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What makes a great Sonic Soundtrack? Ft WysteriaMoth
106 Plays5 months ago
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by fellow Sonic head Wysteria Moth to discuss the significance of the music tracks in the Sonic the Hedgehog games. But what makes them so iconic? Do they still hold up today? What is Satsunami's controversial take?? And what song destroyed Moth's car?! All this and more in this latest episode!
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Transcript
Introduction and Sonic Influencer Plea
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Chatsunami and living and learning today and this endless possibility is none other than the sonic head or self it is Wisteria Moth. Moth, welcome back. It's great to be back. Is it though? and
00:00:38
Speaker
No, it absolutely is. It absolutely is is. And we're just over here trying to live life, you know? Very true. You are indeed a knight of the wind. Why did I go for that one? I don't know. Let me city escape out of here. See what I did there. It never turned back. yeah Never turned back. Oh no. See when I see Sega, right? They're hiring all these hyper competent influencers to push the products. Sega, I'm right here. I am a nerd. I have all the time in the world, PB and old Sonic games, okay?
00:01:18
Speaker
SEGA! I will make a fool of myself on the internet for your benefit! Just pay me in retro sonic and my life is yours! I will spindash in real life, okay? but SEGA, SEGA, come here, come closer, please.
Sonic Music's Legacy and Universality
00:01:32
Speaker
simply please Anyway, my crippling midlife crisis aside, today we are of course going to be talking about Shock Order, our very enthusiastically shared interest. That of course being not only Sonic the Hedgehog but we're going to be going in a more order trip after tonight. Tonight we are going to be talking about the soundtrack, the absolute brilliance of the Sonic the Hedgehog music. And let me tell you, when you proposed this to me, I was like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, let me just spam, live and learn, open your heart, you know.
00:02:06
Speaker
Like the thing is right, the thing is right, Sonic the Hedgehog. There's many things to love about Sonic the Hedgehog. There's many things to loathe about Sonic the Hedgehog. It's such a broad variety. But one thing that it Seldom misses on is the music. And I think that that is just a collective agreement. This is the one thing that we can all agree on. Seldom does Sonic music miss. And I think that is just such a beautiful thing. Yeah. is actually really is surprising because even the detractors of the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise will agree and say oh well at least the music's good except for one or two but we won't focus on them calling it butt rock.
00:02:43
Speaker
They're not wrong, but at the same time, why do you have to do them dirty like that? The thing is, right, one thing I think I really appreciate about Sonic Music, and this is something we can go into further on, is the fact that they aren't really afraid to take chances for certain things, and the sound has just evolved so much from like different generations and whatnot. It's just wild to consider, and I think it's just gonna be so fun to sort of have a little looky-loo into the timeline of it all. I think it'll be really interesting to talk about. I could talk about this for hours, so ah buckle up. Yeah, you can't see it but in the corner I'm like tapping my watch going, mhm, mhm. My Sonic branded watch going, mhm, mhm. have a liberty here. The Sonic the Hedgehog watch. That's just Sonic in the middle with his arms as the hands like the old Mickey Mouse watches. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. No joke, no joke. Oh no. We found the shared brain cell. There it is. Put it in a box. Don't let it get away. Don't let it get away.
Sonic Adventure 2 and Personal Nostalgia
00:03:35
Speaker
So going back to the music for the second, I'm quite curious to hear initial thoughts when you first started getting into the series. Was this something that you noticed when you started playing the games that you thought, oh the soundtrack is absolutely amazing? Or was it something that you didn't really think about until afterwards? So the days of yore when I was but a wee one, my first real exposure, aside from when I was even younger, we had a Sega Genesis in the daycare I went to. We had like an N64 and a Genesis. I remember watching kids playing Sonic, but my first experience playing Sonic, I started in the 3D era and my very first Sonic game was Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. And I remember starting that game for the first time and my first playthrough instantly had me hooked. onto the series. I think this is a formative moment for any Sonic fan who started with Sonic Adventure 2. What instantly sort of got its hooks into me immediately was that opening bass lick for Escape From the City. I was in, invested, immediately. From the ground up, that was it. I was done. And it was just the entirety. All of the music in Sonic Adventure 2 already is amazing to me. It is still probably one of my favorite soundtracks. It only has in recent years sort of been pushed off of its throne a little bit, just because there's so much great music out there now. The Sonic series is just saturated with amazing vocal tracks, amazing stage music, all of it. But going all the way to the very, very beginning, again, it was Escape from the City that really locked me in. And it still holds a special place in my heart. For a little bit of cringe here, I actually did perform Escape from the City for a talent show when I was in school. I didn't win, but still it was fun. So what you're saying is it was wrecked. It was rigged. It was rigged from the start. but Just out of curiosity, did you have any Italian plumbers working at your school? Absolutely not. yeah We're going to have to come back to that, but yeah. Yeah, it's quiet. They sort of go on. But no, no, no. It was just like, ah even from the child, the indoctrination started young. It was either funny little Italian men or fast little furry thing. And I went fast little furry thing. That was my go to. But
00:05:38
Speaker
Looking back on it now, it's ah it's just so funny and I know it's a little bit of an exaggeration. I'm like, oh, there's no way. There's no way it happened that quick. But it really was. And then pretty much just everything that followed after that was just banger after banger after banger. And it was just kind of like, where has this been my whole life? That game was the first time I actually sort of paid attention to video game music or music in a video game anyway.
Evolution of Sonic's Music in Storytelling
00:06:00
Speaker
there on Sonic this a lot as well where the music ends up being more of a backdrop for the stage rather than enhancing the stage you're playing in but something about Sonic Adventure 2 and the way that the music was just so proactive in the actual theming and the building of the stage that you're playing it just had me so invested and that's why I think Sonic Adventure 2 is still one of my favorite games. The gameplay is what had me but the music is what really kept me there and just really made me want to keep playing it. No, I genuinely can agree with you more there. I think for me personally, that moment came with Sonic Adventure, because although Sonic Adventure 2 was absolutely fantastic, I totally agree with you. City Escape is well known amongst
00:06:42
Speaker
Oh goodness knows how many people outside of the fandom. But as I said for me, I remember watching my brother play it and listening to Sonic's theme, It Doesn't Matter, which is something that we will talk about later on in the episode. Absolutely fantastic song that I want to say it was composed by Junson Noe. Yes. other half of Crush 40. I have to say, and this is like such a nerdy side tangent, but you know how in JoJo when people say, oh, what would your stand be? And it's named after a particular band or whatever. See, for me, non-ironically, minds would definitely be called Crush 40. Because
00:07:23
Speaker
I just am such a sonic nerd. I just love the music. Oh, honestly, it's just absolutely brilliant. But between his composing and Tony Harnell on the vocals, honestly, it was brilliant. The whole game just sucked me in because I feel as if the music does play a central role in these games. And again, we'll get into the main riff of it in the episodes, but it definitely caused me to stick around to whether it was the kind of mystical music and the mystic runes or it was the more upbeat pop music of Station Square that played a big part in my life and I have to say, see even before Spotify, before iTunes, I managed to get copies of the music online. I would listen to them on my old scabby mp3 player That's the thing because a lot of people would ask me, oh, what songs are you listening to? Usually I would have one or two popular songs at the time, but mainly it would just be Sonic music. I'm going to be honest. Oh god, yeah. My playlist was a dangerous place to be when I was growing up because there was no telling what you would get. Nine times out of ten, it's either going to be the Sonic Adventure 2 soundtrack, the Sonic Heroes soundtrack, the Sonic Adventure soundtrack. It was going to be some blend.
00:08:38
Speaker
of both vocal and stage music and it was just like, prepare, that's all I'm gonna say is tread carefully. And you know what, suppose that is the perfect segue to get into why we think that this Sonic the Hedgehog music and the soundtracks as a whole are not always so influential but so important to the CD store. See without any further ado, will we just jump into it?
Podcast Sponsorships and Collaborations
00:09:00
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And we will be right back as we spin dash across for that sponsorship after these messages. welcome to shaunami a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime in general andre Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:09:48
Speaker
Join me, Slade, and my two co-hosts, Joey and Tim, over at the Video Game at the Video Game Club on all good podcast providers, and some sketchy ones as well. Hi, this is Dan from Casting Views and you're listening to another great episode from Chatsunami. Let's get back to the show. So, Moth.
Generational Evolution of Sonic Music
00:10:20
Speaker
Yeah. I've got to ask an important question here. OK, I'm a little afraid. No, the other questions weren't important, you know. Well, you can't throw them out the window door if you want, but I won't cry. Anyway. Suffer.
00:10:35
Speaker
yeah but please okay but no look again I'm a little afraid, but I'm happy to hear your question. Yes. So the way we've decided to tackle this episode is to go through just in a general sense, the generations of the series. So, of course, we're going to be focusing on the retro age of Sonic. We're going to be focusing, of course, on the adventure era, which I feel as if has to have its own segment. we're going to be focusing as well on the quote-unquote dark age and swiftly moving on to the modern age, which we will include frontiers by the end, don't you worry. But going on to the retro age, because there is so much discussion around why the music is so iconic even today, because let's face it, Green Hell Zone, that is the quintessential sonic song, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It sure it sure is.
00:11:28
Speaker
yeah Is this the bit where you and I would do that thing from play to turn where like, you know what, I'm gonna say it, Emerald Hill was better than Green Hill Zone? No, it's not even that, it's not even that. This is more like that Family Guy segment of like, you know what, I didn't like the Godfather. Okay, I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with Green Hill Zone. When you think Sonic the Hedgehog, right? Like, Sonic the Hedgehog has just become synonymous with the Green Hill Zone. Thus, he's sort of become a synonymous with the Green Hill Zone stage music. For a while there, if there was any where Sonic was involved, Green Hill would play. It was almost like his theme song at one point. and some would argue it still is. Me, personally, because, like I said, I started in a 3D Sonic era, I don't have the same attachment to Green Hill Zone that a lot of people have. Even going back and playing the games as an adult, I'm like, oh yeah, this is fun because, you know, I'm playing the game. It's really nice. But for every... Listen, I can hear everyone just getting ready. I can hear the paragraphs being typed on Twitter already. I am so tired of Green Hill Zone.
00:12:25
Speaker
you know, in Gladiator with the Emperor sitting there and he goes, it vexes me. I'm terribly vexed. Is this your moment? This is my moment. Don't get me wrong. I will always have a great appreciation for a Green Hill Zone and the OG and like the Side Scroller games. I will always have a great appreciation for them because that's where we started, right? But I am so tired. There's other great music from those games. We do not need any more Green Hill Zone or Chemical Plant. Please, for the love of God. Hey, you'll leave Chemical Plant out of this. What did my boy Chemical Plant do to you? Come on! It's overplayed! It's overplayed! It's right there with Green Hill Zone. Literally, it does not have to always be Green Hill Zone or Chemical Plant. I know that they are two icons, two monoliths of Sonic history, but please, there are other stages you can appreciate for the love of- Ugh! As I said, M. Rotel, just throw that in there. Sky Fortress Zone. Exactly, come on! Cos I mean, what was the other one? Was it Ice Cap Zone? Ice Cap, yeah. Yeah, was that the one that had Michael Jackson's quote-unquote involvement, but not involvement? you know what I think it might have been but it has been a hot minute since I've looked at trivia like that. Yeah because I remember in Sonic 3 there was the thing where it was like oh he was included in the music but then oh he wasn't and you're like which one is it Sega?
00:13:50
Speaker
JG Yeah, exactly. It's just as bizarre, but that actually shows you just how important Sonic the Hedgehog was when they were getting people like Michael Jackson, who was at the pinnacle of his success back then, you know, in the 90s and things. And they were like, oh, do you want to compose a song for us? But they went the kind of Simpsons route where it's like, oh, we kind of got them, but we're not going to say we got them. JG We're not going to say yay or nay, but somebody was here. you But yeah, no, because the thing is, right? because And again, I think that's probably why I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with... I won't say love-hate. I won't say love-hate. I'll say I'm exasperated by it because it's like, come on now, please. There's other great music, other pieces of great music you could use from these games that doesn't have to be the same too. It almost feels like it almost devalues the rest of the soundtrack. So if you only use the two that it's most known for.
00:14:42
Speaker
I have to say, the soundtrack is very reflective on how the series progressed because you have a lot of absolutely fantastic music there. And then, of course, they pluck out the only two that you're like, really? Is ah is that what you're going to go forward with? As you said, Green Hill Zone, Chemical Plant Zone, it's underselling the track. And I have to say, something that I think younger listeners of this episode would really realise back then as the games had to tell their stories through visual cues, but as well the soundtrack complemented that. So for example with Green Hill Zone, I know, I know, it was quite upbeat and very, I wouldn't say fast, but it had a lot of energy to it that you thought, oh this is, as you said, fast. Funny thing that was running through Green Hill Zone. But then of course they had a lot more of a slower motif in, I want to say Marble, is it Marble Zone? Yes, I love Marble Zone. It's one of my favourites. But that's the thing, though, with the music it told the story of, okay, we're going to slow down a bit. We're going to focus more on the platforming rather than running fast, which I know ironic considering it's Sonic the Hedgehog. But it was really cool how they did that. And then by the time it got to Sonic CD, it correct me if I'm wrong, but could Sonic CD be possibly the first soundtrack that had vocals to it? I think it was. If I remember correctly, I think it was. Sonic CD is just like, come on, that is a banger of a soundtrack as well. Sonic Boom is just still one of my favourite songs. I still
Thematic Analysis of Sonic Adventure Series
00:16:20
Speaker
listen to it. It's still on my daily listen. And the fact that there's so many great versions of it now, Crush 40's version went crazy. They had no business going that hard for Sonic Boom, but they did and thank you. No, I love that. That's on my playlist as well, much to my partners dismayed, but I'm the one driving the car, so.
00:16:40
Speaker
Listen, this is why driving anywhere with me was so precarious because it was just kind of like, listen, if you're riding with me, you better be ready for an entire retrospective of every Sonic game ever through the sound of music. Walk all out. Yeah, it's either going to be Sonic or Chatsunami. Choose your poison. Again, that encapsulated the absolute energy that went into Sonic CD. And I'm gonna be honest, Sonic CD isn't my favourite of the retro games. That order surprisingly goes to Sonic 2.
00:17:11
Speaker
I'm gonna say it, because Sonic 2, and this is probably gonna get my Sonic card revoked here if there is such a thing, but Sonic 2 is the only retro game that I feel is if I played fully from start to finish. Listen, if you're gonna do any of them, and i'm listen, I'm gonna be right here with you. We'll go down this burning ship together. So I'm very much the same in the way that of the retro game, Sonic 2 was the one I played most. And it wasn't for anything special other than just, yeah, this is fun game, go zoomy zoomy. Yeah, it was just my favorite. So it's like, I can absolutely relate to you on that front. I mean, don't get me wrong, that doesn't take away from the other games, but at the same time, I feel as if the soundtrack was pivotal in telling a story and a narrative alongside the obvious visuals. Because don't get me wrong, they've been doing that since the dawn of time of cinema with
00:17:59
Speaker
silent pictures that you would have the guy playing the piano beside them, whereas at this time you actually get to control Charlie Chaplin in the screen. If he was a blue hedgehog, but I don't want to think about that crossover. But listen, that'd be the crossover of the century. Yeah, that really would. But it's a weird one because we went from it being pivotal in telling the narrative to when we went to the 3D era, of course, with Sonic Shuffle, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, that it almost became complimentary rather than very, very important because I feel as if without the music it might not have done as well because I played many a game that's very similar to Sonic the Hedgehog and I have to say I don't really remember them as well because I think the soundtracks are so key and the gameplay is on its kind of average whereas with Sonic you've got such a variety of music, of gameplay style that you're able to think wow this is life such an impression but then you get to the adventure series and this is something I was talking to you about if you said save her for the podcast but I feel as if the adventure series does it absolutely pitch perfectly. I'm going to be honest, and this is a bias because I am a massive adventure fanboy here, but I feel as if thematically this is the main thing that the music does in these games. It is very thematical. It's kind of funny that you have almost the same themes translated from Sonic Adventure to Sonic Adventure 2 in the kind of we will get onto it. But for Sonic Adventures as a whole, it just really informs the characters. You've got, as I mentioned before, It Doesn't Matter, which is a very pop rock song that's all about Sonic saying, you know, it doesn't matter in life what happens, you've just got to keep going, you've got to keep believing in yourself. For Tails, I don't know quite enough, call it believing myself. I absolutely love that one. I genuinely, that was very inspirational to me as a kid, I have to say.
00:20:03
Speaker
yeah Yeah, just seeing tales go through this character arc, which was so weird because you're playing a game about a two-tailed fox punching an egg-shaped man that was going to, and I quote, make mint meat out of me. you oh so oh yeah It was terrifying, but at the same time, you're going to fight for this game. so i mean There was that, there was Biggs. I think it's Lazy Day in Paradise. That's more of a kind of jovial, oh look, let's spend the day with a friend. What a banger, though. Oh it was, yeah. I actually remember once I was singing it in school just to myself and I kind of remember the line that something like, oh it's going to be a big sunny day or something like that at one point and someone overheard me and they turned round and went, no actually it's raining outside.
00:20:47
Speaker
And at JU, I was like, what? Listen, the fact that I would have actually cringed so hard that I would have folded up into a singularity, because it's like the amount of times I was caught humming along to my sonic music as well. It's just like, oh, God, please. No, absolutely. way ah Watch that, though. Watch that. But now I'm just over here, like, whenever I reached a certain age and I was driving my own car and everything, listen, the amount of times that I would, I think, actually, funny enough, my car was a little shitbox, right? It was a 1992 Honda Accord. The car was older than me, but it got me where I needed to go as my first car. It was fine. I actually blew out the speakers on my car. Oh, my God. And do you want to know what song I was listening to? Was it Love and Learn? No, it was not. Oh, no.
00:21:32
Speaker
both What was it? It was this machine from Sonic Heroes. Oh, what a boat. It killed the speakers in my car because the combination of the bass licks and the guitar and the chorus was enough to do my car. What did you say to the mechanic? ah anything i just never brought it up around a skull candy sound mine i
00:22:03
Speaker
but with me actually it's literally just over there i can see it from where i'm sitting right now and i put on my dashboard my phone to bluetooth and that's listen to music and That's amazing.
00:22:17
Speaker
But of course, it was a Sonic Cat soundtrack that killed the speakers in my car. I mean, come on now. If there was anybody who that would happen to, I could 100% believe it would be you. It would be me, wouldn't it? I'm not gonna lie. It's definitely you.
00:22:35
Speaker
But I have to say, speaking of playing it in the car, my experience is a bit like, you know that Nick Cage movie?
Impact of 3D Transition on Sonic Music
00:22:42
Speaker
It's like the unbearable weight of Amazing Talent or something like that. Oh, if you know what? I'd probably have to look at the title of the movie. It doesn't immediately ring a bell. Well, you know the scene where it's been memed today now and it's like Nick Cage looks at Pedro Pascal while they're driving. Yes. Yeah, and it's like he's looking very bemused and Pedro Pascal's got a big smile on his face. Imagine that, but instead Pedro Pascal's me and Nick Cage is my girlfriend.
00:23:11
Speaker
ah
00:23:14
Speaker
And it's Sonic blasting out. That is the experience in my car. This is just for me. This is just for me. This is I want to know. This has nothing to do with the podcast. I need to know. Is there a band song in your car from a Sonic soundtrack? No. Oh, thank God. No, no. I mean, if it doesn't make the playlist, it's not getting played, but other than that, no, no, no, there's no band. but That's actually great though. Yeah, going back to... scene so yeah sorry There's just so much thematical music to the Adventure series. As I was saying, we had those other tracks. The Gamma 1 is so damn sad. oh god yeah It's so industrial cold. It's almost like the Golden Eye. soundtrack at times. And then all of a sudden you get a lovely piano rendition when, spoilers, he sacrifices himself to release his friends. I had tears when I was younger and it's absolutely it heartbreaking. The only soundtrack or rather theme that I don't like, and again it's not that I don't like it, I just think it's maybe the weirdest out the bunch, is My Sweet Passion for Amy's song. No, okay, listen. The lyrics, though. The lyrics, come on. Listen, no, that's exactly it. that's exactly I'm so glad you said it. Listen, every time I talk shit about my sweet passion, people are like, what are you talking about? Is it a banger? I'm like, no. No, no, no. Let me guess, are these the kind of people that go, what do you mean he's so cute that I had to shave him? What do you mean? I remember listening to that for the first time and I can imagine it's like someone getting consciousness for the first time and I was like did she say something about shaving Sonic the Hedgehog? Oh yeah exactly. I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this. Do tell. She wasn't and talking about shaving Sonic that's all I'm gonna say. Oh!
00:25:12
Speaker
No. No, that's not what that means, no. but more You take that back right now. Hold on, hold on. I'm gonna look up the lyrics. That cannot be what that means. Hold on, hold on. and No. No, wait. Let me look up the lyrics. of this I'm so sorry, I've traumatized you. No, dark cat no I'm good with that as well. I can't listen to this song again if that's what it means. Listen, the first two lines. Right, first two lines. First two lines of verse two. So, ba-ba-ba-da-ba-da. Right, okay. We got a map, chose a place. I do understand the feelings of a Persian cat, but the slinks look so cute. I had to shave a cat. A cat, and tried to shave it. Never mind Jackie's sonic music now.
00:26:07
Speaker
Now listen, it's just, it's the implication, right? It's the implication. The implication in a Sonic game. Yeah. Listen, she's talking about cats. She's talking about cats. It's just the implication. So one second. What was Amy Rose shaving in Sonic Adventure? Oh my god, I know.
00:26:31
Speaker
The sphinx has no hair.
00:26:35
Speaker
I'm so sorry. I should have said nothing. So I've looked it up and somebody's just said, no one knows for sure. Let's just keep it at that. Listen, it was ruined for me because I saw somebody on TikTok bring it up and I was like, wait a minute. My neighbours are going to be knocking on the door tomorrow. Like, are you good? Are you good? I'm like, no, no. No, I'm really not. By the way, I'm quitting the podcast. Here's my card. Yeah, we're done. What's my vote to Sonic 2? What's my vote to Sonic Adventure 2, because... That sounds ruined for me now. I know, I'm so sorry. The thing is, right, it's not overtly spoken. It's not overtly spoken, but... It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be. It's wild. The thing is, right, in my heart of hearts, this is completely serious here. I do not think that's what they meant. No, no, don't decide. I hope that is not what they meant. No, no, I don't think so. No, because that's fucking weird. That is weird, but if it is Sega, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, oh my god. But no, it's moving swiftly on. Moving swiftly on to Sonic Adventure 2. Yeah, let's escape from this city right here and now. Please, please. We need to, we need crusty ones out. No, the world needs music.
00:27:51
Speaker
but So just kind of giving a blanket statement over Adventure and Adventure 2. I feel as if, as I was saying, that the music is of course complimentary given the visual upgrade compared to the original games but you know you've got so many iconic soundtracks. You've got Emerald Coast which is fantastic. Final Egg there is an absolutely fantastic moment in that where they've got a guitar track. It's really annoying because they've got this very almost subdued, very mechanical again soundtrack when you go into Eggman's bass and everything and then all of a sudden you go into the second part of the live when they have this hanging guitar track as I said just shredding that guitar is absolutely brilliant and it's something that they of course brought into the sequel for Sonic Adventure 2 where whenever Eggman appears it just characterizes him perfectly because it's just It's bombastic, it's on your face, it's very self-congratulatory, you know, he's patting himself on the back saying, I am the Eggman. It is brilliant. It's just, I even sing along to Abigail and you'll go for the Eggman Empire. Oh yeah. And the thing is, right, you were talking about the soundtrack for Sonic Adventure, right? It was more, it's something I meant to bring up a little bit sooner than this, but the fact is, like for the retro games, right? The music wasn't so much from a narrative standpoint, it was more of a backdrop sort of thing, right? because The narrative in the retro games was loose at best. You knew you had to defeat Robotnik to free the Flickies, all of that. That's about it. So the music back then needed to be more of a representative of the stage itself rather than anything going on in the stage. So like you said, for the stages like Marble Zone, it's a little bit more drawn back because you know it's focused more on platforming than just outright speed. So it sort of lends to the gameplay rather than the characters themselves. Sonic Adventure I think was the shift in musical storytelling in the Sonic series anyway, towards rather than it just being stage specific and providing ambience and a backdrop to the stage to actually being a part of the story as well. you started getting event music, you started getting character themes. Now me personally, because I started with Sonic Adventure 2, I tend to prefer the covers that we got in Sonic Adventure 2 better because I feel like they more accurately represent the characters that they are supposed to be a portrayal of. And because, you know, this is something else that's actually really important is the fact that this was a shift into the characters, a part of the narrative when it comes to explaining the characters who they are as a character is the shift in the tone for the music that represents them. You know, Sonic was more of a rock sound. Tails was more upbeat pop. Shadow, his music relating to Shadow was more of and a grungy and industrial sound. Eggman was very mechanical. And then, of course, Rouge, I would say, was R and&B slash jazz. And then Knuckles was more hip hop. Knuckles is a weird one. Yeah, with Knuckles, he's got the theme unknown from me or Emmy. Don't get me wrong, that is a fantastic theme, especially where you've got the cheesy lyrics like, unlike Sonic, I don't chuckle. ahha That has become a quintessential meme at that point, where people are pointing out saying, hold on, he's chuckling there. Wait a minute. Yeah. Liar! You laughed against me.
00:31:10
Speaker
you'll have done that yourself. Anyway, Star Wars memes aside, it was really cool. But then I feel as if they upped it to, I wanna say, a thousand in Sonic Adventure 2 with a slightly controversial figure. Is that Hunter P or something like that? Hunter P, the rapper who doubts Pumpkin Hill and unknown from Amy. yeah He's a very, very interesting fellow. I'll leave it at that, but the fact is, you had a theme going on and then they just kind of upped it to 11 in Adventure 2, but then they just kept going with it. But before we go, and I suppose we can loop this into The Dark Age as a whole before we even get into this, right, I think calling it the Dark Age is really unfair. I don't understand why people consider these games to be the Dark Age, but then again, that's just me. Well, I have to say that's why when we did our Sonic month, oh, when was it last year? Or maybe the year before? Time is a flat circle, honestly. But when we did our Sonic the Hedgehog month, we split it into the Retro Age, the Dark Age, and then the Modern Age, but then we had a complete little separate episode for the adventure series because I feel as if it's kind of in its own bubble but going off of that I feel as if the only thing that the adventure series and I would say up until Shadow the Hedgehog had in common was the very very thematic main theme which is something I don't feel as if they have as much anymore.
Main Themes in Sonic Adventure and Heroes
00:32:41
Speaker
I know we'll get to that at the end, but for Sonic Adventure, you had Open Your Heart, which fitted perfectly about Sonic fighting this huge creature who knew nothing but hatred and destruction and was just guided in the wrong direction. Granted, they shouldn't have drowned the city, but that's fine. They're not there. All's well that ends well.
00:32:59
Speaker
For Sonic Adventure 2, we had Live and Learn where Shadow came to terms with the person, or rather the hedgehog that he was, and he used his power to help save the world, which I thought absolutely fantastic. What I'm made of, of course, in Sonic Heroes where Sonic knuckles and tails, they took down the Metal Overlord, or Metal Sonic, Neo Metal Sonic, well, of the game and apparently I took them down and showed them what, and again, I kind of throw up in my mouth a little when I say, oh, they showed them what true friendship was. But that was the whole theme of the game. For something that's really interesting is, to me, what I'm made of was never really a representation of Sonic. What I'm made of is one of my favorite final boss themes ever. one of my absolute favorite ones. And one of the reason why is one of my favorites. And not only is it a certified banger, but it's also one of the first that you could say was from the point of view of the villain you were fighting. What I'm made of to me looked into Metal Sonic or Metal Overlord's mindset while you were battling him. And I always thought that that was so refreshing. Like when I was younger, I was like, this is a little bit strange, you know, because it's just talking about leaving somebody as a black mark on a floor doesn't really seem like something that would be becoming of a hero. But then the more I thought about it, and as I got older, and I played the game again, and the more I looked at it, I was like, you know what, actually, actually, This is more of a battle theme that feels like the struggle between our bad guy and the heroes that we're playing as, the heroes that we're rooting for. So it kind of can be read as it's from Metal Sonic's point of view, but also can represent both sides of the conflict simultaneously and I think that is just so neat. Oh no, absolutely. It was a really interesting way for them to go with it and something you brought up earlier when you said that you blew your speakers out. but
00:34:55
Speaker
this machine. Again, they bring back the grammatical themes as well. You know, you've got this machine, you've got, I think it's Follow Me or, oh, what's the Team Rose one? Oh, Team Rose? Yeah, Follow Me. It's actually, it's a really cute song. And don't get me wrong, I was a certified Amy hater growing up. I could not stand her. But now as I've gotten older, and I've gotten to know her more as a character, and she's been developed more as a character, in more modern games as well, I understand her a bit better. And of course, you've got the Team Sonic. I'm just trying to remember what theirs is. Is it just Sonic Heroes? they Oh, there's just We Can, yeah. Because Sonic Heroes was the overall theme of the game, whereas We Can was the Team Sonic theme. Of course. But that pales in comparison to Team Chaotix!
00:35:39
Speaker
because they are detectives who are on your side. i mean Listen, Team Chaotix again had no business going that hard but I was listening because I actually had a physical copy of Sonic Heroes soundtrack and I was just like this goes hard for no reason but thank you. You don't have to put this in the podcast because like I mentioned earlier before we started right, I had Sonic music playing in the background while we were gonna do this. Team Chaotix literally just started. Nice. that's actually pretty great. That is amazing. And before we move on to the latter half of the quote unquote dark age slash the modern age, because I feel as if the tailwind of the dark age with Sonic 06 onwards can be lumped together with the first half of the modern age and I will get on to why I think that. But of course, quickly touching on Shadow before we move on. While I think the the theme I am, although, you know, the game is controversial, we know how terrible it is, haha, he chalks with guns, but the theme I am all of me and never turn back are some of my favourites. The piano score, fantastic. And then it leads you into the rock, it is so good.
00:36:56
Speaker
of a controversial opinion on this one, actually, believe it or not. Well, more controversial. Yeah, no, listen, I'm feeling spicy today. But no, so when it comes to Shadow the Hedgehog, absolutely, I am all a great song, never turn back certified banger. But if you were to ask me what I thought the real official canon theme for Shadow the Hedgehog is, it's waking up. Why? What do you mean by, listen to the, read the lyrics, okay? Look, last time I read the lyrics I wanted to quit the podcast, okay? What do you mean? you mean? Oh no, I'm still reeling from my sweet passion.
00:37:34
Speaker
I'm not forward for that again, okay? No, no, no, listen, listen, listen, unironically, just reading the lyrics, right? This to me was always the quintessential theme for Shadow the Hedgehog, just because by the end of Shadow the Hedgehog, right, even though the game itself, it was by no means stellar, but I had fun playing it. I genuinely enjoyed Shadow the Hedgehog, but that's just because I was an edgy teenager more often than not. But the whole thing about Shadow's journey in that game, it was a journey of transformation, where you ultimately had the choice of how you wanted to do it, but the true ending had you somewhere in the middle. Shadow decided that Shadow was just going to be Shadow, and that was further reinforced by his story arc in Sonic 06.
00:38:13
Speaker
where he openly says to Mephiles, again spoilers here guys, he says to Mephiles that it doesn't matter what the world thinks of him. He is going to live and he is going to do what he thinks is right. He has a sense of justice and he's not really letting himself be dragged down by the expectations that others had for him. So for me, waking up is such a great example of that mindset. This one right here, like one step to calm the storm inside you, unlock the secrets in your head. Not another day, no more confusion, no more living like the dead. It seems it's just out of sight, the ones with answers always get their way, but I think that they should know that we're coming for them now. Come on now. Waking Up to Me I think is just such a great example of Shadow's mindset by the end of the game, and I think that that was a quintessential theme. I'm pretty sure Waking Up was a song you got with the true neutral ending. probably. That's what I want to say. And that's why to me, I think it's the Shadow of the Hedgehog theme, even though I Am All of Me is the theme song and my heart is waking up. Well, it's no bingo highway. It really isn't. It really isn't bingo highway. Listen, I will fight you over bingo highway. Yeah, we were fighting. It was about to come through fisticuffs. Yeah, we were fighting before we came on tonight recording and I was seeing how it's like ADHD for the years. That's why it's so good. As an owner of an ADHD brain, you have no idea how good that scratches the brain. But how can you say that when you're trying to slam big the cat as a pinball up the big pinball machine and it keeps falling down and all you hear is doo doo doo doo doo doo. If I go to hell, that'll be playing on loop and I'll just be falling forever. Never able to get up the cosmic pinball machine. Listen, I'ma just say it right now, and this is gonna be shots fired, but sounds like a skill issue to me. I mean,
00:39:59
Speaker
so moth we've reached the end of the episode how to a few Listen, this has just been an episode of me bullying you. I'm so sorry. Maybe going to Sonic 06. Moving on, yeah. So as I was saying before, Sonic 06 and a lot of the games that preceded it have a very interesting
Orchestral Shift in Sonic's Dark Age
00:40:17
Speaker
connection. And that, of course, is the fact that the Sonic seemed to, although it always retained its kind of rock roots, you know, you still had Crush 40 up until a very particular point. And when they say as far as before,
00:40:33
Speaker
so they unleashed. I don't think they used Crush 40 as much after Sonic Unleashed because I don't think they were even then unleashed. If they were, please Sonic fans, let me know. Yeah, that's what I thought. Because I know endless possibilities isn't them. JG No, but you want to know who was in those possibilities, which just blew my mind. who wasn't I know he's ahead of a band. I just don't remember which band it is. Is it Bowling for Soup? No, not Bowling for Soup. damn look at me go so in those possibilities was sung by the head for bowling for soup and like once you know that you can sort of hear it don't get me wrong i love crush 40 and crush 40 i think served as the foundation for so many great great sonic soundtracks crush 40 is like the granddaddy for modern sonic music, and I think it's just so good. But I also really like the fact that they weren't afraid to sort of shift gears and let other talents step up. And I think that endless possibilities now this is probably going to be another weird opinion. I'm chock full of them. But I think when I think of like, what is the theme song for Sonic? For Sonic the Hedgehog as a character, if you had to go through and pick a song that you thought embodied Sonic the Hedgehog as a character entirely, I think Endless Possibilities is the one. That is fair. That is fair. That's such a wild concept as well because Sonic Unleashed, when the game was released, It was treated so strangely because they decided how very dare Sonic Team do something different, you know? Add like a whole new way of play for Sonic when arguably it had some of the best kept momentum and speed in the daytime sections. And I loved the brawling of the nighttime sections. I loved being able to just smack little shadow creatures around, you know? It was great. It was great fun. And who doesn't love listening to jazz while you're beating the crap out of shadow monsters and robots, you know? Hi there, I'm Sat Tsunami.
00:42:18
Speaker
Wait, hold on. Listen, are we gonna fight again? Is this round three? Listen, see when you hear that jazz riff for like the fiftieth time, you see the barrier pop up and if I have to listen to it, I'm not doing well, Moth. I'm not doing well. No, listen, you know what? I'll give you that. They could have done some variants. Yeah, it's just that repetition. Otherwise, the soundtrack is stellar. But going back to overall, that is something I find fascinating because going back to all sexual, you've got all your rock themes, you've got with the exception of Silver, which is really weird because you've got Zebrahead doing his world, which is great. Oh, the Zebra Head version was so good. Like I said, I love Crush 40, but Zebra Head's version was just love it. You've got Crush 40, I think, coming back for All Hail Shadow, which seems to be the only time. I think that's probably one of the last appearances. Yes, but let me tell you, they went out with a bang because I am on my knees in reverence for Crush 40's version of All Hail Shadow. Magnify was great. Crush 40 did it so much better. No, they were absolutely fantastic. You had Dreams of Absolution, which is a great song, but I like the Bentley Jones version better, honestly. Yeah, the Bentley Jones version is great. You know what's really funny about that song though? I found out about sometime last year that I can't remember the name of the artist who did Dreams of an Absolution now, but that same artist has released five other different versions of that song in different fonts. Have you seen these? Oh yeah. I'm struggling to understand, like, what are you doing there, chief? Like, what? What's happening? Are you okay? It's like Dreams of an Absolution and the cooler Dreams of an Absolution. No, literally. And the fact is, I mean, they're good, but it's just like, I don't understand why Dreams of an Absolution has had five different remasters by the same guy. Well, I feel as if the weirder one, before I get into the positives here about this era of sonic music, the weirdest one to me is at least this theme I like. I really like, although, you know, there's the whole, it's a hey joke, kissing a human girl, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, we've been there this entire trope.
00:44:19
Speaker
We've all done that. We've been over this. That one's just beat to death. Chaos control yourself back to 2006 if you want to discuss it because, you know, everybody's figured it to death. But the one thing I find really, really bizarre is they got Acorn in to do a remix of Elise's theme. But they mix it in with the ending of the Sonic 2 theme. It's really bizarre because if you look at Sonic 2, it's about this friendship of Tails and Sonic going on this grand adventure and everything. Yeah, it was really cool. But then they remix it into this love song between Elise and Sonic. I don't know, it's just, I'm not saying that it's terrible, but it's just weird. It's just a weird choice.
00:45:02
Speaker
The thing is, I kind of get it. I kind of get it. it's like it's I think when they brought in Akon, it wasn't... Yeah, like the remix. Yeah, no, pretty much. The thing is, right, I kind of understand it because it's like, you don't make a choice like that just haphazardly. I think that there was some genuine thought put into how they wanted to handle the remix of the ending theme. And I think that it was a very conscious choice to pick that song because I think it suited the sound they wanted to go for for the song itself. And while it may seem strange listening to it back, that version is my preferred version of the song Sweet Dream, because to me, again, it just makes sense. It's good to sort of go back to those old themes, again, something other than Green Hill Zone, and sort of have a little callback to it. I think it's nice. Oh, no, absolutely. Now I've got nothing to add to that. You've got nothing? It's like, yeah, Yeah, yeah. Sure. Pop off, Queen. Seven out of ten. It's okay.
00:45:56
Speaker
Like, it's not mid, but it's not great. But something I find really interesting, as I said about this era, is how the main theme is, of course, related to Sonic and it is always a rock or a very light metal. Let's face it. Please tell me you're going to bring up the orchestral themes. Yep. I'm so happy. I want to talk about these so much. I love them. I love them. I love them. I love them. So of course you've got Kezwaru for Sonic's theme and then of course you've got the amazing orchestral composition for Solaris Phase 2. That's the one. I love that. Solaris Phase 2, oh I love it. For Sonic Unleashed you've got endless possibilities and then you've got the Dark Gaia theme.
Deep Dive into Orchestral Sonic Themes
00:46:40
Speaker
Sonic Colors does a similar our thing where they've got Reach for the Stars and then they've got a remix. They do the same in Sonic Forces as well, but again, it doesn't work as well. Not that it doesn't work, but I don't think it's as impactful in Colors and Forces. Yeah, Reach for the Stars is a song that I feel like it just didn't lend itself well to an orchestral reprise. A reprise. A reprise. A reprise. Again, we're getting a little spicy here. There are very few games where I feel like that Sonic team fumbled the bag when it comes to music. Sonic Forces is one of them. No. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. Let me backtrack.
00:47:20
Speaker
Oh, to be fair, I never played Lost World. Okay, okay, okay. Excuse me. I never played Lost World. Yeah, I haven't played Lost World, so I don't know what the music is like for that one. I thought this bump was just really underwhelming. It was fast, it was loud, and it was talking about we'll show the world what we can do. Like, yeah, that's very sonic, but it was kind of like... going to be honest, Sonic Forces is like my guilty pleasure enjoyment because it's quite underwhelming, but I would take it over colours and certainly Lost World. I genuinely cannot remember what the main theme for Lost World is. I don't even know, like I said, I haven't played Lost World. I saw the Pixar looking villains and I was like, and I kind of gave it a pass, so we did play that one.
00:48:01
Speaker
which is so weird because the comics seem to really redeem them but not enough for me to go back and say it was a good game because I genuinely don't like it. yeah like um like there are some games where nostalgia is definitely adding some value points to it shall the hedgehog great example sonico six great example sonic forces and soniclos world not so much What would you say The difference is though, see if we just compare Sonico 6 and Sonic Unleashed with Solaris Phase 2 and Dark Gaia because for me personally, I feel as if Solaris Phase 2 is one of the most beautiful tracks in the entirety of the franchise. The thing is, right, I think that Solaris Phase 2 was lightning in a bottle. They did it and they did it well. And so everything after that just sort of felt a little bit underwhelming because Endless Possibility, like I said, is a great song. I would say even stare say like the Sonic theme song, but it just didn't have the same impact.
00:48:56
Speaker
as Solaris Phase 2 did. It didn't have the same weight. It didn't feel as triumphant. And I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that, again, it was Solaris Phase 2. The first half of the fight had its own separate theme. Nobody talks about Solaris Phase about Solaris Phase 1. People are like, really? You're going to go nuts at this, but do you know what it is? It's the bad boys of the Sonic soundtracks. You know, no one talks about bad boys. They talk about bad boys, too. yeah never They never talk about it.
00:49:28
Speaker
but but the biggest thing about Solaris Phase 2, right, is that it just felt so triumphant. Like this was the climax. Yeah. And this is what everything that we went through up to this point, it all comes down to this. And I think that that's what made it such a great moment. Whereas I think that while Sonic Unleashed was a great game, had an amazing soundtrack, I feel an endless possibilities. Amazing main theme for Sonic. I just think that the Dark Gaia fight just didn't hit the same. It just didn't hit the same. and I don't know if it's because, I don't know, I can't really explain why. Because I'm actually playing through Sonic Unleashed again. I haven't quite and gotten to Dark Gai again. We should believe I'm lost. I am lost in Sonic Unleashed. To be fair, I don't think I've actually completed Sonic Unleashed. This is an exclusive year. No. I got to the last boss fight and I think I gave up because of how annoying. You know what? This is it. What we're gonna do, what we're gonna do is I'm gonna stream-saw a gun leash and we'll finish it together. Saw it soon. Why don't? It just didn't have the same impact. Once you get it the first time, every time after that, you're just kind of like, okay, it's this again. Like, yeah, the orchestral version is good. But again, I just think that Solaris Phase 2 is just such lightning in a bottle. It was so good. And the fact is, and I think another thing that really tied into it is that a lot of the music that was in Sonic 06, a lot of like the stage music and even some of the themes, even like the trailer version of his world, right, had a lot of orchestral elements in it already. There was so much going into it. There was so much dotted throughout the soundtrack that sort of alluded to like, Oh, okay, we're going more cinematic here.
00:51:01
Speaker
We're getting a little bit more of a drama going here. When it finally reached that last Solaris Phase 2, when it reached the penultimate, not the penultimate, when it reached the ultimate climax, right? And it was a full orchestral arrangement of the main theme that we had been hearing all throughout the game, right? Oh, so good. It was so good. Hello? And they haven't really done anything with that again with any other games, which is a little bit sad. It is really strange, because even Sonic Frontiers, and don't worry we'll get onto that soon as the final point, but you're completely right, it is really weird the way the—I want to say that the story has ironically enough impacted the soundtrack because it used to be, as I said before, it used to be the soundtrack and the retro age that was boosting the—although it was a simple story, it was still showing you what kind of level this was. you were supposed to feel in the moment? ALICE Exactly. Whether it was very slow and methodical for Marble Zone, whether it was a bit more high energy for Green Hill Zone, Emerald Zone, Mushroom Hill Zone, you know, whatever start zone you would have put in the year. As you said, it informed how you were supposed to feel for that. Whereas the further the series went on, it definitely got a lot more all over the place, I wanna say. When Sonic 06 came out, it was a big grand story. Same with the Sonic Adventure series, and it is controversial to say it could have been Sonic Adventure 3, but if it had succeeded, I genuinely think that- Oh, it absolutely would have been. It was a spiritual successor. It was definitely like a shadow sequel, or like a pseudo-sequel to Sonic Adventure. It had to have been, because
00:52:38
Speaker
You had three different stories you could play through, right? Three different campaigns that all came together to one end, where you had your three protagonists working together to fend off the great evil. It's a given. And I think it's an element that I feel like is missing from um games that have followed, right? And it's not to say that the games that followed were bad because they missed the elements. You know how I mentioned before how the orchestral theming was sort of littered throughout Sonic 06 that sort of alluded to we were going to get a big conclusion like that, right? That was missing from games that came after it. In fact, what was really interesting to me, like even though Sonic Unleashed was revolutionary for a lot of different things, right? and Especially in the way that it introduced motifs. into games that sort of follow the characters and follow even Chip has a motif. It's very short, but Chip has a motif and it comes through in the Light Gaia themes. Sonic's motif was entirely different than Endless Possibility. Endless Possibility was the theme of the game, but what we followed because Sonic was the protagonist is we followed the motif that we got for Sonic, not Endless Possibility. So in a way, it's like we started within this possibility in the opening cutscene, but then we ended with the orchestral version of it, but there was little to no presence of the theme in the game to lead up to it. The only counter-argument I would have for that, and I feel as if it's more prevalent in the Dark Gaia theme, is you can definitely tell there's a back and forth in and the composition. you know It's almost as if it's trying to matter that theme of Sonic fighting against Shiroi's darker urges as the werehog. Again, it's probably not that deep considering it's a Sonic the Hedgehog game.
00:54:15
Speaker
i would absolutely agree because something else is really interesting because you mentioned i'm sorry i didn't mean to cut you off there go for The thing about the themes, I wish I could remember the name of the creator, but I watched an amazing video analysis on the use of motifs in games like Sonic Unleashed, and Chip's theme was really interesting, because Chip's motif is literally four notes, but when you hear it, it's fragmented, it's not quite complete. Do you know where else that appears? It appears in the Dark Gaia theme. okay But you don't get the full established theme for Chip until you get to the Light Gaia segment. that's cool And so Chip's theme becomes complete when he remembers who he is, and his theme is tied into Sonic's theme. And again, Sonic's theme is prevalent throughout Ami- Sonic's motif. that du
00:54:58
Speaker
da da da That's the fucking victory music! Sonic's theme is everywhere in that, but Endless Possibility is nowhere. So I think that that's what really sort of why Solaris Phase 2 was so much better for me in that regard versus Dark Gaia fight theme was because you had prevalence and you had the theme throughout the game to sort of follow you. So when you come to this moment, it makes sense. But you come up to this and you have Endless Possibility, which is the orchestral version of it, right? That you had at the start, art but it was pretty much absent throughout the entirety of the game until this point. That's a fair point, though. The thing that I think these games did particularly well was they almost build up to them as well. Oh, absolutely. This is the thing I have to admit. I think this is where I give live and learn the edge over and open your heart because it starts a lot quicker.
00:55:49
Speaker
And again, there's the whole back and forth, and there's always that kind of shining optimism. That is always the underlying theme of all of them. If you listen to it Open Your Heart, there's this little build up, you hear the water surrounding everything, and then you've got the massive guitar boom. going on with Love and Learn, you know, it's that hopeful optimism, especially in the lyrics, you know, hanging on the edge of tomorrow with what I'm made of. You've got, again, that whole back and forth that, oh, I'm going to show you who I am. And especially, even without lyrics, especially with Solaris Phase 2. Oh, yeah.
00:56:25
Speaker
Oh, you've just got that very slow build up. It's that slow build up. It's that you're facing off. And then it builds up to this massive crescendo of just hope and optimism. It's like, okay, let's do this. We've got to do this. We're going to win. again going on to Dark Gaia, although I totally agree with you. I don't feel as if it does it as good as Solaris Phase 2, but there is still that kind of conflict with itself. But I do agree that the later games, when they pop up, they're just doing a rendition of the theme. And I think, again, going back to what I was saying, I feel as if after the Dark Age and, you know, that Sega wanted to play a bit more safe and rightfully so, that you have these games that are very more child friendly and everything. And it's personally for me, I feel as if it heavily impacted the music. Oh, it absolutely did. Part of the reason why I didn't play Lost World was because, like I said, I grew up on games like Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic 06 that had these darker, I don't want to say darker as in like, oh, like it's super dark, it's super edgy sort of storylines, right? But they were definitely more meaningful than what we got from some of the games like Sonic Colors as a great example. To me, it just kind of felt like the Sonic team there for a second when trying to make their games more accessible for younger audiences, whether it's going to be audiences with young families, families with young kids and everything like that who are going to be playing Sonic games for the first time, it almost felt like they were talking down to their audience a little bit. Well, I feel as if that is partly due to during the 2010s that Nintendo had a, I want to say a 3D game deal with Sega, where they were going to bring out 3D games for a kind of a moment. It was either 3 or 4, because I'm trying to remember which ones there were. There was Sonic Colors, which of course came out for the Wii, but I don't know if that was the exclusive, if that must have been Sonic. Yeah, you had Sonic Colors, you had Sonic Boom, which I have to say I don't really know much about the soundtrack there. He had Sonic Lost World, which again, it's very forgettable. I don't know if there was a Sonic and Mario at the Olympic Games or something like that that came out at the same time, but again, you wouldn't really think of that. It's very muted in comparison. I feel as if they are trying to get the highs of the previous games without really putting in the legwork in terms of the emotional core. of the games which brings me on to my final point because one game that we have to finish off on is Sonic Frontiers. I have mixed opinions.
00:59:06
Speaker
don't get me wrong, I think that the soundtrack overall is fantastic. You know, Unbreakable is amazing. Breakthrough it all. Absolutely great bop in the gym. Vandalise I really like as well. Maybe this is going to attract the ire of a lot of Sonic fans. Hashtag what's new. ah ah for legal reasons, that's a joke. But I don't feel as if there's a definitive theme for Sonic Frontiers. I disagree. Do tell. I disagree, because there's one you're really missing here, and I think it's really key. And it took a while to grow on me, admittedly, but it was what got me really invested. I was supposed to grow on me because it got me invested from the first sort of trailers when we got for Frontiers and the first sort of idea of what the music was going to sound like for Frontiers. What they displayed was, I'm here. Oh, of course. And that, to me, is just such the song for Sonic Frontiers, because it encompasses everything that Sonic is going through on the Starfall Islands. And it just literally says it in the name, like, I'm here, far across these new frontiers, you know? In my hands, I hold the ones I love. It's such a great song. Because the thing is, right? Okay, I'm going to tell him myself a little bit here. I haven't played the new final boss for the updated final final boss. Same. Because I did the hard ending expecting all this is going to be neat and it wasn't. It sucked. Yeah, it was awful. And I'm like, what the hell is this? You could tell that like everything after the night was sort of shoehorned in. They is like, we want you to make the game longer. So do this. And it showed. It showed horrifically. From what I understand, though, they have updated it, so it's gotten better. So I really want to see what that's like. I might do that on stream. I don't know. We'll find out. But I think that I'm here is a great addition to the Sonic theme song Hall of Fame, really. Some might say it's a little bit on the nose for me. I think it's perfect to get the message across.
01:00:56
Speaker
And that comes from a soundtrack that already did so much good. God, they did not have to go that hard. Kellen Quinn did not have to go that hard. We're used to getting one good boss vocal theme per Sonic game. They gave us three. Maybe this is just me being picky here, but I feel as if when I first heard OK Rocks vandalise, which I have to say, I was really surprised when my girlfriend went and listened to it in the car, and she went, oh, OK, Rock. And I was like, how do you know that? It's just like. No. Oh, my God. Have you listened to the actual version of the song? Oh, yeah. yeah Oh, it's wild.
01:01:35
Speaker
I know the swear word. Yeah. It changes. The song changes entirely. with One word. Yeah. I'm driving up along and I have to turn it down at that bit. And it's like, do the pain away. But I know that they say that Vandalize is supposed to be the ending theme, right? Again, it feels a little strange to have Vandalize on there when I'm here is right there, but they're treating I'm here or more as a boss theme. I genuinely don't understand why, though, to be honest. I don't understand why they have Vandalizing there to begin with, other than the fact that they've got a very popular band and they've sung the song. It's almost like Sonic 06, but instead of having His World as the main theme, you would have something like, you know, a Lisa's theme, like the remix version. And it's like, oh no, this is the real version because Akon sang and that and you're like, no, that's not how it works. i Again, I like to vandalise. I think it's a good song, but I feel as if it's so out of place because look back to the games that we've talked about, you know, what is the main theme for Sonic Adventure is Open Your Heart. Again, it's about opening your heart to the terribleness of the world. What is the one for Sonic Adventure 2? It's living there. and then you've got what I'm made ah of and so on and so forth. So I feel as if for the Dark Age, for all of the folks it has up until Sonic Unleashed, there is a definitive theme for each of those games. But everything after, although there are definitive themes, I don't know. I don't feel as if there's one track, you know, that defines the games that you could point to and say, oh,
Cultural Impact of Sonic Music
01:03:09
Speaker
that's great. I genuinely have never met anyone who says, oh, I love Reach for the Stars.
01:03:14
Speaker
is my favourite and everything compared to the previous ones and I feel as if that's where for me it gets a little muddled. Do you know what actually reminds me of? You know when we were younger and in the 90s and the early 2000s, especially for the Pokémon movie because the Pokémon movie has this issue, remember they had a CD full of songs from the movie and it was like Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, well maybe not Justin Timberlake but NSYNC, things like that, even them, Baby Spice for some reason, anybody. she sang us along for her. But they weren't in the film, they were in the credits and on this CD and they just had it there because they're like oh look at all these famous people attached to the film even though it wasn't in the actual main part of the film. I feel as if in a way that's what it feels like for some of these new ones where it's like oh we've got this really famous and talented band here but yeah it's not as impressive as they might think.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, and the thing is you have a really good point there because for all the good that Sonic Frontiers has going for it, I do think that that is one that definitely suffers for it. And the fact that like you have these great boss themes, but the fact that the game itself has a quote unquote theme that doesn't really feel like a theme when one of the first songs that we got for Sonic Frontiers was I'm Here, the short version of I'm Here. I feel like that should have been considered the theme, especially since it got a remaster for like a And so there was a remake or remaster, but it got an edit for the new updated final boss, which again, I haven't done. I haven't played the final boss. I haven't even listened to the song. I just know that it exists. And I really look forward to being able to listen to that at some point whenever I'm playing the game, hopefully. But no, I think that for all of the good things that Frontiers has going for it, I think the lack of a clear cut theme is what really sort of sets it back a little bit. Yeah, they could have done something more with it and I feel bad for saying that because don't get me wrong, it does make you feel as if you're in this grand and epic battle with each of the Titans and I think that's fantastic and I feel as if they're going in the right direction. That's what we'll say. I don't think they're quite there yet. They took a risk.
01:05:23
Speaker
Yeah. I will say that Infinite's theme walked so that Undefeatable, Breakthrough It All, and Find Your Flame could sprint because those songs did not have to go as hard as they did. I, like many other creators that I've watched play the game for the first time, had to pause. I had to leave my game sitting on that i tutorial screen when the music started because I'm like, what am I listening to right now? Why is it going this hard? And mind you, I listened to a lot of sonic music growing up. But I also when I was in middle school, and I'm a middle school, but in high school and things like that, I also went through a metal core, like I started listening to our metal core. And so things like that just immediately just hit just It hit right in that spot of just like, okay, this is a banger. And this is going to be going on my playlist yesterday. And it has done. I've listened to those songs so many times. I'm about sick of them keyword about sick of them. I'm not sick of them yet. So I must listen to them more until I hate them. So I think they took a big risk.
01:06:18
Speaker
with the direction that they went with the battle themes in Sonic Frontiers. And I think that the rest of the soundtrack is lacking. yeah Like the stage music is forgettable. But this is also coming from somebody who I did not want them to do the cyberspace levels at all. I would have been happy with the game without the cyberspace levels. If we would have just had the open world Sonic game... No, Sega, don't be listening to this bit, okay? Listen, I'm gonna say this, but you're not allowed to take this one with it, okay? A part of me wants one of them to just do the open world and it would feel like and have like bosses and encounters just out there for you to find. A bit like a souls-like. Another crab's treasure, but Sonic. You're playing a very dicey game here. Oh, I am. I'm very aware, but I think it'd be fun. And I have to say, as a kind of closing point to our discussion, I have to say there's a lot of other soundtracks that we haven't really touched on that I think deserve an honorable and dishonorable mention.
01:07:12
Speaker
I have two, just straight up that I can talk about. Is this the storybook CDs by chance? Yes, it actually is. I still think that sonics but Sonic, specifically Sonic and the Black Knight is one of my favorite soundtracks. Oh yes, great. And Sonic Riders. Ooh, okay. but Specifically the first Sonic Riders game. yeah Zero Gravity was a little eh. But the first one, Bangers. All of them. All the track themes, Bangers. i have to say although I didn't really appreciate Sonic Riders as much I do appreciate the soundtrack which is a very running theme for a lot of fans of the franchise I feel but no they were absolutely fantastic. After a minute I do like Seven Rings in Hand.
01:07:47
Speaker
that is by steve conti yes seven rings in hand is great also oh no what's the name of the song i can't remember i can't think of the name off top of my head oh something about the palace we found who's gonna rock the place place who's gonna rock place admittedda rock place yeah so just scratch is my brain so good Some infamous ones though, well sorry one more famous one, Sonic Rush I feel as though I've had a few good ones. god yeah but had such jetset radio vibes for me and i love it The ones I didn't like though, Sonic Chronicles.
01:08:27
Speaker
That's such a hub theme, which I shall not be naming. Which is a shame because I didn't get to play it myself, but from what I've heard, it's a good game. It's just the music sucked. I mean, I played it and now you I would totally enjoyed it from what I remember, but the music wasn't doing anything for me, I have to say. Except the intro theme. I thought the intro theme was really cool, But beyond that, nah, the music was very lacking because I can't even remember much of it. Sonic 4 as well. And again, it's picking off the low-through keyer to say all the game gear games as well. Not great. Of course, the other undesirable spin-off games. I don't think anyone's rocking out to Eggman's Mean Bean Machine soundtrack. Hey, speak for yourself.
01:09:09
Speaker
in truth as I Is that how your second car went out? that's exactly it just bump in some mean bean machine come on now Oh, exactly. But I just want to say that something that I absolutely adore about the soundtracks as a whole, whether the games are great, whether the games are bad, the soundtrack is the unifying force throughout the entire
Contributions of Artists to Sonic Legacy
01:09:30
Speaker
franchise. Everybody says, oh, you know, whether the game's good, whether the game's bad, even the weaker soundtracks like Sonic Forces where you've got the Infinite theme, which is a bad I don't care. Like I said, Infinite walked so that way all of the boss themes from Frontiers could run. so Oh absolutely. But the fact is that it holds such an important and special place in the fanbase's heart and something that I absolutely adore as well and something that I think I was talking to you about a couple of months ago was when I was watching the, I think it was the
01:10:04
Speaker
there to you, I want to say, celebration of Sonic. Maybe it was a year after where they got a very prominent YouTuber Nate wants to battle, who does a lot of... He used to do a lot of covers, I don't know if he shifted more. He still does his covers, don't worry. Oh, does he? Right. Yeah, he still does his covers, don't worry. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if he shifted more into his original stuff, about like Jonathan Young. I know he does that as well. i Love Jonathan Yeun. Kale Piles has got some bangers too. Oh, Kale Piles. Oh, so damn good. Love them all. But here you've got them. You've got, I think it's Amy Jones. She does some amazing covers. Yes. She also did the theme for Sonic R. imourba sona gray and
01:10:48
Speaker
Oh of course, on the car. We have to shout outs on the car. Listen, I don't care what anybody says, can you feel the sunshine? Still a daily play for me. Oh yeah, I was playing that the other day. Again, in the car, much to my partner's disappointment. Tails don't curse, be damned. That was it. Why with me, with Amy Jones and Tony Harnell? Fantastic. I want to give a shout out as well to Jonny Gioli, who is again the other half to June Tsunoi's. Crush 40. He's crush 20, you know. Yeah, crush 20. Crush 2020. Absolutely love that. I know he's not a fan. He's an official singer of Sonic. I just wanted to point out because I wouldn't have another chance to say it, but absolutely amazing.
01:11:28
Speaker
who appreciate sonic music and all the people who created the sonic music and that goes for all of the guest singers as well so like our hall lead singer for owl city who did reach for the stars the bowling for soup guy i forgot his name already even though i just googled him i'm terrible for that crush forty of course now keen quinn has joined the ranks as well all of these fantastic artists who've given us this music. And Otani, our new director for music for Sonic Team as well, has just absolutely been killing it. So we wouldn't have a topic to talk about today without these people. Not to mention, of course, T-Lopes, who that i think did… did he not do a lot of the Sonic Mania stuff? You know, that's and that's a little bit outside of my wheelhouse because I didn't play Sonic Mania either, because like I said, I'm not really one for like the classic side-scroller kind of things. I am such a nerd, I apologise. No, don't apologise if anything, I'm learning. Because I know he did the Studioopolis one, and the only reason I know he did the Studioopolis is because I listened to that on my playlist.
01:12:22
Speaker
You know the one that goes... through the the little la do do do da do did did do do do do you Amazing copyright-free music there. One other person that I want to touch on, and again it's more a fan who was singing it, is someone called Ty McGrath. Have you heard of this person? I have not, no. So he does a lot of covers for Sonic songs. He's done ones like What Would That Anime Intro Sound Like for Sonic Frontiers? Wait, no, I do know this guy! Yeah, he's done covers of Endless Possibility. He's even done a really good reach for the stars. Yes! Usually, as I said, usually that is not really my thing, but his version is just absolutely fantastic. All of his covers and things are just brilliant because he kind of combines his own, well, he combines the English lyrics with Japanese ones here. then sometimes he'll like blend two songs together. yeah And it's so cool! It's so creative! Oh, it
Sonic Community's Creativity and Legacy
01:13:22
Speaker
really is. And that's my point, I suppose, is a final closing point. The the amount of fans and creativity that this has fostered, especially within the community, is just brilliant. It is. I feel as if the games even die off, or God forbid that they stop making them one day. The music will never die for these games. I because the amount of talent that has been poured in. And again, you saw before in previous generations, you had Michael Jackson, Econ, you've had that all of these very famous artists on their own rights get involved in this series. And it just shows how prevalent, even if you don't like the game, you will love the music. And I just think that's absolutely amazing. Yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible the reach that it has. So
Notable Themes in Sonic Unleashed
01:14:06
Speaker
is there any final points that you want to bring up? No, I think I'm actually quite happy with that because we got our honorable and dishonorable mentions and everything like that and I feel like that I have had my opportunity to yap into the wind about the complexities and everything like that and I could keep I honestly I could keep going but I already feel bad for you when it comes to editing this one because it's the longest one of the way of no it on Yeah, yeah, we do be out here just absolutely yammering on why does this keep happening to us?
01:14:36
Speaker
Why are we still here, Moth? But as always, it is such a pleasure having you on. Thank you so, so much for joining me, talking about a topic that we are both very passionate about and really in the future we could definitely split this up into smaller episodes as a whole. but Absolutely. Because like I said, I could go on for hours about how the transition from the retro style going into the glory days of adventure and then going further into introducing motifs and character motifs. Because we didn't even touch on about the fact that in Sonic Unleashed, because we spent so much time talking about Unleashed, we didn't even talk about the fact that Eggman got a theme that that has carried over through multiple games after that. And that was the first time that happened. Like what?
01:15:23
Speaker
I mean, not to mention, of course, the themes for all the different locations. Because whether you hate them or love them, I have to admit Spagonia Day slash Night and Chinan Day and Night, they are on my playlist. It's like Urban It features because they are just so soothing and just absolutely fantastic. Again, the composing for that game as a whole, although I'm not unleashed's biggest fan, I'm going to be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of the game, but I will admit, the one thing I will completely concede to is the fact that the soundtrack is a thing of beauty. And I absolutely
Wisteria Moth's Social Media Engagement
01:15:58
Speaker
love it. But thank you once again, Moth, for joining me in this amazing discussion. But before we leave off, where can these lovely listeners at home find your content? Well, I am most at home on The Purple Place, so I like to go on Twitch. I stream three times a week. If you want more information about that, you can find me. I have a whole Discord community. You're welcome to join as well. And I'm also active on Twitter, but I post some pretty cringe stuff on Twitter main. So if you want some free entertainment in that regard, please feel free to come give me a follow. All of them are wisteria moth as it's spelled in the title. So nothing special, nothing super complicated. I'd be so happy to see you guys. And yeah, if you want to check out more episodes from ourselves, because let's face it, we have a laugh here, don't we? Well, listen, we do be yapping and we do be wheezing. We do. That is very true. But yeah, if
Chatsunami Podcast Promotion
01:16:46
Speaker
you want to catch more episodes from ourselves, you can of course check us out at Chatsunami.com, as well as all good podcast providers. I also want to thank my amazing Pandora Impatrons, RoboticBattleToaster and Sonya. Thank you so, so much as always for supporting the show.
01:17:00
Speaker
And if YouTube would like to become a Pandora patron and get a exclusive content to early access episodes, special exclusive episodes, and even some cheeky Twitch votes, then you can check us out at patreon dot.com forward slash Chatsanami. I also want to point out that this podcast is part of the Podpack Collective. For more information about the amazing podcast involved, check us out at our ex slash Twitter handle, Podpack Collective. Until next time, stay safe, stay awesome, stay hydrated and most importantly, live and learn.