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Raise a Glass to That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis (Space Trilogy Part 3)
8 Plays1 hour ago
Eric and Hunter infiltrate the N.I.C.E. and get into the ideas that shaped C.S. Lewis's third space trilogy book.
The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.88346/page/n9/mode/2up
The Inner Ring by C.S. Lewis: https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/
Research and testimonial based information about the harmful effects of pornography and its links to sex trafficking: https://fightthenewdrug.org/
Quoting Sam Altman from this article: "Sam Altman, the chief executive of OpenAI, has compared the need to build AI data centres to having to choose between curing cancer and improving public education. In a blog post last year, he said: “If we are limited by compute, we’ll have to choose which one [curing cancer or improving public education] to prioritise; no one wants to make that choice, so let’s go build.”
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Raise a Glass' and C.S. Lewis Discussion
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Raise a Glass, the podcast where we discuss the stories and storytellers that shape us. I am Hunter Danson. And I am Eric Lentila.
00:00:37
Speaker
And today we are talking about That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis, the third and final book in his space trilogy, which we have done more or less in order.
00:00:54
Speaker
This has been a very long trilogy with a very quick ending. yeah ah Yeah. But before we get there, Eric, what's in your glass?
C.S. Lewis' Poetic Connection to Whiskey and Beowulf
00:01:10
Speaker
I would like to begin with a newly found poem from C.S. Lewis related to a drink that is not in my glass. Okay. Mod kriv ne wag.
00:01:24
Speaker
by C.S. Lewis. Apologize for any pronunciation mispronunciation. Hail, O hostess, whose heart knows not the temper of plieb. Talk was kindly.
00:01:35
Speaker
Wetted with whiskey the white blanket. Winter's weaving worked about us till the house was hushed the hearth brighter. and bedtime better in billowy nest, the strange stretched stove beside him, blessed blanket warm blithely slumbered, through noiseless night noble weaver, of people's peace your poor servant, not wilt by name, a knee bended, gives you grand mercy for a guest friendship.
00:02:11
Speaker
Nice. That is a newly found um poem um written by C.S. Lewis on whiskey and warm blankets.
Hosts' Drinks and Irish Heritage Connection
00:02:22
Speaker
He wrote it in 1935 on from Magdalene College in Oxford where he taught. One may be especially interested to hear C.S. Lewis using Old English as this was a thank you poem from one medievalist to another would have understood the language and the allusions to Beowulf.
00:02:43
Speaker
m He wrote it after visiting the Manchester home of Dr. Ida Lillian Gordon, specialist in medieval English and Old Norse. I'd say it's especially interesting interesting as a Tolkien fan, because usually when you think of Old English, you think of Tolkien and Beowulf.
00:03:01
Speaker
Right. And Tolkien's love for languages, not C.S. Lewis. Right.
00:03:07
Speaker
Well, C.S. Lewis was was up there, too. He was studying. Of course. Same things. But I have a mixture of Bailey's and Amaretto.
00:03:20
Speaker
Oh, very nice.
00:03:25
Speaker
little watered down after. me put the ice cube in a while ago, but I use a big so spherical ice cube. Mm-hmm. I was going whiskey, but I realized that I had already drank the whiskey on the podcast.
00:03:39
Speaker
I don't have that options. Also, interesting enough that Bailey's is floating on the Amarillo. Yes.
00:03:52
Speaker
Our very attentive listeners would be very upset if you repeated whiskeys, the same whiskey. What? Did I say whiskey? You said you didn't. No, you said you didn't do the whiskey because you had done it on a previous episode.
00:04:10
Speaker
o And I wonder how many of our listeners would pick up on that. Well, we can't be... We've got to iterate. We can't be repetitive. yeah People will listen to this show because we give new pizzazz ah and are they never know what is actually in our glass. um I'm fairly certain a lot of our listeners just listen to the first 15 minutes so they can get through us talking about what we're drinking. Because, you know...
00:04:43
Speaker
Speed and efficiency of language is this is our primary objective. Hunter, what is in your glass and what do you have to open it?
00:04:56
Speaker
I have a Guinness. Okay. Oh, nice. Since C.S. Lewis was born in Ireland. Mm-hmm. And I do have a little bit of Irish in me. and I would have gotten a Guinness out too.
00:05:10
Speaker
This is a nitrogenated Guinness.
00:05:17
Speaker
In case anybody's wondering, Hunter does not have Guinness glass, like officially from Guinness. But it is very pretty looking, and he's waiting for the head to decrease. You can see the little bit of the fun movement bubbles.
00:05:42
Speaker
Is it on his nose? On his mustache? On his beard? Nope. Looks like a... Oh, must have been a little bit on his mustache. He just rubbed his How was it, Hunter? It's good. i I enjoy Guinness. I actually really enjoy nitrogenated stouts.
00:06:00
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. It just adds an extra smoothness. It's good stuff. um've I've had a couple of them. had a black and tan recently.
00:06:12
Speaker
which is Guinness floating on top of a hard cider. Oh, wow. Which I've learned I like if the hard cider is not sweet. Okay. If it's very dry, or really enjoy it.
00:06:30
Speaker
So ah what are you raising and pouring your Baileys and Amarillo for this week?
Springtime Excitement and Gardening Reflections
00:06:40
Speaker
there's a name for that particular combination.
00:06:42
Speaker
So there's 20 names. um
00:06:49
Speaker
We are in spring. I'm loving the beautiful weather and my plants, my seedlings are getting ready. and So I'm raising glass to that.
00:07:02
Speaker
Coming of summer, um the chance to plant my garden. I'm very excited about that.
00:07:11
Speaker
um And Just kind of continue on that Light rest light light type of thing I'm pouring one out for the lingering winter it snowed last Monday Yeah It's really been chilly here And like It's it's sunny and it's like oh it's gonna be A nice day and it's like I still need my jacket Yep and
00:07:40
Speaker
rather it be sunny and cold than not sunny and cold. so yeah
00:07:49
Speaker
I'm just excited to be... I'm okay with it ramy raining if it's warm outside. i'm kind of excited for... Just get me warm. and And obviously sun too.
00:08:03
Speaker
What are you raising and pouring one out?
Musical Insights: 'The Long Surrender' by Need to Breathe
00:08:06
Speaker
Well, I am raising a glass to Need to Breathe. um They just came out with a new album called The Long Surrender. h And I listened to the title track and i bought the album and I've been listening to it.
00:08:27
Speaker
um It's not my absolute favorite album, but I haven't really connected to
00:08:35
Speaker
a lot of their albums since Bo left. I do. I love, but I just think it's just a great, I mean, I love bear too, especially if you've seen everybody bear live. He just, he gives everything.
00:08:51
Speaker
livestain no But, uh, I connected with the long surrender. I think it's just a really, um timely album and the tone of it.
00:09:05
Speaker
Um, And there's some really beautifully written songs on it too. um I'm probably enjoying the second track, Say It Now, and Highlands, and The Door.
00:09:25
Speaker
There's a lot that I like, but those ones that come to mind immediately. But I definitely recommend it. And it's just good to reconnect with the band.
00:09:35
Speaker
after I hadn't really been feeling
Exploring Themes in 'That Hideous Strength'
00:09:38
Speaker
them as much. You know, they'd come out with a new album and there'd be ah new album and there'd be a couple songs that I'd be like, yeah, I like this, but I'm not like, so into it like I used to be. and This is not a poppy album.
00:09:50
Speaker
No, it's not. It feels very need-to-breathy. like Yeah, it is but it's like very stripped down compared to the stuff that they've done recently. It's not poppy. it's It's not like trying to be yeah mainstream, almost. It feels more of a singer-songwriter, country, folk, twang, lyrics matter. Yeah.
00:10:14
Speaker
you know Yeah. And like nice, I think harmonies, a lot of nice harmonies. Nice harmonies, nice instrumentation. Beautiful melodies too.
00:10:27
Speaker
But I'm pouring one out for a
00:10:32
Speaker
Wings of Fire. Have you have you heard of this? is This new young young young adult series. Which one is that? by Tooie Sutherland.
00:10:44
Speaker
it's it's like It's like a drag and soap opera um mixed with like... I don't know. But I just read the graphic novel with my son. He he was listening to like the first couple ones and he he was enjoying it a lot. and So we got the graphic novel from the library.
00:11:06
Speaker
and it's bad. bad That's not why I don't like it. It's just the dragons, there's like no good characters.
00:11:18
Speaker
Not good in the sense that like they're interesting. It's good in the sense that they are like morally and ethically admirable. um The closest that you get to goodness is like silly and naive characters. Interesting.
00:11:38
Speaker
So, you know, it's entertaining enough, but I think the problem that I have is that there's just a lot of moral depravity. and Who are you trying to, who you want your kids to be like, right? this is Yeah. And, you know, it's like, you know, we're not that restrictive with our kids, but in terms of what we show, mean, like we show them age appropriate things, but we're also not like scared about everything. Um,
00:12:07
Speaker
So, you know, we talk about what goes on and, you know, there's like patricide and matricide and friendicide. And like, there's like a lot of killing and violence. And it's interesting because I read a lot of the Warriors books growing up.
00:12:23
Speaker
A few of those. love those books. And it's funny because Tui Sutherland, who is writing their Wings of Fire, actually worked on some of the spinoff series. Hmm. that Aaron Hunter did that weren't warriors, but were like bears and stuff instead of cats. Um, say thirty which Oh, there's so many, but, uh, it's just, you know, St. Augustine, um, didn't like a lot of, a lot of Greek plays that were going on because they,
00:13:00
Speaker
he said that they, you know, they displayed the heinous acts of the gods, like Zeus, and um especially Zeus that does awful things. But um he displays these acts, and even if in the play, you know,
00:13:20
Speaker
the playwright it's ah it's disapproving. You're still showing these awful things happening so that when people watch it, they can be like, Oh, Zeus did it. So, you know, what I'm doing isn't, isn't that bad.
00:13:34
Speaker
And, or like, you know, can kind of have that effect. And that definitely happens. Um, so I, you know, I don't believe in banning things or anything like that, but, uh,
00:13:48
Speaker
I do believe in discretion and praising what is good and an excellent morally and ethically.
Tower of Babel and 'The Abolition of Man' References
00:14:00
Speaker
So that hideous strength is the third book, the conclusion of the space trilogy. ah C.S. Lewis called it a modern fairy tale for adults.
00:14:17
Speaker
In the beginning. And. I think. It's important to understand. He also opens. With a quote from A
00:14:33
Speaker
poem.
00:14:38
Speaker
A poem by Sir David Lindsay. And he says. The shadow of that hideous strength. Six mile and more. it is of length. And it is describing the Tower of Babel.
00:14:51
Speaker
oh but Mine did not open with that. Mine does not have ah anywhere on that. He doesn't have the introduction in here? He has a preface.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yes, the the quote is right before the preface. No, it's not. Oh. This is what's before mine. To J. McCall. I think. McNeil. yeah That is it.
00:15:19
Speaker
There is no quote. That's interesting.
00:15:27
Speaker
I'm sorry. Can you read that quote again? i feel like that gives a lot more clarity to this story. The shadow of that hideous strength, six mile and more, it is of length.
00:15:40
Speaker
And he also mentions his essay, well, two kind of two essays, The abolition of man in the introduction. And so that hideous strength, you know, a modern fairy tale for adults, he's sort of doing what Dostoevsky did in Notes from Underground, this idea of taking things to the extreme to see where they go. And in that hideous strength, he takes the ideas that, you know, are birthed from the Tower of Babel
00:16:16
Speaker
Tower of Babel is a ah story in Genesis pretty short you can you can read it in couple minutes we're not a YouTube show and basically there are people who learn how to make bricks and fire bricks and they all speak the same language the people of the earth and they decide that they're going to make a name for themselves and build a tower to the heavens And God looks down. He says, look at these people. There's nothing they won't be able to do.
00:16:53
Speaker
um And so he goes down and he scatters all the people and ah makes them speak different languages. um And they're not able to build the tower because they can't talk to each other.
Characters and Ethical Themes in 'That Hideous Strength'
00:17:08
Speaker
And in the abolition of man
00:17:14
Speaker
C.S. Lewis talks about there're a lot of things. um But the thing that I picked out and that I want to pick out going through the head it that hideous strength is C.S. Lewis talks a lot about what he calls the Tao.
00:17:33
Speaker
And what he means by the Tao, he's taking it from the Tao Te Ching, is this idea of of truth or if you want to call it like universal precepts of truth, some logos, this idea of the way that is you know includes ethics in nature and is a way of living in harmony with those ethics of good if goodness.
00:18:03
Speaker
And he talks about how
00:18:08
Speaker
this the... spirit of progress the that he identified in his day, which he identifies with Sir Francis Bacon, um who who wrote a lot about science and progress and technology and all this kind of stuff.
00:18:25
Speaker
he C.S. Lewis says, well, the spirit of progress, this ah idea of doing away with tradition and living your life outside the Tao and trying to find these you know, it's like, Oh, that's just an emotional response that you're having.
00:18:43
Speaker
Um, when do you try to call, you see a waterfall and you call it beautiful. And, um, someone says, well, that's just a, that's just a remote emotional response. Like there's nothing about the waterfall. That's intrinsically beautiful. Uh, it's just your, your emotions or whatever. And so C.S. Lewis develops this idea through the abolition of Um,
00:19:08
Speaker
um And eventually he says that when you
00:19:17
Speaker
you eventually, when you try to see through everything, when you try to see through your emotional responses, through traditions and religions and things, you know, the whole point of seeing through something is to see something else, you know?
00:19:35
Speaker
Um, but that what you end up doing is you actually, by trying to get the see through nature, you end up becoming a slave to nature because there's really nothing left.
00:19:47
Speaker
Once you have stepped outside of the Tao and sort of, um, relinquished your, it's hold on you, all you have left are your natural impulses.
00:20:01
Speaker
Um, And so you can see the way that he sets up in that hideous strength. We start out with guy named Mark. He's kind of a milquetoast, but he he's he works at a college. He's a professor.
00:20:17
Speaker
i think C.S. Leroux wrote about the college because he kind of knew the college. That was this part of his world that he could write about. And this society comes in called and ah the can Can you help me with the acronym again? in Just a moment.
00:20:35
Speaker
National Institute of Coordinated Experiments. The National Institute of Coordinated Experiments. And the goal of NICE is really to make life more efficient, to make man more efficient, to...
00:20:57
Speaker
use, uh, genetics and, um
00:21:04
Speaker
all these kinds of technologies to condition man, to, to sort of turn him into shape him. Um, and nice comes in and the college lets them come in and Mark,
00:21:20
Speaker
Kind of gets swept up in this. it Nice comes in. it's It's sort of, he first sees it as like this guy named Lord Feverstone who's kind of like in Nice and Mark. Mark just really wants to be in the inner ring. Yeah.
00:21:36
Speaker
which is an essay that we'll we also talk about, but the inner ring being like part of in crowd yes the in crowd, the cool kids. He's been trying to do it his whole life pretty much.
00:21:48
Speaker
And so he perceives nice as the ultimate inner ring. So he gets in with fever stone and they end up taking over the college. They start building all these things on the college and they're going to do these experiments and stuff um to make life better.
Merlin's Role and NICE's Ambitions
00:22:06
Speaker
for the people of the this nice English college town. Make them cleaner, more sanitary, more logical. And and so Mark gets swept up in in Nice, and he meets kind of the inner, inner ring.
00:22:27
Speaker
ah and And while that's happening, you also have Jane, who is Mark's wife. And Jane is having, ah she's having dreams that are really unsettling to her.
00:22:42
Speaker
And it turns out that she is having like prophetic dreams about nice. And she, through her housekeeper, she ends up meeting, um actually meeting with Ransom, who's the main character of Para Launder, which is the previous novel.
00:22:59
Speaker
And Ransom has really been kind of like transfigured by basically seeing the face of God. um You know, he's kind of like Moses um or or yes John the Baptist or so but did you know someone who who walks with God.
00:23:15
Speaker
um And he has set up. He hasn't really set it up. He's just kind of let it. A collection of people and and animals have gathered around him.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, it's St. Anne's. And it's sort of this like... um
00:23:35
Speaker
I don't know. It's kind of like a a retelling of... Yeah, it's like a retelling of like... Sort of like a Garden of Eden. Kind of.
00:23:46
Speaker
um Except it's it's not because it's like redeemed in this redeemed society because you have animals acting friendly and as they might have done if we can imagine in the Garden of Eden. So this is why it's like a fairy tale for adults because it sounds very far-fetched and fairy tale is like, you know, but at the same time I don't know if if this was your experience here. I felt like at points I was reading like a horror novel. Okay. This like C.S. Lewis doing horror, especially with some of the ways that he describes nice and and the people at nice and the the yeah yes men who kind of... And and so what you see...
00:24:39
Speaker
in in the leaders of nice is that they have been reduced to their natural impulses. As C.S. Lewis says in The Abolition of Man, they're men without chests.
00:24:51
Speaker
They don't have any kind of filter or ethical framework or any kind of Tao to direct their course. They're just kind of like that doing what they're want to do. And I think this is most typified by, um, kind of the main guy, um, with her, with her. Yes. With her.
00:25:20
Speaker
He's like a collection of brain reactions. Like when you're talking to him and you could never get a straight answer out of the market. or Great quote that I'll find for a little bit later.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I know there's, there's several great quotes. Um,
00:25:38
Speaker
Yeah, and and you know, within the within all this, there's quotes about technological progress and sexual emancipation and ah just everything that C.S. Lewis has been thinking about in The Abolition of Man.
00:25:56
Speaker
um
00:25:59
Speaker
And as it goes on, it turns out Nice is trying to resurrect the or uncover the body of Merlin, which is supposed to be underneath the college, which is why they needed to get into the college.
Merlin's Allegiance and NICE's Downfall
00:26:16
Speaker
Braxton would.
00:26:19
Speaker
Yes. And because they think that Merlin represents a way to, another way to conquer nature. So they think that Merlin will be on their side because they want to conquer nature.
00:26:34
Speaker
They want to develop man into a more, more perfect being. um Which is also... Sorry. To remember is what connects part of what connects this book, the Piranesi.
00:26:49
Speaker
Yes, yes. Conquering nature, yeah. um And this is also an idea that C.S. Lewis talks about in The Abolition of Man, where he says that science and magic are kind of like twins. They come from the same impulse, which is the impulse to...
00:27:08
Speaker
control nature to, um, enact something in nature. And of course there's lots of caveats, which he himself talks about, um, you know, being, there are scientists who love knowledge for the sake of knowledge.
00:27:24
Speaker
And, um there were probably also alchemists and people who, who, who loved it for the, were trying to in their own way to find truth.
00:27:35
Speaker
Um, and,
00:27:39
Speaker
so So I don't think by no means is see as the way as anti-science, but I think he is anti the way that people use science irresponsibly as an end in itself to sort of like conquer nature and give themselves more power in the name of progress or mankind. But what does what does that actually mean? What does progress actually mean? Yeah.
00:28:09
Speaker
And so we keep going. While Mark is doing that, what is Jane up to? Yes. Jane is with the people at St. Ann's with... She meets Ransom, who all the people call Master.
00:28:25
Speaker
And... um
00:28:29
Speaker
Jane is having prophetic visions about what, what is happening at nice about the head, about Merlin. Um, and so she's almost like a spy for them because she's having these visions. You can see what is happening.
00:28:46
Speaker
Um, and so she ends up nice sort of comes after her, but she ends up going to St. Anne's and joining them. Um,
00:29:00
Speaker
And she helps find Merlin um because basically what the people of St. Anne's think is that, well, if the if they can get to Merlin first, then, um you know, maybe they can prevent Nice from taking over the whole world basically because there's – Nice is also America. the general thought is that whoever interacts with Merlin first, that Merlin will be naturally on that that team's side.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, although I do they do think initially they go, they think that they're going to have to, like, but exercise Merlin or something like that. Yeah, they they they think that nice is going to control them but there is also this thought that, like, think there's still, like, a oh, if we get there first, maybe. They just don't know. it's Nobody knows what's going to happen, but if they just want to get there first to be able to, you know, do something. And so what happens is ah Merlin turns out to be kind of on the good side.
00:29:57
Speaker
Um, and nice captures who they think is Merlin, but Merlin like found a tramp in the woods and switch clothes with him. And so nice actually has a tramp, which is kind of funny. Um, and, uh, Merlin is with the people at St. Anne's.
00:30:16
Speaker
There's a lot of stuff that happens. It's a wonderful conversations with Merlin and, ah C.S. Lewis, I think is like the perfect person to imagine what it would be like to interact with Merlin.
00:30:31
Speaker
Um, many years later, Merlin in in a more or less present day, you know, more modern time. Um, cause it's so cool. It's just, if it is, and there's all the language, but he's on the side of good.
00:30:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And they speak in Latin. It's just, it's so cool. Um, But, uh, what happens is Merlin basically goes to nice and recreates the tower of Babel.
00:31:01
Speaker
The way that he takes down the enemy is he just confuses their speech. Uh, uh, all the animals go go nuts and, and all hell breaks loose kind of literally, but, um, uh, and they end up winning and, and Mark sort of gets converted and and There's lots of other crazy stuff that happens, but that's a sort of
00:31:30
Speaker
summary.
Personal Impact of the Novel
00:31:32
Speaker
I would add to it that the leaders of NICE think that they have figured out a scientific discovery
00:31:46
Speaker
that is allowing them to
00:31:53
Speaker
take the next step in this like humanities life cycle, stage of humanity, to only have to worry, to no longer have to worry about human bodies.
00:32:04
Speaker
yeah And the head of Nice is a quite literal head of a beheaded Frenchman who did some truly heinous things.
00:32:21
Speaker
And if I'm remembering correctly, I can't find the page for it. um There is a a learning that, in fact, it wasn't science keeping this thing alive.
00:32:39
Speaker
It was... Right, yeah. The... the ldeal of The fallen Eldiel, the angels of the earth.
00:32:52
Speaker
Which is very shocking discovery shortly before the death of the yeah
00:33:06
Speaker
the guy from Nice who's keeping his head alive. Yep. Hunter, that was really, I learned a lot as you shared that. Thank you very much. My my summary was gonna be very, very short.
00:33:21
Speaker
I would like to still give it because I think it's it provides a much more surface level reading of this book. ah But I think it also will help kind of drive my some of my statement, right? our so Our podcast is about the stories and storytellers that shape us.
00:33:38
Speaker
And I think it will help you understand a little bit of why of how this book has and has not shaped me. Okay. was that Is that appropriate? Sure.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah.
Struggles with Academic Settings in the Novel
00:33:51
Speaker
My telling is this is a story about a couple, Mark and Jane. Mark is a kind of a run-of-the-mill academic ah at an institute.
00:34:03
Speaker
His goal is to be part of the in crowd. lot of similarities here. They are having difficulties in their marriage. They've been recently married within a year. Jane gave up finishing her PhD in the relationship.
00:34:17
Speaker
um Mark is trying to make a name for himself. um He is very incredible writer. Sociologist. Sociologist, yes, sorry.
00:34:29
Speaker
um And he ends up i' kind of falling into line with this group called Nice. um, and through a lot of like bumbling interactions that like in their headquarters, um, he ends up working for the machine, um, writing, um, articles, trying to change public opinion, um, nationally and internationally about a a French, um, man who's beheaded.
00:35:03
Speaker
so and And in the process is learning more and more that maybe he doesn't actually want to be part of this. simultaneously Simultaneously, Jane, who I think is a much more interesting character. I think everybody thinks Jane's a more interesting character.
00:35:19
Speaker
just yeah is a better character. um She's been having dreams. um And at they feel too vivid for... to... to they feel too vivid to her.
00:35:35
Speaker
And she ends up seeing things that she dreamed in the newspaper the next day. And so she ends up through an acquaintance i'm going to this place called St. Anne's. And when she's there, um she connects with um the the gathering of individuals there and meets Ransom, who is then the primary character of out of the silent planet in Perilandra.
00:36:04
Speaker
um doesn't She doesn't really believe or really want to be part of um what's happening there and tries to go back home. um At this point, Nice has started controlling lots of things and has realized that um Mark is married to Jane um and that Jane is foreteller through her dreams. and She's able to see the future.
00:36:33
Speaker
So Jane's in danger, she ends up back at St. Anne's. In the midst of all this, they're trying to, um that she envisions being Merlin or interacting with Merlin buried under Braxton Wood.
00:36:50
Speaker
And the the group under a ransom, realize the fight that they're entering into is a fight that is focused on this particular location with nice um both the scientific aspect and then this and Merlin this magical aspect
00:37:11
Speaker
things develop on both sides mark is trying to figure out how to get out of it he ends up being framed for murder Jane and Merlin and a bear called Mr. The Altitude. Nope.
00:37:24
Speaker
Yes. Altitude. Mr. Baltitude. Baltitude, yeah. End up going to um Nice to rescue Mark, pretty much, and to end Nice.
00:37:39
Speaker
And Merlin does a lot of crazy stuff, and so does Mr. Baltitude. Mark is able to get out. Nice is destroyed, along with like the Prime Minister and all sorts of individuals who have bought into this this this lie that Nice has propagated.
00:38:00
Speaker
And the the story ends with the reconnection of Mark and Jane in ah what I would say is just a truly beautiful...
00:38:11
Speaker
um fairy tale ending in which you can see they've both grown a lot individually separated separated and long to see their relationship grow in their marriage.
00:38:27
Speaker
It was a little bit longer than I had planned, but that's my telling of the story. All right. Thank you, Eric. There are clearly many layers at work in this story.
00:38:39
Speaker
And Hunter, I really appreciate the pieces you brought. And I would like to discuss them more. Before we get to that, I wanted to share how this has impacted me.
00:38:52
Speaker
I remember reading out of the Silent Planet and Paralandra. I read them relatively quickly after each other. um I was in grad school at the time. It's kind of late to the space trilogy game. I didn't know it was even a thing until I bumped into it at a bookstore, a really well-known news bookstore in Chicago.
00:39:13
Speaker
um And I was like, oh, this is seems cool. I didn't know C.S. Lewis wrote science fiction. And I remember reading out of the silent planet and parallel and I'd be like, these are completely different than any science fiction I've ever read my life.
00:39:27
Speaker
They read more like like narrative theology.
00:39:33
Speaker
And then than they do um
00:39:42
Speaker
explosive science fiction. are They do that beautiful literature with like deep theological conversations through And then i was like, okay, I'm excited. I'm going to check out that hideous drink. I'm going to read it because obviously I love the first two. I love this one.
00:39:55
Speaker
This book is about twice. This book is as long as the other first two combined. And I could not get through this book. This book just ate at me.
00:40:10
Speaker
And it's not because it's not a really well-written and i think enjoyable book.
00:40:19
Speaker
It's because
00:40:23
Speaker
C.S. Lewis chose to write it within an academic environment, which he named that he did because that's the environment that he knew well and felt like he could communicate about well.
00:40:38
Speaker
And every time I picked up this book to try to read it, and I think I read it over the course of like a year plus, or maybe three years, honestly, it was a long time. I could make it like a page before I had to put it down because it was too reminiscent of what was at that point my lived experience in an academic environment.
00:41:01
Speaker
It was too full of... like I didn't want to spend my downtime reading about things that made me think of my...
00:41:14
Speaker
Worst interactions with my university. like You know, academic colleagues. and Because this interaction with nice is just, it's a slog. It's just like, oh, come on. Yes, there are people. This is what this type of environment, I'd say at its worst feels like it feels like endless bickering nobody everybody's talking around each other trying to show they're smart at the cost of other people being lessened and nobody giving clear directions to anybody but an expectation that you get it and that you are you know proving your own self in your own lane
00:42:03
Speaker
And i don't care about any of that. It's endless posturing. It's endless building up arguments so that if somebody attacks them, you can tear them down. Or if they do make a good point that you hadn't thought about, you can easily diflu deflect it by putting out a a ah statement earlier to catch that type of thing. And it's just... and I do it in some of my language still.
00:42:38
Speaker
um There are some really good things from it, I think. um But there are also some challenges from it. And...
00:42:48
Speaker
I just wanted to get to the Martians. know I wanted to get to the...
00:42:55
Speaker
And this book doesn't deliver on that at all. like i wasn't you know Merlin is an interesting character, but i I've been kind of interested in Merlin through my life, but like not hugely interested in Merlin.
00:43:09
Speaker
like I remember trying to watch the show Merlin enough times, I finally was like, I give up on the show. um like Mr. Baltitude the most interesting character. um i mean, not really, but kind of.
00:43:22
Speaker
But what I remember about the story... is a marriage that started in hardship.
00:43:30
Speaker
Two characters that developed separately from each other and the ultimate connection back together. And I think in that way, this, this is not a love story by any means, but I think that is the kind of the, the, the true chosen narrative like movement that C.S. Lewis has used. There's ah definitely and a ah literature word in literature for what I'm trying to communicate or a phrase.
00:44:00
Speaker
i'm like It's is chosen these two deeply tied characters
00:44:10
Speaker
to help draw us through this story.
00:44:15
Speaker
And I really enjoyed following their story. i I definitely wanted much more Ransom in it, and I don't feel like it was anywhere near the type of book that the previous had been.
00:44:34
Speaker
But I do think it... He names it at the beginning. It's a different genre of of book. than the previous two.
00:44:45
Speaker
previous two are science fiction. This is mythos.
00:44:54
Speaker
So six plus years later, we've now talked about this book over the course of two different meetings, and I have still not been able to read every single page of it again.
Appreciation for Novel's Commentary on Ethics and Technology
00:45:08
Speaker
i've read I've read it and taken copious notes and like highlighted things along the way, as you can see. and I've done i listened to a two-hour radio um broadcast of it, which was very fun and really interesting to me.
00:45:24
Speaker
um But there is a so it is stuck in my mind as slog, and it just brings me back into that academic space. And I'm like, I do not want to be there.
00:45:39
Speaker
That's interesting because it's funny to me that you say that you, you didn't want to read it because it was set in a space that you were familiar with because a lot of the talk and publishing marketing books is write what you know.
00:45:56
Speaker
And then people who are familiar with that setting will want to read it. Like, you know, like it, it will relate to that. They'll be able to relate to it.
00:46:06
Speaker
Um,
00:46:09
Speaker
I related to It had the opposite effect on you. So the answer is I wanted to read it and I related to it, but I didn't want to read any more of it or finish it because it was too reminiscent of my experience.
00:46:32
Speaker
no and And yet it's not quite a satire. Like it is, but it is not.
00:46:39
Speaker
it yeah it's um Let me say it this way. It's the natural conclusion of the stream of thinking that drives decision-making in academic environments.
00:46:57
Speaker
like That is what nice is. It's the natural like ending, like most aggressive approach
00:47:09
Speaker
to... so So you're talking about nice, too. You're not just talking about, like, because they have a college meeting. Yes, the college meeting is actually... i really appreciated part of the college meeting. um Specifically, my favorite professors were the types of professors like...
00:47:36
Speaker
Canon Jewel. m If Canon Jewel wishes us not to hear his views, I suggest that his end could be better attained by silence. This is what happens at the end of this meeting. This guy, Canon Jewel, is of a previous... I'll start. i keep going.
00:47:51
Speaker
Jule had been already an old man in the days before the First War, when old men were treated with kindness, and he had never succeeded in getting used to the modern world.
00:48:02
Speaker
For a moment, as he stood with his head thrust forward, people thought he was going to reply. Then, quite suddenly, he spread out his hands with a gesture of helplessness, shrunk back, and began laboriously to resume his chair.
00:48:17
Speaker
The motion was carried. Those are the professors that I liked the most. Now, obviously, I did not have professors that were old during the First World War.
00:48:29
Speaker
um and And I don't necessarily mean old professors, but professors for whom kindness and care for others and mutual respect, even if they didn't agree um like but for other professors and students, like that that's the type of thing that when those were carried forth in the way I was interacted with by professors, that's who I wanted to be with. And that this is this book is very clearly focusing in on a world where that type of professor...
00:49:16
Speaker
is old news, is not allowed to be part of it. And and one of the my favorite one of my favorite parts of this story um kind of hits on that a little bit more. We can talk about that
00:49:31
Speaker
later. Hunter, how has this story shaped you? ah
00:49:38
Speaker
It's a loaded question. I read it very quickly. In contrast to you, I read it in less than a week. Okay. um Just because I was excited to be reading C.S. Lewis again.
00:49:54
Speaker
um It's funny because I read this originally for the Piranesi episode. Yes. And so I went from Piranesi to That Hideous Strength. And...
00:50:05
Speaker
and you know Nothing against Susanna Clark, but she's not C.S. Lewis. And um I just loved... I was just enjoying the ride.
00:50:17
Speaker
um I don't have quite the same history as you do with... or experience with academic circles and that sort
Technological Progress and its Impact on Society
00:50:28
Speaker
of thing.
00:50:28
Speaker
um i mean, we went to the same college, but... um
00:50:36
Speaker
I guess I wasn't as attentive. I don't know. I don't know. Our experience in college was nothing like anything in this book. Yeah, exactly. It was a college that i really focused on the the students.
00:50:51
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And it focused on collaboration or at least cooperation and celebration or competition. Yeah.
00:51:03
Speaker
Yeah. I, as, as a lover of languages, um not, not an expert in languages, but a lover of languages. I really enjoyed a lot of what he did with Merlin and the way that he, he talked in Latin.
00:51:25
Speaker
And, um, you know, there, there are some quotes in here that I loved. Um,
00:51:36
Speaker
And I was also thinking about the Tower of Babel and about technology and the way that we used it. um Interestingly enough, I actually read this on a Kindle because i couldn't get a book, a physical book, fast enough.
00:51:52
Speaker
so And the and that you know if I have to read digitally, i I like the traditional Kindle because it doesn't hurt my eyes um and it's less distracting.
00:52:06
Speaker
But I noticed that because I could just underline a sentence on the Kindle and I couldn't i couldn't write it down.
00:52:16
Speaker
Like i didn't I didn't have to write it down in my notebook. Yeah. I remembered less. Yes. Because I would just highlight it and think Even when I like typed a little note in the Kindle, I just i remembered less.
00:52:32
Speaker
And I think that is relevant because you know this is a book that is about technology in the way that it shapes us and i could not help thinking about the conversations that we're having about technology now um and the sort of spirit of really the tower of babel that i think is prevalent in you know these ceos who are developing ai technology um and trying to thrust it upon us as like
00:53:04
Speaker
the next stage in human evolution and creativity that'll unlock human flourishing or something. And it's like, ah, what, what are you talking about?
00:53:17
Speaker
It's just going to make more money for the people who can leverage it. Anyway, I think there are caveats to that conversation, which, which I want to talk about eventually, but I'm finding this quote also the, uh, the confusion moment when Merlin,
00:53:35
Speaker
Confuses everyone is really funny. not The audio recording of that was amazing. Oh, i I can believe it. Tidies and Fugelman, I shield for that we all are most steeply rebut the defensible, though I trust lavatory.
00:53:54
Speaker
Aspasia, which gleams to have selected our redeemed inspector this deceiving. I would ah be shark, very shark, from anyone's debenture.
00:54:05
Speaker
The woman who had laughed rose hastily from her chair. The man seated next to her heard her murmur in his ear, Vood-Wooloo. He took in the mean things meaningless syllables and her unnatural expression at one moment. Both, for some reason, infuriated him.
00:54:22
Speaker
He rose to help her to move back her chair with one of those gestures of savage politeness which often in modern society serve instead of blows. He wrenched the chair, in fact, out of her hand. She screamed, tripped on a ruck in the carpet and fell. The man on the other side of her saw her fall and saw the first man's expression of are you, blamit!' he towards movement. five part the room were now They were shouting. "'But blamit!' he roared, leaning towards him with threatening movement. Four five people in that part of the room were now up. They were shouting.
00:54:48
Speaker
At the same time, there was movement elsewhere. Several of the younger men were making for the door. Bundlemen! Bundlemen! said Wither sternly in a much louder voice. He had often before, merely by raising his voice and speaking one authoritative word, reduced troubles of meetings to order.
00:55:05
Speaker
But this time, he was not even heard.
00:55:10
Speaker
ah it's It really reminds me of James Joyce or Waiting for Godot. um This like gibberish that's not gibberish and it is also sounds like it could mean something.
00:55:25
Speaker
Have I read on this podcast? um the um
00:55:38
Speaker
Jabberwocky.
00:55:41
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:55:44
Speaker
Let me grab this real quick. As long as we're going to make this a long episode, I might as well just add to it. Is that poem I first read? In the poetry and literature literature course, introduction to literature course at a college uniquely situated on top of a hill.
00:56:08
Speaker
The story is called Jabberwocky. It's by a somewhat unknown guy named Lewis Carroll. Might have heard of him.
00:56:19
Speaker
ah
00:56:22
Speaker
He lived from 1832 to 1898. Anyways. um
00:56:30
Speaker
Well, I guess I need to read the introduction to this. in There was a book lying near Alice on the table, and while she sat watching the White King, for she was still a little anxious about him and had the ink all ready to throw over him in case he fainted again, she turned over to leaves over the leaves to find some part of that she could read. "'For it's all in some language I don't know,' she said to herself. "'It was like this.'" Bunch of words backwards.
00:56:56
Speaker
She puzzled over this for some time, but at last a bright thought struck her. "'Why, it's a looking-glass book, of course.'"
00:57:05
Speaker
And if I hold up it up to a glass, the words will all go the right way again. This was the poem that Alice read.
00:57:15
Speaker
Jabberwocky. Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe. All mimsy were the borgoves and the moam wrath's outgrabe.
00:57:28
Speaker
Beware the jabberwock, my son, the jaws that bite, the claws that catch. Beware the jub-jub bird and shun the frumious bandersnatch. He took his vorpal sword in hand, long time the manxum foe he sought, so rested he by the tum-tum tree.
00:57:48
Speaker
and stood awhile in thought and as in uffish thought he stood the jabberwock with eyes of flame came whistling through togy wood and burbled as it came one two one two and through and through the vorpal blade went snickersnack he left it dead and with its head he went galumphing back and hast thou slain the jabberwock come to arms my beamish boy frabjus day callow callay he chortled in his joy twas brillig and the slithy tobes did gyre and gimble in the wabe all mimsy were the boragoves and the mom wrath's outgrave
00:58:38
Speaker
assistance
00:58:45
Speaker
I absolutely love that poem. It is a poem that has stuck with me for 14 years at this point. Yeah, 13 13 years.
00:59:02
Speaker
And it
00:59:04
Speaker
and
00:59:08
Speaker
whenever I see something or hear something that is clearly a a mocking of of English, of communication,
00:59:18
Speaker
this is what comes to my mind. And I guarantee that C.S. Lewis had read this. I'm sure he did, yeah. This is, i mean, he he talks about Alice in the Looking Glass, right? In the back, at the end of in the inner ring?
00:59:34
Speaker
Yes, I think so. that's That's how the inner ring ends, the last sentence. Yeah. um It is like the house in Alice Through the Looking Glass.
00:59:47
Speaker
Yeah. But it's it's a
00:59:53
Speaker
it's amazing how words can almost sound right. You just have to strain. If you strain a little bit harder, then you'll understand them. Mm-hmm.
01:00:08
Speaker
Hunter, that is wildly askew from our conversation. Well, not exactly. i found the quote that I loved. um And it's when both Merlin and Merlin Ransom are together in the room. And I think it's one of the L deal is descending yes the presence of
01:00:38
Speaker
I think it's the sort kind of like the presence of
Lewis' Writing Style and Narrative Techniques
01:00:44
Speaker
of God is descending on the house at St. Anne's in preparation for kind of the final struggle with Nice.
01:00:57
Speaker
Chapter 13, part four? Okay. who See, this is the problem because I read it on a Kindle, so it's 82% into the book.
01:01:10
Speaker
Okay,
01:01:14
Speaker
go for it. Quick agitation seized them, a kind of boiling and bubbling in mind and heart which shook their bodies also. It went to a rhythm of such fierce speed that they fear their sanity must be shaken into a thousand fragments, and then it seemed that this had actually happened.
01:01:32
Speaker
but it did not matter, for all the fragments, needle-pointed desires, brisk merriments, link-side thoughts, went rolling to and fro like glittering drops and reunited themselves. It was well that both men had some knowledge of poetry.
01:01:48
Speaker
The doubling, splitting, and recombining of thoughts which now went on in them would have been unendurable for one whom that art had not already instructed in the counterpoint of the mind. The Mastery of Doubled and Trebled Vision for ransom whose study had been for many years in the realm of words it was heavenly pleasure he found himself sitting within the very heart of language in the whiteho furnace of essential speech
01:02:20
Speaker
And it was phrase, uh, Lord of Meaning, that got me, because, the herald the messenger the slayer of argus was with them the angel that spins nearest the sun very trilvia whom men call mercury and th and it was the phrase ah board of meaning that got to me because um
01:02:48
Speaker
I've dabbled in poetry, written a couple of sonnets. i know a little Latin and some Chinese, ah ah tiny bit of Spanish.
01:03:00
Speaker
But, you know, I think anyone who appreciates language has tried to use it and study it and not not just study it, not just to use it, but for the love of it, for the beauty of it.
01:03:20
Speaker
you begin to realize that
01:03:24
Speaker
language is is a tool. You know, it's a it's like, you know, artists use paints. And I think the the medium of of visual art, it's like so obvious that you are using physical things that are not the thing that you're trying to represent.
01:03:47
Speaker
but you're using physical things to try and represent it. Um, not just as like a realistic depiction, but, you know, maybe trying to capture the the spirit of something or, or something like that. Um, and language is the same way. is like, you realize the word,
01:04:09
Speaker
is just a tool that is trying to describe something, you know, and, and if you study multiple languages, you realize, you know, that you can't just do one-to-one translations because languages are made by people. And we look at the world and we try to say something and try and make it come together, you know, and, um,
01:04:34
Speaker
And it comes back to this idea of the Tao, the way, the truth, the logos, the original word. um And just imagining meeting the Lord of meaning himself who made matter, who made us, who made meaning itself and being able to finally finally see clearly that
01:05:05
Speaker
see clearly what I've something I've been trying to describe my whole life. you know, Paul talks about seeing in a dim mirror while we're here, you know? um
01:05:23
Speaker
I thought it was just a beautiful, ah beautiful moment. Yeah, I agree. Oh man, this is amazing.
01:05:33
Speaker
Hunter, there are as normal, so many additional parts so this conversation we have. Um, we have been talking for quite a while already. Um, I do feel like we've only kind of like
01:05:52
Speaker
just begun to kind of delve into parts of this book. Um, and we, we have talked about it already with Piranesi. Um,
01:06:04
Speaker
Our goal in this podcast is to never to mind all the depths of a thing. If that were ah coat the goal, we probably should choose much less interesting ah stories. um I would give a pushback. You said something earlier that I do disagree with.
01:06:28
Speaker
um I agree with the sentiment that, yes, Susanna Clark and C.S. Lewis are different. I love Piranesi as a story and that world yeah I think is
01:06:44
Speaker
superior to many ah it's superior to this world that C.S. Lewis has created in this particular space. I'm going to say it's superior to Carolandra or um yeah or faandra um um And obviously, C.S. Lewis is just talking about a kind of a typical place with some mythological elements.
01:07:11
Speaker
But I do not want to allow...
01:07:19
Speaker
The demeaning. um You were not that aggressive. I'm sorry, that's not the right word. um I really think the the the labyrinth is so beautiful in Piranesi.
01:07:31
Speaker
um At least in my reading of it. And that is not everybody's reading of it. um i think you know I think a lot of people like the house. I think that's fair. i like the house. I said that in our... yes I was was talking more about the style okay of the writing. Yes.
01:07:50
Speaker
yes and is what i meant that's That's true. this is I think you've shared before the the change in language over the years in terms of how many words on average people know and use. yeah it's you know it's It's interesting.
01:08:10
Speaker
Style is is like taste. It's something that
01:08:18
Speaker
you you You can say things about it that are true, but it is also subjective enough that there's always going to be someone who disagrees and hates what you love and and loves what you hate.
01:08:32
Speaker
um And everything in between the spectrum of love and hate. yeah um
01:08:39
Speaker
I guess I...
01:08:44
Speaker
I have... i This is... a personal thing. I have noticed a certain style that
01:08:58
Speaker
a lot of the, the more modern books that I've read, ah I think one of the main values is clarity in the sense that the modern reader Maybe editors feel this way or authors. It's just the spirit of the times, I think, is... is The modern reader does not want to be confused.
01:09:23
Speaker
Nope.
01:09:26
Speaker
By the words. Because there are things in stories that are written now that are confusing. Confusing ideas, complicated concepts. But the words themselves are very...
01:09:41
Speaker
polished, very edited, very slick. You should not have to read anything more than once. Exactly. That's what it is. um And there's value in that, depending on what you're communicating.
01:09:55
Speaker
But personally, when I'm reading fiction, yeah i I like things that have some meat that that I have to think about. that We also don't want to watch anything more than once any now anymore, any days, nowadays. And like that...
01:10:11
Speaker
there is a, think there's lot vast depth built into movies. Yeah. And, you know, our attention spans are just getting shorter and shorter. And I think that ties into that hideous strength because the people who are in the inner ring of nice, ah you know, especially wither, they, you try to ask them,
01:10:40
Speaker
it's You can't get a straight answer. yeah That's what I was trying to find that ah for a while. So I think that's a really good example of of what makes nice of of the type of interactions Mark has.
01:10:57
Speaker
Yeah. Hunter. We have not talked about Mrs. Hardcastle. m hardcastle We have not talked about like the the fairies or the the police or the murder of the one professor for whom he's like, yeah, no way am I going to part of this corrupt nonsense. um The physics professor whose the murder is then in on Mark. um We have not really discussed at length
01:11:27
Speaker
um the beheading or the the um animation of the animals. We've not truly discussed most of this book.
Philosophical and Ethical Implications in Lewis' Work
01:11:40
Speaker
um we've But we've what we have discussed really well, and I think you've brought us into a really good space of understanding, is what the the book is trying to accomplish.
01:11:51
Speaker
um In many ways, the goals. and And let me add something to that conversation. And then I would love to go to the inner ring. All right.
01:12:04
Speaker
This book, this comes at the very end of chapter nine in the book, probably about almost exactly halfway through, slightly more than halfway through.
01:12:18
Speaker
and C.S. Lewis is writing about nice and the movement of nice to combine science and magic to the real destruction of humanity.
01:12:37
Speaker
The very experiences of the dissecting room and the pathological laboratory were breeding a conviction that the stifling of all deep-set repugnances was the first essential of for progress.
01:12:50
Speaker
And now, all this had reached the stage at which its dark contrivers thought they could safely begin to bend it back so that it would meet that other and earlier kind of power.
01:13:04
Speaker
Indeed, they were choosing the first moment at which this could have been done. You could not have done it with the 19th century scientists. Their firm objective materialism would have excluded it from their minds.
01:13:18
Speaker
And even if they could have been made to believe, their inherited morality would have kept them from touching dirt. McPhee was a survivor from that tradition.
01:13:30
Speaker
It was different now. Perhaps few or none of the people at Bellbury knew what was happening. But once it happened, they would be like straw in fire.
01:13:42
Speaker
What should they find incredible, since they believed no longer in a rational universe? What should they regard as too obscene, since they held that all morality was a mere suggestive subjective byproduct of the physical and economic situations of men?
01:14:00
Speaker
The time was ripe. From the point of view which is accepted in hell, the whole history of our earth has led up to this moment.
01:14:12
Speaker
There was now at last a real chance for fallen man to shake off that limitation of his powers, which mercy had imposed upon him as a protection from the full results of his fall.
01:14:28
Speaker
If this succeeded, hell would be at last incarnate. Bad men, while still in the body, still crawling on this little globe, would enter that state which, heretofore, they had entered only after death, would have diuternity and power of evil spirits.
01:14:53
Speaker
Nature, all over the globe of Telus, would become their slave, and of that dominion no end. before the end of time itself, could be certainly foreseen.
01:15:14
Speaker
My lens, my primary lens in which I view the world is through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
01:15:27
Speaker
And I've been reading a lot about justice, um and with that human dignity, with that human worth, and with that conversations are around morality ah and
01:15:53
Speaker
different viewpoints or approaches to humanity or to ah philosophical, theological questions, that either lead towards humans are just the most recent and and repugnant view that has shown up on this earth of no more value than sand to the life of a single human is of greater value than the creation of all other items combined.
01:16:35
Speaker
And as much as speak in frustration about the academic setting, it probably should be a ah
01:16:49
Speaker
telling to me that this passage is highly academic in thought.
01:17:02
Speaker
Is what
01:17:06
Speaker
i I keep coming to and thinking about it.
01:17:13
Speaker
And I think it sets the... You brought up the idea of horror earlier. like This sets the tone for which that is possible. this this This passage clearly communicates the stakes that this book is trying to address.
01:17:39
Speaker
And yes, it's myth. And and yes, some of this stuff is truly ridiculous. um And yet I find this terrifying and all too possible in a modern life, in um and a modern, a quote unquote, modern society or postmodern society Post-post-modern.
01:18:04
Speaker
Post-post-modern.
01:18:07
Speaker
Free-triple-post-modern.
01:18:14
Speaker
it's and we We talked earlier about NICE. that This is probably where that came from. or saying this they They are the logical conclusion of a whole brand of thinking um within the academic space. and I think this is what that's showing. me that this This idea that um Indeed, they were choosing the first time in history, my words, at which this could have been done.
01:18:41
Speaker
it it goes back to that that fun little quote I was sharing from Cannon Jewel. You know, this professor, this older, kinder professor, you know, from a days before when when when old men were treated with kindness and he had never succeeded in getting used to the modern world. Yeah.
01:19:02
Speaker
And you know people around him are just yelling at him, shouting at him to sit down. And now you're... And and and the this is then connecting with the the need for Merlin in the story, where if you add pre-modern
01:19:22
Speaker
magic power over creation to a modern...
01:19:32
Speaker
Scientific... ah science is Science is not... What's it? Anathema to God. Yeah. that They're not two sides of a coin.
01:19:44
Speaker
And that was a core flaw in... in Christian history. um It's a core flaw within...
01:19:56
Speaker
so many different popes and even within American Christianity, this God of the gaps, this idea that things we can't explain are thus God. um And then, well, if you can explain it, then it can't be God.
01:20:07
Speaker
um this idea God's going to get keep getting smaller and smaller as we explain more and more parts of the universe and more parts of of how things work. And it's just like, a that's not true.
01:20:18
Speaker
In fact, I would see as more like we're mining the depths and learning more and more about how God created things. and How cool is that? Is it that even the smallest structure of things has echoes in the largest structures of things and like the the intentionality and purpose behind these things and and the the things that we have yet to learn? um That is a ah beloved side trail for me.
01:20:48
Speaker
go down um I could have read another
01:20:57
Speaker
twenty thirty sentences and I would have given you that's more more understanding and and yeah where how does truth you know relate to these conversations of power um of of scientific discovery of rationality oh
01:21:21
Speaker
morality and how easy is it for the subjugation of all things to rationality to lead to ultimate depravity
01:21:42
Speaker
I think the interesting thing is that
01:21:49
Speaker
it's Thank you for sharing that, Eric. That was lovely.
01:21:56
Speaker
But I think I wouldn't say it's rationality. I would say it's because yeah because at the end of the day, nice is going even outside rationality. Yeah, that's true.
01:22:07
Speaker
And when I think there, you know, because some people, rationality is their Tao, you know, um and it did you know philosophy and uh Kant's transcendental unity of the apperception ah
01:22:33
Speaker
you've completely lost me I've lost myself I've tried tried to read some of Kant Emanuel Kant it's just oh that's the hardest reading I've ever done but um I think about to returning to the spirit of progress yuta that C.S. Lewis saw in his day and that we we're seeing now.
01:22:57
Speaker
um
01:23:01
Speaker
i was the I think the
01:23:06
Speaker
ridiculous thing is that the way that CEOs like ah AI talk about their products um they're like saying that decelerating the,
01:23:25
Speaker
um and I'll put some articles. I just, I just read them this this morning. um You know, decelerating the progress of ai is costing human lives because of all the problems that AI is going to solve.
01:23:39
Speaker
Cancer and world hunger and things like that. And, Yeah, and it's this sort of mindless like obsession with progress when the real true irony of it is that what's costing human lives is you know environmental issues, greed, unnecessary wars and conflicts. like the but you know Technopoly, I think,
01:24:11
Speaker
is, is, it was written in 1994. And he talks about how, you know, which was kind of like the information age, you know, it's about information and the dissemination of information that was enabled by the internet.
01:24:26
Speaker
And he asks, he's just like, can these problems really be solved by more information? Is that what is holding us back? Because is is, is, is, Is not having a supercomputer what is holding us back from solving world hunger and income gaps and poverty and the economy? No, it's greed.
01:24:54
Speaker
It's greed. It's the consolidation of power. It's aggressive marketing with just with with no caps on it or any kind of, ah you know, Tao to say, hey, that's this, you're taking this too far.
Love, Morality, and Societal Critique
01:25:11
Speaker
You know, we just, so we're so good at turning our means into ends and making ends of our means. um It's just,
01:25:27
Speaker
And you know, what you you talked about science and faith and and I also agree with you that's a false dichotomy. And I think there are a lot of scientists out there who would agree.
01:25:39
Speaker
ten And
01:25:46
Speaker
because you you just have to ask like to what end? You know, what do we do Why? why Why are we doing this? why Why are you making these things?
01:26:02
Speaker
And it's not that I don't think that AI doesn't have some uses, you know? But I feel that the overwhelming way that it's going to be executed is in like marketing and things where really, really quantity rules. and And if you look at all the other, you know, productivity technologies,
01:26:25
Speaker
like It hasn't made us have to work less. it We work more. And they pay us less to do more things.
01:26:36
Speaker
It's just... Anyway, it's kind of this is kind of a rant. I'm sorry. um But this is what this book is about. It's like... it's like you know, he's carrying these ideas to the extreme, this idea of progress. And it's like, okay, yes.
01:26:52
Speaker
Science, learning, knowledge, it's all good. And I'd like to point out there's an actual scientist in this book and he gets murdered by a nice. Yeah. And it's just, it's important.
01:27:07
Speaker
Like when you are within the doubt, you have balance. Like when you, in the, as he talks about the abolition of man, it's, It's almost impossible to explain to someone who is outside of it, you know where where you're within the doubt, where you can believe in science and the pursuit of knowledge, but you can also have an ethical balance where you can say this is not the only thing that matters.
01:27:35
Speaker
And you can pursue things um
01:27:43
Speaker
and not be controlled by them. And I'm going to try and connect this, if you're still with me after this rant.
01:27:55
Speaker
Thank you. I'm sorry. ah
01:28:00
Speaker
Something I wanted to talk about that that actually shaped me. One phrase that I remembered um is at the end when Mark is coming back to St. Anne's and he's thinking about Jane and their marriage.
01:28:17
Speaker
he repeats
01:28:22
Speaker
how had he dared to touch Jane, to to approach her as, because he's seeing her in his mind as as beautiful, as, you know, ah a reflection of that they're good and beautiful um love.
01:28:46
Speaker
And what want to think about is the fact that Nice, which has yeah like a quote unquote liberated female, which honestly I feel like Hardcastle is kind of the weakest point for me.
01:29:05
Speaker
i just thought it was kind of ah too extreme. Yeah. um And I think that might be a sticking point for people who read the book.
01:29:21
Speaker
But what I want to point out is that nice, which has abandoned all ethics and morals, is sexless. Nice, you would think the nice would it be, you know, having orgies. and where they They do sort of have these things.
01:29:42
Speaker
that weird thing, terrifying things that happen with old naked men, um, when they're prostrating cells before the head. But
01:29:54
Speaker
overall nice is they, they don't, there's no pleasure in nice. Um, it's not a nice place to be. And then at the end of the book, you have this the,
01:30:08
Speaker
basic para-landra Venus descending on St. Anne's. Um, and it's really a lovely passage. And I think to just, it's a lovely chapter and to describe it, I think would not do it justice. Um, but you have like the, the true love and beauty and, um, you know, the, the true, the, the,
01:30:40
Speaker
the blessing of the God who actually created sex, descending on people. And you have the spirit of that and the spirit of, you know, Solomon's Song of Songs in the Bible and celebration of, of love.
01:30:56
Speaker
um And
01:31:02
Speaker
what I was thinking about is, um is pornography. And, I'm going to cite fightthenewdrug.org. They do a lot of studies and things and articles.
01:31:19
Speaker
And one of their slogans that they have is called, is is porn kills love. And what can happen to someone who's addicted to porn is they will lose interest in actual sex.
01:31:33
Speaker
And they can actually have stra have problems like having making actual love because they're addicted to in artificial love and extreme love.
01:31:46
Speaker
And i was thinking about how porn in a way is kind of total abandonment of authenticity and, um honesty and you know the the way of of the dao and and because you know within the dao and this is shaped by my worldview as as a follower of christ you know um god created sex and it's a good thing and it's a powerful thing in the right context you know when you have two people who love each other and who are committed to each other for their whole life and only each other it's a very powerful thing um
01:32:32
Speaker
And then when you take it and you you turn it into like a form of entertainment on a screen, it totally distorts it. And um
01:32:47
Speaker
I thought it was kind of fascinating that C.S. Lewis, when he was writing this, kind of pegged... I don't know if it was intentional or not.
01:32:57
Speaker
um He probably had some subconscious things, that as we all do, that That, ah you know, it's interesting because C.S. Lewis would have read Freud and Freud had some issues with sex, to say the least.
01:33:13
Speaker
um I'm not a psychologist by any means, but um and if there's one thing I know about Freud, it's that he talked a lot about our subconscious suppressed whatever's. um yeah And so C.S. Lewis might have been kind of like responding in a way or subconsciously, you know, writing is, is such a mysterious thing, but this idea that, um, you have the redemption of sex with the people at St. Anne's versus this sexless society and nice in how we have, that happens in our society with, with pornography and, um,
01:33:57
Speaker
And you would think that, quote unquote, liberating sex would be lead to more. More pleasure, more goodness, whatever. If it feels good, it is good, but it really leads to the opposite.
01:34:11
Speaker
Like. yep um
01:34:16
Speaker
And there's a lot of stories if you go to fight the new drug, or they they have stories about people and personal stories that people share stuff.
Challenges of Adapting to Film
01:34:27
Speaker
I have, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. I've been thinking about, throughout throughout these conversations on these books, these are not books that are made into movies.
01:34:41
Speaker
And they wouldn't be good choices. Because the visual medium of telling it, at least in our current culture, in all three of these books, there are multiple characters that are naked at different points.
01:34:53
Speaker
Yeah. um And at least in the first two, like there's no like sensual aspects of it. um And especially Perilandra. It's not meant to be a... Yeah, a... a
01:35:15
Speaker
sticking point. It's actually, it's in many ways, what C.S. Lewis is trying to do, especially Paralanda, is like redeem the story of the Garden of Eden. Right.
01:35:26
Speaker
And talk about, you use this this story the medium of writing to depict what it could look like in another world after Christ has died in Rose.
01:35:40
Speaker
And and You know, this book maybe is probably the one that most could most be made into a movie. It would probably make the least interesting of movies. It would be terrifying. that my Yeah. i wouldn't I don't think I'd really enjoy it.
01:36:00
Speaker
um But I think a large part of a part of this is the way that Lewis is trying to communicate so many of these scenes. Yeah.
01:36:12
Speaker
to modern American viewer and we don't have we don't I'm not aware of filming techniques you know or filming approaches that are
01:36:32
Speaker
that are able to convey the same message that Lewis is trying to convey in writing
01:36:45
Speaker
I think you'd have to change it a lot.
01:36:52
Speaker
You know.
01:36:55
Speaker
But it would, by that decision, like would feel like a censoring of the story. Yeah. and yeah I feel like the filmmaker would have to pick like one or two themes that they could illuminate in the film and just focus on those themes because there's so much here that...
Concluding Thoughts on 'The Inner Ring' and Human Dynamics
01:37:19
Speaker
Yeah.
01:37:23
Speaker
Can we discuss The Inner Ring as a kind of closing of this book? Yes. Hunter, you had us read The Inner Ring, which is What would you call it? article? Short story?
01:37:38
Speaker
Letter?
01:37:41
Speaker
Periodical. It's an essay. Essay. Thank you. I can't get back into that word.
01:37:50
Speaker
It was originally a talk that he gave at a ah college. It was the memorial lecture at King's College in the University of London in 1944.
01:38:05
Speaker
Uh, and so, so I believe he's talking to, he's talking to young people, people in college. And, um, he decides to give them some advice. He's, he opens it with a quote from War and Peace. And he says, you know, when you invite a middle-aged moralist to address to you, I suppose I must conclude. However, unlikely the conclusion seems that you have a taste for middle-aged moralizing.
01:38:31
Speaker
I shall do my best to gratify it. Um, In the passage that he quotes from War and Peace,
01:38:40
Speaker
a character named Boris enters a room and Prince Andre, who's one of the main characters from War and Peace, is talking to an old general. They're they're both in the army.
01:38:52
Speaker
And the moment that Andre sees Boris, Andre stops listening to the general, even though Andre is just a captain and he addresses Boris and Boris could see,
01:39:06
Speaker
um
01:39:09
Speaker
that side by side with the system of discipline and subordination which were laid down in the army regulations, there existed a different and more real system, the system which compelled a tightly-laced general with a purple face to wait respectfully for his turn while a mere captain like Prince Andrei chatted with a mere second lieutenant like Boris.
01:39:31
Speaker
Boris decided at once that he would be guided not by the official system, but by this other unwritten system.
01:39:41
Speaker
And C.S. Lewis labels the sort of unwritten system as the inner ring with capital letters.
01:39:54
Speaker
And it is basically this these unwritten rules that you see, um you know, the use of particular nicknames or manner of conversation,
01:40:07
Speaker
um it's really hard to pin down the moment that you start trying to define it or that you speak it out loud is the moment that you will never get into the inner ring.
01:40:17
Speaker
So, um, and he says, you know, he identifies this as kind of a feature of society and he doesn't say that, you know, like we're never going to be able to escape the existence of inner rings.
01:40:36
Speaker
And that there are probably rings that are not distinctly bad. Like, ah you know, if you are the only people at your company who can do a certain job, then, you know, that's a natural inner ring. If you're a musical quartet and you don't have space for more instruments and you're all playing music because you love yeah playing it.
01:41:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's an inner ring. um But he says, you know, the existence of inner rings is one thing, but the desire to get into them is quite another thing.
01:41:13
Speaker
um He discusses it as you're trying to continually delve into an onion to get to the inner ring. And right by the time you've gotten all the way through the onion, there's nothing there.
01:41:27
Speaker
Yeah, because, you know, if you're if if the your only goal is just to get in, you know, he asks the question, like, you know, has this desire to get into the inner ring ever led to anything that you were proud of saying or doing?
01:41:48
Speaker
just if Just to get into the ring, you know? um If so, your case is more fortunate than most.
01:41:58
Speaker
Um, and I, I connected this to Mark obviously because he, I believe Cesar's actually names the inner ring. ah he uses the word inner ring, uh, in, in Mark's kind of desire at the beginning of the book, he's, it's like the progressive element at the college.
01:42:18
Speaker
Um, and then it becomes nice and Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark is defined by his desire to get in the endner ring. That's the only thing that he wants, that he names, is just he wants to be in.
01:42:37
Speaker
He doesn't seem to want to write a great book or work or discover some kind of cool thing, even though talks about it, but all of his actions um you know up until the end of the book really are just...
01:42:57
Speaker
trying to get in for the sake of being in. And he says, of all the passions, the passion for the inner ring is most skillful in making a man who is not yet a very bad man do very bad things.
01:43:14
Speaker
And we see how Mark ah kind of ends up writing sociology articles to justify Nice's actions. And um which are kind of by the end starting to amount to like genocide and yeah doing experiments on criminal prisoners and
01:43:47
Speaker
have you encountered inner rings in your life Eric? Well, his point is that everybody in every situation, when other people are involved,
01:43:58
Speaker
it engages in or interacts with inner rings. Yeah. We both were part of the same social show club while we were in college, and there was a felt inner ring.
01:44:14
Speaker
Yeah. I would say that sometimes...
01:44:25
Speaker
different people can have different views about who is in the inner ring and maybe they're different inner rings but it it always hurts to be cast out of an inner ring or to see one exists but you're not part of it it always hurts when you
01:44:50
Speaker
are trying to build your identity around it And that's been a ah piece for me in my life is
01:44:59
Speaker
realizing what my true goals are. Yeah. And purpose. is
01:45:12
Speaker
That is very freeing.
01:45:18
Speaker
And he goes on to discuss that a little bit in this in this article. I'm sorry, this essay.
01:45:31
Speaker
I'm sure there are many times in my life that I've been part of the inner ring.
01:45:38
Speaker
But I very quickly think about the inner rings that I was not part of. That I saw it develop around me.
01:45:50
Speaker
some of which I wanted to be part of some of which I wanted to have nothing to do with, some of which confused me, of which I was jealous of.
01:46:10
Speaker
think I'm slowly
01:46:16
Speaker
learning and growing let go.
01:46:22
Speaker
How you?
01:46:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think
01:46:29
Speaker
I've definitely found myself it and rings and outside of them.
01:46:39
Speaker
I think up until, you know, embarrassing recently i embarrassingly recently, i haven't the successfully identified the desire to to be in the ring as, as something bad.
01:46:55
Speaker
Um, even though like, not just like a social click for me, it's more like being in a band has been, has been something that I've always wanted to do and be a part of. Yeah. And it hurts when I see other bands, you know, I see a YouTuber or bands that I love,
01:47:17
Speaker
you know, talked about need to breathe. It's like for a long time, I just, I wanted, I dreamed fantasized about being in a band like need to breathe or something like that. Yeah.
01:47:29
Speaker
Um, and
01:47:35
Speaker
i would say, Oh, well, you know, it's, it's a passion, like, you know, follow your dreams or, you know, uh, but, you know the more I think about it, the more i just... you know Being in a band is not going to solve my problems. and it's Yeah.
01:48:00
Speaker
It's going to create a whole new set of problems. yeah um And he names as soon as you... He says this. Sorry.
01:48:13
Speaker
Once the first novelty is worn off, the members of this circle will be no more interesting than your old friends. Why should they be? You are not looking for virtue or kindness or loyalty or humor or learning or wit or any of these things that can really be enjoyed.
01:48:32
Speaker
You merely wanted to be in. And that is a pleasure that cannot last forever. As soon as your new associates have been stale to you by custom, you will be looking for another ring.
01:48:46
Speaker
The rainbow's end will still be ahead of you. The old ring will now be the own be only the drab background for your endeavor to enter the new one.
01:49:01
Speaker
You merely wanted to be in, and that is a pleasure that you can ask. Mm-hmm.
01:49:11
Speaker
Yeah.
01:49:14
Speaker
And so I guess for me, my desire has shifted to like, I just want to write good songs and find ways to to produce and perform them with good people,
01:49:28
Speaker
um
01:49:30
Speaker
which is a very different thing. And it's freeing. And and i I think one of those, when I reread this,
01:49:43
Speaker
It was this this quote, I think, that hit me. If in your working hours you make the work your end, you will presently find yourself all unawares inside the only circle in your profession that really matters.
01:49:58
Speaker
You will be one of the sound craftsmen, and other sound craftsmen will know it. This group of craftsmen will by no means coincide with the inner ring or the important people or the people in the know.
01:50:11
Speaker
It will not shape that professional policy or work up that professional influence which fights for the profession as a whole against the public. nor will it lead to those periodic scandals and crises which the inner ring produces, but it will do those things which that profession exists to do, and will, in the long run, be responsible for all the respect which that profession, in fact, enjoys, and which the speeches and advertisements cannot maintain.
01:50:44
Speaker
And, uh... I think perhaps if I read the next paragraph, it would be a good place to end. Unless we have more to add. Go for it.
01:50:57
Speaker
And if, in your spare time, you consort simply with the people you like and do podcasts with the friends that you like, you will again find that you have come unawares to a real inside.
01:51:10
Speaker
That you are indeed snug and safe at the center of something which... seen from without, would look exactly like an inner ring. But the difference is that the secrecy is accidental, and its exclusiveness a byproduct, and no one was led thither by the lore of the esoteric, for it is only four or five people, or two, look who like one another, meaning to do things that they like, like read C.S. Lewis.
01:51:39
Speaker
This is friendship. Aristotle placed it among the virtues. It causes perhaps half of all the happiness in the world, and no inner ring can ever have it.