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EP 15: Benny Oeyen Part 2: Tuning challenger brand Kia for Europe and GM to China
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During this second in a two-part episode, The Auto Ethnographer’s host John Stech speaks with Benny Oeyen, a Belgian who is passionate about building bridges between cultures. With automotive experience on four continents and with four distinctly different automakers, he is well-prepared to speak on cultural impacts in the industry. Benny is in the unique position of having worked for automakers in or from three major Asian countries, Mazda, Kia, and GM China. He is energetic and tells his story in a candid, compelling way weaving together the cultural aspects to the product strategy.
This week Benny tells of his challenges working with Kia Motors Europe as Vice President of Marketing & Product Planning. In 2009 he was one of the first non-Koreans to attain this level within the company and it was a critical time. Kia was on the cusp of transitioning from a maker of cheap, relatively unstylish cars to the Kia we know today, the purveyor of highly-styled, fully-equipped quality vehicles. Benny would play a crucial role in helping Kia achieve that transition with European consumers.
One critical point he discussed was trust in the Kia brand. Benny was a proponent of expanding Kia’s vehicle warranty from 2 years (the European minimum) to 7 years. He recounts in detail how that happened and mentioned a television advertisement he developed to help sell the concept to consumers. The advertisement can be found here at “7 is better than 2”: https://youtu.be/HEdMmP7jbBQ?si=gGhlI2RhO3CwnH2j
Following his five year stint with Kia, Benny joined in the rush for China. He explained that the largest automotive market on the planet was a must-have checkmark on the CV for any C-suite executive. General Motors China afforded him the opportunity as Vice President Product Planning & Strategy in the Chinese market. He spent three years in Shanghai learning the intricacies of the Chinese market and fickle consumer. He also observed trends on the rise of the Chinese auto industry a decade ago, long before the alarm bells began to ring for traditional automakers.
Benny rounds out the episode with some sound advice for people considering moving out of their home country and into a new culture. Listen in on the conversation to learn more about his insights.
Benny is now leveraging his experience in the global automotive industry as the European Managing Partner of Automobility Ltd, a consultancy focused on global mobility initiatives. You can learn more about Automobility Ltd at their website: https://automobility.io/
For more information on The Auto Ethnographer, please visit the homepage at https://www.auto-ethnographer.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Cultural Commentary
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, i listen, a 35 hour work week in Korea, then probably they think you had half a week off. Hello and welcome to the Auto Ethnographer. I'm John Steck, your host on this journey. We travel the globe to bring you stories about culture and the global automotive industry.
00:00:16
Speaker
Fasten your seatbelt and let's get started.
Recap of Previous Episode with Benny Oyen
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to part two of the conversation with Benny Oyen. Last week, we talked about his experiences at Mazda Motor Europe, as well as at Chrysler Europe and Chrysler International in the United States.
00:00:30
Speaker
This
Benny Oyen at Kia Motors Europe and General Motors in China
00:00:31
Speaker
week, we're going to turn our attention to his experiences at Kia Motors Europe, as well as his adventure in China with General Motors China. So sit back, relax, and here we go.
00:00:45
Speaker
So, Benny, you worked with Chrysler in the US and in Europe, and one can argue that it was a challenger brand in Europe and pretty much everywhere else on Earth other than the NAFTA region.
00:00:56
Speaker
But then you made a jump to what one could say was definitely another challenger brand at that point in time, which was Kia. Kia has certainly come a long way since the early two thousand so But can you tell me a little bit about your experience there? Because that must have been a dramatic change from what you experienced at Chrysler.
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, talking about a challenger brand, indeed, John. I remember as if it was yesterday, it was 2008, late beginning of 2009. I was in my office in in Auburn Hills. I was the head of product strategy worldwide. And we were just before declaring Chapter 11. You
Chrysler's Chapter 11 and Strategic Shifts
00:01:36
Speaker
remember that? for and'm Sorry, not Ford, but General Motors and Chrysler had to go to Uncle Sam, to the government, the US s government, to ask for money ah in order to survive. And this was a change from Bush to Obama, I believe.
00:01:50
Speaker
And now we were working with the the czars there and there were all kinds of merger, which I cannot talk about, but the the most crazy merger studies so were done. uh and at the end uh they
Transforming Kia's Brand Perception in Europe
00:02:03
Speaker
they basically decided that we're going to help gm but chrysler has to find a foreign partner and uh that was then fiat that came and so in the the first ah studies my my team was heavily involved anyway my phone rang it was a headhunter from frankfurt russell reynolds and they say listen we have this challenger brand as you said and um we want somebody to
00:02:30
Speaker
to change the marketing there in the whole perception. And so we talked a little bit. And in my one of my first interviews, they asked me, what do you think about Kia? And I asked them, listen, are you're going to get it from me straight. do you really want to know ah what I think about Kia?
00:02:44
Speaker
They said, yep. I said, they're butt ugly cars with bad quality. but they're dirt cheap. And he said exactly right. And that's exactly the image that we have. And that is exactly what we have to move out of this perception area, because one day the Chinese are going to come and they're going to occupy the space. So very smart, forward thinking.
00:03:09
Speaker
And basically they said, well, we're changing everything, right? We're going to get more European design. So the European Design Center in Frankfurt, they hired an Audi designer, a gentleman called Peter Schreier, who did the Audi TT, for example, the A6, et cetera, the A4.
00:03:27
Speaker
And it changed it from a very jab Asian Korean look, ah you know, with a lot of chrome and bang and in your face, bling, bling stuff to very simplistic Audi, Apple type design where there was no bling, bling at all and very simplistic. And if you look at Kia, they still look very much like that.
00:03:47
Speaker
So it was one thing. Secondly, they said, we're going to do better engineering. We're hiring European engineers, et cetera, because this was for the European function. excuse me, ah to do better road holding and everything that's important for the Europeans.
00:04:01
Speaker
Thirdly, we want to improve the quality are investing. or We just built a brand new factory in Slovakia. And yeah so um when they flew me out there, I was used to Jefferson North assembly plant, you know, when you walked in there, ah you thought I thought I walked in into a recording of an MTV video for gangster rappers. Right.
00:04:24
Speaker
i know Very rough and and F this and F that and things like that. And I walked into that Kia factory and I thought they produced yogurt or medicines or something like that. It was so clean. It was a wooden floor that had the white things.
00:04:38
Speaker
It was like day and night, hyper modern. ah Really, very cool. And then they said, so we have the design, we have the engineering, we have the quality. And now we also have to change the marketing.
Cultural Differences: Korea vs. Japan in the Auto Industry
00:04:52
Speaker
And that should be you. And first I was a bit hesitant because.
00:04:57
Speaker
i also How can I say i have my contacts and working as a non-Korean in a Korean company can have some some challenges, but still I thought, OK, this is a cool challenge. So I went.
00:05:09
Speaker
in And I looked at all that and everything was fine. and but And I'll give you an example how different the Korean culture is with Japanese, because I thought like, OK, I have this down. right I know the Japanese inside out with my ah Hiroshima experience and Mazda exhibit, they're kind of the same. Big mistake.
00:05:29
Speaker
Certain things are very similar indeed, right? this is It's Confucius who influenced their thinking, the hierarchy thinking, respect for elderly age, things like that. It's all the same, but many things are very different.
00:05:43
Speaker
As I said, how... um conservative and risk avoiding and very analytical till the very last detail the Japanese were ah the Koreans are much different very much more risk-taking very fast and and ah very aggressive let's go for it so very interesting so I'll give you a little example I arrived there in 2009 and yeah so We did big consumer clinics and things like that. So what do you think about Kia? What what do you know?
00:06:18
Speaker
And some people are like, IKEA? Is that the Swedish furniture store? They hadn't even heard of it, right? So that's one thing. Then if they heard of it, they said exactly what I said. ah but They're ugly. No, I don't want to look at them. And we showed them the new concepts, right? The new design. And they were like, wow, that's our sexy cars, right? So that's very cool.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, but then, especially in Germany, ah the interior will be hard, scratchy, plastic, typical Asian, cheap stuff. right by So we showed them the inside. They go, oh, wow, it's all padded and chrome rings and and with leather stitching around the the steering wheel and things like that.
00:06:54
Speaker
All very cool, very cool. Then they said, Yeah, but it all looks good, but it's going to drive really bad. If I drive on the highway, it's going to rattle. going to be unstable. The wipers are going to vibrate. All these things that I like in Germany.
00:07:06
Speaker
Then we said, no, let's do some test drives. We did that.
Marketing Strategies and the 7-Year Warranty Initiative
00:07:10
Speaker
And they were like, wow, this thing really works, right? So every single argument that they said why they shouldn't buy a Kia, we could objectively rebuke.
00:07:21
Speaker
Design, no, it is. The interior, here it is. The engineering, here it is. And then came the very last one, which was very difficult to rebuke. They said, yeah, but this is all fine. But they're not going to last long.
00:07:35
Speaker
After a couple of years, they're going to rattle. They're going to drive bad. I'm going have mechanical problems. The parts are going to be expensive or not available.
00:07:46
Speaker
and That's trust, right? Because it's future. You can't rebuke it now. So I was thinking, like what can we do to rebuke that? And then the idea that I had to together with with my boss there was I want the longest warranty on the European market.
00:08:02
Speaker
It will take away the final argument. So we did a study. So the EU legal ah minimum is two years. So you need two years warranty by law in every EU country. That's EU law, EU regulation.
00:08:15
Speaker
Some did three. a few, I think Toyota and some countries, Hyundai did five. And I said, I want seven years warranty. That's what I want. So we went forward with that.
00:08:26
Speaker
The whole company in Seoul went on their back feet and said, you're totally crazy, ah which to me was an indication that I was probably right. right so ah So it encouraged me to go even further because it's a big risk and it can become very expensive if your cars are indeed bad and start breaking down after four, five, six years and you have to pay all this, the warranty costs will probably kill you.
00:08:51
Speaker
But we went forward to it and then again, it's what I said before is sometimes it's personal connections and it's how you perceive my boss there because I was the on the second level. We had three VPs ah in Europe, one for after sales, one for sales and one for marketing and product planning. And that was me.
00:09:08
Speaker
ah So I also did all the communications, PR, advertising, TV ads, the whole enchilada basically. And and then I had ah an an elder gentleman who was just before retirement, a Korean guy, Mr. S.Y. Kim, very career long guy. And he knew the CEO, et etc. I'll help you navigate to bring this crazy idea through the big um, hallways, uh, in Seoul, in the headquarters. And he basically took me by the hand and we went ah for it.
00:09:39
Speaker
and And now comes the speed, right? This is a big one. So we did, i started in May. We did the research in June, 2009. two thousand nine I came to the conclusion in July, August, middle of August, 2009. I, we told them this is our idea.
00:09:56
Speaker
One day later, they told us we are totally crazy, never going to happen. We started doing this in November, end of November, 2009. It was approved in the board because this is a big, big one, right?
00:10:09
Speaker
It was approved. I already had TV crews ready in in Prague, in Czechoslovakia, to do a very funny TV ad. You can actually look at it where it says seven is better than two.
00:10:20
Speaker
That's what big scientists came to the conclusion. It's actually very funny. And January 10 or 9 in 2010, we went live with a $30 million dollars TV ad campaign all over Europe, and it basically took off from there.
00:10:35
Speaker
And I think this put Kia on the map. We started growing in a down market because the market in Europe was still suffering ah from the aftermath of the the global financial crisis. right Normally, the European car market has a SAR of about 15 million. It went down to 12 or 11.8.
00:10:54
Speaker
But Kia, we went up from 220,000 per year to over 300,000 in a down market. So we were the new kid on the block winning. um the the It was also transferable, this or this still transferable, this warranty. So it means when you buy a four year old Kia, you have still three years warranty, which is more than a new Volkswagen, for example, or a new any car.
00:11:18
Speaker
That increased the resale value, which made us ah was a door opener. for leasing rates to go into the company car and leasing market, which was another big, big deal. So listen, I'm but i'm very proud of that. It's still there.
Cultural Work Ethic: Korean Dedication vs. European Work-Life Balance
00:11:34
Speaker
And I think Kia now is last year, they sold five hundred eighty thousand. ah in Europe together with their sister brand in with Hyundai, which is roughly the same. So over a million cars in the European car market. And Kia is right now after Ferrari, the second most at this moment, the second most profitable car brand in the world with the highest EBITDA margin.
00:11:58
Speaker
So they do it really, really well, not only in Europe, globally, also in the United States. doing well. So yeah, I was part of of that machine. ah But they are talking i mean this is was the fun part and all the stuff that I talked about and all the successes, but it was very difficult. So the the Korean way, as I said, is very aggressive, very fast. The the first word I i learned and in Korea was palipale, means quick, quick.
00:12:27
Speaker
Hush, hush and chop chop, like the French say. And it was like that. and So you go, they work really hard, very diligent and they really go for it. And but yeah you can see it. um and I mean, the Korea and in the mid 50s was still a poor country. ah The war, the Korean War just started there.
00:12:47
Speaker
they had hunger, basically. They had food shortages in the mid 50s. So they're 10 years behind of Europe ah after the Second World War to build up. And they came from nothing. And now look at Hyundai, Kia, Samsung, LG, really giant ones and with a very small nation.
00:13:05
Speaker
And they they're really going for it. Very successful, very admirable, but sometimes also not easy. A lot of ah cultural ah differences,
00:13:17
Speaker
ah The Asian culture in general is command and and execute. The Korean, what I say, is kind of army, the Asian one. When the boss says something, you don't challenge the boss. You do it before.
00:13:29
Speaker
Maybe the Japanese call it nimawashi, means the meeting before the meeting. But in the meeting, you never challenge it. Where in America, you can this this disagree with people. Or in the Western culture, that you don't do that.
00:13:42
Speaker
So I would say that's army. If that's army style of ah of operating the Asian culture, the Korean culture is US Marine Corps. So it is when the lieutenant says we're going to take this hill, there is no debate club why this hill and which hill, you just take take the hill, right?
00:13:59
Speaker
And that is really good if it's the right hill. like If it's the wrong hill, they perfectly execute with blood, sweat and tears something totally wrong.
00:14:11
Speaker
which hasn't ah happened, ah but it or not on my watch or while I was there. ah But also, I have to say they are extremely flexible and can change a strategic plan on a dime if necessary.
00:14:26
Speaker
So they're ah very I liked their business culture. Actually, it was not always difficult, not always easy to work ah for them because
Reflections on Cross-Cultural Experiences
00:14:35
Speaker
it was still a very uh dominant Korean culture they were not international companies when I was there from 2009 till 2014 it was not an international or global company there were Korean companies acting globally and I was like the first wave that was the first time that my level type of people were non-Koreans so it kind of an experiment and you have all the friction with the old establishment who still wants to to to get control or they didn't want to let go and that sometimes gives gives some friction but
00:15:07
Speaker
Overall, it it's ai it was fantastic. And I mean, looked if you just look at the cars that they brought out, ah the Seed, the Sportage, the Sorento, I mean, fantastic cars now also with their EVs.
00:15:21
Speaker
They have really good technology. They invest in their technology center, their tech center. ah there They have a special tech center, Nabuc it's called, for all future oriented drive tanks. Already in 2010, they were talking about battery electric vehicles, researching it.
00:15:38
Speaker
They were looking at hydrogen vehicles. So they are very... yeah very interesting company. And yeah, and so they're together with Hyundai. So they do platform sharing, components sharing, etc. But different brand possibilities or positioning, although that's maybe sometimes a little bit an issue because they fish a little bit in the same pond, right? So they they yeah They appeal to the same customers. But still, if you add them both up, as I said, over a million cars in Europe, that's quite quite remarkable if you see where they where they're coming from.
00:16:10
Speaker
Only 15 years ago, i so very, very fast, really, really good. It's quite quite interesting. How does that mesh up, though, in Europe? I can't think of two cultures being more different.
00:16:22
Speaker
you know In Europe, you have... ever more discussions or actually implementations of 35 hour work weeks. And in South Korea, you have incredibly long work hours um dedicated to the office and and working really in ah in ah in a very hard way.
00:16:39
Speaker
I'm not saying Europeans don't work. They're quite efficient. all But but there there's definitely mismatch. Big time. Yeah, listen, a 35 hour work week in Korea, then probably they think you had half a week off, huh?
00:16:51
Speaker
So um it's um yeah it's it's very hard working, although actually I'm now I still have a lot of friends who regularly go there. Apparently also with the new generation, et etc. is changing a little bit. They see it was a problem.
00:17:04
Speaker
But when I was there, it was incredible. So it's eight o'clock in the morning. They're there. And if you go home at 8 p.m., they look at you as if you took half a day off. and then they still work and then at 9 30 they all go out together to the korean barbecue and then they go drinking etc and they're home at midnight and then the next day they go back and they come in on saturdays and sundays so it's very hard working yeah this was complicated yeah especially in germany and germany of all the the western countries i would say works the least the least hours that's official labor so this is not just
00:17:39
Speaker
something that I say to be interesting and in in the bar, in the pub. This is official ah numbers. ah They have the most vacation, etc. So in Germany, it was very normal on Friday afternoon, 2 p.m. If it's a sunny weekend, they're gone. So 2.30 and and the the Koreans will be sitting there till 8 even on a sunny Friday afternoon.
00:18:01
Speaker
ah Yeah, it's but you know what? They knew that, the Korean people who came to Europe, and they respected that. They were not like, why are you not like us? they I never heard that.
00:18:12
Speaker
So they they respected it, that we were different, and we were doing different. We also got to good things done. But sometimes, yeah, it it leads to to funny situations. I can give you some anecdotes. We all had coordinators. Coordinators were people, officially, they were put in place to help you discuss with the headquarter because their English is not good. that's Yes, they're just shadow management, right? They sit on your shoulder and they look to what you were doing as as a non-coordinator. And these coordinators, they were sometimes sitting there and they would get a request from, I don't know, headquarter and say, I need this and this and this data.
00:18:48
Speaker
They don't have these data, these coordinates. They will have to ask me if, like, for example, ad spend per car line or something like that, what's the latest, whatever it might be. They to ask me. I have to ask the people in the country. So we have to put that all together. This takes a day or something.
00:19:03
Speaker
And then you should do that. And if you ask it on a Friday afternoon at 4 p.m., all the local stuff is gone and all the countries as well, the answer should be, sorry, we can't do that. We'll get back to you on Tuesday. That's the right rational answer.
00:19:17
Speaker
that answer doesn't fit in the Korean culture. There is no no. You will report it because the boss asked it by Sunday morning or by Monday morning. You can't call the European staff in on the weekend because they'll tell you, yeah, go and fly a kite. I'm not doing this or it's just not done.
00:19:34
Speaker
So they make them up. They think, they they they take some old figures. They they then index it with a thing and then they report something. The most important was to report something.
00:19:47
Speaker
that it's in time. And then these numbers that I didn't, then they don't tell you about it or vaguely and you kind of forget about it. And then three weeks later or three months later or something like that on the Geneva Motor Show on the Frankfurt or Paris Motor Show, the top management client, you would do big reviews and I would present something on ad spend per car line.
00:20:06
Speaker
And then suddenly the CEO would go in his big binder and go, ah Benny, sorry, sorry, sorry, the numbers because he got prepared. i have totally different numbers. You say it's like, I don't know, 800 per, I don't know, Sorrento, and here it says 1100, and what is the... I don't recognize this data. Where did this data come from? it And you would look around and you see all the coordinators suddenly having to do and important SMS or looking at their shoes.
00:20:33
Speaker
It was like these funny moments ah where you see these cultural clashes, right? In in the in the Korean culture thing, it's like you have to do this by then, even if it's impossible ah to do it in ah in a good way.
00:20:46
Speaker
You do it fast than in a mediocre way. It's it's okay. but but So that was funny. Then you corrected. This is now a very okay i say negative example. Don't get me wrong that I'm saying that there's a lot of fake numbers. But this is a real typical example of a cultural ah difference. Right. And that that was quite interesting. But somehow we found a way to to work together.
00:21:10
Speaker
Listen, I was also stationed in in Germany. And as you said, the German culture is very different. We had a lot of Germans, but still it was very international operation. I was very proud of it. I still remember What a diverse team that I had. In Chrysler Europe, I had, I think, a team of 35 people, 35-ish people, and i still remember the number. We had 13 different passports.
00:21:31
Speaker
So from ah Finland, Spain, Italy, there was an Indian guy, there was an American, Thai guy, looks Romanian, Bulgarian, all kind of stuff, a Brit guy.
00:21:46
Speaker
And that that actually made it made it fun. So, yeah, very, very interesting times and nice to be part of of an absolute. So when I growing a franchise that came from nothing from two hundred twenty thousand per year.
00:22:03
Speaker
And when I left, we were over three hundred thousand when I left ten years ago. Now they're over five hundred thousand. You you can see the progression in a stale market. Even when I was there, it was still going down a little bit because it was recovering the market was recovering from the global financial crisis so quite interesting if you do the right thing if you that just shows if you have the right offer the right product uh that hits what people want and you offer that with with the good Honest price, it shouldn't have to be super discount, but the honest price, it you you you will thrive.
00:22:34
Speaker
You will thrive for sure. And did they listen with open ears with regards to the requirements for Europe? ah Because I think there are some models that are unique to Europe that are not sold in the United States, for example. very, very much. Europe was a big part of their portfolio.
00:22:51
Speaker
ah Listen, Korea is a small market. That was the opposite of Chrysler. Chrysler had a huge domestic market and they could afford to be like, yeah, whatever kind of thing, which they didn't. But somehow, hey,
00:23:05
Speaker
Benny, we sell two hundred two million cars here. What are you coming here with your 200,000 international, right? So that was a little bit. they In Korea, this was not. Korea is a tiny market, right? The Korean market is, ah I don't know, one million cars or two million cars or something like that. It's small.
00:23:23
Speaker
Europe and America together are 30 million. And then China now is another 30 million. So or twenty five million so it is it was very different. So they had to be more outward looking, even more than the Japanese. word Because the Japanese have also a medium sized domestic market, I would say, with about five million or something like that.
00:23:42
Speaker
The Korean is tiny. Korean market. So you can't survive on Korea alone. Their mindset was export. We need to export and sell to other countries to be thriving here internally and and bring the money here, have investments here, have employment here. and and and grow grow the company so yeah yeah they were very early and they they understood that and they looked at uh well china is everybody has to go to china because the chinese government built it up over time with tariffs and and and things like that but uh in europe and and america they said we need to be there and they did exactly the same strategy they looked um um
00:24:21
Speaker
in Europe at two different countries, ah but put the plants close to them so they can have one supplier park. So for example, kia chose Slovakia and Hyuna chose Czech.
00:24:33
Speaker
but they're very close to each other. And then you have a common supplier park. And then you can get subsidies from one government, from the Slovakian government, and you can get some subsidies from the other ah government. I think in America, they did that the same, not on a country level, but on a state level. But Hyundai and Kia are in two different states, but not far from each other.
00:24:51
Speaker
And they get local subsidies here, they get local subsidies there, and put a supplier park right in the middle. Very well-planned, and disciplined execution also of that. I would say that they're really good, the Koreans. That's a nation to watch and companies to watch, I would say.
00:25:11
Speaker
Yeah, no, I completely agree. and I think with the um electric vehicle ah revolution, if you want to call it that, ah It's interesting to see how Kia and also Hyundai, but maybe possibly to a slightly lesser degree, have taken a real leading role in the development of electric vehicles, which I think was unexpected. It it was not something you would have predicted 10 years ago.
00:25:36
Speaker
It was unexpected for people like you and the outside was not expected for me. Ten years ago already 2010. I visited there. They have ah a big R&D center, a big like General Motors has the Warren Tech Center. You know, they have one right footer for all their stuff.
00:25:52
Speaker
But then they have a special one. was called Nabuc, was maybe 30 kilometers away, a whole campus. only on future drivetrains already back in 2010. Battery electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles and all kinds of stuff that they're looking at.
00:26:08
Speaker
So very forward looking and we're ready to put money in there as well. So, yeah, quite, quite amazing. But indeed, they they have really, really great EV technology. I think also ah but well China is a whole different level. We can talk a little bit about China afterwards.
00:26:26
Speaker
But um from the non-Chinese, they're probably in the lead for battery technology. If you see LG Chem and things like that. They're very, and and also with their vehicles. of So Kia and Hyundai have great EV vehicles with great range, ah fast charging, good technology.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah, that kind of stuff that ah that that will help people overcome the step to electrification. And because there is still ah a big step and we can talk about that a little bit if you want as well.
00:26:56
Speaker
There's still big steps to be done. now It's not going to be 100% BEVs with a snap of a finger. It's a long trajectory, I would say. Correct. It's a long path. we didn't We didn't go from horses to cars with a gas station on every corner in a decade.
00:27:14
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. So, Benny, it's ah about 2014 and you've been with Kia for about five years in Europe, and then you had the opportunity to join General Motors and you had expressed an interest in China.
00:27:31
Speaker
China was the the hottest thing. It was growing relentlessly. um Companies had been setting up their operations there for the past decade, and this opportunity presented itself.
00:27:43
Speaker
How did that happen? And, you know, I'd be interested about your first impressions on how different was it working ah in China, but for a Western company, but living in Shanghai.
00:27:55
Speaker
and How did this happen? It was ah like, like it often happens. It's through personal connections. A good friend of mine, an ex colleague of mine, I was working at the time at European headquarters of General Motors Opel in Frankfurt.
00:28:09
Speaker
And we just discussed a little bit and he circulated my CV and one thing led to the other. And before you know it, they offered me to be the vice president of product planning and product strategy in China, which is quite a big deal at the time. Now, China has changed a little bit after COVID, etc. But you have to think back in 2013, 2014. This was 2014. China was the hot ticket in town.
00:28:33
Speaker
ah china was the hot ticket in town um If you said in any car company or any company in the world, we have a senior or mid level or senior position, which was the case in in in my case, available in Shanghai, you had 50 people lining up at the door of HR who want to go.
00:28:52
Speaker
That's very different now. And now there's nobody. There's very young people or very old people. But people with families don't go anymore because they're afraid to something might happen or there there was just like this. Oh my God, with with with what happened with COVID and dynamic zero policies there.
00:29:08
Speaker
Anyway, so this was the hot ticket. so There were policies in place. I know ah in in some OEMs that if you have no China experience, you can never get a C-suite job. That's it.
00:29:21
Speaker
It's logical. It's the largest car market in the world and fast growing, et cetera. So if that's for cars now, but it's probably the largest market for anything. in the world. And if you don't have exposure, you don't know your largest market. I mean, then you you can't be a C-suite guy, right? Or c C-suite person.
00:29:37
Speaker
I should say. So anyway, that was quite, quite interesting. So and it was China that attracted me. It was really, really China that attracted me. And I knew that the American way. I knew urban Hills, et cetera. So General Motors is a lot of similarities. it's It's different in a way, but in the big scheme of things from 30,000 feet, this is kind of the same. i the The platform, team and the engineers and the way the the development system works and the Yeah, on a business trip, like I didn't even need GPS because I can drive around to Detroit, Southeast Michigan area without anything. It all helps.
00:30:13
Speaker
So, yeah, so I went there, but very different scale. and The scale was just different. So I just give you an example. I told you when I started with Kia, we were selling 220,000 cars a year.
00:30:25
Speaker
Then we were selling just over 300,000. And I remember us. ah celebrating in Kia, having a celebration because we hit the 300,000 mark at a certain moment.
00:30:36
Speaker
And then I went to GM and we were also selling 300,000 cars, but it was per month. So it was a very different, like what? that Very different constellation, many factories, 60,000 employees, of very, very different level of of operations, giant, giant operations.
00:30:59
Speaker
And um with ah joint ventures, right? Very different also. You had joint venture. That's how how China set up their their business was a long term plan that started 20 years before or something like that.
00:31:12
Speaker
You had to have their first protect their market, right? Because that was the only thing they had on offer is that large market with high tariffs. Then you come and produce there. Then they say you can produce here, but it has to be a joint venture.
00:31:23
Speaker
And then the government said, but just production there is not enough. You have to also do value added stuff here like R&D. So we put up on a huge R&D, also joint venture. And at the time, by the way, you can never be the boss, only 49%. 51% is the minimum for the Chinese partner,
00:31:44
Speaker
for the western part So Volkswagen, 10-hour motors, we set up giant operations there with wind tunnels and design centers and labs and things like that. And we taught them everything.
00:31:56
Speaker
We taught them everything. They know because they didn't know anything and they wanted to go fast. And that's the advantage, I would say, of the political and the society and the economy economical system in China.
00:32:09
Speaker
Don't get me wrong. I'm not propagating anything. I'm just analyzing is that you can do long-term stuff. ah You don't have every four years an election and one goes right and then the other one goes left and says the previous one was totally ridiculous. And then the other one comes in.
00:32:23
Speaker
You don't have all this this razzmatazz. In China, it's very long term. And then you can go fast and create wealth and create industrial might very quickly because you have consistent policies and the government and the the the companies work hand in hand and not against each other and not changing direction every four or five years.
00:32:41
Speaker
So that was the the the big advantage there. But it was amazing. and So we were one of the market leaders, General Motors there with 15 percent combined with all the brands, with five brands, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, which was a big brand there, and then two local brands, Wuling and Bojong.
00:33:00
Speaker
And with them, we had 15 percent market share. Volkswagen had also 15 percent market share. And they were both partnering with SAIC, S-A-I-C. So that was a giant that is a giant company that covered at that time 30 percent of the market. So very interesting to work with the Chinese partners, but very different Chrysler Europe, where we had basically American vehicles adopted a little bit and then did it here.
00:33:25
Speaker
Here it was like also the Chinese had a big investment. had a big say. There was a lot of tension back and forth. The Chinese wanted to develop everything for China. The Americans still wanted to have world cars or world platforms and sharing as much as possible, which is logical from both sides. And there was always this tension. So quite interesting. But um it was um basically a very profitable business ah for the American car and the Western car companies.
00:33:56
Speaker
But I remember And I was not, after that, I was not very popular, or at that moment, I was not very popular with ah the American Managing General Motors standing up, doing a presentation, which is something that I like and I'm pretty good at, I should say, about the motor show, the Shanghai Motor Show, to all the staff, there were like 200 Chinese.
00:34:15
Speaker
And I had one slide, and I called it The Red Dragon is Coming. And I predicted back then, that was 2015 or something like that. I saw the first seeds of these Chinese manufacturers, how they were getting better with their own brands, their design, etc. I said, this is something you will not be able to stop.
00:34:39
Speaker
These guys are going to come. And then the CFO and my boss at the time, Benny, so pessimistic. We're going to sell Burex and Chevrolet forever. Well, I think again, look at it now.
00:34:50
Speaker
the All the Western manufacturers have been basically booted out of the top 10 and have are really struggling because the Chinese brands and the Chinese technology, and especially with BEVs, is coming up. So very interesting.
00:35:05
Speaker
um From a cultural point of view, I thought China was fascinating. Again, very different to Japan and very different to Korea. ah In certain ways, more modern.
00:35:18
Speaker
And this is shocking because you think like, oh my God, a communist country, they've been asleep forever. and And that's like the common perception. It's not the communism. Sometimes I'm not a fan of communism at all, but has some, like I said, everything as yin and yang, pros and cons, has some advantages. One of the advantages is the position of the woman.
00:35:39
Speaker
In Korea and in Japan, When I went to Korea, even in the 90s, looked around me, a lot of very good-looking young girls, but never once, 30, 35, you didn't see any. They were all guys.
00:35:52
Speaker
They come there, they work, work, work, they meet, they get married, and then the women stays at home. Very 1950s traditional way of thinking. In China, you sit across very senior people from SAIC, which 50 year old women. So I kind of liked it. I thought that was very interesting aspect.
00:36:13
Speaker
And that's because of their communist heritage where the communist philosophy was you have to work for the state and to make China great and to make society great and everybody has to contribute to also women, which is actually quite logical. So I thought that was quite interesting.
00:36:29
Speaker
ah Second difference was I felt ah is they were very open to learn. Very, very, very open. They were very willing to learn. They knew they came from nothing. They knew they have to go fast and they are willing to take input from everywhere. So you never heard like, yeah, but this is why we do it in China and we don't care.
00:36:54
Speaker
so So maybe sometimes you heard that a little bit in the Japanese way or the Korean way. In China, you never had this this this arrogance like we are we know everything.
00:37:04
Speaker
I found them quite open, ah but also very focused. And then, you know, the hard work, the hierarchy, when the boss says something, that's it. And you do it. um That is the same that is that runs through them.
00:37:18
Speaker
But yeah, I really liked it there. And at the time, it was really fun to be there. and When I was in global calls wait with GM, you know, you had somebody in my position in North America, in Detroit, in South America, in Sao Paulo, then with Opel, who was at the time still part of the GM empire, ah was in in Frankfurt and then me in Shanghai and in many like in Europe and we were like in America was like, yeah which plants are we going to like, are we going to be able to fill it in Europe? Was what like, which plants are we going to close?
00:37:53
Speaker
And in China is what? How many plants are we going to build? Right. So it was a very different. but It was still on the up. Everything was booming. ah It changed also a little bit, but ah you could you could tell already. And a few observations when I came there. So you think about China like, oh, my God, they're going to be so behind. It's going to be primitive, etc. Forget it. though Even in 2014, I already went to China business before when you lived there.
00:38:22
Speaker
You think you're so advanced with your American way of living. And then you see there's a whole world out there that you don't even know. I still remember. Like, oh, here, credit card, you take credit cards, right? And they went like, oh, no, no, no. And I thought, oh, my God, it's going to be cash. No, no, no, no. They're already paid by phone.
00:38:40
Speaker
An American in 2050 had no idea what it was paying by phone. Like, we thought we were so advanced we without credit cards. Chinese were already, that's already called an old hat. So digitally, extremely advanced, ah very into that.
00:38:55
Speaker
And that is now translating into the vehicles. um If you look at at a Chinese vehicles, you could see that already coming. there the The Chinese have never had this ownership experience where everybody owns a car, etc. Because they were too poor when we already had that in Europe and in America.
00:39:12
Speaker
And they immediately went to like ah mobility 2.0, right? they They own cars, they do, but they use a lot of ah Uber is not there, but they have their their own Ubers, let's call it like that.
00:39:23
Speaker
There are users of that. um Uber Eats, etc. i'm like This was not existing yet in in in the US. It was already there. They were called Sherpas. You could order online and you had this orange ah colored overall ah people on their little electric motorbikes and they went to any restaurant that you want and brought you the food at home and things like that.
00:39:45
Speaker
Things that I've never seen before. So they were This digital um connection with the real world and service economy, etc. They are very, very into that.
00:39:56
Speaker
And you can see that now in in their cars. I mean, they learned everything from traditional car making from Volkswagen, General Motors and all the others. And they're now good at it. day They hire good designers. They have great design, et etc. But you should see the interfaces of the Chinese cars now. If you go, you should really go to the Shanghai Motor Show. It now just passed. It was in April.
00:40:20
Speaker
But to other... uh motor shows and look at some of these chinese vehicles it's it's phenomenal it screens everywhere it's interactive you can do whatever you want they're really really advanced so they're software defined so you have a software as as the base and you build a car around it where the european way it's normal and the american way is you have a vehicle and then you add some software and digital services to it and it's It's really, really amazing. and And to be honest, last time I was in China was in December.
00:40:53
Speaker
i was at a World New Energy Vehicle Conference in Hainan Island. And that was like um it morphed into a mini motor show. And there were all these brands. It's like every month there seemed to be like a new. It it seems like Detroit in the 1910s. There were like new brands popping up for left and right. The same is true in China.
00:41:12
Speaker
And you see some of these vehicles. Then there was also Audi and BMW and Mercedes and you go there and honestly, you feel like you're going back in time. ah so and and and the American brands didn't even bother to show up, to be honest. And so we I think we have to be very careful in the West.
00:41:34
Speaker
We have to look at what's going on there, because what's what the customers like there to a certain extent, the customers also like here. It's a young generation. It's a digital.
00:41:44
Speaker
ah generation. It's a generation that grew up with smartphones that are the future buyers. And you have to make this very interconnected and working very well.
00:41:56
Speaker
And then, yeah, they have the advantage of not having to do that with internal combustion engines, although they're pretty good at that as well. But they're not hyper competitive. But that whole thing goes away when you go into BEVs and also fuel cell vehicles. there They have five brands already.
00:42:13
Speaker
ah with fuel cell vehicles and that could also become a market reality. So very interesting to to work in China, also to live there, to travel there, to get to know the country.
00:42:25
Speaker
And if you can, I can highly recommend a trip to China and especially visit Shanghai. It's called the New New York. It's very cool. ah it's Fascinating. it's It's hard to imagine how quickly the country has developed, right?
00:42:40
Speaker
When you talk about it's it's the last 25 to 30 years, the the dramatic changes that they've experienced there. Speaking of change, you know you've gone through four completely different companies, four completely different brands at different stages in their development.
00:43:01
Speaker
which which ones left the biggest impression on you? I mean, what what have you kept and taken to heart from these different experiences? And I know this is a really difficult question. That is a very tricky question. I think all of them had a place in time in my life, which were very important, the the companies, the countries, et cetera.
00:43:22
Speaker
But I would honestly say from a company, pure company point of view, it was a Chrysler. i I really liked working at Chrysler at Chrysler Europe and my time in Auburn Hills, also when I was the managing director in in Switzerland.
00:43:41
Speaker
That was just a very good time. And that doesn't mean all the others were not good times. Kia was fantastic. China was fantastic. Mazda was great, but I was young, good looking and poor. And so it was very different from now.
00:43:56
Speaker
I'm still poor, but the two others have gone. ah But Yeah, so it had all their their places. um But Chrysler was very special because it was this very, this American behemoth, very America orientated.
00:44:11
Speaker
And then ah trying to make them adopt and and expand the international business was actually very cool. And I just liked the culture there. I thought the culture at Chrysler was fantastic. And as I said, I've always had a very special place in my heart for America and everything Americana. And that was as Americana as it got. So yeah, I loved it a lot.
00:44:36
Speaker
ah That's fantastic. it's It's some certainly a different experience in in each of the four locations or four different companies. So as we start to wind down the episode, Benny, I just wanted to see if you had any kind of final words that you'd like to imbue upon the audience, ah something that you wanted to share from the heart with them that you thought is is key to the successes that you've had in these in these four different companies, four different dramatically different cultural experiences.
00:45:08
Speaker
My advice would be, and and my motto in life is is is and looking back, And I had a very fantastic professional life. I couldn't, I mean, if I would have to do it all over again, I would do it exactly exactly the same. um The first thing i would say to younger people is follow your heart. Do something that you really, really like.
00:45:32
Speaker
I have been a car guy and a car kid since I was super young. I was driving on my little bicycle in my shorts in Germany. And on Tuesday or Wednesday, Automoto and Sport came out. And I had five Deutschmarks from my mother or my father.
00:45:51
Speaker
biked to the little kiosk. And then I could read this for a whole week and all the articles and everything. and It was just fantastic. i Cars, cars, cars, cars. I just love cars and mobility and the whole thing that comes with it.
00:46:05
Speaker
And the then to be able to work in that is just fantastic. Then you just go for it, right? And you give it your all. And yeah, so that that's one thing. The second thing I would say is ah don't be afraid your career. Don't be afraid to jump.
00:46:23
Speaker
uh i did a lot of jobs right that's quite something i to uproot a family from belgium and go to auburn hills then from auburn hills we went to zurich switzerland i became the the managing director of of chrysler in switzerland then back to auburn hills then from auburn hills to frankfurt working for the korean and from frankfurt to shanghai and then from shanghai to london all this with with kids growing up etc ah But it all works. They're fine.
00:46:50
Speaker
and Everybody's fine. And actually, it's it works. So don't be afraid to jump. Don't be too conservative. And the third point, I would like to say, is really reflecting upon my life and and and all my experiences. And um the end of the day, people are people.
00:47:10
Speaker
We are all the same. We all want the same. We have the same values. We want to... or the same goals in life, I should say. We want to be happy.
00:47:21
Speaker
I think everybody wants it, regardless which culture. We want to be happy. We want to have a good relationship with our partners or spouses, etc. ah We want our children to be healthy, to be happy, to become good people. We want our children to do well.
00:47:37
Speaker
ah We want our parents to be healthy and have a long and healthy relationship with each other. That, I found, is regardless which culture you work in, with it's it's the same so at the end we all have these shared human values and ah yeah just do be open-minded don't always think that your way is the best way and that's the way everybody should do it that is a very medieval way of thinking and it doesn't bring you forward
00:48:08
Speaker
ah There's good and bad in everything, in every culture, in every way of doing. There's pros and cons. And try to look for the good stuff ah in both in in in different ways of doing, in different cultures, in different corporate cultures, in different...
00:48:23
Speaker
country cultures, et cetera, and and and and family cultures and general country country cultures and try to look for the combination of these, right? I was talking before with the Germans analyzing themselves to that ah before because of all the details, which is very, very good, but sometimes makes you slow, right?
00:48:42
Speaker
And then the Americans sometimes go, okay, right, let's go. And what if you can combine these things, the fastness with the depth, other things, the the long-term view of of the the Asian way of doing things.
00:48:54
Speaker
So um I think there is ah good stuff to be found all over the world. ah Working with different cultures is fascinating. I would say try to get an international career.
00:49:05
Speaker
And if you don't get an international career, try to ah to travel for your job or travel privately. Go in with an open mind and open eyes and ears and try to look for good things ah in all the different aspects and and cultural aspects of life on the globe and try to combine them into something good. It's a fascinating world out there and the world is much bigger and much more fascinating than the ecosystem that you are operating in. That would be my wise words at the end of this conversation.
00:49:40
Speaker
Now, those are definitely heartfelt words and and you're absolutely correct. the The world is much more exciting when you go out and see it um I think with that, I think I will wind down the episode and i want to thank you, Benny, for joining us today. I am very sure that the listeners have enjoyed the two episodes that feature your vast experience and and how you talk about it in a very entertaining way.
00:50:07
Speaker
So thank you very much for for joining. Thank you very much. Well, with that, I wanna thank the listeners for tuning in this week, and I look forward to seeing you again next week.
00:50:22
Speaker
Until then, keep on driving. Thank you for joining us on today's journey. Please remember to like and subscribe to The Auto Ethnographer and leave us a rating or comment.
00:50:33
Speaker
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