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Fossil Falls and the Coso Range with Katie Olsen - Rock Art 128
488 Plays2 months ago
On this episode we interview Katie Olsen who lives in Ridgecrest, California. On the edge of the Coso Range and a stone's throw away from Little Lake and Fossil Falls - prominent rock art locations in the Coso Range. She shares her feelings and background as a woman and female and mother with academic training in art history as she helps us to understand the rock art of the Cosos with a special emphasis on the animal humans that are patterned and solid bodied and expresses an explicit emphasis on the female side of the human experience.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/rockart/128
Contact Dr. Alan Garfinkel
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Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Alan Garfinkel and California Rock Art Foundation
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Hello out there in archaeology podcast land. This is Dr. Alan Garfinkel. I'm the president and founder of the California Rock Art Foundation. And what we do is we identify, evaluate, manage and conserve rock art both in Alta, California and in Baja, California.
00:00:21
Speaker
We conduct field trips, we have trainings, exercise, we do research, and in every way possible we try to preserve, protect, and coordinate treasures of Alta and Baja California rock art, of which there are many, and diverse. We also work closely with Native Americans and partner with them to recognize and protect sacred
Foundation Activities and Collaboration with Native Americans
00:00:42
Speaker
sites.
00:00:42
Speaker
So for more info about the fabulous California Rock Art Foundation, you can go to carockart.org. Also, i'm I'm open to give me a call, 805-312-2261. We would welcome sponsorship or underwriting, ah helping us to defray the costs of our podcasts, and also membership in California Rock Art Foundation, and of course, donations since we are a 501c3 nonprofit scientific and
Episode Introduction: Featuring Katie Olson
00:01:08
Speaker
educational corporation. God bless everyone out there in podcast land.
00:01:16
Speaker
You're listening to The Rock Art Podcast. Join us every week for fascinating tales of rock art, adventure, and archaeology. Find our contact info in the show notes and send us your suggestions.
00:01:33
Speaker
Welcome everybody to The Rock Art Podcast. This is ah episode 128, 128. Can you imagine We're going to be here with Katie Olson, who lives in Ridgecrest and has been working closely with me as a research associate, both with the California Rock Art Foundation and also with one of a a very important monograph been working on for the last four years. Katie, are you there?
Katie Olson's Background and Interest in Indigenous Heritage
00:02:02
Speaker
I'm here.
00:02:03
Speaker
Perfect. So Katie, the way we kick this off usually as I ask the million dollar question, tell me about your background and why you might be interested in in Indigenous heritage, cultural resources and values, and perhaps the study of Native art.
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, of course. So I was introduced formally to art history in high school. It was something that I really enjoyed. So I kept learning, you know, through college and stuff, taking courses. But my villain origin story really begins the first time I went to Castle Falls.
00:02:41
Speaker
It's an alien landscape there, the way that the basalt flows were carved by that ancient river, and I just was amazed and I wanted to know more.
Geological and Cultural Significance of Fossil Falls
00:02:50
Speaker
And so I read as much as I possibly could about it, but I really didn't have a good direction for, you know,
00:02:57
Speaker
what I was supposed to be researching to learn about this, and that led me to the Rock Art Podcast, and which then led me to the California Rock Art Foundation, and it has been a great source for All of these different topics that I've gotten to read about and explore and it's just been an amazing experience. So it's been an interesting adventure and journey since then. So for those that don't know much about Fossil Falls, could you ah paint us a word picture of maybe where it's located and what's there?
00:03:34
Speaker
Sure, it is located probably about 20 minutes outside of Ridgecrest. As you're approaching it from the highway, you'll see this you know really en large red cinder cone that's left over from volcanic activity. And then as you drive up to where the trail starts, you see these basalt flows that just they go on for miles.
00:03:59
Speaker
and you walk up the trail a little bit and once you get there to the left is an old sort of riverbed that is just littered with obsidian and then to your right are the falls and the but salt has been carved in a way to where there's these giant cylinder holes and just all of these different shapes. it's really It's really cool. It's like being on an alien planet and then the the falls lead down into a canyon that's more basalt and it's just I didn't realize that I was living so close to this huge resource of
00:04:45
Speaker
you know, cultural knowledge and resources. It's just it's a really stunning place. And I've been back many, many times. And, you know, each time you go there, you find something new. It's just really beautiful place. So Fossil Falls is just north of Little Lake. It's on the it's on the eastern skirt of the Sierra Nevadas in Inyo County.
00:05:09
Speaker
It's on the very edge of the southwestern Great Basin. and It's an area that's owned and managed by the Bureau of Land Management.
Dr. Garfinkel's Internship Experience at Fossil Falls
00:05:18
Speaker
and It's considered to be a tourist stop that people see. It turns out that many years ago, back about 1977, I was given an opportunity to do an internship with the Bureau of Land Management at Bakersfield when I was a graduate student at UC Davis in Northern California. And so I jumped at the chance and I lived in Bakersfield and for
00:05:50
Speaker
About a month's time, or several months actually, I yeah began to assess inventory and try to understand what was going on at this place called Fossil Falls. So Fossil Falls is the remnant of a waterfall where the ancient Pleistocene Owens River cut a gorge within the basalt flow of the COSO range. and What Katie was alluding to was the shoots
00:06:26
Speaker
and channeling of the fast-moving waters of the Owens River as they cut through the basalt and in essence developed this Swiss cheese effect of holes and shoots and particular remarkable sculptural elements right there within the channel. Now, besides the geological configuration of that remarkable landscape,
00:06:56
Speaker
This was an amazing magnet for prehistoric Aboriginal activity for a variety of reasons. One is because, of course, during the Pleistocene, there was a river there, and not far away was Little Lake, which is just to just below it.
00:07:18
Speaker
And so it was a place of tremendous cultural activity for about the last, I would say, 10,000 years. Just north of Fossil Falls is a Playa.
00:07:33
Speaker
which existed during the ah what they called the Western Pluvial Lakes tradition for about 8,000 to 12,000 years ago. It probably had a marsh-like effect and was a modest little lake. And so there was an associated cultural activity there. Besides that, at Fossil Falls itself,
00:07:57
Speaker
There are milling slicks and other activities showing that this was a ah village site that occupation took place. And as one walks around the channels, the ancient Pleistocene River Channel, it's one continuous archaeological site for this whole area that probably takes in, I don't know, the better part of a square mile, I would say,
00:08:23
Speaker
and there's open-air campsites and milling and rock shelters and every other possible avenue of archaeological sites. Sort of adding to the drama, we're literally only a few miles away from the remarkable obsidian quarries that exist on the base of China Lake with an endless array, an endless abundance of COSO volcanic glass. So how's that for a story, Katie? It was much more eloquent than I thought it.
00:09:01
Speaker
but ah Well, i've I've had a long time to think about this. I just looked back on my 1976 monograph they published, which became my master's thesis. And it was rather simple and rather If you could use the word primitive at the time, I was you know kind of a bit of a baby archaeologist by comparison, and I think I was probably overwhelmed by the array of of materials they were asking me to try to get a handle on and do something about
00:09:38
Speaker
They were doing so doing something called a cultural resource management plan, and they wanted me to do one for this area. And they also wanted me to place this area, of Fossil Falls, on the National Register of Historic Places. This was all part of my assignment. So quite a daunting task for a single individual. Would you agree?
Challenges in Documenting Rock Art at Fossil Falls
00:10:02
Speaker
Yes, there's so much there.
00:10:04
Speaker
So what's down in the canyon? I have rarely, if ever, even been down inside at the base of that falls. Have you? I have. So me and my friend walked along the side of the waterfall and found a place where we could do a couple of controlled falls into the bottom of the canyon.
00:10:29
Speaker
me and I walked all the way probably a mile up one side and then a mile down and I could not find wow anything but that was my very first place there you know and I was relatively new to what I was looking for and I just didn't know where to look.
00:10:49
Speaker
but there have been other times where I have climbed down into the falls itself and there is a particular you know circular chute that goes all the way up and when you climb inside of it, the walls of it have different images on it. There's a bighorn sheep, there's a snake, there's a couple other things that don't come to mind immediately, but that was the first time that I had found a petroglyph in fossil falls specifically, but it was it's nothing compared to what's down the way in Little Lake. So what you found when you were looking there has been researched by others or alluded to in ah in a PhD dissertation. That's a chute, a swirling hole that runs from both, you know, it's it's exposed at the bottom and exposed at the top.
00:11:42
Speaker
and has what's called archaeo-acoustic properties. So if you're inside that chute, you can sort of get inside with your whole body and it kind of echoes, it's eco-phonic. And so that's that's rather interesting and I've learned that over the years from others going
Interpreting Rock Art Through Art History
00:12:00
Speaker
there. I spent about a month wandering around in there back in the 1970s before I wrote that plan.
00:12:10
Speaker
And I was surprised at how few rock art images I was really able to discern or find or discover in that area. But yet again, the more that I've gone back and the more that people tell me about, I begin to discover some other things.
00:12:33
Speaker
One of the other elements that I discovered thanks to, I don't know how this happened, but I was looking around right there within the falls itself, right there at the center lip where it daylights to the you know the ground itself, and there right below in ah in one of the flutes, totally protected, is a perfect atlatl symbol, one of the circular orbs that are bisected by a line. It's rather large and rather pristine and very well preserved. and Then of course, off to the right, we see, I believe it's, I think it's four different rather simple bighorn sheep that exist within one of those shoots.
00:13:24
Speaker
and we've got that symbol as well. Have you seen the the rather elaborate panel that exists if you cut across and look in the river channel and go cross country from the falls sort of back into that maze area up there on the flats or no? I haven't.
00:13:48
Speaker
So there's a there's an elaborate, ah one of the only elaborate images that I've seen there. And I think we call it the Five Bighorn Rock Shelter because it's right there in the channel. And there on this pyramidal shaped boulder is ah something that Campbell Grant called a medicine bag.
00:14:13
Speaker
And then out of the side of the medicine bag, looks like there's an otlor spear perking out. And then there's several bighorn sheep ascending, looking like it's they're ascending to the sky. And in the back, you can see the Sierra Nevadas, the majestic Sierra Nevadas in the back. And then a couple more.
00:14:35
Speaker
of the bighorn sheep below. It's rather impressive, and and it's surprisingly ornate, and that's the most elaborate glyph that I've seen in that entire area. I guess let's ah let's continue this discussion on the flip-flop. Welcome back, Yang. This is your host, Dr. Alan Garfinkel, and we're here with Katie Olson,
00:15:03
Speaker
a rock art enthusiast background in art history. And we're going to talk about her journey was with the study of rock art and California Rock Art Foundation and the work we're doing together. So Katie, how does art history interfinger with your interest in Native American heritage and rock art etc What does that provide for you in terms of perspective or perhaps context? I believe that art is sort of, you know, this truly universal experience. There are infinite expressions and mediums, but we see these repeating images, you know, across the globe, one of the most prolific being the human form. And I just find it fascinating how throughout
00:15:57
Speaker
art history, we can find context clues about what these people, these ancient people were trying to convey in this and these rock art.
00:16:12
Speaker
Images, yeah. can you Can you give me an example maybe of one of those images that you feel sort of is transcultural and goes across time or gives you some sort of an insight into the significance meaning or symbolism of some sort of an image?
00:16:28
Speaker
Yes. So the earliest rock art in Europe is an engraving of a vulva. It's 37,000 years old. And the vulva, the female genitals, or the female in general, it seems to be something that is repeated everywhere. And i just I just find it fascinating that even though you know these cultures are separated by continents and time that You know, we keep bringing up these same subjects about the human form and about the female form, too.
Shifts in Rock Art Interpretation: Masculine vs. Feminine Symbols
00:17:04
Speaker
So why was the female form such a dominant expression? Why was it such a a menomonic, a sort of memory device? Or what what are they trying to communicate by sort of fashioning some images of the female form or female genitals? Does it have to do with fertility? Does it have to do with longevity or or or revitalization or life life and energy? what What do you think it has to do with? ah Just intuition, just kind of asking you out of your gut what you think that was trying to tell us.
00:17:40
Speaker
i think they were trying to convey the regenerative capabilities of women. and Their ability to give birth and bring new life into the world was paramount to their survival. You know you you need children to help you to help take care of you when you're older or to help you hunt and take care of your family. and There seems to be a cosmology focused on that cycle that begins and is centered around women's capability to make new life. And I think you're bang on with that. I think that you see that extensively in the rock art that's in Eastern California. And our work has been associated with kind of beginning to deal with that particular issue, hasn't it? Yeah. You know, we're
00:18:32
Speaker
We're sort of re-evaluating the sexual classifications of the posto-anthromorphs, you know, being able to look at them in a new sort of, you know, way. With with new eyes. yeah Yeah, it's a new chapter for rock art theory.
00:18:50
Speaker
Why do you think that perhaps some of our former colleagues and researchers, when they're examining COSO rock art beginning in 1968, I would say, or even earlier, may not have have seen or recognized the significance of the um feminine form amongst these animals animal human figures?
00:19:11
Speaker
I think it had a lot to do with the fact that these archaeologists were predominantly male. And so they don't have as intimate of a view on things like childbirth or menstruation, all of these different parts of being a woman. I feel like they just didn't have the insight into that to recognize what they were seeing as female oriented.
00:19:41
Speaker
Do you think that a female perspective, a womanly perspective, is much more sensitive to these attributes and they become much more visual and significant and are easily attributed to perhaps the same mindset that was being used to fashion these images? Would it matter? I think it absolutely does.
00:20:04
Speaker
Tell me a bit about that. Why is that? A lot of these no images that have been looked over in past research are are things that I have drawn from my experience as a woman. For example, there's you know quite a few anthropomorphs that have these three lines of where the genitals would be. It's obvious to you what those mean, correct?
00:20:32
Speaker
Yes. so What do you think those imply? Because when I've looked in the literature, I just don't see the the ah denotation, the connotation, the identification of that kind of symbology as an association of the feminine form. I have two children. The way that they determine sex in an ultrasound for a girl is they look for these three lines.
00:21:00
Speaker
And those three lines right next to each other is how they determine, you know, if it's a girl, if it's a boy, it's one line and it's got two shorter lines on either side of it. I think this is a visual shorthand for the female genitals.
00:21:22
Speaker
in a lot of cases, but it's just the lines. The negative space is being utilized to you know show that there's something there. What's amazing is using exactly the same vernacular, the same linguistic clues, the the the words that i've I've used in my research when I'm talking about these attributes on rock art, visual shorthand, visual shorthand.
00:21:51
Speaker
and That is certainly what others have found who are really insiders who have delved into the mysteries of indigenous cosmology of Native American thought and religious precepts and the cognitive map of the universe, the worldview of Native people. That is not such an easy thing to pierce. Do you but do you agree? Yeah, I mean, past research has you know just taken such a different stance.
00:22:22
Speaker
around these images, but I've just been very fortunate to be a part of that conversation with you, and the connotations for this is just so far spread, and we're just barely touching the surface of it. It's fascinating. So what what the ah previous literature told us was that these both decorated and solid-bodied animal human figures were exclusively male, were men and not women. And it became clear to me and to a woman who completed her dissertation on this subject within the Kosos that that appeared to be incorrect, that as we look closer and closer at these images,
00:23:13
Speaker
and examine them in in fine, fine detail with a much larger inventory that something different was going on. I think what really was revolutionary was when Caroline Matic published her book on Koso pattern-bodied anthropomorphs and sketched 450 individual sketches of these figures all throughout the Kosos.
00:23:43
Speaker
And she was a little tongue-in-cheek, and she wasn't explicit. She was rather tongue-in-cheek and rather, how would you put this, implying, she said, well, mye my study is on the the feminine basis for these COSO pattern-bodied anthropomorphs, which was in some ways shocking, isn't it?
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, you know, she she kind of opened up the space for us to re-explore, you know, these themes in the Coso rock art, retaining the women. And there's just so much there that I see now and think, you know, how did somebody look at this and not see, you know, someone giving birth or see the feminine behind the these different pieces of art?
00:24:34
Speaker
What do you see as the strongest trend or the strongest visual clue that these are feminine? Outside of, I mean, first and foremost is just the genitals, the female genitals, the explicit female genitals. But outside of that, there's these mid-birth postures where, you know, between the legs of the anthropomorph is, you know, something that looks like after birth. And then
Cultural Significance of Women's Life Stages in Rock Art
00:25:00
Speaker
up to one side of them will be a smaller figure of a baby and
00:25:08
Speaker
that will have an umbilical cord trailing off of it. And there's an example in Sheep Canyon of this mid-earth posture with a antler work that has a little tiny big horned sheep between the legs.
00:25:23
Speaker
This is sort of a a little mini picture of sort of the genealogy of the people, right? the The mother and the child, correct? So they're showing the comparison between the human side and the animal side. And I've i've seen that replicated in quite a number of places in the Kosos. What about those hair whirls and the the menstruation that's shown?
00:25:49
Speaker
so The images that I've been studying are in the curlinematic volume, and a lot of times, you will see these antler morphs that have, you know, this, that's just a blood tether or something like that. Yeah. It's a tendril that is a meandering ah ah meandering thread. How's that?
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it's not like a straight line usually. No. Sometimes there's a puddle. Yeah, sometimes there's a puddle at the end of them. Again, it's meandering sort of line. And in those images, a lot of the times the anthropomorphs have these hair borals, these sort of circular figures on either side of their your head, which is heavily associated with, is it the hookie out?
00:26:43
Speaker
it's the it's a coming ah It's a coming of age attribute. The hair amongst the Hopi and the Pueblo are depicted that way because it's called the squash blossom or the butterfly hairdo. It has to do with the symbol of transformation, transmogrification, coming of age. It's the time when women are finally amenable to reproduction. It's an opening up of sort of the life form. It's a benchmark in their lives where they become women in transforming their lives and wearing this hairdo. It's a double bun on the right and left side. and One of the things I learned, which ah shocked me, I didn't know that, was that one of the things they're trying to show is what's called a quinsunk.
00:27:33
Speaker
That's a a five in one kind of a cross. The face is the center and the four modules are the four other sides of the cross. It's like a a human encircled cross, which has the meaning of resurrection and transformation. It has the meaning of ah you know a connection with the tether of the divine, the creator in the center of that cross.
00:28:00
Speaker
does it does it does that um Does that make any sense to you? Absolutely, yeah. and That's the Quinsuck, is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, Quinsuck, yes. The Quinsuck, it's one of those images that you also see repeated you know over and over again in different cultures in different places. you know There seems to be a lot of widespread reading associated with that image.
00:28:23
Speaker
and that symbol, of course. Let's take a break here, see you on the flip-flop gang, and we'll conclude with the third segment. Welcome back to the final segment in our three-part journey with Katie Olsen. Learning about the inter-pagination, the inter-fingering of art history,
00:28:44
Speaker
the feminine elements and that theme that seems to be intertwined in ah Coso Rockart, the early archaic Coso Rockart. Katie, I know this is this is pushing the envelope a little bit, but it it seems to me that these figures are perhaps less shamanistic and more perhaps super mundane beings, ah goddesses of sort of ah protection and survival and love and courage and and and all of that and much more.
Symbolism of Snakes in Rock Art and Indigenous Belief
00:29:22
Speaker
Do you get that flavor or is this a misreading of the of the rock art record?
00:29:27
Speaker
No, I definitely agree. and These images appear to be like a visual prayer, an expression of the you know reverence and importance of the you know female aspect of first the life cycle and their cosmology. And why would they chose a feminine being to do that? Well... Because they're a mother. Yes, because they're a mother. Sorry about that. They're a mother. Because sometimes it's easier to go to mom than to dad, right?
00:29:57
Speaker
Right. And, you know, just in the regenerative capabilities and how that ties to their cosmology and the animal master that, you know, brings forth the animals from the essential animal underworld and starts life anew. Just the same as how, you know, a woman brings new life into the world.
00:30:25
Speaker
i've I've tried to talk a little bit about a creation story amongst the ouichol and the Aztecs and the and some you know somewhat of the Hopi. And it seems like these images are intertwined with snakes and other things and also with celestial beings and the sun and the moon and the sky and the heavens. What's that all about? Oh man, there's a lot there.
00:30:54
Speaker
yeah You know, not every, you know, lunar deity that you come across is female but, you know, females are highly associated with lunar deities, you know, especially considering about their menstrual cycle, you know, it's the but same as the the cycles of the moon. And you see a lot of representation of that in these anthropomorphs.
00:31:18
Speaker
these bodies that are filled with these dots and as you count up the dots you realize that it's a essentially it's a ah menstrual calendar and you know the fact that they put so much effort into making this art and so many of these pieces of art that express that sort of lunar calendar, it to me, it seems like they you know had a very deep connection with this cycle of you know a woman's life and its association to birth, death, and all of that.
00:31:59
Speaker
and the um the ah of the ability to reproduce. One of the things I had not done before, I was like the first to sort of, it it it gives me the tingles, the Koso glow to think but think back to this. The thing that was the key in Malak that allowed me to begin to understand Koso rock art was my four-year odyssey in doing the book on the handbook of the Kawaiasu, because they they they forced me to read the the sacred narratives, the mythology. And as I read again and again and again about the animal master, animal mistress, I began to understand some analogies, some connectivities between what the Koso ancestral imagery could mean. One of the things that was that connection was they kept talking about quail.
00:32:55
Speaker
quail and quail and quail, that this particular deity, the supramundane being wore a quail shawl or a quail skirt. And in the analogous, they would open up a bag, and he was the father or the mother of an infinite amount of quail.
00:33:19
Speaker
And I kept going, why quail, why quail, why quail? Well, what it turns out was sort of quail is sort of a, it's a metaphor, isn't it, for tremendous reproductive fertility and the number of babies that they produce is unbelievable. Plus these quail themselves are associated with areas that are full of life, that are wet and moist, et cetera.
00:33:47
Speaker
And so there's something going on there as well that that seemed to bring it about to show me that there's something here that needs to have a connection.
Cosmological Symbols and Creation Narratives in Rock Art
00:34:00
Speaker
Plus, in terms of the lunar element on that same rock,
00:34:05
Speaker
The famous rock that I've talked about in several articles that is a manifestation of this broad and robust sacred narrative and oral history on Yahuera and the ah supernatural gamekeeper is a lunar count. It's a lunar count of the 25 to 28 days of the month that that the moon is available. and i've taught and And I didn't know anything about this until I talked to Ed Krupp, who told me, well, that's a lunar count, Alan. That's what's going on there. And that's a representation of the moon. And then when I went in to look at the um language of the Kauai'isu, I found out that they have words in their native language for all the different kind of parts
00:34:58
Speaker
of the Moon, from the beginning Moon to the waning Moon to the middle Moon to the end Moon. And so I said, wow, the Moon obviously was a central and important part of their cosmology, as well as the Sun. So the Sun itself was important because of the winter solstice and the summer solstice, and I only learned about that Because as I began to understand more and more and more, i began I experienced a rock art site there in the far southern Sierras that served as a as a calendar and had a solsticial alignment. So when you're there during the winter solstice sunrise, you get to see the sun sit
00:35:47
Speaker
right at the peak of the highest peak in the far southern Sierras. And it sits there and does not move for about 30 seconds. And I also began to understand how the Hopi and other of these indigenous cultures were sun and sky watchers because they knew that when that sun came to that winter solstice sunrise, it would stay in the heavens for several days and then continue its journey back the other way. But it was a period of time when it was at standstill, and that was the time when they had their winter solstice or sun
00:36:33
Speaker
ceremony, or also called the fire ceremony, where it's very important to re-inaugurate the cycle and bring back the sun. Does that make any sense, Katie? Yeah, so that you know that sounds really similar to a lot of things that i I've read about the Mesoamerican you know rebirth of the sun, sort of reigniting the sun in their cosmology and their stories.
00:37:02
Speaker
Exactly. So although this may seem a bit fanciful, there seems to be a very remote and ancient connection between what could be called the early Yuto Aztec in the Archaic, Yuto Aztec in expression of, let's say, a creation narrative that appears to be replicated amongst the Huichol and the high cultures of the Nahua, and is shown on the imagery in the Kosos. And that is shocking, and it's we're talking about something that's, you know, a thousand miles away, or or even further.
00:37:44
Speaker
and It's rather rather controversial, but yet again, it it seems rather transparent that there was an analog, some sort of a parallel belief about this re-inauguration of the sun and the importance of the sun cycle and the seasonality and the circuitous nature of the seasons. Does that make any sense?
00:38:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. What also comes to mind is the, you know, how many images in the kosos have, you know, either snake patterns or they're holding snakes and then they'll have a ceremonial wand in the other hand. And just how, could you talk a little bit about how the snakes sort of tie into that Mesoamerican cosmology? Because I remember speaking and there's just some really amazing things there.
00:38:40
Speaker
Well, it's endless. We wrote a 70,000-word book about the snake and its significance from its inception all the way to the high cultures of Mexico. So there seems to be you know this this ah obsession with the snake, which surprised the heck out of me. I found it very difficult to understand why would a snake, which is considered in Christian theology, the absolute negative and the absolute you know devilish element, how could that have to do with
00:39:15
Speaker
a positive realm of life and regeneration and all the other elements that would seem to be packaged by these native people. But as I began to try to you know deconstruct it and understand it, it became rather transparent, what we're looking at. you know in the As the stake wanders around the the surface of the ground, it also goes in the ground, so it's a liminal creature. It loses its skin, it goes through a you know a defoliation and so it it it appears to be almost like a revitalistic or we regenerative element.
00:39:56
Speaker
It's also, snakes come out when it rains. So they're bringers of rain, and if they bringers of rain, and they also have this circuitous movement, it looks like they're much about water. And so when the native people looked at the sky, they saw the sky snake and the Virga rain, and so they saw the snake as a bringer of rain. And rain, of course, in the desert, was an absolute critical regenerative factor. Does that make sense?
00:40:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I find it fascinating that so many of these female figures are are pictured with snakes. Yeah, and they're holding snakes in both hands, or they're associated with a snake symbology. And one of the things we were able to do, which also shocked me, and I was learned this from one of my colleagues, I didn't get this, that the words they have for certain baskets mean
00:40:53
Speaker
rattlesnake and gopher snake. And that's what those symbols are. Those representational designs are so are significant and they have meaning to the native people in their own language. And so the rattlesnake and the rattlesnake baskets and the rattlesnake symbolism meant much, much more to them in a positive mode, in a regenerative mode, in an inspirational or or how would you put it almost ah you know a resurrection or ah a rebirth mode, a transformational mode,
00:41:32
Speaker
than what we might think of.
Integrating Mesoamerican Elements in Rock Art
00:41:34
Speaker
So it had a ah very strong positive, but also the negative vote because it's a you know it's ah it's a killer. it's a It's an animal that can kill you if it bites you and and can kill you dead. And this binary opposition between life and death is something that's also very characteristic of the U.S. Tekken realm of thought.
00:41:56
Speaker
I'm sure you're aware of that or see that in your art history kinds of understanding. Is that the case? Yeah, absolutely. What comes to mind is i that specific and you've you've told me the name of this statue probably 20 times and I still can't remember it.
00:42:13
Speaker
It's the Coat Liquei statue. I like how you know what I'm talking about because I've asked so many times. Well, it's the goddess of the moon. and you know there're They were digging the subway in downtown Mexico, and they found this 25-ton statue.
00:42:33
Speaker
25 tons, right? just and it's It's a woman. and um It has breasts. It's also got a cord around its waist. It's pregnant and it's birthing a snake and it's built with snakes and the The funny thing is is that there's an analog in the COSOs. One of our decorated animal humans has a snake coming out of its genitals, and it could be either a cyclically yeah ah snake or also a you know some of the that connecting tether as you birth a baby, right?
00:43:11
Speaker
right so That's my favorite example out of all of this. i love i you know One day I'll remember the name of the statue, but it's my favorite. Well, I found that dealing with the um cosmological realm and understanding the Mexican culture and opening up my mind to the all this literature on Mesoamerica was very, very daunting.
Reflections on New Perspectives in Rock Art Interpretation
00:43:37
Speaker
it's It's enormous and to ah even try to begin to understand the ah voluminous nature of their cosmology and the the you know the many, many years and many individuals that have attempted to do so is is rather impressive. Would you agree? Yes.
00:43:59
Speaker
So anyways, is there anything you anything you want to tell people as an exit or as a commemorative sign to your experiences with so rock art and art history as a you know as ah as sort of a communique to the listenership? That's a good one.
00:44:18
Speaker
I think when it comes to analyzing these images, what we tend to do is first go to the most obvious. And I would just encourage people to you know take another look, maybe take a step back, try to think about things in a different perspective, and you'll be surprised that you know might find something new. Fantastic.
00:44:44
Speaker
Thank you, gang, for listening and I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Rock Art Podcast.
00:44:57
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Rock Art Podcast with Dr. Alan Garfinkel and Chris Webster. Find show notes and contact information at www.arcpodnet dot.com forward slash rock art. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing this podcast with your family and friends.
00:45:29
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.