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What does it mean to be a Legend of Zelda Fan in 2023?
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In this episode, Satsunami and Andrew ask what it means to be a Legend of Zelda fan! From it's humble beginnings to it's debut on the Nintendo Switch, what does it truly mean to be a Legend of Zelda fan in 2023?
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Transcript
Intro & Guest Welcome
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Chatsunami and joining me today is another than the hero of time himself, Andrew. Andrew, welcome back. Glad to be back. Here to discuss another episode on The Legend of Zelda.
00:00:34
Speaker
Which a belief we've had. Well, this is the second episode, hasn't it? Yeah, we did what life would be like living in the Zelda world previously. So this is kind of the sequel to that, just kind of talking more generally about the franchise and our history with it and what it means to us.
New Zelda Game: Tears of the Kingdom
00:00:49
Speaker
When I thought I was out.
00:00:50
Speaker
They pulled me back in. Yeah, exactly. I've been asked to come back on here as the resident Legend of Zelda fan to discuss the games. And it's a particularly interesting period because we're just about to see the release of the latest Zelda game, Tears of the Kingdom. So I'm very excited to see what that will all be about. It's the sequel to the 2017 Breath of the Wild. So in six years now, I've been looking forward to this for a while.
00:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm surprised at the fact that we're a waste it, as bad as that sounds, because I always remember seeing the pop-ups from Nintendo saying, oh, we're going to have a direct in a couple of weeks, and everyone's saying, oh, we're going to have game X in here, like Metroid or something, and always laugh. Give a moment of silence for the poor silk song fans out there for holiday, because did they get anything? I don't think they got anything.
00:01:43
Speaker
I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. Pour one out for them. They're the real victims of this.
Zelda's Impact Since 1986
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, it was quite surprising when they said, oh, by the way, here's some taste footage and they brought it more of it and now we're here. Time flies. A couple of weeks as soon as this episode's out. Yeah.
00:02:01
Speaker
Zelda will be, or rather, the sequel to Breath of the Wild will be out. But yeah, you're right, today we're going to be taking a kind of step back in time, and we're going to be talking about really our experience with the franchise, but mainly yours, because as you said, you are indeed the official arrow of this particular game series. I'm going to put my cards on the table before we start here. I'm not going to pretend that I am the
00:02:28
Speaker
biggest Legends of Zelda fan, like I think it's a very well-constructed game. You're not.
00:02:34
Speaker
No, surprisingly, I think the clue dropped when I was on the Sonic episode. What it means to be a Sonic fan, and I was like, yeah, never really got into Zelda. Now, jokes aside, Zelda has always been there. It's been the gaming icon, especially when you look at games like Smash Bros, where you've got a bunch of different characters obviously coming together to punch each other in the face, as you do, family friendly. And
00:03:00
Speaker
Of course, Link was...is it right to say he was one of the main five in that roster? He was introduced as one of the original characters in that game, so I think anyone who had managed to miss The Legend of Zelda in the decade that preceded it was introduced to this green, tight-swearing, weird-hat guy with a sword in their fighting game. So I think a lot of people's childhood growing up with Smash Bros. might know Link better from that than the actual Zelda series.
00:03:29
Speaker
Well, it's the only reason I know the ice climbers. It's the only reason anyone knows the ice climbers. And this, technically, but let's not go down that rabbit hole. Oh yeah, Earthbound fans, we are with you. Like I can't do for Earthbound fans. Cry to your mother. Right. Yeah, go back to Zelda.
Original Zelda's Enduring Popularity
00:03:46
Speaker
Something that I was really surprised at was just how old this game is.
00:03:51
Speaker
That sounds weird to say considering we are hurtling towards the 13th – well, sorry, I'm already over that threshold. But it's amazing to think that this game came out in the 80s. 1986 was the debut of this game on the – I was about to say the Super Famicom, but I think it was just the Famicom. And it's really the mark of a good game, isn't it? That even years later, people are still talking about this game. They still have such a reverence
00:04:20
Speaker
for like ad Zelda? Yeah, I mean, it's not even just the fact of like the franchise and people's love for the franchise. It is that initial game that the fact that a game that came out in 1986 or 87 for the West still is popular as it is. There's still people that love to play the original game and they've re-released it on so many different platforms. The fact that it is now on the Switch Nintendo Entertainment System application,
00:04:46
Speaker
has allowed an entire new generation to experience it and play it. I completed it for the first time through that. I actually got given it by Satsunami as a GameCube game, but I ended up actually completing that through the Switch's version. So it wasn't until very recently, and I've been a Zelda fan for well over two decades, that I completed the initial game. And I tell you, it required some Googling to get past certain obstacles. So it's not an easy game. Yeah, those old games really aren't forgiving.
00:05:13
Speaker
I always remember going back to the old Sonic games and especially the first one, see when you go from the kind of more sleek game mechanics of the later games and then you have to go back all the way to the beginning when they're like, yeah, that pixel looks like Link or that pixel looks like Sonic or whatever, and then when you're playing it you're like, Jesus, how do people cope?
00:05:36
Speaker
Which, don't get me wrong, obviously, rivals should do it for the time and everything, and things change. What was so interesting about that first game was the save function mechanic. Really? I don't know if you are aware of this. The original Legend of Zelda was the first console game that had a save function so that you could stop playing at one point and then resume your game at a later point. It invented that function. I'm sorry, I thought that was kind of a general knowledge thing. I didn't realise you weren't aware otherwise I would have brought that up sooner.
Innovations in Early Zelda Games
00:06:02
Speaker
Every day is a learning day in Chatsunami. This is why I brought you on today.
00:06:07
Speaker
Save functions, Z targeting, who can say which is better? I mean there was also, this is something I was talking to you about before we came on, there was also, and I can't remember if it was the first or second game, I want to lean towards the first but I'm not 100% but I remember because it came out for the Super Famicom, there was about a microphone into the controller and I
00:06:31
Speaker
can't remember what type of villain that was called but there was a villain or rather a monster that when it came there you could shout into your controller and when you shouted into your controller the creature would just disappear. It would just go boop and that would be it. But of course when it came out in the West in 1987, apparently they technically have a kind of leftover thing in the guidebook. Remember guidebooks,
00:06:58
Speaker
they had one of them where it was like oh this creature doesn't like loud noises and that's the reason why because there's like a whole lot of Japanese kids that were raised shouting into their game consoles which I have to admit their parents must have loved that they must have thought oh this is a nice you know quiet cam game and then you've got like this kid going ah
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, fun times for them. I can't imagine that they would have sent over that to the Nintendo of America and they would have been like, so you're telling me that we're trying to encourage small children to shout at their televisions and do you think the parents will get on board with this? What I love about that imagery is they thought that that wasn't acceptable, but giving children a gun and duck hunt was.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, you can shoot these ducks, but yeah, we're done to the TV, that's a big no-no.
Podcast Introductions
00:07:56
Speaker
That's a step too far, mister. And on that horrifying realisation, well, we'll just jump into the main meat of the episode. Yeah, let's do this. We will be right back after these triforces of messages. Excuse me, Princess.
00:08:10
Speaker
Welcome to Chatanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatanami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:08:29
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:09:29
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zencaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zencaster comes in. Before I met Zencaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low quality,
Andrew's Zelda Journey
00:09:44
Speaker
one-track audio waves.
00:10:04
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
00:10:15
Speaker
So Andrew, turning it on you, because as we established in the intro there, you are indeed the Zelda aficionado you grew up with this series. What was the turning point? Where did it all go wrong, Andrew?
00:10:30
Speaker
Like many things in my childhood, you can probably track it down to what my brother was up to. My brother was a big fan of the Nintendo 64 Zelda games. He loved Ocarina of Time. He really liked Majora's Mask. And also at a later point, he had the GameCube and played Wind Waker. And so I was very much the younger brother who kind of got to play those games. It wasn't my game. I mostly kind of watched him play the games, but I was so invested.
00:10:56
Speaker
in this series more so than any other video game kind of series at the time I was so so invested in any of these Zelda games I thought they were so interesting they were so cool the whole idea of this kind of medieval aspect with the swords and the monsters you're fighting I was really into knights and armor growing up I had lots of figurines I play with when I was very young to that effect and so a video game that I kind of had control of that I didn't have to use my imagination as much I could see on the television and
00:11:23
Speaker
and experience it in that way. It was groundbreaking for me. It was fundamental and shaped my idea of a fantasy of what video games could be and what they should be like. And that kind of stayed with me for a very long time. My first Zelda game that I remember playing all the way through that it was my game and that I completed it on my own was Twilight Princess on the Wii in 2005, 2006. That was the real start
00:11:49
Speaker
for me as a true Zelda fan. I had been replaying Wind Waker and Ocarina Time and Majora's Mask, but I was quite young and couldn't quite figure out a lot of the more complex aspects of those games, so I would never complete them. Things like Majora's Mask, I would open my brother's save file, which was at the very end of the game where he'd already done everything, and then I would fight and beat the final boss. But I wouldn't be able to get to that point, so I found that very, very tricky. I don't know if you had any kind of experience like that with video games growing up.
00:12:18
Speaker
It's quite surprising because as we established, Zelda was a very prominent franchise and this is going to sound like probably one of the most controversial gaming takes that I'm going to probably say, so please phone the lawyer, or the Red Panda lawyer because we're going to need him. But yeah, Zelda just skipped me over. I knew
00:12:39
Speaker
of it. Then I knew of it through Smash Bros and this is going to be a source that can point for you, I apologise. But do you remember Youtube Poops? I'm familiar with Youtube Poops. Yeah, we are. For some reason there was two particular games, Technically 3 if you include the two Zelda games, but there were three particular games
00:13:01
Speaker
that they always used. They always used Hotel Mario, and they always used the two Zelda CDI games, which I feel as if this was probably the Zelda equivalent of Sonic 06 for Sonic
00:13:17
Speaker
where it was just this weird… I don't want to say nonsensical, because I haven't played it myself, but it just seemed like a fever dream. I mean, it's not even Sonic 06. It's a little bit ashamed of Sonic 06, but they still count it as one of their games. Nintendo has distanced themselves completely from the CD-i games. It says that these are not Nintendo games. We do not consider these to be Zelda games. This is an external company where we have nothing to do with them. They have pushed these games so far away from their reputation as so as not to be infected by them.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's like, you're that episode of The Simpsons with the monorail, where they go to the town that had the last monorail, and it's the women saying, there ain't never been a monorail service here, as opposed to the shutter and it's like monorail cafe or something. It's like that with the tendos.
00:14:02
Speaker
There ain't never been a Zelda CD-i game. That is actually really surprising that even Nintendo were distancing themselves from this switch. On the other hand, I can understand that take.
00:14:20
Speaker
But as I said, I never knew anybody with a CD-i. I never even knew CD-i's existed until much later when they got into gaming history and things like that. Yeah, I only know of the existence of a CD-i because of those Zelda games and their infamy.
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, those kinds of consoles that because of a random or infamous game, that's the only reason people know about them really. Unless there's that one CDI fan out there who's crying into his pillow, just like, it was a good console. If you're out there, please feel free to contact us, because I'm out of morbid curiosity. I would love to know if you exist, but
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah, going back to Zelda though, I remember not playing much of it. I knew of it, but I never really got a chance to play it. And I remember I was always, or not always, but I was on the internet quite a lot. So I got exposed to a lot of, you know, like the creepy pastas. You'll probably be familiar with like Ben Drowned and the creepy Majora's Mask imagery. I'm familiar with those and the Pokemon group pastas and that kind of stuff.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah, where it was like, oh, it's realistic blood and they got this curse copy from a garage sale. What kind of garage sales do they have in America? I don't know, but they're all haunted and just cursed. I know, it's the worst. You just stopped going to the garage sale in that graveyard.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah, but where are you going to get your cursed copy of Pokemon? I don't know, Death Edition? I think it was like Emerald or something. Rayquaza's eyes were skeletons. I don't even know if creepypastas are still a thing, but see if they are. It's depressing to think that people will be like, I got a hunch as copy of Breath of the Wild, and you're like, no.
00:16:05
Speaker
No, go back to Majora's man. Yeah, that was my kind of exposure to Zelda. And I remember years and years later getting the Gamecube and I was really into everything. And I remember thinking, oh well, I've never really gotten to Zelda so I'll try Wind Waker, which probably not the best game to start off on because I initially expected Link, which obviously you do play as Link, but I didn't expect Toon Link.
00:16:32
Speaker
So when they printed up the game, I was like, huh, so this is the Legend of Zelda. Also, I adore Wind Waker. Wind Waker is one of my favourite games, but a very fundamental part of Zelda, I feel like, is the kind of rolling fields, which you don't get when it's an entirely ocean-based game. Maybe not the best game to start on, but it is one of my favourites. I love Wind Waker. It's very stylistic.
00:16:54
Speaker
which I have to admit is one of the things I did love about it, but I never really completed it until you and I were at university, and I think you only did it earlier, but both said in past episodes that we played the route from start to finish. Or I say we. I played bits of it, and you finished the majority of it, and we finished the game and everything, and it was a good experience.
00:17:18
Speaker
Yeah, it was a very fun core memory of university, actually, I think it also kind of set up this kind of idea to me of us doing content together that when we were kind of riffing off of the game, having fun, I kind of got the kind of impression that was almost like, like a game grumps type back and forth.
Nostalgic Gaming Anecdotes
00:17:33
Speaker
I remember at the time thinking like, Hey, we could we could totally be like, let's play content creators and nothing ended up happening for four years after that.
00:17:41
Speaker
or Wind Waker. I remember having friends at school who had, oh god, I think it was like the crossbow training or something.
00:18:11
Speaker
or so and then I stop playing entirely. KM at the same time I think they probably released it and this is coming from a video I was watching of all things on. Do you remember the GoldenEye remake that they brought out for the Wii? Oh yeah, I also played that a lot. Yeah, it was the fact that they brought it out for the Wii because they were really struggling with first-person shooters for the Wii.
00:18:33
Speaker
Yeah, there seemed to be an odd kind of period where Nintendo had kind of set themselves up as the kiddie console, whereas Xbox and PlayStation were like extreme edgy gaming. And Nintendo, instead of kind of embracing what they were, they kind of wanted to try and keep up with Microsoft and Sony at the time, they didn't really seem to kind of know that's not what people wanted from them.
00:18:54
Speaker
And those kind of games weren't ever very successful and don't age particularly well, whereas Nintendo's tried and tested games like Mario, like Zelda, those stand the test of time generally. So it always feels better seeing those games from Nintendo than what they were attempting to do in the early Wii days of keeping up with Microsoft and Sony's more R-rated, edgy kind of style.
00:19:16
Speaker
Would you say, though, that games like Twilight Princess was influenced by that time period, though? Because for the early games, you know, they were bright, they were colourful, you know, they figured the psyche wears a green tunic. But by the end of the GameCube era, where, you know, you had Wind Waker with the cartoony looks, and even before that you had God forbid the CDI, as we mentioned, would you say that Twilight Princess, which is a game I know, has a
00:19:43
Speaker
more darker tone. I mean Majora's Mask notwithstanding, but would you say that was kind of influential for that game? I think to an extent maybe. What my understanding is was that when they created Wind Waker, there was a lot of people that were upset that we had a GameCube demo video that showed a relatively high definition version of an Ocarina of Time style fighting situation.
00:20:11
Speaker
that people then thought this was what the new Zelda game was going to be. On mainline consoles, we'd had Ocarina of Time and then Majora's Mask, which had taken its darker tone. And what people would then met with was Wind Waker, a much more cartoony, childlike. The art style was very much diverged from what we'd seen with the prior two Nintendo 64 games.
00:20:32
Speaker
And so whilst Wind Waker now is kind of looked back on with such fondness, there was a lot of negativity surrounding the game initially. And Nintendo being quite reactionary thought like, okay, the next game needs to answer this kind of criticism. We need to go to a more dark kind of situation like we had with Majora's Mask.
00:20:52
Speaker
And we need to kind of make it look a little bit more realistic, kind of sticking to, not realistic per se, but sticking to a less cartoony style. We want to try and make it look a bit like Ocarina of Time if it had a graphical improvement. And so that's kind of what we got from Twilight Princess that we got this storyline that was dark and more than
Wind Waker's Art Style Reactions
00:21:10
Speaker
just name. Like, I mean, Twilight kind of shows that, Hey, this, this is, this is much darker than what you're used to. This isn't your grandpappy's Zelda game. I think I might've already used that joke in what I said earlier.
00:21:19
Speaker
And so yeah, there was certainly an influence from what was the games of the time, these kind of more edgy, darker games, but I think a lot of it was reactionary from the response to Wind Waker. That is amazing to think though. Especially when the Wii U came out and was it that console that they brought out, the remaster for Wind Waker? Yes, yes it did.
00:21:40
Speaker
It's crazy to think that they had such a reverence for this particular game. They're like, oh, this is what the fans want. They want a remaster of this particular game. But from what you've said, it's crazy to think that people didn't like
00:21:59
Speaker
Wind Waker, because I have to admit, it's an outlier of the Zelda community. I've never really seen many people complain about it, but it's amazing to think that there was, and again, I don't want to say hostility because it's a Zelda game, people with pitchforks and Majora's masks running in and going like, oh, we wouldn't take it off completely. But going back to what you were saying about wanting a game that resembled Ocarina of Time and Majora's masks,
00:22:26
Speaker
Ocarina of Time seems to be one of those games that really represents Zelda. I feel especially in the same way that Super Mario 64 represents the origins of Mario in the 3D sphere, because I'm a correct insane other than the Zelda CD-i games which I know technically they're more sprite based and FMV based.
00:22:50
Speaker
Was Ocarina of Time the first foray into the 3D world for Zelda? To an extent, I don't know what you would necessarily class something like Link to the Past as because there is a three-dimensional element to it, more so than we'd seen with the original Legend of Zelda game and much more so than we saw with Legend of Zelda 2, which was much more side-scrolling. I believe in between that there was Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, but I might be getting my Zelda timeline mixed up. I'll have to reference the old Google search for that one. But
00:23:19
Speaker
Ochre time was certainly unique. Ochre time had come at a period which pushed Nintendo back into the limelight that it was fighting against Sega or something new. And you have these three dimensional titles from such popular game series like Mario, like Legend of Zelda to compete against.
00:23:38
Speaker
the Sonic games that were coming out. So I can't say for certain the originality of its 3D game, because I think it depends on your kind of definition of what a 3D game necessarily is, but it certainly was a unique game for its time that it kind of introduced so many people to a very different way of playing
Legacy of Ocarina of Time
00:23:56
Speaker
a game. Despite the fact now looking at it, it does look very janky, very polygonal.
00:24:00
Speaker
But, contemporarily, it amazed people that games could look like this, that it could look so real. And I know that even though, like, Link looks super, like, pointy and not like a real person, lots of girls talk about, like, how they had a huge crush on this Link. I'm sure it was this actual awakening for a lot of people. It's so funny when you see it now. I mean, it's not really any different to saying, like, Lara Croft, when she uses, like, spade face and pointy boobs. Topplerone chest, yeah. Yes, the Topplerone chest, exactly.
00:24:25
Speaker
And it is so interesting now seeing the reactions of people to those games of like the, wow, this is what games can do. This is incredible. And that you kind of look at it now and you're going like, eh. And just kind of going on from that as kind of a good example is my partner. She played Breath of the Wild, which was the first Zelda game sort of that she ever played and loved it. Absolutely adores Breath of the Wild.
00:24:49
Speaker
And so I, loving Legend of Zelda myself, said, oh great, you really like Legend of Zelda game. Let me now introduce you to the back catalogue of other Zelda games. So I introduced her to Ocarina of Time and she just got so frustrated that she was being railroaded in the game. The graphics didn't look as nice. It wasn't as pretty. The mechanic of turning your character was so awkward and janky and she kept falling off of things so much.
00:25:14
Speaker
And it just wasn't a pleasant gaming experience for her because she went from the more modern game backwards to that game. And I was so upset because I really wanted her to enjoy it, but I could understand what it was that was putting her off of this game because I'd had similar experiences when I tried to play the older Zelda games after being used to more modern games. And I have since kind of gotten the handle of it and do enjoy those older games, but it took a very long time for me to kind of embrace that.
00:25:40
Speaker
nostalgia is a powerful thing though to be fair, and you're 100% right. There have been so many games that I've looked at very fondly in the past, they've said, this is the best game ever, you know, it looks so good and then all of a sudden you actually go back to said game and you're like,
00:26:00
Speaker
Jesus Christ, what? All who go like this? Your main character? Is it this? Is it that? Of all the things, funny enough, I always remember saying to a friend, and I actually replayed this game recently with someone, and it is awful, but do you remember GoldenEye Rogue Agent? Yes. It was a really fun game at the time, but I remember seeing it more recently and just being like, wow, this does not age well. Oh, it's rough.
00:26:27
Speaker
it really is rough. As I said, I played it with a friend recently and it just didn't age well at all. It was tanky, it wasn't great, but don't worry, that's an episode for another day. I always remember when I was in university, funny enough, and one of my friends came up to visit and we went into this second-hand DVD shop. You know exactly the one I'm talking about, Andrew.
00:26:54
Speaker
No. C-E-X, okay. C-E-X. I refused to call it by its name, its Christian name. But I always remember we went in and that was actually the first time that I had picked up Timespotters, which that was a great experience. But we saw Golden Eye Rogue Agent for, I think it was like 50p or something.
00:27:13
Speaker
really dark cheap. And I was like, oh this game's great, it's fantastic, you're gonna love it. Put it in immediately, it was a blurry mess, it was just pixelated, it wasn't great. Which is weird because it's a 3D game, but you're linking it back to Zelda. It is amazing how you remember things differently in your head. You think, oh this game is the absolute pinnacle of graphics, of gameplay, things like that. And you just
00:27:37
Speaker
get used to it though, you do really get used to that in your head and then when you play modern games and you have to backtrack on yourself if that makes sense, because I know exactly what you mean with Breath of the Wild, it is very innovative and it's so innovative in fact that it's become the new, you know that phrase that gaming journalists like to use, they say it's like Skyrim but with X, or rather they used to say that like it's Skyrim but with guns or it's this or that.
00:28:07
Speaker
Now they've started using Breath of the Wild. They've been using it for a while, mind you. Like with the new Sonic game, Sonic Frontiers, they said. It's like a Breath of the Wild style game, and it's like, really? You can tell how respected the game series is just by that. You know, everybody's clamouring to be the next Breath of the Wild. From what I've seen of Sonic Frontiers, it feels more like Shadow of the Colossus meets Sonic. On a side note, I was a bit of an apologist of a language here. I was a bit of a petty bitch.
00:28:35
Speaker
because I heard this people were saying, oh it's like Breath of the Wild and I've played Breath of the Wild with you on stream with the old Let's Play series we used to do and I enjoyed that. It was a good time but it ran really well.
00:28:50
Speaker
and ironically enough I saw the game not running well stop the presses. That's funny on several levels. Oh it really is. I always remember them saying that, oh this was going to be a Breath of the Wild game. So I put my money down and I said right and I bought it for the Nintendo Switch because I was like, if you're going to sit there and say this is Breath of the Wild-esque,
00:29:12
Speaker
then it better run like a Breath of the Wild game.
Cost of Nintendo Games
00:29:15
Speaker
Spoilers are done. Yeah, again, that's more to do with the switch and its optimisation, but don't come at me saying that, oh, it's like Breath of the Wild and everything, or a Breath of the Wild-esque game. Don't come at me saying that when that obviously isn't, but that's a whole rant for a different episode. But kind of curiosity, kind of going back a wee bit to talk about the N64 era with
00:29:38
Speaker
Ocarina of Time as we said, which I have to say, and I'm ashamed to say this, but the first exposure I had to playing that game was the 3DS version. The 3DS version actually is alright. I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, it wasn't great. But out of curiosity, see when you were going to school and things and you were talking to your friends,
00:30:20
Speaker
was it popular
00:30:28
Speaker
I saw no issue that I was like, yeah, of course. It's a Legends of the Other game. Of course I am. And I look back now and been like, oh, so many memories that could have been created instead of nightmares from fighting the same boss a third time. I don't like that game.
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah, is that one of the lesser favoured games in the community? I would certainly say it's lesser favoured in the community. I think there are people that do like it. Playing through it for the first time, there were certainly things I was frustrated about, but I did, for the most part, enjoy the game and enjoy the story. And so I'm overly critical of it, I think, because there is a level of enjoyment I do have with it. But I think it is a weaker entry than most.
00:31:04
Speaker
And I have the remake, I very kindly got that as a present from family member, which I've not yet finished actually. I need to get around to doing that. But they did fix some issues within the remake, but some of the issues are quite fundamental to the game. So they can unfortunately be fixed. Those who have played the game will be kind of aware of some of these issues, the very empty hub world of Skyloft.
00:31:27
Speaker
and like the flying around not really giving you much to do and then repeating the same areas over and over again in the kind of lower world and having to fight this one particular boss several times became very taxing and uninteresting and then throwing in the motion controls which didn't always do what you wanted them to do made the the entire experience a bit frustrating at times
00:31:46
Speaker
There's only games that made me angrier, and there's probably even Zelda games that I've been angrier at than Skyward Sword, but it always feels much more daunting to kind of get into than most Zelda games. Like I would happily restart Wind Waker, I'd happily restart Ocarina of Time, but getting back into Skyward Sword and like remembering a lot of things that I'd have to go and do is always a bit harder to motivate myself to do.
00:32:06
Speaker
One unfortunate thing is that Nintendo brought out a HD remake of both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess on the Wii U, a console that I never got. And so I would have loved to have been able to play those games again and updated higher resolution on a console that I have, but I didn't get the opportunity to likewise with Ocarina of Time on the 3DS. I've only ever played them in their original format, either through like an emulated version on the Switch or on Nintendo 64.
00:32:32
Speaker
or I think there was like a version of the GameCube and so I've not played like an updated version of those games and I'd really like to. I really want Nintendo to re-release on Switch. I don't think it'd be that difficult. So it's strange that they've delayed those releases so much.
00:32:44
Speaker
Yeah, I feel as if that's a Nintendo centric problem overall with a lot of their IPs, like especially with Pokémon, that's a whole other thing. They've got the games there and everything, and the fact that, and again, you know, for legal reasons not endorsing ROMs or anything, their emulation, but the fact that in like the 2005 onwards, or maybe further on, maybe later like 2008, 2010, the fact that
00:33:13
Speaker
that you could emulate Pokémon games and all these different types of games compared to what Nintendo's putting out. They'll put out an emulation of a particular game that runs really poorly, and then they'll have that shocked Pikachu face of, oh, why are people pirating my stuff?
00:33:32
Speaker
Well, you're not really giving them any option. It is weird that they haven't re-released it. You know, they re-released Skyward Sword, which, am I correct in saying that was like, at least here, £60, or like, ridiculously expensive.
00:33:47
Speaker
Switch games. It was the same as any if you're buying Breath of the Wild or anything like that. They've gone very expensive. I just purchased or just pre-ordered Tears of the Kingdom. And in Canadian dollars, it was like $90 plus tax. So it was over $100 when you included tax. And that's just ridiculous. It's so much money to purchase these video games, but they've put a lot of time and effort into them and we enjoy them. So can't complain too much. But
00:34:09
Speaker
Do you remember Nintendo brought out Mario Gold Special Edition or something, and it had a collection of Mario 64 Sunshine and Galaxy, I think? Oh yeah. Did you buy that? I think I bought it, yeah, all the way to realise that it was like a limited release.
00:34:25
Speaker
Yeah, so the kind of rumors are going around was that Nintendo would do the same thing, but for Zelda and the games that would be kind of chosen for that and the suspicion was that we would get like a Wind Waker included in that we would get maybe a Twilight Princess included in that and then we just didn't get anything like that. And so there's kind of a big disappointment and like Nintendo are pretty good generally at when there are big like anniversaries for games of releasing content to kind of coincide with that.
00:34:50
Speaker
Skyward Sword I believe came out on the 25th anniversary of the franchise and so that was a whole big deal. I got a CD packaged in with my game that had like an album of the great songs from Legend of Zelda and that was like a really cool thing to have and be included in the game. But then the 35th anniversary just passed and we got nothing and I don't think anything particular happened on the 30th anniversary either if I remember correctly but I might be wrong.
00:35:14
Speaker
maybe there was like a compendium, like a Zelda Hyrule Historia or something came out then maybe. I'm not sure. But yeah, no, they've kind of dropped the ball a little bit with their anniversaries recently. ALICE I mean, it's Nintendo we're talking about here. Yeah, it's not like it's an indie studio that's, you know, struggling or anything. So yeah, that is weird that they've put their old one for the 25th anniversary and then they kind of thought, eh, it's only 30.
00:35:35
Speaker
It's only 35, it's only this and that. So the 35th anniversary, was that 2021? Am I correct in saying? The 35th would have been 2021, yeah. We're three years off of the 40th anniversary of the Legend of Zelda series. That's crazy. Yeah, it is absolutely wild that the game franchise has been out as long as it has. It's a very long time. Oh, I tell you a lie, I think in the 30th anniversary they did the concert. Oh yeah. They did the Bald of the Goddess tour or something.
00:36:01
Speaker
I did go to that in Glasgow and I'm trying to remember what year that would have been. It would have been a while ago now. Time flies. Or rather, time flies when you pull a sword out of stone. See, I've got Zelda references as well.
00:36:13
Speaker
You fool, that was Arthur. No, it's not that what he does in Ocarina of Time. He pulls the sword out the sword, or did he put the sword back there? He does a bit of both actually, because you trigger the time travel event by pulling the sword out or putting it back in. You have to go to the temple and either fast forward or reverse time by doing that. As we discussed in the Living in the Zelda universe episode, pushing back glasses, go check that out. That was a great episode, but
00:36:35
Speaker
It really makes me not want to take up pottery as a hobby in that universe. I don't want any children in green tunics coming in and smashing all my bullets. Well, maybe it's really good business. He's been hired by Big Pottery to smash all up so people have to go to their Kiln Master. Pottery barns been awful quiet since this episode, at least. I don't care.
00:36:56
Speaker
I know, but I can't think of a... Can you think of a pottery shop? This is just like when Adam and I were talking about, I think it was the anniversary episode where we were talking about does the works count as an origami shop? Pottery aside though, yeah that was a good episode though. I would highly recommend everyone to listen to that one because it's
00:37:17
Speaker
didn't entear me, I have to say, to living in the world, but I can't deny what I will say is, it's something that I feel regretful in a way of, not getting into the series sooner, because the amount of lore, and this is gonna make me sound like such a nerd, be like the lore and everything, but yeah.
00:37:37
Speaker
out of a lore that Zelda does have is absolutely astounding. I still can't believe that of course long term listeners of Chatsunami will know that before you started going by Andrew, which of course you're in, but before you were referred to as Green Shield, which obviously I won't go into the origin of said name, but I always thought that was a Zelda reference, yeah the lore.
00:38:02
Speaker
But I genuinely thought that that was a Zelda reference because I was like, oh yeah, he's got a green shield. Oh, of course. He's green. He has a shield. He must be green shield. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. And then you're like, no he's not. This was like a brain fart meets Mandela effect. Yeah, I was gonna say it was like some weird Mandela effect, but like only you.
Andrew's Nickname Misunderstanding
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, but I was like,
00:38:23
Speaker
No, he has a green shield and I looked and I'm like, oh my God, of course he has a blue shield. It's not like I've been playing video games all my life. I was like, oh, I was so embarrassed by that. I was like, oh God, of course. So yeah, going back to Zelda though, it is absolutely amazing that and probably next week, when this episode airs, next week will be the debut of Tears of the Kingdom. I suppose the basic question that I've got to ask you first is,
00:38:52
Speaker
Wait, is Tears of the Kingdom coming out at the same time as the coronation of Charles? The week after. Yeah, did you not see the discourse on Twitter for that? I saw the discourse on the Queen dying and delaying the announcement because the Queen had just died. Yeah, that's actually surprising. No, not surprising. It's obviously a coincidence because I'm sure they've been planning this for ages. Do you think the PR department must have been the uproar over it? God damn it.
00:39:20
Speaker
It sounds like a South Park episode, doesn't it? Obviously you're looking forward to it because you pre-ordered the damn thing. At the same time though, have you got any expectations for it or what do you expect it as well? Well, what was quite interesting about this build up to this game is with Breath of the Wild, I felt like there was such a big build up of seeing the gameplay, having all these kind of demos, this big kind of marketing push.
00:39:46
Speaker
around it, the fact that it was also the kind of opening title with switch coming out. So like you had a lot more demos regarding the switch kind of see its capabilities capacity. Whereas this is like there was a trailer a long time ago for it. And then nothing for a very long time with Nintendo has been like, we promise we're working on it, we're getting there. And so I was with like next to nothing coming out for so long, but they'd been maintaining like, yes, we're gonna make the spring 2023 deadline.
00:40:11
Speaker
I was like, there is no way in hell that they are going to keep to that timeline when we have heard next to nothing about the gameplay. There's been no release about that whatsoever. But fair enough, they've managed to keep to that timeline. Hopefully the game is good and not super janky or anything like that. Sometimes it's a little bit suspicious when you don't really see much surrounding it, like not completed or something like that. But Nintendo are not usually that kind of company. They have a pretty good seal of approval, especially with their own IP. So what you're saying is they're not Sega. I mean, they do what Nintendo don't.
00:40:39
Speaker
don't they? So I was nervous for a long time, kind of the build up to this game, just having not heard anything about it, but I'm very excited. They've been releasing some stuff more recently, showcasing some new building mechanics that you have within the game and different power sets that you have. The graphical output seems to be very similar to Breath of the Wild and seemingly kind of the same world with a few landmark tweaks, including more of a vertical element where you have this kind of world in the sky, hopefully dealt with better than Skyward Sword did. And so
00:41:09
Speaker
I'm really looking forward to this game. I imagine around a little while after the game comes out, we might do a analysis of it or perhaps we'll do some recorded gameplay of it. I'm not sure, but I'm really looking forward to playing the game and hopefully I can convince Satsunami to get on board with it. I know you're getting back into Breath of the Wild so that you can talk about that a little bit more.
00:41:27
Speaker
A spoiler for next week's episode, but we are of course going to be talking. As topical as it is, we're going to be reviewing Breath of the Wild, which is only what, six years too late? I would have reviewed to say it's good. Obviously everybody knows. If you guys haven't heard about this game, you should play it. That pretty much sums up most Zelda games, doesn't it? It's like, it's good, go buy it. The only ones I think you would struggle to say that about is
00:41:56
Speaker
robot with the CD-i games. I wouldn't recommend Four Swords personally, I don't like those games. They had a Game Boy Advance version, they also had a GameCube version. There was that wire where you could plug your Game Boy Advance into your GameCube and it would like connect characters or something. It was like there was some weird stuff Nintendo had going on with those kind of things. They loved their little gimmicky elements. Nintendo, they loved doing some weird stuff like that, like gyroscopic movement in games and adding elements where you could print off
00:42:22
Speaker
something from your games like the Nintendo printer and as you mentioned earlier the the microphone feature and the Famicom system in Japan. I mean I'm looking over right now at the GameCube I've got on one of my shelves and I've actually got you know the adapter for the GBA games you can actually
00:42:40
Speaker
actually put in, so you can slot the Game Boy Advance games underneath and you had to put in the special disc into the GameCube so you could actually play Game Boy games or the GameCube, which don't get me wrong, it's cool and everything, but some gimmicks probably don't hold up as well. I mean even in Sonic games and things, there's a lot of Game Boy Advance
00:43:01
Speaker
crossover, like with the child guard and things like that, so I can only imagine it would be probably worse for Zelda without being, you know, its IP. Because am I right in saying that? I don't work in going from a positive to a negative here, but am I right in saying that Zelda has a lot of gimmicks when it comes to each game
00:43:22
Speaker
It varies from game to game, but a lot of the time there'll be certain elements that the game loves to utilize. In Skyward Sword, there was a particular element with gyroscope controls. There was this like remote controlled beetle thing that you could fly around and you were like navigating with your remote, just kind of moving it, moving your remote and tilting it in certain directions. Because you had the Wii Motion Plus, I don't know if you remember the Wii Motion Plus.
00:43:43
Speaker
Oh, was that like the big block? Yeah, like a block attachment you put onto your Wii controller so you could play Wii Sports Resort and those kind of games. One of the big kind of things that Zelda games did was that for each temple that you were going through, you would unlock an item that would allow you to progress the remainder of that temple and would usually be the weakness of the boss at the end of that temple.
00:44:04
Speaker
You can be pretty confident that if you're going through the temple and you finally get the bow and arrow, you're like, okay, the final enemy's gonna have a giant eyeball that I have to shoot. I mean, that's just video game 101, isn't it? Where it's like, yeah, here's like a bunch of ammo, here's some chased firewalls. Good luck, soldier!
00:44:19
Speaker
See if you think about it though, this is kind of as a concluding point, but if you think about it, Zelda does encapsulate a lot of the traditional elements of video games that nowadays we kind of make fun of or we take for granted, but I mean back then, they were really pioneers, weren't they? I mean obviously they embraced those tropes, but would you say that was kind of part of their charm?
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think the, I mean, I was just saying earlier, we're talking about pioneering with the likes of the save function and Z targeting being the first in video games to do that. That was like super, super unique and as you said, for pioneering, but then within the actual structure of the stories and
Zelda's Influence on Fantasy Games
00:45:02
Speaker
the narrative. Yeah, I mean, it's very tropey, but they were one of the kind of the original fantasy games that did that. You start out in Link to the Past with your uncle saying like Zelda is your destiny or says Zelda is your and then you don't find out the rest of
00:45:15
Speaker
Well, yeah, does he not die before he can reveal it? Oh, sorry, spoilers, but it does happen. It's the start of the game. It's the first scene of the game. I think the implication is that it's destiny, but a lot of people have sort of had fun with that and sort of saying like, Zelda's my what? Zelda's my what? That's all very interesting, seeing this type that like these Zelda games did both embrace and influence the tropes of that genre, that they were able to showcase these fun storylines of, oh, that the princess needs to be saved. So
00:45:42
Speaker
the bad guys captured her, or she's been puppeteered, or some other royal family is having some sort of dispute that you have to settle, these side quests that you have to accomplish in order to move on to the next section of the game. I'm not going to say these were original to the Zelda franchise, I'm sure there were other games that did this first, but it became such an iconic staple of the Zelda franchise, which I think did influence the games that followed it, both in the Zelda franchise and in a wider gaming landscape.
00:46:09
Speaker
And so there is so much to admire both from a historical perspective of Zelda and from a contemporary perspective of looking at what the games now are doing and how they're performing. Breath of the Wild came at a time when there wasn't as much confidence in the Zelda franchise after Skyward Sword.
00:46:25
Speaker
and they were able to create what is one of the best games, in my opinion, ever made, and was such a highly praised game. And so you're then excited for what is to come, what Tears of the Kingdom can do, if it can build off of that. It has a very high bar to try and reach, but we'll have to wait and see. And we'll talk more about what Breath of the Wild kind of accomplished and what it sets up in our
Fan Anticipation for Zelda Releases
00:46:45
Speaker
next episode. But yeah, I'll hand over to you to your final kind of remarks on the franchise and lead us out.
00:46:50
Speaker
that not only did this franchise pioneer a whole genre as it were of gaming but also in a way was so divisive which has been quite surprising to learn throughout this because you always see the fans come out in droves, like is it safe to say that you know a lot of Zelda fans no offense are quite vocal about their love like in the nicest way possible, I mean they're quite vocal about how much they do love this series.
00:47:17
Speaker
I think yes. What's interesting is if you'd asked me that six years ago, six, seven years ago, I would have said, not really, I've not really heard any Zelda fans. I've not really seen any other Zelda fans like out and about, but now just kind of more so over in North America, I think than in what I was used to in the UK.
00:47:33
Speaker
Just going around, people will be wearing Legend of Zelda t-shirts, backpacks. The kind of online interest in it is ravenous. When you watch like a Nintendo Direct, the majority of comments are like, what's this? This isn't Zelda. Show Zelda. We want Zelda. Level of comments. And so there is a fervor for the franchise that I was not familiar with growing up.
00:47:52
Speaker
that it felt very much like an insular, a game that only my family played. I played, my brother played it, I played it, my sister was aware of it, I think maybe played some of it. Outside of that, it wasn't really a thing. And that I was the weird one that played this fantasy game with a green guy in tights and a funny hat, that this wasn't a huge franchise game. And I didn't realize how big of a franchise game it was, that it was so important to so many people.
00:48:16
Speaker
and so kind of getting outside of that bubble and realising that outside of that bubble there's another bubble but it's much, much wider. It was interesting that there is a community out there and there is an interest for these games. And it is absolutely fantastic to see that though. Even in the last episode that I had done with Wisteria both regarding the Sonic franchise where we talked about this kind of need to... And it sounds like really dramatic to say, oh yeah,
00:48:42
Speaker
to keep it under wraps and things.
Reigniting Zelda Interest with Breath of the Wild
00:48:44
Speaker
I don't think people growing up nowadays with these games really know the social stigma behind certain games, especially with Legends of Zelda. Legends of Zelda is, by all means, a fantasy adventure game, and the whole idea about, for example, the key one to think of is Dungeons and Dragons, which
00:49:09
Speaker
wasn't really as popularish, but it still had that social stigma until other things like Critical Role and so on, those kinds of shows came along and popularised it again, so then it came into the mainstream fandom, as it were. So, feel as if Zelda, maybe not to the same extent, I wouldn't say that, but with Breath of the Wild, especially, you're completely right, it does feel as if that is the game that is reignited
00:49:39
Speaker
the interest in the franchise again, because I have to say, even I bought Breath of the Wild, although I haven't completed it but I'm working on it, trust me, but it is weird to see that people who didn't really initially have an interest in Zelda are all of a sudden coming back to because of Breath of the Wild.
00:49:59
Speaker
I mean, it was like what you were saying with your partner that she wasn't that big a Zelda fan and everything, and then all of a sudden she loved Breath of the Wild because it is just so expansive. You can explore places, you can... I'm not gonna say, oh, you can do anything, and I don't have to say, oh, you know, it's a bit cellular after such years. But as a closing point, is there anything you would say to aspiring Zelda fans, people wanting to get into the franchise for the first time?
Zelda Recommendations for New Players
00:50:28
Speaker
My recommendation to new Zelda fans, to maybe those who haven't played any of the games yet, I would suggest not playing Breath of the Wild first. I think that there is a risk of a similar thing happening to what happened with my partner of you not being able to then kind of appreciate the journey of the games franchise to that point. Everything after Breath of the Wild, to those who don't have existing nostalgia for it, feels incomplete.
00:50:50
Speaker
So I would recommend starting with either Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past and trying from there. But if you've already played Breath of the Wild, I would suggest try Wind Waker. I think you'll like Wind Waker. And you have, hopefully, after experiencing what is happening in the more recent games, you'll have quite a good journey ahead of you. You're going to enjoy Zelda games for years to come. You have a huge backlog of games that you can fall back to. Hopefully with Tears of the Kingdom coming out, we'll have a new game that everyone will enjoy just as much as they did Breath of the Wild.
00:51:20
Speaker
And if you don't enjoy the games, then Andrew's got Mr Tingle on speed dial. If you're a new fan, you won't know what that means, but trust me, by the time he's finished with that phone call, he probably will, so yeah. Listen to our living in the Zelda world to hear more about Tingle.
00:51:35
Speaker
Oh yeah, please do. That was a fantastic episode, but it's also horrifying when you realise that Mr Tingle is a, well it's not an omnipotent being, but it probably could be. Anyone could be with a crowbar and a serious grudge for money. But on that lovely note, Andrew, thank you so much for going through Memory Lane and discussing this beloved franchise.
00:52:01
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure to talk about Zelda again and I'm looking forward to talking some more in the next episode of recording. As we said there, next week we are indeed going to be talking about Breath of the Wild. We're going to be talking about mainly the highs, because let's face it, they're probably not as many lows when it comes to that game, but just wait until next week and we'll see you there.
00:52:22
Speaker
If you would like to listen to more of our episodes, including the amazing What It's Like To Live In The Zelda University episode, catch us on all good podcast apps, as well as our website, polytopatreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. I also want to give a huge shout out to our Pandalo Day patrons, Robotic BattleToaster and Sonya, thank you so so much for supporting the show.
00:52:44
Speaker
We also recommend that you check out the new Let's Play series, Chatsu Plays, which we are uploading some archived footage onto and will hopefully be recording some new content in the coming weeks and months. Definitely go check that out because so far we only have two episodes out so far. That is around our very totally not chaotic episodes where we played Halo 4 and Halo Reach as well, which thank God you missed that Andrew because it was too much betrayal. That's all I'll say.
00:53:13
Speaker
So, if you're interested yet, as Andrew said, go check it out on YouTube under the channel name Chatshoo Police. But until then, before we wrap up, there's one more thing that indeed we are working on, aren't we Andrew? Yeah, we'll have some fun news to announce in the next few weeks. I'm not quite sure how soon we'll be able to announce it, but there will be some new content heading to your earways very soon. We hope you guys will enjoy and we're looking forward to making that announcement very soon.
00:53:40
Speaker
Yeah, the information is very much under lock and key. There are pandas telling us we're not allowed to tell anybody about it, so keep an eye out on Twitter at ChatsanamiPod and yeah, we'll see you there. But until then, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.