Transcript
Speaker: Hey, hey, you're listening to the Let's Heal Already podcast for the sometimes impatient, sometimes cranky person doing some healing.
Speaker: And I'm your host, JR. I'm an author, actor and speaker from Far Rockaway, New York.
Speaker: And on this podcast, you'll hear me cover ground on a variety of topics from mental wellness and emotional literacy to blackness, to masculinity and femininity, to ending misogyny and patriarchy, to last but not least, bisexuality and ending sexual shame.
Speaker: Welcome, welcome, welcome, everybody.
Speaker: So I'm really excited because I have a special guest here with me today.
Speaker: This is Mel.
Speaker: Welcome, Mel.
Speaker: Hey, thank you for having me.
Speaker: Yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker: And so today we're going to be talking about Black boyhood.
Speaker: I'm really excited.
Speaker: I feel like this topic is in great hands.
Speaker: Can you just let everyone at home listening know more about
Speaker: more about what you do and more about like how you talk about black boyhood or black masculinity on your platforms?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Once again, happy to be here.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: So yeah, my name is Mel.
Speaker: I hate the word content, but I make content on TikTok.
Speaker: I've been making videos on TikTok for about, I think two years now.
Speaker: And I talked about patriarchy from a black feminist lens.
Speaker: And yeah, I got into this around the pandemic.
Speaker: The pandemic was a slow time for me, a slow time for everybody.
Speaker: You've had a lot of time in the hands to, you know, read, take in new information and things like that.
Speaker: And that's pretty much what I did.
Speaker: Yeah, I was on Twitter a lot on social media and I was seeing a lot of
Speaker: Honestly, I'm just going to be honest, I was seeing a lot of violence.
Speaker: Seeing a lot of violence that was being done by people that look like us, Black men toward women.
Speaker: And that really prompted me to just be curious.
Speaker: It was curiosity that spawned from seeing a lot of these things on social media, curiosity about how we got here, how Black men got in this position to the point where they were
Speaker: You know, just being violent for maybe not getting someone's number or anything like that.
Speaker: And again, I was just curious.
Speaker: That led me to do some Googles and asking questions.
Speaker: And it led me to words like patriarchy and feminism.
Speaker: And it led me to books and YouTube videos and all these things.
Speaker: In my learning, I started to see how this thing, patriarchy, affected not only men, of course, but also boys and young men.
Speaker: And, yeah, obviously I am a mass person.
Speaker: I was a boy at one point in my life.
Speaker: So it's definitely something I'm passionate about, definitely something.
Speaker: that's important to me.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker: I guess my first question, and this is like a journal prompt that I do with my audience at the start of episodes.
Speaker: Basically, I ask a question and I answer it first and then
Speaker: You can definitely answer when you're ready.
Speaker: I guess, what's the first thing that comes to mind when you hear Black boyhood?
Speaker: And for me, it is sort of like innocence, but also, I don't know if the word is dread, maybe like dread, fear.
Speaker: So it's like both.
Speaker: It's all of it wrapped up because I guess like thinking back, I'm like, I know what's coming.
Speaker: Like, you know what I mean?
Speaker: So it's kind of both.
Speaker: It's kind of like innocence but dread at the same time.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: I think those would be my...
Speaker: two answers, honestly.
Speaker: Just purity, innocence, love, but also fear.
Speaker: Because like you said, there is something like what's to come and what possibly can come.
Speaker: So yeah, I would say purity, innocence, love, but also...
Speaker: fear, but also protection, you know, wanting to protect that innocence, that purity and that love, you know, protected from what protect that from patriarchy from society.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: So yeah, I think that would be my answer as well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Um, I'm just thinking back to like what, what you shared and everything about the violence that you were seeing during the pandemic, especially, um,
Speaker: And I just think back throughout various points in my life and watching so many different men, masculine people, not able to issue self-control or not really interested in that sort of self-control and sort of recognition of emotions within themselves.
Speaker: Because I hear so many...
Speaker: men that I'm around at work especially, just kind of talk about their beliefs about emotions and just automatically believing that women are more emotional or what have you.
Speaker: And I'm just like, it's so funny to me because we can believe something that is not true and our minds will show us that over and over again.
Speaker: And I think that a lot of men don't recognize that
Speaker: that they're always experiencing emotion, even if they're not fully connected to those emotions.
Speaker: And that's something that I'm personally learning through therapy, just to kind of come back into contact or into relationship with varying types of emotion.
Speaker: And certain types of emotion for me are a lot easier to recognize and feel and experience and other types of emotion
Speaker: I want to push away and I'm really uncomfortable with acknowledging that some of that might be there or I'm just completely out of touch with a certain emotion altogether.
Speaker: Yeah, I definitely something that I do want to say in regards to that is I don't think a lot of men recognize or acknowledge that
Speaker: Anger.
Speaker: Anger is an emotion.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: And there are a few things to even say about that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you kind of touched on just now.
Speaker: I think anger is one of the few emotions that we are allowed to experience and display.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I'm thinking back to some of my early instances of realizing that
Speaker: Oh, there's an enormous double standard.
Speaker: I mean, there were many, many moments throughout my life, throughout my childhood that I remember that.
Speaker: But there is one that really sticks out to me.
Speaker: I was in the 10th grade.
Speaker: I had a bomb English teacher.
Speaker: And we had to read this book called The Scarlet Letter.
Speaker: I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.
Speaker: But yeah, it's like a book they give you in high school.
Speaker: Yeah, I remember.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They give you this book to read in school.
Speaker: Basically, it takes place in the 1600s in Massachusetts.
Speaker: So like the Northeast of America.
Speaker: And it's in this very, like very religious community.
Speaker: And basically...
Speaker: This woman becomes pregnant by the minister in the town, and the minister was married.
Speaker: So he committed adultery, but the woman is branded with this letter A,
Speaker: for adulterer and it's all in red.
Speaker: That's the title of the book, The Scarlet Letter.
Speaker: So the letter on her chest that she has to wear everywhere is red.
Speaker: And she becomes like a social outcast in that book.
Speaker: And eventually, she becomes a social outcast in the book and we witnessed the whole journey basically.
Speaker: And he is not, he receives zero punishment
Speaker: And I remember we read that book in class and I had one of those moments, you know, where like in a TV show, somebody is like one of the characters like is breaking the fourth wall and looks at the viewer at home or whatever, kind of like.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: On the office or even Abbott Elementary.
Speaker: So I had one of those moments and like nobody else seemed to be.
Speaker: upset or like notice how contradictory it was or maybe by that time it was so routine to everybody else but i was like this is so unfair and it was so like it's so unjust it's so unjust i was like so upset by the unjustness of it and everybody else kind of that i observed was just kind of like well yeah that's just how it is like yeah like yeah
Speaker: And I just like, that was like a moment that I just, I always think back to.
Speaker: And back then I didn't know much of anything about feminism, but that was certainly a sort of like a pivotal moment for me or like a, what is going on?
Speaker: This is not right moment for me that really like sort of sticks to me.
Speaker: So I'm just wondering if you've had sort of like similar aha or like similar moments where you were kind of beginning to be like, wait, this is really not right.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker: Great, great question.
Speaker: I've thought that to myself multiple times.
Speaker: Like I said earlier, 2020 was around a time where it was like really intentional for me, like the intentional curiosity, like what is going on with men, but also what's going on in the world, but specifically what's going on with men, right?
Speaker: But yeah, there were a lot of moments in my life
Speaker: childhood and my upbringing that I questioned.
Speaker: It was like, you know, why is this like this?
Speaker: Or why do we, there were so many moments.
Speaker: You talked about being in high school, being in 10th grade.
Speaker: There was a moment for me in high school also.
Speaker: I was in this relationship, terrible relationship.
Speaker: And, you know, long story short, this person, this person put their hands on me.
Speaker: this woman put their hands, this young lady put their hands on me.
Speaker: And I was, I was gonna let it go because it was just like, nobody cares, right?
Speaker: I'm a guy, nobody cares about this.
Speaker: Nobody cares about the optics of the situation.
Speaker: But there was a male teacher who was very adamant about me, very adamant about me speaking up and
Speaker: basically using my voice and letting it be known that basically someone just, someone just assaulted me and you know, it's not okay.
Speaker: And I remember him being very adamant about that in the hallway.
Speaker: Like, no, we're going to the principal's office to document this and let this be known.
Speaker: And I was, I was just like, nah, like it's cool.
Speaker: Like it's, it's whatever.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: He was like, and he turned and he looked at me and he was like, no, like this isn't okay.
Speaker: And I'll tell you right now, cause if it was the other way around, you, you,
Speaker: would be reprimanded for this like easily yeah and it was just like damn that so that was one way it was like damn like he's totally right like i
Speaker: I'm sitting here feeling like, uh, this isn't important.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: This isn't, uh, like no one's going to care about this.
Speaker: Like no one takes it seriously.
Speaker: And you know, that small, tiny little situation kind of, uh, you know, mirrors conversations, broader conversations about, you know, men being abused, men being, men being physically abused and things like that.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: shoot there were so many situations uh there was another situation where man i'm drawing a blank but it was just like as a kid i was never and it just kind of goes to the kind of kid or person i was and still am like i said i always question things uh you know me and my sister i don't have you uh do you know about the show called wife swap
Speaker: I've heard, wait, I've seen like previews for it.
Speaker: I understand the premise.
Speaker: Wife Swap is a show, it's about, the premise of the show is you have these two different families and they change wives for a week or whatever.
Speaker: And I remember me and my sister used to watch that.
Speaker: And there was this one random episode where
Speaker: the men didn't want to clean the bathroom or something like that.
Speaker: And I remember the men, the husbands on the show complaining, saying, oh, that's a woman's job and things like that.
Speaker: And I remember me and my sister both going, like, what is a woman's job?
Speaker: What is a woman's, how is, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker: Like, so what about cleaning a bathroom is, is,
Speaker: only for a woman, you know?
Speaker: So it was things like that, that I would seek out in the world and just question, you know, so many, so many experiences and so many things I saw that I would question be like, why, why is that for a woman?
Speaker: Or alternatively, why is that for a man?
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: So I've always been the type of person to like question things, say like, why, why is that the way that is?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So like the curiosity and it sounds like it really survived because that's what you said.
Speaker: it got you curious in 2020 when you started intentionally like reading and stuff.
Speaker: So yeah, I really want to just honor you and honor like your experience and also your vulnerability around what you shared about your ex-girlfriend in high school and everything.
Speaker: And I'm really glad that that teacher was there and let you know that what happened was not okay because I think a lot of guys think that
Speaker: like, oh, it's, it's, it's not that serious or like, I'm okay.
Speaker: I can take it.
Speaker: Like, you know, everything's fine or, or whatever.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, older, more mature people hopefully, uh, would be like, no, this is introducing like a dangerous sort of element into what, you know, to be love or relationships, um, romantic relationships and, and, um,
Speaker: and you can be hurt too.
Speaker: There's this singer, his name is Houston Kendrick, and he has this amazing song called Home.
Speaker: And one of the lines in it that sticks out to me is, sometimes when you don't get scared, you get scars.
Speaker: And like, for me, that hit me so hard because like, yeah, because like- Wow.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Bro, listen.
Speaker: Because, like, you know, for me, I haven't really been allowed to, like, experience fear.
Speaker: And that's something that, like, you know, I'm working through in therapy and everything.
Speaker: And so, like, I've had to turn that sort of part of myself off for, like, a really, really long time.
Speaker: And fear is a very important emotion.
Speaker: Like, you know, it lets us know, hey, danger, something's, like, you know, go the other way.
Speaker: Whereas, like...
Speaker: because I didn't have fear, you know, some people was like, oh, that's great.
Speaker: You're fearless.
Speaker: And it's like, that's maybe that's the upside.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But the downside to that is you wind up in stuff that gets you scarred, like deeply, deeply, deeply scarred because you didn't even, you weren't even afraid.
Speaker: You weren't like tentative.
Speaker: I think maybe that's even a better like word, like a better synonym for fear because there is so much stigma, stigma attached to, um, you know, being afraid.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: being tentative, like being like very like, I got to see first.
Speaker: I got to see, you know what I mean?
Speaker: So yeah, I just wanted to say that.
Speaker: And then I guess I wanted to ask you some of the questions that I have lined up for this conversation.
Speaker: You already talked about how your curiosity is a big feature of who you were as a boy.
Speaker: And so I'm also wondering about style, maybe also physical stuff.
Speaker: What kind of hairstyles did you have throughout your life?
Speaker: Were you always like a dark Caesar or dark Fae type of dude?
Speaker: Or did you have braids at one point or what?
Speaker: Such a interesting question that I could speak on.
Speaker: And this, man, as far as here, I've always had just like a regular low cut.
Speaker: You know, nothing too crazy.
Speaker: But I remember around... Well, let me just say this for context.
Speaker: I think who I am... As far as my assigned gender, to me, I feel like I've never really... I've never really performed my gender...
Speaker: in an appropriate or a way that I was supposed to.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that was, that was something that a few hurdles that I came across as far as like style and like hair and expressing myself.
Speaker: For example, I remember in high school, I, I, I wanted to dye my hair, you know, I wanted to dye my hair and these type of things, but you know, my parents didn't think that was appropriate or they wouldn't let me because, you know,
Speaker: you know, hair color can be perceived as being feminine, right?
Speaker: I don't know if you noticed, but if you go into the beauty store, the beauty supply store, and you look at hair dye, I would say majority of the boxes do have women on the packaging.
Speaker: You know, I wanted to dye my hair
Speaker: as far as style.
Speaker: Man, even back in 2009 when like skinny jeans and jerking was super popular, like I, again, I wanted to wear skinny jeans.
Speaker: You know, I wanted to wear skinny jeans, but you know, my parents...
Speaker: didn't think that was appropriate it was just like why why do you want to why do you want your jeans to be so tight and it was just like listen like this is this is just the swag right now i just want to swag out it's like everybody i want to express myself this is what i want to be it's just like we don't think this is appropriate for you we don't think as a as a young man we don't think your pants should be this tight as a young man we don't think your hair should be any other color besides black wow right
Speaker: Yeah, I'm thinking back on me and how I've had so many hairstyles and they were all a fight for the longest time.
Speaker: So I grew up in Far Rockaway in New York and I grew up around black people.
Speaker: And so for the longest time, I wanted cornrows.
Speaker: I wanted, you know, braids.
Speaker: And my parents are both Nigerian.
Speaker: And so, you know, braids are for women and long hair is that's for women.
Speaker: That's not for boys.
Speaker: And yeah, so it was not allowed.
Speaker: And, you know, I would try to grow my hair out.
Speaker: take months and months and months and finally it would be long enough to braid.
Speaker: You go through this like sort of ugly duckling phase, you know, the in-between, can't quite style it properly.
Speaker: And you get through that and you're like, okay,
Speaker: Now I can do braids and every time my parents will make me cut it or or what have you.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But eventually and they they would have me with a baldy to not just like a Caesar, not just a light Caesar.
Speaker: It was like a baldy.
Speaker: So yeah, that was not fun.
Speaker: But yeah, eventually, like in high school, like toward the end of high school, eventually I wore my parents down and they finally allowed me to have like braids and I was so happy.
Speaker: And it was something that I wanted since I was a kid, but I was finally getting like toward the end of my sort of like senior year of high school.
Speaker: So yeah, then I had braids, then I had locks, like small locks.
Speaker: And eventually I had like one head, like one half of my head shaved and the other half with like long locks, kind of like Rihanna.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've had twists.
Speaker: I've had just like little curls and stuff.
Speaker: But in terms of hair dye, I think I would dye my hair like brown, like a nice like chestnut, kind of dark brown.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Kind of like it looks natural or whatever.
Speaker: Um, but certainly no bright colors.
Speaker: And I don't think I even wanted that.
Speaker: I don't know that I've ever wanted that, but I think that might speak to like conditioning too, because it's like, Oh, like no colors, you know, another thing too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: After a while, just after a while of just being adamant and just constantly asking, uh, you know, my parents definitely led up to, uh,
Speaker: Later on in life, I think, yeah, later on in my adult life, I did get dreads.
Speaker: But also, I think around that time, too, I know earlier you asked me about moments where I just questioned things.
Speaker: Just really throughout life, because it was just like, I started to notice things like, okay, you don't want, I'm not allowed to, I started noticing how
Speaker: my gender was restricting me, you know?
Speaker: And it was like, okay, I, I'm not allowed to wear skinny jeans simply because I'm a young man.
Speaker: I'm not allowed to dye my hair.
Speaker: You know, if I'm being restricted simply because of my gender and it was just like, it was just,
Speaker: I started to feel like this isn't really, this isn't fun, you know, essentially.
Speaker: And like, I relate so much to what you're saying right now.
Speaker: So I'm bi and growing up, I was very, very, very feminine and very fun and full of life and energy.
Speaker: And unfortunately, over the years, a lot of that has been taken from me.
Speaker: But I'm reclaiming it now.
Speaker: I'm trying to step back into that.
Speaker: But the reason I bring that up is because, yeah, I was met with that all the time.
Speaker: Oh, you can't do this because you're a boy or boys don't do that.
Speaker: Boys don't walk like that.
Speaker: Boys don't talk like that.
Speaker: Or you're not supposed to do that.
Speaker: And so I would constantly see the limitations of gender for me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then also, especially when I was in like,
Speaker: once I got to like high school, I started to notice not just me, but also like other people, like, wow, this idea or gender, like it restricts y'all so much.
Speaker: Like there's, I would note it because most of my friends were girls and women.
Speaker: And so I would notice they would say certain things or do certain things and shame one another.
Speaker: And like, you know, like, oh, you're not supposed to do that.
Speaker: That's for boys or whatever.
Speaker: Or like they would even like boys and
Speaker: because certain boys expressed certain qualities that they themselves couldn't, were told that they couldn't because they're girls.
Speaker: And I was able to kind of see, like, some of that pretty early.
Speaker: Like, I think part of the reason you like him is because you're not allowed to be like that, but you want to be like that.
Speaker: So you're drawn to him.
Speaker: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker: No, I totally get you, 100%.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: that restrictive element with gender.
Speaker: I guess I'm thinking also back to like fashion.
Speaker: in where I'm from and how big Jordans were.
Speaker: You mentioned skinny jeans and stuff like that.
Speaker: And it's just so funny because like growing up, skinny jeans or jeans that were kind of tight or close to your legs, definitely not the wave.
Speaker: Definitely would get you called some slurs where I'm from.
Speaker: And then that like hard pivot in the 2009, 2010 area.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's just so wild.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you remember any other clothing items growing up that were like significant or meant something?
Speaker: Man, speaking of, yeah, just another example of something of a way I just, there was a cap on how I could express myself.
Speaker: I remember, yeah, this was back in that 2000, 2009, 2000, early 2010s era,
Speaker: definitely around that skinny jeans, jerking air.
Speaker: There was this thing.
Speaker: I wanted it so bad.
Speaker: It was, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world.
Speaker: It was the, and it's like, I know you know what this is too.
Speaker: The, the foxtail.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: With the Kanye.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Cause Kanye was around that time with the knapsacks and the foxtails and the, right.
Speaker: It's like a key chain that you could just put on a side or the side of your, yeah.
Speaker: The belt loop.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I, I remember like,
Speaker: A family friend, a close family friend, having a conversation with me around Christmas.
Speaker: And she asked me what I wanted for Christmas.
Speaker: And it was just like, yo, I told her, I was like, yo, I want this foxtail.
Speaker: You know, it's this thing.
Speaker: It's super cheap, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: She was just like, she gave me this cautionary tale.
Speaker: Oh, Lord.
Speaker: Now you know that.
Speaker: yeah it was like now you know that you know a lot of the a lot of guys who were gay were that like do you really want that and i'm sitting here like what does that what does that have to do with something that i want something that i desire i understand what she was trying to do but it was just like that is of no significance to me so i remember that and you know that just being yet another example of
Speaker: something that i can't do something i can't have simply because of this this thing or this this world that we live in right but you you spoke about jordan's we talked about skinny jeans the foxtail um was there anything else as far as like fashion and clothing i mean just beyond that just just just to talk about fashion more broadly i definitely think that like
Speaker: not even think men's options are definitely not as expansive as women's are.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I guess I'm wondering about the family friend.
Speaker: And so like, from my perspective, it sounds like she was in her own way.
Speaker: She was trying to protect you.
Speaker: Is that what you think was going on?
Speaker: Or do you think there was something else too?
Speaker: Um, yeah,
Speaker: I think that was protection.
Speaker: No, I think that was honestly, we're just going to call a spade a spade.
Speaker: It was just like, that was, it was, to me, it was homophobia.
Speaker: It was just like, okay, this, this clothing, clothing item is typically worn by these types of people.
Speaker: And I'm pretty sure she felt like those types of people were bad or this, this, and that.
Speaker: And it was just like,
Speaker: because of that you're not allowed to wear this thing because it's related to again these types of people right and it was just so and honestly that that was that's that's a good question because that can even that that that calls into question like how we how we raise boys sometimes like the whole
Speaker: when we tell them man up and to not cry, like, is that, is it protection or is it, you know, are we trying to protect them and in the house before it happens out in public?
Speaker: You know, that's, that's, that's something to think about too.
Speaker: And then it makes me think about like how we're trying, like guiding, right?
Speaker: Guidance, like trying to guide you away from,
Speaker: possibly being gay, whatever, but also thought of as gay.
Speaker: And so like, yeah, like this idea of trying to guide children and sort of shape and mold children.
Speaker: It reminds me of that sort of conversation and how more often than not, the things that people will guide children to do and be are the opposite of anything having to do with
Speaker: gay people, queer people, bi people, trans people, whatever.
Speaker: And yeah, that's just, I mean, that's the reality of where we live.
Speaker: I could give you a million stories about my experience with that, but I will not bore you.
Speaker: Or the people listening to this.
Speaker: My next question is, who were some of your personal heroes?
Speaker: Whether that means like people in your neighborhood or family,
Speaker: Or just like influences, like maybe like famous people or something or in your neighborhood.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, I was thinking about that.
Speaker: I have two...
Speaker: I have two different answers.
Speaker: I have two different answers.
Speaker: So the first one, and we talked about this, you know, both of us were from the same place.
Speaker: I was born in Queens, went in Far Rockaway.
Speaker: When I lived there at the time, someone I looked up to heavily was, as a kid, was 50 Cent.
Speaker: I wanted to be
Speaker: like 50 cent, you know, cause that was, that was cool to me.
Speaker: Um, that was appealing to me, you know, the cars, the money, the girls, like the, the macho, like the toughness of it.
Speaker: It was cool.
Speaker: Obviously at that time I didn't have the language, but that was cool to me now.
Speaker: Not so much, but so I would say now in my adult life, but also in my young adult life, um,
Speaker: Will Smith.
Speaker: Will Smith.
Speaker: Will Smith did a lot for me.
Speaker: I think he might have been the first person or the, yeah, he might've been the first person that I saw myself in a TV or film.
Speaker: Just a little, just some context.
Speaker: You know, growing up, I felt the men,
Speaker: in my life, the men in my family, I felt they were just really serious all the time.
Speaker: Really serious, really stoic.
Speaker: And as a kid, man, I was a goofy kid, man.
Speaker: I was a goofy, fun, really silly kid, man.
Speaker: And sometimes it just seemed like the men around me just weren't happy, really.
Speaker: Didn't really smile, didn't really laugh, didn't really feel, you know, just really stoic, really stern.
Speaker: And I do remember, like, around high school, thinking, like,
Speaker: Maybe I should be like that.
Speaker: Maybe I should cut back on the fun, goofy jokes and stuff like that.
Speaker: Maybe I should cut back and be a little bit more stoic.
Speaker: Maybe more serious.
Speaker: But I remember watching Fresh Prince and seeing Will.
Speaker: And it was just like, man, here's a guy who's like me.
Speaker: He's goofy.
Speaker: He's black.
Speaker: he gets the girls still, you know, he still has his serious moments.
Speaker: And it was just like, you know, seeing that to me, it was just, okay, like this, this is okay.
Speaker: Like who I am is okay.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: You know, so when we talk about representation, man, like that shit is real.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: So I love Will Smith, man.
Speaker: I really do.
Speaker: And it's, and it's funny because he's somebody who it can be argued that he doesn't,
Speaker: really uh where he sits on i guess the quote-unquote masculinity scale he he kind of deviates from traditional masculinity in in some regards right and it's funny because a lot of time he comes up in in public conversations it's usually negative so i think it's funny that you know that is someone just despite him deviating from masculinity that's probably why
Speaker: he really resonates because I also deviate from that.
Speaker: So I just want to say, Will, if you're listening, I love you, man.
Speaker: I appreciate you.
Speaker: That's beautiful.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: Yeah, we watched French Prince a lot growing up too.
Speaker: I'm trying to think, I'm trying to answer the question, who are some of your personal heroes and influences?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm curious about that.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Like, okay.
Speaker: I'm trying to think.
Speaker: And like, to be honest, I've been trying to think about this...
Speaker: for the days leading up to this conversation, even though I'm the one who wrote the question, but it's just, it's like a blank, honestly.
Speaker: And I want to say more about that or why I think it was a blank.
Speaker: I know that for me growing up, it was very rare to see feminine, bisexual men, black men in the media portrayed in even a neutral light, let alone not a negative one.
Speaker: And so, I mean, even less specific, even if you want to go to just queer or gay Black men, there were so few and they were not particularly portrayed in positive or neutral lights.
Speaker: They were oftentimes like a stereotype rather than just like a full human being or
Speaker: The butt of the joke or something like that.
Speaker: The butt of the joke.
Speaker: So there was certainly that.
Speaker: And then I'm just kind of thinking about like a lot of the portrayals of black masculinity that I witnessed on TV or even in my neighborhood.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I think it's complicated because I don't know that there were lots of people who I wanted to be like.
Speaker: but there were certainly people I was drawn to.
Speaker: And so that had to do with like attraction.
Speaker: And so this is such a hard question, even though I'm the one who made it up.
Speaker: So yeah, I think that kind of answers it.
Speaker: I think it was complicated by sort of, I don't know who I want to be like, and none of you guys like
Speaker: like me or at least acknowledge that you're like me.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I don't know that I want to be like anybody.
Speaker: But at the same time, there is like a pull or like an attraction there.
Speaker: So it's complicated.
Speaker: It's complicated.
Speaker: My next question is, what expectations while being a black boy were placed on you that you were aware of?
Speaker: that I was aware of.
Speaker: Something that initially popped in my mind is, oh yeah, something that I was aware of that was an expectation or I felt that was an expectation of me was being sexually active.
Speaker: being sexually active.
Speaker: Being a virgin... Being a virgin was not it.
Speaker: And I'm sure it's still... I'm sure it's still like that.
Speaker: Yeah, so I definitely felt that.
Speaker: But despite that pressure from family, from friends, just from everybody, really, I...
Speaker: I was a virgin man, but it was just like, I was a cool virgin.
Speaker: I was super chill.
Speaker: I wasn't pressed to do that until I wanted to.
Speaker: And a lot of people didn't know I was a virgin when I was.
Speaker: A lot of people thought that I wasn't.
Speaker: And I wouldn't hide it either.
Speaker: I wasn't ashamed of a virgin.
Speaker: People would ask me, people would talk about sex, and I'd be like, oh, I'm a virgin.
Speaker: I don't.
Speaker: I don't know what that is.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: They would be shocked by it.
Speaker: It wasn't something I was ashamed of.
Speaker: And, man, to be honest, a lot of this conversation is, like, reminding me of, I think, like, I've always thought that, like, vulnerability and, like, bravery was, like, strength.
Speaker: You know, because, again, people would talk about sex and I would so confidently say, like, oh, I'm a virgin.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: and not try to play myself up or lie or pretend, you know, I would just be honest and, you know, speak my truth.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, that, what about you though?
Speaker: What was something that was an expectation that you, that you felt?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, I definitely felt the expectation, um, not to, not to be afraid, not to snitch.
Speaker: Um, um,
Speaker: Oh, yeah, definitely.
Speaker: To handle problems on my own, no matter how big the problems were.
Speaker: I had to handle it on my own.
Speaker: And what other expectations?
Speaker: Well, I was expected to be, yeah, tough, I guess, masculine.
Speaker: I was expected to.
Speaker: Yeah, basically.
Speaker: It sounds like just...
Speaker: just be a man, right?
Speaker: Quote, unquote, be a man.
Speaker: I think for most of us, that's the expectation.
Speaker: And I was expected to be straight too.
Speaker: Or I was also expected to feel ashamed of being bi.
Speaker: Yeah, that's wild.
Speaker: That's a lot.
Speaker: I was not expected to feel confident or like myself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think I wanted to ask you something.
Speaker: Wait, because you said... Because it sounds like people were expecting you to have sex before, you know?
Speaker: And they were also expecting you maybe to feel maybe ashamed or embarrassed by your virginity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's so interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, when we think about masculinity, that's definitely something that's a part of that thought, like having a lot of...
Speaker: sexual partners or a lot of people think of it as like sexual conquest.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But not, it was just like, I, I, I didn't feel that at all.
Speaker: I didn't feel ashamed.
Speaker: I was, I was moving on my own time.
Speaker: You know, it was just like, I'm not about to do something I don't want to do despite, again, despite the pressure because the, because the pressure is there, you know, the pressure is there and,
Speaker: I do feel like a lot of young men do fold under that, which is a separate conversation in itself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And do you feel like people regularly saw you as innocent?
Speaker: And if there is someone or many people who come to mind, who?
Speaker: Right off the bat, my answer to that is no.
Speaker: And I say that because I think patriarchy robs boys and young men of their innocence.
Speaker: I think a lot of times when people see, especially we're talking about black men, black boys, black and brown boys, you know, there's definitely the racial aspect to it already, but it's like the gender aspect as well.
Speaker: So I'll say no, to be honest.
Speaker: I think a lot of times when people see us, sometimes they're not even seeing us.
Speaker: They're seeing patriarchy and they're seeing ideas attributed to masculinity, not even us for real, which is unfortunate.
Speaker: And I think about that pretty often, actually.
Speaker: What about you, though?
Speaker: Like not being seen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like they're seeing the idea of you, like not just patriarchy, but also blackness, like the specter of blackness.
Speaker: Like they're not even seeing you, Mel or me, JR. They're seeing whatever they associate with blackness.
Speaker: with black male black male yeah right right yeah um so to answer this question hell hell fucking no like hell fucking no and what i will say too is um in addition to you know those two things that you mentioned um black males um i i'm bi and so like that is a sexuality piece that's seen as on it
Speaker: demonic or there's a spirit on you or you're going to infect my child with your gayness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or like sexually deviant.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Sexual deviance or whatever other things people associate.
Speaker: And so like even if I was around, you know, skin folk.
Speaker: There was that too.
Speaker: And that was a very real fear that a lot of my friends who were boys too, like their parents, they had that very real fear and they did not want me in their houses and they let it be known.
Speaker: And
Speaker: Yeah, even with my friends who were girls too, like, you know, being around their family and their parents and stuff.
Speaker: And, you know, they would say things too.
Speaker: And they, you know, wouldn't be the nicest and wouldn't want me back around their house either.
Speaker: So, you know, this concept of innocence and who gets to be innocent or who gets to be seen as innocent is such an enormous conversation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: with many layers to it.
Speaker: Literally, I was thinking it as you were, when you brought up the sexuality, because I'm like, man, it's layers to it, really.
Speaker: It's unfortunate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: This is like a harder question.
Speaker: What was your relationship to and understanding of power?
Speaker: What was my relationship to and understanding of
Speaker: I'm going to take the passenger seat on this one.
Speaker: I'll let you answer that one first.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So I think my first taste of power that I can remember was having access to fashion, like getting fly and like, and saving up my money so that I could go to a barbershop and have professionals cut my hair.
Speaker: Cause my dad used to cut my hair like a baldy in the bathroom.
Speaker: So when I got my bread up and could afford to get a haircut and when I could afford to buy my own clothes and sneakers, oh,
Speaker: baby.
Speaker: Like I was still, I was still, you know, not the top of the social totem pole.
Speaker: Cause I'm still like a feminine by, you know, black child, but I was not in the same place that I had started.
Speaker: And I noticed, I noticed that right away.
Speaker: People treated me better.
Speaker: People treated me different.
Speaker: People wanted to be my friend that literally days before did not like walk past me or would laugh at me.
Speaker: People laughed at my jokes.
Speaker: People, yeah, that was power.
Speaker: That was my first taste of power.
Speaker: Like, okay, if I get this grooming stuff down, if I get this fashion stuff down, people will be nice to me.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: If I get this, I guess beauty, right?
Speaker: Because I said grooming, but maybe it's like beauty, like attractiveness, desirability.
Speaker: Yeah, I would say fashion is a part of beauty, really.
Speaker: Yeah, it's desirable.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that might have been my first time, too.
Speaker: I was dating this girl in high school, and she was pretty popular.
Speaker: And in me dating her, you know, I got some of that social clout.
Speaker: You know, I got some of that.
Speaker: I came up in the social hierarchy a little bit.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: And yeah, I think that might have been the first time I was really aware of it.
Speaker: Like, oh, like, okay.
Speaker: I noticed people are noticing me more.
Speaker: I would say, yeah, also dressing better.
Speaker: Like, toward my senior year of high school, I was dressing a lot better.
Speaker: And I saw...
Speaker: the effect that that had, again, on my social interactions, on my friends, and on my life, really.
Speaker: So I'll say that, yeah.
Speaker: Well, and I think in addition to that, I also noticed that if I were to play into certain social norms around gender and, like, who's the butt of the joke, so, like, misogyny is what I'm thinking of,
Speaker: I recognize that as power, too.
Speaker: I think I recognize that pretty early, like around the same time I noticed that about like beauty and desirability.
Speaker: I was noticing, oh, if I act like this or if I talk like this or if I put girls down or whatever, people like me better or more like there's power there.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker: I also, you know, we've been talking a lot about high school.
Speaker: I did read, don't quote me on this.
Speaker: You or the listeners definitely, definitely do your Googles.
Speaker: But I definitely saw somewhere that around high school is when.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: ideas around gender become really rigid rigid and if i think about a lot of my gender panic it it occurred in in those four years you know so anecdotally for me that is definitely true like high school being the the time of life where gender is really rigid because i i also do remember um
Speaker: noticing that if I again I never to me I never did like I said quote unquote did my gender correctly I wanted to dye my hair I wanted to do these different types of things I was a very expressive young person but I noticed when I decided to perform like all the other guys and you know pull back a little bit and do things attributed to
Speaker: normative masculinity, I noticed that I got almost
Speaker: Here's a quick announcement.
Speaker: My new book is available for pre-order now.
Speaker: Dear Bi-Men, A Black Man's Perspective on Power, Consent, Breaking Down Binaries, and Combating Erasure is being published by North Atlantic Books and distributed by Penguin Random House.
Speaker: This book is a powerful resource for Black bi men to reclaim their identity, counter biphobia, and get empowered, and an offering to all readers looking to thwart the erasure and dehumanization wrought by patriarchy.
Speaker: The anticipated publishing date is April 16th, 2024.
Speaker: but you can pre-order it now.
Speaker: Also, Sometimes Impatient Merch for people who are working on it is now available too.
Speaker: We got tote bags, t-shirts, hoodies, and pillows.
Speaker: Lastly, we have Patreon.
Speaker: If you like the podcast as is, there's way more in-depth podcast episodes and other goodies over on my Patreon.
Speaker: Tap in.
Speaker: I know you were talking about noticing similar things about performing gender and being on the outs of gender, not performing gender properly, but when you would perform
Speaker: in like, you know, a sort of stereotypical way, there was sort of access to some power.
Speaker: Yeah, that was pretty much it.
Speaker: Yeah, pretty much everything you just said.
Speaker: I noticed, again, when I would cut back on who I was, really, when I would cut back and limit my authenticity and, you know, perform how I was quote unquote supposed to be.
Speaker: Yeah, it was almost like I got some positive reinforcement from that.
Speaker: Man, like, listening to that is like, honestly, it's so heartbreaking.
Speaker: And, you know, I relate so much, but it's just still so heartbreaking to hear that.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: Because it's just like just the weight of that sentence, like limiting who I am and like my authenticity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's it's it is really sad.
Speaker: I only have a couple of questions left.
Speaker: I guess I want to ask you, what kind of man did you want to grow up to be?
Speaker: Whether that is like way back to when you were like in elementary school or middle school or high school or even college.
Speaker: Do you remember thinking about that a lot?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Great question.
Speaker: I have like two answers for that.
Speaker: Like back then in high school, I wanted to be a lot of the things that, you know, patriarchy demands of us as mass people.
Speaker: You know, I want to be
Speaker: stoic and stern and quote unquote masculine.
Speaker: I wanted to be the breadwinner.
Speaker: I wanted to, I just wanted to do it, right?
Speaker: I wanted to reach, essentially reach the standard, right?
Speaker: That was put before me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that's the case for a lot of young men and men, you know, they are actively trying to reach this standard.
Speaker: But it's a lot of that is unattainable.
Speaker: But right now, at this point in my life,
Speaker: I want to, yeah, it's just, what I want most is, what I want most is authenticity.
Speaker: Authenticity, love, freedom, freedom from patriarchy.
Speaker: Yeah, authenticity, love, freedom, joy, liberation.
Speaker: Yeah, honestly.
Speaker: Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm thinking back and I think that
Speaker: I kind of struggle with this question for the similar reason.
Speaker: I struggle to answer that question about who were some of your heroes and things like that.
Speaker: Yeah, it just kind of felt like...
Speaker: I don't know if I'm going to make it to adulthood, you know?
Speaker: And then also, like, I don't know.
Speaker: It was a lot of, I don't know who I want to be.
Speaker: I think in high school and maybe college, I started to feel like, okay, I think I want to be a person who can do things.
Speaker: who can excel at the things that we consider to be masculine things and also can excel at the things that we consider to be feminine things.
Speaker: So I think pretty early on, I saw both of them as like sort of necessary or important.
Speaker: And I wanted to have like, like a handle or a master on sort of both, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, so, um, our last question that I'm going to ask, cause we've, we've covered a lot.
Speaker: My last question is, yeah.
Speaker: What are some films or TV shows that you've seen about black boyhood that stood out to you?
Speaker: Man, right up top of my head.
Speaker: Uh,
Speaker: Damn, what was that movie called?
Speaker: Damn, what was that movie called?
Speaker: I think it came out in 2017.
Speaker: Oh, Moonlight.
Speaker: Moonlight?
Speaker: Moonlight.
Speaker: Yeah!
Speaker: Off the top of my head, Moonlight.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think really that might be the only one.
Speaker: Moonlight, such an amazing film.
Speaker: Amazing film.
Speaker: And despite it being
Speaker: I wouldn't even say it's about being gay or anything like that.
Speaker: Although the main character in the movie, well, it's up for today.
Speaker: They could be queer or whatever, right?
Speaker: But what I'm trying to say essentially is despite the main character not being
Speaker: a straight black male, right?
Speaker: I think that movie is for all of us, for all us black men, black mass people, because I think our struggles, the things we deal with, the hurdles that are put in front of us are linked to
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Whether you're Black and gay, Black and bi, you know, patriarchy is the thing that connects us.
Speaker: And it's just like, that film is literally amazing.
Speaker: It's amazing what, how the director, whoever came up with the plot, you know, what they're talking about in that film is really
Speaker: It's such a weighty topic, but it's done.
Speaker: So it's palatable, but although it's palatable and digestible, it doesn't take away the heft and weight of the subject matter.
Speaker: So I would say that.
Speaker: What about you?
Speaker: So yeah, Moonlight is definitely one that's on my list.
Speaker: But based on what you said, it just kind of reminded me of something that I read online.
Speaker: Basically, there was a film.
Speaker: It was a Pixar film, if I'm not mistaken, called Red.
Speaker: And so it's like animated and everything.
Speaker: And it was about this young Asian woman, young Asian girl, excuse me, learning about more about her culture and stuff.
Speaker: And there was this like one sort of like review in particular that stood out.
Speaker: It was by this middle-aged white man.
Speaker: And he was basically like, oh, yeah, I thought the film was bad because I couldn't relate to it.
Speaker: And so it just kind of reminded me of how like
Speaker: A lot of times when you're from a dominant group, even if like you're within a marginalized group,
Speaker: it can be sort of like, what am I trying to say?
Speaker: I think what I'm trying to say is that sometimes when we see people who are not exactly like us and are from a different place on the marginalization sort of like totem pole, if you will, it can be easy for us to sort of disconnect.
Speaker: And I think that
Speaker: We should all sort of try to examine why that is.
Speaker: And, you know, when you talk about the themes in the film Moonlight, I mean, it is about a black boy.
Speaker: It's about a black boy coming into manhood and a black queer boy coming into manhood and figuring out so many things about himself and who he wants to be and what some of the forces were that shaped why he wanted to be who he became.
Speaker: And also, as an adult, he in some ways became someone who he promised himself he would never be like.
Speaker: But at the same time, so much of who he became was his biggest hero and one of his biggest saviors from his childhood.
Speaker: I think that...
Speaker: It is sad that a lot of straight Black men or straight men in general are not able to hold the reality that other people have a lot in common with them, but also have their own experiences and are not able to witness that without a lot of discomfort or the desire to...
Speaker: to disconnect.
Speaker: Um, I think that's pretty sad.
Speaker: Um, but yeah.
Speaker: Um, so Moonlight was on my list and then there's also, um, David makes man and it's by the same writer of, of Moonlight essentially.
Speaker: Um, it's, uh, Terrell, a McCraney.
Speaker: So, um, yeah, he wrote, uh, David makes man and that was on the own network.
Speaker: And I really liked that because it, it featured, um, this, um,
Speaker: young black boy.
Speaker: He was the center of the TV show.
Speaker: And basically he was from this impoverished neighborhood in Florida.
Speaker: And because of his smarts, he got into like a different school in a different part of town and a more affluent part of town.
Speaker: And so it was a lot of
Speaker: learning how to maneuver these different worlds, you know, the world that he's from.
Speaker: And then also like this other type of school with different kinds of black people than, than he's used to.
Speaker: So lots of things about class and things like that and gender, black boyhood.
Speaker: Very, very cool.
Speaker: You talked a lot about the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and like Will Smith and everything.
Speaker: And so there was like a remake called Bel-Air that,
Speaker: which I watch right now.
Speaker: It's on Peacock.
Speaker: And it's such a good show.
Speaker: I really like it a lot.
Speaker: It's really current.
Speaker: And I'm not the biggest fan of remakes or things like that, but I think they get the right.
Speaker: It's a different show.
Speaker: I've heard of it.
Speaker: I haven't seen it.
Speaker: It's good.
Speaker: I recommend it.
Speaker: Um, there's also, there was also Queen Sugar, which was also on the, the, the OWN network.
Speaker: And, um, the, the entire story is about, you know, three siblings, but one of the siblings is a black man and he has a son.
Speaker: And it was just really beautiful watching the way that he raised his son and tried to just support his son no matter what, because his son was,
Speaker: very young when the show started and his son played with dolls.
Speaker: And so we saw how like his community responded to that and also saw how he responded to that in like a very supportive way.
Speaker: And no, I'm going to defend my child and defend my child's interests and, you know, defend whoever my child turns out to be or what have you.
Speaker: And I thought that was like really, really beautiful.
Speaker: And, you know, a great example.
Speaker: And then lastly, I have I am a Virgo, and this is on Amazon Prime.
Speaker: Jarrell Jerome stars in it.
Speaker: And the premise of the show is that we're in this like sort of like superhero sort of galaxy or like, I mean, this world sort of where some people have powers and some people don't have powers.
Speaker: The main character is.
Speaker: His sort of like ability is that he is a giant.
Speaker: So he was born being a giant.
Speaker: I think he's like something like 40 feet tall or 30 feet tall or something like that.
Speaker: And his parents homeschooled him and kept him away from the world.
Speaker: So nobody knew anything about him until he is like 21 or something like that.
Speaker: Like so...
Speaker: Yeah, so he has never gotten to socialize with his peers.
Speaker: He's never been out in public up until this show starts.
Speaker: And so it's kind of like, even though he is technically a young adult, it is a lot about Black boyhood and learning that, oh, people see me as a villain, even though I am so innocent, I am so naive, I am so, you know what I mean?
Speaker: Right, so that one is really, really good too.
Speaker: So I recommend all of those.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess I don't, I don't watch too much.
Speaker: You just listen to so many.
Speaker: It's like, damn, I don't watch TV or something like that at all.
Speaker: That's good though.
Speaker: I'll have to check those out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I want to thank you so much for your time, Mel, and for your vulnerability and this amazing conversation.
Speaker: And, um, can you just let the folks at, at home know how to find you on social media?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, once again, thank you for having me.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: If you enjoyed the podcast and you enjoyed anything I have to say, check me out on TikTok.
Speaker: That's where I mostly post my thoughts and ideas.
Speaker: What's your name?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm at Toronto Paradise on TikTok.
Speaker: What's the story behind that?
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: My name?
Speaker: So...
Speaker: So I am, I am, I created it like 10 plus years ago because at that time, I'm just a Drake fan or I'm a, I'm a recovering fan.
Speaker: Drake fan.
Speaker: Same.
Speaker: As of late, I've been critiquing him a lot more.
Speaker: He's from Toronto.
Speaker: He has a song called Club Paradise, so I just took Toronto into Paradise.
Speaker: That was a pretty nice name.
Speaker: Can we talk about that a little bit more?
Speaker: Do you have a little bit more time to talk about having to know me?
Speaker: Oh, my God, man.
Speaker: Mel.
Speaker: Mel.
Speaker: I always have time to talk about Aubrey, man.
Speaker: Mel.
Speaker: So much to say.
Speaker: So much to say.
Speaker: Drake, we were rooting for you.
Speaker: Man.
Speaker: But, you know, it's not surprising to me because since my...
Speaker: since me stepping into you know this space feminism patriarchy uh i've i'll say this if you don't critique the things that you like and enjoy i don't trust you all right i love drake but it's just like it's like i critique him because i love him yeah because i love his right and it's just like since stepping into this space and learning about these things i found a lot of
Speaker: remnants of patriarchy in his music yeah and it's always been there it's always been there but drake in the 2020s um his his you know misogyny has been way more overt than in the past decade you know it's always been there yeah but um yeah i mean hopefully i i i believe that he has the capacity to um
Speaker: to reflect on his behavior.
Speaker: Not so much to where it's like super academic and he's, I don't know, says patriarchy in a song or anything like that, but he's definitely, I truly believe that there's gonna come a point where he faces his behavior and his relationship with women.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: If it doesn't happen, I know he has the capacity to do that.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: in our patriarchal society, there, there was no incentive for that.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So who knows, especially if you have money and like his level, right.
Speaker: His level of money and access and things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, I, so growing up, I wasn't always the biggest fan of hip hop.
Speaker: Um, if I'm being quite frank, you know, I grew up in the nineties.
Speaker: Um, and you know,
Speaker: the New York rap scene in the nineties was extremely like hyper-masculine, extremely overtly homophobic.
Speaker: Um, and so, um, there wasn't a lot of hip hop that I actually enjoyed.
Speaker: Um, especially from, right.
Speaker: Especially from men.
Speaker: I mean, I would occasionally like things from Foxy Brown and occasionally things from little Kim and things like that, but that certainly wasn't my genre.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And then I got to college in the 2000s, like 2007 is when I went to college and Kanye was out and Drake had eventually come out.
Speaker: And so this for me, like that was like, oh my goodness, this is music.
Speaker: This is everything.
Speaker: You know, it was so good.
Speaker: They are so talented.
Speaker: They have so much talent.
Speaker: I will never like, they are talented people, you know.
Speaker: And then Frank Ocean was out around that time.
Speaker: So, you know, I was a sad boy.
Speaker: I wasn't really... Speak on it.
Speaker: I can't really remember a time where I was really like, oh, I'm tough.
Speaker: I don't have feelings.
Speaker: I think I always kind of was like, I'm a sad boy, but I have to hide being a sad boy.
Speaker: And then, you know, and then these musicians came out and they are sad boys.
Speaker: They are sad.
Speaker: And they were telling people, I am sad.
Speaker: And so I, you know, identify with that so much.
Speaker: And because of that, it really blinded me to Drake's misogyny, you know.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It was very much like, oh, yeah, like, I have feelings.
Speaker: I'm not like these other dudes that don't have feelings.
Speaker: I have feelings.
Speaker: And get back in the kitchen and, you know, take care of me.
Speaker: And it was a lot harder for me to see Drake's misogyny, especially in the music.
Speaker: There were lots of black women who I was friends with, who I'm sure I was insufferable because I would like be like, how was Drake a misogynist?
Speaker: What do you mean he's a misogynist?
Speaker: What misogyny?
Speaker: And they would literally point me to lines from some of my favorite songs.
Speaker: And they would be like, yes, this is misogyny.
Speaker: This is, you know what I mean?
Speaker: And that was very hard.
Speaker: That was not easy because I had identified with him so much.
Speaker: And I liked him.
Speaker: I liked him a lot, you know.
Speaker: But I think that what you said about, you know, critiquing, you know, some of your favorite artists or favorite people is so important when you're trying to develop like ethics, develop your own ethics and your own sense of like, you know, the world and reality, really.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That was an amazing conversation, Mel.
Speaker: I appreciate you so much.
Speaker: And yeah, like you've been so generous and I just want to, I, I, I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation, honestly.
Speaker: Agreed.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: It was a great time.
Speaker: Honestly, thank you for having me on.
Speaker: I love to just get to ruminate and chop it up, you know.
Speaker: This is great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Hopefully.
Speaker: Hopefully.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: Have a great night.
Speaker: Take care, everybody.
Speaker: And I will see y'all next time.
Speaker: Peace.
Speaker: I want to thank you for taking the time to listen to the Let's Heal Already podcast.
Speaker: To be clear, I'm not advocating for an emotionally intelligent patriarch or for more men to begin and end their work at feeling comfortable painting their nails, wearing dresses, or expanding what falls under the fold of masculinity.
Speaker: Similarly, I do not want to be a highly efficient, well-adjusted worker under capitalism, which is often the aim of Western therapy models.
Speaker: I am calling for the system to be abolished.
Speaker: That system is imperialist, cis-heterosexist, white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy.
Speaker: Please leave a rating or review on the platform you use to listen to this podcast and feel free to share this with your friends.
Speaker: Donation to show support can be made at J-R-Y-U-S-S-U-F on Venmo.
