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Raising Resilient Leaders: Modeling How to Overcome Rejection to Create a Successful Life - with Dr. Corey Seemiller
54 Plays4 months ago
Dr. Corey Seemiller joins Leanna for an inspiring and enlightening conversation this week! Corey is a leadership and higher education professor, author of 11 books, Gen Z expert, mom, avid hiker, podcast host, and an all-around amazing human.
Here are some highlights:
- Despite her many accomplishments, Corey shares that "rejection is the story of my life," and discusses how she perseveres through setbacks.
- How Corey integrates her daughter into her career and sees her as a partner in her success.
- Her perspective on time and success: "Time is going to pass whether you do with it what you want, and what I want to do with my time is to make great contributions to make the world a better place."
- Corey's passion for leadership and inclusion, and her belief that anyone can be a leader.
- How COVID led her to reflect, prioritize, and cut out the unnecessary, enhancing her life.
- Both Leanna and Corey’s Type A personalities evolving to embrace more spontaneity and reduce stress.
Full transcript available here.
Connect with Leanna here.
Connect with Corey here and tune into her podcast, Rock That Relationship!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to the Executive Coach for Moms podcast, where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home.
Meet Your Host: Leigh Ann Alaski McGrath
00:00:19
Speaker
I'm your host, Leigh Ann Alaski McGrath, former tech exec turned full-time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic and certified executive coach.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Corey C. Miller
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi everyone, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited for you to meet this guest. She is an old friend of mine and former coworker. and I feel so excited to reconnect with her and to bring her to the podcast. She's also a fellow podcast host. And so first of all, I will read her bio, but let me introduce her first. So hi, Dr. Corey C. Miller. Well, hello. So good to see you and talk to you and reconnect with you and be in the space with you. You too. Should I call you Dr. C. Miller or Corey? I think that we have crossed over the boundaries where you are welcome to call me Corey. I don't think you've ever called me anything but Corey.
00:01:13
Speaker
Let me read this bio. It might take me the whole episode, but i but let me tell you all about Cori because she's done so many amazing things. My version of her bio is that she is a total badass who knows a lot about a lot of things, especially leadership and Gen Z and a million other things
Dr. Miller's Work on Generation Z
00:01:32
Speaker
too. Anytime I talk to Cori, I learn something. So Dr. Cori C. Miller is a professor in the Department of Leadership Studies and Education and Organizations at Wright State University. teaching undergraduate courses in organizational leadership, as well as graduate courses in leadership development and student affairs and higher education. She is the author of the Student Leadership Competencies Guidebook and associated tools and assessments to help educators develop intentional curriculum that enhances leadership competency development. She has served as an issue editor for New Directions for Student Leadership, the co-chair for National Leadership Symposium,
00:02:09
Speaker
the Leadership Educational Academy, and an associate editor of the Journal of Leadership Studies. Dr. C. Miller also has a deep understanding of today's young adults. She is the co-author of several articles as well as four books on Generation Z. who are people born between 1995 and 2010, including Generation Z, a century in the making, Generation Z goes to college, Generation Z leads, and Generation Z learns. She also co-authored the Gen Z Voices on Voting research report and the Campus ah of Tomorrow report.
00:02:44
Speaker
Dr. C. Miller recently led the Gen Z Global Study where she worked with 91 research collaborators to better understand Generation Z in a post-COVID world. Participants from 81 countries took part in the study, and her book, Generation Z Around the World, was published by Emerald Publishing.
Balancing Career and Motherhood
00:03:01
Speaker
Her highly popular TED Talk on Generation Z at TEDx Dayton showcased how Generation Z is making a difference in the world. Her work has been featured on NPR and in the New York Times, as well as in several other news publications and academic journals. She has also been interviewed for podcasts as well as TV and radio shows worldwide. Wow, welcome.
00:03:23
Speaker
Oh my goodness. It's always so weird to listen to that. it's Well, but it's amazing because also you're such a wonderful person and so down to earth. And when I was reading your bio, and and obviously I know you've done all these amazing things, but to see it all in one place and in total you've published how many books? I've published 11. I've got two more in the queue right now. Yeah. And you're a tenured professor and doing all these speaking engagements. I guess I'm just curious like how do you feel about all of this? and but I love being on the go. I run a master's degree program and I always tell the prospective students when when they come on to my Zoom session I always say two years is going to pass and either you can be standing at graduation or not and that's how I live my life. Time is going to pass whether you do with it what you want and what I want to do with my time is to make great contributions to make the world a better place. And I do that through my writing and my teaching and my speaking and those kind of things. and And that's just how I like to show up. So there's no rest for the weary in my household. I'm always on the go and doing something. And that's just, time is going to pass whether I do something with it or not. So that's just how I live my life.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, and you're a mom. And I'm a mom, a 15-year-old daughter, yes. So how do you find time to kind of do all of this and enjoy it? Or I'm assuming you're enjoying it. I do enjoy it. Well, there's a couple things. One thing is that I've found ways to be incredibly productive, and that's been helpful. So I can do things early, really early in the morning. i I make very good use of my time. So that's one thing that's been helpful to me, to be able to try to fit a lot into a little time period. but The other thing I think from a parenting perspective that's been really helpful to me is that I really incorporated my daughter into my career, into my world. um As a matter of fact, you know, I'm going to be going just next week and doing a speaking engagement and she's coming with me. So whenever it permits with school schedules, I think she comes with me, she takes pictures. She's even, even as young as I think she was six, she was at an event passing out evaluations for me.
00:05:24
Speaker
She just likes to be included in in everything. and I do remember this one where I had to do two back-to-back sessions and we had a lunch break in between, but it was going to be the same exact session. and I spoke the first one and she sat there very quietly. She was about seven, sat there very quietly. Then we came back after lunch and I was getting prepared to do the second one. and She said, can I go do your microphone test? I said, yes, you can. so She gets up there and literally verbatim starts giving my entire talk. Oh my gosh. And I said, wow, you know, she's like, of course I listen. I know all of this stuff. And when I was preparing for my TED talk, she would listen to me even at, you know, like age, I think she was seven or eight at the time and she would listen and she'd say, mommy, you missed a word. You missed a word. So she's always been not just a part of what I do, but like she's been helpful, right? Like her, she's been contributory and she sees her role in my career as being not just like I'm have a career and I have a kid. Like she helps me with my career, even the littlest thing she can do. And so,
00:06:19
Speaker
It's been nice to be able to have that collaboration with my own daughter as long as she can remember it's always been like that. Yeah, I love that so much. It's like she's like a partner in your career. yeah I think sometimes um the way that society kind of looks at like working children, it's almost like they are mutually exclusive or like the children are like an inhibitor of the career. And you're saying like she's actually supporting your career in a positive way. Yeah, you know, it's interesting, too, because she knows all the details about it. Every single night when we have dinner, we talk about what are our highlights of the day, but we also talk about our lowlights. And, you know, I might be really open and say, you know, I had a difficult day with this or something happened. So she feels like I
Facing Rejection and Persistence
00:07:01
Speaker
trust her with some of that information. And I remember I have a book and I'm trying to get it to go. It's a totally different book than I've ever written before. It's a memoir.
00:07:09
Speaker
and I'm trying to get it published, and I've been pitching it out to agents, and rejection, rejection, rejection. I mean, that's the story of my life. It's just rejection, and you just I went in to tuck her into bed, and she saw that I looked a little distraught, and she said, what's wrong? And I said, I got another rejection. I said, I just really wish that there were like 100 agents just tripping over themselves just to pick up my book. And she looked at me, and she said, Mommy, you only need one. And I was like, you know what? You're so right. Like sometimes it just takes that. Like if I trust her enough to tell her like what is going on and not protect her and shield her from those things, you know, I mean, to to some extent that she can be an active partner. And she said that to me and I was like, I don't need a hundred people. I need one. She's absolutely right. in the And she goes, the right person will come along. And I was just like, ah how are you so wise? Like sometimes it just takes a second to just kind of ground yourself and say, hold on a second. She is a partner in this.
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah, I love that so much. As you know, I have a five-year-old daughter and she, similarly, at age appropriately, right, she's like, I'll say, I'm feeling really frustrated right now and she'll say, well, you know what Daniel Tiger says, mama, we need to take deep breath and gout to pour. And when we trust our our kids with real things and yeah Obviously, age appropriately, but I think sometimes maybe we assume that they can't handle you know a hard thing that's happening for us. But just like you're facing a rejection with publishing a book, I'm sure our kids are facing rejections at school and in relationships and things like that. And so just to know that that is a human experience and to see their parents experience that and be real about it, I think that's so cool. I love that.
00:08:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, and I mean, you know, I can give her as many talks as I want about maybe getting, you know, not getting picked for a team or whatever it might be at school and about how rejection hurts and all this stuff. But her actually watching me go through rejection, feel it, own it, then move forward and life goes on. Then she can see that rejection is just part of how things work. And so whether it's that or or something else, she's witnesses it. My parents did a great job. I mean, they were great people and they raised me well, but I do remember they really did try to protect me from everything. It was either they didn't think I would know enough to be even worth the conversation of like what happened at work today, or they were just protecting me from growing up stuff. And, you know, of course I don't tell her things that are, you know, like you're saying age, you know, I'm very age appropriate, but at the same time, it's like the relationship I have with her feels really different. It feels more kind of real. Like sometimes mommy isn't happy. Sometimes mommy had a bad day. It's okay. you know and and She knows that. and That's why like when we're at dinner, you know we always do highlights and lowlights. The lowlights are what's really key is, what do you wish went, maybe didn't go as you hoped or planned or was it disappointment or you know just something out of the ordinary that just set you back today? and We always talk about that because then we can say, okay, so like what are we going to do moving forward? and We talk about that too, so we acknowledge that. But that's really important just for her to see that as role modeling, I think. Yeah.
00:10:11
Speaker
I can't agree with that more. I love that. Makes it a more integrated experience overall, right? Like we have one life. We don't have this like work self and home self. It's all together. And I think that whenever, like you said, they see us going through it, then number one, they know that whenever they experience it, that it's a normal. It's not like they're the only ones because I think a lot of times that's a very human, way of thinking is we think like, I'm the only one who's ever experienced this. yeah Everyone else is doing this better than me. So they see that. And number two, I think like when we show up and we're maybe not our best selves or we're feeling upset or frustrated or disappointed about something that happened in our workday or our personal lives outside of our children, and then they see it without conversation
00:11:03
Speaker
I think a lot of times they just assume it's their fault, right? Like they must have caused this in some way. And I think that's calling out and sharing like what's actually going on and that it's not them that we're upset with. It's something else I think is so important. Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think it's also kind of piggybacking on that, the idea that in my case, if I'm transparent enough about my feelings or my day, I can also, in some ways, kind of frame why things might be happening the way they are. Listen, I've had a really hard day. I got some really bad news, and I'm really struggling today. We're just going to, we're literally going to eat over the kitchen sink tonight. Like like I need you to understand, you know, I mean, we don't really eat over the kitchen sink, but just like, i just so you, just so you understand like how the rest of the
Leadership Styles and Inclusivity
00:11:46
Speaker
night's going to play out. I need a little bit of space or I need to, go I do a lot of walking. I walk a lot and to kind of center myself. And so sometimes I say, you know,
00:11:56
Speaker
We're going to be, you know, on our own for the next hour. Go do what you need to do or whatever. I'm going to go. I need to go for a walk. And like she has context. She understands that that's important for me and has a better context of how things are playing out without having to own it. Like that feeling like, did I do something wrong? What? Why aren't we hanging out or why are we not having an elaborate dinner tonight? But just being able to say here are some of my needs, too. And I need to go get those met. That's part of it. Yeah. And it's modeling for for her of when she's in relationship with other people of being able to communicate her needs and being able to take that time but would like to notice, hey, I'm not um not where I want to be at this moment. I need to go center myself. I need to decide, you know, whatever whatever strategies work best for me, I need to do that and communicate that to somebody else and and that that's okay. That's okay to have those needs and that's okay to take care of yourself. I love that.
00:12:48
Speaker
I want to go back to one of the things you said about rejection because hearing your bio and then hearing you say, the story of my life is rejection. Sounds like very opposite ends of the spectrum, right? But I think that's so important for people to hear about because all we see are all these successes. We see that you've written 11 books. We see that you're a tenured professor. We see that you have a podcast and that you're a mom and that you do all these, you know, you've been like editor of everything and speaker of everything and in your keynote, it was conference next week. And so tell me more about that idea of rejection and how that plays into your life. Well,
00:13:28
Speaker
It's funny because I'm scrappy. I'm really, really scrappy. So I actually wrote this really great essay many, many years ago about rejection and and how it's really propelled me forward. So yeah I'll just give you a little bit of history. So when I was in my in high school, I applied to my high school's leadership program and I didn't get in. i Yeah, i was I was told I didn't have quite the potential. And so I waited a year, and I applied again, and I did get in the second time around. I applied to get into my college's leadership program, and then I didn't get into that either. I was told I didn't have leadership potential. And then I was told in my very first job as a student affairs professional that I lacked initiative and that student affairs wasn't a good fit for me. And just so we're clear, I'm a tenured professor of leadership, and I teach student affairs just so we we just swirl.
00:14:17
Speaker
on the same page here. so yeah And I say that sort of tongue in cheek because my whole thing is watch me. I don't do it because of or in spite of anyone, but I i do it because I'm not going to let anybody deter me from my dreams. And I have now later gone on to teach future student affairs professionals. I've gone on to run leadership programs. As a matter of fact, I even consulted for the very leadership program that I didn't get into, and which was very, very fun. and Then I had a faculty job that I applied for, and this was a recent Facebook post I put out there. It was a faculty job I applied for, and the dean said, ah okay, well, you know tell me about your your research. and I told him a little bit about what I was doing, and he's like,
00:15:02
Speaker
I'm skeptical and I said, what's even your publication agenda? And I said, oh, I'll have 10 books in 10 years. He's like, yeah, right. So the 10 year anniversary was last month and I had 11 books. And so, i love it you know, there's a lot of setbacks and I get a lot, I just got another rejection last week. I applied for a book award, didn't get it. But my whole philosophy with all of that is, so I don't violate copyright, I'm going to cite this. It is the Arizona lottery motto and it's, you can't win if you don't play. So I put myself out there over and over and over and I fail. I don't get picked for things all the time. I don't get selected for this. don't I've had so many rejections for jobs. I've had rejections for books. I've had rejections for everything.
00:15:42
Speaker
like I have to believe, believe deep down that you can't win if you don't play. You have to put yourself out there and you have to just have some tough skin, but that you haven't found the right place or the right person and not that there's something inherently wrong with you. And that was a big shift for me to understand. And even my daughter reminded me of that. She's like, you just haven't found the right agent, mommy. She goes, you don't want somebody to just take you just to take you. It's like you want to find the right agent. and And it's a reminder that my book hasn't found the right publisher. I haven't found the right job yet. Or even in like partnership, right? I haven't found the right person to be with. It doesn't mean I am unlovable.
Overcoming Rejection Stories
00:16:17
Speaker
And and that's a real shift for me to see this loss or rejection or something that you were hoping for. Sometimes this is the greatest thing that could possibly happen.
00:16:25
Speaker
and There's this Garth Brooks song. I'm not really a religious person, but I love the the the sentiment of this is unanswered prayers. And sometimes you want something so bad that you don't see what's right outside. And like you really you apply for this job. I remember applying for a job and I was so excitedly disappointed that I didn't get it. And guess what? I got the job where I end up working with you, Liana, and I learned so much that year, and it was a really transformative year. I also wrote a book that I wouldn't have been able to write had I not had that had that opportunity that year. like That year was incredibly transformative for me, and then I went on to get the job that I'm in now, which is like the perfect fit for me.
00:17:03
Speaker
And at the time I was devastated. And then a few months later, the the job came along, you know, working alongside you. And that was such a great, great gift to me. But it was like, sometimes you don't know what's out there. And so you just have to keep trying and finding your path and I'll get there. I'll get there. Like I always say it's not a matter of if I'm going to get get my book published. It's just where I just don't know. And it's taking a little bit longer because I'm doing process of elimination. But so I think it's a lot of life lessons I've learned. The, you can't win if you don't play. The idea that failure and rejection is not usually about the person. I mean, unless you're just made a lot of errors, but usually it's just about finding the right place. And so I just don't give up. I'm not going to give up. I i don't usually give up. I will change direction. I will recalibrate. I will learn, you know, I don't bang my head up against the wall, but I, you know, to try to force myself through a wall when there's a door behind me. But no, I mean, it's been a long journey of that, but yeah, rejection is just part and parcel. For every one thing that gets accepted, I've had 10 rejections.
00:17:58
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. How do you keep moving forward or pivoting and what keeps you going? Because you said like that job, and I'm so glad that job didn't work out so we could work together. Yeah. But you said you were you felt devastated. So like, what do you do to kind of pick yourself up and keep going? And how do you stay focused and motivated to continue? um Well, there's a couple things. One is I have to see it as a learning moment. What can I do differently next time if I wanted to replicate this exact situation? Is there anything I would change? The second thing is looking at where am I going? Was this really the right job for me? And in retrospect, I'm really thankful I did not get that job because that wouldn't have been a good fit for me. Where I am now is a really, really good fit.
00:18:39
Speaker
So part of it is like this learning and reflection piece that I think is important, where I think everything is a life lesson. And if I see that as, again, not ah not a measurement of my worth, but really just, hey, I was meant to learn this lesson because something better is out there for me, that keeps me having a more kind of optimistic viewpoint. But I also think that there's something, like I said, I'm not religious, but I am i am spiritual. And I do believe that that there are certain things that happen in certain ways and they unfold. Sometimes things just unfold serendipitously without real explanation. And I had this this memoir that I'm working on and I i mean, I've edited this thing. I've worked with several professionals over several years now to get this memoir done. I started pitching it out maybe six months ago and just rejection, rejection, rejection. And then it was interesting because I was trying to figure out what might I need to do, right? What is it not capturing attention? So I took a class on how to write a letter, a query letter.
00:19:31
Speaker
I'm like, OK, I feel good. But then I was like, I think there's something up with my first 50 pages that I'm submitting, like they're just not captivating like the rest of the book. So I sent it out to an editor and she sent it back to me. And what she had done is she had made so a small change in the flow of each of the first chapters in the 50 pages. And she just flipped around some dialogue. And I was like. Oh my gosh, this reads it's the same content. It reads so differently. And I went back and I've been doing that with the rest of the book. I've been just literally flipping this dialogue. It's a very simple process, but it's it's made the book read like a thousand times
Passion for Leadership and Diversity
00:20:04
Speaker
better. And I look back and I think, I am so glad those first 30 agents that I pitched to when I had the book the other way didn't pick this up.
00:20:13
Speaker
So I have to think that at the moment, the moment when things aren't happening, that the universe has something better in store for me. So for me, there was a better book to come. And i wasn't if I would have just had something come my way, I would never have been able to do the best work. And so sometimes I see that rejection is a gift. It means you're not ready. And there there's again, there's something that's a better fit. There's something else you need to do. Like in my case, I needed to to work on the book a little bit more. And so if I have those things that that gives me a sense of optimism, right? I haven't found the right place or it's not ready or I need to learn from this. And with that, it's easy to get back up because I say, OK, the rejection is almost like a breath of fresh air. I'm not ready. OK, good. Let's figure it out. And then it's like a puzzle. What do I need to do? And that's hopeful. That feels hopeful rather than devastating. Yeah, I love that perspective so much. We could all learn from that and take that and apply it to so many different areas of our life about rejection of relationships and jobs, projects, and just any opportunity. And as you're talking,
00:21:13
Speaker
there seems to be like a lot of passion or something with leadership because you applied for the the leadership program twice in high school and then again in college and now you're a leadership professor and you've written a bunch of books about leadership. What is it about leadership that even from a teenager's perspective, like from from your teenage Cory was like so interested in this, what is it about leadership that really gets you? I think one of my favorite parts has always been helping people reach their potential to be the best that they can be. And I always thought if I could do that as a leader or I could help other people do that for other people, that that would just make the world a better place. And so even at a young age, I was always into like diversity, equity, and inclusion, social justice stuff, like trying to make places as welcoming, supportive, inclusive, and and thriving as possible, that people can be their best selves.
00:22:06
Speaker
And for me, that just that didn't really come from any personal experience other than it just was a drive inside of me to want that for the world. And so I wanted to be able to be a part of that. I wanted to be able to write curriculum that challenged people to think differently about themselves and others, to literally transform them as humans. So it's not about leadership, like, I want to make you a better manager so your workers don't quit. it's more like I want to make your workplace such a thriving space for people to feel like they can show up and do their best work and feel fulfilled and happy and cared about in the process. And then whatever happens from your workplace ends up trickling out into the world. And so that's always been really what I've desired to do. And, and you know, I've taken meandering roads to kind of do that, but that's really what it is. It's really about potential. And so what I think was really ironic about all of it was some of it
00:22:56
Speaker
probably was also emphasized by the fact that I was told on a number of occasions when I applied to get into these very leadership programs, it was about potential building, that I didn't have the potential to even have my potential built. It made me just furious, to be honest, like just internal drive to say, we have got to make the world a place where everybody can thrive and reach their potential, not just those that we select to think that they have the most potential to do something. And so when I had an opportunity to run a leadership program, a college-level leadership program for many, many years, that you would apply to get in just simply so we had your like phone number. Really, it wasn't because it was a you know we wanted to know you were there for the right reasons, but it wasn't about how much potential you had or how much past leadership experience you had. The idea was I wanted to create a space where people could develop into their full selves. And it wasn't for me to judge whether I thought you could. And I had been judged by that for many years, but I even had this feeling even before that happened. But yeah, I just want to make a place for anybody and everybody. I believe anybody and everybody has the capacity to be a leader. And I do think anybody and everybody, they are leaders in some
00:23:58
Speaker
realms, whether they're they they're a leader within themselves, they take initiative to do things like you know they're walking through a park and they see trash and they pick it up and put it in a trash can.
Authenticity in Leadership
00:24:06
Speaker
That's leadership. That's reaching a potential of saying, I'm going to make a difference in the world and I'm doing it by picking up this trash. It might be with your family. It might be with your friends, your communities, your jobs. It could be political office. There's really no end to it. But I think that it's this idea of capacity building and and you know just helping people reach their potential that has really been the driving force for me. I love that. And I think you live your life in a way that embodies leadership because part of leadership is rejection and but and failures and learning, constant learning, you know, like you talked about with your daughter of being real and vulnerable. And I think that that is probably a different kind of leadership than maybe other people might believe leadership to be. And so I think there's something
00:24:53
Speaker
when you're talking about like the people who select the next generation of leaders, they're doing that with their own lens, right? Through their own lens and their own definition of leadership. And I think that there are a lot of different definitions of what it means to be a leader. I think this is something that I found so at the company we worked at together where I was the only woman on the leadership team. And at first I had a really hard time being able to bring my style to the table and feeling comfortable with that and and being the authentic leader that I am because I felt like constantly kind of checking myself against these men doing it very differently than me and having a very different approach and thinking, well, maybe that's leadership. you know I mean, I had studied leadership in my master's degree program and and I kind of you know had studied different ways of being a leader, but I think the
00:25:53
Speaker
idea that we all show up differently and bring our own unique selves to any role that we're in, whether it's a leadership role or not. But then whenever we become leaders, I think we almost, I should say for me, I've thought like, oh, there's like this leadership prototype and I need to like figure that out and then like be that person. And what I found was that it wasn't um authentic and it wasn't me. It just didn't work. And then when I at some point decided like, I'm not doing that. I'm just going to show up as me. I was so much more effective and so much happier and yeah my team was happier. And you know, I saw the the actual results of it. So I love what you're saying about being inclusive about leaders that anyone can be a leader and that we all might
00:26:44
Speaker
show up a little bit differently in our roles and definitions of leadership. Absolutely. And I love that story because that happens to a lot of people. We try to fit into some kind of mold. I have a funny story is sort of related to that. One of my very, very previous jobs, I had taken the the strengths finder instruments and and I got my top five strengths, right? But I also took the extensive training. So they give you the thirty all 34 of them in order, which they don't do because they don't want you to look at your 34th strength and figure out like, Oh, quote, weakness. But what did I do? I looked at the 34th one. And then I happened to mention it to my supervisor. And I said, I have empathy as my 34th strength. And so it was either like a one on one or an evaluation or something. She said, you need to demonstrate more empathy. That is going to be your job. You need to be more empathetic.
00:27:31
Speaker
All this stuff, right? So I'm like, I don't even know like what empathy looks like. I'm like, so I was struggling a little bit. So what I did is for like a week, I went around with my, but my direct reports and I was like, Oh, that must be really difficult to be in your shoes. And, and they're like, what? it And I was like robotic. I'm like, I can only imagine how you feel. After about a week, one of my staff members came in and she goes, we need to talk. What in the world is going on with you? Why are you being so weird? I said, what do you mean? She said, you're acting really funny. She was telling me the stuff I was doing. I told her why I was doing it. She said,
00:28:09
Speaker
What on earth? She said, no, that is not you. That is not authentic to you. And and I said, but then but then I don't have any empathy. She goes, oh, my goodness. She goes, first of all, if you want to just look at this instrument alone, which this is only one way of looking at it, you have this strength of responsibility in your top five. She said, you advocate for us more than anybody I've ever met. You feel so such a sense of responsibility to make sure that we are taken care of, that we are successful." She said, I don't need you to say, I know how you're feeling. This must be really hard. She said, I need you to just do something and make me feel like you care. And you do that every single day. And she said, this that's you. Do that. Don't do whatever this thing is you're doing. And she said, and besides this fact, like you do have empathy. Just because it's number 34 on some test doesn't mean that you don't have any empathy. She said, you have a great deal of empathy. Do not change what you're doing and how you show up. On behalf of all of us, please stop doing whatever you're doing. yeah I was like, okay, because I thought that that was like, I needed more of that. But what I didn't realize is that I had been leveraging all these other things to show up in ways that that was authentic to me and was clearly working.
00:29:16
Speaker
for them, and I started messing it up by trying to fit into some kind of mold, and that that wasn't going to work.
Feedback and Personal Growth
00:29:22
Speaker
And from then on, it's like, here's how i here's how I show up. I mean, I don't want to be unproductive, I don't want to be disrespectful, I don't want to be disloyal, those kind of things, but here's who I am. Very passionate, extroverted, driven, achieving kind of a human, and I operate best in those modes, and so I try to align myself with projects and people that appreciate that, and not projects and people that that doesn't work for them. And I found that that's just a better way of living my authenticity. Yeah, when you're talking about like that supervisor that I think that is if we are always taking the external feedback that we hear from other people right from your supervisor telling you to work on empathy or from the high school
00:30:07
Speaker
leadership program director telling you that you have no leadership potential or whatever job you're applying for telling you that you're not right for the role or whatever it is, it's important and helpful to hear feedback. And also, it's important and helpful to check in with ourselves about like, does this feedback resonate with me? Is this a direction that I want to go, right? Like, is this feedback that I want to take in and that I want to take on or or do I want to just say like, actually, That's not for me feedbacks much more about the other person and and their lens and so i think there's a lot to be said about that. Yeah absolutely what you're talking about is context who is it coming from what are they nearing back to you because sometimes people get feedback about things that people wish that they would do themselves.
00:30:56
Speaker
you know like right You need to be more this, and it's like, oh, really? Well, maybe you need to be more that. um you know Where is that coming from? And then it's important to take it. I took that empathy feedback with a grain of salt and thought, OK, well, maybe I should look into this. And then when I did, it didn't feel like that exact approach was the right one for me, and it didn't come off as the right one for me. So I i listened, and I checked in, and I took it into consideration. As I do with all feedback, But some of it, you just have to discount because you're right. It's coming from the other person's expectations or their lens. It's obscure feedback. I've been told by people, well, one person in particular, I am too passionate. like What does that mean? What does too passionate mean? Does it mean that I'm like steamrolling other people in like an idea generation process? Because that's a problem. I don't want to do that. Or does it mean that I'm just driven and I just love what I do? And you and the the feedback was, just you're just driven, you love what you do. Everything you take on, you love what you do, and it's just overwhelming for other people to have to try to compare themselves. And I said, well, then stop comparing yourself. said Because passion is my favorite part of me. yeah And if you can't appreciate that, and I'm not doing anything negative to you with that, then that's that's your own feedback. That's feedback to yourself. Why is my passion bothering you? right
00:32:08
Speaker
bothering me and it's not hurting people. So it is interesting when you have to sort of sit with it and and then figure out who it's coming from. I've been told by some folks, you might not want to share about your successes because it intimidates people. I've been told that by a number of people. like It's just giving you some friendly feedback. It intimidates people to hear about how successful you are. And I say, I hardly talk about my successes. I almost always talk about my failures. And they're like, well, nobody pays attention to the failures when you talk about them. They listen to the successes and then, you know, and I was like, I can brag about them if I want. I don't brag, but I'm like, I can. They're my successes. Why do they make you uncomfortable?
00:32:43
Speaker
right And that's just been a really interesting thing to sit with. And like some people just, they get intimidated and part of it is like, maybe they're not living up to their own expectations or maybe they feel like I'm setting some kind of a bar or that I'm somehow judging them. I don't know, but but it's interesting because feedback often comes from people who are working through something related to that themselves. And that's why they gave you that feedback. Some feedback's just straight up good, like stop interrupting people. Okay, that's good. Thank you for telling me that. Right. But some of it really does come from people's own stuff. Yeah, and this is also making me think about the episode I did with Dr. Amy Diehl a few episodes back about gender bias in the workplace and the research that she and her co-researcher did found
00:33:25
Speaker
that basically on like 34 different metrics that women specifically are judges being either too much or not enough of everything. There's no right amount, right? There's no right amount of passion that a woman can be. She's either too passionate or she's not know passionate enough. She doesn't care. And so whenever I saw that research, and that was why I invited Dr. Deal onto the podcast to explore that some more, because for me, I was like, oh That is so relieving. It's a problem, obviously, and hopefully we can we can work to change it. But also, for me, being told that I was too much of something or not enough of something else and trying to find this like perfect balance of like what is this tightrope that I can walk on where I'm the perfect amount of of whatever quality someone is trying to tell me to be.
00:34:18
Speaker
is exhausting yeah and impossible, literally impossible. Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because when when you're talking about a couch and gender too is, you know, interestingly where I'm getting a lot of it is from other women, or just self-perpetuating that. and And so there's some interesting dynamics in that. Element in and of itself, but you're right trying to find that balance and then even if you were to find whatever this Elusive balance is you meet somebody else and yours too much of one thing or not another you're You're never gonna be everything to everyone exactly except you just need to be everything to yourself. That's what's most important and
00:34:53
Speaker
Just show up as I always say i'm going to show up as myself and that love it or leave it right like i said this just the other day we're talking about friendships and i said you know people talk about you know how difficult it is to make friends as an adult and i said you know i i really put myself out there and i like try to make friends everywhere i go and i rekindle old friendships and i have I work really hard on that, and I said, but one of the things i you know I want to make sure is that I align myself next to people, even as just friends or or collaborators or whatever, that like me, that think that I am the perfect balance for them, that I am what they're looking for. Because I said this and out loud, I said, there are just too many great people in this world, and but we don't all have to be
00:35:32
Speaker
connected to each
Finding Work-Life Balance
00:35:33
Speaker
other. It's impossible. And so there's a lot of really great people. So for every one person who might think I'm too passionate, there's someone else who just loves that and wants to be around that energy. And yeah those are the people I want to hang out with. you know And it's not that there's anything wrong with the people who think I'm too passionate. They have other people that they can hang out with that are their speed. And that's totally fine because we're all looking for people to bring up, again, the best in us, our potential. I want to be around other people that want to build my potential too, not dim me, but help me light my fire. And that and that's me. If like I'm around someone and they help me light my fire, then you get to stay. yeah And I want to help you light your fire. That's just what I think is ah is a contributory relationship, professional and personal.
00:36:12
Speaker
Yes, amen to that. Yeah. I am curious about, you're talking about this, love it or leave it, and I want to align myself with the right people, and you know, I just need to find the right place and the right person. It seems like you're kind of found a really good balance of that at work and where you're living. Has it always been that way for you? Have you, you have this like, perfect place that you've crafted and you know and where you're feeling valued and people are appreciating you and you're enjoying being around them and you're feeling aligned. Is that how it's been your whole life and or how did you get to this point?
00:36:51
Speaker
Part of it has been that I've always been this sort of overachiever kind of person, and I found it difficult to find my people in many ways, like you were saying, particularly growing up in an era decades ago where it was even more so putting girls in their place and, you know, are those kind of things that being this overachiever, I had a lot of other friends that were just like, I'm just going to stop and give up on that because it's just never going to happen. And so it was it was difficult to find my place. yeah um But as I got older, I started to realize that like there are people that want to do big things, will you know go big, you know all these kinds of kind of philosophies that I have about the world. you know like Just put yourself out there. And there are people like that. And there are people that appreciate me for being like that. And it took me a long time to find that. And so in jobs, I've you know i've struggled you know with um you know bosses pushing and pushing me down. And I've had situations, just even friends, just life where I'm like,
00:37:45
Speaker
ah And it felt really heavy. And it just got to a point in the last few years, probably in the last three years, where I was just like, I'm done with that. It doesn't make me feel very good and I want to find my people. And so now I have a professional and a personal philosophy that is this. I don't want to do anything that I don't want to do and I don't want to be anywhere that I don't want to be. And I know that that isn't always the case because we do have to go to work. We do have to go to the grocery store and buy groceries. We do have to do things like I do have to help my daughter with math. You know, obviously there's some things that we have to to do and we have to be and we have to go. But there's a lot of things that we don't and we do out of obligation. It's like when someone invites you to a dinner party and you're like, the last thing I want to do is go and you're like, Oh, sure, I'll go. And so I'm getting into this philosophy of like, I don't want to do those things. I want to focus my time and attention on the things that bring me passion. And if I'm constantly going to things that don't bring me passion or working on projects that don't bring me joy, then I'm taking time away from the things that do.
00:38:45
Speaker
And so I've decided that there's only a handful of people that I want to collaborate with moving forward, collaborate and write with. That's just it. i There's only a few projects that I want to do and I want to focus on them. There's only a few places I want to be and go to and I've really made those a priority and I mean I know that there's lots of things you still have to go and do and I do those things but those elective things I don't feel guilty about it anymore and I've been able to just be able to write reprioritize and put all of my my passion into the things that I care about and it seems to be drawing in lots of other people who are doing the same
00:39:18
Speaker
So I'm attracting that and so like I said when I'm finding my people I'm finding other people that want to do those things too So when I am collaborating I'm collaborating with other people who are just as passionate as I am I'm friends with people who are just as into our friendship as I am and I'm finding that that is soul-filling, right? But also just prioritizing in terms of my own time management and to to do that. And so I haven't always been like that, but I have always been passionate about doing and doing and going and finding what it is that brings me joy. But I'm finally at a place where I'm pretty clear what brings me joy and what does not bring me joy. It's so interesting. The last year I get LinkedIn messages right and left from people, people that I do not know, that are like, oh, I know that you do leadership or I know that you would do Gen Z stuff and I would love to meet with you and pick your brain.
00:40:02
Speaker
No, no, thank you. I don't know who you are. I don't want to pick your brain. I don't want you to pick my brain. I can appreciate it. You tell me what a potential collaboration could be, and maybe I'll consider it. But at this point, I'm taking on only the projects that I want. If I have to hear any more synergy meetings on Zoom that we can have with some stranger, here My heart's not in it the same way. It's like I'm not passionate. And if i I found that if I, just like the authenticity we're talking about, if I'm not passionate and I try to like sort of fake passion for something, I feel like I'm dying inside. And so now what I'm doing is I'm surrounding myself with the people and the projects that bring me joy. I'm saying yes to opportunities that seem interesting and creative, so I'm not turning every one of them down. But I'm not taking every single meeting and every single opportunity because some of those things
00:40:45
Speaker
I just know are not going to be in the places and spaces that I emotionally and mentally and spiritually need to be in order to do them for the way that I want to do them with authenticity and passion. Yeah. Well, number one, I feel so honored that you came on the podcast. Oh, thank you for saying yes to it. Of course, of course. And also what I'm hearing you say is that when we cut out the stuff that doesn't matter and the stuff that doesn't bring us joy, it makes room for more of what what does. And it makes me room for more of the people in our lives like to come into our lives to
00:41:21
Speaker
that we align with the projects the work and the things that we enjoy more but yeah i think it's there are so many times that we say yes to things that we really don't want to do and certainly like you said there are times that that we have to do that but there are probably way less times that we have to do that than we usually actually need to write exactly.
Post-COVID Transformation
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, I love what you're saying about that. Did something change for you that suddenly you said there was this moment where I'm done with that? Like, what allows you to to say no to things that you may have said yes to before?
00:41:53
Speaker
To be honest with you, it happened during COVID. It was a very reflective time. you know we know I know for all of us, it was very scary and sad and devastating and so many things that made me kind of question my mortality. right like Am I living for what I should be living for? um It gave me a lot more downtime to reflect on what was important. It gave me a lot more downtime to also pick up projects that I'd always wanted to do that were on the back burner for things that I didn't want to do. and It made me think about who were the people that I wanted in that social bubble, right? Who were the people I wanted to align with? Who came out after COVID, right? Like which relationships, friendships, work partnerships, what things stuck and what didn't. I got more centered. I i went on a more of like a physical journey where I started walking and hiking a lot more than I was before. And so I would go out and get centered.
00:42:41
Speaker
And I found that some some physical practices around centering were transformative to me to to just sort of reflect on what's most important. So I think that's kind of where it got it its big start for me. I relocated during COVID as well. I came home to Arizona, which it's been a roundabout way where I've lived in places that I didn't want to live for many years so that I could align things to eventually be where I am. and COVID brought me home physically and emotionally brought me home and I realized there is nothing, nothing worth leaving for.
00:43:17
Speaker
no job, no situation, no nothing. And I had to make some really tough decisions after COVID when things were kind of loosening back up again, people were going back to work and things. And I decided for myself that I am no good to anyone unless I'm good for myself. And so I and needed to take care of myself. And taking care of myself meant really thinking about where I wanted to invest my time, my energy, the people, the places I wanted to be, the places I didn't want to be. And I came out of that and thought, my my whole world is different. I just have a completely different shift and mentality. So um my I'm still obviously like an overachiever of passion. All those traits and all those things are still the same, my drive and ambition. But I just had kind of almost like a reckoning with myself and had to realize what was most important. And I realized that there's lots of things that are really
00:44:07
Speaker
that are really important and that I have been neglecting those. And it's interesting because I have more today than I had before that with less stress and less time. And I have all the things that I want plus more. So it's pretty remarkable how when you shift your mentality and like I made room for the things that I wanted to have in my life, that they showed up in my life and my life was so much more fulfilling and yet I'm not busier. I'm not nearly as stressed as I used to be and it's all because of that and I still get to do all the great things that I love to do and and just in a much better and healthier and happier way. I'm so happy for you. Thank you.
00:44:47
Speaker
I think that COVID was was transformative for a lot of people, for better or for worse. And I resonate with that as well of kind of, it was a time of looking inwardly of and and kind of taking stock of like, am I living the way I want to live? To me, COVID during that time, like it was a really high bar of like, are you worth risking my life over to spend time with? You know, it changed how I decided to spend my time, ultimately, because, like you said, kind of facing our mortality and seeing that so many people were impacted by this. Am I spending my time the way I want to? And what do I want to change? How do I align if I have a shorter amount of time than I'm what I thought? ah So yeah, I love hearing you talk about that as well. That resonates with me.
00:45:35
Speaker
So it's exciting whenever your friends are are happy with what they're doing. and you know And I know it sounds like it's been a long journey to get here. I love how you send out your like annual life update newsletter the holiday times. My annual PowerPoint, I hope, for what I have to do to get on your list. I'm like, this can be your email address. then you'll have be on it forever. ah But I love it because I feel like I followed your journey over the years, so it's great to see. Was there anything else that you would want to share or talk about or like things you've learned along the way? Because like I said, every time I talk to you, I learn something and I've loved this conversation that we had no agenda for. We didn't know where it was going to go, but I know that everyone listening is is going to learn so much. So anything else you'd want to share?
00:46:26
Speaker
Well, I think something just is kind of a funny process thing is we had no agenda for this. And if you would have done this with me 10 years ago, I would have wanted an agenda with all the questions. Me too. And so part of it is this idea of just taking life where it will go and you know just like constantly looking for open doors and opportunities. and you know We did not know what this conversation was going to be when we started. and so it was I think that's what I've learned to do more is just embrace life's unfoldings.
Positive Energy and Personal Growth
00:46:55
Speaker
right and There's hard times. i mean you know A lot of people are like, oh my gosh, you have all these great things in your world. Yeah, but it's been a ah really tricky last couple of years for me too. and It's been really hard, so it hasn't been all peaches in green and cream. But to me, I think it's just the attitude. I try the best I can. I'm still not great at letting go and just like letting
00:47:14
Speaker
letting things unfold, but I'm getting better at it. And I think one of the things I can just say it to other people as you're listening is that we're just a very stressed out group of people in this world today. we're stressed about everything We're stressed about everything rightfully so and everything is stressful. It's more stressful than it needed to be. You can't even call inquire about your cable bill anymore without it taking a half a day and three agents and buckets of tears. And I get that. If we can't overhaul the way that our society operates and the people are honest, we can certainly alter the way that we respond to it. And so I'm still trying to make changes in society. I'm just still trying to make it a better place to be. But I think about there's just some things we can't change and there's some outcomes we can't get too attached to. And there's some failures that are just going to happen. And there's some things you just don't know.
00:48:00
Speaker
the person who cuts you off on the road, you know, might be having a horrible day and rushing to see their sister in the hospital. You just don't know. And and I have to remind myself of this because I still get frustrated and I still get some kind of angst, but that stress and that angst only hurts me. It only hurts me. And I'm just trying to live like a little bit more with, uh, I call it like high vibrations, right? We've taught you, people talk about this high vibrations, people that bring in positive energy, good energy. And so that you have those in your buckets just as a reserve. So when person someone does cut you off or when you are on the phone with the cable person, you can draw from that reserve. And I didn't, I lived my life without a reserve for a really long time.
00:48:40
Speaker
And it made it even more stressful. And now I know that if I'm having a rough day, my daughter might even say, what can I do to help? And she's part of my reserve, you know, not to lean too heavily on her, but that I've now crafted a life that I have the support and the people around me and the places that I want to be and all of that that is positive and fulfilling that the stress doesn't feel as heavy as it used to. and I'm a major work in progress. I am not prophesying anything to anyone, but I'm just saying that this is a life lesson that I've learned and I can't wait to continue to to do that as i as I grow older because that's, at the end, that's what what really matters is just how healthy and happy and and loved and loving you know you are. It doesn't matter about how many books you have on the shelf, although to that Dean, it matters. But that that's been a really tough lesson and I'm still way, way knee deep in learning it.
Embracing the Journey
00:49:30
Speaker
Well, thank you for sharing sharing that. I agree so much with that. And as you were talking about having an agenda, same. I've always been very like type A and need to have everything planned out. And that's something that I have as well in the last few years been working on letting go of. I think it started in my coaching program, actually, when I did my coach training. the idea that like you show up as the coach and you don't have the agenda, the client has the agenda. And the quote that we always are reminded of is that you will never know where you're going, but you will never be lost. And it's just kind of this idea of like, we might have a direction, but we may not know exactly where we're going, but
00:50:11
Speaker
It doesn't mean that we're lost. What happens sometimes is we stop and we're like, whoa, what's happening? And I'm lost. And then we start freaking out about being lost. And and that's all that stress that you're talking about. And then we kind of miss out on that journey of ah where we're going and being able to enjoy it. I totally agree with you. I remember it was funny. When I graduated my PhD, one of my faculty members said, you know oh, how are you feeling? And they said, oh, I just really wish that I would have. It was before I was graduating. and I said, I wish that I could have just like close my eyes and woken up and I'd be at graduation. And I wouldn't have had that you remember all this traumatic stuff that I've had to go through. and He said, Yeah, but Corey, that's the good stuff. That's the journey. Don't wish it away even if it's hard. Yeah, that's what I don't when I think back to grad school, I don't remember graduation as much as I remember all the stuff in between. Even when it was hard, right? You know, that's the good stuff.
00:51:02
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with us. And I love talking to you and I've learned so much and I know that everyone will as well. So thank you for joining me today. Oh goodness, I love this conversation. I'm glad we recorded it because sometimes you have these big conversations and you're like, oh, I wish we would have recorded that. Yes. So I'm really glad we got a chance to talk. This was really, really e special. So I appreciate it. Yes. Likewise. Well, thank you so much, Corey. And thank you everybody for tuning in and we will see you all next week.
00:51:38
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning in to the Executive Coach for Moms podcast. Please like, subscribe, or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.