Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
#25 - Crypto Regulation, Polkadot and Kusama with Chrissy HIll
55 Plays5 months ago
Chrissy Hill is the interim Chief Operating Officer and Chief Legal Officer at Parity Technologies. Parity is the core entity behind the development of Polkadot and Kusma blockchains.
Chrissy’s journey into the world of blockchain and web3 started in her previous role working for former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. During her decade-long tenure as COO and General Counsel for Blair, she was introduced to the basics of blockchain and web3. This exposure came through the Institute for Global Change, which focused on how technology, including blockchain, could transform digital governance around the world, particularly in developing nations.
In October 2021, Chrissy joined Parity Technologies, attracted by its long-term vision and commitment to regulatory compliance. Her experience in law and compliance made her the perfect fit for navigating the complex regulatory landscape of the blockchain industry.
Parity Technologies and the Polkadot Ecosystem
Parity Technologies is a leading contributor to the Polkadot ecosystem, responsible for maintaining and upgrading the relay chain. The company plays a crucial role in the development and support of Polkadot and its canary network, Kusama. Polkadot is known for its implementation of parachains, which are individual blockchains that run in parallel within the Polkadot ecosystem, enabling scalability and interoperability.
The Web3 Foundation, another significant entity within the Polkadot ecosystem, issued the native token DOT and supports over 600 projects within the Polkadot and Kusama ecosystems.
Challenges in the Blockchain Industry
One of the significant challenges in the blockchain industry, as Chrissy pointed out, is the perception and understanding of the technology by regulators and the public. Chrissy emphasised the importance of making the technology more relatable and understandable to people outside the industry. This involves demystifying the jargon and presenting the technology in a way that highlights its real-world applications and long-term vision.
Polkadot governance and regulatory compliance
Chrissy's background in law and regulation has been instrumental in shaping Parity Technologies' approach to compliance. She discussed the proactive efforts made by Polkadot to engage with regulators worldwide, including in the US, Japan, Switzerland, and the UK. These efforts aim to educate regulators about the technology and advocate for sensible regulations that promote innovation while protecting consumers.
A significant achievement for Polkadot is that its native token, DOT, has not been classified as a security by the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). This is a testament to the careful regulatory approach adopted by the Polkadot ecosystem from the outset.
One of the most anticipated features is the introduction of Snowbridge, a trustless bridge between Polkadot and Ethereum. This bridge will enable ERC-20 token transfers and smart contract calls, fostering greater interoperability between the two ecosystems.
This podcast is fueled by Aesir, the smartest crypto trading bot platform on the market. Sign up and use code AESIRPOT20 at checkout for 20% OFF your subscription.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Polkadot
00:00:08
Speaker
I'm a big fan of Polkadot and I've been following the development of the project and the vision and the parachains. So it's it's fantastic to have you come on board and and then just discuss, um you know, the vision, the product, the team and and everything in between. Well, I'm really pleased that to have the opportunity to discuss my perspective of Polkadot. I've been part of the ecosystem now for two and a half years. And as you know, um I feel like being in Web3, it's kind of more like dog years than regular years.
Journey to Blockchain
00:00:44
Speaker
Yeah, I was just asking, was this your first, was 2022 your first introduction to crypto, blockchain and Web3?
00:00:51
Speaker
No, I had been introduced to the basics of Blockchain and Web3 through my previous role working for the former UK Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I was his chief operating officer in general counsel and worked with him for almost a about decade. yeah So towards the end of my time there throughout 2021, there was a drive to focus on technology for development ah within the Institute for Global Change, Mr. Blair's organization. And so I had begun to hear about how Web3 could impact digital governance around the world and how blockchain with the technology underlying that and
00:01:41
Speaker
how it could transform the world. So when I heard about this role at Parity in about October, 2021, I was like, oh, I know a little bit about this, not a lot, but it had gotten me interested to learn more and to meet the
Global Impact of Blockchain
00:01:57
Speaker
people. And as soon as I did that, I was ready to jump on board in this frontier of law and regulation, which is what I love to do. That's a fantastic story. I had no idea that you work for the Tony Blair's office. So I'm guessing then you had discussions or at least kind of a high level idea of where might the UK government be in terms of blockchain and technology in in in a few years time? Were these things that were actively being discussed?
00:02:28
Speaker
time? Yes, they were. And not just for the UK government, but also for developing nations um and Global North versus Global South. So Mr. Blair's organization focused a lot on Africa in particular and um ah Central Asia. And it was very interesting to see that the use cases in those jurisdictions could be um significantly more rapidly adopted because of a ah difference in approach to infrastructure that you see in some of those nations. And so there was a ah lively discussion about how innovation could really transform governance
00:03:17
Speaker
in Africa, for instance, across Africa. so Well, yeah. I think there are a few technology companies, or specifically blockchain companies that are developing or or planning to develop infrastructure in Africa because it's it's cheap and it's fair, right? you You pay for what you use and I think that was... Yeah, it's coming back to me now. It was a company looking to provide internet access through blockchain technology. in Africa on the idea that if it's on blockchain, if it's decentralized, you only pay for what you use, you pay the notes and the notes can make money so you could find your own in there and and help provide ah you know coverage for internet in Africa.
Role of Parity in Digital Governance
00:03:56
Speaker
um Is the project that you were considering at the time, is that still ongoing now within the UK government?
00:04:03
Speaker
Uh, so it was, um, you know, there's a lot of discussions going on and this is obviously kind of three years down the line now. right And so I think there have been so many developments in that time. And I've been focusing so much on parity and polka dot that, um, I really haven't checked in on any of those previous projects other than to see that there's still a lot being written about them and, uh, an increasing amount of knowledge and acceptance of the technology, not just in the UK, but across Europe and and many jurisdictions around the world. And even in the US, I mean, you see the FIT bill being um voted on by the House of Representatives. So I feel like there's very positive momentum, which is great to see.
00:04:53
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it's definitely fantastic to see that. um So shall we start maybe if you want to give a high level overview of what parity technology does and what it stands for? Sure. so ah Essentially, Parity Technologies is the entity within the Polkadot ecosystem that is the leading contributor in terms of technology and and maintaining the relay chain. So I always think of it as where um many of the devs sit who have been building for ages and are maintaining and upgrading.
00:05:32
Speaker
So it's an exciting place to be. We also have the Web3 Foundation, which is and within the Polkadot ecosystem. And that entity was the issuer of our native token DOT. And then there are over 600 other projects within the Polkadot and Kusama ecosystem that are ah alive and well today. and um getting stronger and stronger. So it's a very exciting place
Polkadot's Vision and Regulation
00:06:01
Speaker
to be. It's it's also the world's largest Dow. So it's um never boring, Andre, never boring.
00:06:09
Speaker
Oh, I didn't realize that parity technologies is a DAO. That's fantastic. well Part of Polkadot. Part of Polkadot. Yeah, which is the world's largest DAO. Got it. I remember ah ah just the time before Polkadot had announced the the live deployment of the parachains and then they just like happened one day and I was there just looking at the feed and then everyone was just so excited about the possibility of parachains, myself included. I think the use cases are potentially unlimited. I remember at the time that I was thinking, this is so far ahead that a lot of people are not going to get it right now. It's something that people will understand that there's a use case and a need for it once
00:06:53
Speaker
either the technology stack for the developers is there and once people have a ah deeper understanding of why you might want to have a business on a blockchain or a private version of a chain. Absolutely. And that's one of the things that attracted me to polka dot and to parody is that long-term vision and also the commitment to longevity, right? This is not a sprint. It's a marathon. It's about changing the way we interrelate with the world really. And for me, uh, especially considering my, my background and, uh,
00:07:33
Speaker
legal and in compliance and also in operations. It was very attractive because the very careful regulatory approach that I saw adopted by the Polkadot ecosystem, particularly Web3 and Parity, made me feel like it was the place that I wanted to be. And I understood even two and a half years ago that regulation was coming. It's impossible to avoid it, but what you want is good regulation and you want to help educate individuals. So we get in place the regulation that allows us to continue to innovate and build and change the world.
00:08:22
Speaker
And I felt like the people I met and and yeah I felt that then and I still feel that nail that I'm i'm in the right place to help do that. That's fantastic. So as part of your ah role or or the legal side of your role at Parity, um do you ever um ah have discussions with legal representatives or with people within the government? ah do Do you guys try to maybe fill in the knowledge gaps, which I'm sure are there for people that maybe want to regulate this industry but don't know how to? Yeah, we definitely were ah active not only in the UK but around the world. um
00:09:02
Speaker
you know, in the in the U.S. ah but between 2019 and probably 2022, we had about 50 meetings with different regulators, meetings with the Swiss regulators, um Japanese, all around the world, trying to educate not just about Polkadot, but also about Web3 and um the the vision. and I'll tell you a quick story about one of our first interactions with a legislature like sorry with a legislator in the UK. I was at the Houses of Parliament for an event. and This is an individual who I was familiar with from my previous job with Mr. Blair. and He came up to me and he was like, Chrissy,
00:09:55
Speaker
Why have you joined an industry where they cannot even spell, build and hold the right way?
00:10:06
Speaker
And I laughed, but then I thought, actually, that's a problem because if The people who are making the laws think that they have totally the wrong perception of the amazing work and the amazing people who are in this industry. And so I really wanted to work hard to make sure that all of that hard um effort and innovation was recognized and that this vision was something that people could adopt, not just the technology, but also the the vision and and to correct that um perception. So I hope I have done my part over the last two and a half years to do that. And also it's a reflection on us because it is a funny joke. It was an inside joke. And for a group of people who are
00:11:04
Speaker
ah at heart so inclusive. It actually makes us exclusive and opaque because people feel like if they don't speak the jargon that they can't relate and the tech is already so intimidating for many people that I think reaching out our hands and and telling the story in a a more um relatable way is absolutely essential.
Technological Innovations in Polkadot
00:11:34
Speaker
So that's what I'm trying to focus on, Andre. Yeah, and that's such a good approach to go about it. there There is still, I want to say, a certain level of elitism, I feel, across some individuals in the space where just because ah they know about crypto or blockchain, they they feel like they can educate, it well, not educate, but force their opinion on on everyone. and
00:11:57
Speaker
I feel like you know it's become, ah from my perspective, in the like if I look on Twitter or on Reddit, I see that it's becoming a bit harder to actually find the individuals who are in it for the tech versus the ones that are in it for for for speculation. ah I'm not sure if you've ever spent any amount of time on on Reddit cryptocurrency, which is like the biggest cryptocurrency community on the internet. um yeah Back in 2013, 2014, 2015, you had people building the the projects that we talk about now. You had people building Ethereum, building Bitcoin.
00:12:32
Speaker
um That that subredd is now turned into this echo chamber of people talking about three or four projects that they like, which are kind of interchangeable and ah every bull cycle. And I've seen like real resistance when when you have something new to introduce. like People seem a bit technophobic, even people within crypto. And I'm not sure whether that's because a lot of people are still trying to catch up with the technology, which is not easy to get in in detail. or whether it's something else, but it's an interesting thing I've noticed. It is it is an interesting thing. And and I think ah you know having just experienced the crypto winter, it is hard to accept something new sometimes because you kind of hunker down in what you get, right? And and that's probably a natural human reaction.
00:13:26
Speaker
But I'm proud to say that being part of Polkadot, you know, we're always looking towards that long-term future. And Dr. Gavin Wood actually announced JAM at token 2049 just ah a couple weeks ago and is now on a university tour around the world explaining his vision of of JAM, which is the next iteration of Polkadot, so Polkadot 3.0. Now, still, we're focusing on Polkadot 2.0 at the moment, which is to make what's currently existing even better through like um asynchronous backing and agile core time, elastic scaling, ah decentralized bridges. There's a ton of work, and I will be the first to admit I will defer to my
00:14:16
Speaker
absolutely amazing ah engineers that I work with to provide more details. But, you know, I know a bit about ah what they're working on and and really appreciate it. I mean, just for instance, asynchronous backing um was tested on Kusama in April and came live on Polkadot in the 7th of May. And it's already um quadrupling the computing time per block. so We have a 10 times increase in throughput as a result. so That's massive. It's it's massive. um and you know Block production is going from 12 seconds to 6 seconds. so It's actually outperforming things and metrics that we originally thought would happen. so It's um
00:15:11
Speaker
Really pleased to see that work being recognized and being successful. And then um a lot of the other um upgrades that I mentioned are gonna be rolled out over the next couple of weeks and months, some of which have already been tested on Kusama. So it's, I'm proud to be part of this group that isn't afraid to look to the future and do new things. yeah thanks for andre As I can from ah from a general operational and and legal perspective. And now I appreciate the the overview on this and and I was just going to say that people that are but very techno files or tech forward are some of the most optimistic people that I've ever had the pleasure of of ah talking to.
00:15:53
Speaker
Absolutely a hundred percent and I also one of the things that I love about this world um is I've learned to look at the engineers as artists because they're creating and they're Innovating and building and their medium is not ah Bronze or clay it's it's it's coding and That is a really exciting group of people to be around and it's inspiring now also sometimes I'll be honest, that comes with an artistic temperament as well. And when I, in my capacity, am delivering some constructive feedback, I always have to be mindful of that because it's a passion project, right? It's your creation. So I always keep that in mind and be respectful.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, ah but I think there's some people that get into programming and development because it's a good career and they've got prospects and you've got a future. But a lot of people just get into it because they they love nerding out on this technology. They love building stuff, tinkering with stuff. you know It's just you're not doing it in the garage with your tool. you know you're just You're doing it up on a computer using a programming language. um and And I find myself in that sphere. taught myself several programming languages, you know, pretty much from scratch ah because I just like doing it. um I don't expect anything in return. It's just the kind of process that sometimes centers me. Sometimes you'll hear swear words that you thought never existed before when I'm in front of the computer and I code stuff, but it's it's a balance and and it's it's fantastic to kind of just have the possibility to explore this.
00:17:37
Speaker
And I can relate to that because I, uh, quickly realized when I first joined that I need to understand that tinkering mentality a bit more. And so I went on, um, are in internal kind of parody and polka dot podcast. And I said, someone's coding pad, one call up from one of the OGs. And he was like, k Chrissy, if I can teach you programming, I can teach anybody, which is true.
00:18:04
Speaker
He taught me um a little bit of Ruby on Rails. I launched my own web app. That is the extent of what I've done. But um I think I came up with a few new swear words as well, Andre. It's inevitable. I feel when when it doesn't work, it's so easy to get caught into why doesn't it work and just spend three hours in front of the computer obsessing over it rather than going out for a five-minute walk. I've done that too. I've had a five-minute walk. I come back and suddenly, oh, that's it's so obvious. This is the solution.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And ah when you see what Sinatra doesn't know that diddy or whatever, like, 100%. So I also meant to to get a little bit into the differences between Kusama and Polkadot. um I know about Kusama. I know why it was developed as a project, but you've you've mentioned that um there's some of these new developments like asynchronous blocks were tested on Kusama first. I kind of know that Kusama is supposed to be a test bench for different projects, though I didn't know whether it's the developers or the node validators or the end user that's meant to be doing the testing.
Understanding Kusama and Substrate
00:19:15
Speaker
So, yeah. Kusama, I think of as our canary network. That's generally how we explain it. so
00:19:24
Speaker
It can be used for anyone doing anything. um So all the use cases that you would see on Polkadot can be tested on Kusama. And um it really is a great way for people to try out their ideas in a safe environment before it goes live. So it's an important part of what we do and how we operate. So we always, as you heard, I'm always like, well, any synchronous backing came out on Kusama first, casual court time on Kusama. Like it's part of the expected life cycle of what we do. And I would encourage people to to check it out. And, um, you know,
00:20:14
Speaker
it is unpredictable and inherent in a canary network is hey, you know, enter at your own risk really and be ready for anything. But I think that is also exciting. Right. So it's presumably then easier for someone to interact with the code base and community if they wanted to ah create, make a pull request or make a change to to the governance of it or or anything that has to do with the core of Kusama. Yes, yes, it is. um Although, you know, under OpenGov, which is ah the governance mechanism for Polkadot, we also have the ability to vote on any changes to you know the the basic code and and those are automatically enacted. So it doesn't go through any kind of ah clearinghouse or centralized authority for changes to be enacted.
00:21:12
Speaker
And um I think Kusama, you know it's it's a bit looser, but but still that's one of the reasons why we're really proud of OpenGov is that you know it gives you that ability to um make decisions directly for Polkadot. Right. And is the governance relatively similar to the Polkadot governance? I remember reading about Polkadot governance and please correct me if I'm wrong, because that was a few years ago and I may have forgot some details, but it works based on super majority. In so far as 66.6% of nodes agree on something, then that's considered a valid vote.
00:21:49
Speaker
So um there's different tracks, different tracks for voting. um And I would have to get you, I must admit, I can't remember the exact percentages off the top of my head right now, but I can definitely um get you the ah the details. But how Kusama and Polkadot work are very closely interrelated. But what I would say is definitely focus on the full on-chain governance that is um active in Polkadot in the moment. And that's been active since June, 2023. And it's basically one dot equals you know one vote. And that's a whole nother discussion about how that process works.
00:22:35
Speaker
but um it is very, uh, it is a very lively community and debate around all the different proposals. And I think there are 95 right now that, um, are ah currently, um, under discussion right i think since June. um 2023 we're now like at 800 and something proposals that have been discussed on discussed on various topics ranging from the very technical to sponsoring Inter Miami which is Lionel Messi's team and the second team um also sponsoring a car at the Indianapolis 500 so and then every project and parachain in between so it covers a wide wide gamut and so certainly Kusama
00:23:22
Speaker
um does not have that same level of activity. So that's why I'm directing you to Polkadot and OpenGov rather than necessarily Kusama. Right. No, and that makes perfect sense from that perspective. And tell me if this is, again, it's getting a bit too technical, but Polkadot was built with Substrate.
Interoperability and Development
00:23:45
Speaker
Yes. And Substrate is also the technology stack that you as a developer would be using to create your own custom blockchain with its own rules. Correct. I always think of it as in this, please forgive me, everyone who is very
00:24:00
Speaker
ah technical, but I always think of it as like the skeleton, right? Like, you know, and, you know, it's what you build on with muscle and tissue in order to build out um the body of, you know, whatever you are building. So it's those fundamental building blocks. Right. and what a chain ah potentially so let's Let's say it's a chain that's not necessarily built with substrate or own substrate. um It's an existing chain. Is there a possibility for for that to connect to Polkadot using a different protocol or a different mechanism?
00:24:40
Speaker
So, I mean, this is where, I mean, are we getting into the world of WebAssembly and EVM um and, you know, that conversation? i I must admit that's where we get beyond my technical ability. and And I would hate to say something incorrect, especially because I know this is a a hot topic for discussion at the moment, but certainly we have always focused on um WebAssembly in the past. But there are certain parachains that ah focus on Wasm and also EVM.
00:25:20
Speaker
Right. Yeah. the The reason I ask is because obviously um Gavin's the co-founder, Gavin Woods, the co-founder of Polkadot. He's also co-founded Ethereum. So I'm wondering if Polkadot was built in mind to be potentially you know integrated with the EVM to some extent, or whether that was never part of the scope. Well, it's certainly something, as I said, that is a hot topic for discussion. Yeah. And um there is currently a new technology that enables trustless bridges into other ecosystems. Right. And the first such bridge is called Snow Bridge, and it's a general purpose Polkadot and Ethereum bridge.
00:26:06
Speaker
ah That is currently, I think, um tested on Kusama as well. so ah And it's going to go live very soon within Polkadot. So um I'm hopeful that this month and it's just being evaluated. And I mean, it's going to enable the ERC-20 token transfer transfers and smart contract calls. So it's it's coming. And it's very exciting. And I am definitely not the most educated person to talk about it and will defer to my esteemed and knowledgeable colleagues.
00:26:46
Speaker
and No, that's fantastic. And that is huge, having ERC20 as part of the Polkadot ecosystem. It's fantastic. ah Something I've always liked about Polkadot is just the project and the momentum is always there, and it just keeps tagging along. I've seen other projects that have periods of intense hype and then nothing for you know a long period of time. But Polkadot, there always seems to be something happening there. And you've also had, I think, a few recent events I haven't attended anyone but i i've ah any any one of them, but I'd very much love to. Oh, well, please join us in Brussels in June for our Decoded event, which is our annual event that um is for anyone in the Polkadot ecosystem or who wants to join.
Regulation and Industry Challenges
00:27:34
Speaker
Or there's the Web3 Summit in August in Berlin, which we haven't had since, I believe, but
00:27:44
Speaker
Prior to covet I think it might have been 2019. Oh wow it's coming back for the first time and um I Think it is going to prove to be a very exciting Gathering of different people across web 3 which it has been in the past So there's a few coming up and I'd love to see you there Oh, yeah, I'm literally just making a note. I didn't realize Web3 Summit is coming back. I'm super interested in that. I might get my tickets right after this recording. Back by popular demand. Oh, no, that's great. that's That's what you want to hear.
00:28:22
Speaker
um Before we started the recording our conversation, you mentioned that DOT is the only token within the top 30 that's not being classified as security by the SEC. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and and ah how that's possible? sure so um You know, as I said at the beginning, one of the things that attracted me to Polkadot was the careful regulatory approach, which of ah course is something that would appeal to me. And ah certainly over, ah like I said, a a from 2019 onwards, there was regulatory engagement throughout the world, but particularly in the US.
00:29:04
Speaker
So when DOT was issued, um it was done so in accordance with the US federal securities laws. ah And that was not an easy process and one that was um entered into so we could ensure the longevity as we saw it at that time of the technology. So if you cashed your mind back to 2019, that was when the framework had just been issued by um the US government, by the SEC actually.
00:29:44
Speaker
and um Also, the telegram case had just come out. So would we have done the same thing today as we did in 2019, 2020? I don't know, but you know hindsight is 2020. It is. Always is. no So the decision was made, as I said, to issue dot in compliance with the U.S. securities laws and also ah really focus on decentralization.
00:30:16
Speaker
and DOT being a utility token. And so these have been really consistent concepts. And I think as a result of that, of course, beside Bitcoin and Ethereum, and you know take out the stablecoins. But, um you know, there were 70 different tokens that were listed as securities by the SEC in their various actions over the last months and Dot has been omitted from that list and that is not an accidental omission in our view. We feel very strongly that the work we've done has been important for Dot to be viewed in that way, but also we applaud the industry
00:31:09
Speaker
Testing the legal limits not only for themselves but for the regulators as well so. um you know Within polka dot we are always believing in a multi chain world we are not about tribalism we're about interoperability and so. We say this about DOT not being listed as a security and that is the intention from the outset since 2019 but equally applauding the rest of the industry for getting certainty for all of us because that is something that is necessary I think for this
00:31:53
Speaker
industry to be sustainable for the future and what we all want to see and to achieve our goals. so oh yeah i am it's The frontier of law and regulation, which is what drew me to it in the first place, but be careful what you wish for. and Wishing for a good regulation, I think that's probably a good thing in everyone's mind though. i that One of the things I like about this industry is that you have companies with very different beliefs that operate in the same spectrum. You know you have ah you have Parity and Polkadot that are very considerate with the regulatory framework trying to do everything by the books. And then you also have um things like tornado cache or you know other protocols which
00:32:39
Speaker
They're in and of themselves, they're not malicious. right It's just they're a tool that are being that is being used in a certain way just as you know anything would. um and it's interesting It's interesting to see that You know, even though the code itself, there's there's nothing illegal. There's no law that says this code is is like evil code. The main developer of tornado cache still got five years in prison, ten sentenced five years in prison because he just wrote that protocol, which other people have used. um Yes, it's, uh, tornado cache is obviously something we've been following closely for some time.
00:33:18
Speaker
And um i mean there are a lot of different factors, I think, that went into that judgment. And certainly, developer liability, being that parity is where many of the devs sit in Polkadot ecosystem, is is something that's very much at the forefront of our minds. And ah I think Yeah, I do think code is free speech, right? Yeah. And much like you don't hold phone companies accountable when criminals pick up the phone. Yeah. To do something criminal, ah you shouldn't be held to different standards, right? Just because you're, it's ah it's an app that we're talking about.
00:34:09
Speaker
um Equally, as an industry, we should be aware that we have certain ah obligations, I think, and and principles, and and we should be mindful that we don't want to encourage criminal behavior. We can't. Of course. There's got to be a balance here. and I hate for the industry to be tarred with the same brush as, say, um same Sam Bankman Freed and FTX course. It's it's, you know, just one bad actor is not indicative of an entire industry. and And the U.S. attorney actually, in that case, said something that I think really resonated with me, which was the technology is new and the faces are new. But what Sam Bankman Freed was doing was age old.
00:35:06
Speaker
And that's lying, cheating, stealing, and being negligent. I think there are other examples where people are being penalized when they weren't purposely engaging in bad behavior like SPF did, for instance. And that's not yeah that's not right. That's not fair. That's not justice, which of course is something that is near and dear to my heart. Yeah, of course. Well, the thing that drew my attention, I was familiar with it on our cash protocol and the creator, but what drew my attention to the to the sentence was the fact that he he was found guilty of of money laundering rather than enabling money laundering rather than creating the software. He he like had the sentence put on him based on what other people
00:35:54
Speaker
have used the software for, which I thought that doesn't feel like the right sentence. If you wanted to sentence the guy, okay, just call the code illegal. Like don't sentence him for money laundering when he didn't do that. I feel like they thought he could have done more and wasn't aware of some of the activity and didn't do anything to stop it. So that's where ah I think it's layered. And I'm not sure that we've seen all the test but ah But I do agree with you with the principle that you set out um you know generally, which is oh you know some there is a limit to what we can do as an industry to stop people misusing what you're building. And that's true of every industry.
00:36:45
Speaker
so 100%. And it's the centralized trustless system that in in many cases, there is no active moderation done because there couldn't be one. There are systems in place, there are chains or or products or protocols in place that have some level of moderation. But this is a discussion how do you moderate something that's trustless is that meant to be free and open for everyone to use how do you discourage these bad actors i guess one of the reason would just be it make things more expensive so that not everyone can spam you know a meme coin or something but then you have like a pointed out.
00:37:27
Speaker
but Actors like sbf that that goes well way beyond you know creating a meme coin that's almost disrupt the destructive for the for the industry itself. especially because he had such a high profile, and I think he damaged trust in the industry. I also think it doesn't help, and maybe I'm biased here, but I always think of yeah what we're building at Polkadot is blockchain infrastructure, and it really is use case
Blockchain in Gaming
00:37:58
Speaker
agnostic. DOT is a utility token. We use it for governance. We use it for security. you know It wasn't issued to raise money.
00:38:05
Speaker
um It was issued to so secure the protocol. And so when I'm thinking of the all the different use cases for this blockchain infrastructure, crypto is one. You have NFTs, you have digital identity. I mean, you know the list, just RWAs, it's so long that I always feel like Why aren't we talking about the, you know, decentralized social media? Why aren't we talking about gaming? um And it gets lost. And in the gaming world, they don't even like to think of it as web three. And you know, you shouldn't, but it's there and it's really exciting. So I i feel like ah it's only part of our story and we need to get better at talking about all the different use cases.
00:39:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah, definitely. Well, there are exciting things, very exciting things happening in gaming with Web3, with blockchain technology. um There are a few companies, companies I've even spoken to, Horizon, for instance, they're building an infrastructure layer for developers to use the blockchain to store and and fetch information from it. So this connects to Unity Engine or other game engines and and coders and developers are able to just easily integrate with a chain. The cool thing about Horizon is that it also had a a significant investment from Take 2 Interactive which is Rockstar's parent company indicating that the gaming industry is thinking about it, is taking a leap, is at least giving it a chance and that's super positive and I love to see that.
00:39:53
Speaker
Well, and and and I think it's wonderful to see it across all chains. And then for us at Polkadot, it's mythical. So mythical left Ethereum last year. And, you know, John Linden is the CEO of mythical and he's responsible for bringing Call of Duty to the world. Wow is responsible for NFL rivals and they're actually about to make a really big announcement at consensus next week and um You know, they're on polka dot they're building on polka dot and one of the reasons why is because their project is the star of Polkadot is the foundation, but, you know, through our marketing, through our work and through just the way we approach the tech and also the way Dot works, it they felt like that was their best place to shine and attract people as well. And I find this really um something that resonates with me on a lot of levels because I have a 13 year old and an eight year old.
00:41:00
Speaker
And they spent two years on roadblocks, right? Because of COVID. And so they're so comfortable with gaming, their virtual identity, you know, um skins, like any kind of digital representation of value. like And and It's the future. And this next generation coming up, I mean, I'm a Gen X-er, right? um But Gen Z, Gen Alpha, I mean, they're already there. They do this, like, across, you know, all socioeconomic barriers, geographies, they're they're in. So, and gaming is a
00:41:42
Speaker
entryway for a lot of them. So like, it's a positive thing and we should be embracing it. So it's um something that I never growing up with a Commodore 64 or my Sega would have thought was possible, but it's ah really inspiring to see where it's gotten to. And I'm really excited to see where it goes next. Yes, 100%. Actually, so ah my my girlfriend ah teaches first year and second year students at university. So she's finding because she's she's been doing this for a while. So she's always kind of comparing new generations to older previous generations in terms of like the quality of the text that they produce and the work.
00:42:31
Speaker
And from what we've seen, because I've read some of those essays as well, it feels like newer generations are more comfortable using the technology because it's so second nature to them. And maybe that comfort makes them less likely to dig into things. um A lot of times you take you take ah an iPhone or ah or a Mac or a PC you know ah for what it is. ah We or myself, I kind of had to tinker with things because things only work half the time.
Transparency and Usability in Tech
00:43:03
Speaker
um And that's kind of, I feel the difference here is that um technology and innovations are starting to appear more black box because people don't have a reason to appear under the hood.
00:43:17
Speaker
And do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? um Well, it's a good question. um it it's i I feel like if if it was a ah ah protocol or a system that you didn't have to trust, that is trustless and that is provably trustless, right? um that's not a bad thing you want the technology to do what it's meant to do i also think that there are a lot of people that are taking advantage of of of this opaque approach to building technology right i think about iphone max and apply For me, I've always been a ah ah Windows user, so when I go on a Mac and I realize that there's no folders and I can't see source files, I go, where where is all this? I need to see what's under the hood. You can't just make it so easy for me to get it, because then I get confused.
00:44:10
Speaker
And also because of that, then you have the you know you could you could take advantage of people's trust and introduce. And there have been cases, right? iPhone has been purposefully slowing down new iPhones in order to force people to get new iPhones. like I feel trust is always broken when money is is part of the discussion or is on the table. If you're talking in terms of DAOS or blockchain, you know maybe that's the answer. Maybe that's what we need to stop abusive trust because there doesn't have to be any trust. and and It's such a fascinating discussion. and We're going down a road we didn't have to wait. I just spoke at a tech GC panel um about two weeks ago on how blockchain and AI were the new power couple.
00:44:58
Speaker
and how blockchain provides guardrails and restores trust. So going back to that you know the that trust point yeah like in AI, and then you're like, well, it's a trustless system. you know he's certainly getting i yeah and And like a really interesting philosophical discussion. And um that's probably one for another day, um another discussion, but I feel like, you know, part of the reason why we are all attracted to this area
00:45:36
Speaker
and to disruptive tech or emerging tech is for these very questions to try to answer them and by answering them sometimes it does mean that those who come after us don't have to think about it and um I'm not sure that's always a good thing because I think you maybe lose something in um it being almost too easy. Yeah. And and so i hear I hear you on those those points. I'm not quite sure where we would draw the line. um And I think probably
00:46:16
Speaker
Some people won't care at all because they just want it to work. They just want to pick up their phone and they just want it to work. Yeah. um Others of us are more inquisitive and curious and maybe skeptical and do want to be able to have the opportunity to dig. So um I would just want to encourage that curiosity as much as possible in whatever situation and um it takes time and effort and that desire. But I think maybe just talking about it is enough to hopefully make people curious and um look around and say, why does it work this way? So that's a good thing.
00:46:58
Speaker
it Well, it is it is it's definitely a good thing. And I think trust or not necessarily trust, but your your ability to go in and figure out how this thing works or to understand how this thing works. um it shouldn't It shouldn't necessarily be you know ah something that you have to do in order to be able to trust this system, this product. It should be opt-in. I should be able to be like, okay, I'm curious about this thing. I want to understand how it works. um i i wouldn't I don't understand how a washing machine works in detail or a car. where you know like
00:47:34
Speaker
but i don't I don't have to cuz i trust the car to do its job i don't go and open and the hood and then go and look at all the batteries in the wire sticking out there coming from the ecu and then looking at every single log that my car produces like i would expect any piece of tech to just. do his job, but invite you or be transparent enough to kind of allow you to peer under the hood if you wanted to be like, Hey, okay. These are the things that make this thing work in the way it does. You can trust it because this, this, and this, and here's documentation and here's a community and here's a knowledge base for, you know, to, to satisfy your curiosity. Um, that's not something that I see with again, Apple or a lot of other devices. They're just, here's the product, buy it, be happy and buy it again next year, please.
00:48:23
Speaker
Yes.
Adapting to New Tech
00:48:24
Speaker
and um I think just making sure, like you said, the information is available for those who are curious. But but it's funny because I was a Windows unit user for 20 years and to date myself. and When I moved to Parity, I suddenly had to go on a Mac and I was like,
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it was my, and now two and a half years in, I'm ah much more comfortable with it. And, um, but it was quite an adjustment and I had many of the same questions that yeah like the lack of folders, I was like, what, what's happening? You guys don't have folders. How do you delete stuff?
00:49:10
Speaker
How do I buy things? How do I move things? Okay, you figure it out. um But ah it is an adjustment. And I try to ah keep my my ah mind open as much as possible with these things. And um just also from a legal perspective and a regulatory perspective, oh having the documentation to back up what's been built to explain it, to ah show how it works, how you can troubleshoot things, that there's been audits and you know really independent reviews of ah before and and testing before things are are released are all important to show that care and diligence have been taken. And also there's the ability to look back.
00:50:04
Speaker
and make changes if necessary. So if we take it back to you know with my legal and and kind of regulatory hat on, that type of attention to detail is absolutely vital. So where there's that rigor, it's it's a positive thing. Right. And is that how how the inner workings of Polkadot works behind the scene or or Parity rather than Polkadot focusing on the and the company itself? Let's say you have a big update to Bush and Sama or Polkadot. Does that get reviewed by a legal team? does that get Or is the legal framework in which you guys work right now clear enough that you don't have to repeat the process?
00:50:48
Speaker
So generally speaking, ah where legal would get involved is if there's a question about whether it's GPL three or Apache or Mozilla at this point, right? right um There's a separate audit process. um There is a separate process for the requirements documentation. um and And that generally doesn't require legal oversight. There will be strategic discussions at a leadership level and that's um usually led by our CEO Bjorn Wagner or our ah head of engineering, our vice president of engineering, Pierre Abert, but we're all involved in in
00:51:30
Speaker
understanding the strategic direction. And also, you know there's ah ah wonderful engineering leads who are helping support and have the appropriate like rigor in place to um to measure what matters, to use a Google phrase, and and John Doar and OKRs, which I think are, again, that kind of um approach to thinking about the work, why you're doing the work, and then delivering and also following up on the work is very important.
Governance in Polkadot
00:52:05
Speaker
Oh yeah, 100%. So going back a bit to the idea of ah governance and the idea of freedom to create the things that everyone wants to create, you know, on Kusama or on Polkadot. Is there any level of ah moderation or any kind of oversight over parachains? Maybe anything that they can implement or things they're not allowed to implement? And what happens if they do implement those things? So it it really is down to the community voting on who's involved in the ecosystem, what changes are made to the core features, ah how the treasury funds are being used, whether that is, for instance, to
00:52:56
Speaker
um you know, sponsor a new project or enter into a new partnership. ah So that ah voting process basically decides and and there's no moderation. it It's like who has the voice and um how you decide to vote and and use your dot. Now, in order to provide some independent views on what's happening through the OpenGov process, there are a number of individuals who have been designated as decentralized voices who can provide their own opinion.
00:53:34
Speaker
ah but ah and And some people delegate their votes ah to entities with within the ecosystem, but if the community votes, the decision is made and it's enacted. And um it's a lively debate. yeah People are actively tracking the yeas and the nays or or the eyes and the nays through POCA assembly, which is a wonderful tool that we have in order to to monitor that whole process. So it's, you know, and participation is important.
00:54:15
Speaker
Of course. So does that apply for anyone that wants to create a parachain on Polkadot? Do they have to get some approval some voting approval if they wanted to launch their, let's say, a hospital wants to create a private chain to host their data? um Would they be subject to this to community voting? Well, it's what they do is there is an auction for a slot on the relay chain. Right. So ah that's how you actually get the block space. yeah You engage in this auction process. And ah if you win the auction process, then that slot is yours.
00:55:00
Speaker
So it ah that's something that is actually going to be a little bit different in the future, ah where we um basically, um you know, changed through agile core time. It's basically the purchasing of block space rather than a slot on the relay chain and um um or more accurately core time as we call it and you can
00:55:32
Speaker
purchase um different amounts on a monthly basis. You can purchase in blocks um and it And it's going to, I think, revolutionize the way that people use Polkadot because, I mean, if you only want one block, that's all you have to buy, right? Right. and um Of course you'll want more than that, but it will enable the tinkerers of the world to play around as well as the more developed projects. It will not negatively impact the current parachain model, but it will open up Polkadot's course in a more user friendly way. um And that's for any size and any use case. So that is um tested being tested on Kusama and coming again soon.
00:56:28
Speaker
That's fascinating. I just feel like every governance decision is being is being given so much care in in this ecosystem, in the polka dotting semi-ecosystem. And it's lovely to hear you talk about how you know how all of this is being handled. um But since you're so familiar with with the legal side of things, are there any legal insights that that you could provide regarding maybe the direction of the industry in UK and abroad as well?
Blockchain's Global Influence
00:56:59
Speaker
Well, it's obviously a time of reflection and also a time of change because 10 of the top 25 most populous countries in the world go to the polls this year.
00:57:19
Speaker
um and also the world's biggest trading bloc, which is the EU. So in a time of political change, obviously that can have a huge impact on all industries ah because different political parties will have different approaches. And actually just yesterday in the UK, Rishi Sunak called elections in July, right? And people thought it was going to be the autumn. ah ah So it was a little bit of a surprise. and US in November. And there are a variety of other countries around the world going to vote. And I think by the end of 2024, we will have a much better idea of the direction of travel in some key places around the world. I mean, you also have MICA coming into effect in various member states in the EU, which will give certainty. And I think that is the key word. What is MICA?
00:58:16
Speaker
MICA is ah the EU legislation that relates to digital assets and so provides a path for um digital assets to be um and and to be recognized within the EU. Quite. Yeah. It was voted on last year and is being enacted by the member states right now. Right. so it It basically, I believe that those countries who can provide certainty to the industry, so it can be built into business models, ah then those jurisdictions, those countries will have a competitive advantage. And because what they are doing is they are encouraging innovation and tech that we see today
00:59:13
Speaker
ah we'll just continue to evolve and get better and better. And so if you're at the forefront of that innovation and you're attracting that, ah that's a positive thing for your people, for your society, um for the you know the greater world. So some political parties don't see the value in what we do and others do. So let's see who gets in office. Let's see what decisions are being made. And then I think we will know where the industry is, is best served in order to drive adoption and be successful.
Future of Blockchain and Society
01:00:02
Speaker
I'm hopeful that
01:00:04
Speaker
It's all positive around the world, but as we we'll just have to see, teen a you know, uh, it's, it's not predictable. It's not predictable. no it's not but At the same time though, it's I feel like technology has always been such an important part of ah driving our you know the species forward, driving what it means to be a society and what it means to relate to other humans in time that econ really but ah you put a stop to to innovation and technology.
01:00:41
Speaker
At some point, you will find it's home. Maybe even if, let's say, it won't be the US, you'll be somewhere else. and yeah And you can't really stop digital barriers unless you turn into some kind of totalitarian government, which I don't think a lot of people want that. um So I think it's in every country's best interest. to allow these companies to develop, to grow and to educate people rather than take away from ah what it could be like a great learning experience and and yeah and and ah and a paradigm shift from the current you know system ah to a potentially new one. I know that both ah ah RFK and Trump have expressed their interest in in blockchain and Bitcoin.
01:01:27
Speaker
I don't know whether it's because it's becoming, you know, hype and the prices are going up and they're jumping on the bandwagon. I also don't know how much power they have to change the current registrators that are underneath them. Like it's not like they're going to have oversight or everything. There's a lot of people that are still going to stay in their current roles with the same opinions as before. So it's really a complex, a complex matrix there. it It is a complex matrix and ah I think only time will tell. And I do know that across all different countries, there have been so many very good people who have been active, whether it's through blockchain associations, crypto associations,
01:02:13
Speaker
um through courts um litigating certain topics and through just dinner general dinner conversations. and educating people about the value of what we do. And I feel like that has only increased in speed and the content has improved so much. And the use cases have grown in the two and a half years that I've been involved that I feel like it it really, have a um I'm very optimistic for the future.
01:02:54
Speaker
Yeah, as am I, and yeah im I'm sure it will will end on on the right side of history. um Things just have a way of arranging themselves in in that way. I think there was... I don't remember who said it, but it was a mathematical formula saying that complex systems are more likely to to evolve into a higher order rather than descend into chaos. So a new stack of of technology, of of innovation, it's not going to disrupt society in a way that would be detrimental. It's more likely to to bring benefits to society.
01:03:29
Speaker
And I think that's what it's all about. And I also think that you guys are doing an amazing job at Parity and Polkadot and Kusama. And I just wanted to give you um a bit of time if you wanted to ah ah shout out the socials or ah let us know if there's any new things coming ah coming up this year, 2024, maybe 2025 for Kusama and Polkadot that people should be paying attention to, and this especially. Sure. So I think obviously the Web3 Foundation, Parity Technologies, Polkadot are all very active in every community that that you can think of. And there are so many different projects within Polkadot. As I said, there are over 600. So I would be doing a disservice to um all the projects
01:04:27
Speaker
that are active if I tried to call out too many. So um um maybe I'll send you a list after, because we are active in every use case from the digital identity and we're involved with Deloitte um through to, as I said, gaming, um you know, D pins. It's just yeah what you would ah anticipate. um And also we have ah something called the decentralized futures funding program that's in place. It's open to anybody who wants to build within the Polkadot ecosystem. And it was actually put in place in October of last year and it's run by the Web3 Foundation and it's a grant program um of 45 million US dollars. Oh, wow. It's been running since January.
01:05:28
Speaker
It will um right now it's scheduled to close in June. But if you are working on a project that promotes polka dot and the idea of decentralization and um a world based on truthful rather than trustful interactions, um then that is the place for you to go to get some funding for your project. And I think that is, that's in addition to our treasury. So it's separate to our treasury in a separate process, but just wanted to remind people that that's there. And also join us at Decoded and join us at the Web3 Summit, which are coming up this summer ah in July. That's Decoded in Brussels in August. That's the Web3 Summit in um Berlin.
01:06:26
Speaker
Fantastic. i I love the difference between truthful and trustful. I think that was very well put. um Thank you so much, Chrissy. That's our polka dot vision. No, it's very well put. It's so succinct, but very, very powerful. um Thank you so much for coming on. um I've had an amazing discussion and ah thank you for for the overview and for the detail. um And I wish you guys all the best. I'm going to keep following ah the the but the various projects and the development of Polk Dot and Kusama. um And I may just see you at the Web3 Summit in ah in August.
01:07:04
Speaker
Wonderful, Andre. And listen, thank you again for having me. It has been a discussion going down roads I did not anticipate. I'll love that and would welcome the opportunity to chat with you in London or um at the Web3 Summit or any other time. so And I have really enjoyed your Proof of Talk podcast and will continue to listen. And I'm just pleased that You know, a lawyer from Charleston, South Carolina, ah has been included in the esteemed lineup that I see. I know. Thank you so much. And thank you for all the kind words. I yeahp i would i would definitely yeah love ah having a chat in more detail, either London or or at the Web3 Summit, um or even doing this again, maybe sometime next year and and check in on all the progress that you guys have no doubt done by that point.
01:08:02
Speaker
Absolutely. It's going to be an exciting 2024 definitely with Polkadot 2.0 and then looking forward to Polkadot 3.0. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much and have a nice day everyone. Bye.