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Raise a Glass to East of Eden Part II
28 Plays4 months ago
Eric and Hunter fall headfirst into East of Eden and barely stay afloat.
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Transcript
Impact of Rejection and Cain & Abel
00:00:04
Speaker
I think this is the best known story in the world because it is everybody's story. I think it is the symbol story of the human soul. I'm feeling my way now, don't jump on me if I'm not clear. The greatest terror a child can have is that he is not loved, and rejection is the hell he fears. I think everyone in the world to a large or small extent has felt rejection. And with rejection comes anger. And with anger some kind of crime and revenge for the rejection. And with the crime guilt. And there is the story of mankind.
00:00:37
Speaker
I think that if rejection could be amputated, the human would not be what he is. Maybe there would be fewer crazy people. I am sure in myself there would not be many jails. It is all there, the start, the beginning. One child refused to the love he craves, kicks the cat and hides his secret guilt, and another steals so that money will make him loved. and a third conquers the world, and always the guilt and revenge and more guilt. The human is the only guilty animal. Now wait. Therefore, I think this old and terrible story is important because it is a chart of the soul. The secret, rejected, guilty soul.
Introduction to 'Raise a Glass' Podcast and 'East of Eden' Part 2
00:01:17
Speaker
Mr. Trask, you said you did not kill your brother and then you remembered something. I don't want to know what it was, but was it very far apart from Cain and Abel?
00:01:41
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Raise a Glass, the podcast where we talk about the stories and storytellers that shape us. My name is Hunter Danson. And my name is Eric Lintola. And today we are doing East of Eden, part two. East of Eden, part two. Two East and two Eden.
Personal Updates: Health and Humor
00:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, that'd be chapters 12 through 22. And if you're using the centennial edition, it's page one 30. No, page 125 to 270. um So we've done part one, and I think I'll link it in the show notes if you wanna go and start there. um But this is a sort of way that we can read through a longer book ah so that Eric and I don't have to cram for these podcasts. We can take our time um and go a little deeper, hopefully. um But before we get into part two,
00:02:54
Speaker
As we always do, uh, I gotta know what is in your glass, Eric. Hunter, I have been dealing with headaches on and off the last week and a half. Hmm. And so I stuck with the safest concoction I know for a headache. It's a good old H2O and a Captain America Nalgene bottle with my lip guard. Lip guards make Nalgene's worth it. It's amazing. Hmm. It's true.
00:03:33
Speaker
have we Have you seen Brooklyn Nine-Nine? No. Oh my goodness, there's a moment. I was just drinking my water and I experienced it where Amy um becomes a lieutenant or sergeant, um and she's leading a group of uniformed officers. And one of the things that she learns from her sergeant is that you can know you truly can, maybe it's from her sergeant, maybe it's from her captain. You truly control a room when you can pause, drink water for a long period of time, put your water down, and then continue talking while holding people's attention the entire time when nobody speaks.
Screen Time, Blue Light Glasses, and Olympic Excitement
00:04:21
Speaker
ah So I thought about that. Hunter, what is in your class? um Well, i am i I'm not really feeling sick, but I'm feeling pretty sick. And I'm just really tired. um So I wanted something that would perk me up a little bit. And I have a ah cocktail, it's but it's a cranberry cherry juice cocktail. 100% juice. um
00:04:52
Speaker
But you should never, that doesn't mean it's healthy, it's very sugary. So you're drinking an entire glass of, you call it a cocktail. It's not really, it just says juice cocktail. Oh, okay, so you're just drinking cranberry juice. Yeah. Yeah, which is with cherry, cherry, cran cherry. Cran cherry. I always go for the cranberry apple on the plane. Cran, yeah. if There's so much sugar in it though. There's like 49 grams of sugar in this. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I'm hoping it'll keep me going here for Ace of Eden. I did put some ice cubes in it like as they melt, dilute it a bit, you know. You know, I can, I drink my whiskey straight, but I like my cranberry juice on the rocks. That's hilarious.
00:05:43
Speaker
You said the word dilute and I've i learned in grad school that if you say the word dilute wrong, ah you're going to get a lot of weird faces. So if you say like instead of diluted, if you say diluted, which is how I would say diluted, not diluted, diluted, diluted, that people hear diluted. the d e l u d e d uh which means something very different than than diluted um and so yeah just wanted to keep there in the the back of your mind as you're going around talking to people something i keep in the back of my mind it's like i need to really clarify that i'm saying diluted yeah enunciate
00:06:34
Speaker
So what are you what are you raising and pouring your H2O4 this week?
Hunter's Phone Woes and Switching to iPhone
00:06:39
Speaker
I am going to pour my H2O out for um screens. um i There are many things that I think have been leading to my headaches, but I think one of them is just the amount of screen time. um Like for work and for, you know, for i yeah play, I gotta say, for those who are following following along at home, my Pokedex is currently up to 72 Pokemon.
00:07:06
Speaker
um And I'm about to go fight the Elite Four after I beat one more gym. So that's exciting. But it's just really frustrating that weighing with screens can just lead to headaches for me. And i i honestly, today I was walking out of work and I was like, man, I can't even remember. I think I bought blue light, like blue light filtered glasses. But i'm I'm no longer fully sure.
00:07:38
Speaker
Um, they only helped so far. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I just feel the tension, uh, in my neck and my head, but I am raising a glass because one of my absolute favorite events is coming up, uh, very soon. Um, in fact, when this episode comes out, it might even be going on. Um, the summer Olympics. I right love the Olympics. This is something, Hunter, that I know you know.
00:08:13
Speaker
Um, yeah because my love the Olympics too. Yes. Oh, there's so much fun. and And there's some amazing new sports coming out this year. Uh, in the Olympics, we're going to watch break dancing. Um, or they call it breaking is an Olympic sport and where it's going on. It's like, it's dave the the Paris Olympics this year have really focused on being green and on not but building permanent structures, but instead using the beauty of Paris and of France as the backdrop. And so where breaking is happening is like right behind it is the Eiffel Tower. And like and the they now they've just have added like the there's equestrian happening at the Palace of Versailles. Like it's there's going to be some incredibly stunning visuals in this Olympics. And. um Oh, I was going to say you you. Hunter, you know,
00:09:11
Speaker
my love for the Olympics because Uh, sophomore year of college was the, there was a winter Olympics going on. I don't know if you remember this, but as the RA of the floor that year, I created the signs for the winter for everybody's, you know, like, this is your room. You know, we've got to pick and we always do some silly things each semester, like to put the name of the people on the doors. And do you remember when I did that ear hunter? Do you remember what was on your door?
00:09:44
Speaker
i I remember when you did Lord of the rings. Okay. but hunters That was the year of the Russian Olympics and and our dormitory was called root. So I named it the Russian Olympics and I drew stick figures of all of the sports and then put people's faces as big circles on top of the stick figures playing that sport. So Hunter, on your door, I'm pretty sure there was a downhill skiing, like stick figure body with a huge like bobblehead looking, like a fat head looking hunter face on top of it. I think that's coming back, you know, coming back late from class or something, opening my door, looking at the bobblehead.
00:10:40
Speaker
That's yeah. And I've actually gone about creating a a similar but different version of that for um my family, my wife's family. And I were all going on a ah trip and we're going to be on a trip during some of the Olympics. And so we're going to do something similar for each of them to to make a little bit Olympic themed. And our nice our family trophy is going to be up on the line. And so it probably will no longer grace the halls of the little household Per usual I answered your five-second question with a five-minute answer um Let's see how you respond hunter. What is it that you are raising a glass and pouring one out for this week? well my poor is also screen related my my ah
00:11:35
Speaker
phone decided to kick the bucket. It was just just had enough of life. Goodbye, cruel world. I didn't i didn't drop i didn't mistreat it. I didn't drop it. i didn't I didn't even leave it in a hot car. you know I brought it on a hike with me, but it was in my bag the whole time. Off. And I was just using it to try and find a restaurant after we finished the hike. I was also out of state, ah and it just froze, and it shut itself off, and it tried a couple times to turn itself back on, and it just never turned on again. So, left me high and dry. Thankfully, I pretty much knew where I was. i'd I'd done the drive back home quite a few times, so I found my way home. Oh my goodness. You were pretty well. but
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, I was with friends on the hike, but I had to drive home by myself. Yeah. good um So yeah, and now i'm I'm a lifelong Android user, and that we had and old the only old phone we had in the house was the iPhone. Success so in perfect condition. I'm very thankful that I don't have to buy a new phone because you know, it's perfectly adequate for what I use it for but um Now I'm on iPhone and If anyone who who knows me have no have knows the things that I've said about Apple and iPhones So it's ah You know
00:13:22
Speaker
See, Eric knows the things I've said. He finds it
World's Absurdity and 'East of Eden' Themes of Cain & Abel
00:13:26
Speaker
very funny. I told my wife that your phone broke and that you ended up having to use an Apple phone. And before I said anything else, she just burst out laughing. She's a hunter. It's an Apple answer.
00:13:41
Speaker
That's hilarious. Yeah. So, you know, i' I'll probably use use this one until I can't anymore. And then. But he says he'll use it till he can. It will accidentally fall down on the ground and get stopped on 20 times in a row. what aquot broke Yeah. I mean, now I've matured, you know, it's, I still prefer Android, but I don't, I don't really love Android. You know, I don't, I don't really like, I don't think Google is much better than Apple. You just don't love that there's only two options.
00:14:20
Speaker
But yeah I mean, and they're that they're they're too. We're getting really off track here. So I'm going to raise a glass to the guy at the um at the dump today who accepted the fact that I didn't have a sticker. um ah You know, I was ready to prove that I was a resident. um You know, I had my license and everything. I just hadn't had time to go to the town clerk and get a sticker. could have dumped. And then I was $3 short of what I needed to pay to get rid of this old couch.
00:15:01
Speaker
um And he's like, you know what, he'll just owe $3 next time. And he took my $7 and I was like, uh, nice guy. Guys like that, you know, Can't be underestimated in this ridiculous world that we live in now. What an absurd world we live in. I just, but I don't know, maybe we should just point out the fact of just how broken everything is. I don't know how important it is to talk about like situate ourselves in the political timeline of what's happening. Um, but like, I, who knew that we live in a time where we would see an assassination attempt on a political candidate.
00:15:39
Speaker
Hmm, right. It's just absolutely broken. I don't know if that's exactly what you're talking about, but like it's just thinking about the insanity of our world and the brokenness and it's just I I can't I can't understand it except that I know that God said this is gonna be what happens and It's been what's happening since the beginning, and honestly, East of Eden dives into it, and I'm sure as we get through further through the book, the the idea of Cain and Abel, that original story of two brothers will make itself more and more known, and we'll be able to see more and more parallels to the current brokenness of our everyday reality.
00:16:29
Speaker
as we read through a fictionalized accounting of reality in the the turn of the previous century.
Invitation to Read Along with 'East of Eden'
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and I think i think part two does start to get into it, um as you heard from the opening quote. and so ah I'm not going to do a super detailed summary um because you know I think this this type of like slow podcast is really geared towards ah you know people who are reading it with us. That's kind of the goal is that you know the listener can can read along and then and follow along with the podcast. and um
00:17:24
Speaker
You can also, if you're doing it currently while it's coming out, you can reach out to us. And ah I can't make bonafide promises, but, you know, if you, we we are looking for guests, we do have guests on. So if you want to come on and you've been reading East of Eden, maybe you could get in on part three or four or something. um And we would love to have different perspectives and thoughts but in part two um It gets I'd say part two is where it gets ah it gets exciting um Not that it wasn't exciting in part one, but there's a lot of action in part two and I
00:18:14
Speaker
I feel like part two is entirely is the story of Adam and Kathy and then what they look like a part like it.
Adam's Marriage to Kathy: A Foreshadowing
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah. Right there together and then their part where they're being apart and then being together. Yeah. So the, at the end of part one, Kathy has been nursed back to health by Adam and Adam goes insane and decides that he wants to marry Kathy. Uh, And that's a very bad decision. If you find out why in part two. um It's important to say before that that Charles sleeps with her. Right. too I feel like that's got to be important. um Yeah, because in this part Kathy is pregnant and she gives birth to twins.
00:19:07
Speaker
And after she gives birth, I guess these are like the big plot points. She shoots Adam and runs away and goes and she We'll talk about what happens with Kathy later, but Adam is kind of left with these two kids and he has Lee, who's a Chinese servant, who's basically raising
Lee's Role in Raising Adam's Children
00:19:36
Speaker
the kids. Like God bless Lee. Lee is amazing. I love Lee. Lee and Samuel Hamilton have the last two characters in this book. Yeah. And so Lee's kind of raising them, but the kids don't even have names and they're like, you know,
00:19:55
Speaker
six months or so, six months old or something, and Adam is just kind of in this daze. Get to over a year old, and they still don't have names. Oh, yeah. Yeah. um And so really, I think the climax of part two is, for me at least, when I read it was when Sam Hamilton comes and confronts Adam, basically like, chokes him, and like, like physically confronts him and kind of smacks him out of his his his days and he's like, you have to name these children. um And then there's this kind of wonderful scene afterwards where Adam is naming the children and Lee comes out and has a chicken and they're all talking about, Lee cooks a chicken and they're all talking about the story of Cain and Abel and how it relates to Adam and Charles because Charles
00:20:51
Speaker
tried to murder Adam because he was jealous of Adam because, as we talked about in part one, um their father loved Adam more than Charles. Yeah. And you can, and I think in part three, we, we, three and four, we see how that plays out with, with the next generation after Adam and Charles. um
00:21:19
Speaker
And that that's part two, a short, rather um disjointed summary. but Is there a reason you didn't share Kate's or Kathy's piece?
00:21:36
Speaker
ah Yeah, I figured we would talk about it eventually. Kathy, it's also hard to talk about because Kathy, it's like, it's it's it makes perfect sense for Kathy. Kathy's says basically a psychopath. She's truly terrifying. Yeah. And um I was reading Steinbeck's journals while he was writing East of Eden. He wrote letters to his his editor while he was drafting the book. And his editor read them afterward in the
00:22:19
Speaker
in the draft of the manuscript. And there's a book that you can get that's like the East of Eden letters. ah And I highly recommend it if you're interested at all in East of Eden or just writing in general, um because it's really pretty intimate and kind of like, because it's not just letters to
Steinbeck's Journals and Narrative Development
00:22:38
Speaker
the guy. He talks about planning the novel and thinking about it and how it develops as he's writing it. um i think is really valuable to see if you're trying to to write because it's hard to take these books that have been polished and polished and polished um and and figure out how in the world they came up with them from nothing. But in the East of Eden letters he says that he almost like kind of shocked himself with with the because he goes into really
00:23:12
Speaker
precise detail about how Kathy takes over this, um, whorehouse, uh, that is run by a pretty nice woman, actually. Fay. Yeah. And, and Kathy does these really, she manipulat you manipulates Fay perfectly. And so precisely that she she murders Faye, it takes over the house, and no one suspects anything. And it's it's like- And you understand why nobody expects anything. There's no way you could- Yeah. because she's
00:23:55
Speaker
She acts coldly, like she acts fully based on her own rational understanding of the world, which as a reader we know is completely irrational and illogical. But yeah she acts like only a sociopath or psychopath probably could act. Yeah. And Steinwick was like, yeah, I kind of shocked myself. the amount of detail I went into this and, you know, how I could think such thoughts. Because it's one thing to read it in a book and and we're, I think, kind of desensitized ah to murder. We have lots of murder mysteries and things like that. But it's another thing when you, you know, imagine sitting there and thinking through how how you would go about this murder and then writing it into this into a character like Kathy.
00:24:52
Speaker
um
00:24:55
Speaker
Terrifying. So that's where Kathy ends up. She's the head of this whorehouse and She thinks things run differently under Kate as she is called now and that's where we leave her and then there's the big scene with the boys naming the boys and um Their names become Caleb and Aaron So under We're now in part two of this really, i mean really incredible book. I'm enjoying it so much more than I originally thought when I picked up a Steinbeck, another Steinbeck book. um It's truly nothing like Travels with Charlie. And it's and it feels nothing to me like like grapes of wrath or of mice and men, even though I can see some of the same visuals and the same, even yeah maybe even
00:25:56
Speaker
the same author, right?
Steinbeck's Storytelling Style Compared to Blues
00:25:57
Speaker
So there's certain similar writing styles in some of these pieces, but um I'm beginning to understand why you brought this to us. But I'm interested to know, since our podcast is focused on the stories and storytellers that shape us, what passages, what memories, what um even whether it be words or or ideas stick out to you from this part that have shaped you ah from your first reading on and and maybe even from this most recent reading. Yeah, um I have I have a couple things that I think I'd like to say about like,
00:26:48
Speaker
that apply more largely to Steinbeck, like my views of Steinbeck as a writer and East of Eden in particular as a book. And then I have a few things more personal that have I've carried with me from from this book from my first read. Yeah, well, let's start with the big and then we'll dive into the the particular. So I think the first one, and this is a passage that I remembered from my first read that I never really forgot about. And it's on page 130 towards the beginning of part two. um I mean, there's just, if we start reading a paragraph, I'm not gonna be able to stop. um Which is, in the in the in the journals, Steinbeck talks about how this book, he intentionally wrote it
00:27:43
Speaker
so that almost anyone could read it. Because if you look at the words that he he chooses and how simple his sentences are, it's very easy to read. yeah like it is it is It doesn't really require that high of like a reading comprehension. You don't really have to work at it that hard. And yet, it's also really elegant. it's To me, it's kind of like it's kind of like a really nice, slow blues riff. where it's like, it's it doesn't blow you out of the water. it doesn't it's not hard It's not like hard to understand a blues a basic blues riff, but it just makes you feel um as as deeply, um and and for me at least, most of the time even more deeply than you know some ridiculous, crazy ah shredding all the way down the fretboard.
00:28:40
Speaker
um on on a guitar and so But what I remembered specifically and this relates to Steinbeck as as an American writer is this part in chapter 13 Which is page 130 131 in the centennial edition um Where he talks about This like what what he is about, this idea of being a writer.
Steinbeck's American Ideals of Freedom
00:29:13
Speaker
um He doesn't talk specifically about being a writer, but he uses I. He uses the first person.
00:29:21
Speaker
um And he talks about, he relates it to the context of his present day of when he was writing, which I think is, you know, he's is talking about I'm pretty sure he's talking about like communism and the idea of these like collective ideas that are um can kind of crowd out the the individual. And he says, this I believe that the free exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes undirected.
00:30:06
Speaker
In this I must fight against any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual. This is what I am and what I am about." And and that is why Steinbeck is an American writer, because we talk, you know, the buzzword in America is that the rugged individualism. um And whether or not you agree with him, whether, and I'm not sure I totally do, ah even though if you know me, you know that I have very strong opinions and I really treasure unique thoughts and the ability to have a free mind.
00:30:47
Speaker
um
00:30:52
Speaker
I still think that there are things worth submitting your mind to um greater than yourself, but
00:31:07
Speaker
the free exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world
00:31:22
Speaker
That's a type of quote that requires a pause to
00:31:29
Speaker
understand, because even though the words are simple, the concept is it extends beyond the words. Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker
and that And that is, um I think this book
00:31:57
Speaker
what you were talking about how things move behind the words and the complex ideas behind simple words really, really showed me what writing is is capable of and fiction specifically.
00:32:18
Speaker
Cause if you said this in an essay, I don't think it would really, it would just be kind of weird and like eccentric, you know, Like this weird guy writing his manifesto. But it's set at East of Eden. And it has so much more weight in the context of the story and and who the narrator is. um
00:32:44
Speaker
And is it the idea that this narrator's thoughts is actually Steinbeck's thoughts?
00:32:51
Speaker
I think it is. I think it's quite close. It is Steinbeck writing. Another thing he said about East of Eden is that it's the book that he'd been preparing to write his whole life. All the other books that he wrote were practiced for East of Eden. um It's like, because it's about the Salinas Valley it's about his grandfather and his family um And he said the story about all of Hamilton in here, his mother, uh, when she went on the plane. Yeah. He said, he said in his journal, like, I don't, I don't think you believe that it's true, but it's true. He told his editor, he's like, that's exactly how it happened. There's, there's a, let's just share that. There's a story. No, we'll get to that in a minute. Um, okay.
00:33:50
Speaker
And another thing related to the narrator on page 182 in chapter 17, he sort of contradicts himself as a narrator.
Narrator's Reflection on Kathy's Monstrous Nature
00:34:01
Speaker
He says, when I said Kathy was a monster, it seems to me that it was so. Now I have bent close with a glass over the small print of her and reread the footnotes and I wonder if it was true. It's it's like he's letting you in on Unwriting the novel a little bit like you're looking over his shoulder.
00:34:30
Speaker
I Wonder If Kathy in a world of cafes I Wonder what a world of cafes would look like I Right. It's in many ways this idea of like space Odyssey. It doesn't want a space Odyssey. Like Kathy is humans. like And like the the human character jar is the robot. Like there's this idea that she is not actually able to empathize and think and act and be a human. And I feel like a lot of dystopian and sci-fi
00:35:17
Speaker
is focused on making the world like Kathy or 1984, right? That's there's, you know, or there's other examples that go to my head. Um, I can't remember the name of the books. That's just a fun little mental exercise. I kept reading the quote that you started with. Um, right Who knows, but that she tried to tell someone or everyone what she was like and could not for lack of a common language. Her life may have been in her language, formal, developed, and indecipherable. It is easy to to say she was bad, but there's little meaning unless we know why.
00:36:06
Speaker
Yeah, i mean there's this is one of those things. There's there's all of these conversations conversations even if they're just written as monologues that are happening within, by the narrator within this larger book, it's it's hard to tell at different points. Like, am I reading historical, like a historical work? Like, am I reading fiction? Am I reading something strangely other than both of those? um and And I think those are both really good quotes to bring us to about the narrator. But I'm also aware
00:36:46
Speaker
that you shared at the beginning that there are specific other pieces that ah keep you coming back. So I want to stop myself from getting a soft track again and come back to you. Yeah. um I think i think one more one more thing I want to say about Steinbeck is um I don't think he can really hide who he is. You talked about he's an American man. He doesn't really use the word she when he talks about mankind. He talks about man and he and whatever when he talks about mankind in that way. And um I think you you could level a lot of criticisms at Steinbeck for that, which he deserves. But I also think that Steinbeck
00:37:43
Speaker
is like genuine in that he's so caught up in his story that like the characters that he pours himself into, um, Sam Hamilton, Lee, um, uh, Kathy, I don't know. It's weird to say that he pours himself into Kathy, but these characters that he's unearthed and that he's like, What East of Eden made me love about Steinbeck is that Steinbeck doesn't really care whether he's a great American writer or not. Steinbeck knows what he is. He dropped out of school. He was like a journalist for a while. His like personal seal is a pig with wings.
00:38:33
Speaker
um And he knows that writing fiction is a really strange passion. And he talks about how, in the East of Eden letters, how it's very exciting and grand from far away, but it's really boring and kind of annoying up close, because he just sits for hours writing away, away from his wife. And he's kind of lost in the novel so much that he's like, You know, he talks about the two worlds, like the world of the novel and the world, the real world that he has to deal with. And he's like, it's probably pretty frustrating for the people close to me because I'm so absorbed in this book and my characters that I'm like kind of distracted when I'm trying to be with my family and stuff. And so, you know, whatever you think about Steinbeck and his point of view and his prejudices,
00:39:34
Speaker
you know Steinbeck doesn't really Steinbeck's not really worried about what you think he's just trying to present his characters and explore them and try to find some truth as he as he sees it um as hard as he can but there are probably I tried to narrow it down and I came up with like three scenes in part two that when I read it the first time, I ah like remembered them forever. they The way I you know have observed that I experience stories, um especially books,
00:40:30
Speaker
goes goes back to like moments of visions, like specific scenes, specific words that I just kind of ruminate on off and on throughout the years of my life. They get big become like part of my my life experience. um Like, you know, as I'm doing dishes, I think about tests of the dupervilles milking cows or something and get a little lost in that for a little while or whatever. um So the first one, by order of appearance, I guess, is on page 161, is when Lee meets Samuel Hamilton.
Lee and Sam Hamilton's Cultural Dialogue
00:41:11
Speaker
Come on. I don't want to talk about this. ah You could take it. I got two more. Keep going, keep going. OK, so Samuel Hamilton finally meets Lee and
00:41:27
Speaker
Lee does a sort of dialect thing, um which is ah kind of like a pidgin English, which was a thing. um I can't really say how true to life Steinbeck's representation is, but I think it's clear to me from the character of Lee that Steinbeck has a lot of empathy for, you know, ah Chinese Americans or who had a similar experience to Lee, at least. um And so they're they're riding in a cart or something, and they're alone. And Sam, it talks to Lee a little bit, and Lee gives him the pigeon. And Sam Hamilton kind of detects something a little bit. He detects something behind Lee's eyes, that there might be something deeper there. And he says, Lee,
00:42:25
Speaker
Sam Hamilton said at last, I mean no disrespect, but I've never been able to figure why you people still talk pigeon when an illiterate baboon from the black bogs of Ireland with a head full of Gaelic and a tongue like a potato learns to talk a poor grade of English in 10 years. And then Lee tries to brush it off a little bit. And finally, Sam presses it more and Lee says, it's more like than a convenience. It's even more than self protection. Mostly we have to use it to be understood at all. And Lee is probably the smartest man in this book. Like he's come to find out he's got a library. He is like translating Chinese poetry into English.
00:43:13
Speaker
he ah There's some wonderful parts in part three and four where he's really the key to kind of understanding the theme of Steinbeck's novel. um And I just, I love Lee and Sam Hamilton finally getting to talk um for real. Yes, because from this point onwards, they always talk. Yeah using the same language, you know and the same communication patterns and and Yet Lee will jump back and forth with everybody else Yeah ah You started a quote but the entirety of the quotes the entire conversation between one 161 162 is is Is phenomenal and and I honestly
00:44:07
Speaker
don't feel prepared at this particular moment to be able to parse out the richness of it and the way that it speaks into it it could could speak into our cultural moment and some of that's you me in my own background.
Lee's Identity Struggle as Chinese-American
00:44:24
Speaker
um and things I have and have not experienced. um But I want to read a little bit more from what you had read, if that's okay.
00:44:38
Speaker
um So directly following the quote you used, Hunter, Samuel's response, he shows no response of having observed any change, it says. And that by itself, when Lee like completely changed the entire way he spoke, Um, he was completely unsurprised. So, so maybe a good example of this that I'm thinking about is, um, Hunter, one of our favorite shows, the ways we connected was over the show, the mentalist. And there is, there's an episode of the mentalist where there's a character who, um, pretends to have a learning disability ah or a disability of some sort. Um, and.
00:45:26
Speaker
Patrick Jane figures it out. Patrick Jane proves it by referencing a small obscure fact from Moby Dick. And just in a conversation, and this this guy corrects him. And Patrick's like, oh, it's wonderful to meet you. My name's my name iss Patrick. And you can see in this moment, the the The character realizes his entire persona changes. that you You realize in that moment that he's actually the murderer and like he becomes and he like also one of the smartest people anywhere he is. And he created this persona to protect himself so he could get away with more issue more things.
00:46:19
Speaker
but If, as, as watchers of that, when that happens, like we're aghast and like the change in language just throws us like against the wall. But Patrick James, it's like, yeah, I saw it coming. I knew it was going to come. I was, I helped but prompt it. And, and I think that we all desired to be like Samuel in the sense of being able to see the person in front of us.
00:46:50
Speaker
and genuinely wonder and and have questions and want to know them, um but to not let that sense of wonder become a sense of assumption and a sense of prejudice. yeah And this is the perfect example of Samuel living that out.
00:47:19
Speaker
And then Lee's response is to then talk about his own experience as Lee asked him, this is topic page 162. um Lee's trying to explain to Samuel the difference that the two of them have, and the reason why he uses Pidgeot and he communicates in a certain way, whereas Samuel never would. Lee says, where there is no likeness of experience, it's very difficult. I understand you were not born in America. Sammy says no in Ireland. And then Lee continues, and in a few years, you can almost disappear. While I, who was born in Grass Valley, went to school and several years to the University of California, have no chance of missing mixing. Sam, if you cut your cue dressed and talk like other people,
00:48:13
Speaker
No, I tried it. The so-called whites, I was still a Chinese, but an untrustworthy one, and at the same time my Chinese friends steered clear of me. I had to give it up. Lee pulled up under a tree, got out, and then fastened the check rein. Time for lunch, he said. I made a package. Would you like some? just
00:48:39
Speaker
Yeah, and he tries to go back to China, too. And he said, so they said I looked like a foreign devil. They said I spoke like a foreign devil. I made mistakes in manners and I didn't know delicacies that had grown up since my father left. They wouldn't have me. You can believe it or not. I'm less foreign here than I was in China. maybe We're probably not the best two people to try and parse this out. um But I was, let me let me say this, I was, and please listen to the whole thing I'm gonna say before you make a judgment to your listener. um I was,
00:49:22
Speaker
ah what I re-watched Crazy Rich Asians yesterday. um It's been a
Representation in Media and Lee's Identity
00:49:28
Speaker
long time since I've watched it. and I just remember really having so much fun watching that movie um and I think it for so many reasons like there is a a Flex that happens at the beginning of that movie in the very first scene That is absolutely incredible um You should watch it just for the first ten minutes five minutes um but one of the
00:49:54
Speaker
things I really enjoyed in watching it was being able to watch and experience and be part of a movie that was entirely about a culture um that was completely different from my own. um And so where the representation of who was in the movie, like I couldn't see myself physically and you in that space, but I got the chance to learn about so different Like see, see a lot of these, obviously it's a fictional book, you know, fictional movie, but I got to see the chance to see some of these interactions. And, and the, one of the primary characters, the primary character of the movie, she experiences that exact same moment that Lee's talking about when she's in Singapore, um, is, you know, she's, she's too American in all of her paces, spaces. And that's a a piece that.
00:50:54
Speaker
i've've I have family that that has talked about that problem and that challenge when living when moving um as as Finnish Americans trying to go back to Finland and being like not finish enough. um and And I also know that's also completely different, right? and And Lee brings it up there. And there's so much of our own experience in the United States. And you've looked through the history and I've i've spent I spent time in my job thinking around refugees, around immigration, around all sorts of spaces and and race and culture and language, all are interacting in that pot continually. And the way that people are seen and interacted with changes, depending on what they look like and and what preconceived notions they have and the scene.
00:51:50
Speaker
gives you the ah the space through Samuel Hamilton to be a learner. Not somebody who's already made up their mind and how the issue should play out and what the right thing is, the wrong thing is, but to be an alert, a learner in a space where you know that you really don't know. And it's very rare nowadays that somebody walks into a space and desires to learn. That's true for us. I'm sure that's definitely true for it's a cultural lie. I think that is around us. We can see that play out of the biggest political scale.
00:52:46
Speaker
I think the reality is if you watch the news, whether it be right, left or center um is what they're saying. They're saying, they're they're often saying things that are are truths or half truths, but are not part of the full truth. And a debate will never change the heart or mind of the people debating because they're not there to learn. They're there to prove the other person wrong. and themselves right. Whereas a discussion gives the space for learning, gives the space to set your biases aside or to explore your own biases and that of somebody else's. And this scene is a little snapshot into that bigger picture and how those conversations were happening
00:53:47
Speaker
100 years ago. yeah And I'm sure 100 years before that and probably 100 years before that. Thank you for sharing that, Eric. and
00:54:01
Speaker
I think what you're getting at is a big reason why you should read and and why. it's It's one of the big reasons I read um because you know even in John Steinbeck, who's a very American, you know white American man of means, um whether or not you like his representation of Lee, it gets you to think um and think critically about
00:54:35
Speaker
you know relations between I'm getting a thunderstorm right now, so I Don't know if you can hear the light I think it's thunder in the background, but too um yeah, and I think the power of of fiction is that it gets you to think in real and more realistic terms and and how situations that might apply to your actual life. Because if you hear a certain, you know, you hear a statistic about discrimination or something, there's a lot of, you know, it takes a lot to to interpret that fact into something that's actually, you can apply to your life that might actually change the way that you think. And and fiction, you have to do that. That's what storytelling is.
00:55:33
Speaker
um You can't really tell a story without thinking through what might happen. and Good writers do it thoroughly and bad writers not so thoroughly. In Steinbeck, I think he he is a very very, very good writer at this point. He's a master of his of his craft. He's been doing it a very long time. And I will say that that what Lee shares about not really being at home in America and not at home in China um is is definitely part of the Asian American experience. And there is a great, actually a graphic novel I read a little while ago told called ah American Born Chinese by Jean Duen Yang that if you're interested
00:56:27
Speaker
And that I would highly, highly recommend it. And I'm sure there's lots of other books that our listeners could can recommend. um That's not, yeah that our own voices, ah which are, you know, people actually writing about their own experiences.
00:56:54
Speaker
And so we come to the the second one for me. um
00:57:02
Speaker
And it is, I think it's sort of related because we're getting into some, we're getting into some heavy stuff here, some complicated things. um And this next one,
00:57:22
Speaker
thing that I think about frequently comes on page 175, beginning at chapter 16. And it's after Sam Hamilton is is riding back from Adam's place after talking with Adam and Kathy. And I don't know if this is after Kathy has given I think it's before Kathy has given birth.
00:57:55
Speaker
um And Sam Hamilton's kind of unsettled, and Steinbeck says, an ache was on the top of his stomach. An apprehension that was like a sick thought. It was of weltchmirts a a Veltschmerz, which we used to call Welsh Rats. the world's sadness that rises into the soul like a gas and spreads despair so that you probe for the offending event and can find none." And it's that word, Welsh rats. Except when I think of it, I think of world sadness.
00:58:38
Speaker
um
00:58:40
Speaker
which we don't have to look very far to find nowadays in the news. And even just in life, you know, even if I haven't looked at the news in a little while, I still, you know, just feel this world sadness. This rises into the soul like a gas. and spreads despair so that you probe for the offending event and can find none. That's a heavy one. Is your last one as heavy? No.
00:59:24
Speaker
um
00:59:29
Speaker
Well, sort of. But not really. but um i I don't think world sadness is like a bad thing. I think it's a natural reaction to a fallen world. I think it's important not to revel in it, you know, because it's definitely possible to enjoy cynicism and despair, kind of enjoy it in a deceitful way, self-deceitful way.
01:00:06
Speaker
but um I think it's important to let yourself feel it. I know it's important for me too. um And not to not to nullify it with the a water of life whiskey.
01:00:27
Speaker
As Sam Hamilton sometimes does. ah you You brought up this book again and talked about how hard it is to read one quote and then stop reading. And every single time you talk about a quote, I just kind of keep reading again. And I find myself on a page later and I'm like, what was Hunter saying? I just kept reading from that that piece of Welsh words.
Sam Hamilton's Introspective Journey
01:00:55
Speaker
and And the whole scene that follows where Sam Hamilton is trying to figure out like, where has he seen non-human eyes without any depth like it before, like with Cathy's? And it, he remembers back to being with his father and like, even though his father was trying to get him like out of the space, like in Ireland, they witnessed a public execution.
01:01:23
Speaker
where a man was hanged, and the man's eyes, this is 176, middle of the page, the man's eyes had no doubt depth. They were not like other eyes, not like the eyes of a man.
01:01:39
Speaker
It's like, you were talking about when you were, when you would do the dishes and then be thinking about, you know, whatever, and then your things, the time would just pass. And I feel like that's just what happened with, that's what that was that moment is for for me kind of, but then also for Samuel Hamilton, like he's riding his his is donkey, right? The donkey or is it a horse? It's a horse. I think it's a horse. duxology Doxology. Doxology. And he just,
01:02:19
Speaker
is so introspective that like time passes and it's just a little bit further down the road. backx out and This book does that, does that. And then it shows that it's doing that. You do that while reading it and it does it while it's narrating itself.
01:02:41
Speaker
Okay. What do we got next? Well, I wanted to ask if there's any that you wanted to add. because mine is towards the end of part. My last one is towards the end. i I... Here's the thing. i i I don't want to talk about Kathy. But I think it's so important that we do. We did talk about Kathy. Yeah.
01:03:15
Speaker
We talked about the couple times. Yes, that's true. I don't know. Maybe I just feel like it's, it's important to reiterate just the you get as you read her storyline. um
01:03:33
Speaker
Yeah. And yeah, it's like, I want to read more, but also when you're not reading her story, i I'm just like, ah, I'm so glad that I'm not in this spot anymore. And then yeah, and you get back into it. It's terrifying. um
01:03:57
Speaker
Okay, I got a different one. um Here it is. Okay, here it is. So, under this book, also, in the midst of conversations around Kate or Kathy, and I, Walshman, I immediately forgot the word that he just used. World sadness. red Yeah, that one.
01:04:25
Speaker
There's some truly hilarious moments. You referenced Olive's piece a little bit earlier. Let me read a couple quotes from chapter 14 about Olive Steinbeck.
Olive's War Effort and Airplane Adventure
01:04:41
Speaker
And it starts on page 150. and If the Germans had known Olive and had been sensible, they would have gone out of their way not to anger her. but they didn't know or they were stupid. When they killed Martin Hopps, they lost the war because that made my mother mad and she took out after them. She had liked Martin Hopps. He had never hurt anyone. But when they killed him, Olive declared war on the German Empire.
01:05:15
Speaker
She cast up out for a weapon. For a time, she put on Red Cross uniform. That was alright, but it was not driving at the heart of the Kaiser. Olive wanted blood for the life of Martin Hopps. She found her weapon in liberty bonds. She had never sold anything in her life beyond an occasional angel food cake. But she did began to sell bonds by the bail. I think she made people afraid not to buy them. And when they did buy from Olive, she gave them a sense of actual combat of putting a bayonet in the stomach of Germany. As her sale skyrocketed and stayed up, the Treasury Department began to notice this new Amazon.
01:06:00
Speaker
first there came mimeograph letters of commendation then real letters signed by the secretary of the treasury and not with a rubber stamp either we are proud but not so proud as when prizes began to arrive a german helmet too small for any of us to wear a bayonet a jagged piece of shrapnel set in an evidently base ah and then she outdid herself and outdid everyone in our part of the country. She quadrupled her already fabulous record and she was awarded the fairest prize of all, a ride in an army airplane. Oh we were proud kids, even vicariously this was an immense
01:06:42
Speaker
This was an eminence we could hardly stand. But my poor mother, I must tell you that there are certain things in existence of which my mother did not believe against any possible evidence to the contrary. One was a bad Hamilton and another was the airplane. The fact that she had seen them didn't make her believe in them one bit more.
01:07:13
Speaker
As a punishment, the ride would have been cruel and unusual, but it was a prize, a gift, an honor, an eminence. She must have looked into her eyes and seen the shining idolatry there, and understood that she was trapped. Not to have gone would have let her family down. She was surrounded, and there was no honorable way out, save death. Once she had decided to go up in a non-existent thing, She seemed to have had no idea whatsoever that she would survive it. Olive made her bail, took lots of time with it, and had it checked to be sure it was legal. Then she opened the rosewood box wherein where the letters her husband had written to her in courtship and sins.
01:07:59
Speaker
We had not known he wrote poetry to her, but he had. She built a fire in the grate and burned every letter. They were horrors. And she wanted no other human to see them. She bought all new underwear. She had a horror of being found dead with mended or worse, un-mended cunderclothes. i Think perhaps you saw the wide twisted mouth and embarrassed eyes of Martin hops on her and felt that in some way She was reimbursing him for his stolen life She was very gentle with us and did not notice a badly washed dinner plate that left a greasy stain on a dish towel Yeah, well It's it's a hilarious
01:08:49
Speaker
and then reading Yeah, you just want to keep you don't want to stop. ah all have The plane does loop de loops and barrel rolls and people are like, and it just keeps doing it. And I think we can skip to 153.
01:09:11
Speaker
What had happened came out slowly. The pilot talked some and Olive talked some, and both stories had to be put together before they made sense. They had flown out and circled the Spreckel Sugar Factory as ordered, circled it three times so that our father would be sure to see. And then the pilot thought of a joke. He meant no harm. He shouted something and his face looked contorted. Olive could not hear over the noise of the engine. The pilot throttled down and shouted, Stunt? It was a kind of joke.
01:09:44
Speaker
Olive saw his goggled face, and the slipstream caught his word and distorted it. What Olive heard was the word, stuck. Well, she thought, here it is just as I knew it would be. Here was her death. Her mind flashed to see if she had forgotten anything. Will made, letters burned, new underwear, plenty of food in the house for dinner. She wondered whether she had turned out the light in the back room. It was all in a second. Then she thought there might be an outside chance of survival. The young soldier was obviously frightened and fear might be the worst thing that could happen to him in handling the situation.
01:10:21
Speaker
If she gave way to the panic that lay on her heart, it might frighten him more. She decided to encourage him. She smiled brightly and nodded to give him courage. And then the bottom fell out of the world. When fell when he leveled out of his loop, the pilot looked back again and shouted, more? Olive was way beyond hearing anything, but her chin was set and she was determined to help the pilot so that he would not be too afraid before they hit the earth. She smiled and nodded again. At the end of each stunt, he looked back, and each time she encouraged him. Afterward, he said, over and over, she's the goddamnest woman I ever saw. I tore up the rule book and she wanted more. Good Christ, what a pilot she would have made.
01:11:12
Speaker
I feel like it's important to say that it took four men and quite a long time to get out of the cockpit. She was so much that they could not bend her. We took her home and put her to bed. She didn't get up for two days.
01:11:41
Speaker
Oh, man. it's it's it's
01:11:48
Speaker
It's so clear to me just the the quality of writing this is this is. I understand why it's considered a classic and a work of literature and a magnum opus of his writing career. It's truly spectacular. It is so approachable though, you know. it's like
01:12:12
Speaker
We get these ideas about literature of like, you know, titles like Crime and Punishment, which I love Crime and Punishment. It's also hilarious. um But it's called Crime and Punishment. And they're these big, thick books and stuff. But, you know, you read them and not all of them, but, you know, quite a few of them, as I've discovered, you end up laughing out loud because ah it gives you It gives you a book like East of Eden like showed me that it can it can give you all of life, all of the the sorrow and all of the joy and all of the glory.
01:12:57
Speaker
Well then, Hunter, with that, why don't we end with this last passage that you've been holding out for us?
01:13:09
Speaker
I feel like you could probably guess it, but it's the the glory of Samuel Hamilton. ah When Samuel goes to Adam and, you know, his wife before Samuel goes, his wife is like, you better not come back to this house if those kids don't have names. So Sam Hamilton goes and um
01:13:43
Speaker
The, like, I love this the way that Samuel Hamilton talks. I don't want to start quoting it because we'll just, we'll keep going. I know we will. We already have a couple times. Yeah.
01:14:00
Speaker
But it's it's a it's it's a beautiful scene. I just have this, you know, I'm um i flying from my memory here, but when I think about this scene, I just see, like, I see like Sam Hamilton standing in the doorway with like a, a crash of lightning behind him. And you can, you know, you can see all of the joy and pain on his face as he's going to confront his friend. Um, and he's this like, he, he's like really rude to Adam and he ends up even, um,
01:14:40
Speaker
like almost choking Adam. Like he grabs him by the throat. um
01:14:49
Speaker
And
01:14:53
Speaker
Samuel's hands were on Adam's throat, pressing the throbbing up to his temples, swelling his eyes with blood. And Samuel was snarling at him. Tear away with your jelly fingers. You have not bought these boys, nor stolen them, nor passed any bit for them. You have them by some strange and lovely dispensation. Suddenly he plucked his hard thumbs out of his neighbor's throat. Adam stood panting. He felt his throat where the blacksmith's hands had been. What is it you want of me?" Samuel said, you have no love. I had enough to kill me, Adam said. No one ever had enough. The stone orchard celebrates too little, not too much. And it's just like these these crazy things that come into his speech, like the stone orchard, a strange and lovely dispensation.
01:15:48
Speaker
um
01:15:50
Speaker
Scrubby rooster with sweet paternity for a fertilized egg a dirty Claude. It's like Man, yeah he's he's trying to shock Adam out of his stupor because he's got these two kids that he has to name These two lives and it's it's so you could call it melodramatic maybe but Whatever it is it it kind of it struck me like a bolt of lightning when I went when I read it
01:16:22
Speaker
That just even the but depth of the sorrow right after that, after this kind of beat on Adam more physically hit him. The fire went out of Samuel's eyes and he said quietly, your sons have no names. Adam replied, their mother left them motherless. And you have left them fatherless.
01:16:53
Speaker
I didn't do it, Adam said. Have you undone it? Your boys have no names. He stooped down and put his arms around Adam's shoulders and helped him to his feet.
01:17:09
Speaker
It's I've got like a little tear here and maybe it's just because I'm sleepy. um But the you brought it up as being the climax. And it is and and it it
01:17:27
Speaker
It's what gives the depth to the story. it's It's funny that the character we've probably talked about the least is the by you by the focus of the story, the main character, right? At least at this point, Adam is Yeah, he's, he's, he's there. You know, even, you know, even if you're not talking about his story, he's still like the one you're kind of thinking about, but this is, he's, he's almost like, no.
01:18:09
Speaker
He's the Frodo in the story and you just want to see Sam, you know, with Gandalf interacting with Frodo. Kind of just get annoyed at Frodo throughout the whole thing. You got to reread it. Well, okay. Yeah. Well, maybe also rings is a bad, bad example. Maybe I wouldn't go that route. Well, he is the center of the story. Um,
01:18:39
Speaker
He's man. I think the man Adam. Yeah. ah Adam. tres i'm I'm excited. So I still haven't finished the story. i've I've read parts of and maybe the entirety of part three, but I don't know yet. All the ways in which the names of the sons, because they're named, um, Caleb, which is my son's name and Aaron. Um, I don't know how if, if, and how those names will impact their life story in the same way that Adam and, and Charles is not a biblical name, but the way that their name, their name is kind of an Adam's name in particular.
01:19:39
Speaker
has driven so much of the story.
01:19:46
Speaker
Name's mean so much. Yeah. And I think it's it's really remarkable and impressive that Steinbeck bases the structure of his novel on the story of Cain and Abel.
Cain and Abel's Influence on 'East of Eden'
01:20:07
Speaker
And yet The novel is is still its own novel. It's it's still East of Eden. It's not just an allegory or some reflection of Cain and Abel. It is its own thing centered around this this ancient story that goes back to world sadness and hate and murder and love.
01:20:34
Speaker
um
01:20:40
Speaker
i love I love Lee and and Sam's philosophical wanderings through Cain and Abel. If you're reading this book, like just go and read ah the story of Cain and Abel. It's really short. He actually quotes the whole thing in paragraphs. Isn't it in part three? No, it's in here. Part two. It's kind of like the denouement after the climax. um After they're all discussing, after he's done the names and stuff, um they quote the whole thing. The dust is warm, said Samuel. Now it goes this way. And Adam knew Eve his wife and she conceived and bare Cain and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
01:21:33
Speaker
Adam started to speak and Samuel looked up at him and he was silent and covered his eyes with his hands. Samuel read. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was the tiller of the ground. And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the first things of his flock and of the fat thereof. and the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering, but unto Cain and to his offering he had no respect. Lee said, now there, no, go on, go on, we'll come back.
01:22:15
Speaker
Samuel read, and Cain was very wrath, and his countenance fell, and the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wrath, and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. and Cain talked with Abel his brother and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him.
01:22:50
Speaker
And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel, thy brother? And he said, I know not, am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What have thou done, the voice of thy brother's blood cryeth unto me from the ground? And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand? When thou tellest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth, and from thy face shall I be hid. And I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it shall come to pass that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
01:23:43
Speaker
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore, whoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden.