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#23 AI Blockchain Security with the company that exposed FTX
56 Plays6 months ago
Christian is the Head of Partnerships at Anchain, a Web3 security firm that gained notoriety for exposing FTX. Anchain aims to minimize the impact of security breaches and improve the reaction time across the industry.
What is Anchain?
Anchain offers a comprehensive suite of tools designed to improve the security of Web3 ecosystems. These tools enable real-time monitoring and risk assessment, essential for identifying and mitigating potential threats before they escalate into major security breaches.
One of the unique aspects of Anchain is that they use AI-driven analytics that analyse transactions to detect any suspicious activities. By leveraging machine learning models, the company effectively flags high-risk transactions and entities. This is being used for preventing financial crimes and ensuring compliance with regulatory standards, thereby reinforcing the security infrastructure of digital assets.
Notable Work
Anchain is helping keep crypto safe by collaborating with various governmental and law enforcement agencies. These partnerships help expose and identify bad actors in the space such as the Lazarous group - the infamous North Korean hacker organisation responsible for the Harmony hack.
It was Anchain that confirmed the identity of the attackers, and provided valuable information to law enforcement agencies.
According to Christian, Anchain was also the ones to expose FTX. After carrying out on-chain analysis, the team at Anchain discovered suspicious financial activity taking place between Alameda Research and FTX. The information was soon sent to Bloomberg, who broke the news soon after. This prompted the Twitter fight between CZ and SBF - which eventually led to SBF answering for the financial crimes that he had comitted.
This industry needs all the help it can get to discourage attackers and minimise damages, and Anchain are doing some great work on this.
This podcast is fueled by Aesir, the smartest crypto trading bot platform on the market. Sign up and use code AESIRPOT20 at checkout for 20% OFF your subscription.
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Transcript
Accident Infinity Hack: A Security Wake-Up Call
00:00:00
Speaker
When it came to the Accident Infinity hack, it took the team one week to even find out that they were missing $700 million. dollars Wow. That's a pretty big oversight, i I'd say. It is. um yes I mean, one week to to to ah to realize that is, personally, I think that's a big problem. Yeah. And if we want to learn the space, we can't we can't have record breaking years of hacking events year after year.
Introducing 'Proof of Talk' Podcast
00:00:34
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Proof of Talk, the cryptocurrency podcast where we invite leaders and builders into the space to come on and talk about their experience in the industry, as well as the projects and products that they've been building. My name is Andre and I've been in the cryptocurrency space since 2017. I've also helped co-found algorithmic crypto trading platform ACIR that enables users to quickly and easily automate their trades while managing the risk. I'm here today with Christian, who is the head of partnerships at Unchained.ai.
Mining Pool Services and Financial Solutions
00:01:01
Speaker
Good day, man. Doing well. thanks Thanks for having me.
00:01:05
Speaker
so Thanks for coming on. I was talking to um this guy that's working for a mining company a few a few episodes ago and they're providing like the pool to mine. They're also connecting, you know they they have a pool and they also have other services around that. They have some financial services that I thought are really interesting because obviously the halving is going to have a big impact on the miners. Their their rewards are going to halve, so it's going to become a lot more expensive to mine. and the profit margins, whatever they may be now, they could be completely gone. So they offer a way for miners to buy their hash rate um rewards in advance, almost as a hedge to what to to the rewards that are going
Cloud Mining Evolution and Challenges
00:01:52
Speaker
to halve. So you could you could buy now and lock in a certain reward not to lose when they um when the halving happens, which I thought was pretty interesting.
00:02:02
Speaker
ah I used to use a service like that back in the day, just I think it was called like cloud mining. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. i Yeah. It's super interesting, interested to sort of listen back to your podcast and, you know, learn more about what this company's doing for sure.
The Profitability of Bitcoin Mining
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, well, I was trying to, I mean, not trying, but I was considering getting into mining a few years back and I felt like I was pretty late to the game. I could never make the numbers work and I thought, well, a GPU just doesn't make sense. It's all about getting ASICs miners, but then ASICs, you could, yeah, you could mine with one ASIC and you could make, I don't know, 30, $50 a month if you wanted to. But if you really want to just, you know, I feel like it's just not worth the hassle unless you buy, I don't know, 50 ASICs. Like you invest in that and then you start big.
00:02:52
Speaker
We're having a cheap energy source. so Yeah, exactly. So it's harder to come by, especially since and electricity prices have been skyrocketing across the whole of Europe. I'm not sure if in the States it has been similar, but in in in the UK and in the rest of Europe, electricity prices have significantly increased. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, even just like over the weekend, right? Like, since, you know, again, these global conflicts continue. Yeah. Gas
The Future of Bitcoin Mining Companies
00:03:21
Speaker
prices are just going up, energy cost goes up. Yeah, it creates a lot of instability. And that's another thing that I'm like super excited about when it comes to just Bitcoin miners in general. um As you mentioned, right there. It's just going to get more expensive for them to be profitable due to the supply shock.
00:03:41
Speaker
um you know So I strongly believe that there's going to be some Bitcoin mining companies that don't survive this having. yeah one But then those that do succeed, I'm excited to see what the innovation lies. I've been seeing companies like Bitdear that are changing some sort of strategy of like how they're mining, how they're sort of creating efficiencies across like their energy caused by, I believe they're the ones that are putting like the Bitcoin miners within this thing called like liquid cooling. Right. right yeah Because it doesn't conduct conduct electricity, so you could safely submerge it if you wanted to. Yeah. Exactly. So that that's what I'm super excited about, just to see the innovation that comes out of this space.
Bitcoin Halving and Transaction Fees
00:04:27
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's going to be pretty cool. I think there's also, we're going to see some changes in the in the actual um transaction fees. They tend to increase when that happens. And ah I'm not sure whether because that's algorithmically ah you know ah coded in or whether validators decide to, okay, guys, in order to like keep you know validating, we need to increase the um the fees, which would make
Personal Crypto Journeys and Discoveries
00:04:49
Speaker
sense. Right. So how did you get into crypto? ah Just like everyone else, listen, well, I hope that many people got into crypto by being on Twitter. um But I mean, the first time the first time I heard about crypto was specifically Bitcoin. ah One of my friends was a big CSGO player and there you know and I was still in school and they were making money by playing CSGO, earning skins, selling the skins for Bitcoin. Oh, wow.
00:05:24
Speaker
and so That's the first time that I ever heard of it. um When I actually like went deep into the space and started you know just aping in and and becoming a crypto maximalist was ah one of my first jobs out of college was working for a VC firm. Our specific thesis was artificial intelligence. Uh, so my, and, and we're backed by Qualcomm, uh, literally the Qualcomm campus. So a lot of the research that we we're doing was around, uh, hardware, um, or, you know, how would the software increase hardware capabilities? And right. So maximizing, maximizing hardware efficiency when using machine learning models. Exactly. Okay. Right. Um, or just all algorithmic models in general.
00:06:16
Speaker
Right. So as I'm doing my research as an analyst, I came across this website, um which in retrospect, I believe it was actually like cloud mining, where basically, you know, you buy into this this website, and then they would yield but Bitcoin for you. um yeah So I was super interested by just the website design in general. um So I'm like, okay, what is this? ah Turns out it was Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining. Due to sort of like my experience dealing with hardware, I started diving deep into like, in just Bitcoin mining machines and shell 256 as the algorithm that powered Bitcoin.
00:06:54
Speaker
right You know, so that's really where I dove in, right? Just like the algorithm algorithm that powers Bitcoin. And then everything they're in after is sort of history, right? Learning about, you know, the protocol, the network, reading the white paper. one That's cool, man. that's I remember doing but a similar thing. like I was reading the white paper and then reading about ah the encryption algorithm and what it does and why we need... you know all And all the intricacies of of the Bitcoin algorithm itself, like the difficulty rate and the hash rate and then how the difficulty adjusts. And and you kind of you go you'res you're very likely to go down a rabbit hole of of all of these things. And I felt like once I understood Bitcoin,
00:07:39
Speaker
And then i started like Altcoin started happening and started coming out and Ethereum started becoming Ethereum. It's like, whoa, this is this is way over what I expected that we could do with digital currency. And I always feel like I got into crypto twice. I got once when I was actually mining on a GPU. I was mining Bitcoin on a GPU a while ago, I think maybe in 2014, 2013. And then I lost that Bitcoin forever and I forgot about it and I i couldn't recover it. And then I got back into crypto in 2017 and I stuck with it. um So yeah, I feel a lot of people have had that experience where they kind of go in once, something happens, they lose their backs, they forget about it, they come and revisit sometime later.
Embracing the Crypto Lifestyle
00:08:22
Speaker
Right. and Unfortunately, I've stuck to it since since I learned about it.
00:08:27
Speaker
um Yeah. And, you know, it's sort of something that I like to believe I eat sleep and talk about crypto 24 seven, right? it' Sort of embedded into my lifestyle now. Yeah, that's cool bro. I don't have that stereotype. No, that's cool. I try not to talk to a lot of people about, well, apart from my podcast really, not talk to people about
Blockchain Hype vs. Understanding
00:08:54
Speaker
crypto a lot. just i just You know how people just tend to kind of have a very ah kind of skeptical look? ah like They tend to look weird at you if you're telling them, ah I'm into crypto, I'm investing in crypto. I think like blockchain technology is the future. like It feels like
00:09:10
Speaker
it like The hype is out there in the mainstream, but the understanding of blockchain technology and its use cases is still very much far away.
AI and Blockchain Thesis
00:09:18
Speaker
And that kind of gives a really good space you know for for a conversation like this and sport for a space like this to highlight the products that are being built on top of this. you know Products like Unchained, for instance, like it's not I'm sure it's something that's incredibly useful for the industry itself, but a lot of people on the outside might not even like It'd be like, so what is this? What does it do? Why do we need you know AI on on top of ah of a blockchain? um But it's interesting you've you've done your thesis on AI and then started working within crypto and AI. I feel that that's kind of a very nice mix of both of these things, which you're passionate about. um And I'm guessing shortly after you started working for Unchained. Yeah, sorry. What was that? I totally missed it.
00:10:05
Speaker
No, that's cool, man. So I was just saying, ah ah once you've done your research and your thesis, you you moved on to Unchained? No. um So ah from that sort of VC experience, um I then and went to work for Salesforce.
Salesforce and Emerging Technologies
00:10:23
Speaker
I see. So at Salesforce, I actually worked. doing BD and growth stuff, right? okay i just think um So that was half of my role. But the other half was just due to my you know high interest in in AI and emerging technologies, I had the opportunity to work under the Futures Lab department. Futures Lab, when you can think of this as like their innovation department or their ex department where secret projects go on. um
00:10:51
Speaker
And part of my work there was create proof of concepts for the year 2030, present this to the chief future officer who I reported directly. And then all of this information would then go to the CEO and Salesforce Ventures so that they can invest with a 10 year roadmap. <unk> And when I sort of, you know, basically they, you know, put out the cards on the table and say, these are all going to be the technologies that we believe based off of our research that are going to be pivotal or structural technology by 2030.
Blockchain's Role in Future Tech Stacks
00:11:28
Speaker
The technology that was left out was blockchain. half I took it upon myself of challenging the team and saying, hey, um you know, I strongly believe blockchain is going to be emerged
00:11:41
Speaker
and you know and intertwined with with AI, with 5G, with IoT. In fact, I personally believed that it was going to be part of that layer of the tech stack, um where all of these technologies would actually come together and synchronize. So that's sort of like what I did and was presenting on. you know, how blockchain technology was going to revolutionize the use cases of autonomous vehicles of IoT, create efficiencies across supply chains.
Surviving and Thriving in Crypto Market Crashes
00:12:13
Speaker
yeah So that's what I did at Salesforce. From then from Salesforce, I went to go work for an AI company, ah specifically an automation company. And
00:12:25
Speaker
I worked there for two and a half years, but throughout those two and a half years, again, I challenged the executive team. Why aren't we selling into Web3 companies? Why aren't we? Because we were selling to like traditional Web2 companies, Broadcom, Visa, Workday, etc. And I saw a huge opportunity for Web3 to automate Web3 processes and so on and so forth. So that's sort of like what I you know, led forward for two and a half years, then ah FTX happened, you know, just the crypto crash happened through AC, Celsius, Voyager, all these companies, down huge market crash, as we all know. ah And I saw that as a huge opportunity to double down and go full time into up three.
00:13:14
Speaker
um It was the riskiest time to go into a three because everything they wish we was. hundred percent And yeah, they're not ancient ever since. And, you know, now we're we're back into a pool market. so I'm really excited about um our future here. Yeah,
Unchained.ai's Web3 Security Solutions
00:13:30
Speaker
no, that's fantastic. And I guess it's, in a way, it's really good that you you went into crypto at that time because out of the companies that still survived, you know that if they made it through a bear market, they're going to make it through a bull market and actually really fly. So it's, it you know yeah, that's very good. um So do you want to give a brief overview of Unchained.ai, what the vision of the product is, what some of the features are, and what what's its scope and role within the blockchain industry?
00:13:59
Speaker
Yep, definitely. um So we're one of the leading Web3 security and with and risk management companies. um Essentially, we have a product suite that covers sort of security and how to secure smart contracts, how to secure essentially your ecosystem by having tabs onto smart contracts, right? right so um doing the whole smart contract audit, but then a a layer of having monitoring, real-time monitoring solutions ah to that of every single smart contract event. Specific function happens when know keys are switched, um when you know liquidity is added, so on and so forth. So that's one of the aspects that we do from a security standpoint. And then as well as understanding which addresses are entering your east coast system.
00:14:52
Speaker
Uh, if, you know, most apps today don't do KYC due to the nature of decentralization. Right. So understanding who is behind an address, assuming that we have data on that, if not, uh, providing a risk score to the address or the transaction. Hey, this transaction might be risky. This individual might be risky. Um, the way I like an AML, essentially. Yep, exactly. Um, that's exactly the solution that we're offering. Uh, you know, an AML solution, KYT, KYW, know your transaction, know you all. That's sort of, you know, on that hot topic of transition a bit to risk risk management. How do you manage your risk as a Web3 entity? ah So we have you know solutions around that. um
00:15:40
Speaker
blockchain investigation, compliance solutions, you know smart contracts, risk and evaluation ah solutions, and so on. um So that's sort of what we do. Some interesting things is as a because of our tooling and our investigation, we have a lot of intelligence across the Web3 sector. Um, so, uh, we're one of, or the first one actually, um, you know, according to Bloomberg, uh, to bring, um, uh, forward the intelligence to Bloomberg to whistleblower on FTX and Alameda. Oh, wow. Okay. We basically analyzed their on-chain activity and noticed that there was, uh,
00:16:28
Speaker
you know, activity between those two firms, you know, exchanging, right? so So we brought sort of this information forward to Bloomberg. Bloomberg put out, I think, Cointelegraph picked it up. ZZ and SPF went at it on Twitter and then the rest of his his history. So was it something that you were doing as a public good or was it where you're doing it as a bit of research for for someone or were you guys paid to do that or did you just choose to do it? um So ah the nature of our work is blockchain intelligence. So right um if you're familiar with Chainalysis, I think there's a household name at this point.
00:17:07
Speaker
um you know we're We're next generation solutions to that of chain analysis due to our AI capabilities and our expertise when it comes to smart contract analytics. um So we work with a lot of different law enforcement agencies and governments, so part of our our work is you know you know analyze the biggest players and make sure you're having tabs on them. right But when Bloomberg reached out to us and said, hey, you know, we believe that there's something fishy here, you know, do you mind doing the due diligence? That's when we went ahead and, you know, brought forward the um the findings that we did.
00:17:44
Speaker
Right. That makes sense. Okay. so And that's interesting. you've You've said that you work with regulators in the US government and you know potentially other agencies too, because I was looking on your website and I saw in your SOC solution that trusted partners, and the US government was listed as one of the trusted partners. um If you don't mind talking about what kind of relationship you guys have with the government or what kind of ah agencies you work with and what kind of reporting you do from the chain, I feel that would be super relevant for people in the space. Yep, definitely. um You know, and there's no secret, right? We have Forbes article out there disclosing a lot of the work that we're doing. um So, you know, we work with
00:18:29
Speaker
essentially all agencies that have an involvement in our financial ah space, right? So the SEC, the IRS, you know, FinCEN, right? So anyone that sort of manages overseas, some sort of financial movement within ah the US, you know, these are our clients. and And then we also work with law enforcement agencies. um You know, for example, if you get hacked today, um out of your NFTs, out of your crypto, or if you get scammed, right? Fall in love with someone on Tinder, it turns out to be a scammer. Next thing you know, you sent them you know your life savings, you know where do you go, right? um And if we're trying to mature this space and believe that crypto is the future of money, ah you know then these agencies must be equipped to be able to solve the problems of
00:19:22
Speaker
of what the citizens are facing today, right? right Due to to their adoption of this technology.
Crypto and Money Laundering Misconceptions
00:19:29
Speaker
so So we work across all of these different agencies, with these different agencies in terms of like crypto recovery, ah intelligence, you know, trying to and uncover who these scammers are, trying to see which exchanges they're using to liquidate funds. It's no secret today that if you wanted to launder funds, you're not going to do it on crypto where everything's transparent. transparent you're gonna do it with with cash because there's no way to track cash. yeah right So that's sort of like the the misconception here that a lot of you know Congress people, at least in the US s have. um So our part of our solution is trying to find those liquidation points after a specific transaction. um And then we're using AI to sort of streamline um the investigation of, you know,
00:20:16
Speaker
Let's say, for example, this NFT has a unique ID. We can follow that NFT across wherever it moves, right? With currencies, because they're fungible, it's a little bit different, um but that's essentially how we're using AI. But again, that's how we're working with government agencies. you know For example, when when the Harmony hack happened, ah happened ah you know we were called on or hired by some of these law and through letter agencies to figure out you know, who it was, what happened.
00:20:49
Speaker
you know We're able to uncover its Lazarus Group, its the North Korean hacker group. right And our goal is try to chase that those funds and and recover them before they move to offshore exchanges or exchanges outside of US jurisdictions to where we don't really have a
Lazarus Group and Web3 Vulnerabilities
00:21:06
Speaker
save. We were to ask a country or an entity within a specific country of like, hey, you know return those funds. right So that's sort of the work that that we're doing with our government partners. That's cool. I remember writing about the Harmony hack when it happened and like the word was out, but it was just a rumor at that point that it was circulating on Twitter that ra Lazarus Group is behind it. um So it's cool to hear that it was eventually confirmed that it was indeed the Lazarus Group that that did it. Yeah. i mean I mean, the group is notorious yeah in terms of attacking the crypto ecosystem and and funding their agendas.
00:21:46
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And I personally, you know, based off of my research, I like to share with people of like, the, the entities that are most at risk are what I would like to consider a mom and pop shop. But in the case, so your new sort of business that started by developers in college that just raised a million dollars or half a million dollars from investors, you know, they're the most vulnerable to these hacking events. Um, and these are sort of the entities that this group is usually attacking him because less noise is done when they do sort of, uh, you know, have these, these entities. Whereas if they hack a really big entity, then all eyes are on them. Um, you know, and.
00:22:29
Speaker
And you have more people trying to recover those funds. Yeah. There are also very different risks when you, when you think about coding or programming, um, in web three, then, you know, traditional programming, like the fact that the technology is so new. There have been vulnerabilities in the code base itself. There have been vulnerabilities in the programming language vulnerabilities in cross-chain bridges and just so many things that could, could trip you up. So. I think, I think it's definitely like a great thing to have the kind of tool or solution to act as a safety net for these, I could call them mom and pop shop. Right. right But when when it comes to the government, so you were saying before that you were, you guys were hired to conduct this investigation. So I'm guessing the nature of your work with yeah agencies in general is you're being, you're being allocated this work rather than you providing them the software as a sort of software as a service kind of.
00:23:25
Speaker
solution with them, is that right? Uh, well, both, both, uh, and so we provide the software. Um, and then we train agents or individuals, points officers, um, even crypto sluts, right? So if you ever go on Twitter and see like a specific profile that their job is just Zach XBT. Yep. Exactly. Um, so we have, we have those people as well that they're, um, using our products. Um, When it comes to like way more sophisticated cases, when you start seeing funds get laundered through a DAP or through a DEX and then it gets bridged to a different chain, that's when we're called um to to take on those investigations just because of the complexity of you know of the transactions that are that are
Web3 Security Maturity and Hacks
00:24:12
Speaker
taking place. And you know the person on the other end that's hacking is a lot more sophisticated.
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, that that makes sense. So apart from the event with Harmony, have have you do you know of any other cases where the Lazarus Group or North Korea were involved in crypto? I know there's many, but I don't know exactly which ones they've been specifically attributed to North Korea. um Even outside of crypto, they just don't like to pay bills. like There's so many services that they hire from the third like third parties, including building companies and all that. They never pay the bills. It's crazy. I mean, there's there's there's many. yeah Right. One of one of the biggest ones was actually infinity. Right. Right. The Ronin bridge hack. And in fact, that's actually why we, we build our latest innovation, which is ah that security resolution. Because there's a lack of immaturity in the web three space when it comes to security. um There's this belief that, you know, blockchain is immutable, therefore it is secure.
00:25:14
Speaker
And what's not secure, it's the front end. What's not secure is ah you know different sort of functions within a contract that weren't sort of programmed correctly, that they might still have like, you know, submissive variables or the variables that they used for the function are are vulnerable or are and easily attack vector. yeah It can also be the bridges, right? So any sort of Oracle or integration that might be connected to the contract can be vulnerable.
00:25:47
Speaker
um So, um I mean, long story short, right, when it came to the Accident Infinity hack, it took the team one week to even find out that they were missing $700 million. dollars Wow. That's a pretty big oversight, i I'd say. It is. um yes I mean, one week to two to ah to realize that is, personally, I think that's a big problem. Yeah. And if we want to learn the space, we can't we can't have record breaking years of hacking events year after year. um
00:26:19
Speaker
So ah it took the team one week to figure it out, and then it took them a month to even patch the vulnerability. So the vulnerability was still open for a whole month. Assuming there were any funds left, they were still you know open to the public for for a month. um And when we did research across all hacking events, including that of Harmony and many others, so we noticed that there's there's around that one week um standard in Web3 to realize that hacks are happening or to even announce that a hack has happened. So in the regular Web2 space, the the average time to detect um is five hours. So our question is, how can we sort of bring it to that sort of standard right and mature the Web3 space from a security standpoint to that standard? um So you know our sort of solution is,
00:27:18
Speaker
Can we set up rules and logic for a system that is listening to every single function that is of importance? And if that function is called, notify the team immediately. ah And then this's like then the security team or the IT team can then respond to it. um So that's essentially what we built. um And it's sort of you know our solution of trying to bring that average down to detect a hack um to a smaller timeframe than a week. A week is yeah like and unacceptable. it's It's unacceptable. And by that time, the money has been laundered like 20 times over. It's so hard to follow the trail at that point.
00:28:01
Speaker
like Like you said before, it's not like it's you're not following an NFT, which you know exactly where it goes. You're following an amount and that amount splits and changes and you got to take out the gas fees and you got to figure out where the... the like and And if you're taking it through a mixer or like you know coin anonymizer or whatever, it's very hard to keep track of. Actually, do do you Are you guys able to keep track of the of the balances and the coins stolen if they're being put through a mixer? ah So we do do that type of work. That work is very complex. yeah it takes It takes a team of ah you know analysts to try to identify like you know if,
00:28:45
Speaker
if you know as an example, if $5 enter tornado cash, where did $5 come out of? and and What wallet just has $5 now? And then we have to go and analyze the ledger, um look at the specific timeframe, understand the time that it takes from a transaction to go through tornado cash and ah populated, you know, the funds in a different wallet. ah It is sort of work that we've done in the past. It's definitely work that we do not like to do. ah yeah yeah <unk>s because if you're a If you're a relatively capable ah hacker, you you wouldn't put $5 through and get $5 out. You'd put $5 in and get 30p here, 20p there, $1 there, another dollar there. It would be split across 50 wallets or something. Right. Exactly. It's it's difficult, right? ah And I think this is why some governments understand the
00:29:40
Speaker
the sophistication of, you know, of tornado cache or these mixers. um And, you know, that's why they're now sanctioned because of that nature of we can't figure out, you know, where funds go after they get laundered through here.
Salesforce's Blockchain Ventures
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah. and And you know what? I get it from ah from a government perspective. It is a problem, though I don't agree with sentencing the guy for life or coding it. He's been sentenced for just writing code. Right. Not in an illegal way. like he did what any Every line of that code, you break it down.
00:30:15
Speaker
He didn't try to exploit any system or getting anywhere or do anything, you know, against, against the law. Yet he got, yeah, I think it was life sentence. Right. Yeah. And we have a few of those, right? Of coders, products, and now having serving life sentences, which is, you know. Yeah. crazy It's a political debate for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I also noticed on the on the same page where you had listed it like the US s government, you also had listed Salesforce, which is pretty interesting because you said you you were working, you worked at Salesforce before. and Was that connection made because of your experience at Salesforce? Unfortunately, it wasn't, even though I have loved to take a lot of pride in that. um It was prior to me joining, right but
00:31:12
Speaker
I do, I do strongly want to believe that the Salesforce initiative was started because of me, um which was, you know, accepting a blockchain solution. And it came out of the same lab where I was discussing blockchain when no one else was. That's cool. So yeah, it's, uh, Salesforce is what their initiative, uh, or their what through cloud. Um, I, you know, the goal of, of it was to, create sort of a tokenized loyalty program, you know, with the end clients of Salesforce's clients. So one of the the companies was like Scotch and Soda, which is a fashion brand. um And they wanted to create a loyalty solution, right? You buy the NFT, you get access to
00:32:03
Speaker
You know, our pop up events, specific discounts, you're the first one to be notified of a specific new merch line or drop. So that's essentially what it was. And I say what it was, because I'm not quite sure if it's still live. I think they've toned down their their web 3. sort of development there. ah But what we did was we did two things. One of them was authored they some of their smart contracts. So we actually wrote them. And the second one was we audited the ones that we didn't write. So yeah, that's sort of our role um you know at Salesforce. And we also do that across many different protocols, which is where you know the synergies came to be.
00:32:51
Speaker
Right. That's cool. So Salesforce were was trying to get into the web3 space with this reward system. They just decided not to follow through at the end. i not I'm not quite sure if it like if you're a Salesforce customer, if you can still reach out and say, hey, yeah yeah I'd like the solution. I just know that they haven't sort of done more, right? It's it's not sort of a ah continuous development program that they have. Right. And out of curiosity, when when was when did this happen? Did it happen around the peak bull run period? There's so many companies that just... Yeah, that is funny though. It's funny that they would think of joining in 2021 or something, but everything's just crazy hyped. Right. ah I think they...
00:33:36
Speaker
If I'm not mistaken, they launched it like right after the downturn. right and it Took them a few months to make the decision and then eventually it followed through. but right And I think NFTs at the time didn't fall as fast as the crypto market did. I think there was still like some hype around NFTs. if I'm ever researching well. yeah i I remember being at NFT New York City when Celsius just stopped withdrawals. And that sort of was starting the cascade of the down cycle or or the bear market.
00:34:14
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I remember similar things. I think NFTs just kept dropping in value, but on a relatively slow at a relativelyative slow pace compared to cryptocurrency. It was yeah was a while, right? So did do you expect then Salesforce to join Web3 space again at the peak of this bull run? or yeah I mean, I think every enterprise company is going to be late again. Yeah. um It's funny how it happens. Right. ah maybe Maybe they start adopting sort of like the Bitcoin strategy, which is, you know, have Bitcoin in your balance sheet. Yeah. But from a web through initiative. Yeah, I think like all of these enterprises are going to be late. Once again, they're going to chase chase the hype, but they're going to allow like the hype to prove itself first. Right. So we're going to see, you know,
00:35:11
Speaker
the degens building and all these like small startups are just web two companies building and then eventually we'll see another adoption of these enterprises. Oh yeah and personally I don't mind the bear market. I feel like it's it's a very kind of it's a very good time to build stuff or to connect on the tech side and you know kind of talk about what cryptocurrency can do, what not not know what the price is. you know and And you can see that even on um if you look at subreddits like cryptocurrency, like most most of the time the the discussion is around the price or around some piece of news that comes out that day. There's very little technical discussion, very little, hey, this is what people are building now in the crypto space.
00:35:59
Speaker
which I feel like it's lacking. It's lacking severely, especially in a community as big as that. um I meant to say that's why that's why Farcaster is really good. That's kind of the the ethos there. People don't talk about the price as much as they do about a technology. And it's a really fascinating piece of, of like of technology itself.
Farcaster and Community Growth
00:36:20
Speaker
The fact that it uses Web3 and blockchain to store, I think they're hashed messages. I think the information is private and you get ah a decryption key. If you get a client and you run a FarCaster, um know yourself, but you can build any UI. That's the thing, but like the UI
00:36:39
Speaker
And Farcaster, the data in Farcaster, are completely decoupled. You could really, why that does different things. You could make it work like Twitter or like a thread forum, or you could make it work like a live chat or something. Like you've got so much freedom. And WarpCost is just one client for Farcaster. It's pretty fun. Interesting. Yeah, I definitely need to check it out. I've heard of a lot of great things and some of the biggest sort of brands and in Web3 are on there, right? they've They have their own like company profile. yeah Yeah. Even from a growth perspective, it as a growth tool, I think it's it's it's still early on and early enough that you could actually you know grow your you're following easier than you would on Twitter. like I've seen that so long as you engage and you interact, your following is going to grow.
Security Operations in Blockchain
00:37:24
Speaker
and You will also get, I think, ah highlighted if you are very very active on the subreddit, on Farcaster, you your your account will be highlighted just continuing the growth of your account, which is pretty nice. Yeah, it's awesome. I'm always always up for increasing my following base for sure. That's cool, man. um So i I meant to ask ah one of the questions that I actually had prepared was the difference between the CISO solution and SOC. Because the CISO is AI forensic and SOC is, in my head, they're very similar. So if you could just explain what the how do they work in a different way, what's different about them?
00:38:07
Speaker
Definitely. So so the CISO solution um is our blockchain investigation and analytics tool. This is where, um, you know, if you're an exchange and a suspicious transaction goes into your ecosystem and it gets flagged by our API, um, then you would perform a stricter due diligence process on that transaction to understand, you know, making sure that this is not like, you know, a terrorist group or, uh, you know, if it's flagged for whatever it's sort of like high
00:38:41
Speaker
high alert, performing that due diligence, having that report, and then you know your compliance procedure or based off of whoever regulator you're supposed to be you know filing these for, that's what that tool is is done. right So that's where from a private sector standpoint. right From a public sector standpoint, that tool is used to investigate transactions, um you know find fine criminals, recover funds, um so on and so so forth. So the Web3 SOC product, SOC stands for a security Security Operations Center.
00:39:22
Speaker
And that's sort of like a hub to keep tabs on your smart contract or the smart contracts that you're analyzing um and different functions. One of the functions that I that i love sort of like, I think it's it's a very interesting is you can ah set up the workflow to where you're getting triggered every time that Tether or Bitfinex is adding a blacklist um Well, is adding an address to its blacklist function, right? So. um
00:40:00
Speaker
ah Bitfinex is sort of the entity that goes into the Tether protocol and and cause these functions and has these capabilities. um So you can actually set up our tool to where you're getting notified in real time when that happens. Then what you go ahead and do is. you also flag that address across your client base, right? Because a tether addressed is an EVM compatible address. So if tether is blacklisting it, the question is why should you go and do the same thing for Avalanche, Finance, Ethereum, and all these different networks where that address also lives?
00:40:43
Speaker
Um, right. So that's, that's what that is. That's what, uh, the, the tool's not for that specific use case, but the tool is for how can I keep tabs, um, across the smart contracts, you know, to reduce my vulnerability measures from a security standpoint. Uh, and then there's a lot within the tool that you can do such as like you have, you have a communications plan within the tool. If. my, you know, entity was ever to get hacked. Who do I need to reach out to? Do I need to reach out to a law enforcement agency right away? Have them beyond the case.
00:41:16
Speaker
um Do I need to let our CEO know, let our CFO know? ah Do I need to let a PR company know or whatever
Risk Management and Compliance in Blockchain
00:41:25
Speaker
it might be, right? So like that's where you are going to have all of that sort of communication plan um so that your team is equipped and they're not caught off guard when something wrong does happen. So our goal is like, can we start to engrave this level of maturity and consciousness to teams that are managing, you know, millions of of dollars of assets under management through their protocol or through their ecosystem. And that's the only way that we're gonna mature this place space and bring peace of mind to institutions that are dealing with these companies. And I think that's that's the biggest thing here when you ask like, do you think enterprises are gonna chase the bull market? I think they're only gonna chase, say, if the risk management procedures are set in place.
00:42:11
Speaker
Right. Because like the biggest thing about an enterprise launching a web through initiative is, is the legal aspect and the risk management aspect, because they don't, and in fact, enterprises are are the first ones to experiment with any new technology. We're seeing this across AI, we've seen it across generative AI, robotics, Amazon launch, you know, is building robots, Tesla is building robots, right. yeah But when we're dealing with cryptocurrencies because of its history with the SEC issuing subpoenas to companies, you know, and it being sort of like a gray area of like, packings are prevalent, and all these other things, risk management, sort of like the first thing, like I talked to a company, like all they wanted to do was tokenize, they were trying to tokenize real estate, but they weren't even trying to tokenize real estate, they were just trying to tokenize a contract. Right.
00:43:06
Speaker
Like when, when this person explained it to me, it was very straightforward, like very simple of what they were trying to do. They were basically just trying to, uh, issue an NFT with that of like the, the, the mortgage of the, uh, or the contract of, of the, of the property. That's it. We're just trying to give you like a certificate of authenticity. Like you are in fact, the owner here's an NFT, like nothing complex, nothing sophisticated. But in order to just do that, they needed to go through a year-long cycle with the legal firm. And you know when when that is being shared to me, it's like the problem to mass adoption is risk management. Like it's the compliance side, it's the legal side, it's making sure that if they're gonna launch an experiment that it doesn't go wrong to like now they have lawyers coming at them or now they have a regulator coming at
Blockchain vs AI Adoption
00:43:59
Speaker
them.
00:43:59
Speaker
And I think that's sort of like the nature of the industry, at least here in the US, which is you know a country that is heavily regulated for you know in in many aspects when it comes to our financial system or when we're when we're launching financial-based products.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah, so that's sort of like my gist there. And I know it kind of went a little of bit away from the question around the tools, but that's where um the idea of the tools are coming into place. yeah no and I think that's a very important point to mention. I think corporations, enterprises are just having that kind of confidence in this space. It's incredibly important. um there's You're just right to point out that there hasn't really been that. they they They haven't had that level of confidence and that's one of the reasons why a lot of them haven't
00:44:49
Speaker
made the leap into web through your blockchain. And I mean, a lot of them are still, um I think they're trying to figure out how to best use this technology.
AI's Impact on Metaverse and Gaming
00:45:00
Speaker
It's apparent to me that AI seems to have more immediate use cases than blockchain. Like if you look at, um Metta's shift, right? Because Metta and Zuckerberg, he was all about a metaverse two years back. And now he's all about AI. yeah It's just a lot of these, they seem to have shifted towards something that's more easily monetized, I guess, because AI, you could package it in a product and be like, okay, this this tool does all of these things for you. It's going to cost you this much a month. And the only risk for the company is scraping the data.
00:45:36
Speaker
in the data set, which is becoming increasingly difficult to do it with ah you know without breaking a copyright law. And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of a lot of lawsuits coming out of that, um but at least there's no like financial risk or huge financial risk that you take by creating something. so I get what why a lot of the hype has shifted to AI temporarily. I don't think it's going to stay like this. I think that there's definitely going to be more use cases in blockchain. um But yeah, I get the resistance for people. I define sort of AI within the metaverse. So ah the opposite of the metaverse would be the universe. So we're exploring out of the world or we're going deeper into, you know,
00:46:24
Speaker
our digital consciousness or deeper into sort of like the software aspect rather than like the external side, which would be like hardware, we launch rockets up to space. right So I still, I highly believe like this AI sort of shift is still getting us closer to a reality of what a metaverse can potentially be. um Right, because like the evolution of all of these like LLMs is eventually a character. because we have speech, right? But now we needed to actually conceptualize like, what is it that I'm talking to? um Because I strongly believe like, I don't think my grandma um would speak to a software AI, but if it was in a shape of a robot, like ah like a pet, um then I think that the adoption would be more readily available.
00:47:19
Speaker
But I think that like we're that's eventually where we're going to be evolving towards. Yeah, I could totally see that. I could see, um if you're thinking about Metaverse as the traditional vision of the Metaverse, having a virtual and immersive virtual world where you have a 3D character, whether you go in third person or first person, and then interact with that world at large, other players, as well as NPCs. like I could see NPCs being powered by AI. I've seen a few demos. I think there's this guy that made a like AI Skyrim characters. He's made like is ah one of the Skyrim characters like Lydia that kind of follows you around. he turn He gave an AI to that character. So instead of having those predefined three or four lines of conversation has, hey,
00:48:06
Speaker
give me your inventory, leave my party or whatever, you could use your microphone to talk to this AI and it would tell you game lore, it would act as if you know they belong to that game world and it would just interact with you in that way. um like If I would have that in VR, that just like my mind would be blown to just directly interact with AI naturally. Right. And a lot of time to get that over ah where Llama 3 comes into place, right? Like meta already has the meta quest. Yeah. You know, and then it has Instagram and Facebook and all these social networks. Like, ah I think the strategy is there, personally, I think, um eventually, we'll see it sort of like, all harmonizing to one big virtual world, if not if, if we're not sort of living it already, and we're just not conscious of it.
AI and Blockchain Integration
00:48:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's entirely possible. um So Ray Kurzweil's prediction of achieving singularity, he still believes he's going to be 2040. That's 16 years from now. That's 16 years where according to him, our human intelligence is going to increase a million fold. It's just nuts man. it's ah It's a very exciting time and it's ah it's kind of crazy to be there and it's it's cool to see what you know um new ideas are coming out of this space both AI and blockchain and I guess and chain is ah Well, it's between both of these solutions right because you are using AI in the blockchain
00:49:33
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. So, you know, it's in the name, it's embedded in the name, it's embedded in the company culture. um And in in many of our experiences, like our, like, you know, myself and our co-workers experiences. um So everything that we're doing has a foundational AI model ah to just build specific and efficiencies across different workflows or use cases. ah Right. So in the case of investigations, in the case of alerting, you know, and you know, we're we're continuing to to build more more models or or use cases as sort of new AI models come to place, right? Like llama or OpenAI and so on and so forth. Right. So do you have your own data sets? Do you train your own AIs or do you use ah available data sets and AIs and machine learning algorithms? Yep. It's a mixture of both. um We do have a few patents across some of our models.
00:50:29
Speaker
Um, like one of them is a machine learning risk model where okay aggregating all addresses, your blockchain activity, and then giving you a risk score based off of, uh, the different risk management measures that that we're seeing. Right. Okay. That's interesting. So your risk assessment tool, the that's the one that's using AI, right? It acts, well, it could almost act as a KYC in a way, or or not really KYC, but AML, making sure it's not suspicious account, not money laundering. But does that constitute any, does it have any legal basis? Like, because I suppose as a KYC or AML firm, you you're kind of giving a certificate or something, you're checking some personal data.
00:51:09
Speaker
your AI is only checking whatever information there's on chain about this wallet's history. Is that enough to ah be like, okay, with KYC, this customer, we can proceed to sell them a service or whatever? The first thing that we're that we're screening for is distinctions database and known illicit actors. That's like the first thing that does have some sort of like legal
00:51:33
Speaker
acknowledgement, I guess would say. So like, for example, we're, we're aggregating all of these different databases from across the globe, right to have a sanctions database. Like, you know, one that I can share that's relevant is, for example, Israel has a specific counter intelligence, you know, government website where ah it has added ah many addresses from FARHAD, which is an Iranian extremist group, bri um from Hamas, from Hezbollah. And it's basically said, hey, these addresses have been sanctioned ah by the Israeli government due to their role in terrorist financing. Our goal is to aggregate all of those addresses, put it into our database, and then try to, and then with our machinery models,
00:52:29
Speaker
find all of those, uh, associated addresses that have interacted with that. Right. Because the funding for those specific addresses have came from, from a, uh, second degree connection. So then that connection now has an associated risk. so But is it possible you'd have false flags there if you were to highlight someone that just happened to interact but without meaning to? with ah with ah yeah The possibility for a false positive is always there, which is why we ah we offer that Cecil tool so that you can actually go and do your new diligence and you as the entity can make that.
00:53:09
Speaker
We're just here um you with intelligence and a level of risk. um It is still up to you, the human, to make that conscious decision based off of the facts that have been provided to you.
00:53:24
Speaker
That makes sense. that that That sounds reasonable. It's always reasonable to have a human kind of double check something before they make the call. That's my concept of like where automation doesn't necessarily overtake human work because you you will always need a human to to verify um you know the things that have been automated by by AI or different models. Yeah, and you also need humans to kind of keep this technology in check or to maintain this technology or I'm sure we'll get to a point where AI can train itself and then can create new code to improve itself. We're not probably not far off, I'd say maybe, I don't know, two years, three years that the the pace at which this industry is evolving is kind of scary. So I'm sure it will keep evolving at that at that pace. The only limitation is probably going to be
00:54:18
Speaker
electricity and hardware because it costs insane amounts of money to train this um and huge amounts of electricity. But given you know the amount of funds that Microsoft has, like I'm not concerned that they will continue to just push boundaries with OpenAI as much as they can. I guess, yeah, the question is, Where does the human element fit into maintaining this and what kind of control the human element has? Well, we know the level of control it has right now. It's pretty much, you know, it's 100% vetted by humans. That's why you also get the difference between, you know, like all the political and ideological ideas that are being fed into certain AIs.
AI's Impact on Job Markets
00:55:04
Speaker
That's something that human makes. That's not something that AI makes. That's something that human needs to clean.
00:55:10
Speaker
right yeah just Like how we have janitors in the physical world, we're going to have janitors in the virtual world. And these janitors' job is to clean the data because data comes with biases. It comes with historical context. yeah History hasn't played out as well as we as a as we hope it had because we'd be in a much better place if it did. So ah yeah, I completely agree. like There's you know garbage in, garbage out. Right. The AI doesn't know it. Oh, yeah. And I think the fact that like people seem to, some people seem to be a bit scared or concerned that AI might take their jobs. I don't think it will. I think there might be, even if AI becomes so good that you're not going to need designers and you're not going to need someone to sign off the process, or maybe you're just going to need your head of design to sign off whatever the AI makes, and then you get rid of the the junior level staff.
00:56:08
Speaker
That's possible, but I think it's just a temporary change into a different area. Like you said, you would need you know janitors or people to maintain these systems. It's just a shift, a shift from your current skill set onto a slightly different skill set. I don't think you'll replace jobs. I think you'll probably end up creating as many as it replaces in the in the long
Future of Blockchain and Web3
00:56:29
Speaker
run. Right. If not even more. right so That's what I'm excited about. Yeah, no, it's cool. It's really exciting. do So do you guys have anything, any new releases or anything exciting planned for 2024, 2025? So the addition of new chains um is it's always something I'm looking forward to. As new systems start to evolve, we need the solutions that we have built on Ethereum and the more mature chains.
00:56:56
Speaker
Um, we need those capabilities to, to start entering these, these smaller chains. Right. And as you're mentioning, right? Like AI is growing at an exponential great, uh, rate. So is, so is what three. And so are a lot of these newer chains, right? Like, for example, we didn't really have base in the last bullseye. Now we have, right. Now we also have sweet, we have, um, different sort of blockchain protocols that are gaining a lot of popularity. Um, So that's something that i'm that I'm always looking forward to in the addition of a new chain, which means the addition of new use cases. right So the Web3 starts to mature. It starts to evolve. ah you know We went from DEXs was the big thing to then NFTs. What's the next big thing? is ah right And there's a big
00:57:46
Speaker
topic around D pin technology. So, and and different concepts as well. So as our blockchain analytics solution starts to evolve, the use cases as well. So we're no longer just tracking NFTs and the movement of cryptocurrencies. You might be tracking tracing the movement of physical assets in the real world. And we're just seeing the movement on on chain, right? Because they have like an NFC connected or they have some sort of IoT dev device that that tracks the movement. And we're seeing it as as an asset on the ledger.
00:58:21
Speaker
um So that's sort of like what I'm looking forward to. And and yeah know our new release, again, is going to be that of of of new chains. That's cool. one Well, you which chains do you support right now, actually? Over 25 different chains. Ooh, nice. Cosmos? So not Cosmos, the native token. We have support one L1 or one L2 on Cosmos. And we're now going to be supporting an additional L2 on Cosmos. That's cool. And yeah, so that's those are the new chains. For many of the blockchains that we do support, we have unique partnerships and relationships with these chains.
00:58:58
Speaker
So that's another interesting aspect of our competitive advantage, which is there are specific chains that we're really good at due to our relationship with the actual blockchain protocol. Right. So I also meant to ask you, how do you go about connecting this technology to a blockchain? um Is it at the core level? Do you need to involve core developers to to integrate your tech or is it through a node gateway and anyone can do it so long as they have a node and they can connect and just fetch some data? both
00:59:29
Speaker
okay And then the complexity relies based off of the chain. Right. So in the in the when you say that you support 20 chains, it means that you have this kind of core connection between the... Yeah, for most of them. Okay, that's cool. For others, we're using like RPCs. Okay. Any reason why you would you wouldn't just use RPCs? This speed of actually having the infrastructure built internally. Right, yeah. Yeah, I'm guessing that if if it's embedded right into the code base, then it's it's a lot quicker, less overhead.
Unchained.ai's Role in Security and Whistleblowing
01:00:08
Speaker
That makes sense.
01:00:10
Speaker
Cool, man. It gives us a stake as well in in the network. Oh, yeah. That's a that's fair point. That sounds really cool. um ah Do you have, my last question is, do you um i have any examples where Anchain prevented or helped track a potential dangerous use case and and limited the damage as much as it could? And how that worked would be interesting to see behind the scenes. um So I wouldn't say, hey, you know Lazarus tried knocking on this door and they weren't able to enter it because we we we would most likely not know of it ah because um you know our our our client is the one that's dealing with that. I would say for every client that Antchain has, it has not been hacked. Antchain did the job of ah preventing that. Right.
01:01:05
Speaker
so the less noise that you're that you're seeing coming across our clients, that's a success and ah metric for us, ah right? Because they're they're using our API, they're using our tools, and if their business is is flowing and it's going great, and they're they're not getting an issue with the fine, then you know that our solution's working. So, ah yeah, not the best answer that you're probably expecting, but ah that's, cool that that's ah That would be the nature of of where we're we're succeeding and and preventing bad actors.
01:01:41
Speaker
right right and that's all With on-chain data, and if you're able to connect it to some off-chain data, I'm guessing you will. I think you mentioned that. If you could connect the wallet address, have it, you know, okay, we've confirmed that it belongs to this person or this email address. And I'm guessing that's also a database that you keep? um gar Yeah, we offer open source intelligence data or OSINT data. So if there's anything out there that ah that we can connect an address to an entity, to a phone number, to business name, et cetera.
01:02:13
Speaker
ah Right. Yeah, we'll provide that. I guess to answer your question, somewhere where we did prevent it was because we did whistleblower on FTS and Alameda.
Reflections on Crypto Crashes and Security Needs
01:02:22
Speaker
Right. yeah that that whole fiasco could have lasted a lot longer. um And the damage could have probably been a lot bigger than what it would have been. It could have been disastrous. Yeah. Imagine like ah leaving ah ah FTX just run for another two or three years. It could have been because it was the second biggest cryptocurrency exchange, wasn't it, at the time? And i the second biggest, and I believe it's the biggest financial crime, I think it was bigger than Bernie Madoff.
01:02:50
Speaker
um Wow. Yeah, crazy. Absolutely crazy. Yeah. um'm Well, I'm glad that chapter is over, man, because it was ah it was a really wild time. It was it was crazy. But then it it will also happened very close to the Luna crash, which also made everything so feel so surreal. Yeah, that's what right. Right. With Luna with three AC and then Yeah. became history there was There was one hack that I recall. I'm not sure. It was around the same period, but probably a few a few months after this had happened. And I don't remember exactly who was the target, but I remember that it was a unique situation. um It was he was a almost like the first cryptocurrency crowd looting attack. There was this one attacker that found a vulnerability in one of the, I think it may have been a bridge or or a certain on-chain protocol.
01:03:42
Speaker
And when he exploited that, it was such an obvious exploit that other people replicated it and then shared with with other people. So they people just kept draining that protocol and it suddenly just shared with, it spread across hundreds of different wallets that started doing the same thing. And it was the only, I think the first time that a kind of crowd event happened where people were just looting a protocol because they figured out it was super easy to to crack. um Some people ended up um taking the money just for safekeeping and then giving them back. But some of them completely took advantage of the situation. Yep, I do. I want to say it was sushi swap, perhaps? It may have been. I do remember exactly what I remember that event. I just can't recall where or what the the the name of the entity was. But it sounds very familiar.
01:04:36
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was one that stuck in my head because it was different from the others. You didn't have a a concentrated group of people. You had one guy that found out one vulnerability and then people were like, hey, I can do this too. Right. And then they just went. Yeah, did it. It's crazy.
Closing Remarks and Social Media Engagement
01:04:51
Speaker
um Anyway, man, listen, I had a great time talking to you about this. I feel it's definitely something that the industry needs both for growth and support and also for the kind of trust that it needs right now to just get out there in the mainstream. um And I wish you guys all the best. I'm going to keep up a close eye to see what kind of new products yeah you're you're building and um just to be kind of aware of where where you guys are at and kind of the things you're doing. ah Do you have any socials or anything specific you want to shout or any announcements you want to make?
01:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. um You know, to anyone that's listening, if they want to follow us, um you know, anchain.ai is our website. Anchain.ai is our socials. And then my personal socials is at the Wolf oflo nice well wall street but of Block, the blockchain. School handle, man. That's a cool handle. Grab that on Farcast before it goes away. Yeah. I should probably do it before on this goes live. Yeah. Oh, it's going to go live. and We have, we have five, I think five epi episodes ahead. So it's going to go live in about a month or so. Okay. So there's time. Awesome. Cool, man. Thanks a lot for joining and have a nice rest of your day. Yep. Likewise. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. See ya. Bye everyone.
01:06:10
Speaker
years