Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to The Choice to Grow. I'm Scott Schwenk. Through these dialogues, we'll explore fresh perspectives and discover practical tools for navigating a thriving life that adds value wherever we are.
Speaker: I'll introduce you to innovators and creators from across our world who embody what it means to cultivate growing as a way of life. Let's prepare together.
Speaker: Take a deep breath in.
Speaker: Hold the breath briefly as you soften your shoulders and soften the soles of your feet and palms of your hands. Then exhale like you're releasing tension and setting down a heavy burden from every cell.
Speaker: Ah. Now let's dive in.
Speaker: Welcome back, everybody. I love being with you in this way, and it's a thrill. I avoided it for so many years until I finally realized it had to be done and I wanted to do it.
Speaker: And the choice to grow was born. I'm thrilled to bring you in connection with my next guest. My next guest has worked with people and organizations in change as an advisor, consultant and teacher, both in Sweden and internationally.
Speaker: He regularly leads development programs at his own retreat center and has extensive experience as a program director and faculty member at SSE Executive Education, Oxford Leadership and Companions for Leadership.
Speaker: He's been a guest speaker at Harvard Business School and has published some 25 articles in the Swedish Business Magazine Aspar, can you say it for me? Oh, afärsværdem, Swedish. Thank you. It sounds so much lovelier when you say it.
Speaker: Karl's got a master's degree of science from the Stockholm School of Economics and started his career as a management consultant. He wrote his first book in 2007 after making a major life change in his own life.
Speaker: He's deeply curious about human development. Without further ado, I just want to bring you on Carl Lindberg is an extraordinary human being. We had some time in the green room. We know each other through a number of wonderfully developed human beings with huge hearts.
Speaker: Carl, welcome to the show. Welcome to The Choice to Grow. I've been waiting for this since we've scheduled it. Well, thank you, Scott. Me too. It's just a pleasure to be here. So when you hear the title of this show, The Choice to Grow, what does that currently evoke for you?
Speaker: Well, I love the title, first of all, it speaks to me and on many levels. It also reminds me of, there was a priest and scientist called Tilar Desjardins, French person.
Speaker: And he said at some point that humanity has come so far in its evolvement and and and its development. So any further growth is a choice.
Speaker: And I do believe it's true, you know, and the choice to grow is probably one of the most important choices we ever can make in our lives. And I think in this time when the world gets just more complex and, you know, it's changing very fast, we as human beings need to grow to be able to match that complexity with our inner capacities.
Speaker: Otherwise, um it's it's quite difficult to you know be balanced or find meaning or contribute. So I think it's just it's a vital choice. And it's a choice that I have worked with for from with myself for a long time, more than 20 years.
Speaker: We both come out of a framework that's called integral theory, thanks to the incredible work of the brilliant philosopher Ken Wilber. I'm wondering if you could help just show us in your own language, Ken has spoken about, taught about, and then carried on by Dustin Dupurna and others, four areas. And I articulate that on my website, but I'd love to hear how you talk about growing through four areas, waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and showing up.
Speaker: Well, those I've heard those four a lot. i I haven't really sort of talked a lot around them. So I will definitely just use my own language and my own understanding.
Speaker: So, so say the first one again, and then we'll go waking up. Waking up. Yeah. Waking up.
Speaker: It's interesting because, you know, at some point in our lives we have, you know, we are We're coming from somewhere where we have you know we have experiences, we have programming, we are living our lives and we're doing our thing. And then suddenly something may happen in our lives. And that happened to me at some point where all I took for granted was suddenly not as meaningful as I thought. And I had to stop.
Speaker: um And I got sick, actually. and And I had to turn around and look at myself. And and that's that was my kind of wake up, I think. And and it's very personal, you know, how that waking up would show up in people's lives.
Speaker: But It's almost like we live sometimes, i think it's like, I think about the movie, The Matrix, you know, it's in interesting you know it's so easy to just take My all time favorite movie. It's just amazing. and it And it's so relevant today, I think.
Speaker: And the waking up is sometimes painful.
Speaker: Sometimes it's driven by some kind of crisis, right? Yeah. But it's also beautiful because it's ah it's a gateway, it's a portal into a whole new understanding of yourself, of of life and and your place in life.
Speaker: So that would be, you know, of just a few reflections on um the waking up. yeah And which is the second one? Second one, will we say growing up. I mean, not that they're necessarily in a particular order. They're spoken in an order of waking up, growing up, cleaning up, showing up.
Speaker: However, Some people begin with the growing up. Yeah, yeah. And I think that they are processes that are are interconnected. But the growing up is interesting because there is, of course, this maybe belief sometimes that, you know, we grow through faces as children and as teenagers. My children are in their teens.
Speaker: They go through faces. I can obviously see that. But then there was this almost maybe naive belief that we would be sort of finished when we when we turn into an adult.
Speaker: um But we know both you and I in in our own experience, but also through working with a lot of people and through these sort of theories that we refer to, that the growing up can continue well throughout your whole life, basically. I mean, there is no end, i think, to...
Speaker: to how we can grow and develop. And some of that happens by itself. Well, not by itself, but by through just living your life, right? and We are faced with various experiences and situations that makes us grow. But I also think that that that choice to grow, the deliberate choice and the curiosity and the openness and the interest in growing will accelerate that a lot.
Speaker: Then the cleaning up, well, well
Speaker: We are complex beings, right? And we carry all this luggage with us.
Speaker: Well said. Lots of luggage. Luggage and you know stored, trapped emotions. and And there is so much stuff that we that we carry. and And the cleaning up, I think, is something you have to do in parallel with integrating new things, new perspectives. And if you never clean up, it's going to be a complete mess in the end.
Speaker: ah and sometimes we say that we have these hooks you know we were hooked into something so we can we can grow and develop and we think we are in you know so you know in a more evolved state and then suddenly something hooks us back into a you know logic and you know meaning making logic that that we thought we had left earlier you know for instance you know if you get into an argument with a parent or a sibling or somebody you've spent time with for a long time ago you you may maybe
Speaker: feel that you're suddenly drawn into you that you thought you had left. Right. So so there are all these hooks and there are all this luggage that we have to work with continuously, I think. And and, you know, part of that we can do ourselves. Maybe sometimes we need help and support ah in order to do that in in in ah in an effective way.
Speaker: I want to bring in a line here from your book that touches on this. You you write and early on in the book, we are shaped by culture. family, school, friends, and extraordinary events.
Speaker: But we are not born with the tools to critically analyze the impressions and messages we receive from the outside world. think that's a helpful frame for this section of growing up. Like, what are we dealing with? Like how how we make meaning of any given moment.
Speaker: Right. And, do you know, as you said, like often there's some some challenge, some difficulty, some something that seems necessary in my life for me to actually pause and actually question how I'm making meaning. Otherwise, I'm just going through my moments the way is familiar. I'm not thinking about it. I'm just doing my life yeah until something happens that's got some level of energy that's that catches my attention and I go, wait a minute.
Speaker: And in that wait a minute, I think we're all very, very unique in how we might proceed forward. Some of us, many of the people I know are going to stop and go, there's got to be another way to see this.
Speaker: The way I'm seeing this is not working. It's creating pain for myself and others. But tell tell us more about your experience of that. No, but I think you're completely right. And many experience we have early in our lives, obviously, we have to navigate and deal with based on you know, the level of of internal meaning making capacity that we have at that time. And sometimes the only thing we can do is to, you know, push it away or deny it, or we can't process it properly because we haven't
Speaker: develop that capacity and so a lot of the cleaning up comes later because then we have to go back to experience we've had with new resources either we carry them that they those resources in ourselves or we get some support from the outside and then we can unpack and and we can look at things or we can just be with things in awareness and let them gradually transform.
Speaker: And I think that kind of work may seem daunting, but once you get into it, it can be also so very you know satisfying that if you can create that space within you to hold what's difficult without getting lost in it, and you feel that you're more than that,
Speaker: That's also very powerful. In the section that you titled right after what I read called The Potential to Become Something More, you've got this quote. And I taught myself how to say his name.
Speaker: And it was 10 or 12 years ago. So now i don't know if I can. How do you say his name again? Who's? Mihaly. Mihaly.
Speaker: That. So him, who wrote the famous book Flow, we've got a quote here that says, complex skills are built up through complex activities. Complex skills are built up through complex activities. Evolution is the story of the complexification of human matter.
Speaker: This deserves unpacking. For a lot of people, it's a very complex statement. Like, what did he just say? i don't understand what that means. But like my experience, and and i'm curious yours,
Speaker: is that as we grow up, we can recognize more and more of reality. It's like if I if i if i showed you a cover of this you know this book, the Shiva Sutras, but i only i only show you this little area I'm making. ah If you're just listening, i'm I'm showing a book cover and I'm covering everything except for the size of a quarter or a dime.
Speaker: And that's all i that's all I see when maybe I'm from zero to 10 years old. And bit by bit, if I get to grow, I can see more of the cover, i.e. more of reality and how different living systems are connected to each other, how everything is connected and how to actually discern the best way forward in a given moment for everyone involved.
Speaker: Thoughts on that? No, I think you're right. um And I think... When we grow, we learn to, I mean, part of the growing is the ability to hold multiple perspectives, not just the first one that pops up, right?
Speaker: But another perspective and a third perspective and and to hold them, even if they seem to be in paradox, hold them anyways, right? With curiosity and openness. And that goes also with understanding other people. you know if If I'm facilitating a meeting, for instance, it could be 10 different perspectives in the room. and and holding them without judging and understanding where the different perspectives are coming from and how they may be connected or or maybe not be connected.
Speaker: That's more complexity than saying, oh, this is black and this is white. There's very little complexity in that. Of course, coming down with really heavy energy, like ah you know somebody from the C-suite says,
Speaker: This is the way we're doing it and this is the only way to see it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's going on in the world a lot, right? Especially, I mean, if if you just open the news and you have politicians talking about the big challenges we face as humanity, a lot of that comes from various, I believe from, from quite, I mean, it's, it's pretty simple logics, uh, many times, uh, and.
Speaker: And that's why we struggle so much, because when you have really complex context, you know, you you you need to really listen into the field and you need to sense into the field and you need to really sense what needs to emerge. And the moment you start you know, using your your knowledge that comes from history and trying to apply that on something we've never been before or something we have to be, but we've never been before.
Speaker: It's very limiting. And usually we come into a onto a path which is not really the most helpful one. And I think we see that a lot today. So you work directly with people in different scenarios.
Speaker: and their own perspective taking capacity. Have you at this point seen like a few, I know I have in my work, like a few specific things that I bring to everybody in terms of their training that really help to cultivate that. What do you see in your own work that works really, really well to help people cultivate this capacity? One, the the realization that it's important to have greater perspective and two, that which actually develops those wider perspectives and embodies them.
Speaker: So I work mainly with leaders, mainly with, I would say people with formal management positions. And that has been my field of of choice because like I came from a business background and then I did ah a long journey of ah of discovery and searching. And then I came back into the business context, which I can relate to with, but with, you know, another understanding and and another contribution. And, and what I see, I guess, if I, if I'm going to draw some kind of, you know, themes here that, that keep recurring, but I think one of the most important things today, I believe is just helping these people I work with leaders to stop, take a breath, just as you do in the start of this podcast, you know, relax.
Speaker: find their balance, find their core, find the space to not just think, but to sense with awareness into what's going on. And, and I think I try to do that.
Speaker: whether I name it or not in in everything I do. and Let's touch on awareness, though, before you go too far, because you and I have a real shorthand for what awareness is distinct from, say, ordinary thinking.
Speaker: But yeah I'd love for you to unpack that a little bit for the person who's listening who's like, wait, there's a difference between awareness and my thoughts about the past? Yeah. So I think what I mean, and I think you probably share this.
Speaker: So awareness for me is what's beyond thought and it's beyond feeling and it's beyond, you know, the input that comes through our five senses, the sense doors.
Speaker: So there is something there. There's something still there, right? If I don't have a thought, if I don't have a feeling, there is something still there. And that's the awareness. So when I come from my awareness, I have the capacity to suddenly observe my own thoughts coming and going.
Speaker: And I have the capacity to follow things. you know, my emotions in in moving through the body. They're they kind of physical, right? So you talking about metacognition or are we in the zone of awareness?
Speaker: sounds little bit more like metacognition, like the ability to think about my thinking. Yeah, but to me, they they are connected because the great, I think you referred to also this greater field of awareness, right? Beyond myself.
Speaker: Yeah, that's not my awareness. It's all awareness. Right, right. So So how I experience it is when I have that capacity to to be in the metacognitive space, I'm also connected to, a yeah, let's say these are these are words, but a greater field of awareness, which which is not mine. It's it's connecting to ah much greater unbound, unlimited field of awareness, which a lot of, you know, let's say Buddhist traditions talk about, for instance, and and other many other traditions too.
Speaker: And
Speaker: And it comes that connection with that's that field, which is beyond yourself and much greater than yourself come through stillness. I think, I mean, stillness is the portal. If you become really, really still and you breathe and you're still, and you just, you know, basically empty your mind, there's still something there.
Speaker: And that's when you can get that sensation that it, not just mine, i i I seem to be sort of a ah flavor occurring in this greater field of awareness.
Speaker: And my sense of self is,
Speaker: it's it's not the end of the road, so to speak. It's something that I have constructed. um It's real, I guess, but that greater awareness is also real. So holding both is quite interesting.
Speaker: I think this might be a good moment to insert a little bit of perhaps just commentary on my side, which is aimed at bringing the listener along a little bit more, which is what is your sense of self listener?
Speaker: Like what is your sense of when you say me inside of yourself, what is that composed of? Well, for many people, oh, it's my body sensations in this moment.
Speaker: It's what I ate for breakfast. It's um what I learned from the people I trust that I believe is you know how is it the right way to do things or the wrong way to see things and all of this.
Speaker: And that what Carl and I are touching on and find so exciting in our own lives is, okay, I've got this personal sense of self and it's really important. I'm never going to throw it away, but I can evolve it. I can grow it. I can refine it.
Speaker: And it's only ah portion of what I we are. It's just a portion. it's like It's like I got lost in the glasses I was wearing. I'm not wearing any glasses, but let's just say I was wearing some glasses and they had ah a particular tint, maybe a rose or a green tint, you know, and I wear them long enough that I forget that I'm wearing them.
Speaker: And I really think the world is green.
Speaker: And the glasses are the personality that I grew up with or the belief about life and myself, my worldview. And it's the glasses I've been looking through. and I can actually lower them and get a different view.
Speaker: And I can keep the glasses. And in fact, they become more useful for certain tasks when I recognize what they're good for. And then what it would be better to use something else for in terms of looking at life and making choices for everyone involved.
Speaker: How does that hit you? think it hits me in a good way. I think it makes sound a lot of sense.
Speaker: And I also think that as we as we develop through life and as we grow through life, that that sense of self and it's connected also to our self image, you know, it's it's historically based.
Speaker: You know, everything we've been through leaves some kind of mental and and sometimes emotional traces. And suddenly we have this image of who we are.
Speaker: You know, what are we good at and what's typically us and what's impossible for us. And I'm so bad at this and so good at this or whatever. But all that is history based.
Speaker: And at this moment, this is a unique moment. I'm in a unique space in my life. I've never been here before, but my image is sort of potentially like an anchor and stretching out through history. So I think yeah just like...
Speaker: creating space and curiosity around how you see yourself and and and and creating that space by trying to connecting to to what we call awareness is so helpful because I think life can flow through you so much more freely when that image of self is held with a much more open hand than a closed hand.
Speaker: And I think that makes ah can make such a big shift. Well, so much more it becomes possible. You know, like how many people who are listening, if you really are honest with yourself, you've got some idea of a limitation, whether it's a limitation of interest or a limitation of of what you think you can physically actually do. Like I've had plenty of people I've encountered over the years who say I could never do public speaking.
Speaker: Like i can never stand on a stage and speak in front of people. Well, what is saying that a memory of the past where there was some body sensation with an internal commentary that was uncomfortable.
Speaker: yeah And then I carry that and project that onto the rest of life. But if, if you and i are actually the creative energy of life itself, temporarily taking a form,
Speaker: then there's way more possible than my memory tells me is possible. Oh yeah. ah Definitely. and And just to relate to my own experience, you know, I grew up not being so interested in these things we we speak about. I mean, I was from a young age, extremely driven and I wanted to be successful in in business life. And I went to business school and I came out of business school and started this American consultancy firm as a management consultant.
Speaker: And I just... went from one thing to another, and I reached my goals and then set another goal. And I just continued to do that. And and my self image was about this kind of driven, ambitious, high performing person with a of... So what would it be your value indicator back then? Like your sense of I'm doing it? is it Was it a bank balance?
Speaker: Was it, um you know, who you were connected with? was it, yeah you know, which consultancy contracts you could get? Like, what was the the the list of things that told you i'm doing what I set out to do?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, ah think a few, yeah, many of those things you mentioned, it was about money, it was about prestige, it was about, you know, working for for the the highest ranked company ah in my school. It was also about getting, you know, approval from others, I think, and and and that kind of confirmation. and and and But I pushed it so hard, you know, I worked 80 hours a week and I traveled around the world and ah Sorry, 80 hours a week?
Speaker: Yeah, that was a quite normal working week. and And, you know, one winter after having done this for a few years, I worked with, you know, a company that had to cut people, you know lay off people. And, know,
Speaker: And I was sitting with this Excel model working on that. And there was something shifting. Like I ah he became basically depressed and I lost my sense of meaning and I became physically ill for months.
Speaker: and i And that's the first time in my life because I had sort of gone from one thing to another. And and that was the first time I'm like, this this is life is not supposed to be like this.
Speaker: And and i in the end... How old were you? So I was about 27 maybe. um Okay. So I wasn't super old and i and and it was sort of opening... Am I super old now?
Speaker: No. But I had pushed things so hard. So I think I got this kind of midlife crisis quite early. and And I just felt I need to understand this. and i And I asked for leave of absence. I took a backpack, left my phone and computer at home. And I and i went to Asia with myself for the first time. I took a break for the first time in 10 years.
Speaker: I'm still tripping out because I read that section. I'm like, he left his phone. He left his phone and went backpacking. Like, yeah, that was, I mean, that was a big step for me to take. But I just felt I need to get away as far as possible. It came to that. And yeah because I just felt this complete emptiness in what I was doing. And And I ended up, there was, you know, ah synchronicity, I guess, that I ended up three days later after having worked like crazy. And, you know, I stayed in Brussels in this big hotel suite with three TV screens and whatever.
Speaker: and and i And I ended up three days later in Laos, which is this kind of Buddhist communist country in Southeast Asia. And I followed a guy I met on the flight who was the CEO of a company who went there once a year to reboot, as he said. And I followed him to this Buddhist monastery. And I sat there on the earth floor and and I listened to the monks singing and it was so beautiful. And I almost thought I died because this is so sweet. Like heaven? Yeah.
Speaker: And that was the starting point of a journey, a big journey in my life where I, you know, coming back to how I entered this, you know, I had to read reframe and change things.
Speaker: completely that the the image I had of myself and what was important and what was I'm supposed to contribute into this world. And it took me probably five years to really find ah more you know a stable ground.
Speaker: And I quit my job. I reeducated myself in many ways, everything from like and NLP and in Santa Cruz to personal training, which is sorry, just for everybody who doesn't know, and NLP is neuro linguistic programming. It's been around for decades. It's at the bedrock of people's work like Tony Robbins.
Speaker: And it's really if I'm understanding correctly, it's rewiring the synapses in our brain from how we make meaning of the body sensations or our experiences of life.
Speaker: with specific techniques. So go on. That's true. And that was really helpful for me at that point, you know, encountering that early. And, you know, I went into the jungles in Peru and and met shamans and I went to India and yeah I did a lot of things.
Speaker: so still let's wait Let's rewind for a second. So first thing happens, you're depressed. That wasn't like the first thing, but you grow up, you grow up, you kind of, you kind of fit in with whatever the world of ah Sweden that you were, you know, as a kid and your family and beliefs, and you're organized in such a way to prioritize high finance and good connections and working for, you know,
Speaker: a really well-lauded company. You do it, you put it in all this energy. You're just, you're really going for it. So sincere, right? And you're you're sitting there in this ivory tower, basically, hotel room, you know, the best suites in the world. And you recognize I'm living in golden handcuffs. Like they're made of gold, but I feel handcuffed to the bed in this beautiful place.
Speaker: And I'm ah miserable. And so you get on a plane with no phone and a backpack. and you end up in a monastery on a dirt floor happy as you could be yeah that's basically a good summary of it yeah yeah so but but this is the this is such a common maybe it happens uniquely for each person but like i'm following what's what i know something happens that's strong enough of an experience that so I stop.
Speaker: It's almost like stop like i'm really I'm watching, let's say I'm watching The Matrix movie, which I saw like 36 times in the movie theater. I'm watching The Matrix. I'm super caught up. There's a moment that something's about to happen and I'm on the edge of my seat and suddenly the lights come on in the theater and the movie is turned off.
Speaker: And I recognize, oh, wait a minute. I'm in a movie theater. I'm not in the movie. thanks And what we do in that moment or set of moments makes all the difference. Some of us are going to be like screaming and shouting for the theater manager to like turn the turn the movie back on. Oh my God, that was the most important moment.
Speaker: Some people are going to be like, I saw enough of the matrix. I'm ready to change my life. I'm stepping out of the theater. I'm going to into the next chapter of life. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: And, and for me, it was, it was quite scary to do that until I made the choice speaking about the choice to grow. Well, basically until I made that choice, because, you know, until I made the real choice, you know, to change my career, to change my life, there were so many doubts and there were, you know, all kinds of arguments in my mind, you know, what will people be thinking? And I'm throwing this away and, you know,
Speaker: And then, you know, I made the choice during that trip. I was i spent eight weeks in Asia and and, you know, maybe week six, I made the choice. And I'm like, and, and you know, i felt it at the core of my being being so true.
Speaker: So when I got home I had no fear. I had no, you know, I wasn't scared. And people obviously thought, you know, what has this guy been, you know, what kind of drugs has he been taking in Asia?
Speaker: yeah But it wasn't about that. um But then that's the start of it, right? So as you make the choice and then there's the searching. I mean, there's oh there's sometimes people say, I think, you know, this guy is a searcher or is searching, but with maybe not the most positive tonation, but I think it's a really positive thing.
Speaker: But the trick is to not get stuck in the searching, but but to be searching and integrating as you go. Well, and part of that, what I hear in your share is ah you say, I came home and I knew.
Speaker: right like So I've had different experiences, and I'm sure you listeners have had moments in your life where something needed to shift. and And it wasn't because the news said so or the book said so. There was just a knowing yeah that we either did or did not go along with. Either I go along with my my memory ah and my original personality structure and how my ego thinks I should be doing things, or the signal that came in or flowed through my awareness, it said, no, turn right.
Speaker: turn right. Or maybe the simple example that happens probably for people is you're using Google Maps or Waze or something to get somewhere. And the map says turn left and you're like, i no, no, I'm turning right here. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: And so that knowing, i want to I want to bring that out for people more because I feel like if we can't recognize that knowing, which feels to me like support,
Speaker: like profound support so that I don't i don't i don't shrink. I keep going forward. I think that knowing that you talk about You know, how to find it, how, ah you know, the the tricky thing that many people feel, I think, is is this is this real knowing or is it do I make this up as a knowing?
Speaker: And yeah but to me, it's quite physical, right? it's It's not, you know, it can come out as a thought, but it's it's kind of supported by your whole body and you just feel in your body.
Speaker: that it's anchored there. it's it's There is a stability there when you think about it. There could be a little bit, you know, fear too, right? But there is there is a deeper layer to it. and And the trend the challenge and is, of course, if we are continuously, you know, stressed, we, you know, we have a lot of thoughts running, and we have a lot of emotions everywhere.
Speaker: It's very hard to feel that, you know, that that layer, because it's also, it's strong, but it's subtle at the same time. you see what I mean? I do, i do. And I, you know, the episode that we just released this week, or at least at the recording, you and I are doing is this fellow Mike Chang,
Speaker: Mike Chang had the largest fitness channel in YouTube history. Then he does a psychedelic journey unexpectedly and realizes that what he was doing in this multi multi-million dollar company, they were making multi-million dollars a month, bringing in in revenue.
Speaker: needed He needed to totally pivot the company. Well, his his you know he had I think he had a board of directors at this point and like or a whole bunch of people that were you know, making decisions besides just him. And they said, we can't, this thing is doing so well, we can't stop this.
Speaker: Right. So he's like, I'm going to go, I got to go guys. I got to, I have to follow this new thing. And what I'm hearing with you and Mike and myself and so many other people is maybe the knowing that something needed to change was present for a while, but because i was so attuned to a a familiar type of noise,
Speaker: that was louder than the knowing it took going to a monastery and sitting on a dirt floor in Laos or doing a psychedelic journey when my phone is off and nobody's around some sort of a pause or some sort of a big shift and in the action so that the voice that's been trying to come and help me is actually audible.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. And, and I think one of the reasons why it's not audible, um, in the beginning, oftentimes is because we have other programs running in our minds and other voices, you know, the egoistic voice, you know, telling you, and you can come up with so many stories.
Speaker: for yourself and a part of you will come up with stories why well just ah just another year or just gonna make that kind of money and then i'm gonna retire oh i'm just gonna but this i'm just gonna it's it's i haven't seen it work a lot like it's so easy to just postpone what you what you somewhere inside feel you know it's true but you keep postponing it because probably a fear, right? Because yeah trying what is unknown or letting go of something that is successful in the outer world is, you know, it's, it's scary. It can be very scary. And, know,
Speaker: and And to protect us from that fear, our minds make may make up these stories about why, you know, why we're just going to keep going for a little bit longer, or maybe then later you can do it. and And I think when you get that pause, when you get the stillness, then and some of those voices either disappear or you see them for what they are, right?
Speaker: Well, there's fundamental lack of of experience and education growing up that most of us live with where we were not taught or shown how embedded we are with all of life and how to participate with the forces of the the incredibly unstoppable, powerful forces of creation that we can actually align with that.
Speaker: So we've got this unconscious, I think it's pre verbal. I'm curious what you think pre verbal, pre rational impulse. It's like, I've got to do what what I'm seeing other people do, or everything is going to fall apart. And I'm going to live under a bridge.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. and And as we grow through these, we talked about the the adult development stages.
Speaker: I mean, the the the former logics that we had as a child, for instance, you know, I want to I want to belong. You know, that's the most important thing, you know, what other people will think of me. So I will adapt my clothes and and, you know, my interests and other things to fit in. Of course, that program is still active in us. and But as we grow, keep adding new capacities, inner capacity to ourselves. And and and suddenly we we come to a point that where where it may you know it reaches a tipping point where we feel, well, you know it's great you know if people are happy with me. But the most important thing is that I can be true to myself.
Speaker: and And I'm willing to take the consequences of that, which are usually short term, right? Because then that life will will flow through you in a new way and you may end up even more successfully in the outer space than you were before in in some other way. But but no matter what, you you feel much better because you're coming from the inside and and then out.
Speaker: Now, you may know what my next question to you is going to be. So being true to myself, what is myself? And how do I know what's the authentic self and what's been the psychological term you know that you and I are familiar with, but it's not familiar to a lot of people, which is an introjection.
Speaker: People socially, our parents, our educators, our our city, our town, socially constructed us to to believe we are a certain way, life is a certain way,
Speaker: And so these things became introjected and became beliefs that I don't question until I do. So what is myself that I'm being true to? Because some people might say, well, I am being true to myself. I'm hustling. I'm making as much money as I can as quickly as I can, regardless of the cost. And and I'm taking care of my family.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, i think there are many levels to that. But to me, some of some of some parts of what i think is myself is as you say interjected it comes from i mean it's normal totally normal and healthy right that that's what's important to stress that you know early life is very healthy i mean we need to be functional in in a group setting we need to be functional in the family and we need to be functional society so we we we absorb or interject uh cultural programs basically uh and
Speaker: then But then at some point, We come to a point in the growth where we have to unlearn a lot. I think we have to unlearn what we've learned unconsciously and we have to consciously unlearn what we and but we learned unconsciously.
Speaker: and And I sometimes use this metaphor as the self, the read the the authentic self being like a diamond or something. You have to polish it. You have to polish away. You have to take away a lot of stuff to find the real core.
Speaker: And... and That takes, you know, all all that we talked about in the beginning the beginning, the waking up and the growing up and the cleaning up and the showing up, we can do after that. um But I think that's a good metaphor.
Speaker: Like we have that inside us. We don't really have to learn anything from the outside to find it in addition to just
Speaker: the process of openness and curiosity, ah to keep polishing it and, and trying it out. And, you know, it's, it's, ah it's ah it's really a process that can keep, you know, it take, it can take years to find, you know, you it's like layer by layer, you get closer to the core. And that's been the case in for me, for instance, you know, you, you think you have it, but then there's another layer.
Speaker: Well, you know, I'm sure there are about many things where such a discernment with physical objects really makes a difference. Like, is that real? Is that the authentic?
Speaker: Or is that a counterfeit? Like, is that a diamond or a cubic zirconium or a Swarovski crystal? You know, is it, is it a actual piece of amber or is it counterfeit? There's a whole counterfeit amber market that's selling like, you know, different forms of, of like copal or pine pitch or, you know,
Speaker: So many things. Is it real or is it counterfeit? How do we know the difference? I neglected to mention in the front of the the podcast, your book, which I'm loving and highly recommending the authentic shift, which to me is pointing at like the important, the critical importance to be able to sense what is authentic and how do I know?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And the title of the book, I mean, if if you if you would have asked me when I was 25 if I was authentic, I would have said yes. And I would have felt myself being authentic. And in a way, I also was authentic, given where I was at that point.
Speaker: But what I refer to with the title of the book, The Authentic Shift, is like a deeper level of authenticity where you really feel, well, this is this is connected in my core.
Speaker: And to get there, almost always, I think, we have to let go of a lot of stuff. We have to clean up. We have to let go of beliefs that are limiting us. Yeah.
Speaker: But then in my own experience, at least, we come to a point where our sense of values and sense of purpose, and it's it's kind of stable over time.
Speaker: You know, there could be a little bit of polishing or you can understand it a little bit different way, or it comes out because you're in a different life phase in in a different way. But there is also stability and and you feel it in yourself. You feel it in your body. You feel it, when you know, when you connect with that, that you know, you're in touch with something deeper and than you were potentially previously in your life.
Speaker: And that's a very comforting space. And I think the world is complex. The world is difficult in many ways. And the stability in this world, I think we need to find by going inside, you know, not just inside, but inside and outside. But ah because otherwise,
Speaker: so easy to, it's so easy to get lost because there's so many distractions. There's so much information there. There's, there's so many truths out there.
Speaker: and And, even in this space that you or an i are an iron, you know, you can listen to a self-improvement, you know, podcast, 24 hours per day. And you can, you know, you, there's so much stuff. so you need to find something maybe that you follow and you reflect and you connect and you integrate and, and, um,
Speaker: Because even this field that we are in can be another trap because I know people that that just you know go to one retreat after another and they don't never seem to really integrate it and you know couldn't let it sink in and and making it theirs and making you know finding their own experience it.
Speaker: It's like a contact high, like somebody just constantly is looking for an energy flavor to ah to either avoid feeling something or to get help feeling something. They don't have to have the ah skill set to to feel on their own and just kind of keep going to retreats and getting high off the teacher's energy or the group's energy.
Speaker: And then going back to the same center of gravity, the same ways of being and seeing and doing. yeah One of the things I'd love to unpack with you a little bit, and i don't know if I've done this with any guests yet,
Speaker: But when you said ah going inside, you did what many of us can do just spontaneously without thinking about it. Your fingers pointed towards the interior of your body.
Speaker: Yeah. And yet I know from being with you, just just the energy of being with you, that it's so much more than the interior of this meat suit or this you know this wetware, as John Churchill would call it, that we walk around with. like When we say inside, outside, in this context, we need to go in or inside.
Speaker: We're not referring to a direction and that can be measured with a videotape or a tape measure. like That's inside. it's it's What would you say? I know what I could say, but you know I live with me all day long.
Speaker: Well, going inside, that's a great question. Well, for me, it has two flavors and they are related. One is connecting with my heart. And you can say, well, there's a physical heart in the body. and And to me, it's more like what some people would call the heart chakra. Like for me, there's a space there. It's almost like there it's a portal to something there that takes me into that sort of field of greater awareness it's it's and and that's unlimited so there there is no limitation and this is hard to put language on because it's it's an experience right but to me the heart is is one part of this um and and i can feel when it's kind of open and fluid and and active and i can feel when there is some some some sense of constriction which means that i'm not in touch with
Speaker: that wisdom that can come through me, that's a good sign of that. But when it's open and spacious, it's like then I can get access to that kind of wisdom that seems to come from that greater field of awareness, which is beyond myself.
Speaker: I want to triple click under this this yeah this orientation that is using the what we're calling the center of the chest, the heart center, this region in the center of the chest, maybe about three to five finger widths inside that feels that feels and I'm to invite all the listeners, to just bring your awareness about three to five finger widths inside the center of your chest. And just what do you notice there?
Speaker: Do you notice anything? Does it feel like spacious? Does it feel energized? Is it tingling? Does it feel like there's tension or armor? And my experience at this point or my assertion, was just thinking about this at the gym the other day where I do a lot of my best contemplations while moving heavy weights around.
Speaker: People talk about an open, my heart is open, my heart is closed. And I call bullshit on that now, not to be mean, but like, i don't think it's ever closed. I think what it's doing is the heart center that we're pointing to is a resonator.
Speaker: Like when I want to find out if the salmon that I'm going to cook for dinner, is ready, I stick the meat thermometer in the center and it tells me about what temperature that meat is.
Speaker: So I feel like the heart center, this region is and not just the only region is letting me know how I'm orienting with reality, not whether it's open or not, but it's actually giving me direct feedback about am i in flow with all of life?
Speaker: Yeah, or am I out of flow with life? Yeah, No, i agree I agree with you. i think by going into your body and sensing into the whole body sometimes, but definitely the heart, you get so much information.
Speaker: and And I think our culture seems to be bringing us into this almost chronical head focus. We're so easy to get trapped in our heads.
Speaker: And of course, we have a brain and it can think and it can do its thing, but we're so much more than that. And it becomes becomes very limited if we don't use our full potential, which where, you know, for instance, sensing into the heart is such a powerful thing.
Speaker: Well, you're on the airplane. You're on the airplane next to the fellow. You're not yet in Laos. And something like, not your cognition, because your cognition probably would have told you, um you know what? I'm going to a resort in Chiang Mai.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And just chill out and like, you know, I've got money and I'm going to just enjoy myself and, you know, like do all sorts of fun, silly things or crazy things, but something new.
Speaker: So there was a knowing there. Now you're in... you're on the dirt floor, a dirt floor with these monks eating whatever they give you in kind of like what from Western terms would probably look like not much of a construction of a building.
Speaker: Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. So if we're operating just, you know, if I'm there with you and we're just operating from what we already know from thought, Thought's going to be like, get out of here. This is nuts.
Speaker: You're going to catch a disease or something like that. And yet you're sitting on the floor and the center of the chest is giving information that's not thought, but it's very clear and coherent.
Speaker: Yeah. I think, you yeah, that that's it. And it's it's sometimes, you know, that would be what people would call intuition, I think. You just know it. And and where does it come from? Where do you feel it? and And to me, I agree with you. I mean, it's in the body and especially around the heart.
Speaker: and Well, where does the intuition come from that tells the birds who are in a murmuration, those big groups of birds or even insects, we can see them making patterns in the sky.
Speaker: oh yeah And from what I can tell, they're not necessarily going, hey, Joe, turn left. Hey, Mary, you missed it. They just know like there's there's not this thinking layer that confuses and stops everything. you know like All the people we spoke about or I spoke about that say, oh I could never speak in public, that's a thought. like You literally have vocal cords. You literally could walk up the steps to the stage.
Speaker: and stand in front of the podium. You literally could do that and you could open your mouth and you could speak, like speaking could happen. Everything else is a thinking pattern that's falsely projecting what can and can't happen.
Speaker: Yeah. And we, I think we have so much more to discover. The other day i was sitting by a big oak tree and I was reading a book and it was really this this really big oak, you know, it's it's probably 400 years old wow and and suddenly i sat there and i i don't know how i came to think about it but i i just you know put down my book and i closed my eyes and i i i imagine i i extend my energy field to uh to enclose or to to uh wrap around the tree as well and and i just you know wanted to sense into the tree basically and
Speaker: And then I've done this many times in various circumstances. So so I let the the energy be expanded like that for a little bit. And I tried to be very sensitive to any kinds of impressions or or intuitive signals that come. and And then suddenly out of nowhere, it was not expected because I was focused on the actual tree, which I thought was sort of above ground. But then suddenly i had this...
Speaker: sense and also an image of the tree's root systems just expanding under me. keep It kept expanding and it just it was just so vast.
Speaker: And and i'm like, where did that come from? I mean, I didn't think it... It wasn't a thought. It was just there. And I just got this sense of this living, pulsating root system that was so much bigger than a tree itself.
Speaker: And who knows if I made it up or not, but I don't i didn't feel like that. And and because ah it seems like somehow I sensed into the the essence of the tree and and potentially the tree wanted to show me something, I don't know, but it was a very interesting experience.
Speaker: It's a great example because you know we're talking still about and unpacking what does it mean to to to go inside or to sense into. So at the surface, just you know visually,
Speaker: i could I could look at, okay, there's leaves, there's there' there's this color of green, and i I have a sense of the gradations of colors of green because of all the leaves I've seen before on other plants.
Speaker: And it's this large, the diameter of the tree, and oh I can see some of the roots. and That's the surface.
Speaker: that's one way of knowing about the tree, but it doesn't tell me everything about the tree and about its existence, its life force, how healthy it is.
Speaker: And then there's like maybe going deep, deep, deep to the interior is like, what is it that's moving through this tree without which it would be dried up and dead dust?
Speaker: Yeah. And then all the all the terrain in between the surface of the bark and the leaves to this animating principle same with my body or your body like there's something animating it yeah and that something is not confined by the bark of the tree the edge of my skin and so that's where I'm ah why I'm so curious about unpacking this is because
Speaker: people hear inside, I got to go inside and immediately the attention without training, like looks like what I'm going into my spleen, and going into my pancreas, like, I don't find any wisdom in it, you know, necessarily by just looking at organ structures.
Speaker: But there's this something that we call inside. And maybe we mean, can I sense more to the essential nature of something, not just its appearances,
Speaker: Yeah, maybe you also say inside because when we go so so inside in brackets, we may, you know, cut off a lot of other stimuli. Like if I, you know, hear a lot of sounds or, you know, if I keep looking around everywhere or if I just if I'm stuck in my mind with my thoughts.
Speaker: I'm not open to that capacity to sense into the essence of a tree, for instance. And I don't really sense into the tree by being inside of me, but it's it's somehow, it's like ah resonance that can occur between oneself and something else, but it requires stillness.
Speaker: And it requires some kind of, in this case, some kind of focusing or direct, you know, it's a directing of energy too, right? If I was focusing on the house where I was sitting, I wouldn't have sensed the tree. So it was also where I directed the the attention.
Speaker: So what we're pointing at, it sounds like, is that we can actually put attention in other places than what's familiar. or what's familiar to the mind or what's familiar from my history like we can actually start to know what is it like to think of the sun the sun in the sky and and so the immediate for me is like oh i've got a visual representation of having seen a sun and that arises but what if i then get curious and pivot to go what's the taste of the sun right now if it was a taste in my mouth
Speaker: yeah what's the texture if I was to palpate it as a texture, like to start exploring through the different sense capacities, imaginatively and or collectively just playfully to get a different sense. I mean, I think this is really one of the things that happens with psychedelic work, whether that psychedelic work is with a plant substance or an animal substance or breath yeah or, you know, some sort of a shift in consciousness.
Speaker: What happens is, this kind of synesthesia in a way expands this capacity expands where we start to sense with other capacities than the thinking mind and I think that's always available to us all day without having to take a substance or to fly to Laos it just so happens that those environments often give us permission to orient in ways that are not just through thought Yeah, and I think a lot of people have had these kinds of experience, maybe not that often, but, you know, you know maybe they were walking in nature at some point and they just started looking at something and just got one of these sort of unexpected experiences of something.
Speaker: Or whether it was with another person and you kind of, you just knew something and about them or like, I think, Many of us have had these experiences, but we may have you know thought of it as a coincidence, but I don't think it's a coincidence.
Speaker: It's we're we're so connected in so many ways that we don't understand. And I do believe whenever we have a thought, I think it it leaves us as well. It's a it's a signal to some degree. And I cannot sense into everybody that I meet their thoughts, but I think we don't really know. It's so subtle.
Speaker: And it's the same with emotion, you know, emotions create some kind of an electromagnetic field and we sense into each other's emotions. If we're, if we're, you know, sometimes we do it unconsciously, but we can also consciously move into a room and we just says, what has happened here? You know, if it's, if it's, you know,
Speaker: Maybe it's ah it's ah it's an emotional field of fear or anger or joy, but but it's beyond what we say verbally or what we observe visually. I think we have that capacity to sense into the field beyond us.
Speaker: And that's super exciting. and and i think not very well yet described or by by science. And I am just positive that it will happen.
Speaker: That's just my own thinking about it. But but it's subtle. Well, and we don't have to give up, and nor should we give up our ability to recognize surface appearances. Like if I'm going to, I'm imagining or remembering being in Sedona, Arizona, up in a high up cave.
Speaker: that had been in use by the Anasazi Indians who somehow disappeared off the planet and no trace and nobody knows why or how or where. But there were these there was a ladder, and ancient and like an ancient ladder, a wooden ladder.
Speaker: And it's important to me to notice if I'm going to climb up it, which I did, ah If the rung can hold me that I'm about to step on like that's more close to the surface, I don't need to necessarily sense the life force that animated the tree that they built the ladder from at that moment. At that moment, it's like, is the drawbridge down and can I drive over it?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I don't need to essentially know what quirks and atoms it was made out of. No. And yet I'm sitting with somebody who I might propose marriage to. I want to sense deeper than the color of their skin, ah the beating of their you know heart,
Speaker: and the smell of their breath before I choose marriage. Yes, yes, exactly. And I think but finding that balance of how to live, you know, in life, we have to find a balance between, you know, just going about our lives and doing and doing things as we usually do, you know, but then but not not losing or not not closing the door on on the mystery, which is we don't really understand, which is beyond that just normal way of relating to things. and I think if you if you can balance those two without getting sort of caught in the airy-fairy or not being stuck in, you know, that that view on life, that there is no mystery, there's just things that you can break down into the very, very small parts and take apart. And ah I think that's a good space to be.
Speaker: i think whenever we get rigid in any way, I think it's a big limitation for us. As a recovering economist, that's what I'm calling you. As a recovering economist, you know I recently had somebody on the show, and you might you might check that episode out with Christian Raguson, who wrote The End of Scarcity. She's also an economist.
Speaker: um We live in debt-based economies that falsely impose the idea of scarcity and poverty on many people who think, oh, I don't have anything because of my bank balance.
Speaker: And yet, these capacities, that we're talking about are available for so much more than simply focusing on having a better life with our family. That matters, that's important. But also some of us are actually here to dream into new ways of constructing systems that work better for people, environment, and collectives.
Speaker: And I'm curious about the application of this sensing into something, the interior of something, like a made up system like economies, that leads to something profoundly valuable and sustainable.
Speaker: Yeah. and i think What we need to do, I think, as a world is to, yes, we need to sense into the current system, but we also need to sense into the emerging future, right? that That what needs to emerge, because I think a lot of our structures and systems are outdated and they will not really take us to where we need to go as humanity.
Speaker: And to renew and transform, we need to sense into what is unborn, right? Like we need to sense into the future. And that's even maybe more abstract.
Speaker: But, you know, let's say I sit with the management team, which I facilitate meetings quite often, and they talk about something. And and I try to listen basically, obviously, to the words they're saying, but I also try to listen to what needs to arise here.
Speaker: What needs to come through here beyond what's being talked about? What's what's the potential here? and And and that's that's what I mean by sensing not just into what is, but also sensing into what can be or what can become.
Speaker: And that's, I think, is super important for us as a world right now. And at the highest political plane, I don't see a lot of that, but ah definitely in many places. And I think My perspective on this is that the change I believe we need need as a world will come from the grassroots, so to speak. It will come from underneath and at some point it can tip the system into something new.
Speaker: But it won't be easy. Well, none of us really knows until we're in that position. Any one of us might be the vehicle through which massive transformation of of a global system begins and grows and swells.
Speaker: It begins with us. It begins with sensing what's organizing my life and do I really still want that to be the organizing principle? There's a question I ask every guest and I'm going to bring it to you now um as we're kind of rounding out towards our time.
Speaker: Suzuki Roshi, who opened the Zen Center of San Francisco in the 60s, profound Zen master, would say death is certain, the time is not. What is the most important thing? So I ask you, and I know from all the guests I've talked to you before, saying the most important thing makes it tricky.
Speaker: So I'll just give that openness to to to be flexible with that. But like in your life, you know death is certain, the time is not. For you sitting here right where you are today, what's the most important thing? What's organizing you is the most important thing in your life.
Speaker: I think you if you'd asked me that question a few years back, I probably would have shared some kind of vision or some kind of purpose. or But as I perceive it today, what's most important for me, it's just important to live life in a conscious way where I'm open and curious to that greater field of awareness wisdom that I sense and and believe in.
Speaker: And just almost like an open channel for for life to flow through me um and not to think too much about this is exactly what I want to create or I want to be there in two years or, but I want to be a channel for whatever wants to come through from that higher creative field and be an instrument in you know manifesting that out here on this planet for a good purpose I mean that that's a long answer but that's how I kind of feel about it today and then that's quite different than it was just a number of years ago there's a lot we could unpack about that there's a lot we could unpack about that minimally
Speaker: How much of that is the desire to be in the feeling experience of that level of intimacy with that flow? How much of it is actually about creating ah thing or a structure for people? That's great question.
Speaker: That's a great question. I never really thought about that. And to me, it's both, you know, it's it's not either or, it's both. it's it's It starts with the feeling of that kind of, that space and that stillness and that clear light or awareness.
Speaker: But what comes through is equally important. And that's what I want to kind of manifest out into the outer world. So so yeah, it's both at the same time, I would say.
Speaker: It speaks to a ah living experiential relationship of I'm not just this individual. I'm also a collective. Yeah. And I care.
Speaker: i care about the whole, not just about what I can see and touch with my own five concrete senses. I care. No. Yeah. No, I do. I do care a lot. And yeah, we haven't spoken so much about it, but we've we've created...
Speaker: you know basically a center in Sweden, which where it's a retreat center where we work a lot with nature and we try to bring people out in these environments to to grow and learn and explore. And and and that's partly because we we we me and my wife, we want to to to be that you know to make that difference in in the world. And it's super important to me to be able to participate in the world. How do we find out about this? Where can people look for more information about this opportunity through your retreat center in Sweden?
Speaker: Um, so, um, some of the information is on my own website. That's KarlLindeborg.com. Karl with a C, Lindeborg.com. And then the retreat center's website is LindeBorgs.com. So Lindeborg with an S, LindeBorgs.com.
Speaker: Okay. Wonderful. I could talk to you for days and days and days and days. I hope we get to be together in person and have some laughs and explore and sit against the oak tree.
Speaker: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for being here so openly, so lovingly, so playfully exploring together the choice to grow. Well, thank you, Scott. And i so appreciated our conversation. and And also thank you for for the great work you do.
Speaker: Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel that. So we're going to do what we do, everybody. We're going to be together at the end together in stillness and silence. So if you've listened to the intro, you can return to softening the soles of your feet and the palms of your hands, like you're opening tightly closed fists with your mind.
Speaker: And let the exhales become long. And just notice whatever you notice as we be together at the end here, together, collectively, you, Carl, and i and all of life.
Speaker: Loving the episode? Click to follow, like, and share it as widely as possible. Want to go deeper with the choice to grow? Explore the show notes. You'll find links there for going deeper with our guests, as well as how to work with me in the work of waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and showing up.
Speaker: Thanks for listening. Can't wait to join you in the next episode.
