn't say reserved, but confident and had a lot of comebacks and things like that. Shadow at the time, he was again, I think they were just on the cusp because it was like 2001 that the game came out.
00:19:10
Speaker
So there was still some more appetite for that type of character. But yeah, I feel as if he is literally, and this is sort of my joke to you before we came on there, but it's a bit like, you know, the Itchy and Scratchy and Poochy show where it's this new character that they've introduced and it's clearly not a character that fits with the world. And don't get me wrong, I do think Shadow does fit, but he fits space as time goes on.
00:19:37
Speaker
I get what you mean. I think Sonic has kind of always been of his time. You know, originally he was kind of, I don't want to say rude necessarily, but he was very brash. And then towards the kind of 2000s, he became more just, I don't want to say like a spectacle, but he was a big deal. Like he was still cool, but he wasn't necessarily cocky. And then what I've always said about Sega and Sonic and like their whole plan for Sonic is I think they listened to their fans a little bit too much when it comes to Sonic. Oh, a hundred percent.
00:20:06
Speaker
I can't tell you how many videos and comments and things I saw of people who were like, Sonic should be about Sonic, not about all his friends. And so the next few games would totally remove pretty much all of his friends, except for like, Tails. Not that they're not good, but it felt so empty, I guess, would be the word. Like, hollow.
00:20:24
Speaker
Right, because I do remember Sonic 4. I remember how bad that game was, and I know there's fans of it, and if you love it, all power to you, but it wasn't the strongest entry again. Yeah, right. Again, it feels like the anti-Nintendo, and I don't mean that as a compliment.
00:20:40
Speaker
because Pika were always trying to innovate in the way that they presented Sonic. They did different ideas and things, but it feels as if, for example, Mario, they were obviously at the forefront trying to make him fun at the same time, make it practical. And I'm going to be honest, I don't think in terms of Mario or Super Mario Wonder, I don't think anybody was clamoring for elephant Mario.
00:21:06
Speaker
as it were but they threw him in anyway and from what I've heard it's meant to be a fun game so you know absolutely great but you're completely right with the Sonic fandom and again I've done an episode on this as well with the fantastic Wisteria Moth where we were talking about Sonic fandom growing up and things and
00:21:24
Speaker
it does feel as if there's a lot of people who are very very passionate about this franchise and don't get me wrong passion is a wonderful thing if you love the series, if you love the characters that is good but just because you like a particular part of the character you can't expect it to
00:21:45
Speaker
constantly roll over and be the same for years to come. Would you say that Shadow had a somewhat problem, at least in terms of reputation, he had a problem of stagnation in regards to his character development? Yeah, I would agree with that. I think because he was planned to be a one-off, his initial appearance was great, but then since they really didn't plan for him to come back,
00:22:08
Speaker
They kind of didn't know what to do and whatever feedback they got I'm sure was not helpful. Because Shadow's a difficult character to pull off kind of in general. People probably initially were negative on him because they didn't know what to do and were like trying to bring him back but didn't know how. It's a tough one because even in the comics
00:22:27
Speaker
I'm not au fait in terms of the archery comics. I know a lot of weird and again this is something we've talked about in the past but the archery comics definitely went places especially with you know trying to introduce silver and shadow and everyone but in terms of the new comics something that was quite interesting was how I think
00:22:48
Speaker
it was Ian Flynn who was talking about this like the head writer when he was doing the metal virus saga and I could be wrong, it could have been these podcasts Bumblecast but I'm sure it was him that said there was something to do with the way that he was allowed to write Shadow the Hedgehog as a character and those particular stories especially with the metal virus which again we have a chance to short episode on that wink wink but
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah, because of that and I think that partly relates to another writer's interference and they have so many strict mandates. Rhymes with pen shmitters. Yeah, with pen benders. Yeah, because of that there's been a lot of very strict things like Sonic isn't allowed to cry or
Sega's Hesitation with Shadow
00:23:37
Speaker
show too much emotion
00:23:39
Speaker
You know, I think there's another thing like going with Sonic can go super or, you know, these hedgehogs. I think like, you know, him, Shadow and Silver can go super, but I don't know if the same is extended to Amy or anyone, which kind of sucks. But yeah, there's a lot of restrictions in that regard. But do you think Sega have been quite careful after Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic go six? Do you think they are very careful about how they represent the character going forward?
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if necessarily careful is the word. I think hesitant would probably be more accurate because I think a lot of the media since then that even includes Shadow is him being like a very, very minor appearance or like not there at all. So I think only now have they realized the potential that he has. And so like the trailer for Sonic X Shadow Generations, I think they've embraced it in a way that I'm hoping, you know, will actually come together.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, because it's going to be interesting to see how they actually personify them on the new generations game. Yeah. And whether or not it is going to be 100% shadow or it's going to act more like a DLC.
00:24:52
Speaker
Yeah, at the time of recording, they really haven't given much detail, but somebody did note that in the press release for Sonic X Shadow Generations, they referred to it as a collection, kind of implying that it's a game in itself. So I'm hopeful that it's pretty significant. That is interesting, an interesting choice of words there. Yeah. Are we looking at a battle pass, is what I'm asking.
00:25:14
Speaker
Oh god, I would be very sad. Again, I don't want to manifest that. Yeah, please don't. Oh god, can you imagine, sonic camel or something? I would be very distraught.
00:25:29
Speaker
Fine in the dark room. Shadow, it's time for your stream. Go away. No, I have to grind the battle paths. The stupid battle paths. Well, The Fall Guys has a battle pass, which is something I never thought I'd be seeing in 2024. Oh yeah, true. I don't think they would, but then I've just realised that Silent Hill also has a battle pass in one of their games. Are you serious?
00:25:51
Speaker
I can't remember what game it is. Technically, it's not a Battle Pass. Well, it is a Battle Pass, but I don't know what you would call a Silent Hill Pass. It's one of the new games. Really? I had not heard this. So yeah, it's the new Silent Hill Ascension game. Oh, it's that. Oh, OK. You know, I think I did kind of hear about this. Yeah, I remember hearing about that. And I think the thing that caught my eye was a lot of people were really confused because they had like you can unlock a sticker that just says trauma.
00:26:20
Speaker
Oh, that one they do is for the Silent Hill game. Have you seen Ascension was just like an animated series and people swore it was written by AI and I'm inclined to think that too. But for Silent Hill. Yeah. Yeah. So for Ascension, there is a scene where there are two characters just wandering around in the woods.
00:26:39
Speaker
and they get approached by this just random man and he's like, oh, I'm just picking berries and you know, I'd make jams. And he adds nothing to the story. And there's this whole scene and it's like so totally just bizarre. It feels so written by an AI. I'll have to send it to you. I'm just wondering, can you imagine like a Sonic game? No, no, no, we're not even going to go there. Because Sonic or sex, before they take all that, well, it's not
00:27:04
Speaker
I should not go back. We're not going back to Sonic Venice. We're not going back. Yeah. But yeah, going back onto Shadow for a second. It is interesting how that despite the negative attention, because this is something that again, I think Moth and I talked about in our Being a Sonic Fan episode where we talked about, you know, the stigma that comes with being a Sonic fan. And you know, when people think of Sonic, usually one of the things up there other than Sonic 06, of course, and glitches and
00:27:33
Speaker
and so forth. One of the major things is Shadow the Hedgehog. You know, they think of the hedgehog with a gun, and they think of the cover art where it's an explosion, and you know, that one scene where he decides to cock a assault rifle? Which, I mean, I don't know a lot about guns, but I don't think that's how guns work. Yeah, I don't know a lot about guns, but I think you're right. If you're honest with me, they just did it for a joke, and they left it in, and you're like, well done.
00:28:02
Speaker
But it is crazy to think that, and again I know why they're doing this, they're clearly doing it because the Sonic the Hedgehog 3 movies coming out in December, that's going to be a big payoff to all of this. But it is crazy to think that even though Shadow has been through all this, by all of this I don't mean through the arc and things,
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Hey Maria, get shot. Yeah, not literally. Praise be to Gerald Robotnik, hashtag. But more so for the fact that people still regard them as a very prominent character, you know, and someone who is worth talking about. Yeah.
00:28:38
Speaker
It's funny how despite how little he's actually shown up in the games, how big of a presence he still has in the brand as a whole. Because I mean even as I said before with the IDW comics, he does reappear again and people had issue with the way he was characterized because you know there's a particularly infamous scene in the metal virus saga where he decides to punch very infectious zombies and his words, I kid you not, these words to that are something
00:29:08
Speaker
like Coward Run, I win or something like that, or I fight, you know, something so over the top and stupid and you're like, yeah, that's either an executive decision to make them like that or there's something wrong there. But even with that, it's interesting to see that the fanbase is still vocal, you know, because let's face it, if the fanbase was apathetic about Shadow, then we wouldn't
00:29:33
Speaker
really have him coming back for the sequels, the albums, we wouldn't have him featuring in his own game again after. Oh my god, that's gonna be nearly 10 years since Shadow of the Hedgehog came out, so 9 years. That's crazy. Isn't it? Oh sorry, 19 years? Jesus Christ. Oh, oh god. Oh my god, no.
00:29:55
Speaker
I was like, yeah, 2005 was nine years ago. Yeah, it's only 2015. Nearly 20 years ago, since Shadow the Hedgehog came out. Yeah. Why didn't they save it for the year after? In fact, no, I know why, because it wasn't. I mean, they kind of lodged it back to January. Just put more
00:30:10
Speaker
Frontiers content now, I'm actually surprised that they never really had Shadow in Frontiers. Yeah, it surprised me too, considering they were willing to put in a lot of other references to even, you know, stuff I would have been okay if they didn't reference. He's such an anomaly when it comes to characters that people love because he's really not that big in the grand scheme of the franchise, but he's big when it comes to people's perception of it, you know?
Enduring Popularity of Shadow
00:30:38
Speaker
And this is a genuine question here, do you think that is genuinely because of the impact they had on Sonic Adventure 2? I do think so. I've actually met a lot of people who are like, I haven't played a Sonic game since the one that was on the GameCube and it's like, oh, Adventure 2. Yeah, I think Adventure itself left a pretty huge impact.
00:30:55
Speaker
and Shadow being the focal point of Adventure 2 for so many people really just cemented his existence. I mean, that is quite funny when you were saying how people haven't played since Adventure 2 and they're like, oh, what's Shadow up to now? For them, it's just them blinking and going, oh, Shadow's back, okay. It's been years of, I don't want to say torture, because there's been good and bad games
00:31:17
Speaker
in between. But yeah, you wouldn't really want to see many other characters come to the forefront in their own games, but it is quite surprising and I do find this quite interesting. The fact that, although maybe then again you had frontiers coming out at the same time, but it is quite interesting how in the Second Sonic the Hedgehog problem they made a massive thing about bringing in Knuckles.
00:31:41
Speaker
as the antagonist. And I mean, he's a popular character within the fanbase. My co-host Adam, he absolutely loves Knuckles as a character. He really had a lot of fun playing as him in Adventure 1 and 2. He wouldn't be popular enough to carry his own game, and I know technically he did have his own game, but
00:32:02
Speaker
talk about Knuckles' Chaotix, but you know, isn't it quite funny though that there's not really another character that could pull off their own game or rather have the entire focus on them except for Big the Cat, but that's another story. Yeah, I'm not qualified to really talk on the movies that much because I don't see what others see in them, put it diplomatically.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sorry. This might legitimately turn off a lot of people, but I really detest the movies. And at least Knuckles' introduction kind of made sense because they were doing the Sonic thing where it's like, oh, you know, Knuckles gets tricked by Eggman and, you know, and then they make up in the end. So, like, I understood it from that point of view.
00:32:44
Speaker
I don't know where they're going for Sonic 3 when it comes to Shadow. There's so much that I would need to know. I don't know. It's hard for me to really say for sure. It's something I have to admit that I'm extremely curious about, because I have to say I wasn't really expecting the reveal at the end of the second film when they did it, because my friend Adam said to me, oh, you're gonna love the ending of this film, you're gonna fanboy out.
00:33:09
Speaker
you know of course when supersonic and god this is going to be a big spoiler of an episode but yeah when supersonic appears you know it's like oh this is amazing they do the reference to sonico 6 and everything they had their child and they were squealing this is very fun then they brought up shadow and after that i was laughing when it was coming out the cinema because there was this wee boy standing in front of me with his mother and the mom was saying oh shadow is he a nuke?
00:33:35
Speaker
And that boy was just spouting out exposition, jargon. And honestly, I wanted to be like, you know, the beginning of Schrodig Adventure where Eggman's standing at the top of the Station Square Building and he goes, you know nothing, fool! And she goes, the ultimate life fool!
00:33:54
Speaker
Oh my God. I wanted to, but I didn't want to get arrested, so I decided to... Yeah. Yeah, local news. Local Red Panda gets arrested spouting out the glory of Gerald Robotnik. But anyway, hashtag Gerald Robotnik. There's nothing wrong. And for legal reasons, that is definitely a joke. But yeah, I'm curious to see where they go, because as I said before, shadow started off as quite a nuance.
00:34:18
Speaker
character, and obviously we're not talking about Citizen Kane level of writing, or you know, we're not saying this is the next insert. Any Oscar were they found Casablanca or God of the Wind or something like that. It is not that kind of level we're talking about here, but in terms of the grander scheme of things, in terms of the video games, it's a whole heap
00:34:40
Speaker
He was a tragic anti-hero. Despite that, he was leading Eggman into the space colony arc. He wanted him to basically destroy the world. He was helping him achieve this goal. And it's really good stuff. And especially when you see the conflict with him when he sees Maria get shot. And as I said before, this was before Sonic was getting
00:35:02
Speaker
quote unquote edgy because even with sonic adventure despite the whole city being destroyed until saying all's well that ends well we'll never forget that but you know despite the fact that was destroyed sonic i don't think was ever considered edgy until 2000
00:35:19
Speaker
five when they brought the game out for Shadow the Hedgehog. But yeah, he was very subtly done and the fact that he witnessed his only friend get shot by the military, you know, that is a very dark implication. So to have Sonic being, oh look, I'm just a little shitter running around Green Hill to Jesus Christ, he's got a gun.
00:35:41
Speaker
It's a complete flip, but yeah, as I said, I wouldn't say that it necessarily earned a reputation of being edgy, so I'm wondering how the film itself is actually going to handle that because there's a fine, fine line. As I said, I don't think
00:35:58
Speaker
Sonic Adventure 2 always handled things good or as good as it could have but at the end of the day they handled it just enough for a compelling story and considering that the movies up until now have been kind of goofy and you know not as dark
00:36:14
Speaker
as it were, because obviously they're not going to go for an R-rated Sonic. He's going to still be on the Happy Meal, but how dark are they going to go for here? Are they going to talk about Maria? Are they going to talk about Gerald Robotnik? Because I hear Jim Carrey's meant to be coming back, so there'll be the link there for the Space Colony arc and everything. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if the writing from 2001 is going to translate well to the current day.
00:36:38
Speaker
yeah it's hard to say because i feel like the movies have differentiated from the usual sonic style enough that i can't really imagine where they're gonna go with it yeah i'm hoping that they tone it down but have enough of an impact they did reveal several other people they cast and one of them very much looks like maria so i assume she's gonna be a plot point oh
00:37:00
Speaker
Oh my God, do you know what I just thought there? Do you think they're going to do the Christmas carol thing where they look at the camera at the end with like a Maria Robotnik who was not shot?
00:37:12
Speaker
Oh, isn't that swell? Again, I hope I'm not manifested. Oh, my God. See if they do that. I will genuinely be in his aesthetics in the cinema next to a bunch of children be like, Mommy, why is a 30 something year old man laughing at us? Don't look at him, dear. Don't look at him. Yeah, there was a headline I saw where it was like Sonic fans are incredibly excited to watch a child get shot in a way. Yeah.
00:37:41
Speaker
I was gonna say it's like a person with a female, but that's the best part.
00:37:46
Speaker
Out of context, out of context that sounds bad, in context that probably sounds even worse, even with context. As a kind of closing point though, I feel as if they are going to carry shadow over, because this is actually something we haven't touched on before we wrap up.
Shadow's Character in Sonic Prime
00:38:08
Speaker
This is something that you'd actually said was done really well, and that of course is the Sonic
00:38:14
Speaker
prime show? Yes, I was actually hoping to bring it up at some point. Because it was something that I had in the back of my head, I thought, oh bring it up, let's open it up. Because for other adaptations like Sonic X, for example, Shadow was relatively just the same. He didn't have a gun, but he was relatively just
00:38:30
Speaker
Oh, I'm the mysterious brooding badass, but since you're more of an authority on this subject, was his writing a lot better? I think so. I think his writing hit a good balance between him being edgy, but him being reasonable. The crux of Shadow's character is like, in that series, he used Chaos Control to avoid being split by the Shatter crystal.
00:38:54
Speaker
So like he's kind of just stuck in the chatter space and he has to help Sonic fix everything because he can't do it himself. So like he's got this kind of, I hate the fact that I have to work with you, but I have to work with you thing going on. It's all really compelling to me, at least until the third season when he kind of just stopped being an interesting character. Yeah, he's just kind of there.
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, maybe I need to rewatch season three, but his whole subplot kind of doesn't really pay off. It's just like he's helping Sonic and then he warns Sonic that nine is going to betray and he does. And then season three is essentially him being stuck in a pit for most of it. So it's just kind of doesn't go anywhere, you know, my one weakness.
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's so weird. I mean, granted, I think something happened to Sonic Prime because it felt very rushed. But, uh, there's a whole stretch. Sonic has to like leave and go get his friends to help fight the robots to get to nine. And Shadow's like, oh, I'll hold him off. And then he gets knocked down a pit. And then that's just kind of the last you hear of him until just randomly one episode, he comes out of the pit and helps speed up some more robots. And that's pretty much it.
00:40:01
Speaker
had you die. Nope. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much how it goes and it's just really weird because otherwise I liked his interaction with Sonic and his role in the story but it just didn't go anywhere. Yeah, it's kind of strange how they introduced him quite strong because I remember even looking at the discourse around the show that a lot of people seemed to like the way he was characterised in Sonic Prime. Yeah. But it is weird to think that he was characterised so well when then all of a sudden they're like
00:40:30
Speaker
Yeah and then suddenly somehow Shadow forgot about the big massive pit in front of him. Well I think it was like he was knocked into it but even still. Oh yeah. But I think what's frustrating for me is that Shadow he was set to be a really interesting character because they could have had it so that way oh you know maybe Shadow has his own motives or like maybe he's trying to do something counter to Sonic's interests
00:40:55
Speaker
They could have done so many things and he just doesn't really go anywhere. The final half of the season is basically one prolonged fight sequence. It's animated well. It's not like it's that awful, but it's just you're sitting there like this is a battlefield. OK, OK, I get it. Yeah, we're advancing. Oh, no, wait. Now we have to fall back. Now we advance again. Now we fall back. It's like, come on, just get to the point where something happens. So what you're saying is it's like an episode with the Dragon Ball Z. Kind of, yeah.
00:41:21
Speaker
this planet will blow up in five minutes yeah i do like the idea that sonic has to somehow convince nine to give up but really like most of those episodes were just fighting random robots and like there's a whole sequence where they're all scared from the big robot as in like big the cat robot is it big the cat robot yeah they make a big the cat robot you know what why are we here i'll be right back
00:41:47
Speaker
Excuse me. Well, it's funny because they make the big and he's like big and intimidating and he's going to destroy them all. And then they weaken nine's power to the point where they can kill the robot. And then there's a plot thing where like nine gets more power and he just revives the robot. And it's like, what was the point of that whole sequence if he's just getting back up again? So what you're saying that shadow should have brought his clock?
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah, you know, you had plenty of opportunity to just ice nine while you had the chance. Do you think of the pet? He's just setting up his sniper scope and then he's just like disappointed. Not today. Shadow. I like to imagine Shadow's in the pit with his sniper rifle. He's like aiming at nine and it's like, come on, come on. And then like a fight sequence breaks out and it's, ah, no, this is messing up my shot.
00:42:33
Speaker
I genuinely wonder though, in terms of Shadow in general, if they are going to keep to how they characterise them to begin with, or if they're going to try and evolve them as a character, because obviously he has, well, not with him, but the other characters have been through so much within the narrative of the games. They have gone through their trials, their tribulations, and for Shadow in particular, there's no easy way of breaking it to someone that your dad's an
Future Speculations for Shadow
00:43:03
Speaker
alien.
00:43:03
Speaker
Let's face it, not a great way to start the day. You start the day, you're standing, you're brooding, then all of a sudden a new way in Armada comes down, ruins your favourite Starbucks, you know. Not very productive, I will say, but I just wonder with Sonic 8 Shadow Generations, which is going to get old very fast.
00:43:24
Speaker
I just wonder how they're going to characterise them in the game because obviously with Sonic games nowadays the characterisation usually takes second place. I know recently with frontiers and things they've tried to make an effort and they did quite a good job there but that's really the only game in recent memory where I feel as if they made a conscious effort to try and emphasise the characteristics of them and
00:43:49
Speaker
I wonder if they're going to do the same thing there, because as much as I love Generations as a game, as a story, I don't like it at all. I'm going to be honest. I know why they did it that way, because it's more focused on the set pieces and the nostalgia, so I can give it a pass with that. But I wonder how much of that they're going to do for Shadow Generations. I'm going to call it Shadow Generations. But I wonder how much they're going to do it for that, because obviously you've got the fight with the bio wizard, you've got the fight with
00:44:19
Speaker
I did see a lot of people remarking about how weird it'll be to go from Sonic Generations's writing to whatever new writing they're going to do with, I believe Ian Flynn confirmed he's working on it. I thought it would be good. Yeah, so I'm excited for it, but it will be kind of jarring to go through the Sonic Generations thing and then be like, oh, actually, this shadow whole story just kind of... Shadow was back in time and has to ship media. Yeah.
00:44:45
Speaker
that's what a lot of people have been joking sonic and classic sonic or yeah let's go on an adventure look at all these fun little set pieces from our previous games woohoo and then shadow comes back like my best friend is dead tell me about the artificial chaos oh no yeah as i said i can't wait until he's unfortunate
00:45:06
Speaker
Oh no. I hope that's not the case, but I get the funny feeling there's going to be something. If it's not that, then it will be like a onesie or something. Yeah. Do you know what would be legitimate, would you? What would be cool in Fortnite? I don't even play Fortnite, but I would just love to see Sonic fans lose their minds over this. Imagine if they brought Sonic Man from Sonic. Oh my God. That'd be amazing.
00:45:30
Speaker
How cool would that be? Even if it was just an outfit, how cool would that be? It's like, never fear, I am here. If you put Sonic and Shadow in, they're just going to look like, you know when you see those modes of GTA? Yeah. And it's like Sonic and GTA, and it looks like 06 to put it nicely. Yeah, yeah. You've got the realistic humans, the realistic architecture, and then you've just got a massive hedgehog that doesn't fit the skeleton of the model. They make him buff like Peter Griffin. Yeah.
00:46:02
Speaker
What's your specialty? I have an eclipse cannon. Oh, oh no, thank you. No, I thought that would be a cool reveal. Oh, God, no, I don't want to wiggle this. Yeah, you know, I think we're tempting fate here. Yeah, because slowly you'll see in the distance or in the sky, there's like a space call when they are. Yeah. And the wind blows up or something. And it's like, coming soon, shadow the hedge. Oh, my God. I hope no. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, if the kids have fun. Yeah.
00:46:29
Speaker
This literally was just announced, but Disney invested $1.5 billion into Epic Games, so I don't know if that'll interfere with those plans. Oh no. Yeah, we're probably going to see a lot more Disney crossovers. Oh no. I mean, that's just going to be Kingdom Hearts, isn't it? You know what? Kind of.
00:46:51
Speaker
Just, you know, Donald Duck running around with an AK-47. I would love that. They're trying to gun down Woody from Toy Story as he's riding like the RV. Why am I loving this? Yeah, why are we tempting fate like this? I feel as if we are massively tempted to be. Yeah, sorry, before we wrap up, is there anything final that you want to talk about in regards to both Shadow the Hedgehog and the Year of the Shadow, I suppose, which still sounds less silly.
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think the only things I can really add at this point are I love Shadow. I really hope they do him justice because none of the stuff we've really talked about that's upcoming has really been given much info. So I hope they do him justice. And it seems like they're at least somewhat embracing him. So I'm hopeful, but we'll see over the course of this year. All we'll see is it will be interesting to see a new generation of Sonic fans experience Shadow the Hedgehog. Yes, yeah.
00:47:47
Speaker
That is the one thing I'm really fascinated by, the fact that there's a lot of kids who are growing up with Sonic the Hedgehog, and obviously they didn't grow up in the same, I'm going to use this in the nicest way possible, environment. Oh, yeah, I was going to say era. Well, era as well, yeah. The fact that we had the OCs, Donut Steel, which don't get me wrong, they still exist, you know, the whole Wild West internet culture, as it were, talking about Sonic, about Naso.
00:48:16
Speaker
As aware, or rather the screenshot from Sonic X, which I still think is hilarious. But still, it was a good fan film, but that's another thing. Even use the good in that, that's all we'll say. But it's interesting to see how kids these days will be introduced to Sonic from a different perspective. They won't grow up knowing really about the 2006 era until they dive right into the fanbase later on.
00:48:41
Speaker
or unless they play it early on, their exposure will be to the IDW comics, to Sonic Prime, to the films as well. So it'll be interesting to see how Sega, Paramount and everybody else involved, how they're going to handle that character, how they're going to use him moving forward because as old as I feel seeing this, it has been 23 years potentially. It was 2001, wasn't it?
00:49:07
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's been roughly give or take 23 years since Shadow was introduced and the fact that kids are now growing up and they are getting introduced to this character for the first time, they get a learn that he had a gun and whatnot.
00:49:22
Speaker
So it'll be interesting to see how much they will lean into the memory of it, how much they will lean into the jokes, how much they'll lean into the edginess, or if they'll just completely reinvent them and make them a compelling character again. So fingers crossed they do. And all I'll say as well is I am hyped, and I hope this is a case that Crush 40 are back again.
00:49:47
Speaker
Yeah, I've been seeing articles that say that Live and Learn was licensed, but Crush 40 aren't particularly involved with the movie. To be honest, if Live and Learn is in the film, I'll lose it. Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure that was already confirmed. Because I still can't believe that, and this is the final point I swear, but I still can't believe in, you know, the Sonic Adventure 2 adaptation in Sonic X? Yes. They had Live and Learn in the Japanese dub. Yes. And they didn't have it in the English dub, which tragedy.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yeah, I know. After tragedy, I don't know if that was a license issue or it's just four kids being four kids, but yeah, live and learn. If you haven't listened to that song, please do. That's one song. I'm just going to introduce live and learn to a new generation, so that's going to be even more awesome. But on that note, Shadow, as always, thank you so, so much for, once again, coming on the podcast and talking about Sonic. Shadow, sorry.
00:50:41
Speaker
yeah yeah thank you so much for having me and thank you for letting me rant about shadow you know i love him i mean goodness knows i'm called super shadow 271 i thought that was just a coincidence no that genuinely was because of shadow i was like he's my favorite character so why don't i just name myself after him i was going to say either that your parents were really hardcore sonic fans
00:51:05
Speaker
No, jokes aside, thank you so much. And before we wrap up, where can these lovely listeners at home find your content? Yeah, you can find me on Twitch, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, basically just search SuperShadow271 and you will find me.
00:51:23
Speaker
As always, if you want to listen to more episodes with us, you can indeed check us out at our website, chatsanami.com. I also want to thank our Pandora and Patrons, RoboticBatterToaster and Sonya. Thank you so, so much as always for supporting the show. And if you want bonus and exclusive content, you can check us out at patreon.com forward slash chatsanami. Until next time, stay safe, stay awesome. And most importantly, find that damn fourth chaos I brought. I had to say it.
00:52:20
Speaker
Thank you very much.