Transcript
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hello, and on this episode of Book Watch, we are watching The Hunger Games, The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes by Suzanne Collins. This was published in 2020, and its adaptation was in 2023, directed by Francis Lawrence.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: This was adapted by Michael Leslie and Michael Arndt. The audiobook is narrated by Santino Fontana. I'm Sarah Day.
Chris: And I'm Chris.
Jordyn: And I'm Jordan.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And we will get started after these messages.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. Oh, wait, first. We have to introduce our guest.
Chris: Don't forget.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm so sorry. um Everybody, our returning Hunger Games guest, J. Scottie St. Clair is with us once again.
Scotty: Yes, good to be back. Thank you for having me once again. you know. Snow lands on top. But what they forget to tell you is snow also melts very easily. It also has this... ah ability to to take on the color of whatever it's it's very easily influenced by other colors and whatnot so yeah there's a lot of negatives you can say about snow too
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Ugh. ah
Jordyn: Absolutely.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Very infinitely influenced, yes.
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: uh we'll get into that i'm sure as the conversation continues um especially since I do think there's a lot of grooming in this book that I didn't realize in the first.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: run through um that i I think we'll talk about.
Scotty: e
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um But yes, The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes is a prequel to Suzanne Collins' original Hunger Games trilogy. This was published in 2020. and is set 64 years before Katniss Everdeen's story.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The novel follows 18 -year -old Coriolanus Snow as he mentors Lucy Gray Baird, a tribute from District 12. during the 10th Hunger Games.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: This story explores early development of the Hunger Games and the events. that began shaping snow into the villain we know him from in the trilogy. The book is... divided into three parts. And in this episode, we're going to be covering parts one and two of the book and the movie. And in our next episode, we'll be covering part three.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um... We've talked a lot in our past episodes about the cultural impact of the Hunger Games series itself, especially the trilogy. um We've got sunrise coming out in November. Is there anything else you guys want to talk about?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: as far as the cultural impact of the story. um or like the ballot itself. I know there was a lot of controversy about. The fact that this was going to be about... Snow and his backstory.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But what do you guys kind of remember? from six years ago.
Jordyn: I think most of what I was hearing was people. concerned that this would be like romanticizing snow or like justifying the hunger games or justifying his actions his behavior And so I think it's really a testament to Suzanne Collins that that didn't happen at all.
Jordyn: Like there's there's no point upon reading this or even watching it that I'm like, well, maybe he's a good guy after all. Like any time you even get close to thinking that he has some humanity, he does or says or thinks in the book, especially.
Jordyn: something that you're like, oh, no.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: You're still that same guy. You're still president snow who. you know, and the this whole book is so much of what we see in the future, the 74th, 75th Hunger Games.
Jordyn: starts here and it and not just starts here but like they're actually his ideas like And his ah the his grandmother, makes some comment about...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: the people in the districts you know If it rained blood, they would drink that. It's like, oh, where have I seen blood rain before? you know like There's so much that sets the foundation for stuff that we see later.
Jordyn: and explains how we got there and why president snow is the way that he is in the original hunger games books without turning him into some sort of like understandable or relatable, like anti -hero type person.
Jordyn: Um, which, and so that was most of the like. concern or controversy was like there was the girls who were like oh my gosh like president snow's low -key hot and stuff it's like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: okay
Jordyn: No, like that's a nice.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I have some comments on that
Jordyn: That's a nice, it's a really nice veneer for like a super evil dude. And so like we we should not. be romanticizing. evil people and so i think like Suzanne Collins did a great job of. making sure you still know exactly who you're dealing with the whole time even if they cast an attractive actor to play him in the movie.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. and So the first time I read through this, I did not like it. And I. never read read it again. This is the second time I've read this book. And it's so funny to me because I liked it a lot more.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And I found myself really into the romance portion of the story. And then I had to check myself and be like, oh, this is President Snow. And. Back when I first read it, we didn't have the movie.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Tom Blythe was not snow. You know what I mean?
Jordyn: Mm -hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um and there's like I just kept finding myself especially. when he goes to 12, so excited for their first reunion. And then I, again, had to remind myself.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: No. Like, A, I know what happens and B. I don't want to be excited for this man. And like you said, he would make comments like he owned her and stuff like that.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and Again, like she did a really good job just to reiterate what you said about keeping. the readers and check that this is not a romance story.
Chris: And I think that. you know we we all thought the hunger games was done before this came out and so when uh when she announced this uh book and movie at the same time i was really put off by that i was like wait You basically are writing a movie and putting out a book at the same time. and Um, that That threw me off a little bit that we were. doing the whole straight to straight into production thing.
Chris: um And, you know, I read it when it came out and I hadn't watched the film until more recently. Like literally like. a couple days ago was the first time i've watched it i read i've read the book twice and i thought the book was good um i really did enjoy i like seeing the backstory of characters that uh um have all sorts of whether they're the good guy or the bad guy everybody has a story so I like getting to dig into that sort of thing.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Chris: So I didn't hate it once I actually read it. And I saw a lot of those. callbacks to the future like you know the the uh Um, the hints of what's to come. um and i really liked seeing all that and so i uh yeah and doing my you know little search like okay This seems like this character must be related to Katniss or, you know, some in some way, shape or form and seeing the the inheritance of all that.
Chris: Now, I like the next one that's coming out, Songbird. Uh, No, the... um the
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Sunrise on the reaping.
Chris: sunrise on the reaping better it's a much much more interesting story but this was a very cool way to get back into okay there's more of this coming we're you know we're we're in this world still there's a lot more story to be told here it definitely gave me more excitement for what's to come in this world
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Oh yeah.
Scotty: yeah I appreciate the perspectives and the insights from you all. is like you know people that have your finger on the pulse with this franchise maybe a little more closely than I do because we're kind of at the point in the franchise now where I'm not. as exposed as I was with the first three. books and and movies like this is my first time reading this book um And.
Scotty: i didn't really know that the book was happening until i saw the first trailer for the movie so um i've seen the the movie twice now and i've only read the book the one time but I do agree. and um So I can't speak with like a lot of experience or eloquence about like what I thought the cultural impact was. like so You said the book came out. six years ago wasn't really on my periphery or my radar but i do remember when the the trailer came out and i remember seeing the movie in the theater the first time
Scotty: ah But some of the thoughts I had while reading the book that... um kind of dawned on me. was that um I think... this this may not have been the intention when it was written but you know now being in 2026 we're here in the united states and i don't want to make this super political but like you know The political divide is kind of at the height. that.
Scotty: highest that it's ever been at and i just kind of i did think like much like um everybody's kind of referenced here it's not about like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Scotty: Making this villainous character relatable or empathetic or anything like that But I did get kind of seeds of like oh I get the intention here for me is like what does it look like for? Someone that's had the seat of power and when they have the fear of losing that power what that can do to them and how how they cling to that power and how that makes them treat other people that was definitely a thought i had and then um the other thought i had was like wow this really just kind of feels like post -world war one germany to me where it's like.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: ah
Scotty: uh like how does a nation get into this mindset where they will allow someone to rise to power like this or like let something as atrocious as the hunger games you know obviously the holocaust was a real world thing that's so so much worse but i just those were threads that i was kind of you know glomming onto a little bit and and maybe Maybe I'm a alone on that, but I think it's there.
Jordyn: No.
Chris: It's there.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's definitely there.
Jordyn: It's definitely there. i think to I didn't... Pay too close attention. but like just thinking back on it now she Before you even start the book, there's a ton of quotes from like political philosophers like John Locke and like other people of that.
Scotty: Oh sure.
Jordyn: kind of nature and like that really sets the tone for like This is what you're supposed to be paying attention to in this story. Don't get distracted by the potential romance. Don't get distracted by, you know, like, oh, this poor kid who grew up in a war zone in the poverty. like These are the real world things that these real, you know. thinkers who helped shape our society this is what they're talking about this is my like version of explaining these things to a wider audience um
Jordyn: And so just like making.
Scotty: you
Jordyn: that those kind of concepts like you said like the political divide i feel like there is a time in this country where we've been more political divided we literally like fought a war about it and stuff so
Scotty: ah that's That's fair. That's fair.
Jordyn: like and But to your point, though, like... things are very divided like i'm Yeah. No shade. I'm the youngest person here. I don't remember like growing up. I feel like we were all a lot more.
Jordyn: more centrist and a lot more like willing to talk and a lot more understanding of each other. And now it feels like if you, if you disagree with me, we're not speaking anymore. I'm disowning you. I'm cutting you out of my life, like all of these things. And so like, I think where we are.
Jordyn: In real life. you know. I think this is another one of those ones like up with 1984 and Brave New World were like if we're not careful, we could end up as divided as the capital and the districts are and seeing each other as.
Jordyn: things other than human and less than or, you know, and like just you're inherently evil because of where you're born where you come from instead of seeing the humanity in each other so I think you know Suzanne Collins is but and through the original Hunger Games too like that's her her warning is like we have to continue to find the humanity in each other Katniss focuses on that a lot this book warns us like we have to
Jordyn: We have to stay united. We are the United States of America. We have to stay united so we don't end up like Panem.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And. um I think ultimately... Going back to. The. you know, public opinion of this. um Let me get my um numbers here.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Or maybe, yes, okay. um The film is 89 % verified audience score on Rotten Tomatoes, and it grossed more than 361 million worldwide. So I think ultimately.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: this installment of the hunger game series proved that the audiences were still invested in the hamburger games obviously it's still relevant the themes and messages that she's trying to con convey Um, Even when we move away from Katniss' story, there's still so much.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: world to explore. And again, that's why we're getting yet another book and film. well The book is out and the film is coming out. so um obviously this is still a very popular series and she has been known to say um She's not going to write a book unless she has something to say. So...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Going back to what J. Scottie said, it is very. politically divided so she might have a lot to say in the next few years um but time will tell
Scotty: Sure.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um But going back to like what we're here today to discuss the adaptation of the book, what were our initial. um impressions of this film.
Scotty: of yeah well i can kick things off for this one yeah i just i remember taking myself back to november 2024 and going to see this film on a relative whim i'd seen the trailers liked what i'd seen remember that i liked you know, the other movies in the franchise well enough particularly that first one which I've uh Glowed about quite a bit uh and I remember being pretty surprised um to your point with the numbers and the performance that it did.
Scotty: I remember being. pretty surprised how full the theater was. And there were definitely a lot of young people. I felt a little out of place. I was like, I'm obviously not the core target audience here.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: ah
Scotty: but I still had a really good time with it. And I think. I kind of alluded to this um when we talked about. The Mockingjay. Wow. you know recently revisiting this, when I saw it the first time, I just came out really glowing. I thought it was really, really well done.
Scotty: Um, obviously did not have the book to compare it to but i i've been on record and maybe i'll walk some of these comments back a little bit but i often compare it to star wars and the prequel trilogy was with star wars because what they were trying to do they they were basically trying to take a young innocent kid and turn him into space hitler by the end of the of the trilogy. And I would argue in one film, a two hour 37 film. 37 minute film here They do that pretty effectively as he.
Scotty: as innocent and and golden as anakin was in in episode one no but you do have that opening sequence where you get to see you know the things that scarred him in terms of like and that's something i also want to highlight too not to go on too much of a tangent here but just the title of the hunger games i feel like This. book and film kind of brought it back to that for me like why are they called the hunger games because hunger is such a strong theme whether you're in the districts or whether you're in the in the capital it's all about there There is hunger. There is lack.
Scotty: um there's excess in certain places but at this point in time it seems like there's just hunger everywhere you have exchanges between a couple of characters like i thought There was a lot of food and in the in the capital. but But no.
Scotty: um
Chris: so the So the disruption of the trade routes, you mean?
Scotty: So.
Scotty: Exactly.
Chris: No worries.
Scotty: Exactly. that's right That's right. Thanks for bringing it back. Thanks for bringing it back. ah But... Yeah. um I just thought it was really, really well done. And again, to compare it to the... the mocking jay again the fact that they broke that film into two parts.
Scotty: um I do think this film is a little bloated, loses little things, has to cut some things in order to. to do it all in one film but i think it is the right choice to do it in one bigger, more epic and ambitious film.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I... Might disagree with you because as I was watching the movie.
Scotty: Okay.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um, And I think it's more evident in... part three um and i was really excited to get into part three because i think the meat of the story is what happens there and i think that's where his turn really starts to you know like the snowball um no pun intended really starts to roll um and i was really bummed about like how quick
Scotty: Mmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: We went through part three. um and we'll talk about it more later but i as i was watching the movie i was like i really wish this was split into two films whereas parts one and two were the first film and then um the second film would have covered part three in his. his time in District 12. I mean, the Covey was completely cut from the film. We didn't get to know any of them.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and i'm getting too far ahead of myself we'll talk about it soon um but yeah I was really bummed to see.
Scotty: True.
Chris: Yeah, that was there.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um that part get So watered down. in the film.
Jordyn: I agree. i think like reading it and then watching it back to back, it felt. very rushed compared to the book and like it became yeah, maybe the book could have been shortened. You could have cut out some things here and there, but the movie felt rushed to me. Like, I don't think there was enough time.
Jordyn: for him and like lucy gray to like get to know each other the way and develop the intimacy that they did where he is you know knowingly breaking the rules and putting his life and career and his but you know political and social standing on the line for her.
Jordyn: I don't think that makes a lot of sense. given the timeline that the movie gives us, it makes a lot more sense when they have more time to interact with each other like they do in the book. um and therefore like you know everything that happens in part three I'm like
Jordyn: you barely know this girl dude like you haven't spent that much time with her like you haven't built that much of a connection or with her like why are you risking so much to be with her versus in the book because it's more drawn out it makes more sense to me how he could get to that point especially like his
Jordyn: manic mind and how he spirals. into like his true darkness like he starts it's that slippery slope thing right he like he's slowly spiraling throughout and then he really gets really crazy really fast at the end But like.
Jordyn: i feel like there wasn't enough of that slow spiral in the beginning of the movie so Yeah, like... one One big movie, like... was ambitious and it like it was a good movie but i feel like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: I feel like two shorter movies would have been the move here.
Chris: So you get to the point where he finishes the Hunger Games and gets sent to 12 and that's where you end. Um,
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: part one movie or whatever and then
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Chris: You have his basically downfall rise back to power in the.
Jordyn: Yeah
Chris: second movie.
Jordyn: because
Chris: and him falling in love more so and having to betray that in the end.
Jordyn: Yes. Because even his time in District 12 is like...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, I think.
Jordyn: at least like three or four weeks because he can only see her on the weekends so it's several weeks maybe even like up to two months that he's there learning and observing and like doing these getting to know her more building that relationship more versus in the movie it
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: i i don't correct me if i'm wrong but it feels like a matter of days
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: It's like, this is all happening very, very quickly.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I have a lot, a lot, a lot of thoughts when we get to part three of things that were shifted and cut. And and I mean, Dr. K. all right The whole Segenus thing was... very rushed, but Like I said we'll get into that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um but i really do i think like a cliffhanger of him being found out the cheating and saying you're going to district um you're like you have to be a peacekeeper um and then i think would be a good cliffhanger for movie one and then movie two could pick up with him saying actually i want to like i want to go to 12 please send me to 12 and then we get Sorry.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Then we get. all of that stuff that happened in District 12. But. I enjoyed the movie. I think the acting was good, but yeah, I think rushed. And I think we always use the word rush when we talk about a film adaptation because there is just so much.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: cut from a book to make a film.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: go through a few of our key characters in part one and two and then we can talk about the plot points. I'm just going to run through the list of characters and actors.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um And then you guys can give your thoughts on these performances before we dive into the plot. points. Of course, starting with Coriolanus Snow, he is played by Tom Blythe.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: who we as Bookwatch saw in People We Meet. On vacation. which is episodes 26 and 27, if anybody wants to go back. Lucy Gray is played by Rachel Zegler.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Sejanus is played by Josh Rivera. Tigress is played by Hunter Schaefer. Dean Highbottom is played by Peter Dinklage and Dr. Gall is played by Viola Davis, who.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I just want to say I think it's the best performance out of all of them because you Totally forget. That she's Viola Davis, like with the hair and the eyeball, it's. Quite the costume.
Chris: So Tigress, is that the same gal who helps them later in the Mockingjay? I feel like it should have been, but they I don't think they ever allude to it.
Scotty: Supposed to be the same character.
Chris: So I really thought that was interesting that she was Snow's cousin, we find out here, and had spent so much time.
Scotty: Pretty sure, yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Cause I'm yeah.
Chris: with him and yet still betrays him to help them in the Mockingjay story.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: well look what he did to her you know like he completely cast her aside
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: True.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Once. She was not pretty enough, as she says.
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um After everything that you see.
Chris: right
Sarah-Daye McDougall: her do for him in this
Chris: Hard to do for him. yeah
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: I like the groundwork that they set with her where she's kind of the one like. You don't want to be like your dad. Like, you know, she's the one saying like, hey, you're getting a little crazy. You're getting a little radical over here, dude.
Jordyn: Like you got to pull it back. You know, let's be let's be normal. Like Lucy Gray is a human and the people in the districts are human beings. Like she's the voice of moderation.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: here
Jordyn: in his life. um and so like in that Setting that groundwork here in the prequel makes her actions in Mockingjay make more sense, especially you know if you're going to say that she's related to him, you're like, how did she learn to but how did she come to betray him?
Jordyn: like Well, because she watched him get radicalized in real time.
Chris: grow into this, yeah.
Jordyn: and grow into it. And it scared her. And so she's like, I don't support this.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: any
Jordyn: I can't, I can't, you know, back you up with everything that you're doing. So if I have the opportunity. you know she and she never like goes out of her way to help the rebel cause that we see at least. But if the opportunity presents itself for her to help them, you know, take her cousin out of power, she takes that opportunity.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: we've had discussions the four of us and the fandom about what what we think the third prequel. would be about like whose story it would be um and i know um heavensby is a popular choice um and finnick is another popular choice but Do you think Tigress would be a good one to see? like come Like.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Go back to the beginning right like we've um Bookend. Snows.
Jordyn: Hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: rise to power with his perspective. and now like go back and see because she was a um like a designer in the games i think for a few years and like does she know have Like, does she have a relationship with Plutarch?
Chris: Right.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Scotty: I believe that's right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: How does she know? um the the director of the movies in the third book.
Chris: arrivals no
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I can't remember her name. um
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I can't remember the actress either, but anyway, like how does she get there?
Chris: um I think that you tell a story with one of the others. I think you tell one of the other Hunger Games stories with where she is a part of it. You give her, you know, you let show her design as a designer, you show her getting into that world.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. Right.
Chris: and ultimately but i think this story has to be you know phoenix or whoever you know whoever is the person she's helping through the games or being the designer for through the games to tell her story alongside because i don't think she has enough story to build on herself.
Scotty: That'd be cool.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah. Well, and because just the theme of these two books is they both have. like they're both in the hunger games like hey mitch is in his games and even like even though it's not Lucy Gray's perspective. like Coriolanus is he literally is in the arena multiple times like he's in the games with her you know like
Chris: It felt like he was the one in the games and that he won the games.
Scotty: Sure.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Jordyn: he he wasn't ah a tribute in the games but he was in the games with her um in a lot of ways and so i think like you still need to have somebody who's like actively in the games as the main protagonist but yeah i like what chris was saying how like if you
Sarah-Daye McDougall: You as a mentor, yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: have it where whoever the main protagonist is has tigris as their designer and then you have plutarch you know in here somewhere and then you can kind of see the threads being woven of that's when they meet and they start getting to talking and like this is a little crazy like stuff like that you know it's kind of lay that again like laying that groundwork and like getting things
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: you know, explained without fully explaining them. Like, i I think that would be. the best choice but i would love to see her back and like get more you know watching her trajectory as her cousin is going way over here into crazy town and radicalism.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: How is she staying?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. And how does she become?
Jordyn: moderate or getting to rebel.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: all those alterations like does she really want those is that snow kind of like pushing her to those alterations
Scotty: Yeah, I could see a really compelling story as like her cousin is. you know. navigating the political ladder and she's kind of being left in the dust like oh what do i need to do to stand out to have my own limelight and maybe she does that by you know increasingly bizarre body modification until it becomes
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: you know, lambasted and becomes the source of her.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: um becoming a pariah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Downfall.
Chris: But you could also...
Scotty: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah, or she's...
Chris: You could also have the story of her burying the grandma and Coriolanus ignoring it, basically, and saying it doesn't matter to me anymore.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Scotty: Oh sure.
Chris: and you You have her humanity still shown, whereas he's gone away from humanity.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm
Jordyn: Well, they made a comment about her liking her meat raw in this book, like they're like they're cooking something with burgers or whatever, and she's like nibbling the raw meat.
Scotty: Absolutely.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Guess.
Scotty: Oh yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Jordyn: And so you already have that groundwork of her like leaning into that feline -ness, but then. i think if the body changes come from her wanting to distance herself from snow because like they look similar like they're they are blood related, their family.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Jordyn: And so, you know, how I want to distance myself from him. I don't want to share his name. i don't want to be associated with him at all i need to change myself and kind of go into hiding and like
Scotty: oh yeah
Jordyn: cut off the connection you know visually So if I'm going to do that, my name is Tigress. I like my meat rot. Let's just lean into the cat thing and go that direction with it.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Chris: a sixty She maintains her humanity by leaving humanity.
Jordyn: but i
Jordyn: Yeah, like, you know. Because he he might look like a human, but he's so inhuman in the things that he does and the things that he thinks.
Scotty: You got to do what you got to do.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Chris: What a monster.
Jordyn: He's he's the real monster. And so having that, you know. that dichotomy of the normal attractive young man who is secretly a monster and the girl who looks like a monster actually being the one with her humanity intact, like that's a really great dichotomy.
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Well I've convinced myself that this is the one I want moving forward.
Scotty: Alright.
Chris: There we go.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It sounds really cool.
Scotty: Oh.
Chris: Um,
Scotty: Before we move on from
Chris: Rachel Zegler.
Scotty: Okay.
Chris: and Go ahead. No.
Scotty: Well, I was just going to say, before we move on from key characters, I do want to touch on Highbottom and Sejanus. I feel like I kind of have to back up what I was saying initially because I feel like there were some good takedowns of this film and how it is a little bit rushed. But I do want to defend myself a little bit like that first viewing why I liked it so much. And I do think it is. the casting.
Scotty: and the performances, particularly are our two leads.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm.
Scotty: tom blythe and rachel zegler i think they're you know and And we can talk about the differences. between the book and the movie. That's the whole point of this this podcast, right? But I really felt like the film Did.
Scotty: uh for better and worse a better job of kind of leaning into the romantic angle of their relationship and I think that's just a byproduct of the on -screen chemistry. and performances there were in the book there was a little bit more of like okay this is a mutually beneficial relationship for both of them they're both kind of using each other a little bit more where it It felt a little more aw shucks -y.
Scotty: to me in the film and i i do think that's you know just again, a byproduct of ah of the performances.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um I do want to ask you guys. Your opinion. um Do we think? That snow. actually loved her? Or was he just infatuated with her?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And. needed her. as much as she needed him.
Jordyn: I think. for Everything is about... control with him.
Scotty: Mm.
Jordyn: And so she is a thing for him to possess. And we like you see that, especially in the book, his like internal monologue. She's mine. That's my girl.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep.
Jordyn: She's my Lucy Gray, my this.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay. huh
Jordyn: like He's very possessive, very controlling of her. He gets jealous very easily. These are all like... classic you know abuser signs you know in a relationship I think she I think they trauma bonded ultimately.
Jordyn: Like I think even her, you know, love for him.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: is mostly just because she was literally about to die and he was the only person being kind to her and taking care of her. And he has his, you know, again, his social standing on the line, his future career on the line. And she is, you know.
Jordyn: working for him you know doing a service for him and winning to get him ahead and so i think you know But they're also teenagers. And he, you know, in the book, he says like he's never really been interested in other girls before. um So I think this was like very much like a.
Jordyn: a puppy crush like first time and but she says she's had a boyfriend before she was with billy tote back in 12.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: So I think. on her part it might have been more genuine but for him it was always control and what can I get out of her and he feels guilty about that at some points but his like nature wins wins out and I think it was
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Well, I have a follow up.
Jordyn: yeah I don't think it was genuine.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Do you think he... believed he was in love with her because at one point at the end he's like i'm never gonna fall in love again because it makes me not think straight But like we seeing his thoughts. I think he wasn't in love. Like you said, he was very much in control, like wanted to control her. But do you think he thought he was in love with her?
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: I think at the point when they were. running away and he thought all of his ah options were gone i think he could have loved her i think he wanted to love her i think he wanted that to be his future but when the opening came for him to get his power back
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm.
Chris: to get back to who he wants to be. and who he feels his family needs him to be, I think that's where I think it was the edge of. I could fall for this girl and run this way. Or now my life can go back to.
Chris: the high standing and the freedom that I... I want that my family to have.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Chris: and the power that he wants to possess.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: So I think there was a line there that...
Jordyn: I think he...
Chris: He rode throughout the film.
Jordyn: Yeah, I think he felt he feels entitled to his position in society.
Scotty: oh yeah
Jordyn: And so when everything goes against him, it's like, well, okay, fine.
Scotty: Oh yeah.
Jordyn: I'll run away in the woods with, with, with her and you know, who cares? And it's whatever. But then like you said, Chris, as soon as he has the opportunity to claim what he believes he's entitled to and get back to where he.
Jordyn: belongs where he wants to be is like yeah Hey, I'll shoot you in the woods. It's fine. It's not a problem. I'll get... I'll i'll go back to where i where I belong, where I'm supposed to be. so And then, yeah, Saturday, I...
Jordyn: I think he may have thought he loved her. Up until he saw... the guns in the in the shack by the lake.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: right
Jordyn: But. Even that I think was a very brief moment in time. Like you said, when he had no other options, there was nothing for him to live for. I think he deluded himself into thinking that he genuinely loved her for like. that day.
Jordyn: Because up until then, he's constantly debating, going back and forth. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Should I go with her? Should I stay? blaedda When he feels like he has no other options, then he's like, I really love her. I'm going to go with her. But then as soon as like you said, that option comes back, it's. we see like he never actually loved her so i think he deluded himself but like for a very temporary time
Sarah-Daye McDougall: i'll have a follow -up question when we get into part three but um any other well actually what do you guys think of tom's performance then do you think that he showed all those emotions and feelings.
Scotty: yeah I'm going to have to check out episodes 26 and 27 of this where you covered people we meet on vacation because I have not seen him in very many things. I actually can't think of a single thing I've seen him in.
Scotty: outside of this and Again, I was just super impressed with him, his range. I think he's a relatively, you know, good looking guy too. He's visually like interesting to look at with the piercing blue eyes and the angle.
Scotty: uh angular nature of his his face and whatnot so i've kind of been waiting for him to be given more opportunities. I think he was up for. um Clayface. um for like a second before they went with the the person that they went with and i'm still excited for that movie but i i thought that would have been really
Sarah-Daye McDougall: oh
Chris: e
Scotty: ah Really good for him.
Chris: Yeah, I...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm also excited to see where his career goes.
Chris: Yeah, I think he's got the, I think he did portray the emotions and the the conflicting. nature of the character there.
Jordyn: you
Chris: Um, So I agree. and And yeah, people meet me on a vacation was a really interesting. um different like the the romantic comedy element of his character and getting to play in that element.
Chris: And so we all really liked that one.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And a completely different character from Snow.
Chris: Yeah, very different
Scotty: Okay.
Chris: So it's an interesting way to see other parts of his his acting chops. So, yeah, I think he's great. I think I'm i'm excited to see where he goes from here, too.
Jordyn: I can't think of anybody that I think would have done a better. John?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: I just. There's so much you lose when you can't have the internal monologue of a character. And I feel it's it's really hard to display that.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: like back and forth what am I going to do like decision making Like... physically to and like visually other than like pacing and like looking around like i don't know and like like Without it being like.
Jordyn: comic -y which this is not a comedy film by any means so
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Chris: Though.
Jordyn: That being said, I think he did great.
Chris: Once he shaved his head, that was a little weird for me. I was like, am I looking at Pete Davidson? Am I looking at Eminem? Who is this? guy
Scotty: but
Jordyn: Both valid guesses.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: J. Scotty, you said you wanted to mention. um, High bottom. And just Shajinas as well.
Scotty: ah well Well, sure. um So Janus, it's a little tough because I know we're saving part three for, you know, the second part of this episode. Yeah, the second. episode of this series but i did find it just interesting i didn't have a ton of time to do a bunch of background research like i usually try to do but i did find it pretty interesting that josh rivera who plays uh so janice he appeared in Uh...
Scotty: West Side Story, Steven Spielberg's rendition of West Side Story alongside Rachel Zegler. So this was their second time appearing together and they were actually in a relationship up until I think like.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Oh.
Scotty: 2024, 2025.
Jordyn: OT.
Chris: interesting
Scotty: Um, What's that? The tea? Yeah, spilling the tea.
Jordyn: i I said, O -T?
Chris: Behind Snow's Back.
Scotty: here Yeah, but it's funny because the thing I could not shake every time I saw. ah josh rivera on screen is and i i didn't think it the first time i saw the film but i could not get away from it this time i was like he looks like a young vincent d 'onofrio Bye.
Jordyn: Hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: oh
Scotty: especially once he shaved his head, he looked like. Full Metal Jacket, Vincent D 'Onofrio. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, I can see that.
Scotty: But obviously great. at delivering the the heart that is so important.
Chris: And this was for Rachel Zegler right before she got Snow White, is or when she was doing in Snow White.
Scotty: to this story.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Oh, there's no white drama.
Chris: So i didn't I didn't realize it.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: yeah
Jordyn: And turn.
Scotty: Yeah, right
Chris: I didn't look it up beforehand to see that it was her acting in it. and i So I just i would enjoyed this. But yeah, I think the Snow White stuff definitely. Could have put a damper on this if it hadn't happened beforehand.
Scotty: Oh sure.
Chris: um
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Oh yeah.
Chris: And on the Peter Dinklage one, I think he did the part well. But I have a hard time thinking that. ah um A person, a little person would. ah succeed in the capital i feel like they're someone that would be ostracized as well And so seeing him in that role as a.
Chris: um a prominent figure in the capital was like hmm i'm not sure but i mean i think he's a great actor i think that he performed the acting well i just thought that that part i'm like i feel like this these people are also very shallow about any of that stuff too
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Well, I think the thing about the Capitol is it's not, they're not prejudiced. In our like normal sense of like. They... They're not racist. There's no. um you know, like homosexuality is not.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Look down upon. um I don't know if in the original trilogy. There's a same -sex couple, but... um in both um this ballad and sunrise i think there's a same -sex couple but they're prejudice comes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: to the districts.
Chris: Only the districts.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And so
Jordyn: It's class.
Chris: Okay.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I don't think a little person would be looked down upon because of that they're not quote normal um because they are capital they're still capital where but a little person in the districts
Chris: Okay. Yeah. I can see that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yes, they would.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: ostracize that person.
Jordyn: Yeah, I think.
Chris: I take it back then.
Scotty: yeah and
Jordyn: The capital has so much more to do with wealth and class and like your societal status that for them, like nothing else really.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: matters like if you have like that's why like Coriolanus is so you know snow lands on top it's all about the name you have to preserve the image of the name
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: m
Jordyn: And then anything else, like, doesn't matter.
Chris: End. Not to jump all the way to the end, but... ah the way he performed that last little bit of like you know when snow comes in and he tells him i tried to stop all this this was not of hunger games i did not want it to happen i was like okay that performance that got me I, uh...
Scotty: Yeah. Dinklage is good at playing a a shell of a man. he's He's got that gear.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: you
Chris: Yeah.
Scotty: He's got that gear.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: but that did bring to mind um changing gears a little bit but it's still related at the mention of peter dinklage as as high bottom and um Sarah Day, you cited Viola Davis as Gall as ga is kind of like the standout performer to you. I thought I had, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think compared to some of the other entries in this franchise, this book...
Scotty: you get some descriptions of like the physicality, but I think it was much more open to interpretation. So like, I didn't have like steadfast. you know interpretations of these characters, particularly with Gaul. like I mean, she's an old, eccentric, kind of mad scientist kind of character, but Viola Davis can step in and and fulfill that so well.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: And even with Casca Highbottom, I don't really feel like they ever talked about like his stature. It was just all about how... drunk and like withdrawn he had become so again i think um Peter Dinklage was kind of perfect for that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: huh
Scotty: but then
Chris: Mm hmm. huh
Scotty: The one that I do kind of push back, and i like I really like Rachel Zegler. I think her performance is great. Snow White. was not a good look for her or whatever, but she gets a lot of flack.
Scotty: And I generally like, I don't think she's that bad. I kind of like Rachel Zegler. I've seen her. I've liked her in more things than I have not liked her in.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: huh
Scotty: But I felt like... It was funny because i I saw the movie first, then read the book before I watched the movie again. And she was the one that was like. For whatever reason, I was envisioning her just a little bit.
Scotty: different.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: Um,
Chris: I could see that too, yeah.
Scotty: Just like. Like maybe a ah different kind of looking face. like Um,
Chris: Uh, to me gall was a little more um in the book she definitely is a lot more like actually unhinged and crazy like it felt like she definitely had a screw more loose than they did in the film she was much more the um the task master in the film versus the uh book she just seemed like she was all out crazy so
Sarah-Daye McDougall: said thank
Scotty: Oh sure.
Scotty: Yeah. For sure.
Chris: Wow. tick tock tick tock it felt very you know Like the characters that...
Scotty: What?
Chris: Yeah.
Scotty: but We also were like missing some core characters from the book, like Satyria. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but kind of, um, snow's like, you know, his teacher that's kind of watching out for him i feel like they kind of like took elements of her and and put that on Gaul.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: All right.
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah. Mhm.
Scotty: in terms of like making her his like mentor character.
Chris: Right.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: When I think that helps, I mentioned grooming earlier.
Jordyn: I think.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and Gaul is the one that I think is grooming Snow throughout this whole book um and combining that those two teachers, like the caring. and then like the manipulation of book goals character. um really highlights the grooming.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The movie. highlights the grooming. of Gaul's character. Um. a lot more than the books do, I think, because of that. combining those two characters.
Jordyn: I think. the movie cutting out.
Scotty: Agreed.
Jordyn: Moplins. is a loss.
Chris: That was definitely a...
Jordyn: Um, that's one of the biggest...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: A lot of that relationship.
Jordyn: That's one of the biggest reasons that I wish it had been two movies was so we could have had her more involved and like the way that.
Scotty: Hmm.
Jordyn: Again, showing Coriolanus' flip -flopping of like, oh, she's so backwards and she's so district, but also like... her food is sustaining him and Lucy Gray. Like that's how they're surviving right now. And you know, her kindness and how she loves Tigress and like. at the end of the book it explains how like they
Jordyn: move into the apartment they pay for the the snow's apartment penthouse they move into the apartment underneath and then she is coming up every single day to take care of grandmam while she's you know starting to go through like dementia you know kind of losing her marbles a little bit
Jordyn: So, and all the things that it does for Sejanis' character and his relationship with Coriolanus shaped by... you know ma and her involvement in in that like I would I think that's probably the biggest loss of a character that got cut because like you said you know we combined the other professor with Gaul and that you know that's fine but I think losing having to cut out the huge role that Ma Plinth play plays throughout this story.
Jordyn: was a big loss.
Scotty: Yeah, I think that's fair. There's there's definitely some other characters like... Hilarious heavens be. Didn't really need hilarious, heavens be.
Jordyn: Yeah. Yeah, the other the other kids and the other like tributes and them being just names that get shouted out like is is whatever like that's all fine But.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: The announcer being. So...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Flickerman.
Chris: Flickerman being... Is he, so I, as sorry. It appears he's Caesar's ah ancestor father and you do hear him talk in the movie at least about how he had reservations for his wife and him and his son So I was like, hey, there's Caesar probably.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Father.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm. Mhm.
Chris: And so that was an interesting like early. um rendition of what would become Caesar's talk show role later. That was fun.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: All right, we are 45 minutes into our recording. So let's um run through parts one and two. um And then we can talk about anything that we.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um want to dive into but
Chris: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Of course, we open up with the it's the 10th Hunger Games and they're trying this new thing where students. um of the academy are going to be mentors to the tributes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And Snow is assigned the girl from District 12, which he thinks is. a dig from High Bottom and we will find out more about that later on. um But he's already concerned about. his status and losing the status and then he's even more concerned because he's now basically given the worst tribute of the 24, right? um
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and But he decides to like own it. He goes to the train station, gives her the rose. They start forming their relationship. um He gets caught up in the zoo.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um there's lots of conversations about how they're treating the tributes in this zoo And. But he brings her food and then that's what kind of opens the door to this.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um spectacle of people looking at the tributes and giving them food but this also is what opens the door to one of the tributes killing one of his classmates because she was taunting her.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um, And then... Throughout the games, he is trying to keep Lucy. gray alive. but is also again being groomed by gall she's teaching Him. and giving him assignments um and that's where we get our our There was a group assignment.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I forget the student's name, but the one that dies at the zoo.
Scotty: Arachne.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Arachne. clemencia and snow were on a group project um clemencia was like i'm too distraught to write this paper now because she just died um But Snow writes it and turns it in.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And I think this is one of the major. changes that we get to from the book um to film. um Clemencia. actually takes ownership of it. Whereas in the book, They still had like equal parts. Like he filled her in on what he wrote, but she didn't try to take all of the credit like she did in the film.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um And.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Gal had both of them stick their hands in the snake pit. But of course, because he is the one that wrote the paper, they only recognized his scent. um And then all of the changing into a snake and not seeing her in the hospital, that was all kind of cut from the film.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um,
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And, then you know, that was a very traumatic experience for her. And like after that, her character in the movie just kind of.
Chris: Kind of disappears, yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: She just never comes back, yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um... bigger, much bigger character.
Scotty: I think we might. Be led to lead. led to believe that she dies.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I don't even remember seeing her.
Scotty: because she doesn't she also falls back and like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: yeah
Scotty: lands onto onto that hard floor.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: On the floor. Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um But in the... Book, are they the last two?
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: Oh, yeah, yeah she lives in she lives in the book, yeah.
Jordyn: In the book, she...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So.
Jordyn: Sure. She comes back and in her and Coralina's fight.
Scotty: and For sure.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But yeah, but she's that. So I don't even think they realize like.
Jordyn: like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: acknowledge.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The final two in the movie, right?
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay, so.
Scotty: No.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um There's some other... ah Dr. Gall. has a you know, a lot more conversations with him in the book. um But because of that experience, he's ever able to save Lucy Gray later on by sticking that handkerchief in the snake.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Pit. um But before we get there. They enter the arena. The mentors are with them. There's the bombing of the arena and Lucy Gray saves Snow.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um from something that had fallen on him. And that is when Marcus runs away. um which leads... um so gina is breaking into the arena later on because they have strung marcus up um And.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um He goes to lay. flowers, pebbles. crumbs.
Jordyn: Red.
Scotty: breadcrumbs
Sarah-Daye McDougall: breadcrumbs on on his body um and they send snow in there to get him out of there and that's when snow kills his first person bobbin
Jordyn: breadcrumbs
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um Which... is probably... um the start of his internal change um And like hit the. questioning of the guilt of that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um Lots more death in the games. And then... um the whole snake thing lots of changes there as well with her singing and the um She uses the snakes to kill somebody in the book.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: um But she ends up winning the games. Therefore, Snow wins the games. However... Dean Highbottom. confronts him with the three objects in the book. There's three in the movie. I think there's only two. um And basically says you got to go be a peacekeeper. now.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um, And so he feels like he has lost. and He does request to go to 12th. And that's when we'll end. the plot. for this episode.
Chris: The biggest thing that one of the earliest things I remember seeing in the book that they don't really talk about, but was impactful to me was that. The the snows were... heavily um involved in the war.
Chris: profiteering from 13's stuff. So the fact that 13 is gone and 13 becomes such a big part of the fight back against him is really interesting to me now.
Scotty: Right.
Chris: is because Literally. the people he used to finance and used to make money from are the ones that fight from him fight him for the um the throne later on in Mockingjay, basically, or trying to take the capital away from him.
Chris: Um, And so that was really interesting. And then, of course, the fact that the Plinths are the ones who basically swooped in and from two and replaced the Snows as that ah power in the war. you know the armor and and or the guns and you know weapons.
Scotty: munitions.
Chris: um And. And then try it. Yeah. has ah this whole relationship with them that uh um he doesn't like them but also kind of likes the kid he's trying to find that balance there and they even though they are the ones who...
Chris: Took their whole livelihood away basically so That was a big thing for me.
Scotty: Yeah. Another big change that's coming to mind and it's a it's a big change but it doesn't really have that much of an impact on the way that the story unfolds is in the book.
Scotty: Like. this mentorship thing is something that. uh, Corey Alanis has been looking forward to and really hoping that he'll have a ah shot at. Whereas in the movie, they're just like, oh, hey.
Chris: We've changed this, yeah.
Scotty: first day is hey guess guess what guess what we're doing this is this is your uh your final project this is what this is going to look like and then the plinth award being you know, a part of the proceedings from the get -go. Like this is the prize that you're going for rather than it being a byproduct of.
Scotty: uh so janice's parents having to you know buy him out of trouble again once he's infiltrated the arena. That's kind of like the bandaid that they they put on it.
Chris: And so... um that one i feel like there was something else that in this early part that stuck out to me but i don't remember it now but Definitely were a few big changes and a few really interesting things that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Chris: in the book that i felt like got left out but ultimately the movie did tell a pretty good story of this part the hunger games that it came together pretty well
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, and like... um jordan mentioned earlier just like their relationship um being able to spend more time. um you know um getting getting them to know each other a little bit more and forming that relationship um makes more sense in the book that they would.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: have fallen for each other.
Jordyn: Yeah, again, I just feel like everything was Rushed. and especially here like because I wanted to give I paused it when it started part three and there was still a whole hour left of the movie so they cut
Sarah-Daye McDougall: hu
Jordyn: two thirds of the book into, you know, two thirds of the movie. But. there's a lot that you have to cut. to get it down to that timeframe. So like, again, like the timeline of everything, like there's multiple meetings at the zoo, there's multiple meetings at the academy for them to talk and build their relationship. And you get to see the dynamic of her and the other tributes and him and the other mentors and all of these things. And it just is so, so.
Jordyn: rushed where things that Take. you know, again, weeks because of the bombing and this and that like all these things have to get stretched out it's Boink. days.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: And that just. is a disservice to, like we said, like them building their relationship between Lucy Gray and Coriolanus.
Scotty: Yeah, and I thought this part of the, it all is rushed. and truncated and compacted i'm not arguing that at all but i did think that this um in terms of the adaptation was... was pretty faithful. like visually um like the zoo cage and and everything like that the landscape the architecture the way things made sense in a 3d mapping space i was i was pretty pleased with that but i i will say like the the monkey cage
Scotty: um like the way it was described in the book like i it always felt pretty barren to me like whenever you had the shots of like Uh, Coriolanus right there at the at the fence line with Lucy In the book, I always felt like he was always like...
Scotty: like there were a lot more people crowding around at at various times and it just felt pretty barren
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Scotty: in this depiction. But the other thing is Arachne's death. Like it's just like a. it just happens and in the movie and it's not of all that much consequence really i mean her her
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: tribute gets shot on site and it's kind of a moment for Coriolanus but in the book like it's just it's again it's it showcases his ability like in the moment he's frozen with fear he gets a little bit of prodding from lucy to go like hey go help her and then he's able to turned it into this heroic moment for him where he's getting invited to sing the anthem at ah funerals and and and stuff like that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Chris: He looks like the hero, yeah.
Scotty: and Arachne. Uh, When I was reading the book, they describe her as like outspoken and brassy. And I was just – it kind of – I was imagining her as much more like a loud theater kid.
Scotty: that doesn't like know the volume of her own voice whereas i felt like they played her as a little bit more of like a valley girl
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm. mm -hmm
Scotty: uh in the movie which maybe maybe that's what suzanne collins was going for when she described her as brassy and it makes sense growing up in the capital to having that entitlement and that error about you that it may come across that way but uh I don't know. i
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I just think they focused on the fact that she was taunting the tribute.
Scotty: I.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And so they just made her kind of like a bitchy character in general.
Scotty: Yeah, yeah, for sure. right Right, right, right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah. why I think the...
Chris: and the taunting.
Jordyn: Good.
Chris: feels a lot like you know the way you might taunt ah an animal if you're at the zoo and you know you're you're the that jerk that's gonna taunt the monkeys and you know These monkeys fight back.
Scotty: Sure, sure
Sarah-Daye McDougall: huh
Jordyn: I was going to say, I think like. Losing the two funerals, like Arachne Crane's funeral, which Crane, Seneca Crane, haha.
Scotty: Oh, yeah.
Jordyn: um And ah the other two who who die in the bombing, like... That.
Scotty: The ring twins, right?
Jordyn: yeah yeah like those like that propaganda and like the way that the capital uses those deaths.
Chris: ends things.
Jordyn: for political gain to further their agenda. Like I think that. again, if you have to cut, you have to cut stuff, right? So I think those are perfectly fine things to be cut. But like, there's a reason that Suzanne Collins put those in the book, you know, like politicizing death. And, you know, Peace.
Jordyn: using peace um the death of somebody and that tragedy for that family. to your own advantage, like is a. really messed up thing. to do and something that we do all the time in real life and so i think like they're Like it's an important.
Jordyn: thing to like acknowledge but yeah you know like I said if you have to cut stuff Those are fine. things to cut I guess you know because you can't cut any more of the development between Coriolanus and Lucy Gray like there's already so much of his relationship with Sejanus that gets cut so like you know again when you have to make these choices you have to make the choices but I wish like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: they had had some acknowledgement or like said something about the funerals at least
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And there's a whole moment. In the book where. Somebody dies. At the hospital, but Gao doesn't. She waits. And Snow knows about it.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Um, That he's died, but she's waiting to announce it that's cut from the book, but she does make the announcement
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And it comes on the TV and that's when she's announcing that they're going to. something about a rainbow, but he realizes it's the snakes.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Whereas in the book, he's already there. and is overhearing that they're taking the snakes and that's when he stuffs the handkerchief in there um so again just kind of really combining and squishing that down into like one scene
Scotty: yeah
Scotty: And. um We haven't really talked about like. the games themselves. So I do feel like. Compared to... Well, I guess the the only other ones we can really compare it to because the Mockingjay didn't really have games in that sense, but Catching Fire, the games were pretty...
Scotty: Fast pace, I guess I would I would compare these most favorably to to the games that we saw in in Catching Fire in terms of like the amount of screen time that they occupied, how fast things moved.
Scotty: um but i did think that was kind of like an interesting um a little bit of antithesis i guess for lack of a better term because The intention in the book was to say, hey. if we want these hunger games to continue going we got to do something to spice them up like they're they're taking days and there's not a lot happening and that was just not conveyed when you see when you see the sequence um
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Scotty: and the and In the in the film, and maybe that's just a byproduct of like when you're describing things being drawn out versus like. hey the action the action beats are actually going down and we can't space them out this much but That was just a note that I had. But the other thing.
Scotty: was the character of Coral. All right. majorly beefed up in the film as as far as like being like this ringleader and that was one of the things that didn't really work for me i think in in all the games we've seen in terms of like these like bully kind of characters that that emerges kind of like the antagonist she was the least convincing
Scotty: from top to bottom i just didn't buy it for a second i was like i nothing about the physicality of this person the way she speaks she doesn't seem intimidating to me at all i do not believe that any of these other tributes would kowtow to her But whatever.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm with you on that I think.
Scotty: that's my That's my piece on on coral.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: I totally agree
Chris: the The arena was so small compared to what we're used to in these sprawling you know digital spaces, whereas this is just a little... Like. or literally like Coliseum Arena.
Chris: It's, you know, not.
Scotty: Yeah, yeah
Chris: it's not the same as what you would expect from
Sarah-Daye McDougall: well and the only reason why they have places to hide is because the bomb went off so that's not even something that they had before they literally were just in the
Chris: The later Hunger Games.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Chris: Right.
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Coliseum Arena.
Chris: in a football field or whatever yeah
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: Yeah. Well, I think like.
Scotty: Enjoy the show.
Jordyn: ah Everything kind it kind of has to go hand in hand.
Chris: Yeah.
Jordyn: Like if you want more people to watch, you have to make it more exciting. quote unquote, you know, murdering children being exciting is. horrendous but That being a given, you have to make it more exciting. You have to throw other elements in there to get people to be like, oh, what's going to happen next? I want to see this. You have to give hiding spaces. So there's like the element of like hunting people down. You have to expand the space so that they have room to hide and fight and maneuver. And so it's not just like.
Jordyn: a fishbowl. Killing field where there's literally no other option than to kill or be killed because there's nowhere to go like That. You know, the point if the point is to make things more exciting like this again, and we see it how this translates into the bigger arenas and, you know, they have the extra they throw the mutts in there and the weather can change and all these things to make it more.
Jordyn: challenging and more of like an adventure hunting type of vibe versus just a gladiator fight to the death.
Scotty: um just Check in the chat, make sure I didn't miss anything.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah. Is there any other final thoughts before we wrap up this first episode?
Jordyn: I think the first time I read the book. Coriolanus giving her the rat poison wasn't as obvious to me and like it's super obvious I just like didn't i like I think I read it too fast.
Chris: I think I missed it both times reading the book. Yeah. I think that I kept being like, wait, where'd she get that?
Jordyn: Yeah, it was.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I think I did too. Yeah.
Jordyn: It was his his idea. He gave it to her. um And so like, I think that. you know Again, adding another element to the arena where like you're just supposed to have.
Jordyn: you know, your own body and your hands. and you know some weapons, now we're introducing the idea of a poison or other things that you can use to get the killing done.
Chris: Or at least a trinket was kind of what I saw. I was like, oh, later on you're allowed to have a token.
Jordyn: The token, yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Well, and they get their token in the other...
Scotty: ah
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and In the main trilogy, you get your token, but...
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: They do. um like they yeah they inspect like the tributes they inspect the token because they want to make sure that's not happening which is because snow did it himself
Chris: Inspect them.
Jordyn: They check it. Yeah Okay. Right. Right.
Chris: Right.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It is amazing to see how the 10th. Hunger Games was so influential in what we see in Katniss's story.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah. Well, and snow specifically, because like the sending them food and making sure that they are fed so that they can fight and you know
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep.
Jordyn: betting on the games and the idea for like so many things like Because you can, I mean, it's easy to imagine the evolution over time. And that's another thing is like the the visual portrayal of like the technology of the time. And that's like.
Jordyn: you know like neo historical like 50s kind of like old school situation and then how it translates to the like ultra modern that we get and by the 74 75th hunger games is really cool
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: That is one thing I was going to mention was the sets and seeing how, like just 10 years later from the war, how.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: like it was all ruins like the capital was all in ruin it was gray and then flash forward
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: What? um um 64 years later and it's like it's rebuilt and it's beautiful and it's bright and it's colorful and um i i did want to commend the movie on that because it was
Jordyn: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's really cool to see that. um comparison between the two capitals.
Jordyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: and we see the way the tributes are treated right when they be brought in they get treated with relative luxury at first in the um 74th and everything whereas here they're dumped in a monkey cage so it's you know definitely and they're fed really well and they're you know the the way you get people to watch is you give these people something to watch so or get something to brew for so
Jordyn: And...
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Jordyn: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Bye. doing all that they talked about here we get to where we were in that one
Jordyn: You see the first iteration of the parade. you know around because they take a lap around the arena before the bomb goes off which turns into the carriages and the that you know promenade like there's just so many things that
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Chris: Yep.
Jordyn: president. I think I was most like intrigued by the fact that so many things that we see in the 74th and 75th Hunger Games. actually came straight from the brain of president snow and it wasn't
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: It wasn't as much of an over time. development the way we see like with the technology like it really was just I mean, maybe it took them several iterations of the Hunger Games to implement everything, but like all the ideas really came from right here.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: And then they kind of. took their time to you know spread it out. But. So much of it being straight from Snow makes sense why he is, you know, he says president, but like he's a dictator and but why he's in power for so, so long that Katniss his whole life, you know, said at least 17 years.
Jordyn: He's been the president the entire time.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay, well, we'll wrap up this first part and we will see you all next week when we cover part three of the book. Thanks for stopping by.
Jordyn: May the odds be ever in your favor.
