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Saving Mes Aynak, Cultural Heritage in Conflict with Brent E Huffman - MM 22
423 Plays1 month ago
10 Years ago, Brent was interviewed by Tristan about the film Saving Mes Aynak and now they are reuinted in podcast form once again.
Across the world, cultural heritage faces the threat of human development, for things like housing or resources. 10 years ago Saving Mes Aynak was a film about a Buhddist archaeological site of the same name in Afgahistan and followed the stories of Afgan archaeologists in their attempts to record and perserve the archaeological record under the threat of the Taliban and more directly, a Chinese mining company, looking to extract copper from the area.
In this episode, Brent recounts his time filming Saving Mes Aynak and reflects on the political changes in the country since then. Also discussed in his current project, which is about cultural heritage under threat, and telling the stories of the people who are attempting to rescue it.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Meet Brent E. Huffman
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Modern Myth Podcast with me, your host Tristan, the anarchiologist. Now today has been a journey of a decade, almost to the day. It seems that when I looked back at previously talking to my guest, it was October 2014.
00:00:44
Speaker
And I was talking to him about a film, a film about cultural heritage in crisis. That was Saving Mezz Inac. And I'm joined today by Brent E. Huffman. And Brent, just would you mind letting our listeners know who you are and tell us a little bit about your kind of background.
00:01:07
Speaker
Sure. Again, my name is Brenty Huffman. I am a professor at Northwestern University at the journalism school. And I'm also, of course, a documentary filmmaker. And I'm really passionate about human rights and social justice and and and in this case, cultural heritage and where those things all sort of meet up.
00:01:26
Speaker
And like you said, I made this documentary, actually actually began the process way back in 2009. So it's been even longer than 10 years. it's It's scary how fast ah how fast time flies. But yeah, i'm I'm excited to talk about this this morning.
Saving Mes Aynak: A Cultural Heritage Story
00:01:40
Speaker
So I'm just wondering in terms of like placing ourselves at that time way back when In terms of the reception, I've been looking through all the information on saving Ms. Eineck and the kind of accolades it's got, the kind of attention it's got. How have you felt that it's been received? Has there been a time when you've been almost surprised about the the the impact or the outreach, or do you feel like the story is so powerful that like you knew it it should have had that kind of effect?
00:02:14
Speaker
If we travel way back to 2009, I read a New York Times story about a Chinese government owned mining company that was going to set up in an area controlled by the Taliban, and I was going to mine. We're going to bring in you know Chinese workers, sort really surreal story, bring in these kind of Chinese workers.
00:02:34
Speaker
and open pit mine for copper in, you know, in Logar Province, again, this Taliban controlled area, this dangerous area. And then kind of a a footnote to the story was there's there was some kind of archaeological remains, you know, that may be destroyed, be you know, as a result of this open pit mine.
00:02:55
Speaker
And that' sort of that sort of piqued my interest. I'm very interested in China's kind of push into the world. And I, you know, in ah in a rented cobble taxi, traveled to this area, you know, in in Logar Province to sort of see it for myself. And this sort of started this process of making this this documentary that eventually becomes Saving Me Sinek. And what I discover is, you know, these This footnote in this New York Times story, this this archaeological site is actually this you know enormous sprawling you know ancient Buddhist city that's and on top of an older you know Bronze Age site. So there's 5,000 year plus history here that was all sort of set to be destroyed, basically you know ah blown up in this open-pit mining process.
00:03:43
Speaker
And the food the film eventually becomes is you know documenting the Afghan archaeologists who are you know risking their lives to try to save um you know this incredible incredible heritage you know before the the looming deadline and everything has exploded. you know Everything's blown up. so it's a It was this very sort of dramatic story. The film, as you say, came out in 2014. It eventually went to Netflix. It played around the world on you know different TV stations and film festivals and won awards. And all that all that was great, but really the you know the goal was to to raise awareness about this incredible site under threat to really highlight the
00:04:25
Speaker
you know the amazing work of these Afghan archaeologists and and you know really to stop this from you know stop so stop this cultural heritage tragedy from happening. you know we We can get into the the the details that there have been you know good things that have happened, there have been really bad things that have that have happened. But that that was the you know the goal is to save this this incredible ancient city.
Archaeology in Conflict Zones vs. Stable Regions
00:04:50
Speaker
It's very interesting that if I contrast that to how, for example, archaeology is conducted in the UK or even in the US, a lot of it is what would be could called a salvage archaeology in the sense that
00:05:04
Speaker
you know, developers coming in, archaeologists go kind of first take off the first couple layers, try and dig that out. And in the process of this being done, the land is meant to be kind of developed for for us in the present. And it's interesting that, you know, contrasting that with how this kind of like site the There was no real intention from what I understand from the company coming in who were mining for copper to really take the time to kind of analyze that. and It kind of makes me feel that like archaeology shouldn't really always be about salvage. It shouldn't always be about trying to mitigate problems, but I think we should be also focusing on preserving that. You know, when you were out there filming stuff, you must have filmed a lot of these different places. How much of that footage is of the site as you saw it?
00:06:08
Speaker
back when you were filming, do you have like a huge archive of like all the details or how did you go about doing your shots in that respect? Yeah, yeah, that's that's a great question. and And to sort of take a step back to your previous point, you know, I believe that, you know, the archaeologists were calling it like rescue archaeology, instead of, you know, a normal archaeological dig where they were you know given a really finite amount of time to, in in a very kind of reckless way, you know try to dig as fast as they can and see what's there to to to try to remove what they could you know before this this deadline. So you're right. it It was this very kind of rushed, chaotic process. And I was you know trying to document as many different things. And and I think, you know yeah, you're right. I have an archive of
00:06:58
Speaker
hundreds of different artifacts from, you know, manuscripts that were, you know, some of the oldest manuscripts ever discovered, you know, being pulled from the ground to, you know, life-size statues of Buddhist statues to to pottery, to coins, to rings, to jewelry, you know, to architecture.
00:07:17
Speaker
So they were in this very rushed, chaotic way. The you know archaeologists were discovering just hundreds of different items. My time at the site was very limited because of danger and security. And, you know, I think I had sort of these these small, like three to four hour windows where I could, you know, a day where I could sort of document as much as I could. And then I would sort of have to have to leave before, you know, before it started to get dark, before the site was potentially in danger from a Taliban attack. you So yeah, it was definitely not like business as usual for archaeologists. It was sort of this extreme surreal situation. And again, we were trying to save the site, but at the very least, I do have kind of a visual record of, you know, here's here's what was discovered during that time. And again, here's, you know, sort of the the Afghan archaeologist contribution to this sort of incredible project.
00:08:13
Speaker
I think that is something that is so, so valuable. I think sometimes, and it's an outgrowth of what archaeology has always been, which has always had roots in a kind of colonialism and a kind of imperialism that you know, it's always felt that the most knowledgeable or the the most best equipped to kind of do archaeology is people from generally the west going out to other countries and analyzing these past civilizations when I think really what we all should be advocating for is platforming the voices of archaeologists in those countries, in those communities. And I think that that is so valuable because
00:08:54
Speaker
you know when i hear what you know When I think about what's what's happened, it's always interesting to me about what was saved and what was left. Archaeology is a lot about context, it's a lot about the environment, it's a lot about not just what but where and when and how. And it's very interesting to me to see was there kind of a difference between what you felt as a film director, what made it interesting shot versus what archaeologists were digging up and saying, well, this is actually really, really fundamentally interesting.
00:09:31
Speaker
did you feel kind of like that you kind of like were kind of going off what they were saying or did you have a kind of a director cap on as well you know in terms of the filming?
Western Narratives vs. Local Voices in Archaeology
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah those I feel like there's two questions there that are really great one is that um this idea of of, you know, our archaeology, whether it's it's in documentaries or on, you know, National Geographic, there there was a big focus on sort of, you know, Western white male, you know, European white male archaeologists parachuting into someplace and discovering, you know, kind of like Christopher Columbus, right? Like yeah I've discovered this thing that, you know, local people have known about forever and and whatever. There is a long history of kind of that process. And I think it was
00:10:18
Speaker
it was extremely important. And this this project, I'm working on a new film and in in Yemen, but in both projects, you know, it's the it's the and indigenous people that are, I think, and their perspective that are most important. And it's, you know, in Afghanistan, it's the the Afghan archaeologists that I feel are the most knowledgeable. They were the ones actually doing the, you know, all of the work. There was a push to not focus on them. And there was also a push if there was some problem to blame, to quickly blame the the Afghan archaeologists, right? Oh, they did something wrong. And it was, you know, it was really important for me not to kind of fall into that that that trap and to highlight their voices and their contribution. You know, this was really their, to me, this was their project and they were, the you know, the heroes of this
00:11:08
Speaker
this work. you know And as you know as they're digging, they're getting you know text messages from the Taliban saying, you know if you don't stop this, I'm going to kill you and your family. right So imagine yeah you know the the work is so important to them that they will ignore a text message that basically you know says, we're goingnna we're going to kill you. And then your your other question I think is also great. I definitely had my director's hat on sort of in terms of what I thought was significant, but certainly if they were, you know, if they were like, Oh, you got, you know, you got to come see this, this is really important. You know, that kind of thing was always, always in the documentary as well. What do you think you kind of learned about the process of archaeology while you were out there while you were filming? What what do you think by even by also nurses kind of was like, Oh, okay, this is how it's done. Is there a particular thing that kind of stood out to you? Yeah.
00:12:05
Speaker
That's a great question. and and And to take a step back, I'm, you know, I guess it's obvious I'm not an archaeologist, you know, I come from a journalism and documentary background. So I've taken archaeological you know archaeology archaeology classes before and this sort of introduction archaeology. I think <unk>t I don't know if this is this is the um the the expected answer, but it It was true in Afghanistan. like ah i I was surprised how political the dig was. And I was surprised by this this this sort of sense of, um you know and in the beginning, ah you asked this question of, like you know did I expect there to be this big impact of the documentary? that you know I think that one way I was educated on this is that
00:12:50
Speaker
you know, archae archaeologists are motivated by different sort of political ideologies, I guess. And there there wasn't, and this surprised me, there wasn't this sense of like, you know, this this site should be saved out of principle, or, you know, this site should be saved because it's the right thing to do. I felt people other than the Afghan archaeologists were sort of pulled in different political you know directions, whether it's, you know, we want a relationship with China, so we're not going to, you know, we're not going to sort to say what's happening here is wrong. Or this idea of, you know,
00:13:25
Speaker
sites get destroyed all the time and you know there are other you know more important sites you know there were there were these sort of politics involved with the with archaeology that has surprised me i guess naively maybe i expected more of this sense of you know camaraderie that here's this amazing heritage it's going to be destroyed let's all come together to save it that that was not the case at all it was more I mean, that was the case for the Afghan archaeologists, but ah any other archaeology group, I think, was pulled in a a sort of political direction of, you know, you know what's our relationship you know with the with the US who was you know who had a ah big foothold and you know um at the site at the time? What's the relationship with China?
00:14:13
Speaker
with Yeah, it was I mean, it was disappointing to like, I felt like my film made a lot of enemies, honestly, you know, because the message of the film didn't sort of fit in the their political box of, you know, what they wanted to, to say.
00:14:29
Speaker
I mean, this is completely my wheelhouse, Brent. like this is The past is unfortunately political, but that's because we live in a political world. and I think the thing is that people's relation to the past, which I'm really, really intrigued by, I think tells us a lot about who we are as societies. It's it's one of those things because Even in in the UK, there's been a whole big political kind of cacophony about a tunnel being built through the landscape near Stonehenge. and yeah it's It's divided archaeologists. It's one of these things where you know I think I think instead of, you know, like as as an archaeologist, I tried to understand things beyond the political, but I understand that it is all part of that. And especially when you're going to a different country which has different rules and different customs and different cultures and politics and tradition, the important thing is to kind of step back from that. And I think by by not taking a stance in this respect, I think that is maybe
00:15:34
Speaker
the the better outcome for the documentary. Although, you know, saying that, you know, anybody even you know you'll know is making a film is making a perspective, you know, whether it's overt or it's more subtle. And I like to think of the past as also not necessarily being translated into the present through archaeologists just showing the data or saying, oh, this is this.
00:16:04
Speaker
ah We have to interpret the past, and when we do that, we we always put a little bit of ourselves into that. But if we're kind of cosient of that point, that we're actually expressing somewhat of ourselves in that interpretation, we can actually take the time to to reflect on that a little better. Because I think it's it's worse to kind of have this idea that, oh, everything is just so, you know, oh, it was just like that, it was just like that. No, no, actually there's a, there's, there's perspective going on here. And it's, it's, it's interesting to me that like, there are, there were so many like kind of competing political interests and pressures on something that, you know, at first glance is simply about preserving cultural heritage, which should be on everybody's kind of list. But
Current Situation in Mes Aynak and New Yemen Project
00:16:59
Speaker
we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about that after this very, very short break.
00:17:04
Speaker
And we're back. You're listening to Modern Myth with me, Tristan. My guest today is Brent E. Huffman, who's the director of Saving Mess INAC. Now, we've kind of talked a little bit about, obviously, filming at the time and the kind of the the kind of pressures around that and the kind of politics involved in that. Obviously, Afghanistan has now gone through quite a radical political transformation.
00:17:32
Speaker
I'm just wondering, home you know after filming and everything, did you keep contact with the archaeologists that you filmed with? Yes, yes. And I think this is this is probably the the burning question of of ah you know what's what's happening now. you know Honestly, this is the the nightmare scenario. it's It's one that I i didn't you know exactly anticipate, this idea that the ah My country, the United States, would in many ways abandon you know Afghanistan. At least that's that's the way I see it, would um abandon this long-term partner and friend and and turn its back on the the country. And it was a sort of a big surprise to everyone that you know kind of overnight the US is is no longer goingnna i'm going to protect
00:18:18
Speaker
Afghans in Afghanistan and you know the the Taliban sort of violently came came in, and for the last three years have you know obviously controlled every aspect of the country. They're in control of Maysinek. They're the ones now that are going to benefit from this very lucrative deal with the Chinese government, which for obvious reasons, they want to you know they want this to to happen so they can get paid. Yeah, it's it's been ah it's been a ah horrific nightmare for Afghans, the the Afghan archaeologists have all tried to you know flee the country, some successfully, some it's been extraordinarily extraordinarily difficult to to try to get out as they have like extended family members and grandparents.
00:19:02
Speaker
So, it's not just about them leaving, they want to leave with their whole families, but essentially the the Afghan archaeologists, because they worked with the you know the the US government, may sinac you know the the World Bank was part partially funding the archaeological efforts at Maysinek. So, because of these connections, you know they're under tremendous threat.
00:19:25
Speaker
from the the Taliban for for religious reasons too. A lot of the main characters are of a different religion than the Taliban. So there's persecution that happens because of that. So there are sort of multiple reasons why the Taliban want to you know either either lock up or execute these these heroic Afghan archeologists.
00:19:47
Speaker
So a big effort of mine has been to try to you know to try to help them to get out of the country, which which is, as you can probably imagine, extraordinarily difficult. And and now the big news is just in in August, the MCC,
00:20:04
Speaker
Chinese government-owned company has been given the green light to start mining. They've actually formally started that process of mining. Maysynak has not been destroyed yet, but that's sort of the the looming thing that you know all of us and in heritage that are related to this story have, I think, been trying to you know stop the site from from being destroyed and and and and trying to get the Taliban. i mean Imagine we're trying to get the Taliban and this Chinese government-owned company to mine in a different way to save the site. i mean it's just It's the worst possible scenario that could ever happen, probably. yeah and That's that's sort of what we're facing now. It's sad that it's kind of come to this. i mean you know the the you know Obviously,
00:20:51
Speaker
but I can't imagine what it's like to be in that situation in any capacity. I think i think it's one of those things where it feels as if you know some sort of you know global connected effort would be useful and beneficial in this way to kind of prevent this kind of but almost like, you know, this kind of green lighting, but it's it's unfortunately, I guess, part of the flow of history. And it's just, I mean, partially fortunate that there has been this, you know, this kind of documentary to kind of at least save a slice
00:21:31
Speaker
of time in which you know the attempts were made to do as much as possible. it's It's interesting to me that your focus continues to be on stories of cultural heritage that are under threat. So as I understand, you're currently working on a documentary about cultural heritage in Yemen. Could you tell us a bit more about that?
00:21:58
Speaker
Yes, so in in a very similar vein, I mean, in in some ways, it's ah you know it's ah it's a shared story between between Afghans. So i'm I've been working on this project, at least sort of attempting to get access for for at least five years, honestly. And ah to to maybe take a little so step step back again, I am if my family were here, you know, my my young children were a part of this conversation, I think they would they would also sort of notice I have this
00:22:33
Speaker
I sometimes describe it as a sort of dysfunction in my in my brain, maybe, where i'm I'm very attracted to stories where you know there's there's a human rights story or this cultural heritage at risk story that is in many ways impossible to tell, or or i'm I'm told from people involved that it's an impossible story. So in many ways, F.B. Mason's story was an impossible story. No one wanted to talk about this. No one wanted to be on camera.
00:22:59
Speaker
access to the site was extraordinarily difficult. you know The list sort of goes on and on. and And Yemen is that same way. like Just to get a visa to Yemen took me you know almost a year, if you can believe it. And then the the visa is just like the starting point to getting many different levels of access. Yemen
Changing Focus in Archaeology: Everyday Stories
00:23:18
Speaker
is an extraordinarily sort of complicated and and divided country.
00:23:23
Speaker
But my plan was to to to tell a story, again, like the Masonic story, of Yemeni people trying to save cultural heritage in different parts of the country during an act of you know war. right So Yemen has been essentially in sort of a civil war for you know over 10 years. And if you follow the news, you know that that that That continues and the bombing you know that's that's happening in Yemen continues to just last week it's being sort of actively bombed so the the the idea was. Again in the sort of.
00:24:01
Speaker
impossible impossible story, but this very compelling story, try to get access to Yemen you know and try to highlight these individuals that are, again, risking their life to try to save you know heritage while you know their their world is being sort of you know active actively bombed. right sort of I think this really sort of compelling story in in In saving Maisonic, I always felt really bad that there weren't women, you know, it subjects in the film, like it's a very it's a very male film. And part of that is, you know, just simply the Afghan archaeologists working in Maisonic were all male and it was it was a cultural thing. And for a man to interview a woman, like especially a foreign man to interview a woman in any way in Afghanistan is
00:24:50
Speaker
a very tricky you know cultural process that's very difficult. So in this in this new film in Yemen, I'm really trying to focus on you know women, Yemenis, cultural heritage specialists and archeologists, again, trying to save heritage. And and Yemen, to you know it's a relatively small country.
00:25:12
Speaker
has just this you know treasure trove of of history and sort of importance in the world. It has five UNESCO World Heritage Sites, all of which are under threat from from war or from climate change. you know Something we haven't talked about yet is the way climate is also. you know threatening every part of of heritage, really. um Looting is happening at Mesanek, looting is happening in Yemen. So there's kind of this this perfect storm of of all of these threats happening in Yemen in in some of the most incredible you know heritage sites.
00:25:50
Speaker
that, you know, especially in the United States, you know, that that really no one knows about. So much like Afghanistan, you know, the the stereotypes, the negative stereotypes in the US around Yemen are all about, you know, war and and famine, and really be know nothing about this rich heritage that is, you know, that is disappearing and that people are fighting Yemeni people are fighting to try to preserve I think that's that is the human story that's at the heart
Role of Media in Cultural Heritage Storytelling
00:26:20
Speaker
of these kind of things. and I think you know it's it's very easy for people to you know disengage themselves. i mean we We kind of do live in a society where we almost have this information overload and it's difficult to kind of contend
00:26:36
Speaker
with all the conflict going around the world, that really these are things impacting people's daily lives and that in those same situations we may also find ourselves, were we in the middle of conflict, attempting to make the best of the situation and preserve heritage in our own areas as well. And I think that joining that line is, I think, the way to kind of and get to people because I think ultimately, you know, providing a kind of human face to these kind of situations sometimes is is the pancia to, you know, the kind of relentless scrolling or the relentless newsfeed where, you know, numbers are chucked around and you almost get desensitized to things like, you know, the the the consequences of war and conflict. I'm really glad you brought up climate change because
00:27:32
Speaker
Within archaeology as a sector, like climate change is talked about quite a lot. There are some groups that kind of like focus on it. there I know for many of the associations, there's kind of like impact assessments going on and everything, but I think in the general... general population, there's there's no there's a kind of disconnect I find sometimes between what people feel heritage and history is about and what what people are you know what the profession or even community groups are doing. And what I really liked when I was reading about the work you do and is coming back to what you're saying about your drive to kind of find out about things that are you're told are impossible.
00:28:18
Speaker
you know finding those oft forgotten voices is actually what like modern archaeology really is because for so long history has been about you know kings and royalty and large battles and everything but Nowadays, archaeologists are trying to find the small pieces of human daily life, you know, the the people who lived alongside all these warriors, these kings, these queens, these like very important people.
00:28:53
Speaker
Like, how can we find more about the people who live daily? So for me, there's that, you know, that connection of finding the people who don't usually get talked about, or the stories that don't usually get talked about, and the way that we actually practice archaeology and trying to dig up the stories that are not really spoken about properly. Did you see that connection when I speak about it?
00:29:17
Speaker
I do, yeah. And I think you you make so many so many great points I'd love to i love to respond to. please I totally agree that in in many ways, yeah, you know, history is is told by, you know, the the victors of war. And then, you know, like you say, the the sort of the sort of kings and the queens and nobility and the about the lives of the everyday people like like us, you know, like all of us sort of get get lost in that sort of telling, that sort of vein of telling a story. and And in many ways, you know, again, when you in in May Sinek and the ahf the Afghan people in this Yemen project, these Yemeni people that live in the areas, like they're the ones that really have that that connection to the past, right? In some way, telling their story and connecting it to the story in the past, I think is is much more
00:30:08
Speaker
telling about the the the area and the region, then you know again, this sort of this sort of bullet point of of you know of war and and politics and things like that, this sort of everyday story and the indigenous people's connection to that history right and the way the history sort of continues. That's something that's also amazing in Yemen is you have, you know for example, like ah the mud brick architecture that's really incredible. right you have it It's is's sort of this passed on tradition that that, you know, ah modern Yemeni people actually have this kind of incredible connection to, you know, thousands of years of of history in this past on heritage. The other thing that i you said that I think is really great is, you know, yeah especially in the West, but especially in the United States, there is this disconnect now between, or almost this push to be more insular, right? Like,
00:31:03
Speaker
You know, we're Americans. We only care about what's happening in America. This is a far away story. It's Afghanistan. It's Yemen. We have our own problems. You know, we don't want to we no longer care about the rest of the world. There is this sort of this way of thinking now that's that's very prevalent in especially in the United States and.
00:31:22
Speaker
in In both films, in the Maysynak film and the the the new Yemen project, you know I don't want to just sort of accept that there are these audiences that are lost to us. you
Challenges in Filmmaking for Western Audiences
00:31:33
Speaker
know I want to you know tell stories to the the the widest possible audience. And as you as you mentioned, you know connecting to people on an emotional level, on a personal, smaller human level, in you know in the saving Maysynak story, it's Khadir, the Afghan archaeologist who you know, it's through his emotion and his love of his own country's heritage that I hope is sort of infectious and that audiences when they watch can feel, you know, empathy and a connection with him. And it's through through that feel, a connection to to Afghanistan and see their own story in a way in, you know, reflected in, could you know, in Qadir's story. And it's something I'm trying with the the Yemen Project too to, you know, again,
00:32:18
Speaker
these smaller personal stories of of devotion to cultural heritage, almost as these kind of windows for people in you know other countries like the United States to find common themes and connect emotionally. And I think documentary as ah as a visual medium, as a storytelling medium, you know I'm biased, but I believe it it has the strongest potential to do that, to connect you know, on an emotional level with an audience so that through feeling something, you know, hopefully they come to care about these stories. But again, you know, in ah in a bigger sense, a lot of the world is is very sadly turning away from.
00:33:02
Speaker
definitely And in the spirit of taking a step back, since you know that's what we we're kind of we're in that vibe right now, I think it's really important for us to also think about, when you're saying about the widest audience possible, I'm kind of interested in At the time, the reception to the film, Saving Mezzanac in Afghanistan, and whether, you know, as an American coming to these countries, having a, you know, your kind of background is filming for, or in your mind, your experience of documentary films is
00:33:37
Speaker
you know Western, like is there something that you do to kind of translate it to a broader audience that's different from if you made a documentary purely with an American or a Western audience in mind?
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, that that that's a great question. And it's kind it's complicated. I think there's but one, you know and which is everything is complicated, I guess. And I certainly make you know make mistakes. So I will i will not say i I've perfected some method method to to do this. I certainly haven't. But I think one one thing, again, that I think I sort of alluded to this before, you know there's a there's There's a push to reach American audiences by like ah placing an American in an important part of the story. Right. And that's something I i really hate and I'm really against. So in saving me, sinac I am not a character. Like it's not it's not my story of coming to Afghanistan and and meeting people. Right. But I think there is this push, especially in the United States, to like have American you know white male American as the central character. Right. so And
00:34:50
Speaker
And it's through their perspective that you reach the American audience. And i I really, you know, like I said, I hate that and try to push back against that. So I i still want to reach an American audience. But as you say, because.
00:35:05
Speaker
You know, I don't want to make this as much as I can. You know, everything is subjective, of course, but as much as I can, I don't want to make this like the the white male American story. I want to try to tap in and give voice to right local people. And as much as I can, I want the films to be their story. Right. So that means I really have to collaborate with local people, with local producers. And for both films, I'm i'm working with a a local producer to really make sure I do that justice. And again, you know, not only is there not white male American main subject, but I want to make sure like like culturally, this is sort of ah
00:35:50
Speaker
an accurate representation of ah their story, right? Of the the Afghan person or Yemeni person. you know with With that said, that's that is not a format. I think that is easily digestible for a Western audience, right? Because you know you have to read subtitles. you know it's It is a person that's culturally different than you. So there is some kind of heavy lifting, I guess, getting getting this to an audience. But that is That's been my goal too to highlight these these Indigenous voices and to really, as much as I can, try to make it their story and then try to get that story to the widest possible audience I can. and
00:36:34
Speaker
it's it's It's been difficult, but you know there's there's like you said, there's been been some success with the with Saving Me Sinek of trying to do just that. And so the the new film, has it got a title yet or is it all tentative? And when would we expect to be seeing that new film that you've come got currently in production?
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah, so it is it is the the tentative title is the very tentative title is saving the cultural heritage of Yemen. And I'm i'm looking at many different cities so far. So it's its it will probably be, again, a feature length film, but where we're sort of traveling to different locations, you know, highlighting different voices from you know, Houthi-controlled areas in the north, like Sanya, which is is one of the the longest inhabited, you know, cities in the world, to Marib that has this incredible Queen of Sheba history, and these sort of incredible temples devoted to to her, to cities like Taz that are kind of caught in the middle, that are split literally split down the center of the city, but you know, where the Civil War is like happening right in the middle. So you have castles that have been part partially bombed and libraries that have been that have been firebombed. And you have people kind of caught in the crosshairs doing heritage work. i I'm, you know, hoping that the the film will be completed next year in 2025.
Advice for Aspiring Documentary Filmmakers
00:38:00
Speaker
But it's a
00:38:02
Speaker
but you know Because I'm attracted to difficult stories that have lots of difficult aspects to them, it's it's ah it's been a slow process, but one that I'm i'm devoted to. no it's and and it's It's very worthwhile. you know i I grew up in Northern Ireland post the Good Friday Agreement, which was the kind of market ceasefire agreement.
00:38:23
Speaker
sure there. and you know even Even with that, I only realised when I moved to Scotland that a lot of my childhood was very much informed by the Troubles, even in peacetime. Growing up in a country that's kind of like just post-conflict, it makes me feel a connection somewhat to people undergoing that because even though I don't understand necessarily the ins and outs of these kind of situations, I think there is this kind of sense of anxiety or fear or concern you know that I think I i understand the draw that you have. you know i
00:39:09
Speaker
you know, maybe in a different life, i I would be doing something the same, you know, because I think these stories that are, you know, the difficult ones, I think that's all the more reason for them to be platformed, because at the end of the day, you know,
00:39:28
Speaker
life overall, without getting too philosophical about this, is it is difficult, you know, and we can kind of like sometimes sit in our wee, our wee bubbles and, you know, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that somebody needs to go out and experience conflict, but we you need to always be ready to take like a trip out of our comfort zone to kind of understand and empathize more with people.
00:39:55
Speaker
So, just kind of finally, you know, I know that you are currently a professor, is it? Yes. Middle. Middle. Yeah. Northwestern. And what advice do you give to students who are kind of trying to pursue a similar kind of vein of documentary that that you've done? what What is it that you impart? What wisdom? You know, not not wanting your whole syllabus, don't worry, i send the check in the mail. ah but like what's the kind of What advice do you give to people who are wanting to take on that challenge?
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I kind of think, you know, I have, I'd love to kind of respond to your last point. I think it's related to, I figure related food i think totally related to this advice I would give students. I think this idea of, you know, there are these these difficult stories like we've been talking about that are that are out in the world. And especially in in my sort of corner of the profession in journalism, you know, I would argue you can't be told like you know this story is too difficult, so don't don't tell it. right like You you can you sort of can't tell a journalist, you know cover this easy story and don't cover this other story because you know there there are too many barriers to telling the story. like I mean, imagine if journalists accepted that, you know we would have this you know sort of teeny tiny perspective on what's happening because
00:41:21
Speaker
There's so many you know difficult stories that you know that the that the world needs to that the world needs to know about and I think that's that's it that's advice I would give to students that you know this is this is our job to not turn away from these difficult stories that you know you have. And we've been talking about these you know people in Afghanistan, people in Yemen that are you know sort of suffering from this sort of oppression or from war and are doing this kind of incredible heroic work that it's really our job to highlight. you know I really try to impress upon students or or or teach my students that
00:42:01
Speaker
you know Often, the first the first step in in in trying to tell a story is getting a door sort of slammed in your face and having people say, you know, no, you can't you can't do this. and And you have to persevere sort of beyond that. and you know There may be many, many more doors that are slammed in your face, but you have to you have to persevere.
00:42:21
Speaker
and it's really you know, these these human stories from from our own backyards or from across the globe that it's it's worth all of this these sort of difficult aspects you know in order to tell these incredible stories. So it's not easy, but I think the the rewards of doing this work are are pretty great and being able to to tell these stories and connect with these incredible people. it's pretty
Where to Watch and Connect with Brent
00:42:48
Speaker
you know It's pretty amazing. Definitely. And if people are interested in either watching Saving Mes Inac or seeing any of the work that you've done, where's the best way to kind of get more information on that?
00:43:02
Speaker
Yes, good question. So, Googling me, Googling coogling my name will bring up my my university page where it has my contact information on it. But for SavingMaysynac, savingmaysynac.com is a great place to to start. And there there are many ways, you know, in pretty much any any any ways just to stream the film that exists out there. You can stream SavingMaysynac, and you can also connect me connect with me through that website as well. Great. Thank you very, very much for your time today, Brent. Great. Thank you. This has been really wonderful. Thank you so
00:44:09
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.