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A Critique of Sword Art Online
307 Plays1 year ago
WARNING: This episode contains discussions about sensitive topics that some listeners may find upsetting. Listener discretion is advised.
In this episode, Satsunami and Andrew tackle an anime which has been heavily criticised. But what makes this anime so controversial? Is there any light at the end of this anime? Strap on your VR headset and let's link start!
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Transcript
Introduction and Sensitive Topics Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, Chatsunami here. Just before we start this episode, I just want to warn you all that we are going to be talking about some very sensitive topics that may be upsetting to some individuals. Listener's discretion is advised. Welcome to Chatsunami.
Rescuing Adam in the Game World
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Chatsunani. I'm Satenami, and unfortunately Adam has gotten self-trapped in a video game, so to help me rescue him from said game, I have recruited none other than my very good friend Green Shield95. Green Shield, welcome back. I fight for my friends. Yeah, Adam's not getting out of that game anytime soon.
00:00:55
Speaker
we will get to floor 100. 76. No, even that was not 40 something. No, I think it was the 70s they got to. They really did. Well, sorry, we are spoiled. Yeah. How are you doing today? I'm all right. Yeah. I'm excited to somewhat rant, somewhat wax lyrical about a show we've spoken about
Sword Art Online's Unique Concept
00:01:15
Speaker
before.
00:01:15
Speaker
I feel as if this is going to be the episode that either makes or breaks Chat Tsunami. It's going to be that controversial hot take one that people are going to be talking about for years. They'll pull this up in the future is how they're going to cancel us. Yes. It's going to be like a bravery museum, just a picture of us up there saying, why did you do it? Why did you talk about ACO? And yeah, that is a lovely transition to say yes. Today we are talking about
00:01:40
Speaker
the widely controversial anime Sword Art Online. I was about to joke and say widely beloved, but that would probably tick off a lot of people who don't like this anime, but if I said widely hated, that would tick off all the fans I said so you know what, widely divisive, widely controversial. Would you say that's safe in saying about this show?
00:02:01
Speaker
I think controversial is a way of describing the show at large. I think it splits opinion for sure. You and I both have things that we like about it and things that we very much do not like about it. So yeah, it is a divisive show. So do you want to give the audience a summary of the kind of show that Sword Art Online is?
00:02:18
Speaker
Sure.
Disappointment in Execution
00:02:20
Speaker
Sword Art Online essentially is a previously a manga adapted into an anime about a world that is set in a video game where a group of individuals who are play testing the game or other are there for the debut of the game get trapped
00:02:34
Speaker
inset game by the creator who intends for them to play the game to completion and if they die in the game, they die in real life. It is a full immersive video game so their mind is transport into the game and so everything seems very lifelike to them and they have to learn how to play the game and work together and form guilds and relationships and all sorts.
00:02:56
Speaker
It's a unique concept in many ways. The idea has been done through other mediums and other ways, but the actual idea was at the time pretty new, pretty unique. And the concept I think is pretty cool, but it quickly started doing things that we didn't quite like about it. And we'll get into that a little bit more later, but that is the brief synopsis of how the show started. And then it evolved into a huge franchise as very spinoffs and other arcs.
00:03:22
Speaker
As you said though, the whole premise of it does steam a little bit. I don't want to say cliche, but it's a concept that has been done before. The whole if you die in the video game, you die in real life in the rhythm. But initially anyway, as you said, initially they do it in such a way that
Recommending Sword Art Online to New Viewers
00:03:38
Speaker
you think.
00:03:38
Speaker
Wow, I wanna learn more about this world, I wanna know who these characters are, I wanna know their backstories there, struggles there, adventures throughout this game. And then you get to a certain point in it and you kinda think, okay, this isn't the anime that I initially signed up for, but
00:03:56
Speaker
because as you said, you go into this thinking, oh it's going to be this epic adventure and everything and then about, okay slight spoilers here just in case, but about 12 episodes in, the main adventure ends and you're kind of like right okay but there's 24 episodes in this season?
00:04:14
Speaker
So where's the rest of the anime? And you do get that kind of sense of, oh this is the anime, it's becoming as you go kind of further and further in. Do you know what it reminds me of? It's like, you know those pictures that you see online and it's like the more you stare at it, the more things you start to notice that you don't like?
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, I can see that. And I think there's a lot of retrospective with Sword Art Online that you look back at and you're like, did I like that? And you start to pick certain flaws within the story and how the certain events took place. We've watched a fair bit of anime prior to this.
00:04:49
Speaker
We were kind of used to a lot of tropes from anime that get deployed in the show. I can't speak for the manga. I'm an anime only recipient, anime only watcher. I didn't read the manga, but the anime does go into territory that it made you like roll your eyes while you're watching it initially. And then later on, you start being like, Oh God, no, that's not okay. And so it's tricky to recommend the show for that. I have recommended SEO to people before as a star anime because
00:05:18
Speaker
I knew that they liked video games, but weren't really into anime. So I said, Hey, check this out, maybe you'll like this. And they did, they enjoyed it. And I know that it was the kind of the birthplace of a lot of new anime watchers that they started watching anime because of SEO. Because as I said, the concept is very interesting. And it's very easy to jump into people and understand video games, they understand the idea of like living in a video game, how cool that would be. And then the premise of these people are stuck in this, and they have to complete this task in order to get out. It's a very simple concept.
00:05:48
Speaker
that is very interesting for a lot of people. And for those who aren't as familiar with anime, it seems like quite unique and gritty. And so it makes a good starter anime in those ways.
Virtual Reality and Gaming Concepts
00:05:58
Speaker
Unfortunately, it has elements that prevent the show from being truly great anime because of decisions where a girl is assaulted in a certain way. I
00:06:09
Speaker
either just for a comedic holding upside down and revealing her underwear, or in the case of later series where they're restrained by tentacles or almost molested. It gets very seedy at times. And that certainly makes it hard to be a good show for recommending in that regard. But it does do something so well. So it's such a hard one to balance. I don't know what your feelings on that are.
00:06:36
Speaker
very interested when I was researching this topic for this episode because I remember in university, you and I watched this because we were getting into like a very anime phase. It's not a phase, Mum. It's who I am! We had Google again, From Metal Alchemist Brotherhood, Hunter X Hunter. I know it's Hunter x Hunter.
00:06:59
Speaker
We had all these animes, we were watching Attack on Titan as well, and one of the ones we watched was Sword Art Online. I remember every week we would watch a handful of episodes, and we watched it at the same time there was new episodes coming out for it. So that was the Gun Gale Online art, which we will talk about in more detail later on.
00:07:20
Speaker
I remember watching it and I was very interested in the premise, you know, because I am very into the whole virtual reality world and everything and it was just such a cool concept because if you haven't noticed by now listening to Chance the Dummy, I am a big video gamer. I absolutely love video games and the whole concept
00:07:40
Speaker
So apparently Sword Art Online actually takes place in 2022 but this anime came out in I think it was 2012, so 10 years off and unfortunately we don't have that kind of technology yet but we do have the Oculus Rift and all of them and the VR headsets that we've got going around but
00:08:00
Speaker
it's still a cool idea. I remember when I first watched it, I thought, oh, you know, it's a cool idea, you're trapped in the game and you have to fight your way out and everything. That intrigued me and that hooked me in, so I can definitely see why people love this
Objectification and Fan Service Issues
00:08:15
Speaker
anime. I can
00:08:16
Speaker
110% see why. But again, going back to what you were saying there, my main issues with it are really just the objectification aspect of it. And the more you go back and look at it and analyze it and believe me, you don't have to analyze very hard when you look at these scenes, you kind of think, that's not okay. That's not okay. And for any anime fans out there, you will know that fan service and things like that are, I think,
00:08:43
Speaker
an anime is an unfortunate thing but nevertheless it's still a thing where for those of you who don't know it'll be where like a attractive looking character will come out in like skimpy clothing or they'll get themselves into quite a provocative situation and they'll do it for laughs or they'll do it for serious dramatic points but for Sword Art Online I just I don't feel as if they have the maturity to catch
00:09:09
Speaker
earlier off and as you said Green Shield it does get very uncomfortable at times but see without any further ado while we just jump into what we like about this anime and what we don't so much like about this anime yeah for sure bear with us as we try to get Adam out of the depths of his virtual world and we'll be right back after these messages.
Promotion and Sponsorship Segment
00:09:32
Speaker
Welcome to Chatanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and general interest. Previously on Chatanami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:09:50
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:10:13
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zencaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zencaster comes in. Before I met Zencaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low-quality, one-track audio waves.
00:10:31
Speaker
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Praises and Critiques of Sword Art Online
00:10:52
Speaker
Professional. I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
00:10:59
Speaker
And we're back. So, Satsunami, what is your favourite part of Sora Online? I like the credits. That joke never gets old. I'm flying over there tomorrow. I'm going to slap you. I mean, you can try if you can find me. See if I put on an Oculus. He'll never find me in here. System drive. Oh God, he found me.
00:11:18
Speaker
Anyway, my nightmares about getting cyberbilled by credential decide. I have no matter. I do like the music in this. I will say that. I do think the music is so good. You've got the opening theme crossing fields, which is the one for, I want to say season one, but the kind of first
00:11:35
Speaker
half of that year by a singer called Lisa, and I hope that's how you say it. She does an absolutely fantastic job at that. And for an anime that does have those, you know, as we said, uncomfortable moments and things, honestly, I do think that it does those fantastically. This is where your editing production skills come in handy where you now play a segment from Crossing Field. Yeah, and then they get copyright struck.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, that was a copyright free version. If Crunchyroll want to start sponsoring us, then I'll play the full thing. I will go back and edit this, but until then, you're getting my lovely vocal pipes. The other thing that I did like after Mittle was, for the most part, the action and animation isn't too bad. It's quite visually engaging at times, and I mean the fight scenes and things like that.
00:12:25
Speaker
There's a lot of ideas I do like in this series. From episodes 1 to 12, there is so much that I do like about this anime. I like the setting, I like most of the characters, but we'll get into that. Even later on in the series, there's a couple of really interesting
00:12:44
Speaker
that they do, even when they're out of the world of SEO and they go into Alfheim Online, which I've got a gripe about that, but I will come back to it. I mean, I do like that. For example, you have the Mother Rosario arc, which is, for me personally, I would go as far to say that that's probably one of my favourite arcs.
00:13:02
Speaker
out the entire series because it tries something different. It does it in a smaller scale. It's not something that's blowing up and they say, oh you have to save Yuki who's one of the main characters in this arc or the world's gonna explode. You know, it's like quite a self-contained story and it's something that I do really like about the series at times when they have those small interactions. Like one of my favourite episodes is See When Kirito Hoes. Is it with Lisbeth or Elspeth or something like that? The Blacksmith.
00:13:32
Speaker
right, yeah. Yeah, that one. When he goes out with the blacksmith to try and get a... It's like a dragon turd. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it's just like this fun side adventure and things. You think, oh, that's cool. Kind of small things like that. They kind of poop to the bed when they reintroduce these characters later on, and especially things like in the very first season. And I know there's lots more of this
00:13:57
Speaker
season but things like the villains, or some of the villains I'll say, there's a caveat here because villains like the Laughing Coffin gang who are basically serial killers, they are people who go around purposely killing their characters.
00:14:14
Speaker
There was something really sinister about them, at least in the beginning of it, but they didn't give them enough story time or anything. They pop up every so often, but then they bring them back later on when they're no longer a thing. They kind of say, oh yeah, remember Laughing Coffin? And it's like, oh yeah, that one episode we spent with them. Who could I forget? Laughing Coffin.
00:14:34
Speaker
Those are the main things. I do feel bad though because from what it sounds like from what I'm saying, I do like a lot of the earlier stuff with the exception of Mother Rosario. I do like the earlier stuff in this anime. I mean, I've watched this anime from start to finish. So I've watched it from the beginning of the Aincrad arc all the way to War of the Underworld. Those are the main things though. There's a lot in the early seasons and early
Sword Art Online Alternative Spin-off
00:15:02
Speaker
works that I like.
00:15:03
Speaker
But yeah, the more the series goes on, the less I start to enjoy it, with the exception of something like Sword Art Online Alternative, which was the spin-off series that was focused on the Gun Gale Online part of the anime. But before we go into that, and you know, like any offshoots and things like that, what were your favourite bits, Green Shield? Mine are a bit more mixed.
00:15:26
Speaker
You were saying about the animation. I like the animation style. I think it's pretty simple. It's pretty standard animation. I don't think it's really pushing out the boat too much with regards to that. The fight scenes are pretty well choreographed. I do think in the later seasons, like the Alicization seasons, the animation actually does improve and is much more unique and is interesting. And the fight scenes are very unique.
00:15:49
Speaker
and animated brilliantly in those seasons. I think there's certainly things to be said about the storytelling of those seasons, but the animation is brilliant. As you mentioned as well, I love the music. I think the music has done so, so well. Crossing Field is such a great introductory intro song, and they have this one song, which name I can never remember, but it plays during a lot of the iconic moments during the show that when things are really heating up, he's about to do something to finally win the battle. Is it Swordwind? It might be, I'm not sure.
00:16:17
Speaker
Super Editor Satsunami, add in the section for Swordlands here.
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah, that was great. Thank you. So that really hits home for me.
Kirito and Asuna's Relationship Dynamics
00:16:41
Speaker
I think that is done in such a brilliant way. It sounds a bit silly. And I mentioned this to you earlier, and I actually mentioned it to my partner, and she agreed when she heard it that it reminds me a lot of the Chronicles of Narnia movie, which again, is another one that has an excellent sort of soundtrack, I guess, to it. It's executed so brilliantly. I think that really has that going for it. I agree with you that the opening 12 episodes are the best of Sword Art Online.
00:17:04
Speaker
I think those are done in such an interesting way. And it was disappointing when it concluded that arc in that way. It did feel a little bit cheap, but it was certainly surprising. It had that going for it. Like there was certainly a surprise factor in like, Oh my goodness, they're doing it this way. And I was certainly very interested by it, but then it goes on to the Alfheim arc, which ended up being not as fun, which we'll get into in the, in the bad section. One thing that I really like about the show, I'm being a bit rambly here and it's not really kind of a train of thought so much,
00:17:34
Speaker
but the relationship between Kirito and Asuna, and I'm echoing what I heard in actually a different podcast from this, so credit to Jake from Wisdom the Bruiser for saying this, but he's right when he says that the relationship between Kirito and Asuna is very unique in anime terms because they get together, there's a little bit of
00:17:53
Speaker
sunder a, Oh, baka, I don't actually like you aspect to initially, but they fall in love, they get married, and they're together and like they fight for each other. And like there isn't a will they won't they let that goes on for the entire series. There is an aspect of like a harem in certain situations for Kirito, and especially in the later seasons, it becomes more like that where like he has different female characters sort of attaching themselves to him. But he's always with
00:18:16
Speaker
Asuna, you always feel that he is loyal to Asuna, and that is so interesting. It seems such a lovely relationship. Asuna, for the most part, is her own badass character, which gets a little bit ruined by season two, or second arc rather, but then in the Mother's Rosario arc, which I did not see, but I know it's one of your favourites, I'm aware she kind of has a bit of a redemption from that because supposedly the mangaka felt like he kind of did Asuna dirty from the previous arc and so needed to kind of redeem what he'd done to her.
00:18:43
Speaker
And so I think there's some brilliant strong female characters that are for the most part dealt with very well, albeit with a few choice scenes. But I think that's very interesting. I think that the concept of the dink sucked into a video game has been done, but I think the initial sort of online concept did it best.
00:19:01
Speaker
and it kind of spawned almost an entire genre of similar shows. It's kind of an Isekai getting sucked into another world kind of idea but like Overlord and that time I got reincarnated as a slime and all these kind of shows are very similar in that way
Criticism of Storytelling and Objectification
00:19:15
Speaker
as well. What is quite interesting
00:19:16
Speaker
interesting as well is the longevity and the ability for it to branch out, but you don't necessarily need to rely on the set story. You can see what's happening elsewhere. Like as you mentioned, Sword Art Online Alternative, which was a story set in the Gun Gale Online world with a character whose name I can never remember, but a small girl who wears like a little pink hat and has a little machine gun and she like runs really fast. And her little short storyline in that was very fun. I liked it.
00:19:45
Speaker
And they were able to do that kind of storytelling in a very different way. You go from a sort of high fantasy swords and magic aspect to guns and like tactical snipering and that kind of stuff. So it's dealt with in very different ways, very interesting. So the ability for it to be so diverse and be the catalyst for other similar shows
00:20:06
Speaker
is very good and I think that it deserves praise for that. You make absolutely fantastic points and I do agree just slightly going back to what you were saying about the Sword Art Online alternative, Grand Gale Online, try saying that five times quickly. Yeah, it is such a fun side story and what I found really interesting about it was it is relatively a relatable story for the most part in terms of its story about a character called
00:20:34
Speaker
Karen, I think her name is, and she is a, I wanna say about six foot, or she's like a very tall woman in real life, and she wants to go into like another game and try and escape, and then she comes across Gun Gale Online where she's put into the shoes of this tiny anime character who runs around with a pink P90, which I have to admit is a person who loves like these FPS games,
00:21:00
Speaker
as soon as I saw the P90, that's one of the guns that I use then. Especially co-adjutant things like that for the modern ones. I was just like, oh yeah, 100% like this character. Noob. You 1v1 me and Rust, okay? But yeah, no, I really enjoyed it. There were some bits I didn't like in it, but again, no enemies perfect. But I did enjoy it a lot more than
00:21:23
Speaker
really what we're about to talk about. Before we go on to what we're about to talk about, I just wanted to reiterate the disclaimer that we put at the beginning of this episode, that there will be some discussions about some very matured and serious themes of this anime, in particular as Green Shield had pointed out, things to do with sexual assault and aspects like that. So going into the bad aspects of this
00:21:50
Speaker
As you were saying at the very beginning of this episode, there are so many people who love this anime and they grew up with it. Some people, it was their first anime. I even remember going to the comic convention one time and seeing two kids with, you know, the swords that Kirito uses.
00:22:07
Speaker
and it was kind of like a cute image because both of them had the swords and they were at one of these panels and they were waving them excitedly in the air and things so there are people out there who do enjoy this or they might have a nostalgic attachment to this series and I mean don't get me wrong there's some aspects of this anime that even I kind of look back on and I go oh that kind of reminds me of the time that you and I could actually watch this anime together and that was kind of part of our anime learning experience really there's nothing in here
00:22:37
Speaker
wrong with, I suppose, liking aspects of this anime if you grew up with it, but on the other hand, you cannot deny that there are problematic issues with this anime. One of the main issues that I do have with this anime is the fact
00:22:52
Speaker
that there are a lot of very objectifying scenes towards female characters, which is really weird because in the first episode we get introduced to Kirito and he characterises himself as a loner, he doesn't want to integrate with any guilds or anything and eventually he opens up
00:23:14
Speaker
to this guild and he gets very friendly with a lot of the characters there. Spoilers, they all end up dying and he can't do anything to save them. It's a very poignant scene. It is very, very sad and you kind of think, oh my god, is this the tone that they're going to bring throughout the rest of the anime? Spoilers, no. 110% is not the tone that they bring throughout the rest of the anime.
00:23:38
Speaker
There's a particular scene later on, other than the obvious issues of the arc ending far, far too early, you have the villain of the piece too. They actually meet by the end of episode 12 and they ask him, why did you do this? And he says, you know what? I don't remember. That is the most frustrating storytelling device. Sorry to jump into yours, but yeah, that is so annoying when a show's villain is asked, why have you done this? And they're like, oh, I'm sure I knew at one point, but I don't anymore. It's like, oh,
00:24:07
Speaker
It's because you don't know why they've done this. The writer, you have to think about this. It just seems bad. I don't like that either. It does seem a little bit lazy when it's like, why did you do this? For the logs, for the shits and giggles, you're like, that's not good enough. I mean, you're a criminal.
00:24:22
Speaker
you're a criminal and you're supposed to look at him like this misunderstood genius because although some people might disagree and say well no actually he is seen as like a horrible horrible person rightfully so I mean if you do look at it you know later on in the anime he helps Kirito and you're kind of like but why is he helping Kirito?
00:24:44
Speaker
when they trapped him in the game for two years and I don't know, maybe there's like an explanation that just went right over my head. But the turning point for me that really made me uncomfortable with this anime, other than the obvious tropes and things like that, was there's a particular scene in the Alfheim arc where first of all, before I go on, see if I was trapped in my Oculus Rift for two years and I nearly died and then like a year later coming out, or maybe not a year later, but you know, a couple of months
00:25:12
Speaker
after coming out of it someone said, oh they released a new game but it's like a safer version of the Oculus. I would not touch that with a barge bow. I don't know how you'd be opening shield but I would not touch that with a barge bow. I would be like getting that shit out of my face, I nearly died from that. Would you go into it again?
00:25:28
Speaker
No, I mean, certainly we level like PTSD trauma associated with the entire idea. I think I think I would be very reluctant to dive back into it. But at the same time, maybe there's also an element of almost like a Stockholm syndrome or like a dependency on that world. You can't live in reality anymore. Reality doesn't seem real to you anymore. So you need to immerse yourself back into that game world. So I can kind of understand it to that capacity. I can understand why
00:25:53
Speaker
Kirito goes back because it has to save Asuna who's still in Alfheim Online and I get that but they never really take it beyond
Handling of Sensitive Topics in Anime
00:26:02
Speaker
that. He drops into the game and he's like oh where's my weapons and everything? Really? Are we not going to explore this just a wee bit more? I get it this isn't like Ghost in the Shell tier writing or even Psycho Pass God forbid but you know there has to be something surely but no he just kind of shrugs it off and goes okay let's go get that gamerscore.
00:26:21
Speaker
But as I said, the turning point was it's revealed that Asuna initially, as you said, in the first 12 episodes, she is considered as a very strong and dependent character. She can look after herself. She's very determined. She has her own mind. In season two, they just make her her damsel in distress. That's the long nature of it.
00:26:42
Speaker
They put her into a literal birdcage. You look it up at your own discretion, but they literally put her in a birdcage where a... I want to say a pervy businessman has her captive. It's a simplification, but it's a pervy businessman at the end of the day who wants to marry her to get her dad's company or something. There's a turning point in it where she tries to escape. So you think, oh great, this is the old Dassena coming back.
00:27:08
Speaker
and then there's a scene where she comes across a laboratory within the game. Now you would think that the scientists who work in this laboratory would just be normal scientists, but no, they are tentacle monsters, slime tentacle monsters who wrap their tentacles around Asuna and basically just constrain her to be honest, but the way it's kind of framed and shot, it does just look completely dodgy.
00:27:32
Speaker
There's certainly molestation vibes to it. Absolutely. It's just it's very uncomfortable and it put me right off because I thought, why is this a thing? Why did they have to have this in the game or the show in general? They do say something like, oh, we got to choose our own avatars and things. It's like, no, there's an easy explanation. You can just make them all stupid fairy elf people.
00:27:54
Speaker
just say, oh yeah, theory also, we've captured Asuna, but no, they have to make them tentacle monsters and that's that uneasy with me because they do something very similar and I think it's War of the Underwood with Leafa who turns out to be Kirito's step-sister or his actual sister.
00:28:12
Speaker
I think it's actually like his cousin, but they say sister because I don't know if that's just like a Japanese East Asian kind of term that you would say sister, but either way, a family member. Yeah. A family member who off topic is attracted to him as well. And every female character is attracted to Kirito. So it's like, great. That's where the harem part comes in. But there's a part in World of the Underworld where they are trying to save Kirito from this
00:28:38
Speaker
other 3D virtual world and everything. You're like, oh great, here we go again. And she gets tied up once again by tentacles, which there's a kind of fascination with tentacles in this show. It's just uncomfortable because there's virtually no need for that scene to be in it. The fact is, if you're writing a story and you could cut that scene out and nothing would change in the story, that's it. You don't need it. You've
00:29:00
Speaker
clearly don't need it in. But that's the kind of things that did make me very uncomfortable. What are your thoughts on that though, Green Shield? Because I know I'm going on about it, but I'm assuming you felt the same way about these kind of elements in the show. Yeah, I mean, I touched on it prior to the conversation here and also jumping into what you were saying. It's moments like that that really kind of make you wince and as you said, go like, why have they included this?
00:29:25
Speaker
My only explanation is as a demonstration of just how bad these characters are to go like, oh, these people are so bad that they'll do this to this female character. But there are other ways of displaying that you don't need to do that. It makes it an uncomfortable watch for no reason. I'm not going to say that one is any better than the other. But if they just had them like slap Asuna, that would have been less uncomfortable. It's
00:29:53
Speaker
It still is an awful thing to do and it represents that they're an awful person, but it doesn't make it seem it's some weird fetishisation of the character. Isn't there a literal scene though in Alfheim where the antagonist just licks her all over? Yes. And again, why? It's not unique to this show. It's not.
00:30:11
Speaker
There are so many shows, anime specifically, that I've watched with very similar scenes, with very similar antagonists. And it never works for me. It never hits in the way that I feel like they're trying to make it a hit. I just don't see why they've done that. And I think that it alienates a potential audience when you include scenes like that.
00:30:33
Speaker
It's the difference between watching the show with your parents. If the show didn't include those scenes, you could theoretically watch the show with your parents, your partner, your friends and family who aren't as necessary into anime and then go, Hey, this show is pretty interesting, pretty cool, cool concepts, fun fights, so that kind of stuff. But then scenes like that crop up.
00:30:53
Speaker
you then have to justify to them why you watch that and justify that you are not interested in that. I've not had to go through that, fortunately. But just just imagining having to go through that is very awkward. And you want to try and make the medium as accessible as possible. One of the truly great and I bring this up so often
00:31:12
Speaker
One of the truly great animes that is so accessible is Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood. And it does not include any scenes like that. And as I've mentioned in previous episodes, the likely reason for that is because the mangaka is a woman and she knows the reason why people don't want to see that and don't need to see that. And you can write compelling antagonists.
00:31:32
Speaker
without including scenes of that nature and almost trivializing what is a horrendous topic. And again, it's not just the show, it's the medium, it's the culture behind the medium rather. It's what is holding back anime from being any more mainstream than it can be, because you have aspects like that, that you have to create, I'm not gonna say this is necessary comic relief in those instances, but that there's often comic relief that is one character perving on a female character.
00:32:01
Speaker
that I think is one of the big things that needs to be addressed in manga and anime culture that I don't think will be addressed for the foreseeable future because it is a different cultural mindset. They don't care in Japan. There isn't that interest to change because they do think that's funny or compelling or interesting. Well, I mean, considering you've got shows like Food Wars, where the whole premise is literally people eat foods and then the clothes go flying off and it's like, oh, by the way, this is a culinary school for teenagers. And you go,
00:32:31
Speaker
This is not comfortable. Yeah. I totally get what you mean though. It is very uncomfortable at times and again you do remind yourself that these characters are 16 years old and I'm not saying it would be any better if they were adults but the fact that these are teenagers going into their way adulthood and everything and you're like
00:32:54
Speaker
I know it's probably a cultural difference but again from our perspective as a Western audience, it doesn't sit right and again Sword Art in Line is by no means the worst defender of this trope but certainly they don't do themselves any favours with certain scenes like that.
Character Analysis and Development
00:33:17
Speaker
No, and they don't seem to learn either. You could say like, oh, well, that was back in 2012. They've learned and moved on from that. But as you said, it happens again in what is actually probably a worst scene in War of the Underworld. And in that instance, it's a female antagonist, I believe, that is restraining one of the female side characters. And it's used as an inspiration for... It's like a pet character.
00:33:42
Speaker
Yeah, pig character who was like a villain that turned and became a hero. Very, very bizarre. It's a very, very jarring scene, I have to say. I remember watching that and just getting increasingly uncomfortable the more it went on and I was like, okay, there's no reason for this scene. Again, that's exactly one of the scenes I think of when I think, can you cut this out of the anime? Yes. Will this affect the climax of the story? No, it won't. You know, because she comes back later on and she's
00:34:12
Speaker
perfectly fine. It almost, and again I'm not making any assumptions about the author or anything like that, but it does seem to trivialise a lot of it. It happens as a plot point to move the story along, and then as soon as that plot point's done, they just never talk about it again.
00:34:32
Speaker
But why bring something so horrendous up? You don't want to bring up something as serious as sexual assault and then just be like, oh, it was because this guy is a bad guy. As you said, you could easily achieve that in multiple ways. Do you know what it actually reminds me of? And I think one of our guests on the show previously, Craigie C., has brought this up.
00:34:56
Speaker
but years and years ago we used to do a bad movie night together and the sign of like a really bad film that we found was that there was a lot of films that we put on you know just completely random off of amazon or something like that being like oh how bad can this be and a lot of the common themes in that was the you sexual assault and
00:35:17
Speaker
in some of these films, whether it be low budget action films or things like that, but they didn't really treat it with any kind of nuance or sincerity, or they kept it going along and it was just there for the sake of being there. And that's how I feel with Sword Art Online. If it wants to be taken seriously, it should treat something like that with a bit more care and attention, rather than just saying, yes, Leafa's sexual assault was to spur on Pigman
00:35:46
Speaker
I actually can't remember his name. I can't remember most of their names. That is true. But even still, you know, I honestly can't remember his name. So clearly that scene didn't make an impact because I'm not thinking about Pigman's redemption. I'm thinking Jesus Christ. When is Pigman going to get his own arc?
00:36:03
Speaker
And when are we gonna get to the big man arc? It's not justifiable. I know that's a big rant to say it's not justifiable. I think that speaks to the show as well that the egregious scenes are the ones you remember more than the good iconic scenes, I feel.
00:36:20
Speaker
And the characters, other than the main couple, don't impact you enough that you remember their names. We were talking earlier about one of the main antagonists in the first part of Alice-ization, Quinella. The both of us were like, who the fuck is Quinella?
00:36:39
Speaker
There was literally about 20 episodes dedicated to her, so clearly made a great impression. And that is another can of worms, that character essentially seducing a teenage boy. Was that Yu-Gi-Oh or something? Yu-Gi-Oh, yeah. I mean, he wasn't that bad, I have to say. I liked him as a character.
00:36:56
Speaker
I actually really liked him because initially when I saw the opening for that arc and I saw Kirito fist bumping this rando, I was like, who the hell was this? And then by the end of it, I was like, aw, that's a nice wee relationship that had going on. Spoilers, he becomes a sword. It's kind of stupid. Well, it's anime, I suppose. It was bound to happen. It was 2012. It was a different time, okay? They were all becoming swords. It was the done thing. Yeah, exactly. Which was the style at the time.
00:37:26
Speaker
No, I get what you mean though. I mean, he was alright. There's some other elements though that I have to admit just jumping off of what you were saying about things being forgettable. There is like an entire, it's like a mini-arc, don't get me wrong, but there's an arc in between Gungell Online and Mother Rosario where they focus on the gang going off on like a side adventure. It's pretty forgettable and boring but I have to admit it's not as if
00:37:53
Speaker
offensive, I would say, as something like The End of War of the Underworld or bits of Alfheim Online. So, say before we talk about other things we didn't like, because I know we've got Gun Gale Online to talk about as well, because there's certain elements that you and I both think it's safe to say we agree
Infamous Chapter 16.5 Discussion
00:38:11
Speaker
on. It's not as good in certain regards compared to the original series, but there's a particular thing that I want to bring up
00:38:20
Speaker
I'm gonna get this elephant out of my room right now because he is just taking up so much space in here and that of course is chapter 16.5. Now before I go on Green Shield, did you have any knowledge of chapter 16.5? No. That was a very diplomatic know then.
00:38:41
Speaker
continue along on what is Chapter 16.5. For those of you who don't know, Sword Art Online began as a light novel and I think the work was kind of submitted and you know was written before it became picked up as a light novel when then subsequently an anime, but there's a particular
00:38:58
Speaker
particular chapter, let's just say that the writer. And again, before I go into this, I just want to say this was written as I want to say like as non-canon and outside of the world of SEO and everything, but I still want to bring this up because I know someone out there will be like, oh, they didn't talk about chapter 16.5. Basically, it is a smut fan fiction and I'm going to be as nice as possible in the way I phrase all of this. But yeah,
00:39:26
Speaker
is basically just what happened on Kirito and Asuna's honeymoon with graphic depictions of them going at it and just horrible onomatopoeia like glopping sounds is thrown around quite a lot. You know when you're getting all frisky and you create some glopping sounds? Exactly. Glopping. What was the other term? Two years worth of something. Oh my god. No, that's what they say. I'm not even going to finish that sentence because I refuse to give it the credit.
00:39:55
Speaker
or even this scorn deserves. I sat and thought, there is no way, there is absolutely no way this is as bad as people are saying. And it wasn't until one day one of my friends, he's quite bad for sending me shitposts for like anime and just different memes and things. I mean, usually I do love seeing them in the morning being like, oh, what a funny meme. But there was one they sent me and it was just like a normal screenshot of SEO and it was kind of framed like a motivational poster. And they took a
00:40:22
Speaker
quote from that particular passage as it were. And I read this and I sat there for a good five minutes, didn't even touch my Cheerios, and just sat there for five minutes and I was like, what the hell's this? And they explained about chapter 16.5, which again is like a smutty fanfiction. So you might be thinking, why am I talking about smutty fanfiction?
00:40:41
Speaker
because it was written by the author himself and that just baffles me to be honest that somehow he thought it was appropriate. Again it's going back to that thing of what he considers appropriate compared to what the audience considers appropriate and everything.
00:40:56
Speaker
just a mess, it's horrible, it's awful. But I thought I might as well bring it up, get it out of the way, because someone out there will know what I'm talking about and I don't want them thinking, oh but you didn't mention this, because I actually saw someone online, they had the call to turn around to be like, oh yeah whenever SEO haters come online they always quote that. So just as proof, I have quoted that after all of our other criticisms, so you're welcome out there. It seems as if it's kind of a problem that's
00:41:26
Speaker
been with the series at the very beginning. You know, it doesn't seem as if the tentacle scenes, the objectification, it doesn't seem as if that's been sprung out of nowhere. You know, it's like he's writing one day and he accidentally draws a tentacle. He's like, good heavens, a tentacle. You know, it's not like that. All I can say is Green Shield, I'm sorry for telling you about it. I wish I could say I could forgive you, but… That's why I'm going to the shadow realm after this episode.
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah, bring it back to what you were saying about the side quests in between arcs, that kind of thing. One thing we didn't mention, which actually was quite good, and I liked it, was the murder mystery mini arc, where essentially the whole idea is that in these like town squares is like a safe zone.
00:42:07
Speaker
You can't die in the safe zone. And so a lot of people end up kind of staying and living in the safe zones and so they don't like risk dying. We then have a situation where someone dies in the town and is permanently dead. And so it becomes a murder mystery as to what happened and how this occurred. And so Kirito and Asuna are detectives trying to solve the case. It goes on for I think two episodes.
00:42:32
Speaker
I think it's a two episode arc. It is actually very interesting and is dealt with in quite a fun way. And I would recommend those little two episodes for sure, even if you don't watch the entire show, because that is quite fun. I have to admit, I did like it. I thought that it was kind of a breath of fresh air. SEO and Aincrad, the world as a whole, is such an expansive world that they
00:42:55
Speaker
could explore and it was interesting to see them delve into people who didn't want to fight, you know, people who wanted to stay in these safe zones and exploring, oh what would happen if, as you said, if these areas were compromised, I liked it.
00:43:10
Speaker
I did think it was really interesting, but again, going back to the criticisms, I felt as if they rushed through them far too much. I don't feel as if they gave them the kind of time to breathe as they probably should have.
Gun Gale Online Arc Review
00:43:23
Speaker
Overall, I did like it. But the one thing we haven't talked about is the aspect of Gun Gale Online, which is, correct me if I'm wrong, Season 3 of the anime.
00:43:32
Speaker
I believe it's actually season two. I think it's season two because I think technically Aincrad and Alfheim are one season. It's just separated to arcs. I think it's technically like the third proper arc, but the second season. Yeah, what were your impressions? Because we've actually got quite a history with this arc, I have to say, because as I said, we watched this anime when we were in university and by the time we finished SEO, we couldn't get one line art.
00:43:59
Speaker
was just coming out and you and I both watched it all week on week together. Yeah, what were your initial thoughts of this one? I was intrigued by it and again, I liked the music. I think the soundtrack for it was quite good from where I remember the opening song. It was such a departure from the fantasy genre that we'd previously been in that that was a bold move and I quite liked
00:44:23
Speaker
that they did that and that we were seeing characters put into a different arena. And so that intrigued me and I like a lot of aspects of it. I think the actual, once again, the concept being interesting was let down by the actual storytelling, which I felt was quite weak for that arc. What were your opinions?
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree with that. So as we've established countless times in the original 12 episodes, if you died in the game, you died in real life. But in Gun Gale Online, there was a guy going around called Death Gun. Yes, that is his real name, Death Gun. Mr and Mrs Gun had a baby and they called it Death Gun.
00:44:59
Speaker
It's certainly named a site. He basically shot players in the game, and when they shot them in the game, they ended up dying in real life. So there was that whole kind of mystery of, oh, who's doing it and everything, and slight spoilers, but it turns out to be some of the members of the band formerly known as the Laughing Coffin Gang. I liked that they kind of brought them back, and they do bring them back in Alicization, even if it is like a, I was about to say it was a poisoned umbrella, but it isn't.
00:45:29
Speaker
I think I've been watching too much James Bond thinking it was a poisoned umbrella. He got shot by, but no it wasn't. It was curious how far anyone who cares about that, but I think it was him trying to fend them off with an umbrella. But anyway, so Laughing Coffin, they are a gang who basically, they team up and they try to purposely kill players and take quite a sadistic pleasure in it. So in the first 12 episodes, there's, it's like a sin diamond thing above the heads, isn't it?
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah. It is like Sims, isn't it? I forgot about that whole aspect to it. It like warns other players whether or not a certain player has attacked or killed other people players. And so like, I think if it's green, they haven't attacked anyone. That's another human. If it's yellow, they've attacked someone. And if it's red, they've killed another human player.
00:46:16
Speaker
because it's a really cool episode of the original one where there's a character without green diamond but they hide it because I think they poison people or something. There's a loophole that they get around it so they're able to hide themselves and that's like a really cool and intense moment in the show. I really did like the way they handled that
00:46:37
Speaker
But it's weird the way they handle them from the end of the first 12 episodes, because they don't come back at all. I don't know if they're mentioned or not, but they don't come back at all until Gungell online. Then they disappear again, and they don't come back until Alicization. But then after the first episodes of Alicization, they're gone again.
00:46:55
Speaker
and it is such an interesting and fascinating concept which I wish they had spent more time on but again I brought that up before that they do need to spend more time fleshing out these characters though as I was saying before Death Gun is a former Laughing Coffin member and Kirito was sent to hunt them down and try and bring them in but the
00:47:16
Speaker
The way they set it up is just very boring. There's like a whole scene where they spend half the episode, and I think I'm being generous here, but half the episode in a cafe. Do you remember that where it's like it's him and the government agent just talking over coffee and tea?
00:47:31
Speaker
I was about to bring that up. They essentially have like the Japanese FBI that recruits Kirito being like, we have this murder case to solve. We need some cyber esports crime division to go in and handle it. We're bringing you in kid. Surely you can go investigate it through other methods like have an actual detective or officer that can learn how to play the game. It's a
00:47:50
Speaker
video game. I know young kids are generally better at video games and it's not super easy to get really good at a video game, but they could put time in so that an actual federal officer is doing this, rather than getting a kid to risk his life. Can you imagine if that was translated into the real world to where, and I'm probably dating the episode by saying this, but if you've got a Twitch streamer, I don't know, Ninja or Pokemon or something.
00:48:12
Speaker
It's like, okay, you can find the serial killer online. It's like, wait a minute. As you say, I shouldn't way find someone who's a bit more trained on the subject and it's like, nah. Or it's like trying to hunt down a cannibal with someone who's watched all of the Hannibal Lecter films, the number one fan in the fan club. So it's like, he's definite with the number one choice of someone you want to be part of your team on. Short answer, no. I know what you mean. It's kind of a contrived point but
00:48:38
Speaker
It's something to get them into the story, and I get why they do it, but I totally agree with you. I don't feel as if it's really appropriate. It's probably the right word for a child to be involved in an investigation. Would you say that this has one of the silliest conclusions out of any of the arcs?
00:48:58
Speaker
Yes, probably fair. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot more silly ones. Like for example, the first 12 episodes where they say, why did you do it? I don't know. Or the Lickerton villain in the Alfheim season. To be fair, I actually quite liked the ending of the second arc.
00:49:14
Speaker
I thought it was quite good when he came back into the real world and was hobbling through the hospital, or hobbling through the parking lot and fighting with the guy. I found that very compelling, actually. I got quite invested in that at the time. I've not actually watched it since. It's been a long time since I've watched it, but I remember being very invested at the time.
00:49:31
Speaker
the thing is, the ending of this arc isn't that bad, but there's one particular scene that Yu and I, and I remember this vividly, that Yu and I watched the episode where Death Gun comes to, is it Sinon's door? The new female character that they introduced where Kirito comes across this sniper who is very good at the game and they team up and they try to take down Death Gun with his lightsaber.
00:49:57
Speaker
which I keep forgetting about. There's a particular scene where Death Gun finds out where she lives, and Kirito's coming to save her, and there's a scene where it's like he gets stabbed with a needle from the Death Gun guy, and you think, oh my god, what's going to happen now? And then remember you and I looking at each other thinking, oh my god, I can't wait to see what happens.
00:50:19
Speaker
So it turns out because I think he's in like an FBI facility or something like that, or as you said the Japanese version of the FBI where he's got like the heart monitors and things, the explanation, or the way they explain that way is that his heart monitor duhake, and that's the medical term of course, ends up blocking a needle so he didn't get injected with poisons.
00:50:43
Speaker
Yeah, that was just so disappointing. I remember sitting with you and just remembering when we looked at each other, we were just like, really? Is this what we're waiting one week for? To be like, just deflected off his heart monitor. It was anticlimactic and it was
Potential and Missed Opportunities
00:50:57
Speaker
silly. The idea that the heart monitor protected him.
00:51:00
Speaker
Maybe we're not giving the magica justice. Maybe he did some of his own tests and knew that a heart monitor is made of a certain thickness and material that breaks the needle. I don't know, but it did seem a bit stupid. Do you know what it reminds me of though? It's like, you know whenever you get a
00:51:16
Speaker
character in like a Western or something. They have like the whiskey flask is like protected them. It's like the whiskey, the Bible, the pocket watch. Yeah, it's just this any item here. The Nokia phone. Of course, that saved more lives than you can imagine. But yes, this episode being sponsored by Nokia side. Now for legal reasons, that's a joke.
00:51:37
Speaker
Is there anything else that you would point out though that you either liked or disliked? What are your final thoughts about ACO as a whole? I've expressed this throughout already. My final thoughts on it is that it is a show with so much potential and there's certainly more that can be done still with the material. Going back and looking at
00:52:00
Speaker
the show I'm able to sort of see without rose-tinted glasses. The issues that concerned me at the time are still prevalent and prevent me from fully recommending the show. It has some great highs and unfortunately some very low lows. And one of the biggest things that lets it down is its villains, its antagonists. I don't think it writes
00:52:22
Speaker
antagonists well. A lot of people complain about the protagonists, the Kirito's OP, that he's boring, the harm of girl characters aren't interesting, which are valid criticisms. I don't buy into them necessarily as much, I find them intriguing enough, but I do think that the villains are poorly written.
00:52:39
Speaker
I did not mind the soldier villain from the War of the Underworld's arc, his underling was really bad but he was decent I guess, but for the most part the villains are a bit crap in the show and that's I think what lets it down the most. Going back to that point, there are a lot of characters that on paper they seem decent enough
00:53:01
Speaker
you've got the stereotypical brooding antagonist, you've got the strong independent female leads right beside him and everything but as the series goes on this will sound like a really weird description but it does feel like a jpeg almost.
00:53:17
Speaker
The more the series goes on, the more it starts to slowly deteriorate, and initially when you're looking at it you don't really notice these issues, you think, oh no, it must just be me, I'm overthinking certain things, but the more and more blatant issues, as we said before, with all time, with
00:53:34
Speaker
more of the underworld with certain elements for that and I know we haven't touched on the films yet but I mean that can be a topic for another day to be honest because the films from what I remember seeing of the first one I think it was Ordinal Scale
00:53:50
Speaker
It wasn't actually the worst. It was a relatively interesting idea. Again, I don't want to spend too much time to be like, oh, it was great or it was awful, but it wasn't bad. And I think the world of SEO has potential. And I think that's my main issue with this anime, why I sometimes criticise it. It's not because it's inherently a bad anime, but it's an anime with missed potential. And I think that's the worst thing you can be
00:54:15
Speaker
a bad anime, that's kind of standard in the industry. You're either, you know, a great world-class anime, you're kind of mid-range, or you're just going to be one that's going to be scorned. Or you're bleach. Or you're bleach. Or one piece. How dare you? I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's going on forever. That's all I'm saying. Although that's probably day to day episode when I don't know next week the author says, yeah, I'm quick now. Don't you dare. If Hunt a Hunter can make a comeback though, then there's hope for it ending.
00:54:44
Speaker
a boykin. For legal reasons that is a joke. I apologise to all the One Piece fans out there, including you Green Shield. I'm sorry. We'll get a One Piece episode out of you, yeah. If there's any One Criticism I would levy against this show, it would be the missed potential. It's a
00:54:59
Speaker
show that they could have done so much with. They could have explored the different floors in Aincrad. They could have gone further. This is a series that definitely could have stayed in the same world for a lot longer, but it does feel as if he's uncomfortable. The mangaka ricky Karahawa.
00:55:17
Speaker
It does feel as if he just doesn't like to stay in one place for too long. For the first one, it's Aincrad for the next arc. It's Alfheim, then it's Gungea Online, then it's back to Aincrad for the... I think for the next one? Yeah, it is for the next two arcs where it's the one where Kirito and Kolor get the Golden Sword, and the one after, that's the Mother Rosario arc.
00:55:41
Speaker
And then after that, we've got a whole new world where it's like a top super-secret facility. And Kirito's in a coma or something as well. Even before that though, it's like they say, oh, Kirito's been here before. It's like this hyper-secure facility in the middle of the ocean where one of the leads
00:56:02
Speaker
scientists dress in traditional Japanese attire for a very secure facility. They don't actually have very good security because a group of them storm the base and that's why Girito actually gets trapped because he's getting unplugged, but just as he's getting unplugged, I think the system crashes with him still in it. So it completely thrives his brain and he has to stay in that world. But as you said, he's comatose and everything.
00:56:29
Speaker
there's a lot of plot points that you can pick apart, much like any anime, there's a lot of plot points you can pick
Fandom Dynamics and Criticism
00:56:35
Speaker
apart. If you enjoyed this anime, no shade to you, because I'm not going to sit here and say who if you enjoyed this anime, then you're the worst type of human being, because it is surprising, and you've met them as well, but it is surprising how passionate SEO fans are.
00:56:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure this exists for every fandom, but I did criticise elements of SEO on Twitter once and got a barrage of hate for it. I felt like the criticism I laid wasn't criticising necessarily, I was criticising I feel a section of the show that deserves examination and criticism. And the fans did not like that seem to deem that the show is without criticism or impervious to criticism.
00:57:17
Speaker
It was a very bizarre interaction, and I took a step back from it. I didn't want to really engage with them any further. So I just kind of left them to their own devices. But it did shock me because I'd never really had that kind of engagement reaction from anyone on social media before. They were very, very defensive of a very stupid topic. And now that hate has fallen onto me. Thank you, Grigio.
00:57:38
Speaker
If you want to discuss opinions on SAO, direct it to atchatsunami on Twitter. Yes, whatever you do, do not share this episode. Do not listen to it a couple of times, then share it with your friends or please don't. That would be terrible for a podcast. Hate on it with your friends. Get them to download it so they can hate on it too. Make TikToks.
00:58:00
Speaker
Yeah, mate, TikTok clips. Yeah, that totally won't advertise the episode. I'm going to bring up a very kind of side tangent point, and I'm curious to hear what you think of this just before we finish up. But I feel as if nowadays with the kind of age of the internet, because you and I are both young enough to remember a time where we're kind of on the cusp of the internet just coming into the world.
00:58:23
Speaker
you know, like, obviously the internet does predate the 2000s and everything, but not in the form it is today. You had the dial-up internet that was coming in, and when broadband came in, it was absolutely revolutionary. And it's weird to think that in this day and age, you can't think of a world where the internet wasn't there. You know, it's like, see when you're watching some shows, you have to remind yourself, well, they don't have mobile phones, the internet's not a thing. And you're like, oh, okay, fair enough. But with this age of people, and then myself and
00:58:52
Speaker
included. I'm not going to hold myself up above anybody else because obviously that's not fair, but I myself have my own opinions via the chat tsunami podcast and of course on Twitter through Twitch and everything. The internet for better or for worse has enabled people to have their own voices on the internet to build these fandoms, to build these communities and say what they think is good and dictate maybe what's not as good. But on the flip side, although it's been used for good,
00:59:21
Speaker
there has been a lot of negative discourse for certain fandoms, whether it's good intentions, or it's something like, as we said, Sword Art Online, or most commonly an example I'm gonna pluck from my own life, Sonic the Hedgehog, where you'll get fans who are very vocal, they believe that what they're seeing represents the entire
00:59:41
Speaker
a fandom. Usually these are younger people mind you but because they've got this voice and they're kind of enabled by other people in this kind of bubble, nowadays it is more common to see these kind of fans. I don't know whether that contributes towards why people are so defensive of this show because let's face it SEO is a punching bag.
01:00:02
Speaker
in the anime world. It's low hanging fruit is what I'm getting at. Whenever someone makes fun of an anime, usually they'll say oh like SEO hahaha. And I can understand people who grow up with this show and they say oh this is the best show ever, I loved it when I was younger. I can't wait to see what people said online and you know they get confronted with a barrage of people saying negative things about it and they get defensive. That being said though, as we said with the criticisms
01:00:26
Speaker
that does not mean that your franchise is free of criticism. Just because you love something doesn't mean that other people cannot criticise it. And whether it's good criticism, like you can criticise the criticism if that makes sense, but at the same time just because you like something doesn't mean there's going to be like a force field above your franchise. So are they going back to you, Green Shield? What are your thoughts on that?
01:00:51
Speaker
That's what I was saying before. You have to be aware that even things that you like are not impervious to criticism. And you need to be open that other people have different opinions on shows and movies and books and music that you like. Everything about that is subjective. And so you can say that criticism is not necessarily valid in certain aspects, it's more of an opinion.
01:01:12
Speaker
But you can critique how matters are being discussed, how they're being dealt with within material. And you need to understand the certain things that make people uncomfortable are worth discussing unless the thing that you're uncomfortable with is because of your own prejudice.
01:01:29
Speaker
It's a bit of a minefield. It's a difficult one to navigate because you want to be able to say opinions are valid, and then you'll have people who go like, there were two gays that kissed in this, and that may be uncomfortable. So like, it's a criticism of the property in which situation that's stupid, but where a character has been sexually assaulted, and it is trivialized, there is valid criticism there. It is it's such a difficult one to navigate. But I do think that for the most part, you need to be open that your show is not impervious from criticism.
01:01:58
Speaker
Green Shield, thank you so much for coming on to the show and talking about SEO. No problem, thank you for having me. We've had rants about it in the past, but never into this much depth, so it was cathartic. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's an episode that was a long time coming,
Conclusion and Listener Acknowledgment
01:02:12
Speaker
I'll say. It was a long time coming. And on that note, before I get really cancelled, thank you
01:02:16
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening to this episode. If you would like to check us out on other podcasting apps, you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and of course our pod page website. Just look for the Red Panda under the name Chat Tsunami and we will see you there. Also finally, I will
01:02:35
Speaker
give a huge shout out to our Panda Wolverine patrons, Robotic Battle Toaster and Sonya, thank you so so much for supporting the channel and if you would like to catch more exclusive content from ourselves and early access episodes you can indeed catch us on
01:02:51
Speaker
patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. But until then, thank you all so so much for listening to this episode, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get a sandwich out of my VR headset.