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The High Achiever's Guide to Pursuing a PhD While Balancing Career and Parenthood - with Lisa Tran
42 Plays4 months ago
Higher education leader Dr. Lisa Tran joins Leanna to share her journey of pursuing a PhD while working full time, parenting three young children, and being engaged in her local community. Lisa shares her success strategies for managing her demanding schedule during such a high intensity phase without burning out. Along with focusing on needs over wants, Lisa remained committed to the 4 F’s that are non-negotiables for her: faith, family, fitness, and food. She highlights the importance of choosing the right time to make big changes, of having a support system in place, and of making sure that your choice is really for you, in order to push past self-doubt without fear of failure in achieving a life that is exactly what you want.
Full transcript here.
Connect with Leanna here.
Connect with Dr. Lisa here.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Executive Coach for Moms Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to the Executive Coach for Moms podcast, where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host, Leigh Ann Alaski McGrath, former tech exec turned full-time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic and certified executive coach.
00:00:31
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Meet Lisa Tran: PhD Journey as a Working Mom
00:00:36
Speaker
I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Lisa Tran. Lisa works at SMU, Cox School of Business, and she used to work with my husband. And so we know each other through there and from our days in Dallas. And she recently posted on social media that she had obtained her PhD And she has children and she works full time in a leadership role. And I was like, Lisa, you have to come on this podcast with me and tell me and our listeners how you did this and everything that you learned along the way. So I'm so excited to hear from her today. So welcome, Dr. Lisa Tran. Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat. And it's been a while since we've actually spoken, but it's always great reconnecting through social media. That's definitely one of the but biggest benefits.
00:01:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to hear what you have to share with us today.
Balancing Family and Career: Lisa's Story
00:01:32
Speaker
And maybe if you could start off, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. I'm a second generation Asian American. um My parents immigrated to the US from Bangkok, Thailand, um and they came here My dad had a different journey. He came here actually to pursue higher education and always thought that you know it was for short term, but then decided to, back then it was great, really achieving the American dream, um becoming an entrepreneur and decided to raise our family here in the US. I was actually born in Greenville, Texas. so About 45 minutes east of Dallas, and I won't go into too much detail of why, My parents decided to have us there. Kind of the immigrant experience, it's who you know. And the only Thai OB that they knew within the area happened to have a practice in Greenville, Texas. So that's kind of the backstory. Yes. and My mom is also from Bangkok. She completed her college degree in Bangkok before coming to the U.S.
00:02:34
Speaker
um So my parents actually met in Dallas, got married in Dallas, and I'm one of five kids. um My parents raised five children, five kids in five and a half years and there's no multiples. So if you can just imagine. and we we We love being part of a large family. and we're best friends because we're so close in age and ah you know I'm actually here in Denver, Colorado where one of number four out of five one of my sisters has her family so very close to my family and that's a big ah part of you know really my story and making sure that and One day when I had children, I want my children to be very close to each other. and we all We were always taught, you know your best friends hopefully will be your siblings. They're going to stick with you through and through and thinking about teamwork, even leadership. I'm the second um out of the five kids, but the eldest girl. so
00:03:34
Speaker
Whatever that means, there's a lot of ah birth order and gender roles that I took on at a very early age that has really thinking about it and reflecting on it um really helped form how I lead, how I engage with other individuals.
Navigating Doctoral Studies and Family Commitments
00:03:50
Speaker
So it's a little about about me personally, I'm married. My husband and I have been married for 17 years. We are college sweethearts and we met at SMU as undergrads and we have three children. So they're now as of last month, 12, 10, and eight. So, you know, when I started my doctoral program, they were, gosh, nine, seven, and five. And it's crazy to think that years, and you know, when I look at photos of when they started, they just look completely different.
00:04:20
Speaker
But the three years felt like it flew by, but also you know it felt like an eternity all at the same time. And I've had the wonderful privilege of, I wouldn't even call it balance, but being able to create a fulfilling life as a working mother, as a spouse, as a daughter, and then also connecting with a community because I work for my alma mater, SME Cox School of Business, that sense of ingrained community that I never really thought
00:04:53
Speaker
would be such a big part of my overall identity in all those aspects of life. That's a little bit about my background. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. So you you and Jimmy didn't want to do five kids in five years. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I know. three is three feet Every time I travel with kids, I think about my parents you know going back every summer to Thailand because that was the deal and with my grandfather oh wow was you know he wanted all of us to go back. um and kept telling my dad, you need to come back. All our our family is here. My dad's one of nine. My mom's one of six. um We're the only ones who were born and raised in the US. And so the agreement was every summer, we went back for the entire summer. And also that was an amazing experience in itself, but traveling 24 hours across the ocean,
00:05:51
Speaker
With five children. I can't even imagine. Wow. I need to have your parents on here next. I feel like it's amazing. Oh my gosh. I know. I know they truly are our heroes in so many different ways. Yeah. And also as the eldest girl and eldest child, I um totally agree. I think there is something about birth order, right? That impacts how we lead and how we think about leadership, or at least for me, that's kind of what I found. And also in talking with other people, there are so many leaders who are the first, the oldest of their gender, which I think is so interesting. So you decided to pursue a PhD.
00:06:32
Speaker
And you have, I would say, I don't know if demanding job, is that the right way to describe it? I think any job is is demanding in one way or another. But yes, it it would be very different. Let's just say if I didn't have a career. But that that i took time. the But then again, you know behind the curtain, and I've had so much time to reflect on this, and you know my husband and I just celebrated our anniversary, and we went on a staycation. And we talked about how we survived. So I guess I should also share that within those three years, my husband decided to run for office as well. And so that six-month time period within the second year of the program was a blur.
00:07:20
Speaker
And we felt like we were going in so many different directions. And our kids were also super busy. People say, Oh, it gets easier when they're older. No, it's just different busy. You feel like you're missing out on, you know, their activities is a bit more because there are certain trade offs, right? and And really prioritizing where you want to spend your your time. So the career piece, I honestly don't know how I would have been able to stay so focused had I not had the different aspects of my life intersecting all at the same time.
00:07:57
Speaker
So there was no time for me to procrastinate. That's a double-edged sword too, because I felt so much pressure and undue pressure on myself, really. I was like, okay, I have 15 minutes. That 15 minutes should be spent on reading a new journal that could be a part of my my research. Instead of saying, I need 15 minutes just to myself. to not even think about work or school, you know, just to have some quiet time for myself. But there was just so much guilt that I always felt like they're neat I need to fill every single minute of my time with kid-related stuff, work-related time or school.
00:08:42
Speaker
So, but on the other side, because I had so many, you know, everybody has ah obligations, whether you have children or not. But for me, I wanted to be a present spouse, a present daughter, a present mother. And then also, I was still really enjoying my career. And I think that's the piece that I would have to say, you know, in my previous role, and you mentioned that um J.R. and I, your husband and I used to work together, um had I not transitioned out of a student facing role before I had decided I was going to pursue this
Family Planning and Educational Pursuits: Timing is Key
00:09:20
Speaker
degree? It it was never a an if question. If I was going to do it, it was when. And whenever I talk to people who are considering going back to school or even getting a certification, whether it's a non-degree or a degree program, it's just investing in your own leadership or your own learning, there's no perfect time, but there is a right time. And COVID was so hard in so many ways, but it also allowed me to really reflect on the next stage and where I wanted to set myself up career-wise.
00:09:49
Speaker
And I also had an extremely supportive boss who happened to pursue his PhD in his 40s, and he was a father. And just seeing that as an example of making that career switch, you know having a corporate job and pursuing a PhD and knowing that at the end of the day, this may not have an immediate impact in my career, but knowing that this is a good investment because I wanted to I personally do it for my own learning and planning for the next phase and not really expecting, okay, I'm going to get this degree. I'm immediately going to have a career switch. That was never the intention, right? The intention was this is a good point in my career where I do believe given the supervisor that I had
00:10:36
Speaker
the type of job that I had that was external to be seen. And then also, my life circumstances at home, my husband left the corporate sector. you know Prior to COVID, we both were traveling for work. That would have been extremely complicated if I had to fit school on top of it. And the thing that I really loved about the SMU program was it was an in-person residential program that's set up for executives. A certain level of higher ed professionals in their career. so I'm not having to go to class every other day. It was a very concentrated amount of time so we could plan accordingly within the family. Now, was it perfect? Absolutely not. I missed out on family events, but what made
00:11:26
Speaker
me focus and prioritize even more was how I, I call it cutting the fat out of life. You know, there are certain, I wouldn't call it luxuries, but it's a understanding what the needs and wants truly are needs for my family. want versus wants. And so an example, so many weddings occur within those three years, including two of my brothers. Both my brothers decided to get married within a month, oh within a year of each other during the program. They really should have planned this better.
00:12:01
Speaker
but way better, you know? But, you know, that's just how life happened. And I, because they're my brothers and I'm so close to my brothers, I knew that regardless of what's going on in my life, I'm going to make it to the wedding. And one of the weddings was international. Wow. would have been really
The Four F's Philosophy: A Guiding Principle
00:12:20
Speaker
nice for them to plan it around my class schedule, but of course that doesn't happen all the time. um But that's an example of, okay, that's a non-negotiable in my life because they are a sibling. If it's my husband, my kids, my parents, or my siblings, 100% non-negotiable for me, I will be there.
00:12:40
Speaker
If it is an in-law or a a friend, it would have been nice to go and and show my support. But again, everybody had to be understanding, including myself, giving myself some grace yeah that I would like to go. But thinking about the makeup work. that I had to do for that weekend that I was gone in Ecuador for my brother's wedding, it was obviously worth it and um I was willing to do it. That took up even more time that I didn't have, that I did not feel was
00:13:16
Speaker
I wouldn't say it wasn't worth it, but I just had to make certain decisions, you know, a want versus a need. Right. So that's kind of real life example of life decisions that I had to make. And I always prioritize work, my kids, events, you know, and and luckily my job is more Monday through Friday and not a lot of weekends. So the weekends were really focused on family and school. So I had to iterate multiple times, times of the day where I had focused attention on just school. yeah And my writing for my dissertation always happened before my kids and my husband were awake.
00:14:03
Speaker
so And I just knew after the kids went to sleep, I just didn't have the mental or physical capacity yeah to do any type of school-related work besides coursework, right? There's coursework and then there's a dissertation that's looming always um within that time. So it took me about a semester and a half to figure that out. And once I got into a routine, it was easier to stick to that. So that's what I would say. I have so many questions and things I want to jump in on. So so one thing is the idea about kind of like your non-negotiables, your needs versus ones, cutting the fat. I think, you know, what I hear you saying is establishing better boundaries, being very clear about values and priorities and making sure that you're, you know, living in the way and spending your time in the way.
00:14:58
Speaker
that you can still feel good about how you're spending your time even though you're having to say no to probably more things, understandably, during this time. What did that process look like for you? Was that something that was a upfront, you sat down and you figured out, you and your partner were like, let's figure out, you know, what's most important and let's be clear about it. Was it like an iterative thing? You know, you just kind of like it would, when it would come up, you would, you know, you would figure it out. Or was it like, I just know, I mean, cause you seem very clear that his husband, parents and siblings are,
00:15:32
Speaker
the priorities and like anything and then of course work in school and anything else can fall to the wayside. Like was there a process or was it just kind of like you figured out as you go? It's a combination of the two things. So people who know me know that I love acronyms and I don't take credit for coming up with this one. I actually give credit to my dad. so how I grew up gave me the discipline needed to live the life that I do. Our family growing up, there are four F's that we lived by. It's faith first, right? So um making sure that we are giving giving thanks to God for all wonderful things that
00:16:12
Speaker
Wonderful are also the challenging things that life throws at you. um The next one is family. And a family is inclusive of our immediate family, our work family, friendships as well that have become family. Fitness is the third, so we prioritize our health and well-being from a very young age. And I am grateful that my parents always said what you put in your body is very important and then you have to exert some type of energy. It's exercise that's very important.
00:16:44
Speaker
So I've exercised my whole life and still continue to do that and always make time for it. Whether I'm on vacation, if I have 20 minutes or 30 minutes, um because I know that it helps me mentally as well, if I am physically active. And the last piece is food. So food is, we love food, we love food. We love to travel all over the world and food is such a big part of our culture and upbringing and that wherever we are, we want to make sure that we are eating really good food. So just call up all of those four things have been interwoven within our life. And when we think about like the family piece, the slash friendships or, you know, colleagues, all of all of those things,
00:17:31
Speaker
And then also fitness, it's mental, spiritual, physical, obviously. And learning is a big piece of it, right? So mental growth is also part of fitness. And so education was so important important in our upbringing. You know, my dad came here to the United States for education. So it's always been that that big part of of our life. So that has always been the foundation in my life, throughout my life, and carrying on to my first career, having children, all of that. And so the discipline to ensure that we are, that I am very intentional with fitting those things into my life is finding synergies. So an example would be, I love to run. And I knew that,
Support Systems: A Family Affair
00:18:20
Speaker
especially when my kids were really young,
00:18:23
Speaker
I would fight the urge to make sure that they are sleeping in their crib when they're napping and that's just not happening. I've already tried for over an hour and a half. I would pop them into a jogger and get my run in and that's when they would sleep. So but that's the iterative process that we talked about. you know i I would go into something thinking this is the way that it should be, yeah and never giving myself um the opportunity to flex what that would look like in a different stage of my life. And you know going into an example of the iterative process with Jimmy and I, you know my husband and I,
00:19:03
Speaker
And even with my kids, it's I'm an extreme morning person. I have become you know even more so because of having children and being in the program. So my non-negotiable was, regardless of the day of the week, I would wake up at 4.30 in the morning. And it used to be 5.30. 5.30 was not early enough. Then I would scooch it up another 15 minutes, another 15 minutes. And I was like, you know what? 4.30 sounds like an ungodly time to wake up. but Because of the discipline that I've had in my life, you know what, you just do it. And within 20 to 30 minutes, I am ready to go in front of my computer. And I would say, okay, I gave myself a goal of I need to write three pages. And that would be really hard of myself because I couldn't even get a paragraph out. So
00:19:49
Speaker
the iterative process in that writing and that discipline was just making sure that I'm in front of the computer. And if I'm reading something or doing something that's even related to you know the action of writing. So between the hours of 4.30 and 7.40 to the dot am, because that's one thing that I made sure that I wanted to do every day. Although it's only 10 to 20 minutes, depending on the morning, that I'm taking my kids to school, all three of my children. That's the protected time that I have with them every single day. I will do that unless, okay, I had a breakfast meeting that I can't move. But 95% of the time, I was able to take my kids to school. So between 4.30 AM and 7.40 AM was nobody could come into my work office. And that was something that was really hard for my son to understand because the first thing that he would do when he wakes up is, where's mommy?
00:20:46
Speaker
He's the youngest. And so we have to teach him over time, you know, when this door is closed and you see that the light is on, mommy is working on schoolwork. She will come out at 740 and take you to school. So that took some time. And then after that, you know, ah of course, when my husband decided to run for office, we had to have a serious conversation about how that's going to change. our family dynamic, even the scheduling. And oh, I failed to mention because we haven't had one for almost a year. We had au pairs throughout. And for your audience who may not be familiar with the au pair system or the setup, um it's basically a living nanny. um You bring in normally, I guess it's
00:21:32
Speaker
all of our au pairs, so we had six au pairs in the span of seven years. They come from another country and what we loved about it was our kids are being exposed to people from all over the world and from different cultures. And so that was so helpful. Had we not had live-in help, it would have been extremely hard to at least navigate the first two years of me being in school. yeah again. But our last au pair up and quit on us via text message while we were on vacation a week before school was starting in my final year of the program, it was a wake-up call where we're like, you know what, Jimmy's no longer in a corporate type of job. He has more flexibility. He ended up not winning the election. You know, and I hate this term, everything happens for a reason, but had he won, we knew we would have had to have a backup immediately.
00:22:27
Speaker
And it gave us that time and space to really try and see if we could do the first time in being parents of three children of not having live-in help. It was just easy default because we had someone. I mean, now our kids are all school age. And so we're like, okay, this is a cost savings. This is time for us to at least test. We gave ourselves one semester. If we can survive a semester without live-in help, we can make this work. And so Jimmy signed on from a very get-go that he was going to be the primary ah caretaker of our kids. And had we not had that dynamic, we would have figured it out. But that was such a benefit for not just me, selfishly, obviously being so in school and work and being a mom too, but it just made me feel a lot more
00:23:21
Speaker
comfortable and i would I would be lying if I said I was guilt free. Never in the three years to this day that I'm ever guilt free. But it made me realize that, okay, you know what? One parent will be there. You know, the trade-offs are majority of the time, mommy will make it to all of the big things, but I can't be there at practice, but daddy's going to be there. You know, so we were able to to make that work and he gladly, and this is a small tangent, but when we were first dating, I remember him telling me, it must've been our second or third date.
00:24:01
Speaker
you know, when you ask those corny questions, what do you want to do with your life when you grow up or whatever? He's like, well, you know, I want to, you know, have a career. Obviously I want to be married. I want to have a family. And I want, and one day I would love to be a stay at home dad because he didn't grow up with a present father. You know, that was just something that he knew from in his early twenties or even before he was 20. That would be a dream of his and had been planning his life so he could leave the corporate sector. But obviously, when he say he's he's retired, he's busier than ever. um He's now an entrepreneur and has a lot of flexibility. But in all intents and purposes, he is that present primary caretaker that he's always wanted to be for our children. So we feel like that is a balance. Now, I'd be lying. Now, this is behind the curtains if I said that it's a perfect dynamic.
00:24:56
Speaker
It's not. There's times when, you know, just a couple weeks ago, he just asked me in passing, what was the last time that you went grocery shopping? Or when was the last time because I, you know, as I mentioned to you before, what I'm intentional about what I want. myself and my children to be consuming, like food wise, very particular about that. But I've had to learn, okay, you know what, you got to give up some of that control, because you're not the one doing the grocery shopping. So having that conversation where I was like, well, I mean,
00:25:29
Speaker
don't you think that this is the right decision? Because this is what we're feeding our children. And Jimmy's like, I had 15 minutes to go in and out. I didn't have time to sit in front and compare whatever nutritional content it is. This is what I'm going to buy. This is what we buy every single week. And this is what it is. So that one comment triggered a very short but heated conversation. It's like, don't you realize that I'm picking up so much slack here? and So yeah that is something that I've had to learn. You have to make compromises, really. you know and It's not the end of the world. It's not the end of the world if you your husband didn't buy organic strawberries this one time because he couldn't find any or it which just didn't look good. yeah i my My conversation was, couldn't you just have gone to a different grocery store that had
00:26:25
Speaker
They're in a dirty dozen. Come on. hi mean I come on now. Exactly. ah Well, I think that that's such a good point about kind of the idea that I think a lot of times our expectations as very high achieving, ambitious women is that like we want everything to be perfect, right? And like everything done at a hundred percent. And then we feel really guilty, like you said, ah you know, or disappointed or, Like we're failing if we don't check all those boxes. But, you know, to Jimmy's point, like, all right, well, if I have 15 minutes, how can I do my best with what I have? And sometimes it's it looks different than like our best pre-kids or with different circumstances, right? It looks different. And it's so funny. I love that you shared Jimmy's story because that was actually J.R. and I had a very similar conversation with the other way around.
00:27:22
Speaker
I think it was about four months in and I said, I'm in this tech startup and my plan is that I want to you know sell this and have an option in case I want to spend time. focused on our kids. I just want to be able to like have that as an option. And so like I was also actively working towards that in my twenties and setting myself up to be able to do that. And then I ended up taking two years where I did that. And now also um in an entrepreneurial role where I can have that balance. So, well, you talked a couple of times about
00:27:58
Speaker
knowing when was the right time. And it sounds like you and Jimmy both took turns going back to school. How do you know? Like, how did you decide it was the right time? So I guess we could start with Jimmy. You know, he worked in management consulting and thankfully the firm that he was working for, he worked for Bain Pre and Post Business School. He knew that he wanted to get an MBA. and he wanted it to be paid for if possible. So it was ingrained in his mind, did the research, and said, these are the companies, Bain, BCG, McKinsey, that I can work for and should work for because they are going to pay for my and MBA one day. And so we knew at year two, he was you know doing well enough in the company that they would sponsor him to go back to school, so he would go first.
00:28:49
Speaker
And so, thankfully, it worked out. And it was also a full time. Now, what I did not sign up for was the additional degree that he decided to get while he was out there. and It was another one of those conversations. Okay, there was this amazing fellowship. He's always been interested in potentially pursuing public office or something in the public sector. And they have this specific program at HBS with the Kennedy School for business students who are interested in learning more about the public sector or potentially serving in the public sector. It was dual degree and there was a fellowship that was offered to a handful of students um that were pursuing their MBA. And so he found out about this fellowship.
00:29:32
Speaker
And then one day I remember him coming back to our apartment. He's like, so what do you think about me pursuing this dual degree? And I was like. ah How much longer? Because I always thought I would go back to Dallas and then work back in retail. And I was like, I signed up for two winters, not three. So now we are, we are signing up for a third winter. But honestly, it was the best decision. He got into the program, he ended up getting the fellowship. And then if it wasn't for that extra year, I don't know if I would still continue in higher ed to be completely honest. And so there was a decision point.
00:30:10
Speaker
you know where i was like do i go back to corporate i stay in higher ed but it was the best decision that we weren't even planning for that just so happen i was like you know what this is the best intersection of the corporate sector and academia because i'm working at a business school. and I'm connecting with corporations, essentially doing what I'm doing today. And so that was the decision. The right time was, that's what you do at Bain. You work for three years, you go and pursue your MBA, then you come back after the two years, and then you have to pay them back the two years that they paid for school. Now, you went for three years.
00:30:46
Speaker
So it was, what does that look like? you know And he ended up staying three years. And then after we had our first daughter, he was like, I can't do this. so He knew he wasn't going to be a lifetime, a lifelong management consultant, but it's just hard to leave when you have those golden handcuffs. you know And I got used to it. He got used to it. Me knowing that I would stay in higher ed, I'm not going to be the breadwinner at any point. because ah But the thing that I would have to say is he always valued what I contribute professionally to our family, whether it was a percentage of our overall dual income. But he also knew that I i truly loved what I did compared to it was more of a, I need to make X number of dollars so I can leave the corporate sector by the time I'm 40. For me, I could retire in this industry. That's how much I I feel so fulfilled. and that was That was honestly what helped us stay focused on finding the right time. and Then I ended up, once Jimmy graduated from HBS, we knew we were coming back to Dallas after we did some soul searching of, oh, we can live anywhere in the world and work in any office. but um We wanted to have a family and i needed to be I really wanted to be close to my parents when that time happened. and so
00:32:08
Speaker
I knew that I was going to go back to school and we took turns. So I remember being in Boston right before we were about to leave on our, we were blessed because he was in consulting to travel all over the world. We went to seven continents in the three years that we were and that gp and um no wow in business school and we had all the miles in the world to be able to to afford. So we were able to travel and I just remember having to study for the GRE, you know, I haven't touched any of this and, but I was able to focus, right? I was able to focus. I was able to take it. And then we left on our travels. And then I knew I was going to apply. We were going to come back to the DFW area and I knew I wanted to stay in higher ed. So instead of going and getting my MBA, which I thought that I would always do, I got my higher ed degree at North Texas, University of North Texas in Denton. At the MEU didn't have their school of education or a higher ed
00:33:01
Speaker
program at that time or else it would have been a no brainer with the tuition benefits. But after pursuing that degree, I ended up getting my first role professionally at SMU and I've been there ever since. And so that's kind of how we figured it out. Like, okay, then it was, do I go part time or do I go full time? And I was like, Jimmy's like, you know what? I was able to do it full time. I'll support you in doing it full time. So I was able to finish in three semesters versus four. And then, you know, I was working Then we started a family a year after, and I've always wanted to go back and get my doctorate um once I knew that was the industry that I want to stay in. But I didn't want to go when I was still having children. I know people do it, and I know people who have done it. It was just not for me. I can't imagine having to balance all of that.
00:33:53
Speaker
pumping in between class or yeah all of the all of those things. And so I wanted to wait what I thought was an ideal time when my youngest was entering kindergarten. But like I mentioned before, it doesn't get any easier. It doesn't get less busy. The complications is just different. So there's more activities that the kids were a part of that I felt like I was missing out on. So that was honestly our journey and our conversation in figuring out what the right time was. And I also, COVID gave me a lot of time to reflect because I wasn't hosting events, going to events. I had more time to really think and and process. And when I got this notification from the university across the board, all of our grad programs were not requiring GMAT or GRE because you couldn't even take it.
00:34:44
Speaker
So I was like, I should really think about this. Because honestly, that has been like, if I have to take that GRE or GMAT again, because it expired, because by that time I had been working for, or I hadn't taken in 11 years, and the grace period is yeah
Community and Professional Engagement: Adding Value
00:35:00
Speaker
completely expired. And so I'd be lying if I didn't mention that, right? Like the fact that I did not have to study and take the darn GRE again was a huge reason why I decided to go for it at this point. Because I was like, who knows when they're going to require it again. this is This is the time. So I sat in on a virtual info session and I was like, talk to Jimmy about it.
00:35:28
Speaker
It's always a no unless you try. That's our motto in our family. It's always a no to that job if you do not apply. It is always a no to that school if you don't apply. And so it was my time to literally listen to my own words of advice and I buckled down. Obviously I talked to my boss about it. And Shane was like, I'm fully supportive. This is something that I thought that would be truly great for your future. It's a terminal degree. And I'm fully supportive. Let's figure this out. So that was how we figured out the right time. Somebody was being the sole income earner at all times.
00:36:05
Speaker
And now obviously thinking about health insurance, you know, with Jimmy being an now entrepreneur, I mean, we would figure it out if we're both in business for ourselves. But no, I like the security and obviously it boils down to I really enjoy what I do professionally because it allows me to develop in other aspects and also be engaged in the community. So that's the other piece that I forgot to mention. you know We're very involved in our community in nonprofits and the work that I get to do professionally leading corporate engagement and strategic partnerships. A lot of my professional relationships have been formed through the work that I get to do in the community. And so it goes back to finding those synergies in the intersections of life and work and the people that we meet.
00:36:53
Speaker
Jimmy's circles have intertwined with mine and his connections have really benefited me professionally as well, and vice versa. So we're blessed and people ask, is Dallas a forever home for you? And I said, yes, I can't imagine leaving this community that we've built for so long. And who knows, like once our kids flee the nest, but at this point, I just feel blessed in so many ways. It's not perfect. You know, Dallas or Texas, I don't think there's a perfect home anywhere, but it really allows us to be fully engaged in various aspects of our life that I believe is unique. If I had to pluck myself up and move myself to another part of the country, having to rebuild all of that is something that I don't know. I have the time or energy to do, but that's kind of how we are able to and make it work. And at least for me, just feeling fulfilled in different aspects. And if I didn't have that, it would make it a hundred times harder. Yeah.
00:37:55
Speaker
The thing that I keep like asking myself in my head is like, do you sleep? I do, but I don't sleep enough. I sleep more now. So my ideal is seven hours. Okay. No more, no less. My commitment is at a minimum of six hours, especially when I was in the program was six hours a day or a night. Now I could also say,
Strategies to Avoid Burnout During a PhD
00:38:20
Speaker
and you know, as a mom, it's the consecutive hours of deep sleep that matters more. It's quality of sleep versus quantity. Because I could sleep, they have my head on the pillow for seven to eight total hours, but in that time, I would have woken up two or three times. That is disruptive sleep is does not... Do me any good, that's when I get sick. i Because I'm physically active, that's when I literally burn out when I get sick. And I know that when I get sick, it's because I don't get enough rest. So I get between six to seven hours of sleep a night. Now it varies depending on what's going on in life. If those six to seven hours are consecutive hours of sleep or cumulative hours. So I do sleep, probably not enough in ah in a very ah you know concentrated amount of time.
00:39:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And you talked about during your program, like you constantly felt this pressure to, you know, use up every little like 15 minute increment that you had. How did you avoid burnout? How did you take care of yourself and keep going when it was like, you know, you're feeling that constant pressure and you're, you're not feeling like you can ever take downtime. It goes back to I guess two things. It's the discipline of just showing up. I'm a big Peloton person. so's like It's always the hardest part is just showing up, right? That is step one. The discipline of just showing up and and it's the muscle memory of
00:39:54
Speaker
being present on whatever it is. And then the other piece is I sprinkled in quote unquote luxuries in life. We love to travel, we love exploring the world and it's something that we do with our children. I still do that with my parents and my siblings, obviously with my immediate family now. Jimmy and I from the very beginning, even when we were dating, we said we will always travel just the two of us. And we made that as a commitment even throughout the the program because it's just so hard to connect without all the distractions. So we would pick, sometimes it would just be a weekend or it would be a week. We went to Ireland for a week, you know, or we went to Turkey in February and people are like, wait, you haven't even defended, you defend in about two weeks. Aren't you nervous? I said, hmm.
00:40:45
Speaker
I could be, but I've already made this commitment financially and then also personally to Jimmy that I'm going to make the time and we're going to do it. and The benefit of that is when you're flying for 13 hours from DFW to Istanbul, I take that time and I work on my dissertation without any distractions around. And then I would give myself an opportunity to watch a friend's episode, The On Demand. I needed that time to just unplug. yeah So that's kind of, I would build these small rewards, small or big, and that reward was if I can get
00:41:23
Speaker
We left on Valentine's Day to Turkey. like I'm going to get this done by the time I leave for Turkey. Then I can unplug while we are in Turkey and then replug because I knew I had that protected time where no one's going to distract me and I'm in this seat on a plane for 13 hours. So that was kind of how I approached not burning out. And then also I told myself, this is a season and it will pass. Knowing that this is a finite amount of time, just like when we moved to Boston, it was a finite amount of time. I knew I could, I never lived away from my family. Like this sounds crazy to a lot of people, but I grew up in a very traditional Asian family where you do not leave your parents' home until you get married.
00:42:11
Speaker
so I just knew that I would just live at home. you know I went to SMU. I lived on campus for a year because it was required for students to live on campus. But I knew that you know this is where I was going to live. I never thought about moving anywhere else until my husband and I got married and we had to move to Boston. I had a lot of anxiety about moving that far away from my family. And then I think about my parents who moved an entire continent away from their family. And so I also looked at it, the newborn phase after each kid, it's a finite amount of time I can get through this. Now, was it easy? Absolutely not. But I also knew whether it's a big event that I'm working towards or big program, work-related, it's there' it's a finite amount of time.
00:43:00
Speaker
And i I like to quote, she's amazing, Anne Chow, who's a friend and a mentor, who's a former CEO of AT and&T Business. She says, approach life as though it's a HIIT workout, because there are going to be intense periods of your time, but there's high intensity, but it's an interval of your life. So when you you know you look at this one chunk of time, that's a 30 minute HIIT workout, then you have to recover, figure out whatever that recovery is and stick to it. And you know that actually came when she mentioned that. I remember it was still during COVID because it was one of these leadership development programs that was done virtually. And I was like, that is such a wonderful way to to articulate how being a working parent or just any type of stressful time in your life, it's you view it in increments.
00:43:53
Speaker
and then decide what your recovery period looks like. And whatever makes you excited and gets you to that finish line is the way that I was able to avoid burnout. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Actually, as soon as you said that, I thought about parenthood and about all the seasons, you know, and, and and even how just like 18 years is a season of, you know, when we have kids at home and I think some seasons are super intense and, in some seasons a little less. So yeah, I think that's a really great um analogy for life in general, just that, you know, there are intense periods and and periods of recovery and rest. So I have loved hearing about your story. I've loved hearing about, you know, your takeaways and how you've done it. And I am just curious, is there anything else that you would want to share or learn that may be helpful for someone, especially maybe someone who's considering going back to school, but they're like, how in the world could I possibly do that when I have a demanding job and
00:44:51
Speaker
I have you know kids to take care of as well. Yeah, I think on that very point, it's making sure that you have a support system. And whether you're a single person or a married person or a single mother, I have to say if I did this without the life that I have, and the dependence that I had in my life, it would still remain true. You need your cohort, you need people who could pick you up when you feel like you are going down a path of mental disruption, but be very intentional about it. So as I mentioned before, I had the support of my supervisor and I understand, you know, I talk to grad students all the time where they're like, you know, my boss is not supportive of me pursuing this degree.
00:45:41
Speaker
But knowing, when I was doing informational interviews and I was always thinking about, should I even approach this? Dr. Dawn Norris, who's wonderful and still works at SMU in Student Affairs, you know she said, at the end of the day, when you're pursuing anything, any type of learning, it has to be for you. You want to do it for you. And the number two thing is, Make sure that you have that support system. So I'm borrowing this from her. It's, you know, whether it's your spouse or your parents, if you have a dog, you know, when you're in class for 29 out of the 72 hours of one weekend, who's going to let your dog out, right? So making sure you're not going to anticipate, be able to anticipate 100% of all the things that you need support on. But again, it goes back to what are your non-negotiables? How do you stay healthy for me?
00:46:32
Speaker
I wanted to exercise every single day. So how do I fit that in? And making sure that your support system is understanding of that. And then the last piece is there's no such thing as immediate gratification. In anything that we do, and that's something I still teach my children, the things that you do today may seem really, really hard and you may not see the benefit of it for a while, but just know that if you're pouring into yourself, especially in learning, And it's always worth it. And if I can do it, I promise anyone can do it because I never, ever, ever thought that I would ever become Dr. Lisa Tran at any point. I had no desire. And it wasn't until I was in the profession that I was in surrounded by amazing people and mentors and knowing other moms that have been able to make it work.
00:47:32
Speaker
like, I still don't know if I can do it. Well, their kids are in high school. They're not in elementary school. Well, then I meet moms or single moms who have a toddler. you know So it's not to say that anyone feels guilty for not doing it. It's an example of if they can do it, I can at least explore the option. Yeah, it's possible. I'll go back to my very last point. It's, it's always a no unless you try. And that's what I would say. You're never going to know if you can do it until you put your name in the hat. And as women, going back to the imposter syndrome, it just, no, I
00:48:14
Speaker
I don't think this is for me. I can't do it because ah you know of whatever reason. I think anyone can do it. There's no perfect time, but there is a right time. And knowing what that time is, is only determined by you and your support system. Wonderful. Well, thank you so, so much, Lisa, for sharing all of your knowledge and everything that you've learned and sharing your story. I really appreciate you taking the time today to talk to me and for all of our listeners. Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun. Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you everybody so much for tuning in. We will see you all next week.
00:48:55
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning in to the Executive Coach for Moms podcast. Please like, subscribe, or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.