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Alex Katz, CEO of Kerberus Cyber Security: How to Stay Safe in Web3
18 Plays25 days ago
Host Jack Goodridge sits down with Alex Katz, the trailblazing CEO of Kerberus Cyber Security, for a no-holds-barred look at building a crypto security startup. From his gritty start in Argentina to bootstrapping a company in Thailand that boasts a 99.9% scam detection rate, Alex shares his unconventional path through real estate, marketing, and a bold leap into crypto.
Discover the challenges of wearing ten hats, managing startup stress, and finding product-market fit in the chaotic Web3 landscape. Packed with honest lessons on launching a company, community-building, and why mindset trumps credentials, this episode is a must-listen for anyone dreaming of making waves in Web3.
Tune in for a thrilling, no-fluff ride into the future of crypto security
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Background
00:00:02
Speaker
Alex, welcome to the show. How are you? Hey, Jack, I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. Yeah, no problems. and Alex, for people who don't know who you are, could you give us a bit of an introduction, please?
00:00:15
Speaker
Sure. So I'm Alex Katz. I'm one of the two founders and the CEO of Kerber Cybersecurity. We created the most advanced and the most proven security solution for web-free users to not get their wallets drained.
00:00:33
Speaker
I live in Thailand. I'm here for eight years already with
Career Beginnings and Transition
00:00:38
Speaker
my wife. I have three dogs, two cats, and a newborn who is eight months old.
00:00:44
Speaker
Nice, nice. Well, um yeah, I've got quite a few questions about Kerberos in just a sec. um But I'd love to understand your career journey so far. If you could talk us up to this or talk us through your journey up to this point, that'd be great.
00:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. um It will lead into how I got into Thailand. But essentially, i'm I'm originally from Argentina. In Argentina, struggled with high school, finished high school at 20 years old, pretty much. Like I repeated one year, finished late.
00:01:20
Speaker
um tried to go to university, didn't pan out. got My first job was as a quality assurance a person for a Russian company that provided services for a huge US company called TD Ameritrade.
00:01:37
Speaker
um I'm sure you know it. That was my my first job. And literally the only reason I got it was because I essentially, well, i've I had great English, great aptitude with computers because I've been a gamer all my life using computers all the time.
00:01:54
Speaker
And i when I went into the job interview, I was like completely honest and transparent about what I wanted, which is not the way you approach job interviews. I learned later. um But that's why I got hired. If I didn't get hired for that job, I would have had a call center job initially, ah like a bilingual call center.
00:02:14
Speaker
I think it was to give support to so sold cars. I don't remember. This is like 16 years ago. I don't remember. um But that that was my my first job.
00:02:27
Speaker
um Then went to study real estate. um which is my family's business. My father owns one of the largest real estate companies in Argentina.
00:02:42
Speaker
And I went through the traditional path of the sun, which is I started all the way at the bottom, did everything at the bottom and everything in the middle and until I got close to the top, not completely to the top. I didn't take over my father at all.
Life in Thailand and Crypto Journey
00:03:00
Speaker
um And the reason why is after doing the whole experience in in real estate, I realized that it was' that it didn't align with my values. um i'm a very I'm very driven towards justice, towards doing things right.
00:03:18
Speaker
And it didn't sit well with me. um And so after much the deliberation, I took a leap of faith. And i told my father that I was quitting and I was going away from Argentina um somewhere else.
00:03:34
Speaker
I tried a couple of things. I left Argentina in 2017, tried a couple of things in the US. It didn't work. um And then since it didn't work in the US and the US is very, very expensive, I was like, OK, I need to get out of here. Either I go to South America somewhere again or I go to Asia.
00:03:54
Speaker
asia And I had friends that had been in in Thailand regularly and I've seen their videos and it it looks and it looked amazing. was like, OK, I'll take a flight.
00:04:05
Speaker
it It was like 600 bucks one way from from where I was. I was in San Francisco and I took and and I went. I just went. And in Thailand, i Fell in love with the country, with the culture.
00:04:21
Speaker
And I fell in love with my wife, obviously. And decided to stay, essentially. But how how did I stay? I started doing online work.
00:04:32
Speaker
And i did I did marketing for companies that sold coaching or courses on how to make money online. So I got... by by Essentially by...
00:04:44
Speaker
putting myself out there and trying to give value to people. I found one person that appreciated it and he happened to come to Thailand as well. ah Then we met in Thailand and and he offered me a job.
00:04:58
Speaker
um That's essentially how i how I made it in Thailand initially. There was a lot of pain there that happened. it was not a pleasant situation. I did learn a lot from him.
00:05:11
Speaker
I learned a lot from him when it comes to to marketing. um But again, this other ah area of business that I was going with, which is coaching and courses on so and how to make money online, essentially, maybe 10% of people have success with it.
00:05:31
Speaker
um It just doesn't sit... it It didn't sit right with me. i needed to put money on the table for my family, for my wife, for me. um and And I was always doing my best to deliver as much value as I could to every client. right I wasn't the one selling it.
00:05:50
Speaker
But again, if if you're selling so imagine that I sold you some don't know medical product or food product that only 10% of people have success with.
00:06:01
Speaker
The rest is a complete waste. Let's imagine that even it didn't cause any health issues or anything like that, but it does nothing. yeah it It just doesn't, it didn't sit well with me.
00:06:13
Speaker
um and And then enters crypto. So in 2021, I talked to one of my good friends who has been into crypto for a long time and is even teaching crypto. And I tell him, look, I'm i'm worried about the dollar because I hear that they're going to print it like crazy.
00:06:32
Speaker
And I want to have some percentage of my net worth in crypto. what What should I buy? And he told me, buy this and buy it. That was Cardano. I bought at 0.17 cents based on his recommendation.
00:06:48
Speaker
um And that that was a trip to that I could never come back from because I bought in like January 1st of 2021. And it it was like one or two months and it was already 3, 5x what I bought. And I was like, oh my God, this this is crazy.
00:07:06
Speaker
So I started to put more and more and more until eventually I put nearly all my net worth into crypto. um I did round trip a Cardano.
00:07:19
Speaker
like It went to 3.5, I think, ah max. um And then went down to 1.5 or something and I sold. I still did very, very, very good money on it.
00:07:31
Speaker
ah Cardano also taught me a very good indicator that I'm going to use this cycle. i'll share I'll share it because I think it will be interesting. It's called the wife or the girlfriend indicator.
00:07:43
Speaker
like when When you share a position with your partner who is not involved in crypto at all and you tell them I put this amount of money and now it's worth this amount of money um and they are like, I think we should sell.
Building Kerber Cybersecurity
00:07:57
Speaker
That's time to listen to your because if I had listened to to my girlfriend the time, now my wife, um we we would have had much more on that position and on and on other positions as well.
00:08:10
Speaker
and And actually, i did listen to her very recently. I hit it off with a meme coin just by luck. Someone shielded it to me. It was s SCF, Smoking Chicken Fish.
00:08:23
Speaker
ah um I did a 100x there with very little money. So it wasn't life-changing money. But still a hundred yeah, it's still And I run it by her and she's like, yeah, I think we should sell.
00:08:36
Speaker
Great. I sold very close to the top. Very, very close to the first top. If I didn't sell there, there would be a possibility to sell again at a similar price later.
00:08:47
Speaker
But I would have to hold through so much pain. Right. but But going back, crypto was a something that I couldn't come back from.
00:09:00
Speaker
Once I learned crypto and everything about crypto, I couldn't go back. And I did very well. Not life-changing money, on but good enough money for me to be able to quit my job with a good caution and be able to look for something else that was more fulfilling to me.
00:09:21
Speaker
So in what happened there, i was i was part of Neo Tokyo, the NFT community, and I had met my current partner. His name is Danor. And we had very good vibes together. We did some some things together in Neo Tokyo. He created a developer's division and I helped him with that.
00:09:39
Speaker
I also brought him an investment proposition, investment gambling, let's call it the way it is. um and And I 5x his money without him doing anything, which for for two strangers who never met at all, you know, he sent he sent me some money and then I did what I needed to do.
00:09:59
Speaker
And then I sent him the money 5x back. That builds a lot of trust be between between two people because a lot of people would just pocket the money. But again, that's not the type of person I am. Yeah.
00:10:13
Speaker
the So he tells me, he's a cybersecurity expert, like 15 plus years of experience. I've been saying 15 years for long, but we are already three years in, so I don't know how many years it is.
00:10:28
Speaker
his His last role was head of offensive security at Salesforce. and and And at this point, it's like late 2021, early 2022. And everyone is getting drained with these drainer websites that are asking for set approval for all for the NFTs.
00:10:44
Speaker
And some of these NFTs are worth half a million dollars, things like that. And they are getting drained. And he tells me, I think I can create... an automated security solution to detect these trainer websites that requires no user knowledge or intervention.
00:11:03
Speaker
Do you want to work on it with me? And I'm like, yeah, but let's do it. The reason why is it is crypto. ah We are working in crypto, but we are not in the business of making other people speculate, meaning it's not like we're selling them something that they're going to speculate on.
00:11:23
Speaker
We are actually building something that will keep people safe. So it's a noble proposition. for Just just as as a side comment, my brother is not a huge fan of crypto. he he has like all the like He has made money in crypto with me and everything, but he doesn't believe that crypto is good in general.
00:11:43
Speaker
but even if if even Even like that, he understands that what we're doing is good because we are not we don't care how good or bad crypto is.
00:11:54
Speaker
All we care is that um some person put funds into their wallet. Those are funds that either they gambled or slash invested and and grew or funds that come from their work.
00:12:07
Speaker
And we don't want them to lose them to a hacker, essentially, a malicious actor. We don't want them to lose those funds. So because of that, I was like, yeah, this is something I want to i want to try on with, especially with someone as talented in security as my partner is, which, by the way, I've checked our competitors, LinkedIn and their founders and things.
00:12:33
Speaker
I don't think anyone is even close to him, to how good he is. There are people that are better than him. ah For example, his ex-boss. His ex-boss is like a...
00:12:45
Speaker
It's someone that hacked Facebook and called Mark Zuckerberg on the phone, like literally to to tell him about the hack. that That's like next level. There are yeah they're they're both different. But what I'm saying is I'm not saying that he's the number one in the world, but in crypto, for sure he is.
00:13:04
Speaker
And yeah, that's that's how I got to to this point. And I'm i'm assuming we'll we'll talk more about it with other questions. That's cool. that's um That's pretty varied journey to get into to security and crypto, like where you are now.
00:13:22
Speaker
Like ki QA, real estate, marketing, crypto, and now into security. yeahp Yeah, pretty varied journey. um Did you know when you started uh that you wanted to be an entrepreneur like did you always know that was the plan at some point or did you just kind of fall into thinking you know what i'm just gonna don run with this idea and launch this company so i don't consider myself an entrepreneur and even when i was working doing marketing for companies that taught people how to make money online that was the buzzwords like oh be an entrepreneur be your own boss blah blah blah but i never envisioned myself as
00:14:05
Speaker
An entrepreneur. the The way I envision myself. And the way I'm living now. Is I envision myself. As someone who. Worked on things that mattered.
00:14:17
Speaker
Like it doesn't it doesn't matter, it doesn't really matter what it is. Like you mentioned, it's it's it's odd how I got into cybersecurity, which is true. I didn't really have experience in cybersecurity.
00:14:28
Speaker
A lot of the experience that I got before was very helpful for it, but I
Daily Operations and Challenges
00:14:32
Speaker
i had zero cybersecurity experience prior to working Kerberos. um And i always i have always been a leader in in everything I did in my life, even when I wasn't a leader and someone else was the leader.
00:14:47
Speaker
it It would pain me when I saw the the the dumb things that they would do or how they would not do the the right things. And I would try to step in myself and and many times I succeeded.
00:15:00
Speaker
So I just saw myself as someone that wanted to create something of value. And I wanted to lead. That's the way I saw myself. I i never saw myself as an entrepreneur entrepreneur. And even right now, I don't see myself as an entrepreneur.
00:15:13
Speaker
I would tell you that I'm not the best at coming up with the best initial ideas of things to do. um I'm the best that when those ideas exist, such as the one that we are working on right now, which is security for users, no user knowledge or interaction, then I can spawn many, many ideas into how to grow it or how to do different things.
00:15:38
Speaker
So there's ah there's a book called Rocket Fuel, where essentially they break people into two categories, like the leading people. There's the the visionary and the other one, I don't remember the the definition.
00:15:52
Speaker
But the visionary is someone that can think for like 100 ideas and maybe 99 are trash, completely trash. But one of them is is is genius.
00:16:04
Speaker
um I'm the guy that can recognize that that's the the good idea and not the other ones, because my my partner, Denor, many times he comes to me with a lot of ideas and I tell him most of the time I'm like,
00:16:18
Speaker
Either they're really bad and it happens or I tell him it it drives us far away from what we're doing. it's not It's not a fit for what we're doing right now. And then sometimes he's like a crazy idea and I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what we need to work on.
00:16:31
Speaker
And then I take that idea and it and I explode it. So um i'm I would say I'm a side of entrepreneur entrepreneur and ah one of the sides of entrepreneur, but I'm not ah one an entrepreneur that can go out and create a new business out of nowhere.
00:16:47
Speaker
I think that's why co-founders exist though, right? I feel like you have to have a balance. So you say you're not, you don't class yourself as an entrepreneur, but I think a good project or a good business needs both.
00:16:59
Speaker
You need the visionary and then you need the person who's going to execute and ah keep the visionary on track, right? I feel like those two roles go hand in hand. I think that's what makes a good co-founder. I don't think if you had two visionaries in one business, I think you might struggle at that point. Well, maybe maybe that does exist, but I'm sure it does somewhere. But I feel like at least one of you has to have that mentality of I'm going to keep you on the on the straight and narrow. like how do you actually execute on this um this vision? but So you say you're not an entrepreneur, but
00:17:30
Speaker
It sounds like you guys have done pretty well so far ah based on on what you said before. so um we can get into that in in in just a bit, I guess. but um I'd be really interested to understand what a day in the life of the CEO and co-founder of Kerberos looks like.
00:17:49
Speaker
I can imagine it's fairly varied, but I think a lot of people would look at your position now and think, I'd love to be a CEO one day, I'd love to co-found my own business, ah without really knowing you know what a CEO does.
00:18:05
Speaker
Can you talk us through your day to day?
00:18:09
Speaker
Sure. um The first thing I do every day, and um it's something that I i wasn't like a super fan of, like people teach people that teach or or that do business talk about it and I didn't really understand it until it's needed.
00:18:28
Speaker
Finances, that's the first thing of the day. I look at all the numbers every day. that That's the most the most important thing because thats that tells me where we have to do stuff. If we have something urgent, finances is like looking at them and managing them is the first thing I do every day.
00:18:47
Speaker
um After that is checking urgent support that I have to give ah because, yeah, I'm a CEO, but we'll get there. But we are only two people in the company.
00:18:58
Speaker
So my partner, Danor, is doing the cybersecurity and the development. I'm essentially doing everything else. So I'm replying to customer emails, looking at X notifications if I have to reply to to to people. This happens throughout the day anyway.
00:19:15
Speaker
But that's that's the other thing. Then I am essentially looking at... What projects we are working on, we have we work with contractors.
00:19:26
Speaker
we We don't have full-time employees. We are hiring our first full-time employee very soon. We just got an office. That's the the the progress. Thank you. Thank you. But we have a lot of contractors. like but We have lawyers on retainer that they are doing a lot of things for us.
00:19:43
Speaker
um I don't know that every crypto company operate operates like this, but we take it very, very seriously, both because we just know it's serious, but also my father is a lawyer and I like i had to study a little bit of law when I started real estate. I understand.
00:20:02
Speaker
And and i did a lot of contracts when I was working in real estate. So I understand the the worth of of lawyers and doing things the right way. ah Right now we are undergoing...
00:20:15
Speaker
Hopefully, our last rebrand, we've we've done a lot. we've We went from ah Fiverr when we just started to a nice designer to a much better designer and now to a full-blown graphic design team that is essentially essentially what we are wanting to shift right now. is We're shifting from Kerberos, the Chrome extension company, to Kerberos, the security company because that's that's where we're going.
00:20:44
Speaker
um So, yeah, it's contractor management looking at what what they need or what I need to give them, etc. Usually I have at least one call a day. Sometimes it's many more than than one, but usually it's at least one call a day.
00:20:59
Speaker
So besides that's like all maintenance, I would say, then it's talking with Danor and seeing if he has any needs for for development because I help him with testing, which that's where my QA experience comes in handy.
00:21:17
Speaker
but But regardless, I'm the only one that can do it. So sometimes we just sit on a Discord call for two, three hours until we figure something out. And he he makes changes. I'm testing.
00:21:29
Speaker
That's the reality where we are right now. It will not be like that in the future. um We go over. We have a huge board of... features that we want to create, from more important to less important, to bugs, from more important less important. we We go over them and we decide how to prioritize.
00:21:49
Speaker
um And then it's working on growth. the The work on growth is much more of an artisanal thing in the sense that I have to think of creative things to do. And many of the times, it's not something that is like set in stone. like You know, sometimes our our users say, well, why don't you tweet more often? And I'm like, tweeting for the sake of tweeting, I personally don't feel it's the most conducive.
Philosophy on Entrepreneurship and Risk
00:22:21
Speaker
I feel that it feels forced and people realize it. But if you actually tweet interesting stuff and and growth stuff and marketing things, but... but they are either very good ideas or they are reacting to other things that are happening in the market. I think that that works much better, in in my opinion.
00:22:42
Speaker
Maybe it will change as we grow and maybe when we have a person that is fully focused on that, we'll be able to pump out better, regular content. But for now, I try to focus on quality content.
00:22:55
Speaker
um And the the most important thing I have to do, and this happens at any minute, is I have to think all the time. I have to think how we can overcome challenges, how we can create...
00:23:08
Speaker
new things, or if there is a tweak we can do to something we're we're doing that can lead to growth, in my mind, it's the most important thing ah throughout the day.
00:23:19
Speaker
um And then I have to use a lot of my time to take actions just because this is the stage of the company we're in. um And also, it's important for me to use my mind because it's very hard to draw parallels with other companies or businesses because the usual thing is, oh, this is the way things work, and this is usually done like this.
00:23:43
Speaker
But there's there's two things that make it very, very different for us. One is crypto. So crypto doesn't work the same as traditional business in Web2.
00:23:57
Speaker
and and And I am much more of a crypto native than my partner. So i've have I had to tell him that many times in the in the past until he essentially got it in his mind that you can't operate the same way you operate in crypto than you do in Web2.
00:24:14
Speaker
So, for example, in in crypto, doing traditional advertisements like yeah Google PPC or Facebook ads, It just doesn't work. it's It's not the way that that people ah consume content from from crypto.
00:24:31
Speaker
And marketing in general in crypto is is from word of mouth. It's either paid or organic. But it you do something in crypto because someone else you look up to or trust told you about it.
00:24:45
Speaker
That's essentially how it is. And yeah, that's the first thing that makes things challenging because there is no, like, well, there is some things that you can draw from.
00:24:57
Speaker
There's also a lot of things that crypto companies do, which is very artificial and very fake. And then you you see it, you see the results, and you're like, oh, great. But behind the curtain, maybe there's a lot of money involved.
00:25:12
Speaker
There's a backroom deals. It's not easy to to emulate. And the other thing is the nature of of our company, which is cybersecurity, It's not the most fun thing.
00:25:27
Speaker
that's That's the reality. it's It's quite a boring thing, I would say. So I have to think of ways to not make it boring, or there's things that work on other disciplines that just wouldn't work with us because we are very cybersecurity-focused. If we did that, it wouldn't be congruent with what we need to show the world.
00:25:50
Speaker
um And again, so that's that's why it's a lot about thinking how to create value for the company and marketing for the company that resonates with crypto and cybersecurity, which is really not...
00:26:06
Speaker
Not that simple. um And I'm also browsing X quite regularly. think I very much need it. I need to know what the pulse on the market is.
00:26:19
Speaker
I need to know what's happening around the market. um But the the only thing I'll say is that I browse X only on my phone. On desktop, I have a Chrome extension that blocks the X feed because i e and i it's a time hog.
00:26:35
Speaker
You get lost lost in crypto Twitter. Yes. But if I'm lost on the phone, it's like, oh, I'm on my phone. I'll drop it, and then I'll go on the computer. And then then in the computer, I can't i can't browse at all.
00:26:45
Speaker
i just I can look at notifications, messages, things that I need to react to. But yeah, that's that's essentially a day for me. Cool, man. That sounds... ah How you have enough hours in the day?
00:27:00
Speaker
That sounds pretty varied. I guess you're not doing all of those things every day, but um that sounds yeah that sounds pretty jam-packed. Where do you go to learn how to do all that stuff?
00:27:13
Speaker
That might quite a difficult question to answer, but is it just... you just thrown in the deep end and you just have to figure it out as a as a co-founder and you have no choice. Or I guess you have the marketing background, right? So you kind of um just understand a bit of the marketing, ah the marketing side of it. But yeah, I'd love to understand that if you have any tips of people on where they can go or is it just throw yourself in and try it?
00:27:37
Speaker
it's It's both. It's both. So I do have the marketing background. I'm good with finances in general. um I'm good with leading. I'm i'm good with understanding people.
00:27:51
Speaker
That's that's my my natural qualities. But at the end of the day, we are figuring things out all the time. And if if I had to give some advice, all I can do is trust in our capabilities.
00:28:08
Speaker
Like, I doubt them all the time. it's It's a natural human thing to doubt myself. But at the end of the day, I have to believe that, like, it's it's almost an irrational belief, but you it's a blind spot, but you need to have the blind spot.
00:28:23
Speaker
You have to believe you'll be able to figure it out. And from that belief, it opens the door to... throwing stuff at the wall, talking with with my partner until we figure it out.
00:28:35
Speaker
And um so that comes a little bit from self-esteem in general, I would say. i would say I have a healthy self-esteem. But it also comes from repetition and experience. So we are three years in right?
00:28:50
Speaker
yeah we've We've went through a lot of hardships, um especially financial hardships. We were many times on the verge of not being able to pay ourselves anything, or we were not able to pay ourselves that's nothing. And we were able to survive until we were able to make sales or raise a little bit of capital.
00:29:13
Speaker
So since we figured it out so much in the past, it's more like we know we'll figure it out. Sure. we We panic, we talk about it, but we're like, okay, we'll figure it out. We'll find the way.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah. Nice. I guess to start with then, if someone's just on that journey, just got to throw yourself in there, have the confidence that you'll figure it out and give it a try. And over time, yeah I guess it gets, I suppose you get more confident in being able to just tackle problems, right? And just having a go at trying to solve stuff.
00:29:46
Speaker
I guess to start with, you just have to get started on by the sound of it.
00:29:51
Speaker
So I'm going to get a little bit philosophical here. But remember, I told you that 10% of people succeed with make money on online courses. um I don't know what's the percentage, but the reason why that happens is because most people are not supposed to be entrepreneurs.
00:30:08
Speaker
Most people are not supposed to be able to tolerate the amount of stress and risk that being an entrepreneur or a business owner that it comes with it.
00:30:20
Speaker
But society and Instagram pushes you into thinking that you can be that. And there's a lot of people that are throwing themselves to that. And unfortunately, they're they're going to fail hard.
00:30:32
Speaker
um they don't have the they don't either they They either don't have the leadership capabilities or they've never learned to be extremely talented at one discipline.
00:30:43
Speaker
Like my partner, essentially, my partner did 95% of his life cybersecurity. That's what he does best. um So I wouldn't recommend and everyone to to to throw themselves.
00:30:59
Speaker
I would do it only if they if they really want to, but I would tell them that it's much harder than anything else. At the same time... It pains me to say that working a traditional job today carries similar risks than being an entrepreneur.
00:31:17
Speaker
um Because because inlets and things in in the past in the past, people were able to and you know get an ah way to get a job at a good company and they were able to grow in that job and stay there for 40 years. I don't know how for how how long it is, retire, and then the government would pay them a good amount because they contributed a lot of their amount. Essentially, they they they made the government the custodians of some of their money and then they were able to retire comfortably.
00:31:45
Speaker
Today, that doesn't exist. Today, pensions are stolen everywhere in the world. um my My grandma, who already passed away, was a teacher. She worked all her life as a teacher, like one of the most traditional professions and one of the most important professions in the world. And and when she retired, the money she was getting was not enough for for anyone to to survive.
00:32:11
Speaker
so We live, to unfortunately, in a society where being an employee I don't know if it's the same amount of risk than than being a business owner, but it does have a lot of risk, which also it also pushes people into job hopping.
00:32:31
Speaker
So it's much better for and anyone to change jobs after a year than to stay in the same job and get a raise, because the the swapping of jobs turns out to be more salary than staying in the same job.
00:32:44
Speaker
way more look those are the things Those are the things that I'm thinking of. um I'm thinking of those things when when we are going to build our team. ah and And we envision trying to go more the Telegram route. You know that Telegram has like nine employees or something like that.
00:33:01
Speaker
It's like a tiny team, right? um because High performing tiny team. Yeah, high-performing timing team. I don't know how it's going to work out, but these are the the challenges that are in society today. Like you you have a job, but ah then the company dies and maybe you don't even get a severance package.
00:33:23
Speaker
So not taking risks has risks. that's That's for sure. But at the same time, I think people need to be very honest to themselves.
00:33:34
Speaker
to Do they really think they can handle the stress of being a business owner? Because right now I don't have this stress, but I'm going to have it very soon. Once we hire employees, we I will have people depending on the company performance that I'm the leader of.
00:33:51
Speaker
So can can you handle that stress? Can you handle them complaining to you when something bad happens? A lot of people don't have the mental fortitude to do that. I do. My partner does.
00:34:03
Speaker
um But yeah, if you think you are resilient enough to handle a lot of stress and a lot of risk, sure, try try to launch your own business.
00:34:15
Speaker
But I'm not going to tell everyone to do it. I think most people should not do it Okay. actually uh i wonder what the percentage is of the people who ah let's say make it they live a financially comfortable life wonder what the percentage is between people who work in regular jobs and work their way up and entrepreneurs who launch a successful business i bet there's more people who make it as employees than make it as entrepreneurs and business owners right and ah that must be Yeah, and no, no.
00:34:46
Speaker
there's There's a natural answer to that. Most businesses fail. Most businesses fail. um and And that can decimate the business owners. But if you're an employee, even if the business fails, you can switch to another job as long as you're capable.
00:35:02
Speaker
so So you have much more likelihood of succeeding that way than failing with businesses. Yeah, 100%. and you mr that um But you guys had quite an unconventional journey, right, to being business owners or getting to this point so far.
Product Development and Market Growth
00:35:17
Speaker
I think you were talking to me before and you guys went through quite a lot of stress or quite a lot of long hours, putting in some big shifts and that kind of stuff, right? Could you talk us through that story a little bit? Could you share a little bit more detail on that?
00:35:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, sure. Long hours is a storm, but we would have done that under any circumstances. That's any business owner has to work long hours. That's not a big deal.
00:35:42
Speaker
But the reason why we went things about what why we weren' about things unconventionally is because we didn't follow the traditional startup path, like the ah tech startup path. Get an idea, raise money, hire a team, build your product.
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah, we we didn't do that at all. No, we didn't we didn't do that at all. And one of Danor's good friends, who I think had some exits, um right before we had our breakthrough success and everything, told him, you did everything backwards.
00:36:17
Speaker
Like literally everything backwards. And Danor was quite, um he he fell down from it. But I'm like, it's okay, it's okay. We did it our own way. We did it the way that we believe in.
00:36:29
Speaker
um I'm not sure we did it I'm not sure I would do it the same way if I could go back. But what what we did was we created a company to solve a problem.
00:36:44
Speaker
Our competitors, most of our competitors created companies to sell other companies the solution of a problem. So it it sounds similar, but it's not.
00:36:57
Speaker
For us, our our burning desire was to stop people from losing funds. So as a timeline, we started in March of 2022. Today we are the three-year mark.
00:37:12
Speaker
twenty twenty five so we are in the threeyear mark And we started and then but Danor created a MVP, Minimum Buiable Product. I looked at it. I'm like, i tested.
00:37:25
Speaker
I told him this this doesn't work at all. Goes to the trash and and start over again.
00:37:32
Speaker
From March of 2022 to July 2022, we created the first decent version of the product. The first decent version of the product.
00:37:43
Speaker
And we were able to onboard close to 1,000 Neo Tokyo citizens. They purchased a lifetime license NFT to whatever it was that we were going to do.
00:37:56
Speaker
And the reason I say that is the product that we had was very basic in that in the time. um But they they really they believed in in what we could do. So they are essentially the ones that kicktar kickstarted the product because we bootstrapped from March 2022 to July 2022.
00:38:16
Speaker
Didn't cost a lot of money, but we did bootstrap that. And that gave us a huge cash injection that allowed us to continue building. So what happened was we got all these users all the same time.
00:38:30
Speaker
And these users are much different than, I think they were it 700 users in total. um It's much different to get 700 users that paid you for a lifetime licensed NFT who are invested in your product than it is to get 700 users from the free market.
00:38:49
Speaker
Because 700 users from the free market you don't have contact with, they might not care about you. If they don't like what you do, they might uninstall you. But these people were giving us feedback on what we were doing. And what we were suffering the most from was false positives.
00:39:04
Speaker
So a little bit boring, but I'll have to explain. A false positive is when we detect the website as a scam, but it's actually not. So it's ah it's a misdetection.
00:39:17
Speaker
In crypto, it's very hard to detect a website to be legitimate because everything in crypto is spaghetti on the wall. I buy the domain today. I put some code into it. i make a basic contract and then I make the website interact with the contract and that's the project. And that spaghetti on the wall could grow into a 50 floor NFT.
00:39:45
Speaker
That's the reality. It doesn't mean that it's a scam. So it's it's very challenging to do that. And from July 2022 until January of 2023, that's when the magic happened.
00:39:59
Speaker
So we figured out a way that no one has been able to guess so far. ah it's It's funny. we We spoke with one of our competitors recently um because we wanted to acquire them.
00:40:12
Speaker
And they they essentially told us what they thought that we were doing. and we're like, no. And every competitor that thinks they know what we're doing, they have no idea. Because this is not just cybersecurity knowledge. This is cybersecurity applied to crypto.
00:40:29
Speaker
So that we we found the magic component that we still hone in now all the time that allowed us to have very low false positives. Why are false positives very important?
00:40:41
Speaker
Have you heard the the tale of the wolf, like the the kid that says, the wolf is coming? And then everyone in the village gets scared because the wolf is coming, but the wolf doesn't come.
00:40:53
Speaker
He does it a second time. They get scared. He does it a third time. They get scared. A fourth time, they already don't believe him. And then he continues to do it and they don't believe him. Now, the 10th time, when the wolf actually comes, they don't believe him and they all get eaten by the wolf.
00:41:09
Speaker
yeah So if your product has if if your security product has a lot of false positives, people are just not going to believe your alerts. And if they don't believe your alerts, they're going to lose their money.
00:41:22
Speaker
he Again, me as forget the credibility. What matters is that they're going to lose their money. And remember I told you that as I grew into crypto, I put all nearly all my networks into crypto.
00:41:35
Speaker
So I could have lost all my money to a trainer. That would have been devastating for me. um So we created this crazy version, right?
00:41:49
Speaker
And... that's That's when everything clicked and our users started to enjoy a much better experience. And I think that's what made them much more of our supporters to us.
00:42:03
Speaker
um And then essentially from March 2023 up until went through a journey september of last year of twenty twenty four we went through a journey of trying to sell more NFTs, which which didn't work, continuing to work on the product.
00:42:23
Speaker
We did um three different races in different periods of time, which kept us afloat um anti until we we hit it big because we acquired one of our competitors.
00:42:37
Speaker
So we acquired FHIR. yeah um Fire was a great team that was one of the first competitors that that came into the space.
00:42:48
Speaker
They weren't able to monetize their users. They they fell off. and And when they announced that they were shutting down, we're like, hey, let's get on a call. Let's talk. let's stop And we made them and an offer.
00:43:02
Speaker
And we know that our competitors, our main competitor and another competitor, not not not main, but they also made offers and they chose our offer.
00:43:15
Speaker
They accepted our offer. And essentially we grew from 2,500 users to users in in one acquisition and one of us is big ah a big leap Yeah, and and the reason why we weren't able to grow that much before is because we were ah paid solution.
00:43:38
Speaker
So our our competitors, they all launched free solutions. Most of them died in the process because you can't have a free security product. You can't. there There is no free security product. Let's start there.
00:43:51
Speaker
Even the free security products, they are selling something of yours in order to make money. So there was the possibility of selling data, but we are very much against that.
00:44:04
Speaker
We don't feel that it goes it goes with the ethos of crypto. um So even though crypto is transparent and people can see wallet activity, there are extensions that can link your wallet activity to your Facebook activity, to your Google searches.
00:44:23
Speaker
they have They are collecting all that information and potentially selling we we We didn't want to do that. We wanted to do a simple exchange of value where the user pays something and we give something back.
00:44:37
Speaker
The problem is that crypto users don't pay for things that they cannot gain access on. So if I ask the crypto user to pay $100, they will not pay for it because I can't put i can't potentially turn it into $1,000 or $10,000.
00:44:56
Speaker
um That's what we were that's where we were trying to do. um And when we acquired Fire, we also a got a partnership with a company called Fairside, who essentially provide coverage in case we don't detect the scam site.
00:45:15
Speaker
So... ah Right now... Like an insurance insurance company. are they It's not insurance. um in order In order to provide insurance, there are a lot of legal requirements. It's coverage.
00:45:27
Speaker
It's not insurance. For two plus years now, since sinces we launched that stable version in January of 2023, we have zero user losses, meaning that we have always detected websites that our our users have gone into.
00:45:43
Speaker
This is why we claim a 99.9% detection rate. I'm the one that tests the most. I have found holes with my extensive testing because usually users find one scam site.
00:45:56
Speaker
They're not hunting like me. and we have done improvements. um um I'm telling you right now, it's not a flawless product with no holds. They exist, but they are so tiny that even if we had a user loss, it would be one in way too many.
00:46:16
Speaker
But as I was mentioning, we struck we we had got a partnership with Fairside who provide coverage up to $30,000 losses in case we don't detect something. So between our crazy detection rate, which is proven by two years of no one losing anything, and you won't find a single comment in Twitter talking about it because it didn't happen.
00:46:38
Speaker
If it did happen, they would they would reach out to us. And I also would have seen it in our database that that we that that happened. Combined with the coverage, essentially we bring 100% protection up
00:46:52
Speaker
protection up to thirty k and which but which by the way, based on my analysis on on security reports of other companies and also our own analysis, basic users lose 2k on a loss on average.
00:47:12
Speaker
More advanced ofph sophisticated users lose 10k on average. 30k losses are very rare. Very rare. Very rare.
00:47:23
Speaker
So In exchange for what we're offering, which is all the security that we already created, which is amazing, plus the coverage, we charge a very small fee when users do DEX transactions on some swaps.
00:47:39
Speaker
So some users are paying us $0.1 a month, something like that. and And that puts them on on our crazy security and coverage.
00:47:51
Speaker
um Is that how you got the 50,000 users that you acquired to like come across and actually start using the tool?
00:48:03
Speaker
No, no. So so we we acquired the company Fire and their extension and we overloaded their extension with our extension. So when when they when the user updated from FHIR into Carveros Sentinel-3, they got a pop-up explaining them that FHIR was acquired and what were the changes that happened.
00:48:26
Speaker
Nice. And then, ah so when they were working with Fire, when the user was using Fire, was that a free product? I don't know too much about Fire.
00:48:37
Speaker
It was a free product rooted all around transaction translation, um which is essentially telling you if you go to Uniswap and you swap one USD for 100 tokens of something,
00:48:49
Speaker
um the the website The fire would tell you, you are swapping one USD and you're getting 100 tokens in return. this This was helpful with drainers where you were giving approvals to your NFTs when you thought you were claiming an airdrop.
00:49:06
Speaker
So if you were if you were smart enough and you're and you were awake enough, you would be able to stop the transaction. The problem with transaction translation, which is something that...
00:49:21
Speaker
Two other competitors were selling. One one was selling before. The other copied the first one. up It is not security. Transaction translation is in information.
00:49:33
Speaker
It's information that should be in every wallet and that is starting to be in every wallet. Phantom has transaction translation for a long time. Rabi, or Rabi, I don't know how to say it, has transaction translation for a long time.
00:49:45
Speaker
Metamask implemented it recently and they are improving it today. Sure, it it should be there. If it's a common transaction that wallets know how to interpret it, they should show the user that transaction.
00:49:58
Speaker
The problem with these extensions, some of them still exist, is that they create a psychological pattern in the user that at the time of the of the of the of the drain...
00:50:11
Speaker
It's very hard to turn off because think about it. Every time you go into a website, before you get the wallet pop-up, the traditional wallet, you're used to clicking swap or mint, and then your wallet comes up, you click confirm, and you get your result.
00:50:25
Speaker
Now, with these extensions, before that, you get another pop-up, which explains to you what's what's going to happen. You click continue, then you get the wallet pop-up, and then you click, and then you get your desired result.
00:50:39
Speaker
This becomes at a psychological loop where every time you go, I click the button on the website, the extension pops up, I click confirm, ah madam the wallet pops up, I click confirm. You just take it through it, right?
00:50:53
Speaker
Yes, and we know people that have gotten drained even with the appropriate warnings because they are in that loop. Because there is no... i don't know Sorry?
00:51:05
Speaker
Like autopilot mode almost. Yes. Autopilot mode. So what we do differently is every time you go into a website and you try to do a web reaction, we will scan.
00:51:18
Speaker
That's the pattern that we are installing you, that we are scanning and checking for you. And if we don't find anything, your wallet pops up. That's the traditional pattern.
00:51:28
Speaker
When we detect something, your wallet doesn't pop up and we put a big pop-up in the middle of your screen. Telling you, hey, something we are detecting is off. it if Either you should stop.
00:51:42
Speaker
And if you can if you want, you can come and contact us and we'll look into it for you. ah So that fire was doing transaction translation, purely purely transaction translation.
00:51:53
Speaker
um We were doing security. we We were the pretty much the only one doing security.
Business Strategy and Industry Trust Issues
00:52:02
Speaker
yeah let me question but But your question was about the journey.
00:52:05
Speaker
So we acquired FHIR, launched FHIR, great success. And then two, three weeks ago, three weeks ago now, we launched the first Solana protection of any extension.
00:52:23
Speaker
So... The way that we build security features is we hear what our users are losing. If our users are losing something and we think we can create something, we'll create it. For example, address poisoning.
00:52:36
Speaker
Do you know what address poisoning is? I don't. So if you send 10,000 USDC to someone in with your wallet, the Blockchain Explorer will reflect that.
00:52:48
Speaker
Then a malicious actor will come and He will create a similar transaction where you send 10,000 USD, but it's not the USDC or T coin that you used, to a very similar wallet that has the same beginning and the same end, but different middle characters.
00:53:05
Speaker
This is possible to generate. The goal of the scammer is for you to click copy on the last transaction that is actually not you so that when you send money again, but it's not, you send it to the scammer. I've seen that pop up my wallets and stuff before, to be fair.
00:53:25
Speaker
like When I'm sending transactions, you'll see then just a random transaction just come in or they'll deposit something into your account, right? And in the hope that you just go, history, send, done.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah. So so we we had a user that lost $10,000. So he came to us and we explained to him, look, we are not covering this. um So what we what we did was we developed an address poisoning engine.
00:53:50
Speaker
which is if you copy, so since we know your wallet because you are transacting with it, with with us, with the extension, if you copy an address that is similar to the last few addresses that you actually sent funds to, we will actually show you a big warning on your screen. And if you click it, you'll be able to see the differences in the number in the in the characters for you to understand that you actually were actually copying the wrong address.
00:54:14
Speaker
So when our users lose funds, we create security for it. The other place where people are using security Solana ah security, losing funds.
00:54:26
Speaker
They are going into Solana websites and they're getting drained because the only security that exists on Solana is purely from the wallets. So phantom Phantom has Blowfish, Backpack has Blockade.
00:54:39
Speaker
That's the only security. But those two companies are B2B companies. They are not companies focused on providing the best security. They're focused on selling to other companies, whereas we are we are looking into how we can get the highest detection rate, the lowest positive false positive rate.
00:54:56
Speaker
So what do we do? We created the first Solana Protection. it's It's going insane. We are detecting nearly every scam site, even though it's in beta. So we we are not claiming the same level of accuracy as what we did with EVM.
00:55:11
Speaker
um It's in beta, but we detecting everything so far. um And that that position does Much higher than everyone else because we have the highest coverage, the highest detection rate proven, the most amount of chains.
00:55:26
Speaker
That's from before because we are the only ones that cover every EVM chain out of the box, meaning it doesn't matter that it doesn't exist. The moment it exists, we're covering it. And we now cover Solana as well.
00:55:37
Speaker
So the the unconventional journey came from two people creating security despite... the lack of support from ah VCs, from companies, because they are like, I don't see the shiny object that I want to see. I don't see the stellar team that I want to see. And also you launched before raising, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:56:00
Speaker
We still overcome, and overcame everything. And we got to this point now where we are ah more than profitable company. about to make our first hire from revenue, not from raising what what I would ah say. it's like It's almost like daddy's money.
00:56:19
Speaker
Like, okay, you raised amazing, but you you got money from daddy. you You have a daddy that gave you the money. um I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. There's many companies that succeeded with that. But what we're doing now with actual revenue after three years, I think yeah deserves much more praise than than getting it from raising.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's cool. Have you got a um got a tracker anywhere showing how much ah like how much ah crypto you've been able to save through like transactions that you've been able to block or stop or anything like that?
00:56:51
Speaker
no No, no one really has that. um We're going to have some some stats on on our website that we'll will analyze and try to be ah as accurate as possible. But everyone puts whatever they they can put that makes them look great. Let's let's face it.
00:57:07
Speaker
there' there's there's There's so much volume happening that there's very it's very hard to be accurate. Fair enough. It'd be quite cool if there was just a rolling roll in tracker. So every time you went on the website, you could just see it updating, like how much how much funds you've actually been able to save.
00:57:22
Speaker
Yeah, I actually, pitched that to to my partner. It's something I want to do eventually, but we we we would need to build tech specifically to track that. It's it's tech for marketing rather than protecting.
00:57:37
Speaker
And since we are a two-man team, we can't prioritize that tech for marketing because it it will not have high impact in revenue to to develop that. yeah So we we continue building tech for security. Once we grow more and when we have more hands, we'll be able to create those kinds of features.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And you're doing about six people's jobs at the moment. So ah you definitely don't have time to do it. we're We're both doing six people's jobs. Let's let's put it that way. Like ah we're both doing everything together.
00:58:11
Speaker
Every day we are like, oh, we need to do this. Oh, we need to do this. And we need to do this. And we're like, okay, maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow. It's prioriti prioritizing all the time. Yeah. on the um On the fundraising, as you mentioned there, that you guys have got to this point, ah you've got revenue generating business, you've got ah Tons of users. I think that then puts you in a much stronger position, right? To go and raise funds like you can then get much more favorable terms for yourselves just purely for the fact that you don't necessarily need investors. You can you can probably grow quite quite organically if you really want to super like scale super super quickly and that kind of stuff then then obviously you can go for for investment but it put you in such a strong position when you go to investors.
00:58:55
Speaker
to say, look, this the revenue we generated. This is what we built. It's such a good position to be in. 100%. You got it right. Hard to do that. You need to have, obviously, back yourself and have a bit of backing, a bit of cash in the bank, I would imagine. As you said, like you made a bit of cash from crypto to support yourself for a while.
00:59:14
Speaker
that No, no. um That's gone. That was gone in the first year. i used it all while building the company. Yeah. That's it, right? So like you have to yeah you have to be able to have something to keep you going to be able to put all your time into trying to build a company. It's much easier said than done that because it's it's hard to get that amount cash behind you to be able to live comfortably whilst focusing full time on on something, right?
00:59:40
Speaker
Yeah, well, well that that that's what I meant with the risk of starting your company, right? So we've had the beginning period with no money, then We paid ourselves some very symbolic salary of $1,000 a month. like That's it, like a little bit from from what we what we made.
01:00:02
Speaker
um And then we paid ourselves small salary to survive. Then we were not able to pay ourselves a salary. And now we're able to pay ourselves the salary we need to to to live a normal life and to be able to focus on our job.
01:00:17
Speaker
ah But most people will will not be able to deal with that stress. that that's why That's what I mean, it's not for everyone. Yeah, ah yeah no you're right. i mean That's kind of why. So when i when I launched Unveil back in ah September 2022, think I saved up enough cash for my girlfriend and I to ah come out to Thailand. So I'm in Thailand at the moment as well.
01:00:45
Speaker
um We do the whole like digital nomad thing now, but to start with, we were thinking, right, like where can we go? Because I was living in central London. and we're both living to central London, we were thinking, well, I can't launch a business and carry on paying all this money for rent and and London, you just step out the door and you seem to spend cash somehow.
01:01:04
Speaker
ah So I thought, right, I've got ah X-Man. I think I started with 15,000 pounds ah to my name. That was all I had at the time. And that was to get everything up and off the ground. That was like business expenses, which are over like over a grand a month for business expenses, that's to pay for both of us to live whilst I got the business up and off the ground basically.
01:01:29
Speaker
So it was sink or swim and you go, right, well, this money's going to run out in four months probably. If we're in Thailand, it might last four five months. If we're in London, that doesn't last very long at all.
01:01:42
Speaker
um So yeah, you have to, you have to make it work. But yeah, the stress when you when you see your bank account coming down like this and you're like, I kind of need to make some revenue now. like I need to be able to pay my rent next month. Like what's going on? Like that's a different level of stress that you just don't, ah yeah, you don't really appreciate or you don't really realize, I guess, until you're kind of in it.
01:02:06
Speaker
um Yeah, it's fun though. It's a fun journey. what We're looking back on it now. It's fun. But I guess at the time it wasn't so fun. but but yeah Exactly, exactly. It's it's very easy to to say it's fun once you came over the other side. like Like you were swimming in the river, you didn't know if you were going drown.
01:02:26
Speaker
And then when you came on the other side, oh, that was fun. But you could have drowned there. So let's not glorify it. No, no, 100%. Were there any um any particular challenges that ah surprised you throughout the journey?
01:02:43
Speaker
um I would say that crypto in general surprised me a lot. Like you you hear you hear that a lot of things in crypto are very non-legitimate, let's say.
01:02:55
Speaker
But as you start working in crypto and as you start connecting to other people in crypto and as you start understanding what these people are doing, it's like, oh my God, it's it's deeper than I thought.
01:03:06
Speaker
And it's very hard to find ah partners in crypto that are true to what they say, that like they they will tell you, yes, I can do 100.
01:03:21
Speaker
But in reality, they can do five. um and and and And maybe you you engage you invest time in them. Let's say it's not money, but you invest time in them.
01:03:32
Speaker
And when when the time comes, it's like their return is very low compared to what they promised. um So and even among Big names, big companies, they they project a lot, but there is nothing of substance behind.
01:03:51
Speaker
And and and that's that's, I think, one of the challenges for crypto in general, like why we are not growing. It's because there's a ton of air, a ton of air.
01:04:03
Speaker
um In Web2 or in traditional companies, you can't really do that. There's going to be some companies that do that. Some MLMs, for example, that that do it and things like that.
01:04:16
Speaker
Some companies that fail, but...
01:04:20
Speaker
The Web3 in crypto is the only place where people that are great at manipulating people are able to come and and extract a ton of cash and maybe use that cash over a long period of time to do nothing.
01:04:35
Speaker
So they wasted people the people's money and time, and they didn't deliver anything in return. And maybe they also took down competitors ah with with the amount of cash that they collected.
01:04:49
Speaker
that could have provided value. So this is what I think the the challenge that surprised me the most. I think we are we're through it. But be being in crypto is a it's an interesting thing.
01:05:04
Speaker
let's Let's put it that way. you have um Do you have any advice for people who might be stepping into crypto? Web3 or crypto for the first time, but if they're looking to build a career here for themselves or something, like is there anything you really want them to be aware of or any advice you can share for them?
01:05:22
Speaker
In Spanish, we have a saying ah which is translated would be like put on the T-shirt like of the of the company. Like that's something that companies try.
01:05:33
Speaker
they They want you to do. to feel like you're part of the company. I would say that in general, i that's not a philosophy I believe in, even even with the people that are going to join my company.
01:05:46
Speaker
like I want them to wear the T-shirt if they really believe in in our mission, but I'm okay if they don't ah put on the T-shirt. I'm okay if they deliver the value they need to deliver.
01:05:57
Speaker
But in general, like I mentioned, in crypto, there's so much air. don't get committed with a project and the promises of a project and like they they tell you, oh yes, the pay like this, but once we reach that, then your pay is going to go up. i would I would tell them, be realistic to whatever it is that you're getting and don't marry a company because they are going to sell you the world because that's that's what works best in crypto, you know? It's...
01:06:31
Speaker
there's there's option here one One of the biggest NFT projects on Solana is pure air. and and And it's been through very highs and people could have made lot of money. And now a lot of lows. And now the founder even said, I'm not going to do what I did back back then again anymore.
01:06:52
Speaker
almost like abandoning the project. It's quite obvious who I'm talking about. But what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter who sells you the vision. like they They might have ah crazy traction, crazy optics, crazy community behind them, and they might still be not legitimate.
01:07:10
Speaker
So just cover your own ass. thats That's all i'm saying. If you want to work in crypto, work in crypto. I hope you get whatever is the best you can get. but understand that you have to put yourself above whatever company you're working Otherwise, it's very likely you're going to get burned.
01:07:30
Speaker
There's going to be some people that are going to, that maybe they watch this and in three years they're like, no, I believed in my company. Now i'm doing great. Yes, of course they, you, some people are going to succeed, but um until we have,
01:07:44
Speaker
more prosecution in crypto this will continue happening so this happens with like legitimate companies it happens with scammers uh it happens like it happens with everyone right now the sec backed off from Mostly legitimate companies.
01:08:03
Speaker
Great, great. That's that's amazing. Go after all the projects of people that have raised hundreds of thousands or millions of money in NFTs, in tokens, and have abandoned them.
01:08:14
Speaker
And essentially tell them, you have to either give the money back or you have to prove how you use it in the company until until we don't have... The the reason why people... don't do certain crimes is because they fear the consequences.
01:08:28
Speaker
Obviously, the more skilled the criminal is, the less fear he's going to have. But in general, it's like that. In crypto, since everything is so anonymous and since no one is really tracking you, everyone is doing whatever they want.
01:08:42
Speaker
And that ranges from little criminals that these are the ones that we want to stop to seemingly honest project founders. Until we have, like, it's fine for crypto to be permissionless and for everyone to be able to do whatever they want.
01:08:56
Speaker
But if you did something, then you have to be responsible for it. And someone has to make you responsible for it. um Until that happens, I don't think we'll have mass adoption.
01:09:09
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I think as well, like when you're talking about um someone who is joining the industry, you have to look after yourself. It's kind of similar when, when you see companies, you say, ah join us. We're like a family ah in this business, that kind of thing. Right.
01:09:27
Speaker
I get it. And I get the culture that they're trying to portray, but as soon as the company is not doing well and they need to make people redundant, you not really a family then when they're going, oh yeah, sorry, actually, it's your role that's been cut and that kind of stuff, right? So, you do, you do have to look out for yourself. You're completely right.
01:09:45
Speaker
um Yeah, I don't know. You can be invested in a company, right? And like, you can really feel passionate about their mission and that kind of stuff, but not to the point where it almost blinds you from what's actually happening or what's going on or yeah the state that the project might be in or anything like that, right?
01:10:06
Speaker
Yeah, so the way that we run Kerberos, we have very loyal users, very loyal users, is that we don't over promise.
01:10:18
Speaker
we said We actually under promise. and over-deliver, which is a common thing to say, but we've done that for three years. the The people that that are that are following us and supporting us, they know the way that we operate.
01:10:33
Speaker
um And the way I want to to run the company, once we have and employees and then full-time people working with us on our vision, is that I want them to be passionate about protecting people and that their work is I come into work at Kerberos and what I'm working on helps people not lose money and helps them not have troubles in their life.
01:10:58
Speaker
ah to not do not and They can range from minimal things to huge things. I want them to be driven by that. um And I don't want them to feel, oh, yes, it's my it's my family.
01:11:12
Speaker
It's my home. Here's the thing, right? here here's the thing right If you start dating a girl or a guy, um you don't tell them, we are family.
01:11:25
Speaker
We are family. You start dating, right? You start having experiences, you get together more, and and essentially you build that trust and that relationship until the point where both of you start to feel like a family.
01:11:42
Speaker
But that could take, should take years. It shouldn't be a fast thing. So if we have employees that have been working with us for one, two, three years, and they've seen the way that we do things and how we deliver and how we grow and how our users are protected and how we are revolutionizing crypto with our security.
01:12:02
Speaker
And then they feel like they are in a family because they're they're also the culture in the company is good and they get along with our people. That's great. like But it has to come from them.
01:12:13
Speaker
i don't want it to come from us to tell them, but we are a family, you know? And then, you know, something happens, you know, we never know what can happen in business. We have to do layovers and then, but we were a family. Oh, sorry, bro. It's just business.
01:12:29
Speaker
i I hate to do things in a way where it's going to be incongruent in the future. and And that would be to tell people that we are a family.
01:12:40
Speaker
Yeah. No, it's completely, I think it's the right way to do it for sure. um So what does the future hold then for you and Kerbereth?
01:12:54
Speaker
I will tell you that the immediate future, i hope, and the long-term future. um The immediate future is we need to tackle what we are handling the most with people losing funds right now.
01:13:09
Speaker
So I'm seeing it on on egg the the X timeline. I'm seeing it on our Discord. just yeah this This morning I had someone coming in to to ah to ask advice.
01:13:22
Speaker
It's malware or viruses that people are downloading on their devices, which is stealing their private keys or their seed phrases. This is, in my opinion now, the the biggest thing that's happening that there is no protection from besides hardware wallets.
01:13:39
Speaker
um Because but besides us, there's other companies that are providing security for transactions, let's say, from web-free transactions or transactions in general. But traditional antiviruses, they are not detecting these specifically designed viruses. Because think about it.
01:13:59
Speaker
Norton antivirus, let's say. What percentage of Norton antivirus clients are crypto users? 0.0001. I don't know. it's It's a very, very small amount. So they have no incentive into like they're not thinking, oh, by the way, the crypto people are losing funds to to viruses. Maybe we should create but we should look into them and improve our software.
01:14:22
Speaker
They
Future Vision and Advice
01:14:23
Speaker
don't care. there It has no impact on their software now. um So the the best solution, by the way, to this, and it's something that anyone listening to this should take, is to store your valuables on hardware wallets.
01:14:37
Speaker
Hardware wallets are what protects you from this. I'm not going to go. I could talk much longer about hardware wallets, but the protection to viruses on your device is hardware wallets because the hardware wallet holds the private key of of your that your private key and it it's It has built-in protection so that even if a virus comes in, it's there's no way to take it out of it.
01:15:02
Speaker
If there was a way for that, we would be in in so much pain right now. But so far, there is no pain. But what we want to develop next is the first crypto antivirus. It's going to be an app on your computer, not a Chrome extension, um solely dedicated to guard your private keys or receipt phrases.
01:15:22
Speaker
That's the... I'd use that. I'd download that straight away. I think anyone should. CVs and portfolios and this kind of stuff have to load to look at. Yeah, and it can be any file.
01:15:35
Speaker
The most notable things for people out there that are listening are ah video call softwares, like companies that want to ah give you a job or interview you for a magazine or whatever, and then they tell you, oh, download this file to join the call.
01:15:51
Speaker
Look, if it's not the traditional, the ones that you normally use, Zoom, Google Meet, if it's not along those lines, usually it's a drainer to your to your for your hot wallet.
01:16:02
Speaker
The other one is Crypto Games, which a lot of people download because they invest in crypto gaming, they want to try the game, and they download the game, and and that happens.
01:16:13
Speaker
But it could be a PDF. There could be... ah future vulnerability in PDFs, ah that's called the zero day, that no one knows, where you open the PDF and run some code on your computer and your private keys or seed phrases are stolen.
01:16:29
Speaker
So mile your your hot wallets are not safe. ah Even if we release the antivirus, I would still urge people to use hardware wallets. I would want them to use the antivirus, the hardware wallet, and and that's that's the protection.
01:16:44
Speaker
And then if it fails, sure, you lose what's on your hot wallet. But in my case, i have in my my heart my hot wallet has what I'm willing to lose. It has $500. five hundred dollars I'm okay losing that.
01:16:57
Speaker
but Whatever number it is for you, that's what your hot wallet should have. um And you know if your hot wallet, you make an investment, it goes up in price, move it into your hardware wallet immediately.
01:17:08
Speaker
But even those $500 are worth protecting in my case. And that's the crypto antivirus. That's the the short term. The long term is we need to we need to create all the security layers for crypto.
01:17:22
Speaker
um We believe that the security layers that are being created are... not good enough, they require a lot of user intervention or knowledge.
01:17:33
Speaker
And the way that we envision the security layers is that they are all fully automat automatic. there There is nothing the user has to do. So as we grow the team and and we have even sub-teams of developers, we'll start creating more security layers.
01:17:49
Speaker
And the goal of these security layers is to keep people's crypto safe.
01:17:56
Speaker
I want them to lose it by investing in a coin and it goes down. That I can't... i can like Besides Rockpools... Rockpools is something we want to help also in the future, but...
01:18:10
Speaker
You know, if if you invested at the top and you it went down, okay, I'm sorry, that's part of the game. But I don't want your your crypto to be taken from you. i don't I don't want you to send it to the wrong place because you were socially engineered or or or something ah so that it goes to wrong place.
01:18:29
Speaker
that's the That's the North Star from the company. And that's what we'll do. Great mission. Great mission. um But um yeah, I'll definitely be downloading the antivirus software when you ah you get it, ah when you release it 100%. gonna look at the the extension now, actually, for the for my wallets and stuff. um but um But no, I think, yeah, as you guys grow, I guess the i guess the idea would be ah what to then to work directly with protocols so they just build it into their
01:19:02
Speaker
projects maybe or will it always be a you know a separate thing that a user would download onto their particular uh device well the the antivirus has to be on their device there's there's no no way to integrate it anywhere the only way it could be integrated is if it gets integrated into the operating system by default like imagine that microsoft or apple integrates that technology or that antivirus by default but We are far from that, but that's the only way for the antivirus itself.
01:19:35
Speaker
ah for For the security that we have that comes from our Chrome extension, that can be integrated directly into wallets. So we are building the infrastructure to be able to support it.
01:19:47
Speaker
And then you will just use X wallet, and not from Twitter. I'm just saying random wallet. um I say that because i don't know what's coming from Twitter. I think they are going deep into crypto in the future.
01:20:01
Speaker
That's my my hunch. um you can use any wallet or a so specific wallet and corberos protection will be built in ah probably with coverage as well so you know that when you are used when you're transacting you're free you have the best protection and even if the best protection fails there's coverage to to save you yeah nice that shows my uh how naive i am when it comes to security if i think that you can install it into people's ah protocols and it will help me on my device.
01:20:32
Speaker
It shows how little I know about security. um you're You're not supposed to know about security. that's um that's That's the key thing. So it's um it's a bit of a contradiction in crypto.
01:20:46
Speaker
know It says, ah don't trust, verify. Right? um which is true because you are the the owner of your crypto when you're using a non-custardial wallet.
01:20:57
Speaker
And if you if you don't verify, you can make mistakes, even accidental mistakes. I'm talking about not necessarily something initiated by criminals. so um So yes, you you should verify. I'm not going against that.
01:21:11
Speaker
But if you also have to do every layer of security yourself, it's not something, it's unreasonable. ah Both because a lot of people don't have the time to do it.
01:21:26
Speaker
they They just need to be able to to do it with speed. And a lot of people are just incapable of doing it. Like, I'm going to sound like an asshole, but there's people with lower IQs that are just not able to to figure figure out the security. And they shouldn't have to figure out the security.
01:21:42
Speaker
It should be fully baked in the way that your credit card works. Right. So credit cards are used for all peoples from all like IQ ranges. Right. um If something happens, if your card gets skimmed either online or physically, you contact your card, they charge back the transaction, they take down your card, they issue you a new card, nothing happened.
01:22:05
Speaker
So that's how crypto needs to be. It's more challenging because it's decentralized, but we have to go to that direction. That's cool. Well, um, well, it says there's one, uh, question I'd like to ask everyone just to finish up.
01:22:22
Speaker
Um, you shared, uh, some great, uh, great stuff about your, about your journey today. Um, share some brilliant advice. Knowing what you know now about technology, leadership, entrepreneurship, security.
01:22:38
Speaker
If you could go back, what advice would you have for your younger self?
01:22:45
Speaker
ah it's ah It's a tough question. um
01:22:51
Speaker
It would be a mix of a lot of the things that I've already said in in this call, all these things that I've discovered. But at the same time, if I didn't go through the experience of learning them and stepping into them and losing from them and making mistakes, I don't know if I would trust it that much.
01:23:13
Speaker
um There's a lot that comes with you actually doing it. And if if I could tell myself anything, would be maybe it would be do more things and and fail more because that's what builds your your your your expertise.
01:23:32
Speaker
your resilience, and it also broadens your or your horizons. Because if you close some doors because you realize that some things don't work, then you're going to look for other doors.
01:23:43
Speaker
And maybe those doors are the right ones. It's just a matter of action. There's a lot of people that are trying to be you know entrepreneurs or starting a a business. They are very stuck in their heads.
01:23:55
Speaker
And at the end of the day, you just have to go for it and figure it out. um the The recipe is not out there. It's not like you're going to stumble into the perfect recipe and everything will work out.
01:24:07
Speaker
It's something that you'll craft along the way. I think that's that's what I would tell myself. I like that. Yeah, that's good advice. That's good advice. Well, Alex, thank you very much for taking the time to have a conversation to today.
01:24:20
Speaker
I've learned a lot. I need to go and download the Chrome extension ASAP and make sure I'm um'm secure. um but um But if people want to learn a little bit more about about you, about Kubrus, I guess in Twitter is the best place to hit you guys up.
01:24:38
Speaker
So our Twitter is Kerberus, K-E-R-B-E-R-U-S.
01:24:44
Speaker
If you go to the highlights on Twitter, um I curate them. I'm the one managing it. I think it has the most information you can get from us. It has our recaps from 2024, from 2023. Our major announcements are all there.
01:24:57
Speaker
Also, you have obviously our website, Kerberos.com. um it have You also have our docs that you can find on our website. They're docs.kerberos.com. ah Those docs, most people don't read them, but I wrote extensively about our vision for security and why a lot of the security things such as transaction translation out there are not ah security and will not help people.
01:25:23
Speaker
if If you are interested in learning a lot a little bit about how we perceive things besides this podcast, there's a lot written there. So between Twitter, website, and docs of of our website,
01:25:36
Speaker
That's the most you can learn. But again, this is just if you are interested in learning. In reality, you need to install our extension, and we do all the heavy lifting for you.
01:25:48
Speaker
that's That's how it works. And follow us on Twitter. The moment we release antivirus, you'll know. And and and we we are the company that that is that came two to provide security for users.
01:26:03
Speaker
<unk> It's us and we are going to continue doing that in in every way with every problem that you have. So even if you come to us and you tell us, hey, I had this issue or something happened, that's great because I'm sorry that it happened, but we will essentially put it in our board and try to get into it to provide a solution for you.
01:26:24
Speaker
Sounds great. Sounds great. but Well, Alex, thanks again. It's been great. Yeah, I learned a lot and I really appreciate appreciate your time. And I look forward to keeping in touch.
01:26:36
Speaker
Awesome. Thank you for having me. Your questions were were great. And I hope anyone who enjoyed, anyone who listened enjoyed the podcast. I'm sure they will. But so thanks again.
01:26:48
Speaker
chat to you soon.