Transcript
Speaker: going to read. Is it appropriate to read three three paragraphs? Is that too many paragraphs to read? No. Not on this podcast. Accurate.
Speaker: I have wondered why it is that some people are less affected and torn by the verities of life and death than others. Una's death cut the earth from under Samuel's feet and opened his defended keep and let in On the other hand, Liza, who surely loved her family as deeply as did did her husband, was not destroyed or warped.
Speaker: Her life continued evenly. She felt sorrow, but she survived it. I think perhaps Liza accepted the world as she accepted the Bible, with all of its paradoxes and its reverses.
Speaker: She did not like death, but she knew it existed, and when it came, it did not surprise her. Samuel may have thought and played and philosophized about death, but he did not really believe in it.
Speaker: His world did not have death as a member. He and all around him was immortal. When real death came, it was an outrage, a denial of the immortality he deeply felt, and the one crack in his wall caused the whole structure to crash.
Speaker: I think he had always thought he could argue himself out of death. It was a personal opponent, and one could lick. To Liza, it was simply death, the thing promised and expected.
Speaker: She could go on and in her sorrow put a pot of beans in the oven, bake six pies and plan to exactness how much food would be necessary properly. to feed the funeral guests.
Speaker: And she could in her sorrow see that Samuel had a clean white shirt and that his black broadcloth was brushed and free of spots and his shoes blackened. Perhaps it takes these two kinds to make a good marriage, riveted with several kinds of strength.
Speaker: Here's the thing. You could just keep reading and keep reading and keep reading. And that's that's the thing. Especially for me, the chapters that have anything to do with Sam Hamilton, I just can't put them down.
Speaker: And if Sam Hamilton and Lee are in them, it's so powerful. Yeah. Sometimes, think we have this...
Speaker: stories like it aren't interesting yeah
Speaker: and that's just a simple falsehood
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Raise the Glass, the podcast where we talk about the stories and storytellers that shape us. My name is Eric Lintilla. And I am Hunter Danson.
Speaker: And today we are bringing you the much anticipated multi-year process third installment of East of Eden.
Speaker: If you didn't hear that, Hunter is very excited.
Speaker: Hunter, it took took quite a while for us to get here, but we did.
Speaker: yeah We're going to keep it going. It's going to be great. yeah I'm actually very excited to talk about this one. Even though it's like, i feel like a lot more emotional than some of the previous chapter previous sections has been, at least towards some of my favorite characters.
Speaker: no But before we get there, Hunter, what is in your glass? What are you raising? I have... Well, it's the season of apples.
Speaker: Uh, so we went, I got some fresh apple cider from a local farm. We also went apple picking the other day. um Filled a huge bag of apples in like 10 minutes with the kids.
Speaker: That's awesome. That sounds like a great family activity with little ones. Yeah. It's fun and it's not that long. The picking went very fast. Incredibly fast.
Speaker: That's great. That's great. Did they have any donuts as well? Any cider donuts? Yes, they had donuts and they had like actual hard cider too, like an outdoor bar thing. So it was like a class gift.
Speaker: thing but what's in your glass eric hunter i am raising a glass of o'donnell's irish cream
Speaker: hunter i am going to be pouring out a glass oh no o'donnell's irish cream and the entire container oh no came in i don't know how long it's been in our house o But it's been in there too long.
Speaker: I guess Irish cream doesn't keep well.
Speaker: but That was not good. I'll be right back.
Speaker: Hunter, I am raising a glass of
Speaker: apple crumble brown ale from the Southern Tier Brewing Company. Nice. Here go. It's the magic.
Speaker: ah I just dumped out the rest of that other container. Oh.
Speaker: Tastes like fall. who I love the taste of fall.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. That was not the start I expected. Hunter, what are you raising and pouring on out for this week?
Speaker: I'm raising a class. Yeah.
Speaker: Sorry, I'm just watching Eric's face. Eric is probably glad that we don't have a video podcast, but it would be a good time. I know what I'm pouring one out for. I literally just poured it out. yeah
Speaker: I am ah raising a glass to my son, who is five, and he's been playing chess. Okay. guess he has like a chess set at school and he plays almost every day.
Speaker: And he's, he's getting very good. Like about as, as good as a five-year-old can get a chess. um He's not a grandmaster yet, but he is he knows the way the pieces move.
Speaker: And we play games together and he like makes moves. And today he made like a pretty creative move to um try and attack ah my wife's queen.
Speaker: And it was, it was a very creative move. It didn't quite pan out, but you know, it was amazing because he's five and he's playing chess. Yeah. Um, well, that's, that's really cool to see.
Speaker: that's amazing. Have you taught him your, uh, or showed him your coded, chess game online where every time you move a piece, two pieces, two of your pieces, switch spots.
Speaker: I have not showed him that yet. Okay. That's one of my favorite voices of chess that exists. Yeah. Drunk chess.
Speaker: ah roulette chest but Um, but I'm, I'm pouring one out for,
Speaker: I just, oh The weather has, it's been like past couple of days this past week, it's gotten to like 85 degrees, which in the fall is just not right.
Speaker: Like this October and it's 85 degrees outside. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. It's a bad year too. Yeah. So we had some rain yesterday and it's sort of quieted down, but in its temperatures have got lower, but it was just so weird. Like I was on the playground and so confused because it felt like a fall day, but it was just too hot.
Speaker: My tomatoes have been loving that, but I get the, uh, the, the reasons for not. It's not natural. Um, i I love wearing sweaters. That's one of my favorite things about fall. And I just, I'm still wearing a t-shirt. It's not right.
Speaker: Yep. Anyway, what are you raising and pouring here? Oh, there's so many things I could raise and pour one out for, but I'm going to keep it light today. And so I am going to raise a glass to a show that my wife, Melanie, and I went to ah last week. Knight Bargetzi came to town, and we got the chance to go go see him um in our local ice hockey arena.
Speaker: And it was packed. There were 12,000 people there. And the place probably holds for a hockey game, 11,000 people.
Speaker: Because there are people all over the ice or what would normally be the ice for this this show. And it was very funny. I had
Speaker: you know somewhat high expectations, but like thought it could just not work out right. Because you know like when you you see your favorite band perform live, you want them to play all your their greatest hits.
Speaker: But when you see a comedian perform live, you want them to perform new material. Maybe one or two bits that you know, but primarily... you're going to laugh more his new material.
Speaker: And so I wasn't sure. It was like, I listened to his book and listened to his most recent special. was like, I don't know. You know, I saw him at the Emmys, listened to him on SNL, but I was really impressed and the openers were really well done and it was a lot of fun. nice um Now going to harken back to an earlier moment when I said there were 12,000 people at this event, which was amazing.
Speaker: It maxed out the space. We were parked in a parking garage nearby. We live... yeah If there's no traffic, it probably takes us seven or eight minutes to get to and from, or to get to the space.
Speaker: took us an hour to get home. About 45 minutes of that was spent in the car, in the parking garage, trying to go down four flights.
Speaker: It was... Thankfully, ah phones now it was a Thursday night. And so we just pulled on the, uh, the Thursday night football game from our phone. We're watching that as we were sitting in the parking garage under, I am still tasting that.
Speaker: Yeah. im smelled the container. i thought it was gonna be fine. o It was.
Speaker: Worded out. Yeah. You know, like the smell of mouth balls. Imagine having that taste just lingering in your mouth.
Speaker: It's not, it's not great.
Speaker: Trying to soak it all in brown ale right now. Okay.
Speaker: Before we get right into it, I have some good quotes. I've been in doing reading Steinbeck's Journal of a Novel, his East of Eden Letters. mentioned it in the previous part.
Speaker: um
Speaker: But should we should we do a brief summary of this one? Do you want to? I'm not sure if i memory I'm in a good...
Speaker: I can give a brief, very brief summary. Yeah.
Speaker: East of Eden, part three. The story in this East of Eden, part three begins with the death of Una, one of Samuel and Liza's daughters.
Speaker: As the chapters go on, and we're going to obviously be giving a lot of spoilers as we do in our, in our podcast, but We enter a space where Samuel Hamilton talks with Lee after visiting Adam Trask and has a long conversation around the word Timshell, a Hebrew word that means thou mayest.
Speaker: There's an incredible, amazing dialogue. Hopefully we'll get into it. i don't There's so much to cover. um But following that, Sam Hamilton dies and when Adam goes to his funeral, he stops to see his, his wife, uh, who we thought was dead, but Adam tells him this is alive in Salinas.
Speaker: Um, Kathy, um, it's a very intense scene. And in that there is a a change that happens in Adam Trask.
Speaker: Um, And the power that Kathy once hauled over him um really seems to be dissipating. And you can see it's really directly related to the relationship he has with or had with Samuel Hamilton.
Speaker: Again, go back to the farm in the valley, and his two sons, Aaron and Cal, nickname from Caleb, are out hunting.
Speaker: hunting rabbits, we learn a little bit more of their relationship and the intensity um and difference between Cal and Aaron.
Speaker: And then um Adam surprises his sons and says, hey, I want to become part of your life. He starts trying to talk with them more. He talks with Lee. um And he gives Lee the okay to leave the house.
Speaker: It hasn't happened yet. It doesn't happen in this in this part. Maybe it does in the next one. um But Adam goes back to...
Speaker: town. Actually, as he's heading back home, he buys a new car, and the first car from Will Hamilton. There's a fun scene little bit later when the car comes in, um and he reaches out to his brother, um his brother Charles.
Speaker: And he finally gets a letter back, and it's it's from lawyers, attorneys of Charles Will, saying that his brother died. um and that Charles left his fortune, which was pretty large, to Adam and Kathy.
Speaker: um Adam's son, Cal, overhears that Kathy is in fact alive, that his mother is alive, and he overhears more things about her and and her life.
Speaker: He wishes he hadn't, and he says a prayer, hoping he'd become a good kid. um And then...
Speaker: Adam goes and tells Kathy. she There's, again, another kind of cool, shorter scene there. and visits Liza Hamilton. and then the the chapter, the the part ends.
Speaker: with a story about Tom Hamilton and his sister, Desi, which is so beautiful and so, so sad. um They're both just reeling from the death of their father, sam Samuel.
Speaker: um And they're both feeling incredibly alone. And so they move in back to the farm together
Speaker: have a plan um to raise money and a big, big crop to then go to travel the world. um Then Desi ends up dying um and her death like finally breaks the last of tom hamilton's spirit and the story ends or the the part of this part ends part three ends with him mailing two letters one to his mom saying he bought a new horse that he's trying to tame um and another one to his brother will saying tell mom that
Speaker: The horse is the one that killed me. So a lot of ups, lot of downs. um Throughout that, we also hear about Lee's story and about his mom and dad and the beauty and pain of his story.
Speaker: It's very tumultuous. There's so much in this part. It's crazy. It's it's impossible for us to hit it all in this, in this episode. Um, yeah.
Speaker: And, and we will be missing some of your favorite parts. Um, whether it's the, that's why you read it. Yeah. Read, read along. you've had enough time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sandra, where are you going to lead us through? What are you thinking? What what what do you what do we need to talk about? Well, I feel like we have to talk about Lee's Bible study and that whole conversation.
Speaker: We have to talk about Sam Hamilton and his the end of his life.
Speaker: And i have to talk about Tom. I was thinking about, i think that was the scene that stuck in my head the most after my first read and on the reread. great places to start. Let's start with those three and I'm sure other ones will come up along the way.
Speaker: And we can't hit every scene. Oh, no way. this is Our podcast isn't long enough for it. Yeah. Funny enough.
Speaker: But I did want to respond to You were talking about Sam Hamilton and about how You know, we're interested, people think that good characters or like characters who are consistently good are boring or that they're, they're quote unquote bad characters for storytelling. But, and disagree with that as well.
Speaker: Um, And i think Steinbeck kind of does too. he's he In his journal, he said, there needs today to be the end of the kind of music which is Samuel Hamilton. It has to have first a kind of recapitulation with full orchestra.
Speaker: And then i would like a little melody with one flute which starts as a memory and then extends into something quite new and wonderful, as though the life which is finished is going on into some wonderful future.
Speaker: I want Samuel to go out with wonder and interest. This man must not be defeated, even though he may feel defeat all around him. It is the fashion now in writing to have every man defeated and destroyed, and I do not believe all men are destroyed.
Speaker: I can name a dozen who were not, and they are the ones the world lives by. It is true of the spirit as it is of battles. The defeated are forgotten. Only the winners come themselves into the race.
Speaker: And Samuel, I am going to try to make into one of those pillars of fire by whom little and frightened men are guided through the darkness. The writers of today, even i have a tendency to celebrate the destruction of the spirit, and God knows it is destroyed often enough.
Speaker: But the beacon thing is that sometimes it is not. And I think I can take time right now to say that. There will be great sneers from the neurosis belt of the South, from the hard-boiled writers, but I believe that the great ones, Plato, Laozi, or the how-the-hell-do-you-spell-Buddha, Christ, Paul, and the great Hebrew prophets are not remembered for negation or denial.
Speaker: Not that it is necessary to be remembered, but there is one purpose in writing that I can see beyond simply doing it interestingly. It is the duty of the writer to lift up, to extend, to encourage.
Speaker: If the written word has contributed anything at all to our developing species and our half-developed culture, it is this. Great writing has been a staff to lean on, a mother to consult, a wisdom to pick up stumbling folly, a strength and weakness, and a courage to support sick cowardice.
Speaker: And how any negative or despairing approach can pretend to be literature, I do not know. It is true that we are weak and sick and ugly and quarrelsome, but if that is all we ever were, we would millenniums ago have disappeared from the face of the earth, and a few remnants of fossilized jawbones, a few teeth and strata of limestone, would be the only mark our species would have left on the earth.
Speaker: Now this I must say and say right here and so sharply and so memorably that it will not be forgotten in the rather terrible and disheartening things which are to come in this book, so that although east of Eden is not Eden, it is not insuperably far away.
Speaker: Help us understand that.
Speaker: Which part?
Speaker: I don't want to repeat but.
Speaker: a long quote. What should we be left with? What do you want us to be left with from that? I guess.
Speaker: as as a is an ah As an author, as a lover of literature, what does this say to you?
Speaker: I think it, he talks about, you know, the duty of a writer to lift up and to encourage. Um, and which I agree with, and you know, there's a sense in which writing can be
Speaker: ah way for you to explore, to, to put your, your messiness out on the page, you know, it's a cathartic release in that way. But I feel like, you know, but that's all right.
Speaker: You're drafting, but then going to shaping it into something and releasing and publishing it is, is a different process that should have some kind of intention behind it.
Speaker: And, you know, art is art. Everyone has opinions. My opinion is that, you know, i really resonate with Steinbeck's desire to make Sam Hamilton, ah Sam Hamilton, a, a pillar to guide people, a star.
Speaker: um And I've said this about Lord of the Rings. People say Oh, Frodo is such, he's just a perfect character. You you know, he doesn't, It's like, but you know, that's, that's sort of the point to me is that these characters can be stars for us to, to aspire to. Um, and
Speaker: you know, there's this, there's a sense in which you should, you should write whatever you want to write and don't let people tell you not to, but, It's also like, you know, if you're going to be publishing it and people are going to be reading it and discussing it and thinking about it, then, you know, try to think about how it is going to hit people.
Speaker: and And personally, the way I do it is like, if it if it hurts me, then I don't want to share it as it is. Like if what I write and I read it back and it hurts myself and I, I don't want it, then I don't want to share it. I, I try to find ah way to save it or a way to save, you know, to make it hopeful or something like that.
Speaker: Um, there's a, one of my favorite bands is 21 pilots and, and um the name of the band 21 pilots comes from a play.
Speaker: It's an Arthur Miller play, I think. And it's about a, um, an engineer who okays these parts to go out into airplanes that pilots are going to be flying in.
Speaker: And the parts are not, um, they're not up to snuff. Like they're not, they're not, um, put together properly or something like that. and There's 21 pilots die because he okayed these parts too to let them i go out his factory.
Speaker: so you know and and That's that's it you know sort of a of the band. statement the main songwriter of the band but
Speaker: you know I also think like this is still relevant today. Steinbeck was writing some time ago in like the 60s, I think. Is he civied in?
Speaker: Or is it the 50s? 1952 it came out. Yeah, okay. So he was writing... he was also writing in the 60s. Yeah, 50s. But think about stuff like...
Speaker: but you know i think about stuff like Like deeply flawed characters are interesting to watch. Like, I think that's part of why Breaking Bad was such a big hit because he's just like this awful, he's doing awful, awful things, but it's fascinating to watch because he's just deeply driven.
Speaker: But like, I don't want to watch awful people do awful things, you know, like that's, that's not going to help me. That doesn't really make, might entertain me. But it doesn't, you know. Yeah.
Speaker: If you don't mind me interjecting into this. Yeah. No, go ahead. and When I read this story, and I've said this a few times throughout our different podcast episodes, I want to be more like Sam Hamilton.
Speaker: but He's not the only character i want to be like, but he's far and away the character that most deeply impacts me. And it's also um clearly evident that he's the character that most deeply impacts the people around him.
Speaker: Like Adam Trask, like at his, yeah at Sam Hamilton's funeral, like because of the words of Sam Hamilton, like makes an about face or seems to be making an about face in his life.
Speaker: You see Lee's interaction. He's the first person he starts speaking just contemporary English with because Sam Hamilton sees him as a fellow human being.
Speaker: um And then you get the the the impact on his children. I think especially of Tom and Desi. There's a quote in in chapter 32, and I know we're, for those purists out there, we were going out of order from maybe what happens chronologically in the story. But when speaking about Sam Hamilton
Speaker: and his impact, I think about Steinbeck's writing of the character Desi, who was beloved by the whole family And her gaiety was one that colored colored a day and spread to people.
Speaker: And in order to clarify what that looks like, he opens chapter 32. He talks about a woman named Mrs. Clarence Morrison of 122 Church City. She had three children and a husband who ran a dry goods store.
Speaker: On certain mornings at breakfast, Agnes Morrison would say, I'm going to Dusty Hamilton's for a fitting about dinner. The children would be glad and would kick the copper toes toes kick their topper toes against the table legs until cautioned.
Speaker: And Mr. Morrison would rub his palms together and go to a store hoping some drummer would come by that day. And any drummer who did come by was likely to get a good order. Maybe the children and mrs and Mr. Morrison would forget why it was a good day with a promise on its tail.
Speaker: It would go on and she would come home. Her eyes would be wet with tears. Her cheeks would go with tears and her nose would be red and streaming.
Speaker: And coming home, her kids wouldn't find the aches or headaches. There wouldn't be any scandal or attacks.
Speaker: Her husband would feel listened to. everything about their family's lives would be changed for two to three days because of the the storytelling, the laughter, just the the openness, honesty, and and celebratory nature that was Desi Hamilton and the way that impacted everybody who went into her dressmaking store.
Speaker: And her the loss of her dad, know, after the loss of Una, like, decimated her. changed her entire personality. um And she couldn't figure out why, but she wanted it back.
Speaker: um and And you see that Tom, it also, you know Tom also had that space and and their interactions together were ones of such joy for the short period of time that they had um in this chapter, at least and in this in this part.
Speaker: But you can see the ripples of that impact. You can even see the ripple of the impact from Sam Hamilton to Adam Trask to Kathy and the way she responds to that and, and, and the ripple to his children.
Speaker: It's, it's truly inspiring. Yeah.
Speaker: And I, I journey before destination. Yeah.
Speaker: Sorry. Sorry. Um, and I connected it to one of the, like, I think one of the most important parts of this part, uh, which is the Bible study.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. Um, and cause you know, Steinbeck kind of, he hits on this thing in the story of Cain and Abel.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Cain is jealous of Abel because God likes Abel's offering better. And God says to Cain, ah because Cain is jealous, in the King James Version,
Speaker: um according to Lee, Jehovah says, If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
Speaker: And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt will over him. And Lee says, it was the thou shalt that struck me, because it was a promise that Cain would conquer sin.
Speaker: And so when Steinbeck was writing this, I think he he basically hid it right on the, uh, hit, he hit onto it like right away, but he didn't actually have the Hebrew word yet. He didn't have all that yet.
Speaker: So he like asked his editor to get it for him and his editor wouldn't ask like a bunch of rabbis and stuff. Um, and I guess there is like some, uh, they argue about this word,
Speaker: according to Steinbeck's editor. But Steinbeck's like, well, that is if they're arguing about it, like that's enough for me. you know um This is Hunter, the editor.
Speaker: I managed to find an article, which will be in the show notes, by Daniel Levin of Penn State University, in which he states that the word Tim Schell should actually be pronounced something more like Tim Scholl. So it should be an O instead of an E. And he explores various reasons for why that Steinbeck might have gotten it wrong.
Speaker: But he does affirm that the interpretation of Steinbeck, the meaning of the word, does match with the actual Hebrew and with rabbinical interpretation.
Speaker: And the word is Timshel, and it's the word for thou shalt. And the other one is do thou.
Speaker: and So it what him but basically what comes out is that the it means thou mayest. So either you can or you can't.
Speaker: And for Steinbeck, that is like this the heart of the entire book as because, you know, There's this idea that Cain is is is destined to be bad or be mean.
Speaker: Like when Cal is praying, he says, don't make me mean. ah don't want to be mean. I don't want to be mean to my brother, you know? And with Kate, you have a character who, like, these kids have, their mother is Kate, who is pure evil, um Kathy.
Speaker: And their father is Adam, who is maybe be not necessarily pure good, but he's he's a pure person. he's He's honest, and he has this kind of, like, innocence about him.
Speaker: um And so Steinbeck is really, like, trying to like, give us an encouragement to say that we we can do good if we want to, because I think we all know that we want to do things. I certainly do.
Speaker: There's things I want to do that I don't do. And there's things that I don't want to do that I still do, even though I don't want to. um and And that's because we're human.
Speaker: we're We're flawed and we're fallen. And I think we all know that if we, you know, self-reflect for... Five minutes. We know. We know there's something wrong with us, that we need help.
Speaker: um And ah the beautiful thing about East of Eden is that Steinbeck
Speaker: says, Thou mayest. You have a choice.
Speaker: Yeah, specific language. Why? yeah But thou mayest. Why, that makes a man great. That gives him stature with the gods. For in his weakness and his filth and his murder of his brother, he is still the great choice.
Speaker: He can choose his course and fight in through and win. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: this podcast, we are not talking about the biblical accuracy of, of the word, the Hebrew. it's been quite a while since I studied Hebrew haven't gone back to the, to the direct source, but
Speaker: it really is a powerful piece that gives a lot of hope gives the entire opportunity of life.
Speaker: I feel like that's like the biggest sort of plot theme thing in this part. Is there anything more you want to say about it, Eric?
Speaker: This is, that's the one part that I read twice, if not three times. Yeah. But I think you covered it pretty well. And, and I think,
Speaker: It's something I would naturally gravitate to just because of my own personal background.
Speaker: ah love the way that they, they sit around just like sipping and copy, just in copy. Smoking opium. Yes. was Basically. And, and the, the way that, that Lee brings, he finds these, um,
Speaker: old Chinese men who like teach, who end up teaching themselves Hebrew in order to study this story for them. Cause he brings this sort of problem to them.
Speaker: Um, which, you know, you could say it's unrealistic whatever, but I just, I just like, I just love the idea of they're like these 90 year old men teaching themselves Hebrew and,
Speaker: And then he says, though, they're going on to the New Testament. They're teaching. They're learning Greek now. That's pretty great. um there was There was one part I wanted to share. This was a quote that I remembered years and years after I i read the book. um
Speaker: And it was about how Cal and Aaron... ah which are Adam's sons, how they react differently to an anthill.
Speaker: And so so... can I step into this? One of the the beauties of Steinbeck's writing, and I think it's actually something that C.S. Lewis shares, is this ability their ability to, we'll say, is Steinbeck's ability
Speaker: to explain...
Speaker: a feeling or an attitude or a personality or a, a, a thoughtful moment with a physical analogy that allows
Speaker: deep insight and is very practical for a reader to understand. And I think that's one of the things that he does with this particular anthill story, which you're about to tear.
Speaker: Maybe the difference between the two boys can best be described in this way. If Aaron should come upon an anthill in a little clearing in the brush, he would lie on his stomach and watch the complications of ant life.
Speaker: He would see some of them bringing food in the ant roads and others carrying the white eggs. He would see how two members of the hill on meeting put their antennas together and talked.
Speaker: For hours he would lie absorbed in the economy of the ground. If, on the other hand, Cal came upon the same ant hill, he would kick it to pieces and watch while the frantic ants took care of their disaster. Aaron was content to be a part of his world, but Cal must change it.
Speaker: So my question is, Eric, which boy are you? What would you do if you came upon an anthill? I thought about that. I've definitely done both in my life.
Speaker: I don't know if I would. I'm not sure if the reasons I kicked it as a kid was to cause destruction of like interest of what would happen, which I think are different things.
Speaker: Um, well, least the first time they're different. Well, you know, maybe the first time they're same, but successive times. Um, I would like to think that I'm just that person that would lie down and stare at the economy of the, of the anthill civilization.
Speaker: um
Speaker: And I think at this point in my life, I am that type of person. But
Speaker: I think of the word disruption as often as being a positive word. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. How about you? I'm absolutely an Aaron. i and would I much prefer just to watch and observe rather than change things.
Speaker: um
Speaker: i think it's I think it's sort of like you could almost... It's almost like the introvert-extrovert scale, but clear i want to be clear that it it is absolutely a scale, that it's not like a binary you're either an introverted sex, like, and, and people could change throughout their life. I've definitely become a little more extroverted just out of necessity. I think mainly, um, because, you know, you gotta get out there, but, uh, it's,
Speaker: I like causing disruption. i also think of, And obviously say the two of us are more extroverted. And so maybe this is working to your point.
Speaker: um But I also think of the destructive aspect of this disruption and like the purposeful cause of pain. And that's why I would say ah don't like causing pain.
Speaker: h And so disruption is important.
Speaker: Well, that's the thing is that you have and and like Sam Hamilton as an example of a person who this disrupts Adam's life, right?
Speaker: Because somebody has to do it. And, you know, I've been thinking more and more times in my life, thinking about how, you know,
Speaker: I need to say something. i need to do something because this needs to change.
Speaker: And you think about Jesus, ah who spent so much of his time disrupting the status quo and challenging the religious leaders of the time. and But I love that but image in the question of the anthill.
Speaker: it's ah It's a great departure from the usual like personality, ah Quizzes and studies and things.
Speaker: That it is to be Make for a great Facebook quiz.
Speaker: um Later on the story,
Speaker: Cal stays up to hear more about to overhear this, what his dad's telling Lee, um, in regards to, um, his uncle and whether he's still alive and, or whether he was, whether he was rich, not whether he's still alive.
Speaker: and
Speaker: He overhears way more information than he wants to. learns that his mom's still alive and that she runs a brothel and that things are harder than he thinks.
Speaker: And he goes back to his bed and he says this on page 377. Dear Lord, he said, let me be like Aaron. Don't make me mean. I don't want to be. If you will let everybody like me, why, I'll give you anything in the world.
Speaker: And if I haven't got it, why, I'll go forward to get it. I don't want to be mean. I don't want to be lonely. For Jesus' sake, amen. Slow warm tears were running down his cheeks. His muscles were tight.
Speaker: And he fought against making any crying sounds or sniffle.
Speaker: I love that little, and I have not read the last section, so I don't know what happens in this book. Um, but I love that moment because it indicates a changing of heart for him.
Speaker: And I'm hoping he follows through with it. He's also still a little kid. Uh, right. Um,
Speaker: But this, this disruptor, and I would say even more than this a disruptor, this destroyer, he spends his life trying to figure out the different ways to destroy people.
Speaker: Um, it's having this, like this deep desire to be like his brother. Hunter, we've, we've discussed Sam Hamilton and Tim Schell.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: What are the other two? You said Tom Hamilton. I kind of gave a little bit of intro to that by talking about Desi.
Speaker: Did you have a another? What was the third piece that you wanted to make sure we hit on?
Speaker: Or was it just that with Aaron and and Cal?
Speaker: No. It's Tom. Yep. Um, did also want to talk about Lee and his story? Because it's absolutely heartbreaking.
Speaker: Yes and no. i Why don't we talk about something later? that The Model T. Yeah, we're going to. At this point in the broadcast, Eric and Hunter have decided that things are a little too dark and they are going to shift to a happier topic.
Speaker: Enter the Model T Ford.
Speaker: Just call me Joe.
Speaker: Just call me Joe. All I could think of was um Paul Simon. Just call me Al. That's the entire thing. And I kept seeing Chevy Chase from the from the music video.
Speaker: Have you seen that music video? No. You can call me Al. OK.
Speaker: So Hunter, why did I have you watch You Can Call Me Al? I don't know. No?
Speaker: i don't know. was
Speaker: You can call me Joe. Just call me Joe. Yeah. Call me Joe. All I can think of is we're reading I'm reading Steinbeck and the situation of this this auto mechanic trying to teach Adam and Lee and Cal and Aaron how to start up this model T Ford.
Speaker: And he keeps saying, call me Joe. All can think of is Paul Simon and Chevy Chase in a pink room.
Speaker: Walk us through the scene. What you want to share about it? i don't know. um It's, it's, One of the funniest scenes in the book for me. And, um, it, I think it's, it's
Speaker: like when Steinbeck wants to have fun, he has so much fun. Um, let me get to the page. 365. Yeah, $262. $362. It's kind of a log thing, but basically he buys a Model T from Will Hamilton.
Speaker: um
Speaker: And it's funny because Will Hamilton...
Speaker: Well, Hamilton does not know how to drive a Model T Ford. Yeah, he doesn't know how to drive a Model T. He says something to Adam, like, oh yeah, I love these cars. And Simon's like, he hates Model Ts.
Speaker: They make him a lot of money. um And it's so funny. He, see like, drives it up to the house, and he parks it under the tree, and then he can't start it up again. um And he's like, I'll tell you what. I'll send you out this expert.
Speaker: to teach you how to, um, start up this car. And then he borrows a horse and buggy to drive back to town. That's right. Yes. Um,
Speaker: and so the twins are home from school and they're just like absolutely hysterical. They just, they want to get in the car. They're trying to touch the levers and like, look The boys made little dives in and out to touch something and leap away. What's this doohickey, father?
Speaker: Get your hands off that. But what's it for? I don't know, but don't touch it. You don't know what might happen. Didn't the man tell you? I don't remember what he said. ah You boys get away from it or I'll to send you to school. Do you hear me, Cal? Don't open that.
Speaker: Just... great Lovely dialogue. That's parenting. That is an aspect of parenting. It's not all parenting. yeah
Speaker: And they just... This guy comes along and he talks about you know this here internal combustion engine and says some slurs to Lee and Lee's kind of sarcastic to him.
Speaker: Then...
Speaker: then
Speaker: So here's how you start a Model T. Come around here, said the boy. Now you see that there? That's the ignition key. When you turn that there, you're ready to go ahead. Now you push this dual key to the left. That puts around battery. See where it says bat? That means battery.
Speaker: They craned their necks into the car. The twins were standing on the running board. Nope, wait, I got ahead of myself. First you got to retard the spark and advance the gas. Else you'll kick your goddamn arm off.
Speaker: This here, see it? This here's the spark. You push it up. Get it up. Clear up. And this here's the gas. You push her down. Now I'm going to explain it and then I'm going to do it. I want you to pay attention.
Speaker: You kids, get off the car. You're in my light. Get down.
Speaker: Now, you ready? Spark retarded. Gas advanced. Spark up. Gas down. Now switch to battery. Left. Remember, left. A buzzing like that of a gigantic bee sounded.
Speaker: Hear that? That's the contact in one of the coil boxes. If you don't get that, you got to adjust the points or maybe file them. He noticed the look of consternation on Adam's face. You can study up on that in the book, he said kindly.
Speaker: And there's a crank and a radiator and all this stuff. And...
Speaker: It's funny, Steinbeck, who's like talking to his editor, and he's like, people are not going to believe me about the Model T, but that's how it was. And then he makes them repeat back. He's like, switch to back.
Speaker: They say switch to back. Crank to compression. Thumb down. Crank to compression. Thumb down. Easy over. Check out. Spin it. Spark down. Gas up. Switch to mag.
Speaker: Yeah. And then after all of this, he's like, you know He's like, you've got to remember that. And Adam's like, I will. The next chapter. Adam at the boys straight and in the back seat.
Speaker: one week after the lesson of ford bumped up the main street of king city and pulled to a shuddering stop in front of the post officeice adams sat at the wheel with lee beside him and the two boys straight and grand in the back seat Adam looked down at the floorboards and all four chanted in unison, break on, advance gas, switch off.
Speaker: It's amazing. And then Steinbeck seems to be, seems to do regularly, relatively relatively often, he takes, he translate this, translates the, the humor of the moment um into a sad moment.
Speaker: and And it feels even that much more melancholy and and beautiful and like relational because it was for first humorous. After they get to town, Adam finds out that his brother had died. And it says this. This is page 370. It says, I'm sad about my brother.
Speaker: He felt that he would have to be alone to absorb it. He climbed into the car and looked blankly at the mechanism. He couldn't remember a single procedure. Lee asked, want some help? Funny, said Adam.
Speaker: I can't remember where to start. Lee and the boys began softly. Spark up. Gas down. Switch over to bat. Oh. Oh, yes, of of course, of course.
Speaker: And while the loud bee hummed in the coil box, Adam cranked the forward and ran to advance the spark and throw the switch to Meg.
Speaker: and And he's clearly in a space of experiencing a trauma. And... men
Speaker: the the bonding that he had just done with his sons and Lee over this, this model becomes something that is helping him navigate the traumatic moment itself.
Speaker: What a beautiful, what a beautiful thing. And like indicative of what life is. i feel like it's really hard. It's a lot harder than it seems like it should be to capture the intricacies um and complexities of life yeah in writing, because we're all such multifaceted individuals.
Speaker: And this is, this is a, a, a sequence that captures those highs and lows, um, and how there can be this, this relational thread that can, can gather and and grow and, and hold you in the midst of it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You said it's a, it's a lot
Speaker: harder than it seems like it should be. It's a good way to describe writing. Yeah. Um,
Speaker: but Steinbeck is really, i think he's at the top of his game in East of Eden. Oh, this book is better than anything else that he's written.
Speaker: i think of of the things I've read. I really liked Lettuce of Charlie. you know yeah it's It's of Mice and Man and Grapes of Wrath, are of course. I mean, even yeah more often read, at least in a high school setting, because they're shorter.
Speaker: Yeah. i I wouldn't use the word better, but it is, I think, just a... I think it contains... all of Steinbeck, all of techniques. is He's using, you know, he said in his letters that he's, you know, well, he says like quite a few times that he has been preparing to write this book whole life.
Speaker: um
Speaker: and he says, there's one other thing about this book, different from any I have ever done. Of course, I am doing the best work I can, but I am not taking myself too seriously. This is no assault on Parnassus.
Speaker: I am not putting grappling hooks into immortality. It is just a book, the best I can do with the equipment and training I have. And I'm pretty sure if I knew no one in the world would ever read it, I would still do it That is that is a a telltale sign of an artist, whether they're an author or musician.
Speaker: I would say, maybe a te as an addendum to my statement earlier, East of Eden is possible because of Grapes of Wrath, because of My Cement, because of the writing he's done before. Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's...
Speaker: It couldn't have come before them.
Speaker: At least the way it's written, how compelling it is, ah depth of the characters, right? This is something you just read. Like it's, it's, it's a lifetime work.
Speaker: Yeah. I might not shine as brightly to some as, as those other works do. And I still think I like travels with Charlie, like as, as like a, maybe even more, a laugh more during that one. It's a fun book.
Speaker: Um, but this is in many ways, like a culmination. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I, I guess I have something of a...
Speaker: Like, there's there's books, and then there's what we make of books, and what publishers say about books, sell them, why teachers choose certain books, why i certain books are chosen.
Speaker: You know, there's there's no, like, grand committee that... decides what, what are good books and what are not, you know, there's, there's discrimination, there's, you know,
Speaker: um money, there's promotion and marketing, there's all kinds of bad things mixed up in it. But, you know, what matters is, is your reaction to a book and how it, how it shapes you. And, um,
Speaker: We're getting a little was lost in the weeds, I think. We never do that. Well, Hunter, let's make our way to Tom's story by way of of touching on Lee a little bit more.
Speaker: There's a lot of things we could talk about in this in this seat part, as we've shared before. um We're just not going to hit them all. But both of us wanted to...
Speaker: namely, um and one of the things that Lee tells
Speaker: Adam is that his father, from his earliest memory on, told him, told Lee, the story of his mother.
Speaker: And
Speaker: That's part of what makes Lee, has made Lee so such a solid person in and of himself, knowing himself, knowing his history. And he says that as a way of encouraging Adam, saying, hey, you've got to tell your sons that their mother's still alive because they're going to find out either, you know, sooner or later, and whether you tell them or not, and it's going to have a huge, more devastating impact if they...
Speaker: find out later from somebody else than if you tell them. And he shares the story of, of his mother and father and their love for each other. Yeah.
Speaker: There's, um, there's one quote I wanted to share.
Speaker: uh, you know, I really think you should just read it. Um, because,
Speaker: It is a hard story. Oh, yeah. and
Speaker: And basically, because I have to give context for the quote, Lee's father and mother were working on a railroad gang.
Speaker: They were like laying railroads. um It was basically slavery. Mm-hmm. And she wasn't supposed to be there. She snuck on boat with Lee's father and disguised herself as a man so that she could be with him.
Speaker: And she's working in there on the railroads with him. And it turns out that she's pregnant with Lee. And so they had no idea what they were going to do.
Speaker: you know, these... the way that Lee tells it, the men were,
Speaker: you know, alone. There were only men. There were no women around so that if they knew that she was a woman,
Speaker: it would not be good. and
Speaker: basically they, they come up with a plan. They're going to get her to a lake. Um, and sort of escape. And Lee says, you know, when my father would tell me the story, i would say to him, get to that lake, get my mother there.
Speaker: Don't let it happen again. Not this time. Just once. Let's tell it how you got to the lake and built a house of fur boughs. And my father became very Chinese then.
Speaker: He said, there's more beauty in the truth, even if it is a dreadful beauty. The storytellers at the city gate twist the life so that it looks sweet to the lazy and the stupid and the weak.
Speaker: And this only strengthens their infirmities and teaches nothing, cures nothing, nor does it let the heart soar.
Speaker: And with that dreadful beauty, we come to
Speaker: Tom.
Speaker: T.O.M. Hamilton. His name is T.O.M. Hamilton. And there's a million places he hasn't gone. But just you wait.
Speaker: Just you. After Tom Hamilton's story ends part three of this book, what is it that sticks in your heart, right?
Speaker: Sticks in your mind that's it shaped you in some way?
Speaker: I think this one shaped me because I saw Tom, I saw myself in Tom Hamilton. And Tom,
Speaker: he, Samuel describes him as like sort of, he's sort of battling the greatness And i don't think Sam Hamilton means that as like Tom is a gifted, he's going to be a great man or something. But in the way that Tom is
Speaker: fighting life, fighting to be creative and make art, he doesn't have the like, there's a part, I wish I could find it
Speaker: where he talks about the difference between like Samuel's sort of poetry and joy and Tom's, it's it's not the same. He can't do like the same thing that Sam Hamilton does.
Speaker: um
Speaker: So, okay, so here it is, Sam, The way that they read. So Samuel rode lightly on top of a book and he balanced happily among ideas the way a man rides white rapids in a canoe.
Speaker: But Tom got into a book, crawled and groveled between the covers, tunneled like a mole among the thoughts and came up with the book all over his face and hands.
Speaker: Just what a way to describe ah person. Yeah.
Speaker: And I think I'm much closer to Tom's way of reading than I am Sam Hamilton's. Like I, I just, I want to get in the book, you know, I want to understand it. I want to, you know, come up with it all over my face and hands, you know, um, if it's a good book, but, um,
Speaker: I mean, even when I don't like it I want to understand why i don't like it. you know um And so
Speaker: and i really identify with like Tom loves his family so passionately. And he wants to to do everything for them, but he just just can't do everything.
Speaker: Like he can't be Sam Hamilton to them because he's not his father. And he has his own gifts. And I think what Sam Hamilton means by that he's wrestling with greatness is that if Tom can do it, then he could find how to love his family and be himself and find and find a way to love them.
Speaker: the only way that he can love them. Um, but the part that just really got me is after Tom, he, he makes a mistake. He'd like Desi has this kind of, uh, it's like a kidney stone or like some kind of condition something that, that,
Speaker: ah sort of like makes her bedridden. She has a really bad pain in her stomach and Tom gives her like the old Hamilton remedy for it. yep And she ends up dying because she doesn't get to a doctor quick enough.
Speaker: And Tom, you know, he's not a doctor. no idea. And so Tom feels responsible for Desi's death and it, it destroys him. Yep. And, um,
Speaker: and
Speaker: the way that Steinbeck narrates this scene is is so creative. I think that's the thing about East of Eden is you just you don't notice how creative he's being because his language is so approachable and it just flows so easily.
Speaker: you know um like Until you try to sit down and write and use some weird techniques like he does here. like he He says... So he's sitting around after Desi's funeral, and he hears his name called. This is on page 404.
Speaker: His mind walked in to face the accusers. Vanity, which charged him with being ill-dressed and dirty and vulgar, and lust, slipping him the money for his whoring.
Speaker: Dishonesty to make him pretend to talent and thought he did not have. Laziness and gluttony arm in arm. Tom felt comforted by these because they screamed the great gray one in the back seat, waiting.
Speaker: The gray and dreadful crime. He dredged up lesser things, used small sins almost like virtues to save himself. There was covetousness of Will's money, treason toward his mother's God, theft of time and hope,
Speaker: Sick rejection of love. Samuel spoke softly, but his voice filled the room. Be good. Be pure. Be great. Be Tom Hamilton. Tom ignored his father.
Speaker: He said, I'm busy greeting my friends. And he nodded to discourtesy and ugliness and unfilial conduct and unkempt fingernails. Then he started with vanity again.
Speaker: the gray one shouldered up in front. It was too late to stall with baby sins. This gray one was murder.
Speaker: and And for me, it's the
Speaker: the idea of using these small sins like virtues of greeting his friends. um You know, because like we were talking about earlier, East of Eden is...
Speaker: really trying to focus on
Speaker: making the right choice on, you know, defeating the badness inside of us. And i think at least, you know, in my experience, like I sometimes use like,
Speaker: small sins, like, you know, looking at my phone too much or, um you know, habit things. And, you know, there are bigger ones too, but I use them as distractions to like, keep me from making real progress, you know?
Speaker: Um, like, looking at my phone less is not going to make me a better father. Like it's as part of it, but like, you know, going to Bible study, you know, the, the, the definition of sin, I i think in the, in the Hebrew Bible, the translation is more like missing the target is more of the meaning of it.
Speaker: And I think so many of the bad things that, that either either we do or that happen in society, happen not because we commit evil willfully, but because we miss the target.
Speaker: And we try and just focus on not doing something rather than doing something positively. And it's very easy, at least in my experience, to to treat these things like friends, to have ah have almost a rhythm of like...
Speaker: you know, messing up and then trying to get better and then messing up again and trying to get better and never actually addressing the actual problem. And I'm speaking in vague vague terms because it's a public podcast, but um this this scene really, really hit me.
Speaker: I have a cord to close this out. Okay.
Speaker: This is coming from Adam Trask to Kate, second time he visits her, to tell her that she's going to inherit $50,000. And she's trying to figure out
Speaker: Howie's trying to manipulate her and attack her. yeah That's the whole section that we just- We skipped both sections. Yeah. We just didn't. Yeah. We can't do it. It's beautiful. It's intense.
Speaker: This, this, yeah.
Speaker: Um, and in response to her jives
Speaker: towards the, you know, pretty much ends the conversation.
Speaker: And a response to her jives, Adam Trask says this.
Speaker: I seem to know that there's a part of you missing. Some men can't see the color green, but they may never know they can't. I think you are only a part of a human.
Speaker: I can't do anything about that. But I wonder whether you feel that something invisible is all around you. It would be horrible if you knew it was there and couldn't see it or feel it.
Speaker: That would be horrible.
Speaker: And he's saying that
Speaker: to talk about the goodness of people.
Speaker: Because in her business and the way she approaches it, she only sees the evil, the most depraved moments.
Speaker: And he's calling out that that thing that's missing, that we've heard about in in part one and part two, but Adam couldn't see.
Speaker: That thing is goodness.
Speaker: The love that is possible.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And lastly, a Little tidbit from Steinbeck's letters to his editor shortly before he started working on the next part that we are going to discuss.
Speaker: The death of Samuel has removed gaiety from the world, and I have to put some back in. For Eden must be everything. Not only the grim and terrible, because that isn't the way life is.
Speaker: Life is silly too sometimes, and that must be in it. Everything i have seen or heard or thought must go in, and I feel the necessity for release now, maybe to rest my audience for the next thing that has to happen.
Speaker: To be continued.
Speaker: Thank you, Hunter. This is really good. I'm excited to read through part four, I'm a little nervous, especially based off that quote you just read.
Speaker: Don't worry.
