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Monoliths! With Dr. Charlotte Coull - Aliens 73
457 Plays24 days ago
The episode features a lively and critical dialogue between Fredrik and Dr. Charlotte Coull, a public historian specializing in the cultural significance of stone. They explore the problematic narratives surrounding megaliths and ancient sites as portrayed in the popular television show Ancient Aliens. A key focus of their discussion is the site of Avebury, where Dr. Coull emphasizes the emotional and historical connections people have with stone structures, urging listeners to recognize the deep cultural roots these sites have in human history rather than relegating them to mere alien constructs.
The conversation also touches upon the stone spheres of Costa Rica and their misrepresentation in the media, arguing that erosion and natural processes can explain their shape, rather than attributing them to alien technology.
Fredrik and Dr. Coull's engaging exchange serves as a reminder of the importance of critical thinking in the face of alternative histories that often prioritize spectacle over fact. They encourage listeners to appreciate the complexities of ancient craftsmanship and the human stories woven into the fabric of these historical sites, advocating for a respectful and informed exploration of our past. The episode is a compelling call to action for those interested in archaeology and history to challenge sensationalist narratives and embrace a more nuanced understanding of the ancient world.
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The intro music is Lily of the woods by Sandra Marteleur, and the outro is named “Folie hatt” by Trallskruv.
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Transcript
Introduction and Alternative Narratives
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to Digging up Ancient Aliens. This is the podcast where we examine alternative history and ancient alien narratives in popular media. Do these ideas hold water to an archaeologist or are there better explanations out there?
Fredrik's Commentary and Archaeology Event
00:00:35
Speaker
We are now on episode 73 and I am Fredrik, your guide into the world of pseudo-archaeology. This time I'm joined by a guest or I'm actually visiting a guest and we will discuss Stones, Megalith and well, racist dog whistles that Ancient Aliens brings up in the episode titled Monolith. I want to thank everyone who support the show, like Tim, you're really helping out producing all of this content and I'm
00:01:05
Speaker
humbled and grateful for all of your support. And if you want to help out, I will tell you exactly how to do that and even get some bonus stuff at the end of the episode. I also want to bring up that over the weekend we had this large online event regarding archeology And I think it was a huge success. And if you want to check out what was going on there, you can go to the website real-archeology.com and catch up on all the amazing content that was released during the weekend. There's also an interview I did with Flint Dibble on his channel that you definitely should go and check out. But yeah, you can go and peruse all of that content after you have listened to this episode.
Introducing Dr. Charlotte Cole
00:01:53
Speaker
Now, I think we have finished up our preparation, so let's dig into the episode.
00:02:05
Speaker
So I want to welcome, or maybe it's Dr. Charlotte Cole who welcomed me into her home, but I want to welcome Charlotte to the podcast. Hello, and thank you for having me on the podcast and um I'm sure, yes, welcome to my house as well. So Charlotte, could you maybe tell the audience who you are and maybe a bit about your credentials?
Charlotte's Focus on 19th Century Archaeology
00:02:28
Speaker
Okay, um so I finished my PhD from the University of Manchester about three years ago, give or take, and I'm a historian. I'm straight historian through and through, that's undergrad, MA, PhD. During my PhD, well, during my MA, I started to get quite interested in the history of archaeology. And specifically during my PhD, I started to focus on how people or how archaeologists in the 19th century interacted with stone. I looked specifically at archaeology, ah colonial archaeology, British archaeology in India and Egypt throughout the 19th century and I was very interested in the concept of
00:03:09
Speaker
Stone's agency because I'm very interested in materiality and how humans interact with material objects, how we interact with the properties of materials and specifically stone. Since then, so yeah, for the past three years I've been a public historian. um I lead guided walking tours of the wonderful city of Manchester, UK when it's not raining and often when it is raining too.
00:03:35
Speaker
um and we focus on the materiality of the city. I also have a YouTube channel which kind of tries to tie history to i guess current events today and do so in an amusing and insightful way.
First Experience with Ancient Aliens
00:03:50
Speaker
So that's me.
00:03:51
Speaker
So I've been doing this ancient alien stuff for nearly 70 plus episodes. What's your previous and history with shows like Ancient Aliens or Ancient Apocalypse or Ancient Whatever that's on on History Channel at 2am?
00:04:08
Speaker
to I have never watched Ancient Aliens at 2am. I feel like i that's probably a good thing, I'm assuming. I will honestly confess that Ancient Aliens, it's been sort of, I've known about it, obviously. I know it's out there. I've seen the memes. um I'm aware of that dude with the crazy hair. I can't remember his name. george socuas That's him. um But I'd never actually watch an episode, a whole episode completely from start to finish until I was prepping for recording this. So it was an interesting experience.
Conspiracy Theories and Megalithomania
00:04:44
Speaker
I will say that. That's the cap if he sets himself on fire. i but So this was my first the first episode I'd watch from start to finish.
00:04:54
Speaker
and Honestly, I found it at once incredibly frustrating and fascinating and I had to move my phone out of my reach so I didn't pick it up and throw it at the TV. um I got very frustrated. What I think is really interesting, though, is how you can sort of track These sort of conspiracy theories and how they all started in the 19th century or give or take ah That's that's what I focus on. That's my vibe I'm a 19th century gal and you can see the seeds So I guess it was great watching it because it's kind of like ah This is where all these this is where all these things that I've looked at the beginning of this is why they've ended up And I don't like why they've ended up
00:05:38
Speaker
No, they seem to enjoy it. But yeah, it's a bit problematic. Now, you told me before that you have been on a conference called Megalithomania. Exactly. How do you feel that that crowd compared to the but little ancient alien exposure you got here?
00:05:56
Speaker
Of course. you know i keep How could I forget about that conference? Yeah, that that was that was a fun experience. I mean, it it was basically the same stuff. I will say, though, that the conference, um some of the talks were more overtly racist than I think would ancient aliens might get away with, although to be fair, I haven't ah haven't seen any other ancient aliens. Maybe there is more overt racism.
New Age Media Portrayal
00:06:22
Speaker
It's all it's all the pretty it's the pretty standard stuff, isn't it? The sort of the the what's it the ancient astronaut theory, the um angels, lots of angels at the conference. In fact, one woman gave an entire talk about angels. ah That that was um ah was something else. I feel like actually,
00:06:41
Speaker
I feel like the Ancient Aliens show is not quite as New Age hippie. It doesn't quite spread the love and light. It comes and goes. um that sensor yeah There's definitely a New Age influence in there okay in the sphere. But what we see on television we have to remember is filled in through a network publisher and it needs to go on a major network so of course they won't put the the most overtly racist stuff. They will try to filter that out because the author has some incredible nasty things in the past, but those stuff is usually, you know, toned down, it's more family friendly, it's more aiming to be scientific in a sense, and therefore you don't really to get the new age influence as clear as you get in their books them and when they write and when you hear them talk in other places, for example.
Review of Ancient Aliens Episode
00:07:36
Speaker
Why we're talking about this conference is because it kind of ties into the episode I had you watch, and I'm sorry for that, but what we watched was an episode called The Megalith, if I remember correctly there, and it's from season five, episode six, if I'm not mistaken, but they talk about stone.
00:07:59
Speaker
and the alien or magic properties of stone and it kind of ties into what you're doing and how do you reflect on what you're what they were saying in the episode because you have a not different but novel approach on how we can look upon stone as a material in our culture so to say yeah novel approaches certainly what I was accused of during my viber by two senior professors but and I fought with them and I won so um yeah I think
00:08:39
Speaker
what i What I found incredibly frustrating and that they was that they came in the episode tantalizingly close to actually almost my perspective, but they just missed.
00:08:54
Speaker
they they were almost there, they almost reached the lofty heights of whatever I wrote in my thesis three years ago, um but then they just missed it.
Stone Agency and Cultural Relevance
00:09:03
Speaker
So to to kind of explain, I guess, a little bit where I'm coming from with my theories surrounding materiality in stone is one of the things I'm really interested in is this idea that materials can have agency. Now, I have to be careful when I say that because I can be, I have been accused of animism, and that's totally not my vibe. That's not what I'm getting at. I don't think that there are spirits in objects. I don't think that objects can obviously get up and move on their own, like, obviously.
00:09:39
Speaker
um But what I mean when I say agency is that an object can act on us, but only sort of if we almost allow it to, in conjunction or sort of in relation to our human ideas about that object.
00:09:59
Speaker
And that's something, um so there's an anthropologist dude called Alfred Gell who wrote about primary agency and secondary agency. Primary agency is what humans and animals can exhibit. You act of your own accord. you know ah My cat just walked into the room and wandered around. He is a primary agent. He does what he wants.
00:10:21
Speaker
secondary agency is an object that cannot act of its own accord but instead it it has a kind of an agency in relation to the primary of someone with or something with primary agency so a piece of stone that's sitting on your desk.
00:10:38
Speaker
is not a primary agent. It's not going to get up and wander off. You as a human, though, if you see that piece of stone, if you feel like an emotional connection to it, you are giving that stone agency, you are giving it the ability to act on you. I have stuff in my house that I have an emotional attachment to, and I know why that is. It's because I like the texture, I like the shape, I like the history.
00:11:03
Speaker
those objects don't have primary agency, they don't have a spirit within them. But I am, as a human with my slow background, um with my own kind of sets of emotions and experiences, I am sort of imbuing them with agency.
00:11:19
Speaker
and Now, all this to say, to circle back round to ancient aliens, is they discuss the idea that stone has particular properties that make it appealing to humans.
Portland Stone in Architecture
00:11:33
Speaker
That's true. That is absolutely true, because we've chosen to use stone as a building material. we you know It's convenient, and it's durable, and it has all these practical properties. But we have chosen to like have this emotional connection with it.
00:11:48
Speaker
So that that is a kind of a thing that they they are acknowledging. What they then don't do is realise that they are having this emotional reaction. They are seeing Stone almost as a primary agent. I mean, ah probably at some point, I'm sure one of them would say that Stone could just get up and walk around.
00:12:07
Speaker
Maybe. um So they come close to realizing that they are co-shaping. That's the word where you kind of create an object's agency. They come close to that when they say that they know that stone has properties. But then they just, it just explodes into into chaos. And that I found super interesting. So close, but yet so far.
00:12:35
Speaker
Do you have an ah example of building or building material where we see this kind of, and what did you call it? Co-shaping, primary, secondary, aider. Yes. um In fact, in our very in my very own Manchester, my very own city, we have ah we have a building in Manchester, Central Library. It's from the 1930s, 1920s. It's a lovely kind of neoclassical building.
00:13:01
Speaker
It's made from Portland stone. Portland stone is a beautiful white stone. um It comes from the south of England. It comes from an island called Portland, which is near, I want to say Dorset. My geography is dreadful. Portland stone is is a lovely, beautiful stone, and it's been used um in some of our major buildings in the UK and now around the world. A lot of the government buildings in London are built from Portland stone. So Whitehall, the Foreign Office buildings, they're all Portland stone.
00:13:31
Speaker
um There's a cat again, a primary agent um doing what he does. Portland stone, it has these inherent material properties. It's a strong building stone. It's got a lovely kind of white color to it. It's pretty pollution resistant as well.
00:13:47
Speaker
This is kind of like, it a hum as humans, we kind of that's what first sort of attaches us to it. thus's we We look at it and we think, oh yeah, that's good. We can use this. So then we start using it in our buildings. It starts to be used for buildings that are particularly culturally relevant. So it becomes associated with that kind of cultural relevance.
00:14:08
Speaker
it sort of, it picks up this culture to it. You start using a stone for political buildings or buildings where there's power, it becomes associated with power. So London used Portland stone a lot more and earlier than Manchester did, when Manchester decided to kind of step up its game, so to speak, as a kind of a powerful, influential city. It looked at what London had done and it said, we can use Portland stone for our important buildings. We will take some of this emotional kind of attachment that people have to Portland stone and we can transfer it over to Manchester. We can make Manchester look powerful by imitating London.
00:14:49
Speaker
So what we have then is Portland stone has been used for all these culturally relevant buildings. It then gets designated. I can't remember when. I want to say that quite recently, but I'm not even going to try and guess the date.
00:15:04
Speaker
historian, but with no memory for dates. It was designated a heritage stone yeah by the International Union of Geological Sciences, do yeah geological um sciences and it sort of self-reinforces, it's this self-reinforcing narrative that this stone is good and important and that if you build something from the stone,
00:15:25
Speaker
it will sort of ah have a prestige to it, if that if that makes sense. And that's one of my favorite examples, partly because it's right here in Manchester. Yeah. And that's interesting from several aspects because talking about how we give stone a meaning. And it's something we actually see in the ancient alien narrative and start to look at it. If we would look at several more episodes, which one of us at least Done the mistake of doing, we see a couple of stones appearing again and again, all with magical properties. We have granite, we have quartz, it's crystals, and it's andesite, all these dense, heavy stones that they associate with aliens. Do you see this same kind of connection there?
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah. and Oh, yes, entirely. And actually, that's something I would love to chat to you more about, especially quartz in particular. um did There's something about it that humans have loved. Maybe it's the way that it catches the light or something like that. But then it just, it it spirals, it snowballs throughout history. It becomes, ooh, were the crystal skulls made of quartz? Are there crystal?
00:16:39
Speaker
Thank you. I knew that. um So it becomes a self-reinforcing thing.
Symbolism and Construction of Stone
00:16:45
Speaker
It's exactly the same thing. And what were the other ones you mentioned, ah the very dense ones? So we have granite and andesite. That one. So andesite you find in South America. But ancient Indian have, they usually claim everything is granite.
00:17:00
Speaker
But and the other site is what we find in Puma Punco and sites throughout South America. It's a very dense, heavy stone. In some sense, it's similar hardness as granite. And again, it's a very durable and easy stone to work with in that sense.
00:17:21
Speaker
Something you have to remember when working with stone is that harness of the stone actually makes it easier to shape, in a sense. It sounds illogical, but when we look at experiments, especially in experimental archaeology that's been done both in Egypt and in South America, they both come to the conclusion that when you work stone, especially with stone tools, so if you use flint, jade, or volcanic rock,
00:17:48
Speaker
Once it's very black, and they made surgery to love it. Obsidian? Obsidian. Those tools work better the whole of the stone is when you want to shape it. okay Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. And and of course, obviously, like... me
00:18:11
Speaker
That's also interesting because the hardness and the the durability also presumably make it last longer as well, which is, I think, a property that humans really love about stone. Stuff that lasts for ages is something that really appeals to us as humans. Yeah, let's see, it shows in our type of buildings, we see important buildings always being made in stone and ancient Egypt is a brilliant example of that. For example, the royal palaces, we would you know picture them building white marble or something like that. No, they build up the mud bricks because the royal palace wasn't as important as the royal tomb
00:18:49
Speaker
or the temples that need to be for ages, the, you know, radiant common gods, but when they pass into the world of the gods, it's when it's, you know, everlasting and therefore we need an everlasting material to work with. So they do ascribe properties to the stone and importance to it, but not necessarily stone itself.
00:19:11
Speaker
in that sense, at least doesn't carry a medical property, but to damn it symbolize a sort of magic when they use it in that pyramid or in a temple. Yeah, and actually, oh, that that is an interesting one. It's like, ah when when does stone pick up the kind of the the the magic? if If you want to see magic in the stone, when does it pick it up? Does it pick it up when you see it in the quarry, when when you kind of you you pry it out, which I think is literally the words that they use in ancient aliens. like When did mankind you start prying stone out from the quarries? like yeah When does it pick up that magic? Yeah, but that's interesting. Does it pick up magic also because you're sort of using it in interesting ways, in ways that it's not kind of
00:19:58
Speaker
ah wow ways that it's not obvious that a stone can be used in. i I think what I'm getting at is um that the the old kind of megalith structure with the sort of the, probably know the name and I don't, you got stone standing like that and you got a stone over the top. Thank you.
00:20:17
Speaker
ah very thorough knowledge from me and thank you. ah like i What I find really interesting is that one of the properties of stone is that it is very heavy and so it doesn't seem like a logical kind of normal thing to be able to do with it, to kind of balance this heavy stone on top of other stones.
00:20:40
Speaker
So that in itself, if you're going to look at it like this, is when stone starts to pick up that sort of magic. And I think going back to ancient aliens, I think one of the things that was mentioned in several of the sites that they talk about is kind of how did they do this? And then that's like, well, you know, experimental archeology is a thing. We kind of know how they did it. um But I find it very interesting that this stone has this property of weight, which makes it difficult to maneuver and manipulate.
Ancient vs. Modern Views on Stone
00:21:14
Speaker
Therefore, when you see kind of stones balanced on top of each other in weird configurations, you're immediately thinking, that's so heavy. We could never do that. You're having that emotional response to stone's property.
00:21:26
Speaker
And I'm just going to say it, that's where Stone has this secondary agency is kind of working working with us. And it's interesting because that agency is most likely not the agency it had for people of the time. If we go back to the dolmen, they, if you look at dolmens and how they are used, usually used over generation, we can talk, you know, a century or longer. At millennia, we see these places so being reused and it doesn't seem as the structure itself is the magic part because they knew how to build it. That wasn't, it you know, strange, what was magic was so what's going on in there. That's interesting. But yeah, so for them, the importance wasn't the construction because yeah, we did it. We, you know, it's not that hard, or you know, so have to pull it. You see, you just levitate it, right? We have these magical bonds from the aliens.
00:22:20
Speaker
oh Why are you making such a fuss? Well, yeah. And ah sorry, I think that goes back to actually something else that ancient aliens kind of type people seem to forget is that we they they say sort of like, we why don't we build pyramids today? Why don't we do this? And it's like, because we've moved on. We have our own kind of engineering marvels. We just, we don't think of them as marvels because we see them every day. we A skyscraper.
00:22:49
Speaker
Yeah, and that's an engineering marvel of something. Exactly. I mean, it's so sometimes hideous depending on how it works. But it is kind of, it's just like our perception of what is miraculous or our perception of what is kind of, yeah, miraculous, I just use that word again, has changed over time.
Critique of Ancient Aliens' Tactics
00:23:08
Speaker
So it it's it's like we're finding ah things that we could or were just built easily were looking at them and thinking, well, how did we build them? But, yeah, I just went off on that.
00:23:21
Speaker
But we still build pyramids today, we just use different materials. like I mean, go to Los Angeles, you have two or three pyramids. The Louvre has a pyramid. Nicholas Cage's tomb. He's built a pyramid-shaped tomb in New Orleans in a cemetery. I'm not that surprised, actually. Not at all, to be honest.
00:23:45
Speaker
love that for him. He's got his tomb ready and waiting and it's a pyramid. I mean I wouldn't mind a pyramid for my tomb but that's a discussion I have to have with other people I guess. Do do you really want the Nicolas Cage vibe with it though? Because I mean he will be the OG pyramid or the modern pyramid tomb now. I could maybe live with a stone ship or something like that.
00:24:10
Speaker
But when in the episode they talk about all these different approaches and from experience, it's the so-called shotgun approach. They just bombast you with had several sites, time periods, locations, everything is spread out and then they try to bind it with a narrative. How did you react to this? Did you fall for it or was it just a frustrating experience?
00:24:35
Speaker
and this is where me being a historian, I probably found it more confusing than I should have done. like I knew it was nonsense, but I don't know that I, frankly, anything before the 1800s and 19th century empire. possibly a little bit into the 1700s, if I'm feeling, you know, if I'm having a good day, that's just all Eldritch horror time
Charlotte's Insights on Avonbury
00:24:58
Speaker
to me. I don't understand anything back there. It's darkness. No, not quite. But actually, that is something that did strike me a bit. Like, I i have a rough idea of sort of, you know, prehistoric time periods. i have i can I can get a feel, I've been around many museums,
00:25:19
Speaker
But for someone who has no idea, I can see that this... but Like, it is literally, it's it's just a bombarding, it's almost like a kind of, of a toward the end at least it got worse as well. They're just throwing things at me. I can see that it would be confusing. There was stuff that I just, i I don't have much of a reference point for, so I was just thinking, I could really use an archaeologist to explain this to me. So hello!
00:25:48
Speaker
okay Yeah, definitely. And I think that's a lot of what they they go for, isn't it? Just throw things at people and see what sticks. In most times. So one site to bring up is Avonbury. And that's something you've visited before? Yeah. I haven't been to Stonehenge, but I have been to Avonbury.
00:26:12
Speaker
um it's Avery is a really interesting sight and people will say that they have a much stronger emotional reaction to Avery than to Stonehenge because you can walk among the stones, you can touch the stones, you can feel the vibrations if you are so inclined.
Authenticity of Ancient Sites
00:26:29
Speaker
I have touched Avery stones, I did not feel any vibrations but maybe it was because I was not so inclined.
00:26:39
Speaker
um What I found really interesting about Avery though is, and this is something that doesn't really get talked about, although it is in the little museum on site, is that some of the stones are not in their original places. um Avery has one of the things, i he I think they even say it in the ancient aliens, is that the stone circle is so big that it's got a village in it. It's like, well,
00:27:04
Speaker
okay that's very cute and all but the village is really small and also they moved the stones to build the village like some of them were knocked down some of them were moved it's not the original site so when you go there and you have this emotional reaction to it what are you what are you reacting to is a question i don't know the answer to and i don't think it needs an answer but i think it's a question to ask because you're not reacting to the authentic site No, and I think that's a con not confusion, but this idea we have about Asian site that they are all original and many of them aren't, frankly, many of them are reconstructions or
00:27:44
Speaker
Some are better, some are worse. and i mean If we go to, for example, Athens, the Panthenon people, imagine it's been there for ages and looked like this for ages, but almost all of it is reconstructed. It's not original in that sense. People have gone back to all painters and tried as best as we could. but The sites are, in a way, reborn as archaeologists have dealt with it. them Of course, archaeologists in the 1800s had a very different approach than we have today. For example, some excavated sites with dynamites.
00:28:24
Speaker
Some didn't and I mean in the best of worlds they would have just left it as is because the size would have been in better shape today but that's a long long discussion that I think we will have in another episode but There is this imagination of a site being ancient, and I think many associated with their identity and culture, and especially the New Age movement,
Cultural Significance of Stone
00:28:51
Speaker
have this idea of naturality and spirituality that can be a bit problematic in a sense.
00:29:00
Speaker
But again, they associate it with the idea they you have, not necessarily what the site was to the ancient people. And that's an importance we need to have when we discuss the religion of site and people, because... Well, I'm an archaeologist, but... With some religion study now, I mean, we kind of have to think about how they felt about the site and we can't really be sure how they felt about it because we associate like the tombs. We think of how it was built is the nice part, but for them it was who was associated with what
00:29:39
Speaker
family, live with resides in here, what spirits or whatever, not necessarily the site itself. And we see that in rave goods and other sites, things that they put importance, reuse, they put other monuments around. So in Sweden, we have one site that's been used since basically the main land of Gotland is a little island in the Baltic wall started to be populated. We have very few dolmens. We have two of them, one still kind of standing. But this is surrounded by a large Viking Age stone chip and three more a bit further away. We have a lot of Bronze Age graves in the area and people have put importance inside this little dolmen. There's like 23 kilos of human remains we have excavated.
00:30:34
Speaker
i I love that that's a specific, someone group them and weight them, 23 kilos of human remains. And if you look at that teeth, it's like, now I don't remember exactly, but I think it's like 90 individuals. Right. So again, there's importance to this decide that the construction, but how much magic it is, I don't think it really is in the construction, but more of who's inside it, so to say.
00:31:02
Speaker
But of course, representing this idea in stones make it eternal, which might be the magic, but it's not as fancy as aliens did it, or the stone has a magic appropriate.
Psychoanalysis of Stone Attraction
00:31:16
Speaker
I think it's Stone Age to talk about that. They go there and to be healed.
00:31:22
Speaker
A dead quote is from Yefrit de Mont, the moment French author from medieval ages. Not any scientific base where they just claimed that you went there to get healed. But we see that in other sites that now I lost it completely. Damn Yefrit de Mont. So it's very medieval of him to come back and haunt you and disturb your yeah ah youre thinking. That's very medieval. ah Yeah, and you see, I thought of something as well, but but now I've lost it. Oh, yes. um ah the The idea of the stone being eternal as being the magic yeah or the magic, because it's what's left over that we see.
00:32:08
Speaker
And I think your point about that being um not as exciting, possibly, as the ancient aliens thing is really interesting, because, ooh, and this is where I'm gonna go a bit like psychology, I don't know, a bit of psychoanalysis on the ancient aliens people. I i wonder if, ah because one of the reasons that I think as humans we are attracted to stone and building everlasting monuments is frankly, because humans are,
00:32:38
Speaker
very, very finite creatures in you know world history. we do We are not around for long um individually and as different eras and also just as ah as a species. We have not been around for long. I think humans very much feel their mortality and I wonder in some way if the ancient aliens people don't want to acknowledge their own mortality and that's why they're sort of ascribing these these monuments to like a much bigger sort of immortal kind of vibe to them rather than just sort of
00:33:15
Speaker
Rather than just acknowledging that, yes, stone is stone is a is stone eternal, though that's another issue. Stone is kind of, it it's long lasting. It has longevity. um you can You can build something from stone and, you know, it might be there in 100 years, probably will be. Instead of just sort of straight up acknowledging that,
00:33:37
Speaker
and sort of acknowledging that it's because of our fallibility as walking meat sacks, essentially, who will decay and turn into dust. Instead of acknowledging that, they have to make it bigger. They have to make it something crazier and more chaotic.
Ancient Aliens' Cult-Like Mentality
00:33:52
Speaker
You know, maybe they're just all very, very insecure about death. Maybe that's it. I mean, we have these new age elements within the ancient alien sphere that of course ties to your own mortality in a sense. so I mean, I think it's quite fair to describe ancient aliens similar ideas as a cult because I think it fits better in that narrative because what they're doing is in science. I think everyone can be quite
00:34:23
Speaker
can agree at least those who listen here, I think. We can agree that this is science and we have these strong cult leaders and the idea of afterlife, if you start to dig deeper down in there, that you have these end-of-day cults based on ancient aliens and all of that. So it all ties into a cult mentality. It's hard to leave it when you get into it, rather colonization and all of that.
00:34:51
Speaker
And on that note, I want to, since we were or already talking about Avonbury, I mean, they don't really say much about the place other than it's, ah you know, weird that they put it up because everything is weird if you don't look into it properly.
00:35:07
Speaker
But we have this stone circle, of course it's connected to a UFO, because UFO is round. We have stone circle around plus round. But we have a connection and it's ah jaor your just circulars make a little quote in here that goes something like this.
00:35:24
Speaker
The mythologies, in conjunction with Avebury, always point to the sky, to some celestial beings. The shining ones, as they were called, descending from the sky and educating people in various disciplines. Agriculture, mathematics, geometry, engineering.
00:35:46
Speaker
And so the quote is basically, he talked about the mythology about Avonbury and the Shining Ones. I just want to bring up the Shining One connection to you know educate someone who might not.
00:36:01
Speaker
i I will say the Shining Ones, I'd never heard of them before. Whoever they are they are, they shine. They're out there and they shine. that's I didn't even understand, honestly. i did i did I could not make sense of his explanation and I wasn't sure if it was worth Googling, so I just thought I'd ask you to step.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, luckily I'm here and can answer this question because it's a deep cut. It's a real deep cut. So the term, the shining ones, is not connected to any legends, of
The Shining Ones Myth
00:36:34
Speaker
course. Or no, it's connected because in modern day it's become associated. We have modern legends that is not part of our ancient history.
00:36:44
Speaker
historical narrative about the site. Now, The Shining Ones are lifted directly from two authors who create a book. They were named Philip Gardner and Gary Olsen. They wrote a book, The Shining Ones, the world's most powerful secret society revealed. And can you guess what's on the front of the cover? Is it one of those eyes? Is it the eye in the pyramid? No, it's worse. Oh, what's worse? It's a story of David. Oh! Oh, no.
00:37:14
Speaker
So of course this is about a secret society and their idea is that the angels from book of Enoch has come down and they start to take over the world creating all the structures and the important things to set up governments and control and everything in the background and then at one point they let the Templars take over that roles and the Templars might or might not still be around and then of course the Freemasons are still doing this behind the curtains.
00:37:47
Speaker
But this narrative has been adopted by ancient aliens. So it kind of, you know, this idea of the reptilians and all of that. The whole book is basically and the, what's the Russian anti-Jewish text, do you remember?
00:38:06
Speaker
Oh, um the Russian one. I know there was one by Henry. ah Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Yeah, exactly. and So it's basically a version of that, but in a new age language. And the what's interesting is there is a connection more here between Garner and Onson. Yeah, Onson. That's a Swedish name. and So, there's also a connection between their narratives because they didn't just make up everything themselves in that books. We find an influence from another source, Mr. Graham Hancock and his white Aryan supremacy priesthood that he talked about in his book that he wrote with and Robert Beauvall back in the 90s. Again, a secret cabal controlling everything behind the curtains.
Racism in Ancient Aliens Narrative
00:38:56
Speaker
So we have this, again, deep
00:38:59
Speaker
As you said, you don't sound inherently racist in the episode because they hide it with the keywords like this. Really getting that impression. so that So the shining ones is basically a sort of a dog whistle. It's basically just low key, here we go. When I say that, yeah when you're going to conjure all of this up.
00:39:18
Speaker
And when you Google The Shining One, you will get to this book and you will get more and more radicalized. And they use it as a kind of catchall for reptilians and atlantis and freematans and... Oh, I can't. There's too much. I can't. I... Yeah, okay. Okay.
00:39:40
Speaker
So, yeah, it looks innocent and good and kind of, you know, smooth on the television. But that's because they don't say that those part out loud when they kind of catch you in it. So they have they've they've never then explained the shining ones properly. but And that wasn't the first episode that it turns up in. No, it repeats in several just episodes. Oh, that's creepy.
00:40:04
Speaker
So you have, and you have several versions of them too, that you catch if you, you know, watch it enough of times because you have the Star Shield runs. That's basically, and that's most connected to Native American folklore, but not as they really represent it. Again, it's a bastardization.
00:40:23
Speaker
Again, they're rewriting Native American legends to fit their preferred narrative. So it's a plastic shamanist that's going on in there. And again, it's deeply connected to the New Age movement.
00:40:37
Speaker
me
00:40:44
Speaker
Right.
Stone's Role in Human History
00:40:45
Speaker
Okay. And i I find it so fascinating that all these, this whole racist world is just built on top of stone. And that's the foundation and they've just taken it, they've taken their emotional reaction to walking into a site and not having a clue about it. They've gone with, they've they've basically been I don't know. You see, i'm I'm searching for an analogy, but I don't want to insult either human toddlers or animals. i'm i'm searching for They they've just basically grabbed onto the first shiny thing they saw. Haven't bothered to do the research because research is boring and difficult. And then they've just added layers and layers of shiny things until they've built this temple out of nothing, basically.
00:41:35
Speaker
Terrifying. Excellent. And I mean, stone is an important part of human history in many aspects. For example, without flint tools, our society wouldn't have gotten to the length as quickly as we did. And I mean, there is importance and moving heavy stone is difficult, but it's not beyond. the boat And we've shown again, again, experimental archaeology moving stones and there's videos from it's I think it's around Indonesia and there was and these people Nias people think they're called and they for I don't remember exactly why they had this tradition but once a year they used to move a 50 ton stone block through the village they connected this to something important in their culture I don't remember exactly what but
00:42:34
Speaker
But we have video of them doing this. 50-tone stone block by hand. And this was 1930s or something like that. So, I mean, it's before today's been known for a long time that we can do it. It's just that we so don't have to do it yeah any longer.
00:42:51
Speaker
Why would you put yourself at risk of injury and horrificness when you can just get a crane to do it for you? Yeah, and my favourite example is when they're trying to demonstrate that it's impossible to move with modern machinery. We see them using the wrong tool for the job, so they use a crane that's really meant to you know pick up some smaller stuff and lift up a couple of meters, and then let's lift this 50-ton block up on this truck that's not designed to carry that tiny type of load. But if you you know design a truck that's supposed to move this and build it, it will move it just fine, or a crane, a proper construction crane instead for that flinky rental that you got to the gas station.
00:43:37
Speaker
i mean yeah have Have they not seen like modern mining and quarrying machinery? it It's massive, it's huge. That's ridiculous. They are ridiculous. I'm sure they've seen this, but they just don't show within the show. Are they are they just walking around just with blinkers on? maybe Maybe that's it. Maybe they just don't. I guess it's some sort of cognitive dissonance going on there that they know it exists, but they don't make the connection or they don't want to don't want to. Again, we have this sort of cult mentality. So if the cult leader says it's impossible, then
00:44:13
Speaker
But it must be impossible and we don't go online to, you know. We only go online to look up the shining ones. Yeah. Yeah. Not not on the heavy duty team machinery that can move stones. Yeah. I mean, the largest construction ever moved is our own platform called Troll 2. Weighing something like 5,000 tons. Some imagine they move by 20 boats.
00:44:39
Speaker
Right. So not impossible. Just a lot of resources, but not impossible. Yeah. You're slowly and securely. And that's why a lot more, or is it five million tons? It's an astronomical you know amount of weight. And so, I mean, these ideas are rather silly, but again, they again put some magic thought to the stone that don't really fit.
19th Century Stone Moving Techniques
00:45:04
Speaker
But Yeah, um that's also, it it's just reminding me this idea of ah going going back to going back to the 19th century is my favorite thing to say. um A guy called Belzoni did a lot of work on the the pyramids, ah the Great Pyramid specifically. I think he was one of the ones who dynamited the pyramids, so that's kind of awkward.
00:45:27
Speaker
um and But he describes or um he he describes kind of coming across the pyramids and sort of like walking across the desert and finding them. And as with many 19th century descriptions of archaeological sites, one of the things that strikes him is that the stones are so big, they're so heavy, and how did they move them? So this this is something that has been a question for so long, but Bells only didn't ascribe it to aliens.
00:45:56
Speaker
Belzoni was an engineer. um The dude he worked with, whose name I cannot remember, was also an engineer as well. They knew that it was... I mean, actually... Ooh, interesting point. So, um in the British Museum... where Britain keeps all of its stolen stuff. um There is in fact a colossal granite head of ramesses. I'm not an Egyptologist. It's one of the ramesses. And it's big. It's very big. it's And it must be heavy. It's it's not like a kind of ah a small pet. It's big.
00:46:31
Speaker
Belzoni moved that out of Egypt. He he he moved it. he I can't remember how he did it, but he did it because he was an engineer. And that's what you do when you're an engineer. You move things that seem impossible. And it's actually, now that I think about it, um in the 19th century, they moved, transported and packed. There's so many large bits of stone. Yeah, several obelisks went across Europe and Same way if we go back to Roman times, the Romans loved obelisks. They moved them across the Roman Empire, put it up in different arenas and squares. I mean, and they moved it with technology they had. And it's not that far from what the ancient Egyptians would have had a thousand years earlier if we hadn't developed. I mean, they didn't have steam engines in their Romans or
00:47:22
Speaker
whatever. But yeah, in the 19th century, mean we moved obelisk from Egypt to New York. Yeah. and we've We've always done it. We've always moved heavy things. It's just, it it is that disconnect of we know that this stone is so freaking heavy. So there is just like, it just takes a minute to when you're standing there as an individual to imagine how you could move it. Yeah.
00:47:49
Speaker
And that's that's, again, that's where the ancient aliens people just don't make that leap. They don't understand that if they're standing in front of a huge stone kind of construction, it's not just them as an individual that would have built it or moved it. It's like ah people with knowledge of engineering and loads of people would have done it. They're just not not that clever. The ancient aliens people, they're just not that self-aware.
00:48:17
Speaker
ah No, but they kind of look upon people as inferior.
Man-Made Stone Spheres
00:48:22
Speaker
I think that's one of the main issues that they don't look at these cultures as capable. And we see that in how they can't imagine things in their stories and all that. And I want to move on to a different side. Palmasur and the stone's fairs of Costa Rica. Know something you've been familiar with before or was this a first?
00:48:46
Speaker
i I did not know that there were round bits of stone lurking in the world. I mean, I know that stone can be round. I didn't know that there were these specific sites. And frankly, I'm fascinated because I look at a round bit of stone and maybe this is like my GCSE and geography kicking in. And I remember stuff about erosion. and you know, I think about all the lovely smooth pebbles that I've picked up off the seashore. And hagstones as well, that's a ah folklore term, but hagstone stones with holes bored in them. Erosion does magical things. So I would look at a round stone and think, well, okay, maybe someone did carve it, but also if it's by a river, it was probably the river. Apparently, as I learned on ancient aliens, that is not the case. They were not done by rivers.
00:49:39
Speaker
So they in this section, they talk about two different sites. So we have the Palma Sur or the Stonehen, Stone's Fair of Costa Rican. These are actually man-made. And they belong to a site that was used during the Agua Sprenas period, which is roughly around 300-800 CE, and later during the Chiricui period, that's 800 to 1550 CE when the Spanish caused the recap. And from the archaeological evidence we have, this stone sphere seems to have been created earliest 600 CE. In the episode, I want to bring it back a couple of thousands of years. so
00:50:22
Speaker
But now, most likely 600-year analysis, it's hard to date, because we can't really date stone in that sense. We could use thermal luminescence dating, but it wouldn't be applicable in this case, since they have been out in the sun for a bit too long. But in the show, they claim that these are 96% perfect spherical. Do you know where this claim comes from?
00:50:46
Speaker
So an archeologist named Samuel Loforp went around measuring and he had a measuring tape and he measured all the stones and he put down an average by the third decimal.
Bosnian Spheres and Nature's Role
00:50:59
Speaker
His measuring tape can't do third decimal but that's why this claim come because people read that and said oh that's very accurate and didn't read once before and after.
00:51:12
Speaker
and That's how we got 96% accuracy. they are not that If you look at them, they look really nice and spherical, but if you would put any sort of you know very advanced, more than a measuring tape, measure on them, you would notice that they are off and a little bit square.
00:51:31
Speaker
It's not to diminish the the craftsmanship of the people of the time, but it's not this magical spherical stone. But then they go to Bosnia.
00:51:43
Speaker
where our friend, Mosman Osmanegetz, the famous set Bosnian pyramid guy, steps in and he talks about the Bosnian spheres. That's again, thousands and thousands of years old. And here we have a little disconnect and conflict in ancient aliens. Because Amir Osmanegetz, he claims that these spheres in Bosnia are you know proper spheres carved by men. Scotch,
00:52:12
Speaker
that you probably saw in the epi episode. He's a geologist. He doesn't agree with that, actually. Oh, I didn't know. I didn't notice that. So Robert Scott's geologist, he had these weird ideas of the Sphinx and all of that. But and he doesn't really like the pyramids in Bosnia either. You think that those are here, but they have a bit of a conflict. But you never see that in the episode. So there is a little bit of infighting in ancient alien community.
00:52:38
Speaker
But the spheres in Bosnia as far as I can tell are, as you said, erosion. Right. Okay. Because they were by a river, weren't they? Yeah. All of them is by a river. They were by something that might have shaped them. And we have this idea in the ancient alien that nature can't do spheres or straight for some reason.
00:53:03
Speaker
I think I think nature would like to disagree with that very much. I need to disagree with that very much and it shows it as often it can but yeah we have this again they're trying to explain something that doesn't need explanation without using the proper explanations for it.
00:53:19
Speaker
and And again, it i'm I'm just gonna keep coming back to this. it It's such an emotional reaction as well that you're walking through a forest or you're walking somewhere and you see something round and you think, oh, that's out of place.
00:53:33
Speaker
But you you you just go with your immediate kind of, oh, shiny, what what can I kind of do to make this the most interesting thing? You don't just kind of say it was a river. But it's interesting if it was a river as well, because isn't that amazing that the river's kind of like tumbled the stone and created this thing. That is amazing in itself. Why why do you need to add the aliens?
00:53:53
Speaker
because, again, they want to make it more special. And what's interesting is that they put Robert Scotch and Semiro Smaneghis in the same segment, and they kind of cost and cut Scotch out of context, because we hear him earlier how fantastic all of this is, and then we cut directly to Bosnia that he doesn't agree with.
Nationalism and Bosnian Pyramids
00:54:19
Speaker
i I almost wish I'd known that before I watched it, because I would have paid like way like more attention. Because I think the spears are toward the end, so I you know i was starting to like lose my grip on reality a bit. Oh, I wish I'd known. I'm gonna have to rewatch just those guys now and see if I can... Yeah, but they want to make this connection that the spheres around Banjalunka and the spheres in and in Costa Rica are identical. They were made by the same people for the same reason. And how would you have it if they are so far away? But it must have been some connection. And how do you travel that fast?
00:55:00
Speaker
And you need to have a spaceship. Naturally. So that's how they get the logical conclusion. But again, they get there by leaving out all the other steps. Like every other step. Yeah.
00:55:16
Speaker
But to that's an example of someone, again, putting meaning to stone, even if it's not really there, because Osmanis usually had this nationalistic idea of Bosnia, and that's his preferred narrative, that Bosnia once held this super-civilization 10,000 years ago.
00:55:37
Speaker
I have not heard that as an error. Okay, okay. ah Evidence for that from him? The pyramids. Oh, sorry. I should have known. no ah pyramids and bo There pyramids in Bosnia. you've you You've kept referring to this dude as like the pyramid man. I don't even know what pyramids in Bosnia. But also interested and there's an episode out a long time ago, episode 20, I think, where I cover the Bosnian pyramids, everything you want to know about them. that is basically hills in Bosnia that looks pyramidical if you look at them from a certain angle. Okay. So if you get drunk and squint, then okay. You don't even have to be drunk. and wait From a certain angle, it looks very much like a pyramid, but in someone who hikes a lot in the mountains, that's not a very uncommon mountain shape, to be honest.
00:56:32
Speaker
And it's nature, isn't it? Nature does amazing things, and I'm sure nature does not appreciate the work being you know attributed to aliens. you know And if you think about it, mountains evolved by things getting pressed against each other. The pyramid form is quite depressed. It works, doesn't it? Yeah. It's the easiest way of like stacking loads of things on top of each other, and then they don't fall down.
Promoting Charlotte's Work and Podcast Support
00:56:57
Speaker
It's literally the easiest way. Yeah.
00:57:01
Speaker
But if people want to hear more from you, where should I go? I would say check out my YouTube channel. um I am the applied historian on YouTube. Thank you very much for your time. And again, I'm sorry for letting you watching this. I forgive you. It's OK. I might even come back to.
00:57:22
Speaker
And again, a huge thank you to Charlotte and in the show notes, you will find the links to all of her stuff and you should definitely go and check out her channel. And if you happen to be in Manchester, make sure to catch her tour that she has in the city regarding its really interesting journey through Manchester and brings up a new ways on how to look and engage with your surrounding. Now, until next time, please spread the word by leaving a positive review on platforms like iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to this. And
00:58:02
Speaker
Even better, recommend an episode or two to your friends. It really helps the show. ah And they on the website you find links to Charlotte's stuff this week. And if you want to support the show, head over to patreon.com slash digging up ancient aliens. so And if you prefer to not use Patreon, there's a member portal at diggingupancientaliens.com slash support.
00:58:27
Speaker
both ah Both ways of contributing gives you the same same content. It's ah earlier episodes, there's bonus content, we're reading shares of the gods currently, and also of course ad-free episodes. And remember that archaeologicalpodcastnetwork dot.com has a lot of other great content that you can go and check out.
00:58:49
Speaker
And they also celebrate 10 years of producing amazing archeology podcast here in December. I think there will be an event there taking place. So keep an eye out for that. You can also join their Discord server or sign up as a member and get some additional bonus there too. And you can contact me through most social media sites. And if you have comments, corrections, suggestions, or just hankering to write that email in all caps, you find my contact info on the website.
00:59:19
Speaker
Sandra Martellor creates the intro music and an outro is by the band called Trád Skriv, who sings their song Fúllehát. Links to both of these artists can be found in the show notes. Until next time, keep shoveling that science!