Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Raise a Glass to Kim's Convenience and Leaf by Niggle (Potluck May 2025)
26 Plays15 days ago
Eric and Hunter enjoy a tasty potluck meal with Kim's Convenience and Leaf by Niggle by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The Tolkien Reader: https://archive.org/details/tolkienreader0000jrrt (read for free) or https://www.abebooks.com/Tolkien-Reader-J.R.R-Rey/32208035121/bd (buy)
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Surprise Potluck Episode
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Raise a Glass, the podcast where we talk about the stories and storytellers that shape us. I am Hunter Danson.
00:00:38
Speaker
And I am Eric Lentila. And we are excited to bring you a potluck today. potluck is where I bring something and Eric brings something.
00:00:52
Speaker
And we usually don't know what we've brought. But before we get started, i have to know, what's in your glass, Eric? Well, Hunter, I tried to make a gin and tonic twice and somehow failed times.
00:01:12
Speaker
Doesn't seem to be that hard of a drink, right? It's gin and tonic. No idea why it was... It tasted as like, this is not right. And so I changed to a very different type of drink.
00:01:24
Speaker
I have some honest kids, organic, very good lemonade. Okay. being In the juice box. It's probably be okay with chin.
00:01:35
Speaker
Like with my kids, we always lift up the little ears so they can have something to hold a buy. Yeah. Top.
00:01:45
Speaker
There's a leftover from my three year old's birthday party. Mm-hmm.
00:01:54
Speaker
Mm. So yummy and watery. happy Happy birthday. No added sugar. They put sugar in drinks for a reason, but it's not too bad.
00:02:08
Speaker
Very good lemonade.
Drink Choices and Importance of Presentation
00:02:10
Speaker
Andre, what is in your glass? I have some Roe &
00:02:20
Speaker
Irish whiskey. Oh.
00:02:27
Speaker
Eric can see it. No one else can. Blended Irish whiskey. empty. Aged in bourbon casks. Pretty good. This is actually the last few drops of it. I've pre-poured it here.
00:02:40
Speaker
um Got in a fancy glass because presentation is everything.
Gardening and World Reflections
00:02:51
Speaker
You have it cordial glass.
00:02:55
Speaker
Hunter is currently closing his eyes, doing that type of thing, and looking up into the right, which often means he's looking towards heaven.
00:03:08
Speaker
It's much better when you don't drink it that much.
00:03:16
Speaker
Anyway, Eric, what are you raising? yeah
00:03:21
Speaker
Raising a box to? Yes. Your box.
00:03:30
Speaker
Raising and pouring your box to four. I'm going to raise one out. Yeah, it's it's always a good part. I'm raising one to the planting season.
00:03:43
Speaker
um It's got to spend some time out in the yard today. did a lot of weeding, went to garden store with my family. Bought a lot of plants. Bought an elderberry um tree and a couple blackberry bushes and a concord grapevine and and some azaleas and some impatience.
00:04:07
Speaker
And so it's just it's garden season. I love garden season. I almost brought garden as my story to talk about. You know I can talk about it forever, Hunter, because I have, too.
00:04:21
Speaker
So I'm raising one to that and I think pour one out. just We are in a cha chaotic moment um in our countries and in our world. It's like history it feels like right now.
00:04:40
Speaker
and There's just so many moving factors and so many things changing daily.
00:04:46
Speaker
It's hard to kind of get your feet under you um and know where to go. um
00:04:57
Speaker
even while I simultaneously know that my hope is not in anything of this world. But there's a lot of flurry of things changing.
00:05:09
Speaker
um There's a lot of conflicts in the world.
Challenges with Ticks and Gaming
00:05:12
Speaker
And so I just feel like it's kind of a, it's a tough time in our, in our, in our history. and And I feel that pretty, pretty intensely.
00:05:20
Speaker
how about you, Hunter? It's part of your job. Mm-hmm. It is. What are you raising and pouring one out for?
00:05:31
Speaker
Well, I am going to start with my pour because I'm pouring one out for ticks. um In Connecticut, where we live, ticks have just been awful. They seem to be keep getting worse every year.
00:05:47
Speaker
um found multiple ticks crawling on me, crawling on my daughter and um my wife. Like, three or four ticks crawling and then one bit my daughter. I pulled one off the other day.
00:06:01
Speaker
Oh, I'm sorry. I think I got it quick enough so there's no, you know, we call the doctor and everything. but No bullseye. Yeah, it's like, it's, i just, I hate ticks.
00:06:13
Speaker
There were definitely no ticks in the Garden of Eden. They are post-fall creations of yeah the devil, as far as I'm concerned. In the Garden of Eden, there were tocks.
00:06:25
Speaker
No ticks. Yeah. um ah Yeah. So, yeah, they're awful. Yeah.
00:06:35
Speaker
But we do what we can. And I'm raising a glass to a game called Celeste, ah which is a beautiful, beautiful little platformer that is as hard as nails.
00:06:51
Speaker
um But... it's It's honestly it's a game I played off and on for a few years. Just because it's it's so hard and it's also like such a good game that I like wanted to savor it.
00:07:07
Speaker
and um I'm getting towards the end of it now. but You're climbing a mountain is the theme. And they do some really creative things where the the main character is kind of struggling with with depression and she came to this mountain to like challenge herself and do something and and and a lot of things...
00:07:30
Speaker
A lot of the gameplay elements come out of like her negative thoughts. So you're like battling her negative thoughts, but you're not actually fighting them because you're just trying to get to the next screen. It's a platformer, and it's very precise.
00:07:45
Speaker
um I have no idea what platformer means, but... Platformer is like Mario, and you're jumping around. Oh, OK. Literally, a big you're jumping from platform platform, like the original Donkey Kong 16.
00:07:58
Speaker
But there's there's like there's like two controls, very simple mechanics. But the way that they do it is just so creative. the music is beautiful. the The pixel art is beautiful. And the theme is like really...
00:08:11
Speaker
um impactful.
Potluck Segment: Eric on 'Kim's Convenience'
00:08:14
Speaker
like Never in a video game have I been like jumping on my own negative thoughts to get to the ledge that I need to get to that's over a pit of spikes.
00:08:28
Speaker
um It's just just like some amazing situations that are a really artistic metaphor for but struggling with your own demons and negative thoughts and overcoming adversity. So lovely, lovely game.
00:08:46
Speaker
um
00:08:49
Speaker
For me, they they don't come around that often. so
00:08:55
Speaker
So we're coming to a potluck.
00:08:59
Speaker
Do you want to bring yours first? Hunter, I'd love to start us off in this potluck. I am bringing today a TV show that I think I've talked with you about, but to the best of my knowledge, I've never brought it to this show.
00:09:12
Speaker
It's called Kim's Convenience. Oh, yes. I've heard of this, yeah. and you Have you ever seen it? I've seen like a couple episodes.
00:09:24
Speaker
Okay, I think the show is absolutely hilarious and phenomenal and like kind of opens up a different cultural view. It is a 20-minute comedy ah show that is set inside of almost entirely within a convenience store run by the Kim family in Toronto.
00:09:50
Speaker
So the main characters are Mr. Kim and Mrs. Kim.
00:09:56
Speaker
who have, they're immigrants from Korea to Canada, and they're two children, one who's just turning 20, her name is Janet.
00:10:07
Speaker
She's a photography student at a local college, and her older brother, whose name is Jung, and he is a um he works at a local,
00:10:22
Speaker
Rent-A-Car place. Oh, yeah. and he he eventually kind of moves up the ranks. And his best friend um from childhood and also his roommate is a guy who who goes by the nickname in the show, Kim Chi.
00:10:41
Speaker
And it's about experience of the Kim family, Mr. and Mrs. Kim. in their store and then with their kids. um And I am currently re-watching it. And as I've been re-watching it, i think this I think this is only the second, but maybe it's the third time I'm watching it.
00:11:02
Speaker
I'm just continually laughing and just being reminded of how much joy this show gave me and how it how it I think it does ah a better job, and this is coming from yeah my own personal experience, right? But it does a better job of kind of introducing me at least to a different
00:11:26
Speaker
culture um and a different i know group of primary characters than many of the other shows I like to watch. right yeah it's it's It's almost an entirely Asian cast, um or it's primarily at least.
00:11:43
Speaker
um Yeah, and it's very funny. So that's what I'm bringing. That's my summary. and That was not a little bit of my went off on tangents.
00:11:55
Speaker
okay but When did you first...
00:12:01
Speaker
Start watching Kim's Convenience. Yeah, I think at first saw this show in 2019, 2018, 2019. So I was living in Chicago at the time. um And I think it might have been recommended to me. I think this is it. Yeah, it's um it's a netflix it's on Netflix.
00:12:19
Speaker
It's not a Netflix show, but it's on Netflix. um It was recommended to me, I think, by one of my by a friend there who korean
00:12:30
Speaker
It's like this is not my experience, but it's pretty, it does a pretty good job of telling it. And and there are some issues with the show from what I've done, some reading about and the way that kind of it came to an end. But I've been, I'm rewatching and I'm on the first, just most of the way through season two so far.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:55
Speaker
the If you haven't seen this show um and you're trying to figure out, okay, do I know an actor in this show? The person you would know is Jung, who's played by Simu Liu, who actually, to my best knowledge, I don't think he's actually...
00:13:16
Speaker
I don't know if he's actually Korean. Uh-huh. Yeah, he's Chinese. um But he's best known for being in Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Yes, I knew I'd seen him somewhere before. Yeah. He's he's a phenomenal actor. this He was in the show well before it.
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah. He's a Canadian actor. like Because I remember i I watched a few episodes of that show. And then when Shang-Chi came out, i watched it and I was like, that guy, I know him from somewhere.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah. and One of the really...
00:13:53
Speaker
There are a couple parts of the show that really stick out to me. um the the most The best part of it is the relationships in the show. So at least through the first two seasons, and and I think it might be resolved at the end of the second or kind of into the third, Jung does not speak with Mr. Kim, his dad.
00:14:13
Speaker
um They had a ah falling out when they who was much younger. um He has a juvenile record. Yeah.
00:14:23
Speaker
Mr. Kim does not talk with him. He does not talk with his dad. And there's clearly both pain like pain for both of them and sadness that they don't talk to each other. um Because they're both very close with the rest of their family.
00:14:36
Speaker
And Kim Chi hangs out with Mr. Kim sometimes. And you can start to see it in this in the first two seasons. like the The world's kind of coming back together.
00:14:49
Speaker
um There's some of that great parts of being kids of parents, which I'm sure most people, at least millennials, can share experience with. of um Oh, your parent's kind of thinking about throwing something out that they don't need. And you're like, oh my goodness, wow, you have a second ref freeer freezer? like I want that freezer. like like A lot of hand-me-down type situations that... like Mr. Kim doesn't realize that though Jung is the one ending up with them or like Jung and Kim Chi's apartment is just terrible. Like he doesn't even have a door and like the bathroom's a problem and like there's all these problems with it.
00:15:29
Speaker
And like Mr. Kim shows up at one time at one point to help Kim Chi because Kim Chi was going to ask for tools because Janet said, hey, you should ask for tools to Jung and Jung's like, well, I'm not going to talk with dad. Kim Chi, you do it.
00:15:42
Speaker
Kim Chi went to talk with him and and Mr. Kim, who did not know that at that point that Jung and Kim Chi were living together, went with Kim Chi to hit their apartment when Jung wasn't there and, like, is helping him fix all the things and, like,
00:15:59
Speaker
uh kimchi's like how do you do this and and mr john and mr kim's like watching a youtube video he's like you said you knew how to do it he's like i do i'm just remembering and trying to see if they do it the same way i do it uh he's like they're talking about a plumbing thing like yes find the ball cock and uh put it and like he's just laughing and mr kim does not get why he's laughing and then like kimchi had to explain he's like oh that is funny uh and and then Mr. Kim realizes that it's Jung's apartment because he's like clicks on one of the computers and he sees pictures of Jung and Janet and Mrs. Kim.
00:16:38
Speaker
And then he accidentally takes a like a picture of himself ah on Jung's computer and that ends up in like the screensaver. So when Jung gets home later, he sees the picture of Mr. Kim, like totally surprised, like,
00:16:55
Speaker
and like And that's that's a relationship that that kind of sticks out to me. I've got a great relationship with my dad, but I still like that paternal relationship. i just It's awesome seeing that relationship. but But each of the, you could put any of the, probably the eight main characters in just the two of them on a scene in a scene, and like you're going to have some really amazing interactions. And the heart of the show is the Kim family.
00:17:26
Speaker
And so a lot of the tension exists between members of the family or within the family like or or between a member of the family and somebody else.
00:17:40
Speaker
But the resolution like impacts the entire family or like the entire family is a part of it. it's It's this really sweet relational thing um that...
00:17:56
Speaker
continues to just move towards ah tighter knit family. you know And then you also have some of the beautiful pieces. Mrs. Kim is a big member of her church.
00:18:09
Speaker
And it's so funny seeing their interaction with their pastors and some of the theology in the show is actually kind of pretty cool. um But that was one of the main things. And that is, I think, again, the strongest part of the show.
00:18:24
Speaker
um And I actually now have two more. Another one is the the kind of the cold opens to each episode. get those Those first two minutes. Most of the time they don't relate to the show at all.
00:18:37
Speaker
But they are so funny. don't even know if I can... Let's if I can pull up an episode just to... I'm looking up Shang-Chi and the Ten Rings, Shang-Chi and Ten.
00:18:57
Speaker
Sorry, hold on.
00:19:05
Speaker
The openings of the shows are are very funny. They do a great job of drawing in right immediately. And then you're just laughing and seeing some of the ridiculous interactions that can happen inside of a convenience store. And oh they're almost and always about Mr. Kim. He very much feels like the main character of the show. Mm-hmm.
00:19:30
Speaker
And then the the third piece that I really like, and and this is not something I normally pay attention to, um but is the transitions. So the transitions between scenes, right it's not just like a black and then the new scene starts.
00:19:48
Speaker
They have just B-roll of Toronto. Like there's people skateboarding. There's always, but there's, there's people walking down the street. It's it's always something different.
00:19:59
Speaker
Um, and there's usually three or four scenes like just as part of it and like, and it always is just so real. Like it's the type of thing that as you're watching, you're like, Oh, none of it feels fake at all. Like none of it feels staged. None of it. mean, I really think they just had people just driving around filming life in Toronto as much as anything else.
00:20:21
Speaker
And
00:20:24
Speaker
it feels, mean, just like living in any city. and And that's just something that adds to the realism of the show and makes it feel like if you were to walk into a convenience store, like you might bump into Mr. Kim or Mrs. Kim and be just right into the store yourself.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:54
Speaker
Yeah, because sometimes when you watch like comedy shows, especially if you binge it, you there' this this I don't know if this happens to you, but I have this weird experience where like i i almost get so wrapped up in the world of 30-second jokes like every 30 seconds.
00:21:19
Speaker
It becomes its own like little... I feel like I'm in a fish tank or if I watch it for too long. But that's a nice way to like ah prevent ah the fish tank feeling.
00:21:37
Speaker
Prevent the fish shank. So, yeah. So, I mean, I love Parks and Rec. I love New Girl. I love The Office. I love Community. I love the good place Chuck. I love The Good Place. Right.
00:21:50
Speaker
These are ah combination of 20 and 40 minute app episode type shows. Kimmy Schmidt. um They're hilarious, but it's very hard to imagine yourself in the story. You do, because you when you watch it, but like if you kind of take a step back, it's like,
00:22:06
Speaker
i don't see how i could enter you like I don't see how I could enter Seinfeld. like you know maybe Maybe I'd be a person sitting at a booth in the coffee you know or in the in the restaurant. you know like they they Part of what makes them so good is they've created their own little worlds that are insular and that you can feel like an insider in. But and if you take a step back, you're like, yeah, that's not...
00:22:31
Speaker
what life is like and it's not something that's even approachable. Um,
00:22:39
Speaker
And this isn't the same. They they they don't feel like caricatures as as characters, right? They're not the the absolutely insane you know combination of Leslie Knopes and Andy Dwyer's and April Ludgate's.
00:22:52
Speaker
We're talking about Parks and Rec or the Michael Scotts and Dwight Schrute's. The people that help like these shows exist and kind of run. that they're just It's almost like having a ah show of... and this is you know of the characters that you like in a show that are a family, you know, like imagine it a version of the office that was about, that wasn't just, yeah that was like focused on a space that had, um, Jim and Pam, like, and their parents or their family.
00:23:29
Speaker
you know, with fun secondary characters that are crazy, but like it's really just about that family, like figuring out what does it look like to be a family and grow together and love each other and be themselves to their fullest ability.
00:23:56
Speaker
Was there anything that
00:24:01
Speaker
surprised you or that made you, I guess, think deeper about something that you hadn't thought before rather than just, you know, surprised you for humor.
00:24:13
Speaker
This is the type of show that doesn't seem like on a first watch, like it has a deeper level. Um,
00:24:24
Speaker
but I know it does. And
00:24:32
Speaker
I'm trying to think, Hunter, between the time I first watched it and the time I watch it now, I've had a ah ah lot more experiences with...
00:24:43
Speaker
with um you know with newer immigrants um you know her families who have more recently moved to the united states and you know we're a country of immigrants mean this is happening in canada so obviously there's that's purposeful and that's you know where was shot but
00:25:06
Speaker
But I'm third generation American in the sense of you have to go back to my great grandparents. like They're the ones that moved to the country. And so I'm trying to think about
00:25:22
Speaker
how I have maybe be grown um and can see things differently and how this show has helped me. um I don't know about you, but sometimes the things that stick in my brain in life that I kind of go back to are just ridiculous.
00:25:43
Speaker
You're like, I don't know why that was a pivotal moment. like I don't know why that phrasing or that piece. um And there is something about the show that is that for me um not for an entire immigrant experience because that's i'm not going to try and force that on the show and it's not trying to push that down somebody's throat or anything um but there is an episode where mr kim buys a a new tv and ah flat screen and their old tv which is one of those old tube tube tvs
00:26:15
Speaker
Mrs. Kim gives to the church to give to a newly arrived refugee or immigrant family. And Mr. Kim's like was having this conversation Mrs. Kim. And she's like, yeah, I donated the old TV. I gave it away. Mr. Kim's like, why did you not tell me? And she's like, well, we have a new TV. And he's like, yeah, but do you remember Y2K?
00:26:38
Speaker
i was yeah At that time, i was I was so afraid that, like like everybody else, like that,
00:26:46
Speaker
about what would happen to our money that I i took $3,000 and put it in the back of that TV. And Mrs. Kim's like, why did you do that? he said, it was Y2K.
00:26:57
Speaker
ah like And so in the next scene,
00:27:04
Speaker
they go... To the house of the family. no. And it's a Muslim family that has recently arrived in the United States.
00:27:17
Speaker
And you can see the family all sitting in in their in their room watching the TV and like hitting it every couple times because it gets fuzzy. and and And here's where I'm going to make a pause.
00:27:28
Speaker
um Because that scene... um
00:27:34
Speaker
sticks in my mind because when I was a young child, my family, my my mom was part of a group of people from our church and and a sister church that welcomed a Somali family to our area.
00:27:48
Speaker
um And i was I was very young when this happened. I'm not a toddler, like old enough to remember, but still pretty young. um and And I remember i remember the the name of the the father in this family and remember interacting with them and going to their apartment after they'd arrived.
00:28:06
Speaker
And that is the experience I remember, sitting on a couch watching TV because we couldn't speak each other to each other because we didn't know the same language. And it felt like there are so many gaps to prevent us from...
00:28:26
Speaker
being in communication to be able to, preventing us from being able to be friends or, um I don't know, like have ah have a real relationship. And it's scary. It was scary. Not because I was afraid of the people, just but because of just like, i didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say. i didn't know how to act.
00:28:43
Speaker
And that scene... like portrays it so well.
00:28:51
Speaker
I'm going to finish sharing about the story and then I'll start sharing about what happened in the scene. And then I'll share a little bit about what kind of where I'm at now. Because I'm in a different space than I was. Like my experience is different than that now.
00:29:03
Speaker
But the scene continues. Mr. Kim goes to fix the TV and they're so grateful. He says, oh, like like this needs to be, me pick it up. He picks up this huge see tube TV and he starts walking around. He's trying to figure out where to bring it. He's like, oh I'm fixing the bathroom.
00:29:20
Speaker
You're like, why why are you going to the bathroom? if He's like, this is just, you know, I need some privacy. So he's in the bathroom trying to open the back of his TV. Oh, no. And Mrs. Kim's like, they're like trying to figure out what to do. and they're like, ah the pastor who's there like starts playing Pictionary, not Pictionary,
00:29:43
Speaker
um starts playing, what's the name of the, Charades. The pastor starts playing charades with this family as Mrs. Kim like,
00:29:54
Speaker
ah tries to go into the bathroom. She's like, let me just check on him because it's been fairly been a while, like 10-15 minutes. And then she's asked to shimmy into the bathroom because there's no space.
00:30:06
Speaker
She's like, why are you taking so long? he's like, I got I just don't know to put the back of the TV
00:30:13
Speaker
on. He puts the back of the TV on. He brings it out. Mrs. Kim takes the $3,000.
00:30:19
Speaker
And he puts it down and they're like, oh, thank you so much.
00:30:27
Speaker
And...
00:30:30
Speaker
And like they're about just to leave, Mrs. Kim and Mr. Kim. Even though they're offered tea, they're offered that they they're such graciousness. And then the mother of this family like has two of her kids standing her in front of her and says, thank you so much.
00:30:43
Speaker
And Mrs. Kim sees that, and and her heart's moved. and she's And she says, here, Pastor Nina, like this is this is for this family and other families.
00:30:55
Speaker
And she hands her... the envelope with all $3,000. um And Mr. Kim's like, why are you doing that? And and Mrs. Kim says, well, you bought this TV, the other TV, like without talking to me, like because you wanted to. like This is what my heart's telling me to do.
00:31:13
Speaker
um And that's how Mrs. Kim is as a whole. and But and Mr. Kim is too. He just like doesn't want to pretend. He pretends not to be. Yeah. And like you can just and miss and Pastor Nina gets it and opens. She's like, oh, my goodness.
00:31:30
Speaker
ah Wow. OK. The impact of this will be pretty big. And they kind of like kind of do this awkward bow that you kind of do when you don't know how to talk to each other in different languages.
00:31:43
Speaker
And then back out of the room. The father or an uncle in this family turns the TV on and you hear go, poof, sparks fly out in the back. The screen goes blank.
00:31:57
Speaker
And the pastor's like, well, I guess it's back to charades. Yeah.
00:32:05
Speaker
Oh, man. And that scene, does such a good job of community of taking a situation that is so profound and impactful and just challenging and beautiful and awkward. Yeah. It imbues it or infuses it with just so much humor that allow you to watch it and and and see that it's awkward, but not feel that internal tension um and to be able to laugh like throughout it, but is communicating something that is still so deep.
00:32:41
Speaker
um right and because I get to get to often hear stories of of families in the United States connecting with with immigrant families and and being in those rooms like I was as a kid and feeling awkward um and like trying to play Pictionary when really she'd probably just sit and not say anything but like be together and try to you know maybe use use a um use a phone to try and communicate. or you know you could do Pictionary, whatever. It's good for the kids or whatever it might be.
00:33:12
Speaker
um The coolest thing is when you choose to enter into those relationships and stick it out, what was often a awkward first interaction,
00:33:31
Speaker
becomes a lifelong friendship or even close to a familial relationship. And while it's so easy to, yeah well, for whatever reason, sitting on the couch watching a tube tv is you know in the and the house in the apartment of an immigrant is like a core memory for me that is replicated in this show.
00:33:52
Speaker
um Like it it's the show is able to introduce individuals to different cultures, to an immigrant experience in a way that is kind of aligned with how our culture is used to like in a way that is aligned with.
00:34:17
Speaker
a cultural norm. Um, and so maybe that's the thing I like about this show that it does so well is it takes a medium and an approach that is very common and chooses to tell a story or a different story, um, even using some of many of the same elements.
00:34:37
Speaker
Um, but to open up, our perspective, or at least my perspective. um but Even if it's s just to show that there are so many people that can be funny, you know, and there's so many relationships and interactions that I will never hear and never understand. It doesn't matter if they're real or not, but that they are other people's experiences.
00:35:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And I like that. for that I think that show does it really well. And oh my goodness, it is funny. It is so funny. Thank you for sharing.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah. I think think comedy is one of the best ways to trick people or yourself into thinking twice about things that you you are...
00:35:43
Speaker
so sure about or so against or things that you just don't want to think about because they're too heavy comedy can get you get you into those things yeah agreed watch it do it do it now Netflix watch Kim's Convenience you'll be glad you did
00:36:11
Speaker
Hunter, what is it that you're bringing
Potluck Segment: Hunter on 'Leaf by Niggle'
00:36:13
Speaker
to us today? I know it has a very different feel than what I just brought. and But tell me what it is. Well, I have brought Leaf by Nagel, which is a short story J.R.R. Tolkien. And...
00:36:31
Speaker
j r r tokien
00:36:35
Speaker
and I think the best way to introduce it would be for me to read just like the first couple paragraphs, because he introduces it better than i could.
00:36:50
Speaker
introduces us Niggle.
00:36:55
Speaker
There once was a little man called Niggle who had a long journey to make. He did not want to go. Indeed, the whole idea was distasteful to him, but he could not get out of it.
00:37:09
Speaker
He knew he would have to start some time, but he did not hurry with his preparations. Niggle was a painter, not a very successful one, partly because he had many other things to do.
00:37:21
Speaker
Most of these things he thought were a nuisance, but he did them fairly well, when he could not get out of them, which, in his opinion, was far too often. The laws in his country were rather strict.
00:37:33
Speaker
There were other hindrances, too. For one thing, he was sometimes just idle and did nothing at all. For another, he was kind-hearted, in a way. You know the sort of kind heart.
00:37:45
Speaker
It made him uncomfortable more often than it made him do anything, and even when he did anything, it did not prevent him from grumbling, losing his temper, and swearing, mostly to himself.
00:37:56
Speaker
All the same, it did land him in a good many odd jobs for his neighbor, Mr. Parrish, a man with a lame leg. Occasionally, he even helped other people from further off, if they came and asked him to.
00:38:09
Speaker
Also, now and again, he remembered his journey and began to pack a few things in an ineffectual way. At such times, he did not paint very much. He had a number of pictures on hand, most of them were too large and ambitious for his skill.
00:38:25
Speaker
He was the sort of painter who could paint leaves better than trees. He used to spend a long time on a single leaf, trying to catch its shape and its sheen and the glistening of dew drops on its edges.
00:38:38
Speaker
Yet, he wanted to paint a whole tree, with all of its leaves in the same style, and all of them different.
00:38:47
Speaker
So, uh, as you heard, Niggle's a painter, uh, and I'm going to give like a short summary. Um, if I, but I just want to encourage you to read it.
00:38:59
Speaker
If you're listening, it's, it's quite short. You could probably find it with quick, um, search. Um, it's, it's like 20 pages long, so you could read it in one sitting.
00:39:12
Speaker
Um, Lovely little short story. But Niggle is a painter. He loves painting leaves and he gets this idea idea to paint a big tree. And he spends his whole life trying to work on this tree.
00:39:26
Speaker
um But he's always getting interrupted Um, there's his neighbor, Mr. Parrish, who's always critical of, uh, Niggle's gardening because Niggle neglects his garden and Parrish is a very good gardener.
00:39:43
Speaker
So Parrish comes over to his house. Parrish doesn't care about painting at all. they'll like ask him to do things for him because Parrish has a lame leg. Um, and, uh,
00:39:55
Speaker
you know, he gets visitors and things, but he always wants to keep working on his painting, but he can't finish it because he keeps adding leaves. um And if you know anything about Tolkien,
00:40:10
Speaker
Niggle is is definitely from Tolkien's own heart. um Tolkien spent, you know, most of his life working on The Lord of the Rings, um and thank God he finished it.
00:40:22
Speaker
But the story is sort of, it's, it's also, it's not really, but it's not really biographical at all because, um, and it's not really an allegory either because he mentions the beginning that he's going to take this journey.
00:40:39
Speaker
And so what happens is Niggle, um, he has to like ride to town to like ask the builders to fix Parrish's roof. Um,
00:40:52
Speaker
Um, and on the way back, he like gets a cold and then they come for him to take him on his journey and he can't finish his painting. And he's like, oh, it's, it's not finished.
00:41:04
Speaker
And they're like, oh, whatever. They'll probably use it to patch Parrish's, house. Um, and, and then he like, it goes on this journey and it gets, it's this sort of like surreal kind of,
00:41:20
Speaker
trip and he hears these two voices talking about him and I'm trying to explain it without spoiling too much but one voice is rather generous towards Niggle and says oh well you know he ah did you ever see any of his leaves they were really quite nice leaves and then the second voice is like ah but he was always swearing to himself and like never wanted to do anything for his neighbors and um The first always says, well, you know, he did do them, even though he wasn't happy and his neighbor, you know, i' never paid any attention to his painting or anything.
00:41:58
Speaker
um But anyway, he gets like sent to a workhouse and it's all very surreal until he sort of like basically dies. And then he comes out and they they put him on a train. Yeah.
00:42:14
Speaker
And he comes out into this country and it's his, he's like, he doesn't recognize it at first, but then it seems really familiar and he comes upon this tree and it's his tree.
00:42:32
Speaker
But Tolkien says, tree in what way? The tree that he was painting. when he was, you know, quote-unquote alive. Tolkien never really says that this is heaven, but that's kind of like what is inferred from the way he describes it.
00:42:49
Speaker
Before him stood the tree, his tree, finished. If you could say that of a tree that was alive, its leaves opening, its branches growing and bending in the wind that Niggle had so often felt or guessed and had so often failed to catch.
00:43:06
Speaker
He gazed at the tree, and slowly he lifted his arms and opened them wide. It's a gift, he said. He was referring to his art and also to the result, but he was using the word quite literally.
00:43:25
Speaker
And what becomes clear is that it's not the tree as he painted it, it's the tree as he imagined it. That when he was on earth, all he had were paints, canvases.
00:43:41
Speaker
But here, it's his tree that he imagined. um this This gift of his art.
00:43:51
Speaker
And, uh, then later on Parrish comes and he helps, helps Niggle. His tree is finished, but there's some trees in a forest sort of farther away that needs some work. And, and Niggle's like, well, actually i need a gardener, like someone who actually knows about gardening. Cause these are like real trees.
00:44:09
Speaker
And then Parrish shows up and, um, they sort of work together to complete all the trees. Um, And there's a lovely little part at the end where he shows why it's called Leaf by Nagle.
00:44:25
Speaker
Basically, Nagle's house burns down and um one of the like guys from the town like saves a leaf that Nagle made and puts it in a museum in the town and it's labeled Leaf by Nagle.
00:44:46
Speaker
But that's kind of an overall... um summary of the story. we all know that you're a lover of Tolkien.
00:45:03
Speaker
I am too, but if anybody's listened to the show, they've heard Tolkien brought up quite a few times.
00:45:11
Speaker
And this sounds like a truly amazing story. I'm really interested reading it based on what you just shared. What is so beautiful about it? Or what is what is it that...
00:45:22
Speaker
Is there anything outside of the story itself? like In the way it's written? in Is it the visuals of it? Is it... you know the The having to think while you read it to try and figure out what's going on? what What is it that kind of sets it apart from other short stories?
00:45:42
Speaker
Well...
00:45:45
Speaker
I don't know if there's anything particularly remarkable about it just as a short story. For me, it has like quite a deep meaning. Um, I mean, it's good.
00:45:59
Speaker
There's a lot of good stories out there. Um, but for me in particular, as someone who is, ah
00:46:10
Speaker
He's a super fan of Tolkien and his work and has tried to go go out of my way to read most of what he's written.
00:46:22
Speaker
um
00:46:33
Speaker
i think I think every artist or writer at some point writes a story about art and practicing art.
00:46:43
Speaker
And, ah you know, they're all usually pretty good. But this is the first one i've I've read. I think what makes it unique is that Tolkien acknowledges that the art that we're making now you know, with paints and canvases or a pencil and paper or ah word processor and a keyboard,
00:47:09
Speaker
um that art is really... A glimpse. um You know, he says, ah one of the voices says, well, not one of the voices, someone that they meet in the fully realized image of the painting says it was only a glimpse, but you might have caught the glimpse if you had ever thought it worthwhile to try.
00:47:41
Speaker
And so I've been thinking a lot about how um
00:47:49
Speaker
some of my my favorite pieces of art, as much as I love them and as as much as I admire them and recognize the skill and the dedication and the miracle it took for them to exist, they they still never fully satisfy my imagination or what I'm longing for.
00:48:13
Speaker
I still want to read them again. You know, I still want It's not enough. I need something else. And that's because, and and this, you know, this has to do very much with my own worldview and, um, my belief in, in a heaven, in an eternity.
00:48:33
Speaker
Um, that's because that, tools that we're using paint and canvas paper and pencil whatever it is are are just ways that we're trying to express something that exists in eternity a gift that we're trying to give um from our imaginations
00:49:00
Speaker
yeah and i just think you know for for talking to like write a little short, write write a story about it, to admit it, and, you know, to think of all of the hours that he poured over Lord of the Rings, and all of the time that he spent, you know,
00:49:21
Speaker
Um, you could say, you know, it wasn't all work for him, you know, but like when you have a big project like that, you know, that it takes work, you know, even though it is kind of fun, like it's a lot of work, so much work.
00:49:35
Speaker
Um, so much. And it was his entire life. And he basically admits in this story that it's just a glimpse.
00:49:49
Speaker
And there's a ah line that, um,
00:49:54
Speaker
Niggle says to Parrish, because Parrish says, oh I'm sorry that I never realized what you're doing. is This tree is beautiful. I never saw it you know when it was just canvas and paint.
00:50:07
Speaker
And Niggle says, what does it matter? We have lived and worked together now. Things might have been different, but they could not have been better. Hmm.
00:50:27
Speaker
got like one more thing I could say. yeah have any questions or anything?
00:50:36
Speaker
Doing a lot of reflecting as you're sharing these, these words, Hunter.
00:50:45
Speaker
It's what you're saying and, and, and how Tolkien wrote it.
00:50:57
Speaker
it connects with, with my brain in terms of some pretty deep thoughts and some of the why's behind things and behind why do things and my goals and, um, where my own failings are.
00:51:13
Speaker
and so it's hard to, some things that aren't, aren't for this podcast. Um, and so it's hard communicate,
00:51:30
Speaker
And I think that's one of the strengths of of so much of Tolkien's writing and and of many of the great authors and great artists out there is they're able to communicate meaning that is more than visual or mental or emotional or physical. it is a deeply spiritual meaning that includes all of these other pieces as well.
00:51:53
Speaker
And
00:51:57
Speaker
to use the image of a tree...
00:52:02
Speaker
is
00:52:06
Speaker
a really beautiful image to show or to, to, to focus on. In fact, I love trees. Um,
00:52:19
Speaker
the, the story of
00:52:23
Speaker
the bible is full of stories of trees too it's actually and that's one of the and i'm sure this is in tolkien's mind as he's writing this and as he chose what he chose um right the tree in genesis um this tree throughout the old testament the next big tree to think about is is the cross right?
00:52:47
Speaker
The tree that was, the bu was cut down and became the cross. And then the the tree of life back in revelation, um again, there's other trees throughout. Um,
00:53:07
Speaker
how much do you need to be paying attention to figure out that it's that he, he dies. Like, is it, can you like share a little bit about that? Cause it's, my brain is immediately going to, this is my own way. I think of like, okay, like,
00:53:26
Speaker
after this working space, like he's dead and in heaven and now his neighbor's there with him. um Interesting. you know And the things that weren't fully realized are now realized.
00:53:39
Speaker
And that's kind of how you've shared it with me and I haven't read this, but is that actually like, would another reader be left with the same Yeah, I think so. I think it's pretty hard to, you know, he doesn't come right to and say it.
00:53:57
Speaker
And it's kind of surreal in the way that does it. But it's very clear that the voices are judging him, you know, weighing his actions and his. um And so, you know, him working in the house is sort of like they're not exactly their punishment, but sort of like.
00:54:17
Speaker
a lesson that he needs to learn. They don't quite say why. i think it might come from, Tolkien was Catholic, so there might be some inspirations from purgatory in there, but um and which I don't really know much about.
00:54:32
Speaker
But Tolkien is also a a writer and with a very active imagination and um I don't think that it's really an allegory. I think for him, it was just kind of a moment of vision and that's how he imagined it.
00:54:49
Speaker
And he's happy to just leave it. surreal and strange as it is and it works um like it's pretty clear there's like a pretty clear division between niggles life normal life you know that's interrupted by tea time and parish and he's just painting with paint canvas and then his afterlife um where he sees his painting realized and there's more country eventually, um more country to explore once he's finished with the forest around the tree.
00:55:24
Speaker
And Parrish also says, I have to wait for my wife. So I think there's plenty there. I don't think there's any way to really interpret it otherwise. I love it when stories and any type of art or story you're interacting with doesn't tell you, makes it clear to you. Like the showing, not telling approach.
00:55:49
Speaker
think b you have to do a little bit of work to to meet me here. Yeah. Well, like that quote that I shared, uh, you know, it was only a glimpse, but you might've caught the glimpse if you had ever thought it worthwhile to try.
00:56:10
Speaker
Because as you know some of my favorite writing is not the most accessible. Um, and
00:56:21
Speaker
I'm not saying that that it's good because it's inaccessible. That's not what I'm saying. ah so Some of my other favorite writing is written for children, um you know, like E.B. White.
00:56:33
Speaker
um But,
00:56:39
Speaker
but you know you There are writers who who really reward you. Virginia Woolf really rewards you for putting in the work. Shakespeare, so rewarding.
00:56:50
Speaker
And it's so hard. It's like learning ah another language. But when you do, I mean, it just...
00:56:59
Speaker
It's such a beautiful vision, but you have to think that it's worthwhile to try. You have to put some work in. Yeah. Well, Hunter, I'm sure you have a ah thought on how to close us out on the shaping of this book, this story in your life.
00:57:19
Speaker
So the last thing I'd like to share is have been thinking a lot about greatness, the way that we talk about art and artists, writers, um we say, oh, they're so great.
00:57:39
Speaker
They're great authors, the great books. And I think most of the time it's harmless. We're just trying to express how much we love it, you know.
00:57:53
Speaker
um But there is also a very real, like, construct of greatness that I have struggled with, um, not just in the context of like reading a quote unquote great book and not liking it, but also in the context of trying to make great art.
00:58:14
Speaker
Like, cause anyone who sits down to write a book, I have a hard time believing that at least, you know, like the thought about, posterity and and how great their writing might be or whatever that has to go through their mind at some point it it goes it's gone through my mind um and i think everyone thinks about it and then you realize just how hard and ridiculous writing is and you're like just never mind about that but um
00:58:47
Speaker
it's
00:58:51
Speaker
I think i'm I'm in a place now where I firmly believe that there are no great men. That we just describe greatness to things. And something that is important to me about this story is that, yes, one leaf of Niggles is saved and put in the town museum.
00:59:11
Speaker
But the museum burned down and no one remembers the leaf. And... So many of the books, I'm just going to talk about books because that's mainly what I know.
00:59:25
Speaker
that So many the books that we venerate are venerated because someone somewhere decided, hey, everyone should read this.
00:59:37
Speaker
And a lot of those books are pretty good. The ones that have lasted, like, usually they last for a good reason. But for every one great book, there's thousands of other books that just haven't been read as much or haven't been appreciated as much.
00:59:52
Speaker
That's kind of like what Moby Dick was like. There was some professor who read it and he's like, wow, this is a great book. And then it became Moby Dick. And... and I would struggle with this because if if this world is all that there is, if the whatever claim that we can that a book can get on this side of glory, if this is all there is, is if this is if this is the only authority on how good your book is,
01:00:27
Speaker
That's really depressing. If, yeah you know, because like you have no control, you have no control who tells your story. Um,
01:00:40
Speaker
and quite frankly, people it wrong all the time. Um, and
01:00:48
Speaker
quite frankly people get it wrong all the time um
01:00:56
Speaker
and And if you want proof of that, like, just look how much people disagree about how good books are. So, like, for me, it's really important that, you know, the the ultimate,
01:01:14
Speaker
um you know, judge of work and the ultimate fulfillment of a work of art or any he book that I'm writing is not what people say about it or however many copies it sells or what it achieves after my lifetime or if it achieves anything at all.
01:01:36
Speaker
um But just that it exists. It's a gift. And
01:01:45
Speaker
and ah It's also important to me that at the end of this story, you know, Niggle and Parrish are just laughing together, like enjoying a good time.
01:01:57
Speaker
And that, you know, I struggle like playing guitar sometimes if there's like a point where I have a chance to have like a solo or have something. I want it, I want it to be perfect. I want it to be like some of the great solos that I remember, or just at least a little bit, you know, just give a little taste or something and I'll mess up and it won't be right. And ill I just feel so much.
01:02:21
Speaker
It's so easy to feel so much pressure, even though I'm performing on such a small stage, like, you know, I'm not, and to put so much pressure on myself, but,
01:02:36
Speaker
But believing and and realizing that, you know, this life in the grand scheme of things, in the focus of eternity, doesn't really matter that much.
01:02:53
Speaker
not that we Not that it doesn't matter at all, but that you know it's not the final say. It it takes the pressure off. Because art is fun. Art is for joy. It's it's not you know to make great things. it's art is it's ah Art is art. can be whatever it wants to be.
01:03:20
Speaker
um
01:03:30
Speaker
So often we conflate
01:03:36
Speaker
greatness with popularity. So often we conflate popularity with greatness.
01:03:46
Speaker
And it's truly not. It's not about greatness. Isn't about what's marketed the best.
01:04:01
Speaker
It's much more subjective than that. no While there also are great marketers out there who should be celebrated for their marketing ability.
01:04:14
Speaker
um
01:04:17
Speaker
I always think about it. There's a, a, a, a movie. Um, it doesn't matter what movie it is, but, um, it's about a guy in the national geographic fictional, um, who just takes photos of, of animals and, and, and really just famous photo photos.
01:04:36
Speaker
And there's a scene where he's, he's going to take a photo or, and he doesn't. And somebody asked me like, why didn't you take a photo? He's like, well, some things are truly too beautiful.
01:04:48
Speaker
to share. Um, and
01:04:58
Speaker
some things that are truly beautiful that are shared aren't, don't get the light of day, but it's not about what we think in terms of the final mind.
01:05:15
Speaker
Hmm. You're gonna mumble off. You're making me think big thoughts here. Deep thoughts. I've missed this. Also,
01:05:29
Speaker
forgot how tiring it can be. Yeah. yeah
01:05:36
Speaker
we're out of practice we're out of shape that's true we're on a half marathon since we last talked but haven't uh it's a different type of practice than this is so eric uh i sort of uh went off on a little tangent there and i didn't have a good quote to end this on i shared all the my favorite quotes in niggle uh if you would like to read leaf by niggle you're looking for some ah physical book i recommend the tolkien reader it's a little collection has tree and leaf which is ah an essay called on fairy stories uh leaf by niggle and then it has the homecoming of bjortnoff bjortfilm's son
01:06:26
Speaker
There's a short play and then has farmer Giles of Ham. Also one of my favorites, really entertaining story and also the adventures of Tom Baumdell. So it's a nice little collection of things you might not have read by Tolkien.
01:06:42
Speaker
And with that Tolkien reader, the Tolkien reader. Yeah. I'll find a link to it and put it in the um show notes.
01:06:55
Speaker
And to close this out, I'm going to read a little-known poem from the back of this book in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.
01:07:06
Speaker
And the poem is called Cat. The fat cat on the mat may seem to dream of nice mice that suffice for hen or cream.
01:07:19
Speaker
But he free, maybe, walks in thought, unbowed, proud, where loud, roared and fought, his kin, lean and slim, or deep in den.
01:07:33
Speaker
In the east feasted on beasts and tender men. The giant lion with iron claw and paw and huge ruthless tooth and gory jaw.
01:07:45
Speaker
The pard dark starred fleet upon feet that oft soft from aloft leaps on his meat where woods loom in gloom. Far now they be, fierce and free and tamed is he.
01:08:02
Speaker
But fat cat on the mat, kept as a pet, he does not forget.
01:08:18
Speaker
So