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Raise a Glass to Shane (1953) and The Rider (2017)
32 Plays2 months ago
Eric and Hunter discuss two films that make various Cowboy flavored impressions about violence and manliness.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Raise a Glass'
00:00:00
Speaker
so
00:00:52
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Raise a Glass, the podcast where we talk about the stories and storytellers that shape us. I am Hunter Danson. And I am Eric Lintola.
Excitement for Movie Doubleheader
00:01:08
Speaker
And we are very excited to do a movie double header about Men and horses and westerns. Yeah.
Morning Routines and Rituals
00:01:24
Speaker
But before we get there, what's in your glass, Eric?
00:01:28
Speaker
Today, as this is our our morning edition, um I have in my Wheel of Time inspired Perrin handcrafted coffee mug, a beautiful locally roasted Guatemalan, Guatemalan roast from New City Cafe with it just a little bit of half and half to turn the color to a ah beautiful hazel.
00:01:55
Speaker
Uh-huh. This is my favorite coffee to drink. It's just smooth. It's, it's like, it's not bitter, but it, it still has got a good bite to it. Yeah. Hmm. Nice. Yeah. I drink this every morning. In fact, I pretty much do. Hunter, what is in your glass?
00:02:17
Speaker
Well, uh, I've had my morning coffee already. Um, but usually what I do every morning is I will put milk, whole milk in my coffee mug to just get the last drags of the coffee. And, uh, I'm a, I'm a milkaholic as Eric knows, I drink a lot of milk. So this is my, uh, morning cup of milk after my coffee.
00:02:44
Speaker
Hunter, are you guys still getting the modern day milk man milk? Yeah, we we don't get it every week. Sometimes we pause it. Um, but yeah, we have a milk man, um, that brings milk from a local farm and glass bottles. Um, and it's good. I i really liked the cream line milk. You have to like shake it before you pour it. Cause there's still cream in it. Um, you talk too much like this. People are going to think you live in Vermont, not Connecticut.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't want to tell people too much because everyone goes from Connecticut to Vermont to like see leaves and stuff. I look around.
Balancing Busy Lives
00:03:23
Speaker
I'm like, why why do you need it? Like there's leaves here changing color. You don't have to go to Vermont. Like, but you know, Vermont has the, has the branding, um, that Connecticut does about that branding. Um,
00:03:39
Speaker
um What are you ah ah figuratively raising and and pouring your morning brew for? I have maybe this is the pour I pour out for. It's just I've been in a really busy season life and work and just tired.
00:04:00
Speaker
You know, you get in those season center where you're just exhausted and kind of fatigued with making decisions and just putting out fires and just being. And so um and and this weekend, my my wife and kids are actually on a trip to to see some of my wife's friend,
21 Pilots Concert Experience
00:04:19
Speaker
one of my wife's friends. And so I'm actually pouring out. They left this morning, so I've just I've already missed them so much. um But I'm I'm I'm probably raising the last two having some time in the next couple of days to kind of recenter myself. I just finished a book until my hope is to spend time. And quite a lot of projects I'm working on outside. Nice. Well, neither of those are quite obviously pores and raise a glass, but they're. They're very connected and they're very central to my mind right now. Mm hmm.
00:04:59
Speaker
Hunter, how about you? ah I think my poor is very similar to yours. I just feel pretty disoriented lately. Tired and disoriented and working on book two has been pretty hard. I'm like at a big climax. or Everything is going on. and I feel like I'm like I have to so much of my mental energy is is like taken up with trying to hold the whole series in my head as I'm writing this and that I'm just like vaguely going about everything else that I have to do in my life and just have this thing in the back of my mind and so yeah pouring one out for just disorientation and
00:05:51
Speaker
being tired.
00:05:55
Speaker
I haven't had the best, best habits, but I'm getting, getting there. Um, and I'm raising a glass to 21 pilots and because, uh, my wife and my sister and I went on Saturday night to go see 21 pilots live in Boston. Uh, made the pilgrimage. It's kind of a drive and I, the Boston roads are just.
00:06:24
Speaker
Wow, I didn't know roads could be so bad. But once we got there, we got in, it was like, yeah it's like the tip, like 21 Pilots fans are ah really special because it was a whole stadium.
00:06:39
Speaker
and there's he has multiple songs where there's like 40 second rap breaks and he would just let the audience do the rap break like a 45 second rap break and an audience stayed on time but and and did the whole thing a whole stadium full of people doing these like pretty pretty involved lyrics. um And it was it was it was amazing. Really kind of like the culmination for 21 Pilots fans who've had these songs in their minds for so long and then it all comes together. It's really beautiful. um I don't... I struggled to think of any band that I'd really
00:07:22
Speaker
you know, buy the tickets cause they're not cheap and, and go there, pay for parking and do all that stuff that like, there's not many bands I do that for. And 21 pilots is really worth it for us. So that's great. And shout out to my sister. It was like her first real proper concert. Um, so it was really special to, to share that with her. Um, is she a big 21 pilots fan too? Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:07:50
Speaker
multiple generations, uh, the Danson family, 21 pilots
Introduction to 'Shane'
00:07:56
Speaker
fans. I love it. Hunter, I'm bringing the movie Shane to us today, which is written in 1953 by George Stevens came out about 64 years before the rider, which you're bringing to us today. And it's a story about a gunslinger named Shane. Mm-hmm.
00:08:19
Speaker
who comes down from the mountains during a homesteading period in American history to hang up his gun and become a homesteader on Joe's farm, Joe and Mary Ellen's farm with their little son, Joey.
00:08:42
Speaker
But some things go down. There's some cattle ranchers that are are trying to lay claim to this homesteading ranches. And after a significant amount of time of of not touching his gun, Shane brings out his gun again to confront the evil gunslinger that is brought in by these cattle ranchers to save the day and ride off into the sunset. Yeah. Except it's not a sunset, is it? It's not. He runs off into the night. And that's, and that matters. And this is actually one of the things that, one of the pieces that makes this a really unique among Westerns, right? It is the gunslinger.
00:09:39
Speaker
doesn't want to be a gunslinger. He spends so much of this movie without his gun. And we see in Shane and in all of the characters, all of them. Minus the pal rider, the black vest and the black hat struggles between good and evil.
00:10:04
Speaker
It's not simply good character, bad character, even though we know who the better characters are. It's not as cut and dry as many other Westerns, especially at that time. We can talk about that. But the real reason I had us watch this particular film is not even primarily because I like it, but because this was one of the first
00:10:36
Speaker
films I watched in a, in a, in a course in college, a course called religion and film that ended up changing the way I watch movies.
Impact of 'Shane' on Film Analysis
00:10:52
Speaker
And so I shout out quickly to a grand storyteller and and and teacher of stories, Professor Humphries Brooks. He's now retired from Hamilton College. Hunter, I know you've taken courses with him. I took probably six courses with him over the course of my time at Hamilton um and and he helped change the way I
00:11:15
Speaker
I view movies and the reason why, annoyingly, I'll call things films instead of movies to some people, um of which I think this is considered a film.
00:11:26
Speaker
um
00:11:30
Speaker
It's even hard for me to say this is exactly the way that I see movies and films differently now because it's been 12 years of my life or more in which my approach to the genre of of cinema, that storytelling medium has taken out a new shape. So that's the the way it shaped me. And I'm excited to talk with you about some of the the fun pieces about this historical context in which this movie came out and why why things,
00:12:13
Speaker
as well as to hear your first thoughts on it, because this is the first time you saw this movie, right? Yeah, thank you, Eric. And thank you for suggesting this movie. um I was happy to see you when I took it out of the library, that it's one of the 100 greatest films of the American Film Institute. Our library puts a little sticker on all of them. I love that. And we've been trying to we've been trying to watch all of them. Oh, amazing. The library, we we try and get one of the greatest movies.
00:12:43
Speaker
um You know, they're usually pretty good. Some are better than, you know, we like some better than others, but I really enjoyed this one.
Western Genre Reflections
00:12:51
Speaker
um It's amazing how fresh it feels for a movie, a Western, which is a genre that has really been done a lot.
00:13:04
Speaker
so um Yeah. And I had, I love Westerns. I, I used to watch all of the Clint Eastwood Westerns, um, pale rider and good, the bad and the ugly and, um,
00:13:21
Speaker
all those. And, uh, I also love true grits. One of my favorite ones, uh, the, the old one and the new one, um, especially, but I'd never seen this one and it's.
00:13:37
Speaker
I do think that the Gunslinger trying to hang up his his gun is a bit of a trope, which is maybe because of this movie, I'm not sure specifically, but I do think this this movie does an amazing job, especially for how early it is of portraying Shane and He talks so little about what he is feeling, and yet you can gather from the context and his expressions that like he's he's really struggling.
00:14:09
Speaker
um And he is eventually, you know, forced to take up the gun. Um, again, uh, I don't know. I have a few highlights that I can give for me. Uh, those are my general impressions. yeah ah well before Oh, the setting, the mountains in the background, like, Oh my gosh, that had to be the Tetons or something. That was like.
00:14:35
Speaker
reminded me of, of when I went and saw the Tetons. The setting of both movies we're talking about today are is really stunning. And the, the emphasis on silence, I think Shane does it really well. Um, and I just pulled it up just so I could have a chrono chronology in my mind. Clint Eastwood's earliest movie came out three years after this. So yeah in many ways, like I'm not going to say that this was.
00:15:04
Speaker
the first but it was one of the first and so things that we see as tropes now um might not have been that that point in fact and this is just a couple of pieces of historical in context that diving deep taking on notes from a decade plus ago um actually um let me look at this wait
00:15:32
Speaker
In fact, I first saw this movie 10 years ago, almost to the date. I said 12 years earlier, I meant 10. I watched it on September 24th, 2014.
00:15:44
Speaker
um
00:15:48
Speaker
And actually, I think I watched this movie again. I think that I think that was actually the day I watched it. Yeah, I was unknowingly. You can see here. This is September 24th. That's my most recent 10 years to the day since Weathertop. I stumbled upon a familiar side.
00:16:09
Speaker
I watched it on the, on the 23rd of the first time. Well, so the, the director for this movie, George Stevens, um, about 12 years after this did another movie that in fact, I have not seen, but I, I am embarrassed to say that I haven't seen it. Um, but one that everybody knows about, he he wrote, he directed the movie, the greatest story ever ever told, which is a story about.
00:16:38
Speaker
Jesus's life. Okay. And so as we're watching this movie and we understand some of the pieces of the way George Stevens approached his directing, it's really important or it's really clear that this is an Americanized understanding of Jesus. Um, and, and many many Westerns try to take on that same, same type of trope. Um, the, the,
00:17:09
Speaker
I love this language. This is from my i class. The basic plot line for the perf perfect or preferred American hero um who in some ways follows the messianic storyline is a man of peace who prefers secure the security of home, only leaves home when forced to do so by an outside evil after almost being killed and comes back and stops the evil and saves the day.
00:17:38
Speaker
How many movies follow that
Post-War Themes in 'Shane'
00:17:42
Speaker
piece, right? it's it's This movie hap came out about eight years after World War II. And so it's also important to understand its timing in that context, in that one of the questions of the day was how, as returning veterans, do we enter into a land where we're supposed to be at peace?
00:18:06
Speaker
where the the war that had defined us, the gunslinging that had defined us, is no is is we've now put up our guns. And so you can see that at the beginning of Shane, when he comes down from the mountain, which again, is a very messianic approach, or um one might even argue is approach, similar to Moses in the Bible, coming down with, right, take advantage comes down. And the answer is on the homestead, Joe's homestead, where he's seen as a villain immediately, but then helps keep him safe just by being there. um Comes down in his leathers.
00:18:49
Speaker
and connects with Joey, the little kid. You can see at the beginning, it's every time there's a loud noise or a quick movement, he reaches for his gun, right? His white handled six shooter.
00:19:03
Speaker
But then, yeah while eating a meal with Joe and it and his wife and son, he decides to help him chop down this tree trunk. This huge tree trunk that ah Joe has been fighting with for two years,
00:19:20
Speaker
And I don't know about you, Hunter. That was one of my favorite moments of the entire movie, because I felt like I related to it so deeply. I could imagine the two of I could imagine the two of us. Going out in the backyard, in your backyard or my backyard with axes and hacking at whacking at a tree trunk for an entire day. And then he makes the statement. Sometimes.
00:19:51
Speaker
There ain't nothing to do except your own sweat and muscle. That's what Joe says when his wife is like, hey, why don't you get the why you get your version of technology, your horse team, and pull the stump out? He's like, nah, I've been fighting with this thing for two years. like this is And this is one of the very first spaces we see, what does it look like to be a man in this Western? ah To be a man is to show no fear.
00:20:20
Speaker
To be a man is to do things by your own sweat and muscle. To be a man is to love your wife and to hold on to your wife and kids, but also to hold on to your land. And it would be better to die protecting your land than to leave in cowardice, which I don't necessarily hold to that same argument um in in terms of this particular context of this film. But I think within the American system of the day. Especially coming from a post World War Two approach. Where people were signing up to protect America.
00:21:11
Speaker
Which I'm all for, you know, and and joining World War Two like that's That's where, that's where and when this happens.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you for the the context. Um, it's I'm, I, I, I'm curious to know like, how did this movie hit you? You know, back in 10 years ago.
00:21:46
Speaker
uh you know aside from like the larger should we go there yet or not yeah you can i i don't know how how um encourage you'll leave my my my answer because i don't have too much i i i remember watching this and i remember watching this movie out of context Yeah, in the sense of I don't usually somebody has to give me context and in order for me to remember a movie. And then I'll remember a strikingly large number of things about that movie. But this is one that stuck in my head out of context. And so as I'm looking at this, I'm seeing, oh, the other ones I watched at this time were Ben, her and and yeah know all these others like, OK, that now it's.
00:22:33
Speaker
putting all those but pieces in my brain. So so I can say that it struck me enough that it stayed in my mind and in my so subconscious in a way that that. When I think about Westerns, like this is this is the movie that I'll think about more so than a Clint Eastwood movie, um even though I've seen Clint Eastwood movies and enjoy them. um Yeah.
00:23:02
Speaker
Are there any particular scenes that stuck in your head?
Memorable Scenes in 'Shane'
00:23:07
Speaker
Besides the the stump one, uh, that is a classic scene. In fact, there's a whole episode of Bluey called Stump Day, where it's about how Bluey realizes that all of the work, quote unquote work that the dads are doing, trying to get the stumps out of the lawn is like actually play time for them. I love it. Um, what I remember most is him riding down and then riding out.
00:23:37
Speaker
I remember that descending, as soon as the movie started and he started descending into the valley, I was like, oh my goodness. like I just, this descending followed by the ascending.
00:23:52
Speaker
um And then the visuals, the white gun, the pale leather, like embodying this force of good.
00:24:03
Speaker
Those are the things, so it's it's not even a particular scene. um Of course, as the movie started, and I started watching these scenes, I was like, oh my goodness, yeah, and like, oh yeah, that one. And the guy, the super obnoxious homesteader that plays the harmonica this whole time, or as soon as I saw Stonewall, I was like, man, that guy's gonna... We're a spoiler-filled podcast, so I'm comfortable saying that. Yeah, but...
00:24:33
Speaker
Were there were the specific scenes that stuck out to you?
00:24:38
Speaker
um yeah So some scenes that stuck out to me were just the setting in general, the mountains, of course. um And then.
00:24:55
Speaker
Uh, I thought the, the fight scene in the saloon, the first one was, yeah, the first one where they all, they, they're feeling a pressure from, um, Riker, who is the the cattle rancher who's basically he's trying to run them all off, off the homesteads. Um, and he's so far, they haven't used guns.
00:25:24
Speaker
He's trying to you know, not shed any blood trying to do it legally but legally is you know He's buffaloeing them which is intimidating them beating them like Vaguely having physical threats and the saloon is kind of where all the Rikers henchmen hang out While the homesteaders are working hard and cultivating the land and building their houses there's just all these random guys drinking and I don't know. Just hanging out all day at the saloon.
00:25:55
Speaker
um And the first time that Shane goes to the saloon, he's goes theyre the is attached to the general store. And Shane goes to get work clothes um to change out of his leathers. And he gets work clothes and then he decides to get a soda pop for the kid. And he goes into the saloon and they these guys start eyeing him up. and um here
00:26:28
Speaker
One guy gets a whiskey and like spills it on him. And Shane doesn't really do anything. So they fast forward. Everybody, all the homesteaders get together and go to the general store together to to show solidarity and safety in numbers. And Shane goes into the saloon to refill the soda pop bottle and.
00:26:55
Speaker
He orders two drinks for the guy who threw the whiskey on him. One whiskey for him and then he takes the other one and he spills it on the guy and punches him in the face. And yeah and you know, this is after a fair amount of buffaloeing and stuff, so it's not like it's not unprovoked. It feels kind of righteous for Shane to do this in the movie.
00:27:20
Speaker
um And of course, he's outnumbered. he He handily beats the guy, but then the other guys start joining in. And then Joe stare, it's like, I'm going to go help out because it's so awkward because all the families are in the general side side of the saloon. And there's like, no one knows what to do when the fight starts breaking out. And like, it was interesting because if you've ever seen any kind of like physical altercation in real life, it's incredibly awkward.
00:27:49
Speaker
Uh, and like really weird and really fast is strange. And it, you know, they, they make it dramatic in the movie, but it's still like per retains that very strange awkwardness of the violence. And, um, I thought that was, that was very well done. And it's kind of like a bro moment, you know, Joe and Shane fighting back to back and they win eventually, but that's really the inciting incident for Riker to bring in.
00:28:18
Speaker
the ah gunslinger, Wilson. um
00:28:24
Speaker
And I guess this that kind of leads into the second one for me, which is the when Wilson ah kills Tori.
00:28:39
Speaker
Uh, that whole scene, the the setup, because Wilson is on the, Tori's going to go into the saloon to get, talk about something. Wilson kind of eggs him on and his whole plan is to get Tori to draw first so that Wilson can draw and then shoot him, um, and not have it be. Cause that's legal. Yeah. Cause that's legal. Right. It's self-defense.
00:29:10
Speaker
and um The whole setup of that where you have tori kind of walking in and wilson is just standing on the the porch of the saloon And tori's walking through the mud like picking his way through the mud and he's sort of like repelled by wilson he goes to walk on the porch and wilson kind of Stands the block and then tori is stuck in the mud this whole time so that tori is like below Wilson in the shot the entire time. Yeah, and it's just this really amazing setup where you know exactly what's going to happen but it's there's so much tension you know for so long in this movie yeah this guy's gonna get killed like this is a yeah yeah um and then you know finally when when he shoots and wilson shoots him and torrey just it's just laid out in the mud um and it's really masterful scene um
00:30:06
Speaker
I would say the scene following that the burial scene is, is the emotional pinnacle of the movie um or, or right before it, I think it's between that and, and kind of the second to last scene. Right. Cause it then leads to this, this beautiful scene where he's being buried. And, um, one of the other homesteader family is planning on leaving the valley. Literally has everything packed up to go. Um, and.
00:30:37
Speaker
They're singing Abide With Me the second time we're hearing that song sung over his grave. And there's this harmonica playing this beautiful sad song. And then you see the pan from the pans up from the the homesteaders singing over the song in a cemetery and it just pans right and it keeps panning until it pans into the town. And then the music changes immediately and you zoom in. I think you zoom in and then you hear the Riker and his men talking.
00:31:25
Speaker
And then it comes back and you see the homesteaders house. They're planning on leaving is on fire. And that's when Joe shares this note. Is it Joe or is it Shane? I think I think they both speak, but there's an emotional speech shared and I think Shane adds to it. Right. Joe's the primary like instigator for all of the homesteaders. He's the the leader of that group. But um They then make the decision, hey, we're gonna rebuild this home together. And the homesteaders that are planning on leaving come back, decide to to go back to rebuild that home um and to not let themselves be the Lewis family, to not let themselves be moved from the valley. And it's right after that, an hour and a half, an hour and 35 minutes into this movie, that Shane takes out his guns
00:32:19
Speaker
to be a weapon for the first time since the opening. Right. Yeah.
00:32:30
Speaker
And I got one more. Go for it. That I think could could probably lead us into somewhat discussion of the themes. OK. OK. I think the the other scene for me is is in that same.
00:32:48
Speaker
I don't know if it's directly, I think it's after that when Joe comes back to his ranch and he finds a Riker waiting for him and he's got his, you know, Shane and his wife and his son in the buggy and they come in and Riker's got a bunch of guys surrounding them and they have this kind of They have this discussion um where Rikers is like, you know, i'll um I'm a reasonable man. I'll give you a good price for your home. I'll buy it off you. um and And Joe's like, no, I'm not selling. And Rikers is like, well, if you don't sell, then you're going to die basically um and
Debate on Guns and Violence in 'Shane'
00:33:32
Speaker
threatens him. And they have this like pretty deep discussion about
00:33:36
Speaker
like what is motivating Riker, what it means to be a landowning man in America. um And one of the lines that I wrote down was Riker has talks about how, you know, he came into this country when there was no one there and did a lot of work and fought hard to make this land available. And then the homesteaders come in and get it for free. And this is why record thinks that it all belongs to him because he's done all of the quote unquote work. And Joe is like, well, you know, it wasn't really yours to begin with. Um, uh, and he, he also says, you know, I don't, you know, I don't,
00:34:31
Speaker
I'm not against you believing that you have a right, but you think that you have the right to say that nobody else has any. Which, when I think about our sort of cultural moment and where we are with with manhood, which I know is a very general, huge general discussion. But I think, you know, for me personally, I see a tension between like,
00:35:03
Speaker
I guess not even just manhood, but like social political discussion, I guess, of people saying that, you know, their rights matter more than others. And this is coming from both sides of the discussions. And
00:35:35
Speaker
I think for men in general, like, there's a confusion about like, how do we approach violence? Because in Westerns, especially, like, um men are are sort of defined by how they use their violence.
00:36:00
Speaker
And I'm not sure I agree with this 100%, but I think that like violence is definitely like a key facet of of what makes a man.
00:36:15
Speaker
a man, you know, is is that's like in general, men are good at violence in general, um, uh, compared to women. It's just like physically throughout history that has been kind of the role is defined by violence. But, you know, the question is, do you use your violence to, um, take and to dominate Or do you use it to defend and protect? um And it gets, it's a very kind of muddy gray discussion. But I think this movie really, that's, I think that's where this movie says, okay, Shane is is using his violence to defend and it's okay to kill if it's justified. I don't know.
00:37:12
Speaker
in this movie, there's there's so much there's so much to take from that because there's. There's some amazing quotes, and I think there's two primary arguments happening in this movie about guns and violence.
00:37:31
Speaker
But a quintessential moment that happens before the final gunfight, right, it ends in a similar way to a lot of Westerns, the gunfight between Shane and the bad guy and Shane wins. um
00:37:44
Speaker
The scene before that, though, I think is is a unique one to Shane. Oh, because as Shane is preparing to go and fight Riker and fight Wilson, the gun man that Riker is has hired.
00:38:05
Speaker
Shane gets into a fight with Joe because Joe does not want Shane to fight his battle.
00:38:17
Speaker
Joe doesn't want to be seen as a coward. Joe doesn't want Shane to fight a battle when in reality it should be a homesteader that does it. And so Shane and Joe, right before this battle starts, Joe actually takes Shane aside and and and pretty much says,
00:38:43
Speaker
you're a better fit for my wife than I am. And so when I don't come back from killing Riker, when he kills me, take care of my wife, Shane doesn't verbally respond to that. I don't remember, but they then end up in a an all out brawl. Like they are, it is intense. They're punching each other. They're rolling on the ground. There's,
00:39:08
Speaker
Ultimately Shane takes the handle of his the butt of his gun hits it against Joe's head and knocks him unconscious so that he Shane can go and fight Riker in Wilson because That's what he is and he says this he says this statement And I think this will relate to the writer really well. And so I want to bring it back up when we talk about that. A man has to be what he is. He can't break the mold. I think the writer talks about is asking a similar question. um and What does it mean to be who you are? Or who are you? Maybe is a better thing. like What is it that defines you? And Shane has spent this entire movie trying to redefine his life. Redefining it by working with
00:39:57
Speaker
axes and saws and and homesteader tools, redefine it by dancing, redefine it by being with the homesteaders, physically changing all of his clothing, hiding his gun away. He's tried to change everything. But when it comes down to it, he realizes that a man has to be what he is. And what he is is a gunfighter, not a homesteader. And so that is his battle to fight.
00:40:28
Speaker
And he says these two, this this to Joey, when Joey's talking about becoming a ah shooter and trying to kill people. He tells Joey, he said, there's no living with a killing. You can't come back from one.
00:40:45
Speaker
While those two quotes are really important, the the question about manliness, violence, And in this movie Guns, it's is all tied together in what I think are two competing arguments.
00:41:04
Speaker
One is held by Mary Ellen, and one is held by Shane. And here are the two quotes that we see. Shane says, a gun is a tool like any other. It is as good or bad as the one who holds it. That's Shane's argument. Mary Ellen's argument is I don't want any guns in the valley. A gun is not a good thing. A gun only means killing.
00:41:34
Speaker
And those two are those are two competing principles and approaches that are at war with each other, below the scenes. and The answer in this movie to it, which I don't know if it's not my answer, but the answer of this movie is Shane, as Shane is leaving after killing Riker, after showing that the man that he is, the good man that he is has killed the bad men.
00:42:09
Speaker
that Riker and Wilson are with guns, right? he's He's like, he's used his gun as a tool argument. He's told it to completion. But then he tells Joey who would run after him to to watch the fight and apologize for saying that he hated him. um There's a whole different conversation about Joey and what does it mean to be a father and who is it that he sees as his father, Joe and Shane? That's fascinating. But as Shane's leaving, he tells Joey,
00:42:40
Speaker
Tell your mom.
00:42:45
Speaker
Everything is all right. There aren't any guns left in the Valley. Do you see those as competing arguments or like where do you find yourself in that space? That's a good question. I, I.
00:43:05
Speaker
I actually think Mary Ellen is is right that a gun means killing because that's what they were made for. um
00:43:16
Speaker
And I do think
00:43:20
Speaker
You know, but I also see the necessity of Shane having a gun, you know, and having the power to protect people who need to be protected.
00:43:35
Speaker
um
00:43:39
Speaker
i My dad hunts. He taught me to shoot. So I have been around guns. I know how to use a gun.
00:43:50
Speaker
um My dad was very good at explaining to me that, you know, it's a weapon teaching me really good, safe handling practices. Um, and, and everything like that. And I, so I don't, I don't, I don't hate guns, but I do think that there's, it's kind of, there's kind of a ridiculous trend of like,
00:44:22
Speaker
I don't want to rain on people's hobbies. But like, I think that if you're into to guns and stuff, like you need to understand that like, there's not really a practical application for a semiotic automatic machine gun. Like, hunting is one thing in like, and having a weapon that can is designed for killing people is another thing. Yeah. So I don't want to get too deep into the political discussion um because it's really more than a political discussion and that's why they get so heated. But the difficulty with America is that there's already so many guns in America that like it's really hard practically to enact a safe
00:45:10
Speaker
like practical gun control that is not just going and trying to seize guns. That's just totally not practical or possible. So I think more the emphasis should be more on education and teaching people how to handle guns and maybe de-escalating the situations that lead people to reach for guns.
00:45:33
Speaker
um rather than focusing on the guns themselves because Shane is also right that you know it it matters who's using it. The thing with guns is that they're so powerful that you don't even have to have a malintent to hurt somebody or even kill somebody. like That's why it's so important to be educated and to practice safety with guns because
00:46:05
Speaker
one little accident and they could kill you or some of that someone that you love. Yeah. um So like, yeah, keep the ammo separate. put it and Lock it in a box, lock the guns in a safe. If you don't have a safe, put a trigger guard on it, keep the keys in a safe.
00:46:21
Speaker
like
00:46:24
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah.
00:46:34
Speaker
never yet and never put a gun in anything you don't mean to kill i think she says right to joey at one point in this movie this even when it's not loaded like never i was always taught never ever like doesn't matter if it's loaded or not just don't do it this is a thanks for that answer hunter i know it's a hard conversation and it's a conversation that's almost impossible to have without it's a loaded question, even if you're not trying to ask it in a loaded way. There's there's so many things that go through all of our minds that you know both politically and personally and theologically and piece after piece after piece after piece. And and yet I think it's appropriate to
00:47:33
Speaker
to have the conversation or, or at least to, to ask yourselves this question. And I would, I would encourage all of the listeners, people who have been listening along with us to to ask that question of should our goal be to have no guns left in the Valley since or is it true?
00:48:01
Speaker
that a gun is a tool like any other, and if it's as good as bad, good or bad as the one who holds it, or are both true. um At different points in my life, I've fallen on different sides of this this thought process.
00:48:16
Speaker
But it's very clear in this movie, once guns are brought out, the scope of violence changes. It goes from bloody noses, and in fact, the person that Shane fights with in that opening brawl scene, which is a fun one, one um ends up becoming a friend of Shane's and and warns him about Riker's decision later on. And that causes Shane to arm up and the body count grows. Yeah.
00:49:06
Speaker
Ultimately, Shane's argument is that you can't leave who you are. A man has to be what he is. You can't break the mold. I don't fully buy that argument. I disagree with that. I don't buy that argument. And I think that the writer actually does a really good job of talking about this question.
00:49:33
Speaker
At least that's one of the things that I was gathering as I was I was watching it was What does it mean to be a cowboy? What does it mean? To be when you were made to be and Brady's answer Changes in this movie, right? So I'd love to transition to that that conversation because it adds a different type of of depth than and i was really excited about watching this movie but i'm i here excited to hear your
00:50:09
Speaker
synopsis and yeah and movement for us into Yeah, um I'm so excited to talk about the writer.
Introduction to 'The Rider'
00:50:18
Speaker
I um watched it this past weekend and I like want to watch it again. I'm sad I didn't get to watch it again before our conversation. but um So the the writer is a film directed by Chloe Zhao. It's one of the two movies that she shot on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.
00:50:46
Speaker
um And i I think I saw it because i someone had recommended to me Nomadland, which came out in 2020.
00:51:01
Speaker
and I thought it was like one of the most unique movies I've ever seen in a good way um and I was like oh the writer I'm gonna try another Chloe Zhao movie and I was not prepared for like how deep this movie would hit me um because it is also one of the most unique movies that you'll ever see in that you know, Brady is playing himself. His sister is playing herself. His father is actually his father. Almost all the people in this movie are playing who they are in real life. ah And it is, it's, but it is a fictional story and it's presented as like a movie. So it it, but it is based on true events, you know, also.
00:51:55
Speaker
um Brady in an interview he said it's kind of like 60% my real life and 40% making it more dramatic and it's about a um cowboy living in in South Dakota and he ah trains horses like his his day job is like training horses. yeah That's what his family does. And then he also does rodeo. So he he rides horse bucking horses and he gets ah he gets injured like a horse basically stomps on his head. And they put a plate in his head and everything and he
00:52:38
Speaker
He's told by the doctors that he he can't be around horses anymore because it's too dangerous. And that's kind of where the movie starts. And it's sort of his his journey because like horses are his entire life. you know It's what he's been training to do his whole life and he can't do it. um And this attention between like you know, wanting to get back into rodeo, wanting to be with horses, but also needing to take care of his sister and his family in that personal struggle.
00:53:13
Speaker
um And like this this movie makes me cry every time I watch it because it's just like, oh, I, before I get too too deep into it, Eric, I want to hear, um how you how you responded to it what you thought watching this movie i was thinking about shane because i'd watch it beforehand right and and so i was thinking about pacing and i was thinking about silence and this movie opens with a close-up shot of a horse there's this beautiful stunning
00:53:56
Speaker
videography of this this horse I think it's Gus and time is shown to pass throughout this movie with cut shots of Brady at home eating a pizza or doing some super mundane thing in life sitting on the couch
00:54:20
Speaker
And then the beautiful South Dakota views, whether it's a horses or valleys.
00:54:37
Speaker
And that pacing was really impactful for me. There's so much silence in this movie. And there's so much that you're reading into Brady's face.
00:54:50
Speaker
This is a movie that shows it doesn't tell. but you You don't hear Brady. Verbalize the battle happening internally. You hear it through.
00:55:06
Speaker
some of the things that his friends and family are saying, but then you primarily see it in his eyes, in the flashbacks, in his dreams, you know, in his interactions with Lane. Yeah. i It was a very moving moving movie.
00:55:30
Speaker
I'm I made the decision to to watch the trailer before watching it. And I'm glad I did because it prepared me for a movie of pretty intense depth that I don't think I would have been that that I think I think I needed that preparation, at least where I was when I watched this last night, I needed to I needed that preparation or order to. Yeah. To enter into that head and heart space.
00:55:59
Speaker
I'm trying to think of of a scene or two that particularly stood out to me. And I I'm guessing that we'll talk about Lane. Yeah, those scenes where he's helping Lane ride and ride and you can share more about that. Yeah, the training scenes where he's training the horses. You know, especially with breaking Apollo and then getting the chance to ride him and then
00:56:29
Speaker
the heartbreaking scene with Apollo later on. There's so many things. I was going to say, if you want to experience this movie fresh, now's a good time to stop the podcast. Stop the podcast. If you've heard enough and you're like, all right, I want to watch this movie. All right, stop the podcast. If you're in a car, just sit in silence for a little while. It'll be OK. It'll feel like you're watching this movie. Or Shane. So little words per minute are probably lower in these two movies than almost anything else.
00:57:02
Speaker
Yeah. ah and And I'll. i'll
00:57:08
Speaker
The. yeah We're going to talk about this later, and I know, because we have to, but the visual or one of the the visuals that I'll remember and the the piece that got me emotionally.
00:57:22
Speaker
was Brady at the very end trying to figure out if he's going to be at this rodeo after yelling at his dad and telling him he doesn't want to be like him and then looking over and seeing his dad and his sister. We'll get we'll get there. It's so good. it's
00:57:40
Speaker
Can I share a couple like these things? These are these are a couple film things that like are maybe not how it shaped me personally, and I'll get to those too, but um This is like our about time episode uh roles reversed I kept going to all the like the big scenes and they're like slow down So I guess these are like a couple things that I had never seen in a movie before that like really struck me. One was lighting and the way that this movie is shot. um In the interviews they talk about golden hour, which if you are familiar with photography, you'll know it's a certain time of day where the light is just perfect and it lasts like an hour or so.
00:58:36
Speaker
You know, I think it depends on where you are, what time it is, but, um, it's just light and that is perfect for photography. And they like really, she worked really closely with her cinematographer.
00:58:52
Speaker
to schedule specifically during golden hour so that they could film. And I think they were, they were pretty strict about it. Like not like only filming during golden hour. So that shot of like the one that stood out for me was, was when Brady is just standing on the planes, looking out over the badlands, there's the mountain into the distance and you see the sky. Like that is like,
00:59:18
Speaker
Like one of the most gorgeous shots I've seen in any movie, any movie, you know, including Dune or whatever you can think of of scenes with, with stunning visuals like that scene.
00:59:32
Speaker
because it's just the natural beauty of the Badlands in Golden Hour, captured at the perfect time, with the perfect framing, with a really steady hand. It's just like, and the whole movie is like that. You know and and you don't need CGI when God's already created the perfect visuals.
00:59:51
Speaker
Yeah. And and it it's just it's just lovely. And I just I love it to death. And, you know, like the horse breaking. And then the other thing that that leads into that is the horse breaking, which is actually Brady breaking a horse live in front of the camera. I was wondering about that. OK. Yeah. Those are like actual clients horses that he was hired to break and they went and filmed him doing it. um And Part of how this movie came about is Chloe Zhao was visiting the Pine Ridge Reservation and she saw Brady breaking a horse and kind of got to know Brady about in his story a little bit more. And I think she says in the interview that I saw him you know being like dance partner and enemy and and friend and lover.
01:00:41
Speaker
to this horse and I thought that he could do the same thing to the audience, to the camera. um And like, I'm not like a horse person. I like horses. I think they're cool. I never spent enough time with them to really like be a horse guy. and with But um it's just it's just beautiful watching him form a relationship with this horse and horses really are beautiful animals.
01:01:08
Speaker
um and it's filmed and in the golden hour. So that that those are two things that I just think are really unique about this movie just as a film in general.
01:01:25
Speaker
This is that information you've given me. Hunter is really helpful to me to understand, because as I was watching this movie at times, it feels like a documentary more than a movie. And some of that can be a little bit jolting. Honestly, like at one point there.
01:01:46
Speaker
Brady's hanging out with some of his cowboy friends around a fire and they're be doing some stupid stuff. Is there teenagers or, you know, whatever in that, but like they're jumping over a fire and whatever, but then they kind of each just take turns. Talking about. Some of their worst injuries.
01:02:11
Speaker
Getting, you know, stomped on and getting thrown off and fighting through the pain and then and then they talk about their friend Lane. And about how he was the best of them. Possibly the best in the world.
01:02:26
Speaker
Yeah. And you you haven't met Lane at that point. You know, something's going to go on and something's up. And then they just take a moment to like pray for Lane. And it's like I was just very kind of confused in. Yeah. As a whole, it makes sense in the whole movie, um but that that extra context of. It felt so real. It felt so real because it was so real.
01:02:55
Speaker
Yeah, this is a whole side of things like modern day cowboys that I know nothing about and zero percent interested in being part of my life. um And yet I'm grateful to to have experienced. Yeah.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, that that campfire scene is also one of the standout scenes to me. i There's nothing really like it in any movie. Because you're right, it is is it is like a documentary.
01:03:30
Speaker
But tell me, how has this movie shaped you? why Why did we actually bring it? like You've talked about the visuals and things you haven't seen before in other movies. And I'm sure that's part of the answer. But why why else? Or how else?
01:03:43
Speaker
Um, well, I think one of the first things is that I, I can't remember the first time I watched this movie. It must've been a few years ago, like 2019 ish. Um,
01:04:01
Speaker
well, no, no, it was after 2020, but, um, I, uh, in 2016, my senior year of college, I broke my leg, uh, skiing and.
01:04:14
Speaker
um I was able to heal pretty well, and um but the therere and it's nothing as serious as Brady's injury, but they do a really good job of like portraying the boredom of having and injury where you know Brady's just like sitting around watching cartoons you know eating up a pizza like just doing nothing because like those kinds of injuries you you just you're not supposed to do anything um and yet your mind is still somewhat active so like it's just like you're just sitting around doing nothing and not
01:04:55
Speaker
ah being active and the struggle that he has where he starts to get better heal up you know and he talks about getting back on the horse and that kind of thing was like somewhat similar maybe mine was was much less extreme than his uh but like getting back into skiing and stuff um because like yeah technically my leg is strong enough but you know, there's always that kind of doubt when you get back into something after a somewhat severe injury of like, well, am I going to, am I going to be able to do this? Is it going to be safe? Like, because if you haven't had an injury and you're doing this sport, I think sometimes you don't really realize how dangerous it is. Yeah. Um, and so the, the struggle he has of like,
01:05:57
Speaker
he's like slowly realizing that he's he can't do rodeo anymore and it's clear that this was like something really important to him and like he was well known like a kid comes up to him when he's working in the Dakota Mart and a kid comes up like hey are you Brady Blackburn like um and they take a picture with him and they're like, yeah, hope to see you out there again, Brady. He's like, yeah, I'm going to heal up. And you just see this. see in his eyes Yeah. And he has so many struggles of like, cause you know, in this context, in this culture, like being a man means rodeoing. Manliness means getting back on the horse.
01:06:44
Speaker
getting back on the horse, you know fighting through the pain. That's what a cowboy does. um But you know what is really more manly at this point? Is it getting yourself killed on a horse or is it working at the Dakota Mart so that you can feed your family? And there's I find in the struggle with like manhood,
01:07:05
Speaker
in in our day and age is that because like violence isn't really necessary for most of us, like um we we try to find other ways to like express that. like I think that's part of the reason why violent video games are so popular in shooting and fighting, because it it offers kind of an outlet for that sort of like energy, the sport does too, but um there's, I find there's kind of like a, sometimes there's an inverse relationship between what seems manly and what is manly.
01:07:50
Speaker
um And I think about Brady working in that Dakota Mart. Like, it's humiliating, you know, to have been this like rodeo star and then, you know, people see you working at the checkout counter. And when Victor comes by, who's who's the guy who owns Apollo, and he's like, what are you doing here, Brady? Brady's like, well,
01:08:17
Speaker
We need the money, you know, since can he can't train horses, like he can't make money. And, um, and so I guess the the final tension, cause I've been on a long tangent here, but, um,
01:08:37
Speaker
the, uh, I guess the resolution of that, which is Brady makes a compromise where.
01:08:47
Speaker
I guess it's kind of like the, really the only, um,
01:08:55
Speaker
significant dialogue that specifically mentions his internal struggle. Um, and Apollo, which is this horse that Brady trains and, um, kind of like as a, as a personal way to get back into it and, and.
01:09:13
Speaker
Apollo had like some bad habits because some guys tried to ride him and and you know Brady's like man, that'd be a real shame to waste him in the rodeo because he's a good horse and Brady ends up training him um and Getting to ride him and it's a real like triumphant moment to Brady and then Apollo like tries to jump a barbed wire fence and gets hurt and they have to put him down and and Brady is talking to his sister and he's like you know when a horse gets hurt it's not fair to the horse to keep them alive because the horse can't run and jump and do all of the things that you know makes a horse happy and it's not really a fair existence for the horse and Brady's like the same thing happened to me but I'm a person so I got to live and
01:10:08
Speaker
There's this real like training horses for Brady is really dangerous. He could die training horses you know if something happens. You can't control every variable. And that's true in real life for him too.
01:10:25
Speaker
um but When you watch him train horses, you're like, he was born to do that. yeah Yeah. Um, and I think like the net impact that he could have on the world is much greater training horses than it is, you know, having some, some other job, at least that's kind of the thesis of the movie and like risk. I think there's a, there's a healthy.
01:10:57
Speaker
there's a healthy medium between being stupid and, you know, riding horses that could kill you versus like taking on a certain amount of risk to do something really good and something that you're really good at. Um, and that's the tension that I struggle with. Like whenever I go skiing is like, yeah, skiing is pretty dangerous, but you know, it's it makes me feel alive. And, um you know, what am I supposed to do if I if I if I can't feel alive? And, you know, maybe for you, it's not skiing, but it could be something else. um
01:11:45
Speaker
And you have to have to really think hard about that risk and um be cautious and careful. And you know I also think about how one of the most risky things that we do every day is drive a car. So anyway, and sorry, I don't wanna say too much, but we could talk about lanes. I'm gonna break in here um because you you shared a quote that I think could be read one of two ways.
01:12:17
Speaker
and the and It's it's that that main point where Brady's talking with his sister about Apollo getting injured. He says, you know, I got hurt like Apollo did, but I'm a person, so I got to live. If any animal got hurt like I did, they'd have to be put down.
01:12:35
Speaker
And there's the one reading reading reading of it that says, you know, because you're a human, you're, you know, you get to live, you know, in the midst of that. um But the other the other reading is just actually what I read at that point. ah he you You know, I got her like Apollo did, but I'm a person, so I got to live. It's like more of like this. He almost wishes he didn't live.
01:13:00
Speaker
um And in fact directly following the scene he decides to jump back in the rodeo to as his dad says pretty much to die That go go die, you know, if you're gonna do that. You're gonna kill yourself um And I think there's this this I I think at this point in the movie and in Brady's life he is torn into he's trying to figure out is it better for me to live and and do something, as you're saying, that's not what I was made to do. To support my sister and my dad and my family. Or is it better for me to die doing the thing that I feel like I was made to do at the rodeo so I can go out in a blaze of glory? Right. And I think at this point, he's leaning towards the second. Yeah, it's better for me to die doing the thing that I was in in my mind made to do.
01:14:01
Speaker
But at the end, he ends up on the other side. And so I wanna talk about that scene, Hunter, because- Can we talk about, mention Lane? Well, directly following that scene, we we then go into Lane's story, right? The movie ends with Lane. So I was thinking this scene might be a good way to lead us into that. So after this after talking to his sister,
01:14:29
Speaker
and saying I got to live. Brady puts all of his gear in the back of his pickup truck to drive to the rodeo where he signed up and his dad confronts him and says, no, don't do this. know Now his dad is not a character that we've really empathized with in this movie. First time we interact with him, he's driving home drunk. He puts all their money into Gambling and all these things his mom Brady's mom died a few years earlier and Brady's just like his mom. He's stubborn just like her and all these pieces. Mm-hmm, but Brady yells at his dad as his dad walks away after Brady said no, I'm going to the rodeo regardless of what you do He says I'm not going to end up like you He yells at him and drives away He's at the rodeo seeing the other Cowboys
01:15:25
Speaker
Getting all those things ready. Throughout the movie, his hands have been... He's having many seizures. His right hand seeizes seizes up because of ah the brain damage, which is the reason why he can't ride. He can't do, you know, beat go in the rodeo. But we see we see this, this rodeo, getting ready for the rodeo, looking at ah horses, looking at the other cowboys. Throughout this entire movie,
01:15:55
Speaker
Whenever it's, ah as time passes, whenever you pan onto to one of rady of Brady's friends, you just see new injuries. Broken arms, broken legs, casts, whatever it might be. um You kind of see a little bit of that there. And then Brady looks out.
01:16:15
Speaker
um and sees his dad and his sister standing at the edge of the fence looking in. I showed up to watch him ride because I love him. And his friend one of his friends says, yo, like, yo, hey, Brady, like, you're up. Like, it's it's your time. And Brady looks back at his parents his dad and his sister.
01:16:41
Speaker
He says, go get him cowboy. Or he says, you yeah you know, pretty much as I'm done. Give him a head nod. you Give him a head nod. And then then his friend says he calls him a cowboy as he as he walked away. And that idea that you're still a cowboy, even if you're not riding. um And he walks away to his dad and his sister and what you see from a distance is him hugging his dad.
01:17:09
Speaker
And that's the scene that gets me. That's the moment where- Yeah, that's like my big scene. That's my, yeah. That's where Brady has finally made the decision of what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be him in his life?
01:17:32
Speaker
Yeah. ah I actually tried to keep track of the moments where his hand seizes up. um So the first one is when he's holding a horse figurine by his mother's grave. He closes around the horse figurine. Second is when he's tying a bandana on to go see Lane, to visit Lane. The third is when he is training a horse after he gets to training again and his hand gets stuck on the horse. um And it kind of raises the stakes a bit. And then the fourth time is when he's practicing on the um the practice rodeo thing and he's about to get off and he can't and get his hand out of the thing. And then the last time is that last scene at the rodeo.
01:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, that scene is is whenever I think about this movie, I think about that scene. And it's it's specifically when he's looking down at his hand, holding the reins, clenching onto the reins and you don't actually see him let go of it. They cut away and then his friend is holding the reins. So presumably Brady has let go of it and he's walking away.
01:18:59
Speaker
um and And I think that that to me represents Brady, he's letting go of rodeo and this this thing that he felt like was what really defined him as a man. And he's choosing he's choosing his family and instead of this rodeo and and and getting killed and and having glory. and I think glory is really something that a lot of men are drawn to, going all the way back to the Iliad with with Achilles and Hector and all these great heroes. Achilles is you know all about the glory and the glory that you can win in battle. or die think you know
01:19:49
Speaker
when even in dying, you know? Yeah. The legacy that you leave. And, you know, there's a real, like, if Brady were to die, they would, they would glorify him. Oh, yeah. You know? um And, you know, he decides that his family is more important than that. um And there's a,
01:20:21
Speaker
a song by 21 pilots called Old East Station. And one of the lines that I think about a lot that relates to this is, I think the song is really about parenthood. You can relate it to, it's it's poetic enough that you can relate it to your life, pushing through things. and But there's a line that says,
01:20:52
Speaker
When purging things you used to love, everything must go. And you know there's a lot of decisions that I have to make as a dad, um you know deciding to be a stay-at-home dad and and take care of my kids and my family. Well, I can't do a lot of the stuff that I used to do. and and you know I know it's for for a season of of life, but um you know my family is much more important to me than going out on a ski slope and breaking my leg. Yep.
01:21:34
Speaker
ah
01:21:39
Speaker
So, Hunter, what do you think? The chain made the argument that a man has to be what he is. He can't break the mold. But what you just shared about Brady and the quote you just shared about 21 Pilots seems to make a different argument to me. Is that what the writer is saying? Would the writer agree with that statement? and A man has to be what he is. He can't break the mold or no. Yeah, I don't think so. um I will reference Thomas Hardy's statement that novels are impressions, not arguments.
01:22:14
Speaker
um And so I think the impression that the writer gives really is against the idea that you can't break the mold. And I think I agree with that. um I think that every man has to decide for themselves what but being a man really means for them. But for me, it means using what strength I have
01:22:46
Speaker
for others, for my family, my wife, my kids, my friends. and And that to me is far more heroic and manly than getting my head stomped on or breaking my leg in a ski racer, um shooting a bunch of guys in a saloon.
01:23:14
Speaker
um
01:23:17
Speaker
Because it might be very fun to watch someone shoot people in a saloon. And I've been playing Red Dead Redemption too, which is like, just like an imagine amalgamation of all the westerns you've ever seen. And you get to walk around in them. But it might be very, that stuff is fun and cool and it gets all the glory, but you know, what's really gonna last is people and- Yeah.
01:23:43
Speaker
and life itself and and whether you know maybe you don't maybe you're not married or something but and you don't have kids but like even your life is is just as valuable and and i think lane's story really speaks to that um too Hey, I agree. I think that that that holds so much strength my pastor has been sharing a quote Sticked in my mind that everybody wants their dad to be Huge strong able to to dole out punishment and whatever is needed in any situation when it comes to other people But when it comes to you
01:24:31
Speaker
you want You want that same dad, but when it comes to you breaking the rules, you want your same dad to be full of grace, full of love, to never use that strength that you perceive that he has towards and uses against others. And I think that's actually one of the things we can celebrate as as Christians is that while we fail at that, while in reality, we're much closer to Brady's dad in life than to Anything else um our Heavenly Father Yeah, has that strength has that love has that grace has that mercy and truth all wrapped up in one ultimate strength ultimate love at the same time I think I think Jesus is a great example of
01:25:21
Speaker
redeeming manhood. Agreed. Because Jesus is strong, you know, but he is gentle and humble at heart and he he defeats death itself. Well, can we end by talking about Lane, about Brady's interactions with Lane, because I don't think
01:25:53
Speaker
Because I see Brady being the most joyful version of himself. When he is with Lane. In fact, that joy is how the movie ends. So can you tell us a little bit about Lane, just like a 30 second synopsis of Lane and so. So Lane is Brady's like best friend from childhood and then Lane had an had an accident um that rendered him. He's in a wheelchair. He.
01:26:21
Speaker
has to sign things because he can't really talk. I think it's some kind of like nervous system like like broke his back or something like that where he's he's really, you know, he's and in rough shape and he's in he's living in a rehab center and Brady goes to visit him whenever he can.
01:26:43
Speaker
um Interesting tidbit is that in the movie it's kind of assumed to make it more dramatic that that Lane has gotten hurt at a rodeo Riding riding a bull or something in real life. It was actually a car accident um and ah Brady goes to visit Lane and they sort of they they talk they have fun They take up make a lot of jokes apparently Lane actually came up with a lot of the jokes himself Like they had they had it written to be more somber, but Lane was like now Rub some dirt in it, you know and all those kinds of jokes are from him himself. He's a he's a funny guy, but um they do these scenes where he's trying to teach Lane a
01:27:30
Speaker
to ride again you know and so they put him on like a dummy horse and and Brady pulls the the reins and stuff for him so that he can kind of imagine riding again um and I mean you know like when Brady stops in the truck and just cries like he knows that Lane is not going to ride again um but it's this this this perseverance and an endurance of that that Lane has you know to to keep living and enjoying being alive in spite of the fact that he's never gonna ride a bull again. um it's It's really- And that's what pushes you Brady to that same right space. Yeah.
01:28:24
Speaker
That relationship is is is so beautiful in this movie. it's And I think it's done so well. It's. At least as a viewer, I was like, you know, Brady and Lane are in the same place, you know, they look different. They had they've had different injuries. The lanes making something out of his injury and about his life now that. By the end of the movie. Brady has made that same decision.
01:28:55
Speaker
and then and and it and brings that full picture because it ends with with Brady at Lane's bedside holding his hands and having Lane lead him backing up the horse or turning left or turning right or going into a full gallop riding on Gus's back.
01:29:17
Speaker
And while, while Brady is having, having lane do that, visualize that li lane is beaming and Brady's mind goes. And so visually we go to see Brady riding across the range on Gus's back at golden hour, feeling completely free, went through his hair, even as he's making that decision to never ride again.
01:29:49
Speaker
It's a different way of so of of having the cowboy ride off into the sunset. Right. Yeah, not into the grave.
01:30:05
Speaker
Any last thoughts, Hunter? Oh, I had one. It slipped away.
01:30:20
Speaker
My final thought will be, I think,
01:30:26
Speaker
cowboy up. And when I say cowboy up, I mean, I mean, maybe cowboy up means to reject the the usual meaning of that, to be a real man.
01:30:47
Speaker
real men put other lives before before their own glory.
01:30:59
Speaker
I love it. American Western is such a very specific genre to our country. And it's been really interesting in talking with you about this and to have a hard conversation.
01:31:13
Speaker
Um, yeah. Or, or maybe, maybe more specifically to have a conversation about. Hard hitting movies that communicate the American ideal and manliness communicate about the war, about violence, about what is strength, true strength mean in ways that both go along with and subvert.
01:31:44
Speaker
cultural narrative. I think a lot can be learned from these spaces. And I think that a good film causes more questions than gives answers. Yeah.
01:32:01
Speaker
Yeah, as an alternative to my final things, something I used to pray a lot when I was 13 or 14 is that I would rather be a real man than seem like to be a godly man than seem like one. And I think think I'm farther along on that journey than I was. I still have a long way to go and I think I always will. But I think the rider is a really a representation of of of that struggle. Journey before destination. Right.
01:32:43
Speaker
well destination does matter. Some, we've already gone on. Great conversation. Yes. The sun has sat in this podcast episode and we will see you or talk with y'all again, uh, some point soon. Probably used to be eaten then. Yeah. I'll see you after. Cheers.