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How to Join an Extremist Group
3.3k Plays2 years ago
In the latest installment of our new podcast, we sit down with Dr Muhammad Fraser-Rahim to discuss radicalisation and extremism, and how individuals find themselves recruited into extremist groups. Dr. Fraser-Rahim currently is Vice President, Global Intelligence, Resilience and Response Operations at Salesforce and is on faculty at the Citadel and Yale University as a Visiting Assistant Professor where he teaches a range of courses on intelligence, counterterrorism and deradicalization issues domestically and worldwide. He is also the former Executive Director, North America for Quilliam International, the world’s oldest counter-extremist organization, where he oversaw policy issues centering around rehabilitation, demobilization and deradicalization against violent extremism. He is an expert on violent extremism issues both domestically and overseas. He previously worked for the U.S. Institute of Peace leading their Horn of Africa programs as an expert on extremism. Dr. Fraser-Rahim worked for the U.S. government for more than a decade, including the Department of Homeland Security; Director of National Intelligence; and the National Counterterrorism Center providing strategic advice and executive branch analytical support on countering violent extremism issues. He also worked for the White House and the National Security Council where he was the author or co-author of Presidential Daily Briefs and strategic assessments on extremist ideology and counter-radicalization. Dr. Fraser-Rahim has conducted research in more than 40 countries on the African continent, and has worked and studied throughout the Middle East and is a Security Fellow at the Truman National Security Project. He completed his Ph.D at Howard University with a focus on African studies, Islamic intellectual history and security studies and is the author of the award winning book, Americas Other Muslims: Imam WD Mohammed, Islamic Reform and the Making of American Islam.
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Transcript
Podcast Series Introduction
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to How to Get on a Watchlist, the new podcast series from Encyclopedia Geopolitica. In each episode, we sit down with leading experts to talk about dangerous acts, organisations and people. We examine historical cases, as well as the risks these subjects currently pose. From assassinations and airline shootdowns, through to kidnappings and coups, we'll examine each of these threats through the lenses of both the dangerous actors behind them and the agencies around the world seeking to stop them.
Hosts' Backgrounds
00:00:38
Speaker
In the interest of operational security, certain tactical details will be omitted from these discussions. However, the cases and threats which we discuss here are very real.
00:01:06
Speaker
I'm Louis H. Passant, the founder and editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica. I'm also a doctoral researcher at the University of Loughborough in the field of intelligence and espionage in the private sector. In my day job, I provide intelligence to corporate executives on complex geopolitical and security issues. I'm Simon Schofield, co-editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica and deputy director of the Human Security Centre, where I research issues related to terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.
Guest Expert Introduction
00:01:32
Speaker
Joining us today is Dr. Muhammad Fraser Rahim. Muhammad is currently Vice President Global Intelligence Resilience and Response Operations at Salesforce and is on faculty at the Citadel and Yale universities as a visiting assistant professor, where he teaches a range of courses on intelligence, cancer, terrorism, de-radicalization. He's the former executive director of North America for Quilliam International, the world's oldest counter extremism organization, where he oversaw policy issues centering around rehabilitation, de-mobilization and de-radicalization against violent extremism.
00:02:02
Speaker
Mohammed is an expert on violent extremism issues, both domestically and overseas. He's previously worked for the US Institute of Peace, leading their Horn of Africa programs as an expert on extremism. Dr Fraser Raheem worked for the US government for more than a decade, including the Department of Homeland Security,
00:02:17
Speaker
Director of National Intelligence and the National Counterterrorism Center, providing strategic advice and executive branch analytical support on countering violent extremism issues. He also worked for the White House and the National Security Council, where he was the author and co-author of Presidential Daily Briefs and strategic assessments on extremist ideology and counter radicalization.
00:02:35
Speaker
Mohammed has conducted research among 40 countries on the African continent and has worked and studied throughout the Middle East and is a security fellow at the Truman National Security Project. He completed his PhD at Howard University with a focus on African studies, Islamic intellectual history and security studies, and is the author of the award-winning book, America's Other Muslims, Imam W.D. Mohammed, Islamic Reform and the Making of American Islam. Mohammed, thank you so much for joining us.
00:02:58
Speaker
Great, thanks so much, really happy to be here.
Career Path and Inspirations
00:03:01
Speaker
So I think the first question here with a background like that, how did you get into this field?
00:03:07
Speaker
You know, that's a good question. I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina in the United States. So I know we have an international audience here. And during that time, I was a physics major initially when I was in college. And I was interested really in becoming a periodontist. So I was fascinated by teeth and really the field of Dennis Street. And then I studied abroad in France. And after I studied in France, I then studied in West Africa, Senegal, Mali, Guinea, Sierra Leone, and the Gambia.
00:03:35
Speaker
And after I remember coming back and I was like, the game has changed. I absolutely need to have an interest in international relations and history. And from that conversation, I changed my major to history or double minored or double majored in history in IR. And I took four years of Arabic language, which I had a background already in Arabic with the university.
00:03:58
Speaker
And lo and behold, I was about to graduate and one of the three letter agencies in the United States had reached out to me and I really didn't have a strong background if I should join or not. And initially I said no. And then to make a long story short, I then made a decision to allow that process particularly to give the security clearance and joined starting my career off as an Arabic linguist watching jihadist messages for nine, 10 hours a day.
00:04:28
Speaker
Wow, and with a background like that, the next natural question, I suppose, is what then prompted you to write this fantastic book, America's Other Muslims?
00:04:37
Speaker
You know, this is really a fusion between both personal and professional interests. I always, my work has always been an intersection, both particularly once I left government, between academia as a practitioner, as someone who also is fascinated by policy. And for a while I struggled because I remember being a government analyst working in a closed building and not necessarily be able to take those secrets out the building. And I was struggling to say, one day I want to be able to
00:05:05
Speaker
to really be fully expressed. And so I want to be able to bring together my knowledge and passion for history, passion for cultures. And so really, while I was working on my dissertation, I've always worked while I was in graduate school. So when I was completing my master's back in 2007, I was working as a government analyst, a CT analyst.
00:05:27
Speaker
kind of terrorism analyst. And then I also, while I was finishing up my PhD, I was also working as a government analyst. And I really wanted to fuse together all that passion. So as a historian, I'm looking at the world from the lens, from using historiography as my methodology. And so how does the world evolve from the context of how people, places, and times, how they maneuver? And so for me, that was my foundation.
00:05:54
Speaker
I also knew quickly that I also was working, particularly at the U.S. Institute of Peace, once I left government and then ultimately with Quilliam, that I wanted to fuse the policy interests and the work I had been doing working with violent extremists.
Counter-Radicalization Strategies
00:06:10
Speaker
And so for me, I didn't want to pick. I didn't want to pick and choose.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I found a way really to bring it all together. And so America's Other Muslims is really a product of both the fusion of my passion for history and understanding that role and that importance and the value of it, and then also the desire to really bring it all the way up to the present. And so the book really addressed what I would characterize as a 40 year plus counter radicalization, close to actually 50 year plus counter radicalization strategy from a community that was
00:06:42
Speaker
rooted in the United States that went through what I would consider real and or perceived grievances of hate and violence in light of the American experiment and then finding a way to then get past that resentment to become a healthy, productive member of the society. So I went through and navigated through the historical context of Islam in America, actually going back to West Africa, its role of non-violence in
00:07:09
Speaker
in West African, I should say pluralism within West African society, moving its way into the United States with the son of Elijah Muhammad, who was the leader of the Nation of Islam, a black nationalist movement that had some elements of traditional Islam, some elements of what I call Islamic hybrid movements, infusing together what would then address
00:07:29
Speaker
the plight of the African-American condition. W.D. Muhammad, the son of, rejects his father's teachings, was excommunicated for over four times, and he led the largest mass conversion of American Muslims to Sunni or Orthodox Islam. But that Orthodox Islam was not rooted in where the center of gravity was the Arab Middle East, the center of gravity was not even the African rich intellectual traditions in places like Timbuktu, Agadez-Niger, or in Mali. But
00:07:58
Speaker
What he offered to say is that you can be both American and Muslim on the same term. So W.D. Muhammad offers this radical shift from individuals who were very much anti-government, very much wanting to revolt against the state and then finding means within his tradition and then finding means to address the plight to then what I characterize as a counter-radicalization strategy. And so I thought it was exciting to be able to put together a body of work that had
00:08:29
Speaker
contemporary application that was able to line itself with other strategies that other countries have engaged
Distinguishing Islam and Islamism
00:08:38
Speaker
with. For example, the United Kingdom might be familiar with channel or prevent, which is one of the efforts to prevent extremism. Or if you go to Saudi Arabia, there's a model using theology because it's
00:08:49
Speaker
95% Muslim or if you follow, you go to Singapore, then use more of a cognitive shift. And so what I've offered is to say that this was one strategy, one model.
00:09:00
Speaker
out of different models that are out there throughout the world to address issues of violent extremism, in this case, Islamist violent extremism. And I characterize, I make a distinction between Islamism and Islam. Islam, a religion practiced by 1.4 slash 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the world. Islamism, a political ideology that
00:09:21
Speaker
imposes a strict, narrow, literalist, many times legalistic interpretation of Islam that doesn't allow for rooms of creativity and expression, right? Now, we do know very much that the extreme end of that is groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS and their affiliates throughout the world. But the other
00:09:41
Speaker
Item are non-violent Islamists who have popped up and if we look at one example is Rashid Ganeshi Spadi a nada That's in Tunisia that has led the right of basically we want to be part of the political mainstream We want to be part of the political process, but we also recognize that Islam is our sort of foundation or ideology but not through violent means and so anyway I think that's important because there are many threats in many respects that are out there and beyond
00:10:11
Speaker
Islamism being one that we've all certainly seen in the most recent part of our contemporary times. But there are many others that are morphed.
00:10:20
Speaker
Now we see the rise of far right, far left extremism that have taken cues in many ways from Islamist, violent extremists who made it there, should I say, cool. I remember the times just what, five, 10 years ago, the concept of jihadi cool, young Tunisians, Moroccans who were traveling to the so-called Islamic State to get involved in the attractive appeal of standing up what they considered against Western oppression and occupation.
00:10:49
Speaker
And so all that what I've kind of highlighted is this book really captures some of these, I think, really important gems as one contribution out of many contributions in this space to combat extremism, combat violent extremism worldwide.
00:11:04
Speaker
So that's an absolutely fantastic book, and we'll make sure we get a copy of a link to that in our show notes for members of the audience who wants to buy a copy of that. So I suppose that brings us on really well to the topic today, which is how to join an extremist group. Now, as you've alluded to, there's many different flavors of extremist group.
Defining Extremism
00:11:21
Speaker
How would you define an extremist group? Are they always necessarily engaged in some sort of violent or illegal activity?
00:11:28
Speaker
Well, I'll start off to say that extremism, violent extremism, terrorism has often been one of the most contentious terms in debated, depending on where you are. The FBI, CIA, Defense Department have a very clear definition of what they classify extremism to be in terms of individuals who have belief systems, political, ideological viewpoints that want to subjugate, oppress, restrict others,
00:11:55
Speaker
And they use violent means to impose their wrath, right? So academics, when they engage from this space, political violence might be the frame of how they see this. And it could be from an IAR historical lens of how they look at and see this. So let me start off to just say that the debates are out there and endless in terms of that definition.
00:12:16
Speaker
What I would also just offer to say is that when we look at extremism, it's evolved. I mean, this is not new to be very clear in uncertain terms. The United States, the Ku Klux Klan certainly becomes very much part of the impressionable minds for many Americans in terms of violent extremism. But if you look at and you go to the Far East, you see the Tamil Tigers and its evolution. We see the IRA in Europe. There are a number of data points throughout the world
00:12:41
Speaker
that we have in terms of what violent extremist groups are. And as you've probably heard, the popular statement is that one person's freedom fighters, another person's terrorists, and perhaps vice versa. I don't think that that's still far from the truth, but what I would also offer to say is that dealing with an interesting time where there's the political dynamic of this as well.
00:13:01
Speaker
So we've seen politicians who have used, in the spirit of trying to get elected again, to weaponize this concept of extremism for their own political end states. And so we're dealing with both the nation state,
00:13:15
Speaker
Countries at a very kind of country level and then we're also dealing with non-state groups who have operated in this space if you go Look at any terrorism database particularly global terrorism database the University of Maryland start has a number and wonderful body of resource Resources and research in this there's others throughout the world. They will give you very clear and
00:13:36
Speaker
perspectives of what terrorist groups have engaged with throughout the years. And that will give us an evolution, a bit of a stamp in history to show us how groups have been able to increase attacks, whether they have been in Arab Middle East, if they've been in Africa, etc.
00:13:54
Speaker
where we see the expansion of violent extremism, particularly textbook classical violent extremism for many of the imagination for many of us, starting with 9-11 as that point of departure, absolutely recognizing extremism, terrorism developed prior to that. If we look at that,
00:14:10
Speaker
We're seeing the African continent where a lot of this movements are operating. They have hospitable environments. There are porous borders. There are nation states that have provided them haven for their activity. Let's not forget
00:14:25
Speaker
Al-Qaeda in Islamic Maghrib was created and was facilitated because the Algerian government, the Algerian environment created the condition for them to be able to develop and cultivate. Al-Qaeda in Islamic Maghrib was the quintessential franchise organization because they were able to then engage and replicate the activities of Al-Qaeda core
00:14:46
Speaker
and then be able to be known for their own activities in terms of their mo right so we they were known for kidnapping for ransom payments where aging countries would pay the ransom european nations as well
00:15:01
Speaker
very different than what we saw franchise organizations like Al-Shabaab operating in East Africa or Boko Haram known for the indiscriminate attacks and their grievances against the Nigerian government. So I just give you that sort of dynamic that these groups have evolved quite a bit.
00:15:20
Speaker
The definition is evolving as well, and it has continued to evolve in light of the shifting nature, copycat nature of these organizations and how these groups have evolved. On Hart's Breivik wanting to carry out an attack in Europe and then having someone like Dylan Roof in 2015 then being inspired by On Hart's Breivik began somewhere.
00:15:47
Speaker
Why was there a desire? We can see now from the affidavits, from reports, from investigation with DOJ, Department of Justice, an analysis that clearly they were inspired trying to replicate the behavior. They saw others who were able to have shock and awe attacks. They were able to engage in sometimes small scale and large scale attacks. Some of those large scale attacks were considered spectacular. They were able to have a wow factor.
00:16:13
Speaker
Thank you so much for that background and you've quite nicely set out the sort of broad kaleidoscope of extremism. You have jihadism but you also have extreme left, extreme right and even some sort of newer groups coming forward.
Recruitment Tactics of Extremist Groups
00:16:28
Speaker
How do these groups recruit people? Do they all use the same sort of methods or do they differ between the sort of different ideological strands?
00:16:38
Speaker
Good question. I mean, now, thanks to just really good, rigorous work and researchers who are engaging in this space, we have a good canvas of the level of how groups are operating, right? So we know there's a really interesting report that just came out in 2018 from the UN called Journey In and Out of Extremism.
00:16:58
Speaker
And it was canvassing roughly over 500 youth, mostly male, between the ages of 18 to like 35. And it was looking at why they joined extremist groups largely, particularly based in East Africa. And many of them, they're driving, I think many of us using 9-11 as a point of departure, just I use that as sort of a starting point, would say that
00:17:22
Speaker
People are indoctrinated and die hard, true believers. You might've heard this concept, right? This idea of true believers who die hard, passionate about it. But what we found in this particular analysis was that many individuals had little to no understanding of these religious perspectives. I'm just using with jihadism for a second. And so as such, individuals joined movements because they were looking for a sense of belonging. They were looking for meaning. They were looking for purpose. And the incentives, sometimes financial,
00:17:49
Speaker
that were offered were providing some of those gaps right so so i think it's important to recognize that you know yes i'm you some individuals have been driven by financial resources provided to them because the state wasn't providing unemployment.
00:18:06
Speaker
opportunities for individuals living in a developing nation, right? So that's absolutely there. But also just as much as people have been exposed, or individuals who have been exposed to recruitment tactics and techniques, they vary. Individuals themselves have many different reasons why they join movements and causes. So it is attractive and sexy because it was part of a global movement. And so I think we have learned quite a bit from the evolution from Al-Qaeda
00:18:35
Speaker
carrying out attacks in the United States. We learned from ISIS's, the ability to come up with magazines like Inspire and Dabek Magazine, and using this as a means of recruitment. It worked for individuals. It was able to resonate, which resonates sometimes can be hard to measure, right? When we're looking at how do you measure the results, right? But I think recruitment has been effective
00:18:58
Speaker
at times getting individuals joining these movements and in some respect, half the battle is the war of ideas, right? Impacting and influencing individuals. So I think that that's been interesting. We're in an interesting phase now that social media is now one of the driving forces of how individuals have been recruited to as well.
00:19:19
Speaker
I remember working particularly in the spaces, particularly in government, post-government, working with, when I was with Quilliam too as well, that social media individuals were radicalized online. I remember going and seeing, thinking about the fact that someone would go use Facebook Live
00:19:36
Speaker
and then advertise their attacks in live. Now we've seen that replicated. Unfortunately, we saw the attacker in New Zealand, we used a GoPro, et cetera. And so I think that has definitely inspired individuals to join movements when they've seen one individual do what they perhaps wanted to do. And so I think recruitment strategies have varied. I think they're learning.
00:19:57
Speaker
Now we're interesting enough for probably moving to a phase where the rise of both the deep dark and surface web, the trifecta have been effective means of recruitment. Now individuals have also, I don't like using the terms individuals have the lone wolf. I use the term self starters. I think there's always a network behind individuals, whether it's online or physical. So that network of self starters, all you need is like a flame. All you need is a little trigger.
00:20:26
Speaker
to be able to inspire you to then go out and execute the target. Last thing I'll say onto your point, there's a difference between radicalization and then mobilization. Radicalization from 2001 to 2015 could be a slow process of individuals joining a movement and a cause to justify what they see as agreements of frustration, right? And they want to use violence.
00:20:50
Speaker
one of the former French intelligence officials I remember him mentioning at various settings, now it's public, that the shortest span of time he saw someone radicalized was two weeks.
00:21:03
Speaker
Well, I can tell you that now, you know, let's use 2015 onward, we're seeing people radicalized and then now mobilized to execute identifying a target and then seeking to carry out their actions, right? So radicalization, you know, historically, sometimes could take years.
00:21:20
Speaker
Follow the motto of Al-Qaeda, of Ayman Zawahiri, using a courier network, using very long, mail-driven processes to be able to MAIL to engage in activities, and then getting response back to say, can we then go operationalize our activity?
00:21:39
Speaker
We're now in this interesting period where, you know, the instructions has already been given to groups and movements. If you see something, go ahead and carry out that attack. And with the world that we live into as well, and the accessibility of just resources makes it that much more concerning. So we're in very interesting times. And also, again,
00:22:00
Speaker
The echo chambers that are developing across these networks are concerning to as well for any student in this space.
00:22:10
Speaker
And that really invites a really important question here. You know, you've touched on these push publications, the Islamic State's Darvik magazine, but echo chambers themselves are a really interesting phenomena here. You know, the incel movement springs to mind as one example of that. And how much of this recruitment do you think is happening by these kind of push and pull methods versus, let's call it self radicalization by being caught in an echo chamber?
Role of Echo Chambers
00:22:34
Speaker
Do you think there's one more important than the other?
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah, you know, the old model was, I remember putting together a product, it's called a radicalization, perverts declassified, it's on, you can Google and you'll find it produced by my former employee, the National Counterterrorism Center. And we talked about this idea of push-pull, right? There's one element pushing you this way, it pulls, it goes, I have a
00:22:57
Speaker
have evolved in my thinking, it's more like a bicycle if you're shifting gears. If you move from one gear to another, they can have different trickling effects and they can also have a ripple effect as well. So I think that's one way to kind of look at these issues when we look at more broader issues of violent extremism, kind of the push-pull effects in the dynamic. You know, the Intel movement is quite interesting because many of those
00:23:23
Speaker
That echo chamber also is a community. And one of the things within subgroup that is interesting about involuntary celibacy, they look for validation amongst others who share their ideology, right? Not a surprise because we've seen this across extremist groups, but that echo chamber creates sort of the condition to validate
00:23:46
Speaker
actions to then carry out what they perceive as a justifiable causes and infliction of harm on others. It depends, right? We're evolving how we see these issues. I think they're learning from one another. I think that also push-pull factors are still, and as I talked about, I've seen it now evolve into more of a sort of the bicycle shifting gear. They all feed off of one another.
00:24:12
Speaker
if you go from one year you could go to a different experience and so i think that. Groups like in cells have similar dynamics just while because they've certainly learned from the experience of other groups but they also operate where they look for validation amongst each other and i think that that's a really important.
00:24:30
Speaker
idea that that validation and we've seen this across other groups but i think that that validation also brings a sense of community and a sense of that community sim brings a sense of belonging to then encourage others to execute what they consider actions i'm usually flicking harm others in this case with many and sells against women so what i would just you know kind of.
00:24:51
Speaker
connect both of those items to in terms of just the broader research is that we're dealing with we don't have the luxury of groups following a singular playbook. They are not following a singular model. We're learning and get rather really interesting insights from formers themselves who provide a hell of a lot of details that help us understand
00:25:12
Speaker
And so I think that that's important as we look at this space and making sure that we stay adept to the shifts and changes based off of how these groups operate. And at times, quite frankly, the self-starting behavior that sometimes people aren't card carrying members of groups, but they are sympathetic members.
00:25:31
Speaker
I think that's really interesting, but just to change gears, to use your analogy there, can I ask what you think about the people themselves that get radicalized?
Traits Leading to Radicalization
00:25:41
Speaker
Do you think these groups look for specific types of people and are there certain traits that maybe all of us have that make people more or less susceptible to radicalization?
00:25:52
Speaker
Well, thanks so much. I would debunk the idea that mental health is the gateway, if you will, to why individuals join extremist groups. I think many will just automatically assume that. Let me also highlight my experience, again, having been involved, put together, compiled analysis directly to the president himself, where I've written on presidential daily briefs.
00:26:18
Speaker
I have sat down, interviewed jihadists themselves, the youngest person in US history. I personally worked to rehabilitate him. One could call to say that I helped to de-radicalize him. I like to use less sensational terminology and said I helped him on his journey because that journey doesn't stop the same way that we're dealing with individuals who are former drug dealers or former
00:26:40
Speaker
gang members. That process takes time. It's not overnight. You have to work with them in a step-by-step process. And quite frankly, it's not sexy. Many individuals just want to, in this era we live in, who would have thought that we're going to say that they're looking for some way to inoculate, to have a vaccine, that you give them this and they will automatically change. But no, I don't think we're there. The hard work rolling up your sleeve
00:27:06
Speaker
talking with individuals and giving them the right dose of support, whether it is psychosocial support, yes, mental health, whether it is, yes, finding them a job, yes, whether it is making them find a partner, a spouse, whether it is finding them resources so they can be productive members of society. That will vary depending on the individual and that is the tough hard work. And so I can tell you from my time
00:27:32
Speaker
working with former Gitmo detainees, working with individuals. I've written a book. There's a collaboration with Oxford University Press talking about de-radicalization and dealing with mental health. Mental health, it can be one direction for individuals, but it is not the sole gateway reason of why individuals join. And so
00:27:50
Speaker
As we deal with reasons why individuals join movements, it's important to look at the holistic person. I'm hopefully trying to give you different examples for you then to go out yourselves to do your research on it and find and see the incredible work that's being done. There's a wonderful organization, Dr. Edith Schlafer, A Woman Without Borders, where she's created what's called, I think it's Sisters Without Borders, one of the two, of mother schools.
00:28:16
Speaker
that mothers, and she also created a father school, that mothers themselves are the first lines of defense against extremism. Fathers themselves, if you remember the bombers at Molenbeek in Belgium, when they were carrying out the attacks, they were on the phone with their mom. And so as they're on the phone with their mother, about to engage in this activity, and the individual, his profile, nominally religious, had engaged with drug activity, had engaged with
00:28:45
Speaker
sort of a broader underworld. His mom's there on the phone trying to bring him down, right? Ultimately, we know he carried out the text, but it just shows you the power of the family.
00:28:56
Speaker
and that family dynamic and how important it can play. And so that's why these holistic models have to be done in a way where it looks at the total human being, not in isolation and recognizing individuals journey. They take time. The late Jesse Morton, if you Google him, you'll find he was a member of the revolutionary Muslim with an individual by the name of Yusuf Abdul-Khatab.
00:29:18
Speaker
and they were sensationalized. I would call it Speaker's Corner equivalent in the United States, which we don't really have that model per se, who happened to be on the street corners in the United States in the early 2000s, late 90s, early 2000. And Jesse Morton has passed away this past year. And one of the things he would talk about is the role of treating individuals individually as you engage with helping them on their journey.
00:29:47
Speaker
I could give you a number of others who would say similar. And that holistic approach has to be done, though it takes time. And it's not solely a security issue. It's all a society approach. And so influencers have to be engaged. Psychosocial technicians have to be involved. And I can tell you individuals who I've worked with
00:30:08
Speaker
have been from the full spectrum, some who have been on the spectrum of head autism, and there have been individuals who have been radicalized by ideological true belief. And so, as we look at these issues, I think it's important to really tailor them in ways where, if we can at the macro level, address them, but also at the micro too.
00:30:30
Speaker
So that's really interesting. I think after the break, we'll talk about the kind of blue team side of it, as we call it, where we discuss how governments and agencies can can counter these kinds of radicalization pathways. But before we do that, you know, we've we've got a colleague in the studio from a counterintelligence background. So I think he would really not be happy with me if I didn't ask this question, which is, are extremist groups aware of efforts to stem the flow of new recruits and are they taking actions to counter them in any way?
Adaptation of Extremist Groups
00:30:57
Speaker
You know, I think groups themselves, they pay attention. I mean, the example of just publications themselves that have been published show very much they have very much looked at the issues of the day. They are very much capturing the themes that are happening in the broader world and they're trying to
00:31:14
Speaker
To get those recruits to join their movements and use the example of al-qaeda. I've had the manuals there and i'm looking at o2 that's on my bookshelf that have been around and they're you know able to address the current issues of the us going into iraq dressing condition of how maybe a particular policy issue within a broader western nation.
00:31:36
Speaker
And I think also groups have evolved quite a bit where they're also using that both at an online space, but also point to point with individuals to use that to justify why they are, why they are frustrated, why they're angry, and why they think that their cause is so much more important. You know, their anti-government groups are in the United States right now that very much have learned from what didn't work in Europe. For example, if you look at
00:32:06
Speaker
some of the recruitment activities of individuals wanting to go to Ukraine. I can't believe that we're saying this right now, but individuals who were traveling to Ukraine for technical expertise in the mid 2000s to locations where they could then come back to the United States to carry out actions and then use that as a part of their recruitment. And they were taking videos.
00:32:28
Speaker
So it's quite interesting that, you know, where was that model coming from? It's certainly coming from learning from the activities of Salafi jihadists who were occupying, engaging in space, both in the Middle East and then individuals who would then travel to Europe to execute attacks, i.e. Glasgow, Scotland, i.e. in France, etc. And so, yeah, I think that this is we're in an interesting time about how these groups operate
00:32:54
Speaker
how they're learning from one another and also how they use recruitment efforts, videos, point to point engagement with individuals for their cause. So after the break, we'll discuss how governments and other organizations can fight this problem.
00:33:17
Speaker
You have been listening to How to Get on a Watchlist, the new podcast series from Encyclopedia Geopolitica.
Government Counter-Radicalization Strategies
00:33:23
Speaker
If you like this show, don't forget to check out our other content at Encyclopedia Geopolitica, which you can find by going to howtogettontawatchlist.com. We can find our analysis on various geopolitical issues, as well as reading lists covering topics like those discussed in the podcast.
00:33:41
Speaker
Please also consider subscribing to the podcast on your streaming platform of choice, as well as rating as five stars if you enjoyed the discussion. So in the first half, we spoke a lot about how extremist groups radicalize, recruit, how they operate. So let's flip that around then. How do governments and other organizations fight radicalization?
00:34:09
Speaker
You know, that's a good question. I mean, I've been on all sides of the angle, so I can definitely give you a few thoughts. You know, governments themselves have been learning and adapting accordingly. There's an interesting perspective to the least from the United States, and then perhaps our allied partners probably would share similar. You know, when I was in government, I saw counterterrorism
00:34:33
Speaker
as traditional deny and disrupt efforts of the adversary coming into the battlefield, right? In many respects, it was using all elements of government, largely kinetic activities, as a means to drive that action, right? So use the example in Pakistan, Afghanistan, operation activity, operation activity that's taking place. I usually morphed together, particularly when I was going through a young, onboarded,
00:34:59
Speaker
CIA analysts working going through the career analyst program.
00:35:03
Speaker
learning my trade craft, learning how to write brief, getting briefings from individuals from the field, understanding insights so then I can write good analysis. I largely saw that counterterrorism and what I would consider countering violent extremism programs as all one and the same. So what we would probably consider the soft power engagement. If we did engage with it, largely relegated to our state department, our foreign ministry, et cetera, right?
00:35:33
Speaker
that those programs themselves, whether it's comic books, whether it is working with religious leaders and scholars, I kind of always conflated them all together and largely probably would be more of a fan traditionally with the kinetic activity. Now, after I left government and then went to U.S. Institute of Peace,
00:35:52
Speaker
I worked as a peace builder, I think got a better glimpse of understanding how these spaces also can be parsed out. And I think that's important because governments themselves, there's a place and role to protect and defend the nation, broader aspects of national security and making sure that all elements of national power are used to protect the nation state and partners. But what I've evolved in my understanding, particularly now I'm being out of government since 2015,
00:36:21
Speaker
I can say that I have got a much better and deeper appreciation of the role of preventative efforts that we can use upstream. You probably have heard upstream efforts to prevent and those upstream efforts allow for those CT kinetic activity also to have a nice careful balance.
00:36:42
Speaker
And so I think governments themselves have an important role to play, not just through intelligence means and efforts which are important, but through diplomatic defense, humanitarian ways and support in this effort as well. So governments play a huge role. Again, having been involved
00:36:58
Speaker
In this space, I think it's important also to allow for the role of nonprofit organizations that have, are the recipients of sometime government funding in the United States. We have a long tradition, if you will, of presenting up grants and funding for individuals to be in those spaces. And I think they hold an important one to provide those outlets to as well.
00:37:22
Speaker
How do governments go about defining extremism and how do these practices evolve? Because as you rightly described, the ideologies and the recruitment procedures are evolving all the time on the sort of red team side of the fence. So how does the government keep up to date with these sorts of things and how do they evolve their approaches as they go?
00:37:46
Speaker
Well, as I mentioned, you know, depending on who you talk to, the UK's Terrorism Act 2006 has a certain clear definition that when it has probably presently the DOD Department of Defense as a perspective State Department. So it varies. But what I think governments themselves have an important role of
00:38:06
Speaker
Making sure that what i call a sort of contractual relationship between the public and their ability to protect the citizens to offer some level of transparency of what's taking place right i'm a big believer of the use of the use of soft power tools to engage.
00:38:24
Speaker
actions. I think they're long standing. I think they have more durability for the horizon scanning down the line. Yes, again, those activities to take out leaders will be there. That's always part of just keeping a nation safe. And so I think governments, they struggle, I think quite frankly, to find that right balance of how
00:38:46
Speaker
to execute this. I mean, the United States in particular, my place of birth, my home country, I use that because our defense industry, our intelligence apparatus is massive. And our role that we play worldwide also is part of a network that operates in a way where we need that interdependency. But I think that what's happened in the lessons learned, quite frankly, from
00:39:15
Speaker
9-11, dealing with leaving Afghanistan with dealing with the aftermath of the Islamic State is some lessons learned, which is how do we work with broader local communities? How do we work with themes and concepts early on to try to disrupt them before they foster and get to the point where we've seen a whole sloth of area of Syria and Iraq?
00:39:41
Speaker
being governed by a non-state actor, right? So I think this is a work in progress to really answer your question. This is evolving. Unfortunately, with in many of our Western liberal democracies, the shift of governments also sometimes brings shift of policies. So it seems as though we've made progress in one era because one political party saw it as important to address this in a very holistic way, but then we have the politicization of security.
00:40:10
Speaker
And then that causes considerable setbacks and progress that could have been made elsewhere. So I put a challenge and task out for all of us who are researchers in this space, who are practitioners, who are academics, to really think thoughtfully about where we want this to evolve. And it requires all of us to be active participants as well.
00:40:33
Speaker
So speaking of active participants, you've spoken about the role of nonprofits and governments, but what about the private sector?
Private Sector's Role in Counter-Extremism
00:40:39
Speaker
What role does the private sector play in countering extremism radicalization? I'm thinking especially because of the role of social media and new media and their role in radicalization.
00:40:49
Speaker
I think the private sector is incredible mouthpieces of change. The technologists of old, of 100 years ago, were likely spiritual religious leaders. The new leaders of this space now are technologists. They are entrepreneurs who offer innovation and creativity, not taking away any from those religious leaders of the past. I think we're in an interesting space of the private sector
00:41:16
Speaker
Driving change oftentimes i hate to use the term big tech driving it and really creative innovative ways but it's still all of this has to have some ethical guardrails to write some big believer of how do we do this in a way where it is protecting human rights and protecting citizens individual agency but how do we do it in a way where it.
00:41:37
Speaker
Also is helpful i think for example and i'm speaking in my private capacity right here but just working in the space of sales force i've seen it an important role of how businesses themselves as a whole need to support me the expertise of.
00:41:55
Speaker
individuals who are working broadly geopolitical issues to understand how things are taking place, but private sector can also obviously bring about and speed up and automate ways that, unfortunately, governments can't. And so I think it's an interesting balance of working, as I said from the beginning, across industries. So, Mohammed, there are two final questions that we always like to ask guests here. The first of them is, what keeps someone like you up at night in the space of extremism? What is it that worries you most?
00:42:25
Speaker
The adaption of the environment, the pace of multiple threats, multiple hazards. I'll never forget, I was taking a training at DHS and one of the trainers was just talking about multiple threats, all threats, all hazards. And he was talking particularly at the time we were dealing with a port security issue. I think that the pace of what we're dealing with, operating both within the world of the unseen, meaning on the online world,
00:42:53
Speaker
at the same time as the physical as well, the material as well. And so that's an interesting space that we're in happening real time, the extreme uncertainties that we're confronted with. That keeps me up at night. We're dealing with drought, extreme drought. We're going to be dealing with soon, we're in hurricane season now in the US, extreme flooding.
00:43:16
Speaker
We're dealing with authoritarianism to his wife. I just saw an article yesterday in Financial Times talking about the rising tensions in the GNC, some tensions with Turkey and Greece, nothing new particularly there. So these items keep me up where the fact that I'm still doing this work now
00:43:41
Speaker
in private sector, working and teaching and lecturing as well. Perhaps even at a higher velocity than when I was in government. It says that this space is wide open for those who are listening on this call who are in graduate school. You will have a healthy future available to you.
00:44:01
Speaker
But security requires thoughtfulness, reflecting. It requires a level of precision and staying sharp on top of what's taking place more than ever. I'm fascinated by new shifts in religious communities and how in the United States worldwide, the decline of organized religious people going to organize religious activities on a weekly basis. So all these trends aren't in isolation.
00:44:28
Speaker
To me, they offer a bit of a conceptual wholeness when you piece them together. And that's what keeps me up at night. Absolutely. And I do think that we are in a sort of unprecedented age of change in the speed with which these dynamics change. And I often describe counterterrorism as the role as being like a goalkeeper. But even the finest goalkeeper on their best day will let a couple of goals in. They only have to be lucky once, and we have to be lucky every time.
00:44:57
Speaker
So I guess the final question to sort of end things on, what sort of questions should analysts and researchers be asking about this kind of field that maybe we haven't discussed
Researcher Advice and Conclusion
00:45:08
Speaker
tonight? Where should we be looking? What should we be thinking about and reading about at the moment?
00:45:14
Speaker
Yeah, as a historian, definitely look toward the past to understand the future. And so I think it's time to be voracious readers. I think more than ever. The time of one of my teachers used to tell me, it's always good to slow down to speed up. So the moments are really reading thoughtfully. And I would encourage this next generation to as well
00:45:41
Speaker
to forge relationships across disciplines because they really help enrich how you think and view the world. And then also forge those relationships across perspectives too as well. I think for me, best relationships are the dinner parties with individuals who absolutely don't agree with anything I have to say at all. Those really help tremendously.
00:46:07
Speaker
Mohammed, this has been an absolutely fantastic call, so thank you very much for joining us. Our producer for this show was Edwin Tran. Our researchers were Alex Smith and Colin Reed. And as a reminder to our listeners, we will be including links to Mohammed's book, America's Other Muslims, Iman W.D. Mohammed, Islamic Reform and the Making of American Islam in the show notes, which can be found at www.HowToGetOnTheWatchlist.com.
00:46:32
Speaker
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00:47:06
Speaker
911, what's the emergency?