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The Power of Emotional Healing & Authenticity in Leadership - with Jessica Trammell
70 Plays2 months ago
Join Leanna and guest Jessica Trammell as they dive deep into the intersection of personal healing and professional leadership. Jess shares her journey of processing powerful emotions to enhance her leadership skills and explains how nurturing authenticity can improve employee engagement and infuse joy into the workplace. Leanna and Jess discuss the crucial role of emotional intelligence in effective leadership, why authenticity is essential for fostering a collaborative team culture, and how healing from emotional traumas can unlock your full potential as a leader.
Full transcript available here.
Connect with Leanna here.
Connect with Jessica here.
Transcript
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to the Executive Coach for Moms podcast, where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host, Leanne Alaski McGrath, former tech exec turned full-time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic and certified executive coach. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. And thank you so much for joining me today on this almost last day of June. I don't know where the summer is going, but it's almost July. I hope you're having a wonderful summer today. I am really, really excited to share this conversation. I know I say that every time, but honestly, I just talk to the most amazing people. I love doing this podcast because it gives me an excuse to have conversations with people who inspire me. And today's guest is no exception. I,
00:01:04
Speaker
I'm talking to Jessica Trammell today. She's a vice president of marketing and mother of two. And Jess and I have known each other for over 20 years. We met in college and, and we've kind of reconnected at various points since we were in college. And every time we talk, we just have such amazing conversations. And so last time we chatted a few months back, I said, Hey, do you want to come on the podcast and like record one of these conversations? Because I love talking to you. So she agreed and I'm so grateful to her. So we covered a lot of ground. And also I feel like we could have kept talking for another five hours and still not covered everything we want to. But one of the things that Jess and I talked about is about how loyal and passionate she is. And that's something I really admire about her is that she's very clear who Jess is.
00:01:59
Speaker
And she always gives it to you straight. She is not someone who's like super outwardly emotional, but one of the things that she said at one point was that she loves so hard and that she was so afraid that she would fall in love with her baby and not want to give up time with the baby for her work. And she really, really also loves her work. And so. I wanted to learn more about that and hear about her perspective and how she has reconciled that, especially being the primary breadwinner in her marriage and kind of feeling that financial stress and pressure to perform and continue to bring money into the household for her family. So I love this conversation. I hope that you enjoy it as well. Let me tell you a little bit about Jess.
00:02:52
Speaker
Jessica Trammell is a seasoned marketing executive with over 16 years of experience in the dynamic landscape of digital marketing and growth strategy. Currently serving as the vice president of marketing for EF Go Ahead Tours, a leader in guided group travel, Jessica has consistently demonstrated her expertise in driving substantial business growth through innovative data-driven marketing strategies. With her passion for travel and proficiency in cutting edge digital marketing techniques, she has positioned EF Go Ahead Tours as a leader in the group travel industry. Jessica is dedicated to her family and to empowering women and parents in the workplace. She enjoys traveling the world and learning about other people and cultures. She actively mentors young professionals with the hope to grow and invest in the next generation of leaders.
00:03:45
Speaker
She holds a bachelor's degree in marketing from West Virginia Wesleyan college, where we met and is based in New Hampshire. And whenever I talked to Jess, she had just gotten back from miss Zurich. She is traveling all the time. If you connect with her, or follow her on LinkedIn, you will see all of her fun, amazing adventures um because she loves travel and she loves her work. She loves her family. And I hope that you. Enjoy hearing this conversation with Jeffs as much as I enjoyed having him.
00:04:24
Speaker
I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Jessica Trammell. And Jess and I have known each other since our college days, so it's been a while. And we ran into each other at a conference a few years ago and then reconnected recently. So we had this great conversation a few weeks ago. And I was like, Jess, we have to record this. I wished I had recorded it. And so she was totally up for coming on the podcast. So I'm so excited for y'all to meet her. So welcome Jess. Thank you for having me. It's really good to be here. Yeah. It's great to have you and great to see you again. Can you start off telling everybody a little bit about yourself? Yeah. So I am the vice president of marketing for a large educational travel company. I've been there now for over 12 years.
00:05:12
Speaker
And, you know, I've really been focusing on growing my career there specifically. I feel like I've been really supported in doing so. And while, while I was there, I also became a mom of two amazing kids. Just been a ah journey over the last 12 years in that transition. So that's kind of what I've been up to. Yeah. And how old are your kids? So my son just turned seven and my daughter is just turning four, my wonderful little COVID baby of transition that we went through that and learning through that process also. Yeah. And I think one of the things we talked about and and you talked about your career and what you're doing is that you are the breadwinner and in your family, right?
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah. So my my wife is a teacher, which I am beyond proud of. i One, I could never do it myself. I think that her job, I feel like is one that never gets enough credit. She also is a coach, a basketball coach of about um a high school girls basketball team and gives so much of herself in doing that. And do I think it gives the financial reward that it deserves and what she invests in? No. So I'm the financial, I guess, breadwinner of our family in that way. And in the I guess what we were talking about, like the pressure that that that brings in ah in a different dynamic, maybe traditionally, you know the traditional sense of of what um kind of the world has painted that picture to look like specifically.
00:06:43
Speaker
So it's been an interesting piece. I think especially with my upbringing, you know, my father was in the military. I was his only child, a female. And to be very honest, my dad was a little chauvinistic, um especially with a daughter. And in some ways, I think the way that he pushed me and raised me in a weird backhanded way with him preparing me for what I think he thought the world would treat and still somewhat treat women like. And there are things that I look back on and I'm really grateful for because I do think it has prepared me to deal with situations in life and also just the strength and the resilience um and the preparedness, but also even my mother who, you know, they separated when I was when she was young. She was, you know, I was only three years old. She was
00:07:33
Speaker
25 years old, 26, single mother. And also seeing her and how she navigated that, I think just helped me kind of understand where I wanted to be and where I wanted to go and understanding that process. And so how this leading up to being that financial breadwinner and that pressure, I think I had some positives that came out of all of that, that kind of got me ready to be to be okay with doing that. And I think when we were talking about it a little bit, it's like, what does that look like? as a female, having that pressure of that breadwinner and what does that look like through that lens. Yeah, and how does it feel, I think is what I am curious about because I know that many of our listeners are either the primary breadwinner or likely ah an executive or a leader who is significantly contributing to the household income. And so I know that
00:08:26
Speaker
you know, I coach a lot of women and I talk to a lot of women who are like, I make multiple six figures, but like, I'm not doing what I want to be doing. Is it crazy for me to even consider giving this up or making a different decision? So I think especially whenever it's like, there's really not that option because, you know, we don't have another source of income that would sustain us at this moment. then it feels maybe like a little bit more like, I've got to make the best of my circumstances, right? And like, and make sure that I am continuing to succeed and achieve. Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's twofold with it. it's There's a little bit of the the avenue of like feeling like you need to succeed and also provide. I mean, I think that I think there was also a different pressure that happened when we had kids also.
00:09:15
Speaker
I don't know, like there's a shift a little bit for me too, where it was like, there was like an additional pressure that came into play. yeah And I also think in some ways we aren't set up really, at least for me to not be a two working household family right now, right? Like there it's it's difficult to not be, you know? and And when you do kind of have or make that decision to be a one at some point, if that's possible, you're still doing sacrifices, even if someone's still doing really well, Like so when the way that things are set up, now it's still you're having to do sacrifices on either end. And I think I've seen plenty of friends that have kind of taken that step back and, you know, maybe not done the career, but they still had to sacrifice. And I give so much kudos to them and and what they've had to do. And then there's the other piece where you've had, that you know, me and my wife are still two people working. and And there is definitely a different dynamic to the threshold of what we each bring. But I also think there's that respect level that happens.
00:10:14
Speaker
I think the thing that kind of, I think became heavier for me when we had kids and it wasn't my wife that put this pressure on me. It almost was the self pressure of myself is that I felt like I needed to provide for this family now, this nucleus of a family that I didn't technically have per se. My parents were divorced, of course they remarried and then we have these all, obviously all my families, but you know, I had this instinct where I was like, okay, now this is my family. I have to provide for this. I need to make sure that I protect it. This, this instinct of protectiveness came over me. And I think I've always had that natural instinct to protect anybody. I think we talked about this previously. It's like, I am a little bit of a loyal,
00:11:03
Speaker
you belong, like if you're connected with me, I got your back, whether you're my boss, whether you're my colleague, you're on my team, I got you. There's a piece of me that I think that's just natural instinct that like I'll protect. And then the same thing with my family. When that, when those kids came into play, I was like, okay, I have to make sure I'm setting them up for success. And I always thought way too far in advance. And I still think I do that with that pressure of like, do I need that? Do I have enough for their college? If they want to go to college, what if they don't want to go to college? Do I have enough to make sure that we are having these experiences? Like I work for a travel organization. I see what travel does in the transformative experiences. So am I making sure that we're having those and that we're putting that aside so we can experience that? Um, are they able to do after school activities? Can I,
00:11:52
Speaker
make sure that, you know, if they want to do that trip for little league one day, can I do that? It's not going to be causing these issues. And then there's also just the whole relationship piece. Like I've always seen at least what I have heard and out what I've seen, I never wanted finances to be a part of my marriage. That became an issue. I always wanted to remove that piece. And I don't know if, ah you know, you talk about trials, I don't know if that's, you know, through divorce in my family that has been very prevalent throughout. But that was one thing I never wanted to be a factor yeah in my relationship. I just, I was like, relationships are not hard, but they're effort, right? And it was the one thing I didn't want to add a compounding factor to. yes And so it's like, what can I do to remove any mitigating risk to my relationship? So
00:12:46
Speaker
These are all well the things that I think as the breadwinner and just the overall protector mindset that I think i I live and breathe. I think those are the things that I always been thinking about and trying, striving for. Yeah. And I think what you brought up is like, basically you're sacrificing either way, right? It's just like, what are you willing to sacrifice and what are you not willing to sacrifice? And being sure that you're really clear about what your priorities are, what your values are. and making your decisions based on that so that you can feel good about however it is that you are choosing to spend your time knowing that no matter how you spend your time, we can't be in every place at one time. So we're going to be sacrificing something. And are we okay with that? Well, I think that's the biggest piece of like time.
00:13:32
Speaker
time is money. And from even just like a a personal thing, like time is so precious for me. And I think for so many people, time is so precious. And so again, I feel like I've had this evolution more so in the last couple of years. And I don't know where it's come from really, actually. I don't know if it was COVID, you know, the positives that came out of that, but there was this evolution where I just recognized how much precious time was for me, along with this family and this nucleus piece that I'm trying to provide for. and so you know Obviously, I've invested a lot into my career and and wanting to make sure that I can be successful. But I've also acknowledged that success for me isn't just about titles or saying that you've done something. right like I actually think I told you this, that we had an off-site a leadership off-site and you had to kind of put words together. and I think I sent it to you words together.
00:14:28
Speaker
And for me, if financial gains were not part of the success, like for me, like for like the, the piece of my family, then I didn't want it because the, if I'm spending the time there, it better bring something back in the long run to my family. My family at the core is the most important thing to me in the end of the day. And I think I've. acknowledged and established that a long time ago. I think it was one of the main reasons why I feared having one getting married. I feared having children. I didn't want children because I knew the moment that I did. I just knew myself that I'd have to make sacrifices and choices and I would choose them. I remember, yeah, in our last conversation, you said, I love so hard and I was afraid that I'd fall in love with my baby and not want to give up time with them for work.
00:15:23
Speaker
So how do you reconcile that? You brought up a great point in the beginning about how to reconcile. like but It's not a 50-50 balance and I do think we struggle, at least I struggle with that on a daily basis of this like perfect 50-50 balance and that I just want that so oh badly. I think we all do. yes We believe it exists. but We believe it exists. and i And I know it doesn't, but I want it. I want it. um I think the reconciliation happens in ebbs and flows. And I think it happens with this kind of jumpstart of myself sometimes when I can feel I'm tipping too far one direction or the other, to be honest. like and i And actually at that leadership offsite, one of the questions was, is when do you get the best of me?
00:16:07
Speaker
And I actually said at work, you get the best of me when I have more time with my family. i You will actually get the better Jessica A dot.Trammel. That's how you know I find myself at work. so You'll get the best of me there when I have more present time with my family. Not quality. It doesn't have to be that long. It doesn't have to be as crazy. I'm not asking for like, you know, this craziness, but it has to be present. It has to be quality. It has to be in the moment because even if I'm with them, if I feel like I'm being pulled in another direction, that is the tipping point for me of just, it's not a great place. So I think there's those moments where I have to redirect and bring myself back. And when I feel myself going in a place where I'm with them, but I'm not really with them, that's when I know I'm, I'm, ah I'm completely unbalanced.
00:17:01
Speaker
And I've shifted too far away from to the core of actually what matters to me and it's them and it whatever it is, whether that's work, friends, whatever it would be, they are my core. Yeah. And I know that so deep down. And so whatever it is, if if something is going to take me away from what I know to the truest form is what makes me the happiest, then that's when I'm like, okay, rebalance, reset myself because I've allowed the tipping to go too far. Yeah. I think we all have for sure. And what do you do? Do like do you have any strategies that you have found or you know like tangible things that you do to kind of reset yourself or get yourself back into a more ah balance that you're more happy about? So for me, I need this space to
00:17:49
Speaker
almost reset myself. And for me, my, my, my mind is very noisy with someone that has ADHD. Uh, the brain is constantly going and it's a constant spin. And so for me, what I need is everyone needs to go to bed. Kids are in bed. They go to bed pretty early, which I'm very grateful and blessed, but they, they will go to bed early. My wife needs to go to sleep. She's gone. And that doesn't happen often. Usually we actually go to bed together. It's like a thing that was like, we'll go to sleep. But, usually what I do is she'll go to sleep. And then I actually will stay up really late. And it's the moment where I sit with myself. And I kind of just been so introspective. And sometimes it results in being in the dark. And I who doesn't don't like to show a lot of emotions will cry by myself. And that's how I've always kind of been. I think we're talking about like, I don't like to show a lot, but like, I will cry by myself in the dark or
00:18:45
Speaker
It might be where I will just sit there in the dark and just be thinking about what are the things that I'm not liking about right now. And it's not to be self deprecating like ah things of like you're doing this wrong or whatever, but I just have to say it out loud and like really think about it and be present with it. Or I'm not going to shake myself enough to actually make change and sit with it and feel with it. We talked about compartmentalizing. I compartmentalize so well, sometimes too well. And if I don't feel it, If I don't feel the pain, feel the angst, feel the sadness, feel the disappointment in myself of how I was as a mother that day. If I don't feel the disappointment of how I was as maybe a boss that day or a friend or whatever is, I will compartmentalize it and I will not feel it and I won't ignore it and I won't make the change. And so for me, it's alone, late at night, dark, quiet, feel it. And I don't like to feel it.
00:19:40
Speaker
So it's, I have to, it has to get pretty bad for me to like make myself do it, knowing it. And then I, I kind of, then I see, I wake up the next day, I'll go to bed feeling pretty awful, but then what I find is that I've released it and I wake up the next day. And because of the resiliency that I think I've built up and also just who I am as a person, I'm going to make it better and I'm going to do better. I kind of set up a game plan. of like that next day is like, this is going to be a good day. Me and a really good friend, we have this saying is like, it's going to be a great day. And even if it's a shitty day, we're going to, we say we're like, it's going to be a great day. And I say to myself, it's going to be a great day. And then I just try to really focus on what I felt, what I've acknowledged, and now what are you actually going to do to make it feel better and not sit in those, those moments too long, because
00:20:31
Speaker
by sitting there in self-deprecate and just like kind of saying that in that moment, that also does not help make the situation any better. And I find that I need to then like get through it and move and move through it. So that's kind of what I do. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. I think, you know, obviously we all have our processes of how we do this, but I think one of the underlying kind of universal things is like space, right? Like we need to have some space to sit with ourselves, whether it's like by ourselves in the dark or with a coach or counselor or friend or you know partner that we're like sitting there and and talking it through or that we're sitting there and thinking through, but it's like having the space to kind of check in and also processing our feelings. I think, I love that you said that, especially as someone who doesn't love feelings.
00:21:23
Speaker
So much. I mean, don't get me wrong, I still you go to a therapist here, like everyone's therapy is the best. Co-consecutive coaching therapy, still got to do that for sure. Absolutely. But kind of like having that space to to check in and and to recalibrate, I think is what you're saying is like, am I doing this the way I want to do it? What what do I need to change? You know, what recalibrations do I and do i want to make? Yeah. I mean, I think that's the other thing is like, look, i've I've been going to therapy and love therapy and, and think it's amazing or whether it's an executive coach. I think that what I've learned through the years of doing that though, is not waiting till those times happen. I think what I do at that nighttime is everything I've learned on how to actually process healthy processing. And I think that's the transformation that occurred. And I think that's what's really important to your point of like when to do it. I think sometimes people wait.
00:22:17
Speaker
to those specific moments because it's almost forced. I think a lot of people, this to this point of compartmentalizing, we all do it depending on how well you do it. Some people do it great. Some people actually don't even do it that well. like You know like when they're at work, like you can tell something's wrong and you're like, are you okay? like What's happening? like i get like I can feel people's feelings really easily, but I think sometimes people are so good at it that it takes that appointment to almost make them start to assess, and I think What I would say is sometimes it's not good to wait until that moment and to force yourself to do it a little, start at least working on it a little bit. Even if you're not sure how to work through it, at least allowing yourself to start feeling it and at least feeling the uncomfortable and a little bit of that angst, I think could unlock a little bit once you go to therapy or get to the coach or you get to whoever that friend that you need to.
00:23:09
Speaker
I think it would help you maybe move faster as part of that. But I think sometimes it's scary to do it alone also though. yeah It can be scary to do a alone. so But also, let's be real, I've been doing therapy for many years. so and say And I think, too, it's kind of like a societal belief that that we're taught that like we've got to prioritize everybody else before we prioritize ourselves. And so several years ago when I was trying to do this like executive and having a baby at the same time, I would have a really hard time. And what I noticed is that I would only let myself like take a break
00:23:47
Speaker
or give myself any time when I was like there at that breaking point because it was like before that felt, I don't know, selfish or like, who am I to take that time for myself? Who am I to even like say that I need it and and is that okay? And I think I had a really hard time with that until I really recognized that that wasn't helping anybody, right? Because it would be like, I would get to that breaking point and then I would just kind of like snap at people that I loved or you know not really be available to them in the way that I would want to be, not show up in the way that I would want to show up, not show up at work as as well as I wanted to show up. and so What I realized is like, it's my responsibility to recognize this within myself and to take care of myself and not let myself get to that breaking point every time, but like catch it sooner. You know, like I've gone, we've gone through these cycles so many times in our lives. Like at some point we've got to figure out how to like, like at what point it makes sense to do some kind of intervention and, and stop ourselves from getting, you know, too far gone. Well, I think, but you just bring up, brought up a great point about the self accountability.
00:25:02
Speaker
I don't think everybody does that, ah that acknowledgement for themselves of like, when is that too much? And I think, I think it's hard to acknowledge when is that point through your yourself and also acknowledging when is it you versus others? Like, when is this a you thing versus other thing? Like, I find that sometimes I'll be super like, I'm just like, Oh, why like, this is bothering me and everything's so frustrating. And I'm like, it's me. It's a me thing, but it's because it's it's not one big thing. It's all these little things that just started to add up and they are just toppling on top of one another. And it's the smallest little thing that would not normally do anything has now just been put on the top and it just crumbles and it's crumbled over. I'm not sure though, in those moments, unless you really started to practice self-reflection,
00:25:57
Speaker
if people always recognize that it's more on them than the fact that they externally project that it's everybody else. And all of the circumstances surrounding. And all the circumstances that are surrounding it. And I think that is really hard to practice. I'm still not the best at it. And there's still some things I think I'm like, no, I deserve to be frustrated. This is really annoying. And you're frustrating me. But there are times where I'm like, is this moment deserve the frustration that I'm giving it? Or am i am I giving it more frustration because of all the other things that now have added up to make this now one thing? It's getting the brunt of the five things before it. Yeah. I literally just saw this and I loved it. This quote, it says heal so you can hear what's being said without the filter of your wound. And I think it's like, we've got so much under that one thing that, you know, you put on top and crumbles everything and it's our job.
00:26:57
Speaker
It's our responsibility to deal with that and to not let it pile up. At the same time, we know how hard that is. how so hard Right. And how how hard it is, especially as a working mom to try and like find the time to do that and to set aside that time. But I think especially as people who love to take care of other people, whenever we can recognize that it is in service to us, but it's also in service of our children, of our partners, of our workplaces, of everyone around us that we
00:27:28
Speaker
take care of ourselves and have that self-accountability to check in with ourselves and to heal the things that are causing you know causing us to be triggered or be really bothered whenever someone says something at work that we're like, that's interesting, right and kind of checking in with that. I think that would make a lot of people more successful even at work. right like Even just within themselves of trying to understand themselves in relation to what past trauma are you bringing either from your personal life or even past trauma from previous work experiences to your work environment that potentially are holding you back from expanding your relationships, creating positive pieces in the work and it would you know with your coworkers or your your new boss or whatnot. like I find that I've experienced that with a couple of people that I've you know hired and I've had to call them out and say, i have I have a gentleman that works for me and I've had to be like, hey,
00:28:25
Speaker
Can we have like real talk? And he was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I feel like you're bringing in something from the past into this conversation. And he was like, Oh, yeah, I am. I was like, you don't have to worry about that. Like with me. I mean, I know how bad it was. Like we've talked about it. Like, I know it, like that's not the same. And so it is just super interesting how much the self-awareness has to occur on the home and, and work. It's just, it all bleeds together. Yeah, but here's what I love about what you're saying. That self-awareness helps you show up as a better leader. Like the fact that you do it for yourself and you can recognize it in yourself helps you to recognize it in other people and in your team to be able to say like, hey, like, you know, in the story that you just said, and like, hey, this might be showing up here. You wouldn't have known that that was the thing if you hadn't been doing the work yourself. Thousand percent. The work that I've done for myself,
00:29:23
Speaker
I hope makes me a better leader for everyone that I'm, that I'm leading. And I hope that it, I show up for them in a way that brings them to be motivated and come to work and want to be at work and and do things. But I, I think that I try to lead by bringing an authentic self, but also being someone that cares about other people. Like I just can't show up to work and put that again, we talk about time and money. My time at work is away from the things that are the most important to me. And so I can't spend time with people that are not, it's not authentic. If it's fake, if it's political, if it's not real and they're not real relationships, I don't want it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I will remove myself from situations very quickly. I won't do it. And so I think that's how I lead, at least with my, with my own team. I want meaningful connection. I want to be there for them. I want to.
00:30:18
Speaker
be my most authentic self, but I also want them to be the most authentic self. I want to call it how it is. I want to help them see where maybe they're, you know, coming from a place where I'm like, let's take a step back. And, you know, it's not trying to be a therapist by any means, but it's just more trying to help bridge the gap that we all spend too much time working together and just working in general in life for it not to be enjoyable, authentic, and just this experience of semi, like joy. It needs to be joyful. If it's not, then why are we doing it? And why are are we away from the thing that matter to us? and and And that's not just kids. That's not just family. That can be the hobbies that we're not doing or just the things that are important to us. And so I think that's what I try. At least what I try, I want to do. I try really hard. Not saying it happens all the time, but I think I try to create that type of culture.
00:31:15
Speaker
even in the day-to-day at my work, because it needs I want it to feel that way. you know what i try to What I say that I do for myself, I want to try to bring that into the office culture too. Yeah. I remember you saying you have to love your work to want to keep doing it after kids. Really, love what you're doing to feel good about spending that time away from your kids. And I think what's so interesting about what you're saying is like I think a lot of people look at work and i and recently Gallup just came out with their seat of the workforce report that they do every year. And it was really interesting hearing them talk about the low levels of employee engagement and here in the United States
00:31:55
Speaker
we were on an upswing, like we were headed in a positive direction until 2020. And since COVID, our levels of employee engagement have actually dropped. Whereas they've continued to grow globally the ah from 2023 and 2024, it stayed the same. But what you're just describing, it's like you have that fulfillment when you're at work. So it doesn't feel like you're missing out on something at home, right? It's like you're still, feeling fulfilled, you're still like filling your cup, right? And you're still like getting something out of it. It's not like you go to work just to give and just to like produce, but you're like going there and you're enjoying it. And you are able to like make these authentic connections because you're prioritizing that. And so that feels a lot more life giving than life draining.
00:32:51
Speaker
which is I think how so many people unfortunately feel about the work. Like I just have to go there and make the money so that I can pay for everything. And then, you know, be upset that I'm taking time away from my kids and then come home and like spend like the few hours I can with the kids. And it sounds like you're saying like, no, like I am really actively creating a situation where I can enjoy that time as well as the time with my kids. I mean, I try, right? Like it's not always rainbows, and butterbu but it's not perfect, but yeah, it's not perfect. Of course. and sure I need to do that. I think part of that creating and focusing on that within the culture that we're trying to do, I always had the same with like my team and I've always been very honest. it The moment that you're working for a company that you feel like you're giving more than you're receiving back, it's time to mutually leave.
00:33:47
Speaker
It's time to leave. I don't want you to stay ever if you ever feel like I'm not giving back as much as you're giving me. That should never happen. and If it is, and then one, we should have a conversation about it, that's how you're feeling, and then let's fix it, but I don't want that. and so i I think it's super important that when when that happens, there's ah there's a disconnect. and I think most company cultures that don't focus enough on the piece of what are you doing to give back, and it's not just giving back of like growth and development. And this if is like, it's true, like connection, like, yeah, authentic human connection, authentic human connection. And even at my level, I, no matter who comes on my team, I meet every single person before they're hired. I don't allow anybody to be hired in the team without meeting them first, because it's this pond that I look at as such a healthy, beautiful, thriving place. One sickly,
00:34:47
Speaker
toxic plants or fish that gets put in can ruin it all. And so it's the one piece that I haven't given up yet. I mean, I'm not in a huge, I only, I only have 28 people right now on our teams. It's not a gigantic team, but like there's 28 and I've met every single person before they've been hired. And I hope to continue that. I hope not to lose that connection with everyone so that we don't ever, we don't lose that piece of it. That's the place that will, that meet to your point, it needs to stay happy and and healthy and fulfilled, or it's not worth it. Yeah, not for you, not for anybody else there. In the Gallup conversation the other day was actually the chief
00:35:26
Speaker
People officer, chief HR officer at Etsy was talking and she asked some questions that I just love. She said, how are we developing people leaders that can lead the modern workforce, people who can build trust and build connection, especially in a distributed workforce, those who can hold a high bar for performance, but also be empathetic and have conversations about wellbeing. And that's not every leader, but I do think that whenever we think about preparing for the future and the kind of workplaces that we want to work for and and that make our society better just because the people who work there enjoy it and then like they come home. I think employee engagement is like such an important thing for us to be focused on because the more people in our world,
00:36:12
Speaker
who enjoy their work, who go into work and feel happy and connected and fulfilled, they're gonna come home and they're gonna be better people to their families, right? Like they're gonna be able to show up with reserves, like feeling fulfilled and and and show up from that place rather than feeling like depleted from you know the work sucking the life out of them all day. They're gonna go out in their communities and they're gonna show up better there. And it's it just has a ripple effect. I mean, I just love the focus that you're talking about on that real authentic human connection and employee engagement, because I think it's so important. It truly makes the world a better place. If we show up better for our kids, we're creating the next generation right now. And whenever we are doing that, showing up feeling fulfilled and feeling engaged is going to just make us much better parents than if we are constantly hating our lives, hating our work and feeling completely depleted from it.
00:37:09
Speaker
I mean, if that isn't a ah cycle that is hard to break, right? You know, that's what I'm saying about that restart at night sometimes. And I don't know why the nighttime for me, it's like, it just feels like you can like almost end it on the worst note possible. And then it's like you reset so you can go to sleep. But like, I do think there's that cycle that continues to have miserable at work coming home. Then you're feeling miserable at work. you You yell at the kids and then you're, you feel bad about that. And then you. You're sitting there and going to bed. Well, I'm just going to go to sleep because I had a horrible night. And then you go to bed because you didn't and then you go straight to bed because you're so tired, but you did no reflection and then you wake up and you're kind of in a bad mood because you didn't actually reflect. Like it just becomes this vicious cycle of the same thing. And I think there's that at some point you got to shake it up and and and I don't know where it is for every person, but I do think sometimes you have to kind of break some part of the cycle wherever it is at.
00:38:04
Speaker
and And I think some people do that through taking a vacation, maybe he's doing a field trip, going to your kid's school and doing a field trip day and remembering like, but like having that moment of being present or, you know, like me at night. But I think, I think breaking the cycle is to me is the biggest first step and not continuing to stay in it. Yeah. I mean, I think that idea of breaking cycles is, that's what leadership is to me, recognizing that we're in a cycle that's been repeating and we want to stop it. Like we don't want to continue it and we take some kind of action or intervention to make a change, right? Otherwise,
00:38:40
Speaker
just like repeating the cycle over and over again for their whole lives until we die that is held to me that is the worst kind of life for me i just think that whenever we can break those cycles in our workplaces you know and and whenever for leaders are the ones who need to do that. And whenever we can do that in our parenting and at home and in our relationships and how we treat each other, I just think that that is the work of our generation. And so many people that I talk to are doing that and it's so inspiring. And I love talking to and hearing from other people like you who are doing that work and who are intentional and present enough to like notice whenever a cycle needs to be broken. Yeah, i one that I started during COVID but that we kept doing and we've had to evolve it.
00:39:25
Speaker
Cause as the team gets gotten bigger, it needed to be evolved. But the, what we do every other week right now is a 45 minute, we call it coffee chat. And the team I break up the team and on teams now, because we're so big and it needs to stay intimate, but we come up with a topic every other week break up in teams. So they're smaller groups. There's like 14 of us in each, each breakout. And it's a random topic and we talk about it and it's nothing about work. It literally is just the most random topic, but there's a reason I do it. And I don't think everybody real like really understands why I do it, but it's like one of the topics might be like, what's your favorite thing to do the spring in the springtime? Or like, what's your favorite candy bar? was like I mean, ive we've done the gamut of topics. Like what monopoly piece would you choose? Like it's the crazy thing.
00:40:13
Speaker
but it's exactly what you said. It breaks the cycle. It takes the pause. It creates the authentic connection between people. It creates those moments of fun and razzing each other potentially in those moments. It creates those lasting memories that you might remember about somebody and it brings it up in the future. And I think that's the piece and that creates the pause. Do I think anybody maybe understands maybe why I do these and they but some of them feel like, why are we doing this again? And it's like, it's important. in those moments when we get so excited of just getting the work done, especially with the kind of work that we are, we're a very fast paced environment. and We are constantly trying to beat our goals and get that much bigger. It's important to just break it a little bit and have those moments of pause. So I couldn't agree with you, couldn't agree with you more.
00:41:00
Speaker
Yeah, and i I mean, I think as high achievers, we just like tend to go, go, go, and and it really is harder. I think it's easier almost to just keep going, put our heads down, keep checking the boxes, keep doing, you know, doing our thing and kind of grinding through than it is to lift our heads up and look around and stop. before we turn on record which i wish i had started recording earlier we were talking about compartmentalizing and kind of how you know whenever we have big emotional things happen in our lives like the loss of a loved one how we may have to like put it on hold like kinda deal with like the logistics of it.
00:41:34
Speaker
and then deal with it a little bit, right? And then go into our board meeting and you were talking about like, then flying to Zurich and doing our next our next big thing. I love how you were talking about setting aside time for decompressing and processing. And I think that that is something that, again, it's like so hard to take that pause. and set up that time for ourselves. But I'm curious, like, how do you create that for yourself, justify it, feel like it's ah an important use of time for you? So I lost my grandmother just a couple of weeks ago and she was a huge, huge person of my life. Definitely helped raise, was a huge factor in my life in raising me. and
00:42:18
Speaker
I feel really grateful to have been there when she took her last breath. And what I was telling you is that that morning I was, I was actually going to work on my, ah we call them, it was like a board meeting deck with her and cause they were due the next day and I didn't get it done. So I had to work on it that very next day to get it done. And that compartmentalization was probably the hardest I've ever had to do in my career, probably from a true emotional perspective, or I had to just go like the go mode. And I was hurting, but like I had to be in go mode. And so, and not that my work was not being great. I mean, they were being lovely about it, like they were seeing so but i but I just I'm a doer. So I, I got the deck done, I got it done. And then we have the funeral. And then I, you know, left from the funeral a few days later to go direct for the board meeting. And then I come back and we have lots of events happening. And then that we're here. And what I what I would say,
00:43:14
Speaker
is the previous me years ago would probably have not divulged too many people of how bad I was hurting at work. I was not never a sharer. I just, I struggled really hard previous to previously see that this work where I'm at to share. And even more so previously had a hard time sharing with people that reported to me. I never wanted to burden my direct reports or my team. that of anybody that reported to me with any of my issues because I always wanted to be, you know, kind of like the breadwinner, the protector, the person that someone could come to, I wanted to be that for them and never wanted to burden. But I would say more over the last year or two, I have been more open of stating when I am not in a good headspace and being open about it.
00:44:08
Speaker
and you know, especially with this one specifically saying, um, you know, I remember the day after I did the board meeting, I said to my boss, Hey, I'm in a really bad head phase. Like I did the meeting. Yay. You know, I'm in Zurich. I just mentally could not go into the office the next day. Like the next day I'm in there. I had to work from the hotel. I just could not get myself. It was like, everything hit me all at once. recognizing and I could not compartmentalize. And so I acknowledged it. That would never have happened previously, right? And I think part of that is through my work that I'm doing with myself, but also just, I don't know if it comes with age or just like your, this reflection and also like with your children and you're wanting them to do better, like you want to do better for them. And we talked about this, like breaking generational trauma and things like that, like,
00:45:03
Speaker
I have to do it myself if I expect them to also do it. And so I'm also trying to be more vulnerable and open with when I'm not doing well. And so I had to tell my God, I was like, I can't, I can't do this. And of course she was like, of course, like don't, I'm like, and why would I ever think she wouldn't, but like, it's just not like me to show that side of what I would consider from a chauvinistic military man father, that side of like what I would consider weak. Like I have a lot of weakness to come in and I'm now showing it. I'm putting it on display and telling so that that's kind of where that happened. And then obviously I fly home and then go mode of like, my kids are so ecstatic. I'm home. Like they were not happy. I was leaving, you know, after all this stuff that was happening. And then I had a work event. And what I started to recognize was I'm not okay.
00:45:55
Speaker
I have not acknowledged what has really happened. I haven't felt it. Like if we talk about feeling like it comes in bubbles up and I can feel it at night when it's quiet. And I'm like, if I don't acknowledge and deal with this, it's going to eat at me because she was so important. So I recognized that and I i was like, you know what? I'm going to take, so this coming up next week, I have ah ah a leadership onsite, I have a big day at work, and then I'm taking Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday off. And I cleared my schedule. I blocked it and I'm not doing anything crazy. I'm not like planning anything. I'm literally just taking it off and I'm not trying to fill the days, but I'm also trying to just be present and a little bit of that's being like hang out with my son, but also just one of the days I'm just going to focus and go to the cemetery again and just be in the moment and acknowledge that. And I guess long story of what I, what I'm saying about all of that is that
00:46:54
Speaker
I still went into go mode. I'll acknowledge that I didn't, I didn't, you know, in, in what I would say crumble or, you know, break under the pressure. I don't think, I think that's one of my superpowers is that in the heat of stress or really bad times, you can count on me and I will get stuff done or I will be my but the protector of whoever's around. But what I can acknowledge now is that that compartmentalization is, is not healthy to do for a long period of time. At some point, you need to acknowledge what has happened and what has occurred and need to deal with it because it will bubble up. Whether you want it to or not, it's going to bubble up and translate into something, whether it's your parenting, whether it's your relationship with yourself, whether it is a partner, whether that is at work with someone that just doesn't do something and then it
00:47:47
Speaker
explodes or it's going to show up. And so I've acknowledged that I know that about myself. And so I'm going to address it. And I'm going to do things that I think will help that and work through it and try to have those more present moments. And then hopefully not, you know, I don't think it's putting to bed. I think this is going to be some things that I'm going to have to continue to emotionally feel for a little bit. And I'll think I'll continue to feel but I think having at least being gracious with myself, kind to myself and taking those days and saying it's okay. It's okay to take off from work. The job is still going to get done. I and implicitly trust this team. I know they got my back because I have their back and I need to be okay with asking for help.
00:48:35
Speaker
And I also have been very honest with my team that I, ah along with my boss, but even with some of my direct reports that I'm not doing so hot. So I need to take couple of days off to to make sure I can come back stronger. So that's kind of a little bit of what I'm doing and how I've approached it. Well, I so appreciate you sharing that. Obviously like grief comes in waves and so but We can't like schedule to say like, okay, like I'm going to do this and then it'll be done. Of course, and as you said, but I do love that you're like intentionally taking some time and saying like, I am going to spend some time with this and process this. And I also think, like I said, kind of our our stress response a lot of times I think is to go, go, go.
00:49:17
Speaker
at least I know mine is because that feels more comfortable than like sitting in the unknown with the uncomfortable feelings. I also love going back to like what you said before about being authentic with your team. I think authenticity and vulnerability go hand in hand. And so, you know, like you saying like, Hey, actually, I'm not doing so great. I mean, if you like didn't, then you wouldn't be being authentic, right? You wouldn't be creating the kind of environment that you want to create because I'm sure you would want to know that about one of your teammates if they, you know, we're, we're having a tough time as well. But I think also just like the idea that it's okay for us to not be okay all the time, especially as leaders, we just hold ourselves to this like ridiculously high standard. It's okay for everybody else to not be okay all the time, but like not us.
00:50:06
Speaker
Right. That's the hard part. like Like I felt like when I hit a certain leadership position, it was like, okay, you cannot have emotion. You cannot, you cannot show people that you're frustrated. You cannot like, and I think there is a level of like, you need, you have a higher expectation to like be very respectful and control things. And I think it's all about how it comes across, right? And being in the way, but like, and I think in general, I've never been one to show emotion. And I think a little bit of that's about how I've just always struggled with that, but especially as a leader, I always thought about it as a burden. yeah I didn't want to burden my team with my stuff. I didn't want to burden my boss. They already have enough on their plate. Why do I want to burden them with my emotional baggage? Like that's in my mindset, how I would work. I'm like, I don't want to bar burn my boss with my stuff.
00:51:00
Speaker
She has so much on her plate. She's so busy. It took everything in me to write her, to just even write her and be like, you can't come. It feels too heavy. I can't even explain to you to hit send. I was like- That was so brave of you. Okay, I did it. But I was so proud of myself. I was so proud of myself. I've known her for 12 years. There is no fear factor that that was going to be repercussions. There's literally nothing. It was just that I don't like to burden people. yeah It has nothing with this fear factor that I think is something bad. It's this this sense of burdening. And I think women in general do not like to burden. And I'm like, where does this come from? Our workplaces were created by men with male values and
00:51:50
Speaker
So like there are certain emotions that are allowed to be shown in the workplace. And there are certain ones that are supposed to be left at the door, right? Like we're allowed to show anger or passion at the workplace. But if it brings us tears, like my dad is also ex-military and I wouldn't describe him as chauvinistic, but he definitely said many, many times like you do never cry at work. And I remember I like We were going through a merger and it was like so high emotional. and And our CEO and CFO got fired and I cried. And I was like so hard on myself because I was like, oh my gosh, like i I'm not supposed to feel these things at work. So I think there's that. And then I think there's just this, the burden thing. I hear that from so many women. And I think it's like, because this is a generational thing where we're kind of taught that like,
00:52:43
Speaker
we aren't allowed to have these big emotions, right? What are we to like go to your room? yeah It's like go and deal with that somewhere else, but like not here. Like we don't yeah we don't want to hear that crying or that you're upset or that kind of thing. And so I think we kind of take that on as like, if I share my I'm going to say quote unquote negative emotions because I don't think they're inherently positive or negative, but like our societies labeled them negative. If we show that, then we're burdening somebody or like, like we've done something wrong. Like we were weak by showing that and we should have been able to hold it together. We should have been, we should have gone into private and dealt with that.
00:53:26
Speaker
ourselves. We never air our dare dirty laundry, right? And so it's like all these societal things that I think are put on us, these expectations, and then we take on ourselves. But what is actually more effective is what you're talking about. It's being authentic and real with people. It's what Brene Brown talks about with authenticity and vulnerability and that those two things are the necessary components for true connection. Like you can't have true connection without that. You can't have true connection if you're holding back who you are and how you're feeling all the time. And you certainly can't expect other people to be real with you.
00:54:06
Speaker
in whatever ways that they're uncomfortable being real with you, if you're not gonna be real with them in the ways that you're uncomfortable being real with them. It's so true. The burning in itself and just the feeling like you're putting someone out, it's awful. And and what you brought up, it's so interesting thing of like going to your room, being by yourself to do, I mean, that is such a generational thing. And then I find, I mean, even how to your point, I process a lot on my own, I don't want my kids to have to process on their own. And so like, Even when we do, we call them time in, first time out. So like, if my son is really overstimulated or needs, you know, a moment by himself, we'll remove him for obviously from the situation. But one of us go upstairs with him to lay in the bed with him and we'll, we'll lay there and we'll like, do you want, would you like a hug? No. Okay. Would you, did you like to talk about? Nope. Okay. And then someone until the turn was like, yes, I would like a hug.
00:55:02
Speaker
right? But it's like, we're there with him. So we don't ever want him to feel like he has to at that moment, just as especially young to process by himself. Yeah. and Because I always had to process by myself. And this is where I feel like it's translated into this burdening behavior. And I think as he gets older, obviously you want you want them to start to learn how to process when they're in the right but I never wanted to feel like as a as a consequence. I never wanted to feel like as a punishment to process by yourself. Processing is fine to do it by yourself, but I didn't want it to ever be like a punishment to process by yourself. Agreed. And so that's why like when we have done this like removing from a situation, it's been called a time in. So it kind of got reminded me of that situation of like what I hope my son does differently than I do of not feeling burdened by his emotions to somebody else.
00:55:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And also being able to like, have emotions in front of another person. Yeah, like what a novel concept. We can all have some big emotions at times. It's all about how you how you come back from it, but also just like how it also comes out. Like I think there's healthy and unhealthy and healthyy and And I think that's the one of the things that I've always kind of said about like in the workplace as a leader too. And I also think it's about tone, but I think it's all so about how your tone comes across. I think you can get angry, but it's about your tone of how you get angry. I think that you can be frustrated, but it's also like your tone of how you get frustrated. Like I think that sometimes the way that we, not that we're held to this different standard, but I think that sometimes there is some,
00:56:39
Speaker
methodical ways of doing things as a woman that I have maybe had seen that we've had to do differently. Yeah. And whether it's right or wrong, different, but I do think that it's important to show that emotion at work at times. Like I think it shows passion. I think it shows the realness and I think it's okay. Yeah, well, oh my gosh, we could talk for hours, I know. Maybe we'll just have to have you back again and we'll just call these real talks with Jess. Anything else that's on your mind that you want to share in closing?
00:57:14
Speaker
I think for a lot of a lot of women in general, like it is this whole balance and just this idea of how to go from a working to home and to understanding like what's important. and I think my biggest piece of advice is really to just start to carve out some of the time to start figuring out what are the pieces that matter and start actually allowing yourself to feel the uncomfortable. I think sometimes the uncomfortable, we don't want to feel it because sometimes we don't know how to change it. And so if we feel it, then it might also make, we might think it might make things feel worse or that it's not, that it we're going to now be in this rut of like negativity. But I think at some point you have to feel some of the uncomfortable to know how to create momentum and figuring out those kind of steps and don't allow the super power of compartmentalizing that I think women have to hide it all. So I think that's my biggest piece is carve out some time.
00:58:10
Speaker
No matter what, even if it's at 11 30 or midnight, like me to do it. I love it. Well, thank you so much Jess. And one thing I'll say that you kind of going back to that way you just said there and what you were saying earlier, it's just remembering that it's not like a one and done, right? It's like an ongoing thing. It's not like we like get into balance and then we stay in balance forever. It's like we're constantly teetering back and forth. We're constantly figuring it out and we constantly are recalibrating. So that's one of the things I'm taking away from our conversation today to keep in mind. So thank you so much for this conversation, Jess. I just love talking to you. So thank you for being here and thank you everyone for listening. We'll see you all next week.
00:58:58
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning in to the Executive Coach for Moms podcast. Please like, subscribe, or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.