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#29 - AI and Decentralized Governance with Common co-founder Dillon Chen
37 Plays4 months ago
Dillon is the co-founder of Common, a platform designed to simplify decentralized governance. His journey into crypto began with mining Ethereum in college.
AI and the Rapid Evolution of Search Engines
The podcast begins with a discussion on the rapid advancements in AI, particularly new releases like Llama, Grok, and SearchGPT. The host is fascinated by how quickly AI evolves, introducing groundbreaking features almost monthly. Dillon shares his excitement for AI tools like Perplexity, a search engine that blends chat features with quick, context-based results. However, both acknowledge the challenge of AI’s "hallucinations"—when systems give inaccurate answers—and wonder how long it will take to overcome this flaw.
AI’s Role in Natural Interfaces and Future Tech
The conversation shifts to how AI is used in everyday life, with the host explaining his use of ChatGPT’s voice mode to assist with coding and gaming. Dillon is intrigued by this usage and suggests that voice could be a more natural interface in the future. They also explore the potential of neural devices like "The Crown," a non-invasive technology that could allow users to control devices with thought patterns. The possibilities for human-computer interaction seem endless.
AI and Crypto: The Coming Intersection
Dillon believes that as AI and crypto converge, exciting new applications will emerge, such as AI-powered agents that could participate in decentralized systems. He references OpenAI’s development framework, explaining how AI’s evolution from basic chatbots to complex agents could dramatically impact crypto ecosystems. The integration of AI into crypto could lead to automated governance models and smarter decision-making processes.
Simplifying DAO Governance
Dillon's platform, Common, is designed to make governance more accessible for decentralized organizations. Initially born out of his experience with Ethereum and the DAO, Common simplifies voting and governance processes by integrating forums, token-based voting, and proposal systems. Dillon highlights how Common solves the problem of fragmented decision-making in DAOs by providing a unified platform for discussion and action.
Common has already been adopted by organizations like LinksDAO, a decentralized golf course community, and 1Inch, a decentralized exchange. LinksDAO showcases how blockchain tools can be applied to real-world interests, while 1Inch’s recognized delegates program incentivizes active community participation, boosting engagement in governance.
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Transcript
Exploration of AI in Search and Tools
00:00:08
Speaker
Have you tried perplexity already? I have not tried perplexity. No. Have you tried it? Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's actually, it's, I would say it's my default search engine. Um, in general, like, yeah, I, and so like, I'm, I'm incredibly excited to try out search GPT. I haven't tried out Bing and and stuff like that. Um, but you know, when, uh, hopefully when AI and crypto meet, uh, there's going to be fine intersections there too, but, uh, yeah, the products.
00:00:35
Speaker
They stand by themselves. um My take on the open AI stuff, I mean, obviously the llama stuff is really, really incredibly great. Just open source AI, yeah you know really catching up to the frontier. you know But like the open AI thing, like if you follow the anon accounts, they're all kind of disappointed because, like oh, they thought, well, DeepMind released, was it alpha proof? right And so it's like, where's Q star? If you've heard that before. Um, and so it's, it was not disappointing from a product perspective, but maybe from like a, you know, like, Oh, are they pushing the edge? Like, are they gonna gonna drop GPT five and stuff like that? It was slightly disappointing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah. well it always I mean, it takes so much effort to to train a new model like this.
AI's Impact and Growth in Tech
00:01:22
Speaker
You you literally need you know entire server farms to to get something like that going, which is why NVIDIA has been doing so amazingly well. And it will probably continue to do well for as long as AI is going to exist. And I don't think it's a fact. I think it's here to stay. And we just see that with every other iteration of a new model or new use cases for the model. And ah not investment advice, but do you hold any NVIDIA stock?
00:01:46
Speaker
100%, no financial advice, buy it at your own peril. yeah yeah yeah yeah ah and So this perplexity stuff, is it is it like ah is like a search engine, ah like an AI search engine? I haven't used it.
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's AI search engine, you know, classic like, hey, you see this box and then you can kind of chat with it. It'll bring up like five links to summarize it. So like, you know, I would say like the Google stuff, like the Bing stuff and like search GPT, they're all very similar. And so, but like search is not really differentiating in the form factor. It's like, how fast is it and how good are the results? And from my usage, like I can talk with it and like when you need to like,
00:02:27
Speaker
do kind of like a quick calculation. For example, like you know I don't know, like light budgeting like, hey, like I'm trying to but purchase this couch. like Is it really worth it? I want to do some girl math on it maybe. um It can help do it in line as well as bring up, like oh, these are the average prices or whatever. That's a stupid example. That's a good example. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been i've been using the chat GPT app for that for that purpose. right I've been using it to kind of talk to it.
00:02:52
Speaker
ah and just asking random stuff. like I've been recently, I've been trying to do a new Elden Ring playthrough because the DLC is out and I've been trying to start from scratch again and kind of get into the DLC, right? So i'm ah I'm a bit of a completionist when I play games. I want to guy go and get all the achievements, get all the all the the items and those swords and stuff. So I find myself constantly talking to GPT, hey, do you know where I can find like the Moonblade, the Moonveil Kata and stuff? And he'll tell me, oh, you need to go to that area and get up, you know,
00:03:20
Speaker
get up on that legend and just pick up the loot and stuff. And what I've noticed is that when it works, it really works and it's it's amazing. But when it doesn't work, it can be really frustrating because a lot of times, not a lot, but a significant amount of times I'm being sent or I'm being given information that's completely inaccurate. um It still hallucinates. and And I think probably perplexity and all the others AI have a certain degree of hallucination. I'm just wondering how far away We are already if for all possible that we can completely remove that hallucination. Like I'm not an AI expert in in that field. So I don't really know exactly ah how I would go about removing that kind of error. Well, I actually, I mean.
00:04:02
Speaker
Like you said, smarter people than than me and you, like hopefully they'll figure it out. But I'm actually curious more on on your your usage of the voice mode. like and like so like you Because that's just like not a pattern that I've gotten in, whether it's like maybe I like to listen to music and things like that. And so like that's usually what's playing. And so I'm actually curious, like is it only when you do Elden Ring and stuff? or you like are you also kind of like using it as like a virtual office and like, oh, you know, if there's a research task, like you'll just have chat GPT listing kind of, or I don't know. I'm curious to hear. Yeah. Yeah. I i sometimes use it. i've trying I've been trying to incorporate the voice element in ah in my development of programming time as well. So if I need something that's not like a massive function or something that's really long and something that I can easily digest more like a high level concept, like, Hey,
00:04:50
Speaker
Can you explain to me how Monad works real quick? right And then I just ask you that and kind of I process it as I go through my code. I find that as it works. If I need more specific stuff or if I need you know assistance with a certain function or hey, you know build me this class or build me this interface, I'm going to have to most likely just get get it in text because I'm going to need the text as an output as well.
00:05:12
Speaker
um But I think we're getting to more, I think that the thing that I'm really excited about is that AI used across different devices in this form is going to create a more natural interface between us and machines. And voice is obviously one step, right? But then there can be
Innovations in Neural Devices and Predictions
00:05:30
Speaker
another step from there. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with something called the crown.
00:05:35
Speaker
it's um It's like a neural device, but unlike the neural link, you don't actually need to drill a hole in your brain to install it, right? You put it on your head and it captures the the electricity ah impulses of your brain, like the neural impulses.
00:05:51
Speaker
And you can then use a JavaScript SDK to connect to this thing and to program it. So all you need to do is you need to train it, though you can train it by getting it to detect certain thought patterns. If you constantly think of a cube moving up, you can train it to that to to detect that. And then at some point you can just think of that and it will, you can program it to do anything virtually, right? Cause it's a JavaScript SDK. We can build any library on top of it.
00:06:16
Speaker
Every time you you make that thought pattern, it can deliver something to you, and you can take it a step further. If that would be more advanced, you could even get it to detect language questions, you know thoughts that it can decode into into words or questions, and then you could interact with the web through just thinking about those questions. It sounds kind of crazy, but like it's not impossible.
00:06:40
Speaker
No, no i mean honestly, I'm there with you. and Actually, there's three things. and um and like First, I mean i kind of want to go through them just to get your quick responses and focus on the last thing because what you just brought up is the most interesting.
00:06:51
Speaker
um First, so just just so I understand your your kind of like usage, or like gp like you'll have your AirPods in or whatever, and then you'll just have like either your phone or chat GPT desktop, and you'll just have it always on in voice mode. Is that correct? kind of so It's not always on, it's just I have it on my phone, right and I go on the... like I literally go to the chat GPT app, yeah yep and then I tap. And then you'll do voice mode. I see. Right. Yeah. yeah Okay.
00:07:19
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And then the second thing... um there's And this is kind of just a reference to like what you said about like, um, AI is getting better and then hallucinating or like, hopefully less is like, I think I like this five step framework and like, obviously like we've seen it with self-driving cars and that was like, Oh, L1 autonomy versus like L5. And like, well, finally Waymo finally on the streets and stuff, which is really cool. Um, I think like two weeks ago, three weeks ago, and it wasn't like a crazy thing. It was just like how, I guess internally opening, I thinks about the development and it was like,
00:07:53
Speaker
chat bots chatbots, I guess like reasoners, agents, um or I want to say like innovators and then organizations. And so like, I really like that framework. um And it seems pretty practical. um But you know, really just test the course of like, yeah, they're working on reasoning now. And that's like maybe 10 prompts, right? And then agents, well, maybe hundreds, right? And I think that this is kind of where it gets into crypto. And maybe what we would do at Common is like,
00:08:20
Speaker
Okay, you're going to have multiple multiple agents while they still will need incentives. And then second, my was um it's just interesting. um But ah on the last thing that you kind of talked about, um um i mean I'm a big sci-fi fan and obviously like the world gets more sci-fi every day. And um I recently read Rick Kurzweil's singularity is nearer. OG inspiration, he released his update and you know when you talk about the crown, you know it's ah
00:08:54
Speaker
It is the world we're going. like so I believe it. it's ah it's It's happening, whether we like it or not, or you know maybe our kids will like it more or something like that. For sure. It's definitely going in that direction. I didn't read his update on the book, but I i heard him speak about the book. He was in the Joe Rogan podcast. He had a ah long conversation about the topic. and The thing that I found really interesting that he's still believes that I think he's 2040 or 2042 that according to him, we're going to to reach singularity. Now, for people that don't know, singularity is we're going to a million fold our current level of intelligence, the point that we are beyond humans, right?
00:09:33
Speaker
ah so That's just insane to to to quite grasp, right to to to believe really. um I do believe we've had like an an exponential growth in and you know technology and what we can do with it.
00:09:50
Speaker
It's just, yeah, I don't know, man. i I hope he's right. I just feel like some things are just a bit like this his theory of um reversing the aging process, right? According to him, we're going, what was that? Four four months, we're getting four months every year back. And within the next 15 years, he said that we will probably get the whole 12 months back in a year cycle, meaning that we would eventually stop aging. And at some point we'll reverse the aging process. 15 years is not a long time you think about it.
00:10:20
Speaker
here hint i'm I'm not sure exactly like where I stand with, with how reasonable that that that is. it's it's I mean, I agree with you just because it it belies like expectation. It just like feels crazy. But I mean, to a certain extent, he wasn't wrong on the human level reason. I won't say reasoning, right? But certainly we we have all experienced GPT-4, right? Yeah. And so it's worth taking into consideration and like adjusting, I feel like, and like obviously we're we're already talking about it.
00:10:50
Speaker
But hey, I've got my protein shake here you know trying to ah to stay healthy. um But you said something. Oh, on the intelligences, I'm like having an um a million full. This is how my brain works, but also recently.
00:11:05
Speaker
Like the metaphor, like whenever I try to think about like what a world looks like in that case, right? Post singularity, everyone talks about and like, you know, you you brought up near link and like, it's, oh, we have to merge with the machines, right? But in a case that some people don't choose to.
00:11:21
Speaker
I feel like there's always like two pictures that come to mind and one kind of most recently just because it was posted on Twitter was like the Amazon truck. Like there's a new Amazon tribe that just like ah came out of the rainforest and had, right you know, I think you saw that, right? It was cause like maybe a logging site, you know, sadly got like very close or something, but it's like, wow.
00:11:41
Speaker
um um you still there out sorry to You're talking about the Amazon tribe that got Starlink, got internet access. They were happy with it for a while and then they got addicted to pornography. Is that the one you're talking about? Oh, no, I didn't i didn't know about this. i would that's That's very, very interesting. I mean, publicly related, they like I guess um what I'm referencing is I saw on Twitter, I think this past week, and I feel like this happens like every once in a while. It's like an uncontacted Amazon tribe like stumbles out of the forest and you know was like captured by imaging and like they saw loggers or something like that near their iis like living site.
00:12:19
Speaker
and so I guess the metaphor I'm trying to draw is like, wow, like that is a way of life that I guess we have lived for thousands, thousands of years. and i mean Of course, like GDP per capita, whatever you want to say, intelligence has has increased and like we have a whole society. and so For the case of people who don't choose to merge with the machines, right like maybe it's just going to be like that. you know We're going to wake up one day and it's like, oh, wow, society has really changed. but Very sci-fi. 100%, yeah. I think it's going to be a choice and some people will just choose to live an organic lifestyle on an altar and everything. And I think it's, yeah, there's going to be different, just completely different realities. As there are today, people live, like you said, in wildly different ways, right? Like life in the city, completely different than life on a farm, right?
00:13:09
Speaker
Even though they kind of converge because you can still have all the farm elements, but you can have internet, and you can have like you know cars and other other technology, mobile phones and and all that. um It's all very fascinating and i really I'm really enjoying to see where it all goes and that there's there's you know there's a lot of people out there building amazing things um like yourself and like like your your own products that you're building with Common.
00:13:30
Speaker
um And I thought this might be actually be a good moment to kind of talk about um how you got into crypto and how are you got building a common basically. Yeah, definitely. um Well, you know from from the this part of the conversation, ah as you can tell, I'm i' also a really big fan of technology and and all its shapes and forms and thinking about the future.
Crypto Journey and Governance Challenges
00:13:51
Speaker
And I guess like back in 2013, so this was like high school going into college, one of the things I was thinking about or looking at and or just experienced was getting Bitcoin and purchasing it for the first time. Back then it was just like Bitcoins, right? Plural, um which I think is so funny.
00:14:07
Speaker
um It didn't really leave that too big of an impact on me like at that time, but like I think my real down the rabbit hole moment was when I first started mining on dorm electricity for ETH. It was like, oh, it's not just talking online with people. It's not just like getting this thing through you know a centralized you know coin base. I use that. Everyone has it.
00:14:28
Speaker
yeah It was like earning it and it's like participating in something. um That's kind of what inspired me and really kind of from there, it's been the the whole professional career um since college. So prior to kind of like working on this product specifically, um started of Commonwealth Labs. Commonwealth Labs product studio ah started in 2017, 2018 and we worked on a few different things. First thing was called Edgware.
00:14:57
Speaker
And we did a new token distribution method at the time. It was called ah the lock drop. And like just like folks launch layer twos and things like that, it's just deposit your ETH and get some new tokens. um And so at the time we had, I think like 3% of ETH locked up. Of all ETH. It was crazy. Of all ETH, yeah, at the time. That's crazy. crazy So you say you work with something called Edgware. What's Edgware?
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah, Edgware, so it's it's technically still live today, community run. But Edgware is and was um basically a Polkadot smart contract platform. And it was ah you know all ideally community run. And so 90% was allocated and given away through this lock drop mechanism, 5% in the treasury, 5% to like you know contributors at the time.
00:15:49
Speaker
and But I don't know, it's just interesting that as a time capsule, I think, and you know what has been taken up and what what stayed around. um But the thing that really captured my attention was like the the aspect of the coordination, um maybe bit less so, and like, kind of like oh, here's ah here's a general purpose contract platform.
00:16:09
Speaker
um The problem that we faced, problem that we saw, participating in the original Dow for listeners who who know or don't know, um there was the Dow back in 2016 and had more double digit percentages of ETH and ended up having a smart contract vulnerability. and Well, now we have the hard fork and that was a big thing.
00:16:32
Speaker
right um But the way to coordinate around that and decide if this was a thing to do, ah there's no ancient governance, something that we take for granted today. But like basically that problem of coordination, of voting, of talking and problem solving together is what most interested myself.
00:16:48
Speaker
And that really leads us to today. We wanted to solve our own problem, so we built common. So ah really in short, we're a forum with built-in governance and rewards. um So ideally, being able to launch or bring your own, um do token voting, do all these things and make sure all that stuff happens in one place. um That's the long and short of it and kind of, I don't know, what keeps you going.
00:17:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a cool story, man. And just go back for a second on on the the locked ETH in ah during the DAO times. There's actually a direct link there because the um the author of the DAO smart contract was actually working with Vitalik and with Gavin Wood on ah on on Ethereum as well. yeah His name is Christoph Zench. I had a chat with the guy and ah he's also um ah hes He built on Ethereum more specifically the C wrapper, I think C++ plus plus or C wrapper for Ethereum client, um but then they had some it had some financial issues back in 2016, 2015, 2016. They had to cut down all of the... like budget for most teams. So the only one that remained I think was the Golang team, um which is why that's the the Ethereum plan that they use that they used today. um So it's it's is not surprising that they had access to so much ETH because they were part of also of the of the of the foundation itself.
00:18:13
Speaker
at the time. she's pretty crazy to and juicy it's its juicy It's the most successful ICO that's ever been, probably, and it's it's incredible how much more disruptive it is on top of Bitcoin, right? Yeah. Wow. Takes me back. We've come a long way. I mean, obviously, eat ETF and stuff like that. It's crazy how yeah these cast of characters and and what's happened but yeah.
00:18:38
Speaker
it's also crazy how the market attitudes have changed because bitcoin and ethereum people people starting at the you know people starting with those at the at the very beginning you had almost like ah a distrust in the system, right? Like Bitcoin, the reason for Bitcoin was a response to the financial crisis of 2008. That's why it was launched in 2008, distrust in in the government, the global financial system, and this kind of we can do it ourselves. We don't need you know a global, a centralized government to in between, write cash transfers. um And then all of a sudden, 2024, the market's like, oh, yeah, BlackRock's on board now. Yay, guys, we made it. It's it's interesting to notice you know how it all started and where we ended up. And I guess it was inevitable. I like to think of it as still a third way. right And I think um it's the same thing. i think Someone on our team said this is like,
00:19:38
Speaker
ah
00:19:41
Speaker
it's Okay, classic metaphor of like web two feeds, right? is the Are we controlling the feed or is the feed controlling us, right? It's in the same way, right? It's like, okay, is is Ethereum running? i don't Obviously it's not running BlackRock, right? But they they have to hold the native ether. They have to use custody. They have to sorry like they have to participate in the ecosystems, right? And so in that way, it's a third way and maybe the system um becomes a little bit more neutral over time.
00:20:10
Speaker
so Yeah, so it's interesting to see those dynamics play out, though. I totally agree with you. Yeah, I think it's just people have different expectations of what adoption is going to be. I think people expect that adoption is going to be, oh, fuck the system. We're just doing it ourselves. And then eventually realize that, like realistically, adoption is and an organic integration. You're making space for this technology too to exist within the current system.
00:20:40
Speaker
um But yeah it often starts with like the ideological, right the ideal case scenario, the thing you can't quite reach, but you kind of always move towards. And then you settle for something that's achievable, which is where we're at. It's not a bad thing. It's it's a good thing. it's It's the only thing that could have happened, I think. And you know and there's still time, but I guess like the thing that I i feel like um you know still captures my attention and um is this ah
00:21:12
Speaker
ah there's There's pockets of it it. It shows up differently in terms of the DFU attitude or whatever, like it could be on a different chain. It could be on um things like that, but I feel like it's still around. um But I don't know. this is And this is kind of on a personal note, but it's like that ability to still coordinate around any idea, around anything is like the the thing that still gets me. And it's like, well, that's hopefully what I want to continue to build around, but I think we'll get there. And it doesn't just have to be like,
00:21:44
Speaker
fully adopted by by ah or just fairly financialized there's really There are other use cases, and I'm excited about those. Yeah, I know for sure, 100%. So tell me what are, in your opinion, the the founding principles of of Common and what's the, I guess, that the biggest issue that you guys are trying to solve right now?
00:22:07
Speaker
The, so the way I like to think about it is definitely those concentric rings of like problems. So first kind of last um started with our own. So it's like, hey, we have do have to run Edgeware. It's totally community run. So how are we going to make decisions? um How do we need a UI to vote, ah literally? yeah um And then but um outside of that, like we just talked about the DAO, like I remember when the, like, I think literally like coin.vote or actually don't remember the page, but
00:22:39
Speaker
Snapshot before snapshot, right? So it was like a ah ah nice signaling ah page to show the ah you know yes or nos on like, should we hard fork or not? um It feels like those those were kind of like other things that people were trying to deal with, right? Because Twitter, because Coindesk, as much as like these, they're great channels for distribution. They're not great for decision making.
00:23:00
Speaker
um And then honestly, I think you can kind of frame the problems that we faced that kind of crypto is dealing with. And I mean, I still think advancing with DAOs, with on-chain voting, with these other things, with coins in general, it's a problem that society is facing, right? So the public spaces are really noisy. Obviously, there's a lot of polarization based here in the States. And these past few weeks have been pretty intense for the election. Yeah.
00:23:31
Speaker
And so just making decisions and talking and like knowing what's truth, what's not, yeah, it's that's kind of the problem space that I feel like that we deal with. So from our own to crypto to to hopefully society in the long term.
00:23:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's ah that's a cool thing to focus on. there's there's You're absolutely right. There's just so much noise. And I feel like people, you know everyone has a voice, everyone has an opinion that they can voice freely out there, um but but it makes it incredibly difficult to find some sort of cohesion. And and usually, you know when you have when especially when you're talking about topics like politics, that just tends to divide people more than bring people together.
00:24:11
Speaker
And platforms like Twitter, platforms like social media platforms, I feel like they divide society a lot more than than it appears to be in real life. like If you're in real life and you're talking to someone who's very maybe you're you maybe you're a Democrat, they're a Republican, like you're not just going to go and throw insults at each other and you know just just then turn your back at them and like, I've blocked you, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. and you know yeah I feel like it only allows people to express that side of them themselves online because of the anonymity and because of the fact that there's no real repercussions to behaving antisocially online in a sense. like they don't like People, I don't feel like they see the digital world as real. I feel like they see it as this kind of maybe, I don't know, free for all kind of wild west in a way.
00:25:01
Speaker
Which is interesting because in many ways, it's a lot more controlled. Every action that you perform online is more controlled and more monitored than than actions in real life. I agree with you. And I think like ah the phrase that kind of comes to mind is like making it real and like bringing value on chain. And obviously, like Bitcoin, if you want to use the metaphor of like ah digital ah Bitcoin as digital gold, it's a coin and it and it works for that use case, it brings that value online.
00:25:28
Speaker
um or Online, I should say. I was going to say blockchain, but um online still works. And like, I think like the thing, so because like what I described was like such like a society thing is like, oh, how are you going to change the fabric of society and how people discuss? I feel like it's around like giving, giving like a form to those ideas. So really coins. Um, so like there's this meme coin phenomenon that's happening. There's these prediction markets. Of course we've seen kind of like layer ones and alternative kind of, you know, collections to show NFT collections to show like.
00:26:05
Speaker
what people like and dislike. But those are those are ways to make your voice real. And that enough gives space and I feel like that's already a more productive way to like talk about things rather than just like tweet about things or or things like that. So small steps, small steps.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah. so So would you say, is it is it ah what what makes it real in your opinion? Is it the community aspect of it? Is it the monetary aspect? Is it the fact that people have to put a dollar behind their stake effectively just saying, hey, you know I actually am invested in this rather than you know just doing it just by tweeting stuff?
00:26:43
Speaker
Ah, that's a good question. I mean, i I would say kind of all three, but like I can talk you through maybe just like top down. So it's like, okay, if online made like sending information ah back and forth in real time and like gave the power for everyone to do that, like on chain does it. um and it does it with value. That's maybe not like a ah groundbreaking thing to say, but okay, what is value? Like you said, it's the dollar um or it's money. It could be social influence and then it could be like power. So like the vote. And so anything that you need to sign, right? Literally is something that I feel like has value. So signature on a lease, on a receipt, right a monetary transfer, or I don't know, like a
00:27:33
Speaker
a power of attorney. That's like a you know a thing that that some might have to do with end of life care or things like that. um Yeah, anything that has that weight being brought on chain, I would say is good. It's just as tough to deal with and um in terms of UI and UX, but I think we're stepping in the right direction with frames, FarCaster, things that that we're thinking about internally.
00:27:56
Speaker
but um I kind of digress from your your question so you can feel free to rein me in. Yeah. No, it's cool. as i was I was interested in also in the, obviously, decision-making process and governance is a huge topic for you, I'm guessing personally as well as for the organization in general. um What are the, I guess, mechanisms that common allows users to to do, I guess, in order to simplify the decision-making process and to make it more transparent and and easier to to navigate?
00:28:30
Speaker
So the um I guess like the first thing kind of starting with the the problem is like, oh, the information is in a bunch of different places. And second, it's really hard to vote in general, or it used to be, um ah just because like you might have to log in with a CLI and like directly like interact with your terminal to vote.
00:28:50
Speaker
um um You have to aggregate the opinions of different people to make an informed decision. um So an idea might start on Twitter ah like we kind of talked about. And ideally we bring that all into one place. And so a solution that we've come to is basically like a forum. so People ah might know us as a discourse replacement, um so you might see us e-logging through your wallet. You can have multiple topics on the forum, um and then you can turn it to a snapshot proposal and then on-chain vote.
00:29:23
Speaker
um There's so many nuances to that. like oh um and In some ways, while like we can talk about core development on Ethereum, like not everyone attends the core dev call. right And so sometimes you need to gate spaces. And so whether it's token ownership or off-chain actions, um those are ways to gate a topic.
00:29:46
Speaker
um Yeah, so those are those are always the things that we're kind of like innovating on, essentially. And it's been pretty successful. um Thankfully, we've been able to weather, I guess, some bear markets. We had a peak yeah gosh crazy um we hit a peak of,000 weekly actives last quarter, or this quarter, I guess. Wow. That's huge. Congrats. um Yeah, it's it's been, it's been fun. Um, and who knew so many people wanted to talk about things that move their community forward. Um, I was trying to expand, but really it comes back to that as like, whatever it takes to make that process from like tweet to conversation to vote to, you know, pushed on chain action or executed on chain action. We want to help with, um, yeah. And it's been a fun ride.
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah, and it's I think it's a great um it's a great tool that in a you know space that's becoming you know more globalized, but at the same time more tribalized, it's a great tool to help with from small organizations, small groups of people building stuff for for you know for fun to big, ah really big projects like Ethereum. I'm guessing it's ah it's a tool that anyone or any any community could use if they wanted to use it.
00:31:07
Speaker
Yeah. And and like it's interesting to see the ins and outs of like small to large as well. like um But at the end of the day, it is people ah still moving things forward. We don't have those chat bots. We don't have reasoners yet. And so at the end of the day, it's a thread. It's a conversation. And it's a vote. And so ah just building around that ah core loop is something that we work towards. Sorry, I'm going to mute myself real quick. yeah That's cool.
00:31:40
Speaker
Um, so I noticed on your website that you've had, uh, you had two case studies that you you published recently, one with, uh, one inch and one with, uh, links Dow. And I thought links that was really interesting because it's, uh, uh, it's, it's a Dow for, I think golf courses. If I got that right. I'm really curious about like your
Decentralized Communities and Governance Models
00:32:02
Speaker
involvement within helping this, this decentralized golf community organize themselves.
00:32:12
Speaker
i think you're still le mute by the way ah can you hear me now yeah okay um that's i mean thank you for bringing that up it's it's one of the things that i think thought is i don't know the one of the cooler things just because i think we I always think about um ah the on-chain world being digital, digital gold, ah new DeFi, um or NFTs, or meme coins and things like that.
00:32:45
Speaker
And so to see a group kind of go from you know a crowdfund um to kind of for different memberships to talking about purchases of different golf courses on the site is just super cool. um So they've been around for, wow, I don't want to get this wrong.
00:33:05
Speaker
2021, I want to say, do just started link style. And now works with, I guess Koop is helping with it. But um that's been just cool to see. Because like you said, that's an example of like a a smaller community, so to speak, rather than like a a one inch that you kind of talked about. um And then I mean, on the one inside, like,
00:33:27
Speaker
A big fan of the product ah when when I needed to swap and things like that um I feel like the thing that I've found most interesting has been like the recognized delegates program um to help drive forward kind of conversation Right. um So yeah, and are are people familiar with this maybe or do you think I should kind of go into it? Yeah, I think going into it a bit it would help sure yeah, so um I think one of the ah Voter participation is low in general, right? So whether it's democratic elections or even on chain, it's for any number of reasons. It's hard to use the UX. it's It's tough to understand kind of the issues and then, well, life gets in the way. And one of the things that I think One Inch has done really well is beyond, you know, first like being able to onboard to us um kind of from
00:34:21
Speaker
from the other big grill in the room on of discourse. They also started ah to with a recognized delegates program. um And so what is that? It's basically like, hey, if you're participating, you have some amount of one inch your ownership um to um active participation and you're actively driving the community forward.
00:34:41
Speaker
you'll you'll be compensated. And so I feel like that that's been really cool to see kind of um as part of ah both like the end to end and onboard. yeah um Yeah, so small to large communities, I feel like it's been, it's just been so cool. but Yeah, things to coordinate around.
00:35:00
Speaker
And I'm guessing you're in a position where it's like common is that kind of product. yeah I would, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like an infrastructure layer or infrastructure kind of service where you obviously get all of these other um organizations to then build their decision-making on top of your tool using your tool using common.
00:35:22
Speaker
So that puts you in a unique situation that you can actually see what are the cool communities that are coming out, ah maybe more so than than other people in the crypto world would. um And I'd be curious to hear some some examples of what are the like maybe the funny, cool, weird kind of communities that have come out of, ah you know, that are using common that maybe not a lot of people know about.
00:35:49
Speaker
Oh, man, there's so many. Let me think.
00:36:01
Speaker
So I guess like the first thing that comes to mind is like we usually do have a lot of like a lot of the larger ones. um and And the reason for that is a lot of folks like do use us as ah as a forum like when competition gets more serious, so to speak, or or gets larger to have that kind of noise free place.
00:36:18
Speaker
Um, but the things we started to see, so the way we think about things, um, I guess it was like, Oh, like we're trying to create engagement loops for these communities or help with this, right. And governance is one of them from creating the post from voting. And then ideally maybe be some reward at the end. And, uh, two other loops are like, Oh, like, you know, contest. So what's the top post of the week, something that Reddit does. Um, but the first loop is like launching.
00:36:48
Speaker
And as we we've rolled out like products that kind of start from the beginning, so to speak, and we've definitely seen smaller ones. um There's a beer, a dao, that's been created. What else? That's just the first thing that comes to mind, yeah. i love a beard thouw um What's the name of the beer dao? I think it's literally just beer man, I want to say. Classic.
00:37:16
Speaker
And um this is so funny. There's actually a Beerman.com, so like ah not product placement or product advertising, but that exists outside of that.
00:37:28
Speaker
um Other things, I mean, DeSci, so like VitaDAO, you know, the world is larger than DeFi. um We don't have that many NFT projects, but like the treasure DAOs of the world, um we will have some meme coins that we'll be launching soon. So again, not financial advice, but I think that's a super interesting kind of like both category and then use case of like how people are engaging.
00:37:56
Speaker
um both of their product and and the ecosystem. So as those kind of come out, I'll probably tweet as a follow up to this. That's cool. that that is That is seriously cool. Obviously, there's going to be so many unprecedented use cases for for for common that yeah you know you wouldn't expect until you see people onboarding like, huh, you're doing that. Wow. um is there is there um s Sorry to cut you off. I'm curious, like is there some like pie in the sky things that you wish to exist as either projects, protocols, or I don't know, things? like Those are the things I'm always interested in.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah. there are Well, when it comes to governance, like i'm I'm fascinated in the idea of of governance in general and and creating um a governance process that is fair and without ah without bad actors or or with keeping that as a minimum, ah and also without corruption, right? so for ah While I've been thinking about this, a solution right to actually govern nations, right a different form of governance than the one we have right now, um because politicians um and you know are tend to be sometimes corrupt or willing to to serve their own interests.
00:39:16
Speaker
that creates a less than fair environment where you're expected that these are are experts in the field that are looking out for people, but it turns out that they're looking out for themselves. And then, you know, if people have to benefit from that, it's more almost like a side, almost like an afterthought, right? Like everyone in power wants more power. They don't want or very few of them ever want to do the will of the people, right?
00:39:41
Speaker
And I feel like people feeding in to vote, going to vote doesn't really change the process that much. It's usually the same kind of, right, you've changed the president and then maybe the cabinet changes, but then ultimately the people that were in power at the and NSA and CIA and you know all these other agencies are going to be the same people that have been in power for 20 years and the the the the status quo is going to continue, right? so I've always been really interested in a form of governance for for nations that is fair. right And I think where were are where we are today is definitely better than when we were a couple hundred years ago, um but it's far from ideal. right And you can take examples from different areas, from different points in history, and some of them could probably be applicable today. One idea that I that i like
00:40:33
Speaker
is Plato's Republic and his idea of philosopher kings, right? Like getting people, training them up whose sole purpose is, okay, you're going to be one of the decision makers for this nation's future. So we're going to take you from really young and and give you the best education, give you everything that you need to develop into a a human being that has like qualities that are considered to be good, right?
00:40:58
Speaker
um that's That's one example. I would have to see some more variation of that. Even even ah you know to see some kind of virtual um representations or just someone running mock tests on what would the world be like if we change governments to be from this to this or if we reduce and corruption. you know so That's something that I'm constantly coming up with. and I think that potentially bringing, you know, at least bringing voting on chain online, even people can't even vote online. Like we've got people um I know I have a few friends that ah have to vote for the U.S. elections coming up November. They live in London. So they have to go through this process where it takes them weeks to submit their ballot because they have to do it by mail and half of the time it arrives, half it doesn't. And ah it's it's super difficult.
00:41:48
Speaker
I think it even even starting there, making voting online is probably a start and then we can deal with corruption. Well, no, I mean, honestly, the things that you've talked about, I have so many thoughts on and it's It's really the truth of the problems that we face and like, especially like, and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Like our online spaces are only adding to it, but like sometimes like electronic voting, they could be the answer. Um, some, some shout outs here. Like there's, there's some really good work, at least here in the States around e-voting, um, like voting works, um, and stuff like that. And again, it's, it's kind of what you talked about of like, Oh, sometimes governments are the last to change. And certainly the last to adopt e-voting and,
00:42:32
Speaker
um But super, super great stuff. um There's a lot of like interesting things both around encryption, and both around just like the OPSEC of dealing with like ah it. Like, do you still need to go to the voting site? Is it totally mobile that people are thinking about very, very deeply?
00:42:50
Speaker
Um, but I mean, maybe the more general comment that I feel like is interesting and like, hopefully like, and the reason I asked is like, um, it was like, one, that's what crypto kind of is. It is a grand experiment. Um, both in terms of,
00:43:06
Speaker
uh, just new institutions. Um, and like, uh, I, that is actually one thing that I also hope to see is like at least within crypto and then, well, hopefully we can replicate this, uh, in other forms as, um, both, well, crypto gets more accepted on wall street and other, other industries as that form of governance getting rolled out too. Right. Um, so it doesn't have to be one person.
00:43:31
Speaker
or sorry, one coin, one vote. It could be you know based on direct usage, right? It could be based on of the product, I mean. um It could be based on like contributions on GitHub. um Those could be things that directly respond.
00:43:45
Speaker
um and Yeah, I don't know. so It's cool, and like I'm definitely really happy to see kind of just like the continued development of this, more experiments, more coins, and I feel like that continues to drive innovation forward.
00:44:02
Speaker
oh Yeah, 100%. And every time you see ah an organization that does things differently that that works, it's another you know confirmation that a different form of governance is probably okay. And we have tools now where we can do things that were completely impossible in in the past. right that you could technically You could make it so easy for people to vote and submit their their feedback and thoughts that you could actually have a ah deep understanding of of everyone's opinion. And you can quantify that, you can take that through machine learning, you can visualize it, you can plot it, you can really get ah such a really, really good grasp of of the general consensus that you were not able to in the past.
00:44:42
Speaker
um Which actually brings me to ah to a question um about this. um Do you guys offer any of that visualization of ah like being able to to view people's you know thoughts on on ah on a subject? ah the The honest answer is right now, no. um I would definitely be interested to see and hear kind of what folks have. um That said,
00:45:08
Speaker
Uh, every, uh, posts, every thread, every obviously vote is already, um, on chain and signed. Um, and we're, we have, uh, a very soon to be open kind of managed API ah to make that all that data like super easy and adjustable. And so whether it's plugging that data into GPT or clutter or what have you, I'd be interested to see that. And then we can bring that back into the product. Um.
00:45:32
Speaker
I don't know, like what ah what kind of visualizations like do you find to be effective? Like, is it like the word clouds or there's also so many nuance when it comes to like types of positions and like, or against certain things. And especially when it comes to like a thousand word posts um and things like that. So yeah, I don't know. and I'd be curious to hear.
00:45:54
Speaker
Yeah. well Well, with a forum, I'm thinking like some form of a visualizing sentiment analysis would be really interesting because yeah you can only gain so much from yes, no, or abstain and abstains the weirdest one because there's nothing really to, you know, that you can analyze. There is the absence of.
00:46:11
Speaker
of of information right and I think you could contextualize some of the some of the sentiments in the forum in the over the discussion thread by by running it through some kind of ml right sentiment analysis you could use. ah but not as necessarily ai we could use like ah ah there are there were tools that were machine i mean there was machine learning way before AI that that was kind of doing sentiment analysis on things. And you detect topics, you could detect the general feeling and emotions, and you could maybe get a
00:46:44
Speaker
a contextual understanding of the voting weights, like, okay, it's 55%, yes, 45%. No, we're not yet a super majority, but what is the actual, you know, how did we get here? What are people actually feeling, right? Are we are they feeling, well well, I'm going to vote yes, because this this is the best option out of a bad situation. Situation or am I genuinely excited about this? You know, there's a lot of nuance in in in like behind a vote even if you're thinking about, you know voting for like presidential Candidates, sometimes you're just choosing the the lesser of two evils. Sometimes I Don't know how often that is. but Sometimes there's a good candidate that comes out and that's a completely different sentiment But technically you've done the same thing you give them a thumbs up. Mm-hmm. Yeah and the difference there
00:47:30
Speaker
a That's a good point, and it brings up yeah it brings up a lot of thoughts. it's like you know the The way I think about kind of what you said is, i mean at least in the product sense, like but how would i productize it is like,
00:47:46
Speaker
um is a tool for like coalition building, essentially, and so like how to like bring call it bring better delegates to, to like the I don't want to say the market, but I'll just say the market. um Because in general, yeah, the participation is low and For better or for worse, it's it's still mediated through people who who are thinking about the protocol on a day-to-day basis. um And so like how can they best present their arguments based on the sentiment? How can they garner more delegations based on this? I think is like one way I could definitely see it kind of being up taken up. So I'm going to take this back to the team. I don't know. It sounds interesting. Yeah.
00:48:32
Speaker
And I'll say, yeah, no, it's good stuff. It's good stuff. Sweet. I meant to ask that I got carried it away and I forgot, what chains do you actually support with Common? and Yeah, so ah it's all good. I mean, I love the conversation so far.
00:48:49
Speaker
um ah Obviously, ah Ethereum and our EVM chains. So we're not on we don't have a deployment on all EVM chains, but you know we're we're happy to. um kind of second are kind of Cosmos SDK based chains. So we port, yeah, it's been it's been fun to see also just like the differences and the ecosystems and literally like you said, governance styles, how they vote, what the impacts of those things are.
00:49:17
Speaker
um We have some support for Polkadot Chains, of course, still. And then we have just onboarded Solana. We don't have too many active communities there, but, well, we'd love to. And I think it's ah it's a really cool ecosystem. Also, actually in London, I feel like there's ah a vibrant scene there for Solana stuff.
00:49:39
Speaker
There is, their there 100% is. And I feel like the meme coin ecosystem is has shifted towards Solana. So I expect that you're probably going to see some of these ah some of the ones that survive when there are no rug bulls that might and but might manage their governance.
00:49:55
Speaker
on common, you never know. It's been a while west. like um I'm not investing in meme... Well, investing is a good is ah is a big word. I'm not gambling on meme coins, but I have followed like kind of like the latest meme coins that are coming out, and and I feel the situation's getting a bit weird with rug pulls that happen. Something's launched 20 minutes later, it's just rug pulls.
00:50:19
Speaker
um But then again, I guess that's what happens when when you don't have an authority to tell people, hey, you can't do that. Instead, the SEC is concentrated on on just labeling everything cake as ah as a security and making life harder for everyone apart from this camera. So actually profit massively from this kind of thing.
00:50:39
Speaker
Yeah. i you know there's I wish, I mean platform and platform side, like because there's so many embedded problems, like you said, like from from users that we've talked through. There's one, devs should do voluntary locks. And of course, like it's kind of like ah a cat and mouse game. It's like, oh, they could lock at this amount of tokens, but they could hide behind other addresses.
00:51:01
Speaker
So is there a way for like the dev to like really be truthful in that circumstance? The percentage of tokens locked could be like one cool thing, but just really to your former point of like, um things kind of get, always get more serious, like whiff or bonk, right? Like everything is like, these are real cool ecosystems, right? And it's not just a coin anymore. um And at the end of the day, like that's, that's kind of the story of crypto, right?
00:51:31
Speaker
Bitcoin started on a listserv, and I mean, out of like the cyberpunk kind of communities. And same things are happening with meme coins. And so, um I don't know, I was trying to make a joke about meme coin, stable coin, or something like that, but stuff is getting real. And yeah, as long as we can make it through a wild west period.
00:51:54
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Well, there's I think with meme coins, the interesting thing is the community because with things like Bitcoin, community gathers around a very strong idea,
Understanding Meme Coins and Community Dynamics
00:52:07
Speaker
right? A very strong ideology. You know, it's about peer-to-peer decentralized money, electronic money, right? With his dog with hat.
00:52:16
Speaker
Like, hey guys, so we've had like it's it's a very different kind of, and that also resonates with people, right? And it there's a lot in there. there's like there's so There's a social science that can be applied with that. And and it's one thing that kind of also fascinates people, confuses me about meme coins, is that ah how do you get people to rally behind something that virtually had no meaning before you created it? this it's It's an interesting mechanism there.
00:52:44
Speaker
I, you know, it's actually, and so this is, as I think about like the sentiment analysis stuff, like, Oh, like, I mean, I actually feel like that's a ah real, probably even maybe a more applicable products in there. It's like, Oh, how many literally, I mean, of course, like we could just say like,
00:53:02
Speaker
let's look at just like the discord of XYZ meme coin, whatever it is. And so it's like how many how many people said rug pull, right? like And so just like, just to start to quantify that. But um I feel like the the thing, and this is really where I where i hope for for crypto and like how like I see us honestly like trying to like go to like help influence like society is at large is in the same way that like I'll use the internet metaphor again. right so like yeah The internet was like really good at sending information back and forth and who know who knew? like People love, apparently, ah cat memes, right?
00:53:41
Speaker
yeah only you know web two is cat you know love cat but Web3, it's been dog coins, of course. um But yeah, what what came after is like more serious stuff, and so but they don't have to start serious. And so creating the coin around that, creating the community around that, doing the sentiment stuff and then becoming real, we definitely want to be a strong part of that, both from launching too to the the governance side. And so, yeah, I don't know. like ah Hopefully we can do a another conversation five years from now and talk about this, and we you know we'll be we'll have ah our AI chatbots assisting with us as well. They'll be participating and voting on our behalf, and I don't know, we'll be making millions of dollars and having them ah invest in their new coins on our behalf or something like that that's been an interesting world.
00:54:33
Speaker
You'll get all the information just just by thinking about it. we Exactly. We're just telepathically sending thoughts to each other and and we're going to have this middleware that's going to produce them into audio so that people listen to or maybe just archives them as, I don't know, as as abstract thoughts that people can just internalize without having to listen to them. It's the wild world. I know kung fu, right?
00:55:01
Speaker
Would that be the first skill that you learned? I mean, um you know from the matrix, it's not a bad skill. like you know Streets can be dangerous, but so worth knowing. Not a bad skill. Although I always thought that scene had a... ah To me, I understand that you can train you can you can train your brain to understand something.
00:55:18
Speaker
But you can't train your muscles to understand something unless you perform that, right? Like, how would you how would you be able to learn kung fu simply by downloading books of kung fu into your brain right without training your muscle memory to understand that? And sometimes even training your muscles, sometimes you just need core strength.
00:55:37
Speaker
Yeah, um I know. do ah Do you follow Brian John? Like, the only thing that comes to mind, and I'm actually... bio hacker do yeah the guy he um i I actually don't know the vote of these signs on this. I could be a charlatan kind of talking about this, but like you know he does he has like a muscle stimulation things for his abs until it simulates a thousand crunches or whatever without you getting sore. You don't get sore because there's no lactic acid buildup, but it still doesn't build that pathway. yeah At least you have one, two problems solved maybe if if the muscle stimulation works.
00:56:15
Speaker
But yeah, you're right. That muscle memory. I don't know. That's interesting. Yeah. Another topic. We need a research staff for that. We got to start with something, so we'll figure it out. 100%. Well, listen, um what do you guys have planned for, I guess, then this year and the next year in terms of ah in terms of features, in terms of things that you want to announce, in terms of everything new and exciting coming up at Common? Yeah. so ah but it's It's a wild world that wide world out there, um lots of new coins, lots of new, kind of like um I guess, comms channels, right ways to vote and stuff like that. um so Number one, which would be like opening up integrations in a permissionless way, um hopefully, um both managed first and then um things beyond that.
00:57:04
Speaker
um One thing that we kind of talked about earlier in this call is like, okay, the ah core dev call is just core devs. So like, how do you kind of gate these things with things that already happen on chain? So, you know, an API or app store would kind of be one. And then the second thing um would be just kind of creating more of these engagement loops. So governance is one and recognized elegance is one way to incentivize that contests.
00:57:34
Speaker
to kind of like ah find the best idea of the week for a topic or something like that or best meme. um Doing that across other comms channels like Farcaster, like Twitter, like Telegram, like Discord, um just to meet people where they're at. And then ah last is really launching, you know, thinking about like, hey, like let's try to bring an idea on chain and make it real, real time, right? Because the coin, the community, and the vote, ah ideally that can all happen in one place. And it's not just an ICO, ideally. It hopefully can be something where, well, people are are making whatever they want real um with a set of folks all around the world. I think those would to be the two things is opening ourselves up and then kind of expanding the the loops that people can participate on in the product and protocol.
00:58:26
Speaker
That's very cool. And is Common itself a DAO or any plans to to decentralize? So we do have a set of smart contracts now. They're they're deployed on on some EVM chains. um I think we're early. And like I feel like we're taking the same approach in terms of like how projects are um I don't know, more more product-focused projects. um So kind of mirroring that approach. But there is definitely a place for communities to participate, um both you know from the feedback that we take in to ah governance of these contracts. So I'm definitely curious and thinking about ah those things and you know hope to work with the community in a short and medium and long term. So we'll definitely see. I don't know. It could be cool.
00:59:15
Speaker
No, that sounds very cool. That sounds very cool. um And where's the best place for people to get started with Common if they want to understand it better or if they want to start building their own community? Yeah, they can go to common.xyz. And then from there, ah they can, you know, feedloop few clicks away from starting a community.
00:59:37
Speaker
um And if you wanted to to reach out to me or find us on Twitter or FarCaster, I'm dillchen. And we're common.xyz also on Twitter and just common on FarCaster. So pretty simple. But there's so many different things that we talked about, you know, different communities that we see on it. ah We got us started, researched out to ah Figure out different governance systems um What else did we talk about like different agents that can help invest in different meme coins? um Yeah, just like stuff like those are the things that we we hope to see ah So if you're interested in those things, hey, please reach out. Please start a community
01:00:21
Speaker
Please start a community, yeah. um Definitely with the research that I'm super interested in. I like to see it happen. Let's do it. Awesome, man. Listen, I had a great i great conversation and I always love products in crypto that are are concerned with adding to the to the overall crypto ecosystem. And I feel like Covid is one of them. It's something that everyone can potentially use. And and it's just like, you know how Cosmos is sort of can be the gel for Web3 to bring it all together. And this could be like the governance layer, if you want. Is the government is governance layer a term yet? If not, I think it's ah it's a cool term. It could be us. You know, it's a governance is governance is social and it's a
01:01:07
Speaker
It's one thing to drive your community forward. That'd be very important. And thank you so much for your kind words. It means a lot. And it's what we try to and do every day. Awesome. well Well, thanks again. And thanks again for joining. dan and I had a great chat. And we'll speak soon, I'm sure. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye, everybody.