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Building Council Capability for Asbestos Risk Management with Ana Serra
117 Plays19 days ago
Ana Serra is an Environmental Engineer with over 20 years of experience across multiple countries and states, including Portugal, Ireland, Angola, Western Australia, and New South Wales. Ana is a Certified Environmental Practitioner and a Licensed Asbestos Assessor, and is currently the Coordinator of Asbestos and Remediation at Liverpool City Council, NSW.
Over the past 15+ years, her career has centred on asbestos and soil contamination management. Ana’s interest in stakeholder engagement began in her role at Council, where she strives to foster positive collaboration between environmental disciplines and key stakeholders. She is committed to enhancing awareness and dialogue among regulators, the community, local government, consultants, and contractors to deliver meaningful outcomes for the public.
This episode explores the complex challenges local councils face in managing asbestos and soil contamination. Drawing from her diverse international career and current role as Coordinator of Asbestos and Remediation at Liverpool City Council, Ana shares insights on risk-based approaches, internal capability-building, and stakeholder engagement.
Ana discusses Australia’s unique asbestos legacy, including its sheer volume and widespread use in housing and infrastructure, and the resulting impact on policy, regulation, and remediation. She explains how enforcement action by the EPA triggered a system-wide response at Liverpool, including new procedures, internal working groups, and improved cross-department coordination.
Key lessons include the importance of community communication, maintaining empathy while still acknowledging risk, and ensuring messaging is co-developed between technical and comms teams. Ana also notes that councils often underestimate the extent of their asbestos problems and stresses the need for site-specific strategies rather than blanket approaches.
Finally, Ana encourages local councils to tap into LGNSW and ALGA working groups, where peer learning and resource-sharing can help councils make practical progress, even when the scale of the issue feels overwhelming.
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Transcript
Introduction and Context
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Contamination Station, safer environment together, a New South Wales EPA funded podcast. In these episodes, you'll hear from those working to implement contaminated land policies and procedures at the local level by sharing our stories, frustrations, wins and losses.
00:00:19
Speaker
Our aim is for this podcast to become a repository of information that will support those currently working to combat contaminated land and for those yet to come.
Role and Experience of Anna Serra
00:00:30
Speaker
In today's episode, I'm joined by Anna Serra.
00:00:33
Speaker
Anna is the coordinator of Asbestos and Remediation at Liverpool City Council in New South Wales. She's an environmental engineer with over 20 years of experience across multiple countries and states, including Portugal, Ireland, Angola, Western Australia, and New South Wales.
00:00:50
Speaker
Anna is a certified environmental practitioner and a licensed asbestos assessor. Over the past 15 years, her career has centred on asbestos and soil contamination management.
00:01:01
Speaker
Anna's interest in stakeholder engagement began in her role at council where she strives to foster positive collaboration between environmental disciplines and key stakeholders. She's committed to enhancing awareness and dialogue among regulators, the community, local government, consultants and contractors to deliver meaningful outcomes for the public.
00:01:22
Speaker
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and the guests as individuals and do not necessarily reflect those of the New South Wales EPA or any other organisation.
International Career Insights
00:01:35
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this episode of Contamination Station, an EPA funded podcast. I'm your host, Chanel Gleason-Willie, and our guest today is Anna Serra. Hi, Anna. Thanks so much for being here.
00:01:47
Speaker
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So Anna, you've had an incredibly diverse career um internationally from Angola to Ireland and then New South Wales and Western Australia, expanding over 20 years in environmental engineering with the last 15 focused on asbestos and soil contamination.
00:02:09
Speaker
Looking back, what are some of the common themes or lessons that you've taken from this ah pretty diverse career? Well, it is it is very broad and it depends a lot of ah where we are and what we're doing.
00:02:24
Speaker
But I think um one of the things, and this might be a bit of a cliche, but one of the things that i actually find out is that we're all trying to get to the same outcomes. We're all insecure. we all want to be heard. all want to be acknowledged.
00:02:38
Speaker
We really want to do most of us the right thing and get on with it. and And that is quite surprising. Well, it is and it isn't. But when you notice that in in a larger scale, it's quite interesting.
00:02:52
Speaker
And that's one of the things that kind of steer me onto the communication because... People really want to be heard. They really want their fears to be heard, their outcomes to be heard, what they want.
00:03:05
Speaker
So you first need to acknowledge that. There's no point if ah you keep going going with theories and um all of the scientific facts if you're not listening to the people's concerns.
00:03:16
Speaker
And that was really one of the big lessons throughout. And it was a theme throughout the different places that I've been. I guess internationally and in Australia, you're saying that communication and especially around contamination is really important and that you've seen um that as common theme across all of your workplaces.
Asbestos Management Across Regions
00:03:40
Speaker
is there anything else that you've noticed around how asbestos and soil is managed that is either different or the same across the countries and different regions? it's It's very different because the different countries that I've been with are in different stages of of developing, let's say.
00:03:57
Speaker
So the thing that surprised me most in Australia was the sheer volume of asbestos materials in use. It is not just because this country is, extremely larger than anyone else that I've been, but it's also the timeframe that the country developed and the use of those materials, how they were implemented in the boom of construction.
00:04:19
Speaker
So just the fact that one in three houses are asbestos in Australia and and Australia is huge, that in numbers, ah trumps everything that I've lived in other areas.
00:04:30
Speaker
In Europe, the construction phase was different. So although there's still a lot in there, the volume and the approach is different. um In Angola, for example, the construction and the the materials being present as asbestos were not that available at the time.
00:04:48
Speaker
And a quick search that I had quite recently, i actually need to find out more information for curiosity about it. Actually, they've started to import materials quite pristily for the past five years to start using in the construction. And that, for me, is shocking. So there's just those materials there. Yes, yes. Wow. um And and that that means, yes, that we are in completely different points in time.
00:05:13
Speaker
Instead of of we should be banning across for a while and it's not happening still. um which is quite surprising. So the approaches are different. The stages are different. The numbers are different. There's so many things, factors that are according that we have to pay attention to.
00:05:29
Speaker
And I also, one of the things that I think it's very interesting in Australia is because of the mining factor, because it was mined for such a long time. So the impact that it has in Australia in that level, it's it's um it's higher.
00:05:41
Speaker
And the consequences of that are higher than than in Europe. or in Angola to my my knowledge. So yes, it's very interesting. ah is If you like the subject, it's very interesting.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So would you say in your experience that Australia is, and i guess, at the forefront of one of the the countries that addresses asbestos the best in the world?
00:06:07
Speaker
It is the forefront. ah The best so far might be the case. Would it be ideal? Maybe there's still a few things that need to be nudged out in my perspective. um It is difficult. It's such difficult to have such a large scale that needs things that need to happen in and ah across the entire country with the different states. It is very difficult. But yes, Australia has a very strong policy.
00:06:31
Speaker
and wants to to deal with it appropriately. And also very correlated with the number of people that had very ah much problems with it in terms of health-wise and affected by that. Not only some the persons who have the disease, but the persons who lived with people with disease that are have that ingrained in their memories of how bad it can be.
00:06:53
Speaker
um and It's so, there's so much out there. It's so much difficult get rid of everything. But yes, Australia is definitely committed of trying to eradicate asbestos and to make sure it does it in a safe way.
00:07:09
Speaker
It's a long battle, but we're going to get there, I think. I, you know, and you think that there's anything that the states in Australia can learn from each other, having worked across two different states?
00:07:23
Speaker
Is it a a fairly consistent approach Australia wide? Or do you think, and for instance, New South Wales can learn something from WA or vice versa? I think states can definitely learn from one another. The AA guidelines that came out with asbestos ah first, it was one of the first ones that the Australia could which usually tap in.
00:07:42
Speaker
um New South Wales used those guidelines for quite a long time. And that is good. That is a very good opportunity that we can tap it. But I think that ah it should be done more at a federal level.
00:07:55
Speaker
It should have been more because it is a national effort and it should be more tackled into that perspective. The amount of volume and cost that is associated with the dealing of this not only a state level, but into a personal level of the resident, it is very difficult. No one has that type of money to to use in remediation and demolition and disposal of the material. And there's so much involved in it in the process that it's very difficult. So I think that a very...
00:08:32
Speaker
strong approach in a federal way would be the best outcome to do that. But I have to say that the states have been doing their good thing, that such WA and New South Wales.
00:08:43
Speaker
And I know that I've been involved in those two. I can't say much about the other ones because I have lived there and experienced it particularly. I know that there are some also efforts onto it.
00:08:54
Speaker
I have to say that I know that there are, but I don't know specifics of that. Yeah, sure. Not a problem. Thank you.
Community Engagement in Environmental Management
00:09:01
Speaker
Are there any ah particular turning points or projects in your career that shape shaped your approach to stakeholder engagement or risk assessment?
00:09:10
Speaker
As ah in the the first question we were talking about in the theme of me is that I've noticed that other people want to be heard. That kind of was emphasized when I started to work in WA.
00:09:21
Speaker
I started in a small company and that small company, you have one-on-one connection with clients and residents and the amount of people that sometimes would call us crying because they thought,
00:09:34
Speaker
that children were exposed or their family was exposed. And hence, that kind of emphasized the fact that people need to be ah listened, they need to vent, they need to express their concerns.
00:09:46
Speaker
And I think that was pivotal moment for me. Because it kind of emphasizes that. You can't just go, yeah, you're right. There's low exposure. You just have someone that is completely in panic mode because they they think they're exposed. They think they're going to die. It's it's very emotional. It's very raw.
00:10:05
Speaker
And you have to take that into consideration, the empathy and compassion. You don't need to cry with them, but you need to be poised and and listen to you. provide the advice that is suitable as much as you can.
00:10:19
Speaker
i think being in small companies helped me with that and prove the point, continue to prove the point. Was there anything, i guess, that you can pass on as a bit of advice to other people who either just come into contaminated land management or are dealing with asbestos or council officers around what you did back then to um to help yourself to manage with that level of and emotion and ah the empathy required?
00:10:49
Speaker
Unfortunately, I don't think there's much in the realms of helping with that. It's it's much more for experience. um But one of the things that I've i've always had a strong feeling and I still agree on is that you you need to have people doing this job that understand what what the implications are.
00:11:08
Speaker
and understand what it actually means in terms of legislation, in terms of of the impacts that it has on the residents and stuff, costing, and um how does that affect policies, ah small scale, medium scale, and large scale.
00:11:23
Speaker
So you need to have someone with that understanding that can navigate and then tailor the communication to that level. I think we're going to discuss that little bit more in detail a bit later in the podcast. cast um So that's a great introductory for it.
00:11:39
Speaker
um But in your October 2024 conference presentation with LG New South Wales and the Blue Mountains Council, you spoke about the challenges that councils face and the benefits of internal capability.
00:11:51
Speaker
ah So can you share what some of those current challenges are and why building in-house expertise is so important, you know, basically coming off the back of what we just spoke about?
Building Internal Capability for Contamination Management
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think this is a ah great introduction to this topic because you need to know how to deal with contamination and how does that affect your regular operations. And that was one of the challenges that we had.
00:12:15
Speaker
It is who's the regulatory specific person for those particular operations. who This affects historical and controlled field. Who does that apply to? ah Illegal developments and legacy landfills, illegal dumping.
00:12:31
Speaker
were How to action for these particular ones? Because these are all challenges that I know all councils face. And um it is very difficult if you don't know what...
00:12:43
Speaker
avenue you can follow, you you can get very lost. You can get very lost. And it is so important to have the house expertise because they would be able to, if they know the framework, the legislation, they can direct exactly what is the best way to do it if it has to go.
00:13:01
Speaker
for the compliance, and a quick response and action, try to save costs in the best strategy, the right approach. How does that affect strategically when you're thinking about a project or at the end when you're doing it operationally?
00:13:16
Speaker
and it's also... it helps with your reputation also in in in being a good council, doing the right thing for their constituents and their residents and the community.
00:13:28
Speaker
um So yes, there was a lot of challenge challenges that I know that a lot of councils feel the same. Definitely. And how has Liverpool City Council approached building that internal capability and what have been the key enablers to, I guess, identify what those requirements were and then actually execute getting the right people?
00:13:52
Speaker
The big, big thing that made us... start this process was unfortunately the EPA was called for one ah particular event and then it ah untangled the knot and there was really no processes or way of dealing with things appropriately.
00:14:09
Speaker
So due to reinforcement undertaken by the EPA, we had to establish all procedures, all ways. We had asbestos and remediation system and waste system that had to be developed to tackle all of that and in all of those that if I mentioned before, legal dumping, operations and all of of the daily operations and strategic.
00:14:32
Speaker
So the key, um the key enablers was we had to go not only internally, we had to bring all the stakeholders internally and we have to make sure that they will all work together and we built the strategies together.
00:14:49
Speaker
So again, communication, bring them all into the what do we need? What is our problems? what What do we do? How can we fix it? And then embed that into the operations itself. The stakeholder external stakeholders are also very important, which are um the regulators that we have. We have the EPA, we have SafeWorks New South Wales, and communication with those helps definitely to bring everything together and try to establish a map of how to do things.
00:15:15
Speaker
We created internal groups. We have an asbestos working group with different departments. And that definitely was a huge helper because they're advocates for what we're doing. And there's a reason that why we're doing it kind of justifies itself.
00:15:31
Speaker
um We have to have staff support because it was one of the contentious issues that People know that asbestos can be a very health issue and we need to have management support. So all these key enablers, management, staff, internal groups, internal stakeholders, they all need to be together to and they are they are the key enablers for helping us with that.
00:15:57
Speaker
So you mentioned procedures and having to develop procedures. Was it an entire system that you had to develop from scratch? Yes. yeah Yes, from scratch. Based on the regulation legislation that already exists.
00:16:10
Speaker
um But it had to be tailored with the operations, how the system works in council yeah and how operations work in council. And did it also include tie-in to recruitment and identifying what types of people that you needed for the future?
00:16:26
Speaker
Yes. So one of the things that in the beginning, and and I wasn't part of that discussion in the beginning, ah was who are we going to ah be able to do this? And um I think that do we upskill people or do we get someone else that understands the system?
00:16:44
Speaker
And of course, and and I do know a lot of councils to try to do that, to upskill the people to the knowledge, but it takes years to get an understanding of the intricates of legislation and how did that applies.
00:16:57
Speaker
I would still say that so they got someone, which is at the time was me, who has an understanding not only in contamination land, but also had um the licensed asbestos assessor. So I do and understand how asbestos in building structures are interlinked.
00:17:12
Speaker
So that combination of the two of them and made me at the time the best person to be here because not only we have contamination land, but we also have We need to the assets to be managed and the buildings to be managed and refurbishments and everything that needs to happen with that.
00:17:28
Speaker
So that was one of the initial stage. Who should we get to help us with that? They tried internally. They found out that they had issues with the knowledge of what's the best way to proceed ah because consultants can definitely help us, but they don't know exactly how council works. So there has to be an interlink with information with that.
00:17:49
Speaker
That's why i was brought in to help with this solution without in the beginning. To kind of bridge that that requirement to cross over between needing the council knowledge and consultant knowledge. yeah Yes, yes.
00:18:01
Speaker
Very good. Also higher there. So you've led some award-winning work at Liverpool City Council, including a 2019 risk assessment of 17 parks the 2024 recognition for an innovating risk-based approach using ground stable stability materials.
Innovative Approaches in Asbestos Management
00:18:22
Speaker
Can you walk us through how that approach worked and what made it different? The risk-based approach that we tried with the ah maintenance operations at parks, it was necessary because some of our staff were actually concerned of maintenance of parks, of daily operations that sometimes had fragments in it.
00:18:41
Speaker
and And we didn't, at the time, we didn't know exactly why that happened. Later on, we found out that it's due to uncontrolled asbestos in field. um So, and it is quite spread, unfortunately, around some parks and some areas in Liverpool.
00:18:58
Speaker
And they were concerned, they actually didn't know what there was potential exposure to them, that they were doing this parks maintenance. So, we there's not much literature talking about this.
00:19:09
Speaker
and um we establish a risk and assessment methodology that we can try to get some information and data that can give us exactly what happens on the ground.
00:19:21
Speaker
And we wanted to have a big number of parks, huge amount data. we we We set up air monitorings, we set up exposure monitorings. we We did so much to try to find some data. And that was amazing because...
00:19:34
Speaker
This was done with them, with the staff. So they were able to also express their concerns, provide some ideas. This is what we're going to do, we said. It's a what you think. And they provided some suggestions.
00:19:45
Speaker
And it showed, it provided that we were taking care of their concerns and we had some data to help with the next stage, what we're going to do next.
00:19:56
Speaker
Of course, this required management of these sites and nevertheless, but they were, ah I believe that they are still very happy that we were able to do that approach. And I think that's what makes it different.
00:20:09
Speaker
First, it's not a very common um assessment that's been done and we involve them straight away. for them to know that their concerns were being heard and we wanted to make sure we do a proper management.
00:20:25
Speaker
And it's the same thing with and know the another one that we're trying to do in terms of alternative alternative capping methods. We're trying to see ah how much can we actually do but and try to to be as efficient as possible.
00:20:40
Speaker
So we have, Council has hundreds of sites that they have to manage. And if ah if there is and from legacy and control field in a lot of locations, so we have to be sensitive and sensible about it.
00:20:54
Speaker
And we have to think of ways, practical information, and also financially sensible that we can use them ah for the long term. So yes, we're we're trying to get all the stakeholders on board, try to make them see if this works.
00:21:09
Speaker
Them being involved is kind of the key message here. Otherwise, eat doesn't work. that They dismiss it. yeah And we were talking earlier about the fact that a lot of the data that you collected during this risk assessment, it actually turned out that the levels of asbestos that they were being exposed to was low to negligible.
00:21:32
Speaker
Was that across um all the parks and areas that you assessed or did you have a few that did actually require quite large scale remediations such as ripping the grass off and and capping whole thing?
00:21:45
Speaker
ah All of them require some level of maintenance in the long term anyway. but they're all considered to be low on exposure. So one of the things that we know is that if there's fragments there, the first thing we would do, we pick them up.
00:21:57
Speaker
There is absolutely not a question about that. and And that is the first action that we do. And if it's found, we action it That's the thing. But if we have large areas that we just can't cap, we're going slowly, slowly, try to...
00:22:13
Speaker
investigate them, see the extent of it. Is there options? yeah can Are we actually building something in there that does a ah proper capping by itself? do Are we going to excavate to put a building?
00:22:27
Speaker
What is the next strategy we're actually going to do to the park? And then we kind of um see if there's any point of capping with but soil or do we use alternate capping or we're going to put a playground.
00:22:40
Speaker
So it each case, it has to be looked case by case. But all of them were low to manageable, but they still maintain a management strategy that we need to implement, continue to implement.
00:22:52
Speaker
and And was there any, I guess, major changes are required? So did you need to rezone any of these areas to actually change it from a park to something else?
00:23:03
Speaker
No, there was no need for, at least at this stage, and no need for rezoning. Liverpool City Council is going through a a major boom due to the the airport um and the Western Sydney.
00:23:14
Speaker
So we do have a lot of sites that we are acquiring and rezoning and developing and changing. ah but not in regards to um the the contamination in land.
00:23:25
Speaker
ah We do take that into consideration too. And now into the process of the strategic plan that we have. So we are involved into that conversation. But we did have ah things that we changed in a more operational perspective.
00:23:39
Speaker
So we ensure that the mowers were, the blades were a certain height. We ensure that the PPE was adequate for the the job that they were doing. And the PPE was mostly to do with ah the amount of dust actually that the operation generates by itself, and which is general, not even associated. So we did have recommendations that we would push forward and reaction it more to their operation point of view.
00:24:07
Speaker
um Fortunately, so far, there was nothing that was that bad that had to be in a a in a ah planning perspective changed.
Effective Community Reporting and Management
00:24:16
Speaker
Okay. And how did the community respond to this whole process?
00:24:21
Speaker
they There was very much concern at the beginning, but because usually the community has two extremes. One extreme is, um um this is very bad. I'm very concerned. You guys don't do anything about it This is very bad. We're all going to die.
00:24:38
Speaker
The other extreme is, this has been here for ages. People been working at it for ages. It's really not an issue. So you're trying to raise the concern but diminish the panic mode.
00:24:51
Speaker
So there's a fine balance in there. and There's a lot of, again, communication. we We are not as active as communication, as ah awareness, educational ah to the community just yet.
00:25:02
Speaker
But we have print flyers about, you know, receive uncontrolled fuel feel, feel, feel. and control field from the EPA that we use and we distribute it to the local residents.
00:25:14
Speaker
We also have a collection free program of asbestos that they can use that have certain terms and conditions. So we use these opportunities to to have a big chat with the community.
00:25:25
Speaker
But the community, and I'm sure most of the councils will say that, the community is very vocal. they If they have a problem, they will say about it. They have they are no snow shy of that. And we will respond and whenever we can with the appropriate measures. And one of the things that we say is that if if there's something's not right, tell us.
00:25:45
Speaker
We can't have eyes everywhere. We don't know what everything that's going on. We try to be as much practical as possible, but sometimes it's not possible. So you need to tell us so we can action it if that's the case. If we don't know, then we can action it.
00:25:59
Speaker
And I think that approach also helps that people... There's a legal dump on that street. And sometimes we have three emails of the same pile, but it's better to have that than have none.
00:26:10
Speaker
um So, yes, I think um people will continue to be vocal, which is and going to try to use that for our benefit. And do you have any, I guess, ah things that you've learnt through this communication process, and such as, I guess, steve did you bring in the internal communications thing to help you with consistent messaging um around this issue or and anything else that you can pass on as knowledge learnt? Yeah.
00:26:37
Speaker
I think that we always have to bring the comms team into the the conversations. One of things that we've learned is that the communication and they they put on a message in a certain way.
00:26:49
Speaker
But in terms of risk assessment and exposure, we can't say things in a certain way. So one of the things that we have to be very careful is that and there is no exposure or there's no risk. We can't ever say that because it's things outside our control. We can't...
00:27:07
Speaker
So the message has to be careful ah thought between us and the community team. And they they have been amazing with that. And they go, can we say this? and Not really.
00:27:17
Speaker
But you can't say this. And say, oh, not really. Can we say that? And we kind of go ah back and forth until we got a a happy intermedium that everyone's happy with. I said, okay, that's it. I'm happy with that. Are you happy with that? Good. Let's go.
00:27:32
Speaker
nona Sounds like a very interesting ah bit of fun as well. So you're active in Alvis working groups and forums around asbestos and clearly passionate about cross-sector collaboration.
00:27:48
Speaker
As you look ahead, what do you think local councillors need to prioritise when it comes to asbestos management?
Prioritizing Local Council Strategies
00:27:55
Speaker
I think first of all, they need to know the extent of the problem. Because I have a lot of councils that, and and in informal commoner conversations, they've said to me, oh, we don't have an asbestos problem.
00:28:08
Speaker
And I go, I think you do, you just don't know it yet. Fair enough. Yeah, but yeah i'm I'm not the one setting the pod. It's just, yeah, you kind of need to know the extent of it. Or maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you don't have it because in a particular point in time where the city or the town was built, that was not be the case. Yeah.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yes, I think the extent of problem, the thing that you need to prioritiize prioritize, and then how does it affect different departments? Because it has different impacts. And that were the ones that you have to think about then fixing, let's say, or helping to fix.
00:28:45
Speaker
And that's how the procedures and and policies would then change because depending on on what we are actually doing. And This also helps because each council from from the ones that I've been working with, they have different types of systems and they work differently.
00:29:04
Speaker
And every council does it its own way. And even the asbestos management comes into different departments when it comes to the action of it. I know that some does does it for from the DA approvals, for example.
00:29:18
Speaker
and the planning pathway where the environmental health officers have to kind of look at that in in a particular VA path. There's some who do it from the WHS pathway and they allocate all the systems and procedures to in a WHS perspective because it actually comes from the WHS Act.
00:29:37
Speaker
So it kind of makes sense for that way too. ah We did it from the environment perspective because what triggered it came through the environment stream. So it it you need to know the extent of the problem and how does it affect you and in your operations. So I can't give i can give my experience and and what we've done about it, but I know that it will not be merit to any council.
00:30:02
Speaker
They have to dwell in it and and that's kind of so and so a lot of work. That's hard work. e I mean, you mentioned earlier about how the working group that you set up was one of the best things that that was done for this issue.
00:30:16
Speaker
All of those internal stakeholders that you just mentioned, all those teams, ah they do they have representatives in that working group? Yes, so ah in our asbestos working group, we have one of the delivery civils team, ah one for the illegal waste, um the the coordinator is there.
00:30:35
Speaker
We have one from the the West Invest, which is the one of the major projects that we have. So they are in there too. We have one, the coordinators for the parks. and we have WHS representative and that's why there's a little bit of ownership of what we do and then they can feed that information to the other departments, to each one of their own departments.
00:30:58
Speaker
And I think that that is one of the biggest things because you need to have these conversations about little things. What happened in that park? What should we do? What happened in that fence? What should we do?
00:31:10
Speaker
um what do you think this has a ah perspective of the residents in WHS? What do you think about that project? And because we kind of discuss all of them to together ah together and we can reach into an agreement, what's the best option in me in terms of legislation? What can we do about it? And then they, at the part of the operation.
00:31:31
Speaker
And again, it's a little back and forth. Can we do this? No, because it doesn't work with us. We don't use that machine or we can't do this, but can we do that? Oh yes, that might work. When can that happen? So it is, it is, um,
00:31:45
Speaker
the departments have to put that input in, otherwise it doesn't work. And we were just ah mentioned um tools. there Are there any emerging tools or partnerships that you're excited about bringing potentially to your council but that could help councils manage risk more effectively?
00:32:04
Speaker
Well, I think that the ones that we have ah existing now, they are already very good. And I've seen a huge, huge upgrade in all of and the information that's been provided, information shared.
00:32:17
Speaker
And I can tell that the the specialized groups that we have in even local government, the asbestos group, ah local government of South Wales, ah local government contaminated land group,
00:32:28
Speaker
They are very good because they bring people together and they can talk about all the experiences. We have the great podcasts. For example, this it's one. yeah Contamination Station. But there's other ones that um and I've sent...
00:32:45
Speaker
that are also very good that I think I would recommend everyone to have a look because honestly, we all have to learn from the experience of others. And even I learn things from there that I haven't experienced that they can help me with.
00:33:00
Speaker
ah One of the things, for example, Blue Mountains has a team for asbestos removal and they have issues with their landfill and I've learned a lot from them from that. ah The Shire, Southern Shire, they have a lot of experience with the DAs and I've learned a lot from them.
00:33:16
Speaker
The groups are amazing and I just, I could name it so many and people, even um from Victoria and in all of the different councils that we've been working on. There's so many. I i start naming a few so I have to name them all now. I'm sorry.
00:33:32
Speaker
that But yeah, I shouldn't start naming them. But even the the podcast, we have the Below the Surface podcast that they discuss a lot of the issues. And this ah will definitely help people, even if you're just starting.
00:33:49
Speaker
That is huge, great, amazing tools that people have the same issues that we can just nudge them out and discuss and learn with others. I definitely recommend that.
00:34:01
Speaker
Yes, that's definitely a ah great podcast. i like listening to that one as well. I want to take a different jump because I forgot to ask you a question, but we mentioned in i guess, the case study about the risk assessments, the use of ground stability or ground stabilising materials um across some of the parks.
00:34:20
Speaker
Are you able to, I guess, give me a bit more of an understanding of what that means and what what you did? Yes. it's so I think it's more associated with the alternative capping methods that we use for the capping systems.
00:34:33
Speaker
So um as I mentioned before, we have a lot of legacy her with places with uncontrolled field with asbestos. And it is quite substantial, and and unfortunately.
00:34:43
Speaker
um And traditional cappings, and I'm just talking in a broad term, of course, that will be... specific cases, but traditional cap pack cappings are very conservative how to deal risk.
00:34:56
Speaker
They have geofabric, they have half a meter soil on top. And um we've been encountering some situations where the geofabric does not have enough permeability in areas of high flow,
00:35:09
Speaker
of and and flooding areas that needed to be drained quite quickly. And it is very difficult when you have extensive areas of that we need remediation to get materials to have a proper capping of half a metre.
00:35:23
Speaker
And um most of them was associated with clay material and it's very difficult to get clay material. So we've tried to organise and and and tried to do a little bit of a list of the risks and the risk-based approach, which kind of we don't,
00:35:38
Speaker
technically need capping of clay because the clay itself is not a very permeable material and it is quite thick. So we're thinking, can we actually replace this with other tile material?
00:35:50
Speaker
Even the geofabric, can we replace the geofabric with something more permeable? And it's still resistant and it's still... So we elicit all of the the concerns that we had and what we still needed to achieve.
00:36:03
Speaker
And we we tried alternative methods to replace that. The ones that we have, and it is, we have a different type of, ah it's not a geofabric, it's geogrid, which is a different material that still should be high colors, she still should be preventing access to the below layers.
00:36:23
Speaker
But we're only talking about one of the asbestos. So we need to ensure that we have different all the risks and concerns accounted for and then we tick them all with the alternative method.
00:36:36
Speaker
The major changes as I said was the geofabric being replaced by a geogrid that still provides the same function and the reducing of capping of 0.5 to 0.3 if appropriate to the side of course and changing of the type of soil from clay to a more graded or even sandstone crushed or top material depending on the type of site that we are and what is the purpose of that site.
00:37:03
Speaker
So those are the three major changes that we are, let's say, challenging or considering. But I have to make a note that it is specific to the site and we are trying to allocate those changes to make sure that they work for the site.
00:37:19
Speaker
So it's not a blanket rule that applies to all. And I think that it's actually very important. And yes, we're we're getting good results and hopefully to continue have them.
00:37:30
Speaker
Yeah, I guess looking at i again yeah site-based ah risk assessment, so each site as an individual um and looking at all factors is what you're talking about. And it's really great that you have done that, have have gone that extra length they and just and not just gone with blanket approach, which in some ways might have been a lot easier, but in the long run, probably a lot more costly and less effective, as you said. So i think that's a great solution that you've come up with there. Yeah.
00:38:02
Speaker
Thank you. What are some of the key considerations when assessing risk in public spaces like parks, um particularly with all legacy see asbestos?
Risk Assessment and Community Involvement
00:38:12
Speaker
ah One of the things that that come to mind and I would like to share is that there's a few things to consider. So the health exposure, ah potentially health exposure to residents in the community and the park users ah must be addressed first to know if there's an issue or not.
00:38:29
Speaker
And that has to be dealt with. And one of the things also from experience is public perception. So you have to manage that. Do not disregard people's concerns. and show what you've done. So yes, this was a concern, we've done this and that's because people perception is usually a big thing.
00:38:48
Speaker
And then once you have those, which are the basic core ones, you have to know the extent of the problem on the side. So delineation of the issue vertically or horizontally in consulting can do that and assess that.
00:39:03
Speaker
that um And then once you know the problem, how that actually affects the maintenance of the park, the operations or the development of anything that you do in your park, a sports field, whatever, and then ah know what to do next to achieve that goal.
00:39:22
Speaker
and And in a basic level, then how does that actually affect the impairment of the land? Because if it's contaminated, then we'll have an impairment on it. and that might have implication of insurancy, value, liability to counsel, and what does that entail.
00:39:40
Speaker
ah There's a few things to consider. And when you're going through this whole process, just and a question, I guess, from the operations side of things, as soon as you become aware that there is asbestos fragments in these parks, though, before you've done enough investigation to really quantify what's there and get a good understanding,
00:40:00
Speaker
the Did the council basically shut down the parks, like, you caught in the moth and prevent the public from using them and prevent maintenance from being done for period of time? It depends on the the the case because if it's just a few fragments on the ground, we don't close the park because we section that part off and we go straight away, and I mean same day, and we do a removal in your picking.
00:40:24
Speaker
So it might have been just an illegal dump. we don't know where it come from. Might be someone just came out and and did had a panel in the backyard and this this actually happens. And they just came in on and just left the panel in the middle of the park.
00:40:38
Speaker
And there's there's no point of closing the entire park because of that. So we just go there, collect the thr the the the panel and that's it. And then throughout the weekend, the panel got um broken in pieces. So we just removed those.
00:40:52
Speaker
So that there is it's very important to know what the source is, or maybe it was just um fragments and of of all fencing that was replaced that are still there. And it happens a lot in the edges of the residential area.
00:41:04
Speaker
So it really depends where it comes from. If it's some in very big deterioration stage, um then we might consider to close a specific section.
00:41:15
Speaker
Otherwise, it there's it really depends on the stages of what we find out. Usually, it has to be something extremely, really bad for us to close the park. Fortunately, that them the fragments that we have are usually bonded and they are not friable. the The big key here is not being friable.
00:41:35
Speaker
If we had issues ah such with the legacy of James Hardy landfills where actually you have friable in parks, that is a different scenario.
00:41:48
Speaker
So it has to apply to the scenario that you have. Fortunately, we don't have that many. I don't think we have any to our knowledge that needs to be closed because of that. But it has to be tailored to the situation itself.
00:42:03
Speaker
When um I was doing consulting, that included ah lots of for asbestos in me picks and going and looking at the sites, and I did notice that after rain was when you typically found more fragment asbestos across site. I mean, obviously im I'm talking about yeah sites that are under active construction, so therefore there's not a huge amount of vegetation there.
00:42:28
Speaker
But is this something or are there any other, ah guess, correlations that you've found um around when you're more likely to find fragments of asbestos not related to illegal dumping? Well, yes, there's few things that we have to consider. So if we know that the park was developed 30, 40 years ago, we now know there's a asbestos there, it's been there for a long time. Even on the surface, no one knew was something that no really paid attention.
00:42:58
Speaker
But now we do. So there are ah some areas that we've tackled a few emu picking events throughout you three months ah period, six months period, and all of the ones that kind of emerged for the past.
00:43:14
Speaker
30 years, they're gone. So they might pop up, but they won't be that common anymore. But still we do site inspections. Still, if we find out, we go and pick them up.
00:43:24
Speaker
So the frequent of happening those issues there are not as much. I'm agreeing with you. This is areas that, this this is not construction areas that are being disturbed. This is areas that no one's touching them for decades.
00:43:38
Speaker
ah we still need to know the extent of it, if it's really uncontrolled feel or what it is. But yes, we have site-specific management plans to deal with the sites, with the information that we have of them.
00:43:52
Speaker
ah So what advice would you give to counsellors that feel overwhelmed by legacy asbestos or unsure where to start? The big question. Yes, the big question. I think I've kind of touched that a little bit.
Strategic Advice for Managing Legacy Asbestos
00:44:05
Speaker
I think one of the important things is... um find someone that actually knows that to navigate all the legislation framework. I think it is important to keep in touch with the groups that already had experiences and follow through with some of the actions that they've decided. That is actually very important.
00:44:26
Speaker
And um I think it's important that this is a very big job and there is no actually solution that it can be stamped and started to work from day one.
00:44:40
Speaker
So you need to be aware of that, that it is a big job. You can do what you can do slowly, slowly, bit by bit, make a strategy and each day is its day and you're going to do a little bit to achieve that goal.
00:44:53
Speaker
And you might not be doing all of that, but whatever you do, it's much better than it was before. and And that's it, just continuing pushing on. i think Otherwise, we'll all be completely overwhelmed.
00:45:07
Speaker
But it's a day's a day, next day's another day, and we'll continue. and And each council, I guess, has their unique issues or experiences around asbestos.
00:45:19
Speaker
And... No, I'm not in that those positions where I don't have personal experience, but I would have thought also that being a part of the LG New South Wales Contaminated Lambs group that has forum where the council officers can ask questions of each other would help with those initial steps or, you know, just asking for advice around something that maybe your council hasn't ever dealt with people, but there's probably another council in New South Wales that's been dealing with it for years. and And I've also, i forgot to mention the ALGA groups.
00:45:51
Speaker
So alga has the ALGA is the Australian and Groundwater situation Associations. We have special interest groups and they have the local government group that is also people that are very active and interested in follow those, the best solutions to the issues and and advocate for ah better procedures, policies and things to be aligned framework. So it is the very good local ah government groups that have are good technically, and they really want to help.
00:46:27
Speaker
So from experience, because they know how hard it is. Well, thank you very much. Well, lastly, before I say goodbye, and thank you. um Is there anything else that we haven't touched on today that you would like to um leave as a parting comment for the podcast?
00:46:43
Speaker
No, not really. i think I think these opportunities and this podcast is a wonderful opportunity for for people to come in and express their experiences and ideas. And I really love the way that the wonderful job that you're doing.
00:46:56
Speaker
And it is very important. I think you please, please continue. Yeah, I'm looking forward to listening to the next one too. Oh, thank you. And thank you so much for being my guest today. It's been great to have this conversation and ah really, really useful practical conversation, I feel, that we've had today, which will hopefully help lots of people out there in the different councils.
00:47:19
Speaker
So thank you very much. That wraps up this episode of Contamination Station Podcast. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to Contamination Station, Safer Environment Together, an EPA-funded podcast hosted by Chanel Gleeson-Wiley.
00:47:36
Speaker
We hope you've enjoyed our chat and been inspired to continue working towards a safer environment together. We would love for you to stick around for the next episode. So keep those headphones on, grab another cuppa, and settle in for more insightful stories.