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How to Live a Double Life
1.3k Plays22 days ago
In this episode, we speak to Colonel Olivier Mas about his experience as a clandestine officer for France's DGSE, the work that goes into creating backstories, and the high stakes world of covert Human Intelligence.
A graduate of the École de Guerre, Colonel Mas worked for 15 years at the DGSE. His first years were spent in service to a special unit dedicated to undercover operations. It was here that he became adept at establishing a false identity or “legend” in French, to carry out operations around the world. Next, Mr. Mas joined the Intelligence Directorate, where he was successively responsible for counter-terrorism activities and political intelligence as well as counter-espionage. Twice, he acted as head of station in sensitive areas overseas and/or high-security environments. Mr Mas left active service in the summer of 2017 to launch a YouTube channel called « Talks with a Spy » (which now boasts 174,000 subscribers). He is the author of two books on the world of intelligence: Profession : Espion (Profession: Spy) from the publishing house Les Éditions Hoëbeke, and J’étais un autre et vous ne le saviez pas (I was someone else and you didn’t know it) from the publishing house Les Éditions de l’Observatoire. Mr. Mas is an expert lecturer and regular speaker for both private companies (Air France, Vinci, Matra, Rothschild group, etc) and for the media. His latest project — a novel entitled Le Walk-In (The Walk-In) — will be published by the publishing house Les Éditions Flammarion in October 2024.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Series
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to How to Get on a Watchlist, the new podcast series from Encyclopedia Geopolitica. um In each episode, we'll sit down with leading experts to discuss dangerous activities. From assassinations and airliner shootdowns through to kidnappings and coups, we'll examine each of these threats through the lenses of both the Dangerous Act to seeking to conduct these operations and the agencies around the world seeking to stop them. In the interest of operational security, certain tactical details will be omitted from these discussions.
00:00:34
Speaker
However, the cases and threats which we discuss here are very real.
Meet the Experts: Louis H. Prisant and Laxander Shokiewicz
00:01:02
Speaker
nine one one what's the emergency I'm Louis H. Prisant, the founder and co-editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica. I'm a researcher in the field of intelligence and espionage with a PhD in intelligence studies from Loughborough University. I'm an adjunct professor in intelligence at Science Pro Paris, and in my day job, I provide geopolitical analysis and security-focused intelligence to private sector corporations.
00:01:25
Speaker
I'm Laxander Shokiewicz, a co-editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica, a multilingual security and intelligence professional with masters in international security from Strasbourg Paris. I've served in both consulting and in-house roles, bridging the gap between analysis and operations, and focusing on threat identification and monitoring, geopolitical intelligence and strategy, and security support to various public and private audiences.
Background of Colonel Olivier Maas
00:01:46
Speaker
so In today's episode, we're talking about how to live a double life. and Joining us for this is Colonel Olivier Maas. A graduate of the École de Guerre, Colonel Maas worked for 15 years at France's intelligence service, the DGSE. His first years were spent in service to a special unit dedicated to undercover operations. It was here that he became adept in establishing a false identity or a legend in French to carry out operations around the world.
00:02:11
Speaker
Next, Olivia joined the intelligence directorate where he so was successively responsible for counterterrorism activities and political intelligence, as well as counter-aspionage. Twice he acted as head of station in sensitive areas overseas and or high security environments.
00:02:26
Speaker
Olivier left active service in the summer of 2017 to launch a fantastic YouTube channel called Talks with a Spy, which now boasts 174,000 subscribers. He's the author of two books on the world of intelligence, Profeshion Espion, Profeshion Spy, from the publishing house Liz Addison's Obeg,
00:02:42
Speaker
and Je t'en autre et vous nous les savivards, I was someone else, and you didn't know it, from the publishing house, Les Editions de l'Observatoire. Olivier is an expert lecturer and a regular speaker for both private companies, such as Air France, Vinci, Matra, and Rothschilds Group, and for the media. And his latest project, a novel entitled Le Walk-In, The Walk-In, will be published by the publishing house, Les Editions, Flamerien, in October. So, Olivier, thank you very much for joining us.
00:03:09
Speaker
Thank you for your invitation. so The question we always like to ask a guest, but with ah with a background and a career like yours, i'm I'm really eager to ask this one. How did you find yourself in this type of work? How did you get into a career like this?
00:03:22
Speaker
you know my My father was a military officer from Saint-Cyr, the French equivalent for ah West Point or Saint-Hertz for the British. ah So I joined the army myself, and during 13 years I was in the regular army, with four year four years spent in the special forces.
00:03:41
Speaker
And then at some point of my career, I decided that I wanted to join the secret services. And so here here it is. I mean, ah um my father has a friend who was a member of Zdek. It was the former name of the GEC. And it looked fun. I mean, he has a lot of stories to tell.
00:04:03
Speaker
Not in details of course everything was a bit secret but it was a mystery and so I wanted to to be part of this dream and mystery and i'm not so I was not disappointed by it the first years and all my career in DGC.
00:04:23
Speaker
That's amazing.
Why Use Undercover Agents?
00:04:24
Speaker
So why do intelligence agencies use condensed and operative such as yourself? what's the What's the advantage of having those people who can go undercover in situations like that? Most of the operatives working for intelligence services, they they have the same they work in the embassies, and they have ah diplomatic passports, and they are conducting operations under their real name. But sometimes it's not sufficient. I mean, you have sources, contacts, people that you want to get into contact with,
00:04:59
Speaker
And they won't accept to speak to an official, to speak to a real spy, or some someone they know that she's he's a spy, or her spy I mean, she's a spy. So it can be interesting for Secret Services to to have people with a legend, as we say in in French, so with a fake ID, a fake name, a fake ah job. So it can be a history teacher, hi as I was.
00:05:28
Speaker
Can be a journalist it can be a humanitarian worker you know something like that so yeah in some cases it's very important and. Imagine you're a Russian spy, too. You are an enemy here for a lot of countries in the world, especially now with the war in Ukraine. So it's important for for them to create legends of people that are coming from South America. We saw a lot of examples like that. So the Russian spy is he's an Argentinian citizen and he can speak ah perfectly ah good and Spanish.
00:06:09
Speaker
And so this helps too. And in the French doctrine also, um what is very interesting sometimes is to use this kind of agent in very sensitive areas where it's the civil war and where you don't have an embassy. I mean, the embassies are closed because it's it's becoming too dangerous.
00:06:29
Speaker
or the country where you are sent in is too big. So you have the capital thousands of miles away and you have an area where you want to get into and you want to get the intelligence out of this specific area. And so you don't have as the embassy, of course, it's too far. So you send this kind of operators and this this can be very useful.
00:06:54
Speaker
So, given that a clandestine agent can't use you know the traditional diplomatic communications channels, how do you communicate with your home agency when you're undercover? And then I'm thinking back to TV shows like Libero de Legends, the the excellent French series about the the DGSE's clandestine unit, where they have you know handlers that they talk to. Do you have one dedicated handler? And how often do you talk to them? How how do those communications work?
Communication Complexities for Clandestine Officers
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah, for clandestine offices, these communications tools is the key, of course. And it can be problematic. I mean, it's it's the way the counter espionage team can locate you because you you have a secret device, because you have you have communication with your with your country, and everybody can discover that you you are spies. So communication is tricky.
00:07:46
Speaker
I have an example of one of my books, you know, of two Israeli agents, clandestine, su les gens, in the 50s that are very famous, you know, Cohen in Damascus, and Wolfgang Latz, who was sent to Cairo. And both of them were detected because of their communication with Israel.
00:08:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's a tricky business. so Most of the time you have a computer and you have something hidden in your computer that allows you to to have some communication. You can send text messages, you can send pictures, and and you can can sometimes have a video exchange with your handler. he's He's not a handler because you're an agent. I mean, you you know what you're doing, but it's it's a help and it's a communication. It's someone who who yeah look after you and so it's it's a time of relief because you are hiding everything ah with all the people you're talking to most of the during all the day and once a week for instance you have this 10 minutes walk with someone that know who you are
00:09:07
Speaker
And you can speak ah truly ah with ah with this ah this guy or this woman, and its ah communication is very important. And what I like, there is a ah sequence in the Bureau de Légence, you mentioned this TV show, the French TV show.
00:09:25
Speaker
and which is very realistic. And it starts with ah communication between the main character and with ah the handler. And he's lying to to the handler. And when I see that, I mean, of course, there's something that is not going doing well. I mean, it's tricky, it's wrong, it's totally wrong. So So that there must be a total trust, of course, between the agent Soudéjand on the ground and the handler who is in Paris.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah, you mentioned that that communications lifeline is is really important, both from an operational perspective, but also from a psychological perspective as well for the person who's on the ground. What do you do if you lose contact with your home agency while you're on mission? how How does that work? How do you sort of realize that the contact has been cut and what do you do next? How do you decide what your next steps will be? It never happens. Or at least it never happened to me.
00:10:26
Speaker
we try to manage. if if If we have a problem, we'll manage to solve it. we' We'll find a solution. And I think that in the French system at GEC, we are ah selecting our clandestine officers in the way that they are You can put them in the middle of ah nowhere, and they will always find a way to to find the contact and to ah to call back the agency to find solutions.
Traits of Ideal Clandestine Operatives
00:10:54
Speaker
You know, when when you are a handler is in Paris, your service is in Paris, and you are in the middle of Sahel, if you have a problem, a girl solve this. You're alone, so you have to do it yourself. And and this this ah will happen like this. I mean, you will find the solution yourself. You train for that.
00:11:14
Speaker
So that that brings me on to a question about what what sort of person makes a good clandestine operative? And you mentioned your background in the military, where I think there's often a very similar mindset of you know you face with a problem, don't just wait for orders, solve it. Is it mainly former soldiers? How you know how how do you profile someone to be in such a high pressure role?
00:11:35
Speaker
Yeah, in this a small unit in France, people are selected. It's not is is half or maybe one third of military background and the others are civilian. You don't want to appear as ah as a spy, so it's very good to have ah people that have no military background. myself I had the problem that when I had civilian steam for training in Paris, ze will ah they will tell that tell me that, oh, be careful, you're a little bit formal, or we can see that you are a former military. and So that was a little bit something ah problematic for me, but I had to to solve this this problem. So we have a lot of civil civilians background ground agents in this in this work.
00:12:23
Speaker
I think that's maybe it can be a problem, but I think in the small team we have been inside. We don't have a lot of the structures or the procedures. We are easygoing, or cowboys, things like that. ah ah We like to travel. We like to travel on our own. We like people. We like to discuss. We left to we we are interesting in people.
00:12:51
Speaker
We like exchanges with people. we People trust us. So I think ah women are men that were inside these specific units. We are all seem like and we have the same capacities. And so sometimes so you would say to the service, oh, I think that this one should fit well in our unit. So let's try. let's ah Try is this this guy or this woman unless we want them to pass the tests and the training to see if it's green light and so it were it it was the way it works.
Training Undercover Agents: Confidence in Deception
00:13:31
Speaker
I want to go back to what you said earlier about the the training, and and you've referred to the fact that these undercover operators are trained to essentially face any kind of situation that they may have to deal with by themselves while in the field. What does the training look like for these operators? How long does it last? What do the tests look like? Is this something you can tell tell us a little bit more about?
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, you have to build the trust of the agents. So there is a lot of training while you are in Paris and you have to lie to people. And you see the the training that we've seen in an American movie with the spy games, you know, you have to appear in a window. So I did and this exercise, the exact exact same exercise before I saw the movie. you know it was And so this is very helpful because ah the guy who trained me asked me, you see this second floor, you have to appear on the window. okay And he asked me, ah what will you do? what will What is your idea? So I had to think, what could I do?
00:14:42
Speaker
And I tried, to yeah, maybe ah i'm a I'm a security official and the president will go in this street. And so I have to check from the windows if there is a, you know, this is very bad. Find something else. Ah, okay.
00:14:57
Speaker
ah So maybe yeah um'm i'm leaving with the neighbors our ah on the next floor and my kids was playing with the balloon and the balloon fell ah on on the balcony and so i have to find the balloons for my kids and said this is a good one. And so it worked very well. so um I knock at the door and I explain my problem with the balloon and and obviously it worked and it was a lady and I came in and I had access to them to her apartment and to the balcony. And so this kind of example and training give you trust. i mean If you are confident in the lie you are giving to people and you do it in a spanning way and
00:15:45
Speaker
everything Everything goes well. It works. Really, it works. It's really easy. If you have a a nice face and you're smiling at attitude, it you can sell everything. That sounds fascinating. and so You talked about this training. Is this standardized for everyone, or is there sort of a standard length, or would it depend on the person and the the capacities that they already come come in with?
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah, interesting, but yeah, it's it's formalized. I mean, every agent are going through the same kind of exercises. There is the this cafe exercise also, we saw it in the TV show Le Bure de Le Gendre. It's the same kind of exercise. I mean, that you are in a coffee and you have ah your training training officer officer is inside the coffee and you have to engage with someone.
00:16:36
Speaker
and to make him or make her ah talk about ah their life. And and at at the end yeah you have to makeup make him or make her talk a lot and to have her telephone numbers at the end.
00:16:50
Speaker
So the same ah when you have this habit to to do it regularly and it and it's working well, and it's ah it's a good exercise. So lots of people from DGEC are doing doing this kind of this CAFE exercise. And I would say that the female officers are ah doing a ah wonderful
Crafting Authentic Cover Identities
00:17:10
Speaker
job. I mean, it's more easier it's easier for them because ah they as it who is the the man and ask and they ask them a telephone number and is very ah delighted to to give them that telephone number. And they are never called back, they're very disappointed.
00:17:26
Speaker
Ah, excellent. um Talking a little bit more about the recruitment, how do these les gens get recruited by the DJSU? Is there, for example, a different pool of people for, say, the technical staff and then the people who get pulled pulled into these les gens jobs? um or Or are they taken from sort of the same pool? Is there an official recruitment page where you can apply? How how does that work? I've seen a few things pop up, but I'd love to hear your perspective on this.
00:17:50
Speaker
No, nothing official, of course. Usually, this unit recruits inside the GC, so people that have always been inside. And this is something interesting and good because they know how the intelligence works. They know how the analyst is he's looking for. And so when you are on the ground, you you have the idea of what speech of intelligence will be intersting in Paris and how the analyst will write his report to our authorities.
00:18:24
Speaker
So it's very good, I think, to recruit from inside the service ah some people that will be the fit will fit the job. But sometimes you have some specific profiles of people, engineers, you know, like like always the Cérie Bure de Légion, there is this engineer working on nuclear facilities,
00:18:47
Speaker
And so this is very interesting because you can send her directly in in Iran and and she'll be ah credible because yeah she has all the background. If I so sent me in Tehran on this field working on nuclear issues, of course, they will detect me immediately. so So sometimes for specific profiles, we'll try to recruit someone from outside.
00:19:14
Speaker
and so um yeah make an interview, make a proposition, and and then if the people accept, make the tests and and try to to train it. And this kind of profile, wants the training will be different. It won't be inside the service. The official ah buildings, of course, it will be trained from outside in Paris, and in clandestine facilities.
00:19:42
Speaker
so That raises a really interesting question. You talked about living as a history teacher, for example. you know Was that chosen because you had ah a good knowledge of history? I imagine you wouldn't be a very good history teacher if they asked you a question you couldn't answer. and do they Do they try and craft cover identities that you can live as like an actor playing out a role, or or do they try and find something more authentic to who you already are?
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean the key for a good legend, ah for um it's the ah more possible to your real well to your real identity, of course. its If you are discovered or you have the security agency on the people in the country where you're you're working,
00:20:28
Speaker
that has ah some doubt about you, so you'll be interrogated, and I will ask you some questions, can be very detailed questions about ah where do you live, describe the the building, where you live, what what do you found around this building, you take the the train station, what is the name of the train station, etc., etc. So thus in a legend, you have so many things to so remember.
00:20:57
Speaker
If it's so far from the things you know, it's it's it's not possible. So yeah, it's why personally I chose this and this history teacher guy, because of course, yeah, i I like history, I know history. My former wife was ah was a teacher too.
00:21:18
Speaker
And so I had some meetings and dinners with ah with her colleagues and very annoying ah dinners sometimes, not because of the teachers, of course, but you know, when you stick together, you always speak about your everyday life and administrative work and So I had i had the these discussions between teachers. I knew how ah they were going. So I was able to fake the fact that I was yeah a history teacher. So I think this is important. And when it's not possible, because you remember, yeah if you are a Russian agent and you you have to create something totally different,
00:22:05
Speaker
and a real new history background and so on. but So the Russians, what they do is that they they are trained and they are sent to ah a country and they live before being active and collecting actual intelligence. there They can spend years living their fake ah life And so thats they create memories ah with the new idea. And when they have to explain who they are and where they're coming through through and and from, they are able to to tell truth.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah. And how long do operatives tend to keep an identity? Is there an average, for example, in an operative's life? Would you say, I don't know, you have five, six, or or is that really varying significantly depending on the person and and how long the career is, of course? Is there sort of an average of time that you would keep one identity?
Sustaining a Cover: Challenges and Duration
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's so long to create an identity if it's working and it has not been discovered, you keep the same identity for years. For France, I mean, it's it's exhausting and to be ah to be sent abroad with is the fake idea to be to have to lie to everybody all the time for so long. so i mean I think it's not a job that you can do for for for many years. I think that four or six years is a maximum and then do something else.
00:23:39
Speaker
But you can see that some Russians, they they do ah do that for 10, 20 years. But I think this is a a little bit extreme. And I don't think that other services ah like the Americans or the British are doing this on this period of time. Yeah, that makes sense. And another another question on that. How important are language skills in all of this? And do you ever pretend to not be French as an agent of the déjà su, but be of a different nationality, for example?
00:24:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for a French national, it's not it's not important to to be ah to act so as a foreigner. I could say that I could be Belgian, but so it could be tricky because i some expressions for someone will try me in Belgium. Oh, you don't know. It's too difficult, I think. So no, let's let's be for Michi. All, I think, all clandestine ah agents for France, they are French.
00:24:40
Speaker
and And France is enough neutral that you can ah you can use this ah this background ah all over the world without any problems. I know that sometimes Americans, I pretend they are Canadians, it's easier.
00:24:57
Speaker
but so that the language is so ah they have the same accent, a certain extent, so it's easier for them. so But for me, no i mean I speak English, obviously you can you can see that, not very well, ah not enough to pretend that I'm not French, or you can see ah an accent. So so no, yeah for my missions as a clandestine agent, I was French.
00:25:25
Speaker
That makes perfect sense. I'm thinking of the inglorist bastards as well, where the counting sort of gives away the person, right?
Avoiding Recognition: Changing Appearances
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing to see India in Italian. Oh yeah, you speak Italian.
00:25:41
Speaker
In our last episode, we spoke with John Amendez, the CIA's former chief of disguise, about faking an identity and the technical support that goes into that. We talked about yeah masks, ID documents, covert cameras, and other gadgets. but But for you as an operator on the ground, what were the most important elements that you felt contributed to successfully getting through your mission, not getting caught?
00:26:03
Speaker
You know, as ah as a former officer in the army, I had to change my physical appearance. I changed my cut my my hair were were longer. And I could, before going before being sent abroad on a mission, I could see in the metro in Paris that the officers in civil enclosures that were in the metro, sometimes you recognize yourself. You have a glimpse. ah You said, oh, you're you're the one. you You are an officer like me. And because of my new haircut, you know the my former colleagues, were nobody will look at me and say, okay, um this is right. So I'm trying to become the legend and to live the the the legend I'm supposed to
00:26:51
Speaker
to live with. So that was one of the key for me. It was yet to change my appearance. and then the And then you have your fake documents that i have been forged officially by different means. This is this is sensitive, so I can't explain really. But you're really you have the trust in your idea. I mean, it's a true fake idea. And so when you are going abroad and you are you've been screened at the airport,
00:27:26
Speaker
you're totally convinced that your idea is gonna work. and And so this helped a lot. have You have your fake ideas, it's the wrong name, you know, but it's real pictures and the document is won't be detected.
Risks of Being Discovered Undercover
00:27:41
Speaker
And what are the biggest risks of living undercover then?
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah, the bigger risk is it is to be discovered, of course. And all the um the clandestine agents, they have nightmares like this, especially for the one that's ah being as working for for for many years. i did Some nights, they have the nightmares that so everybody in the street recognizes him and says, oh, he's the one. He's a Russian spy. He's a French the spy. He's working for DGEC and so on.
00:28:15
Speaker
So you're always scared of that. And because you are not protected protected by your diplomatic idea, if you are detected the the country where you are operating, they can keep you in in prison for four years. And so this is not very nice. Of course, you're working in in Iran, and I don't know, in Pakistan, or countries like that, that are not very friendly, or even in Russia. i mean with a legend, if you are detected, you're you're going to you know that you're going to spend months or years in prison. And this is not funny, of course.
00:28:59
Speaker
And if you are a regular spy working in your embassies, the I mean, the risk is less bigger, of of course. I mean, you're if you're detected, you'll you'll be sent back to your country. It's not very nice because you're here with your families. You have your apartment. And and one one day, the next day, is tomorrow, you have to leave. You take your plane, and you're back home, ah and you have failed. And you have to to face the and the failure of your mission.
00:29:29
Speaker
But you're alive and you're safe and free, back to your country. As a clandestine operative, I mean, you're you're sure that so you'll be you'll be sent to prison. And if you're working in, i was as ah I was doing that also in Sahel, in contact with terrorist groups, I mean, it's not the prison that you're facing, it's the it's the death. So, of course, it's it's a stressful, stressful work for sure.
Returning to Normal Life: Post-Mission Challenges
00:29:58
Speaker
And I'd like to dig a little bit more into this, what actually happens when you return from an undercover mission. So you mentioned how stressful that environment is. There there must be some kind of rehabilitation happening once you return um and how long until you get redeployed. What do you do in the meantime? How does how does that work? And one last question instead of bundling that as well together is what does a what does that mean for sort of your personal life as well? You know, moving around like this and and having to live under a fake identity.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes it's not very formalized also. I mean, EDGC, or at at least at my time. So ah what you have to do at the end of your mission also is to cut the ties with the contacts, the foreign contacts you had before.
00:30:46
Speaker
You don't want to do that abruptly because someone and the and switch off your telephone and and throw away your telephone and never answer to the phones. This will attract doubts in the mind of people. So you keep your your phone ah active for a couple of weeks and months. You answer the phone sometimes. you And I remember one of my missions ah after after one of my missions, I received a phone call from a driver ah with who I spent so many hours together. We were in the desert, we have no lights, no electricity, so we spent days and days speaking about everything and and we had a real friendship, something very strong.
00:31:34
Speaker
And it was really hurtful not being able to to call him back. and to So he just listened to my voice recorded message. But also i heard I heard his voice and I really wanted to pick up the phone and said, hey, oh how are you doing? And that was not possible. So yeah, this is this is difficult, of course.
00:31:59
Speaker
One problem also for the clandestine operative is sometimes you are ah living, experiencing a life with ah danger, with adrenaline, with a lot of pleasure also, because with danger comes the pleasure and but so you're living a yeah, a life with very intense life and you come back in your small house in the bonjour in the suburb of Paris and with your boring wife or something. I don't know. ah so some sometimes Sometimes there is a difference that is difficult to live with. In my ah example, my own example,
00:32:41
Speaker
I mean, I think that my character of I was playing this history teacher was boring. And my real life was maybe better than than the one I had for my legends. So it was easier for me to come back. And of course, I was ah eager to to see my family and my wife again, for sure. But I have some friends, you know, we had some were photographs, war photographs.
00:33:08
Speaker
but All people were dealing with mafias and living with big cars and parties or champagne. And so coming back to something a more normal life was sometimes not very easy, for of course.
00:33:24
Speaker
So this is a problem. And your last question it was the difficulty of of living your real life with your family life. And this is for a clandestine operative, something very important. so Because you are some someone else, I mean, it's totally forbidden for you to contact your family once you are abroad.
Impact on Family Life: Long Absences
00:33:45
Speaker
So if you send for one year, it's one year with no communication at all with your wife.
00:33:51
Speaker
So we try, sometimes we do two months missions and so on. So you you just receive some news about your family.
00:34:02
Speaker
through your text messages that are ah read by your handlers, of course, because you know it's been it's going to be read. So so it's really factual and very boring news. So it's very difficult for the family, of course, but also I found it so interesting for a couple because you have no news about two months and when you're When you're back with your family and with your wife, I mean, it's the honeymoon again. We've been speaking with Olivier Maas about how to live a double life. After the break, we'll talk about how counterintelligence teams and hostile groups try to detect, prevent, and respond to infiltration.
00:34:55
Speaker
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00:35:20
Speaker
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00:35:39
Speaker
So Olivier, you've talked about how all that everything that goes into infiltrating an organization or going undercover.
Detecting Undercover Operatives
00:35:47
Speaker
What are the signs that that your adversary, you know a counterintelligence agent might look out for that that could give some away who who is living under a legend, who's not who they say they are? Yes, you can understand that something is going wrong if you have a surveillance on you. ah You can notice that someone is following you some details so ah or your your bedroom has been checked because you place your your books and your wallets and your suitcase in a certain way. i mean like It's a classic of the movies, but yeah sometimes you you do that. so
00:36:21
Speaker
You know that someone came into your your house while while you are you were not there. And so, of course, this is a serious warning. But sometimes there is only a doubt. So you have to play the game. You are under stress. Of course, it's ah it's a difficult time. If you have the opportunity to report the incident to to your service, that's good.
00:36:47
Speaker
But it's why you are trained and why you have built your legend for years before being sent on an operation. Even if you are contacted by a local service for interrogation, your legend should be strong enough so that you can answer the questions and make their doubts disappear. Sometimes there are no more doubts. They know who you are.
00:37:16
Speaker
And they call you and it's just for not for interrogation. they they You go directly to prison. But you never know. This is the tricky part. And are there any measures that the groups that you may infiltrate as ah as a clandestine operative, um are there any measures that they put in place to detect those legendes? Is there any sort of screening or vetting that you've seen throughout your career that they may that they may employ to to do that?
00:37:42
Speaker
I mean, the one who are trained to detect lesions is really the the police officers or the country espionage officers of the local services. So, yes, they have this trick. i mean it's It's always the same kind of interrogation process. i mean they They ask you questions.
00:38:00
Speaker
And they pass ah one or two hours, and they come back with the same questions. And if your answer is different, there's a problem. and they So this is this is the kind of tricks they use. And and this is why you have to to have experienced your legend real real. Because even if they ask you the same and same questions day after day, you you you'll tell the truth. You'll try what you have experienced in your double life. and Yeah, it works like that. you know I imagine that that scenario where you're being questioned, that's that's really you know the worst place to be. I imagine if a mission goes right, you you never experience that. But in those kind of experiences, you know when when things have gone wrong and you're under scrutiny, what is it that catches people out? Is it bad tradecraft? Is it that they crumble under questioning? You know you mentioned answering the same way every day. as Is it the little details? you know what What is it that goes wrong?
00:38:58
Speaker
You know, ah sometimes you are operating in so sensitive areas with a lot of tensions where you know that all around you, it's only spies and fighters. So there are a lot of doubts on on everybody. So you you spend the first weeks and months of your deployment to convince people that you are not a spy.
00:39:25
Speaker
So this is one of the tricky parts. I mean, you are in ah you are working in a very critical environment. And so everybody has doubts on everybody. And so it's it's why it's very important to never ask tricky questions.
00:39:45
Speaker
You know, at the same time of of my career, I was working about against criminal, war criminals. And and I've been sent in a city where it's it was known that there were a lot of criminals, of these criminals, and I had to detect them.
00:40:03
Speaker
Of course, I never, never ask a single questions about these war criminals. And everybody sometimes asks me, oh, are you not interested in in these people? And oh, no, not at all. I'm not interested. I'm not dealing with that. And of course, ah I was all ears. So i think I think this is one of the things that will help you never ask too many questions. Let the people do the the talking with you. And sometimes you can look surprised or interested and say, oh yeah, funny, interesting. But never go too too far on that on that slope. Don't ask too precise questions. And I think that people that have been detected, maybe it's one of the mistakes they make,
00:40:52
Speaker
They are too rushy and they want to have results and they want to get the intelligence fast quickly to send a good report to Paris and to be rewarded for the good piece of intelligence. No, yeah you have one, two weeks, one month and you'll get your you'll get your intelligence. So don't don't rush. Take your time.
00:41:11
Speaker
patience being an important virtue in intelligence work as well. like ah you You did talk earlier about noticing surveillance and other signs that you're being watched or suspected um and maybe even having doubt that they know. Is there any protocol that tells you when you should leave or or and how you should leave potentially?
00:41:31
Speaker
yeah As I told you that in in the French system, we are not very good with protocols. You you send the the signals that you have detected to your authorities in Paris and and they will have meetings and they will discuss and and they will decide if they have to call you back. And so there's no protocols, but so the the people who know, they are all experienced people, ah guys or women and so on. And so they will have a meeting.
00:42:00
Speaker
And at the end of the meeting, they will have to take the decision, okay, we'll well we'll pull him back. ah It's too dangerous. It's too risky. So there is no protocol. I mean, in the French system, as I told you, yeah there will be a meeting and it will be decided at the end, what will we'll do with the the covert agent. Because of course, you know, it's a work that's collapsed.
00:42:21
Speaker
ah it's so ah It's a legend that you have been building for years, so it's tricky to to destroy this cover if it's not necessary. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And did you and your org ever have any near misses in situations like this? and Anything where you sort of were close to things going potentially very, very wrong?
00:42:44
Speaker
during my time as a special i mean Special Forces Officer in my mission against war criminals. At this point, my fake ID was made off with my first my real first name, and my last name was was fake. And so at some point of my mission, in the middle of my mission, I answered the phone.
00:43:11
Speaker
And after my my real first name, I told my true last name, so my true ID id on the phone. That was terrible. That was a terrible mistake. But so I heard that the guy I was talking to knew me through my first name, and he didn't notice my mistake. So but that that was very uncomfortable uncomfortable for with me. i I sent immediately the message to my authorities in Paris and said, okay, I made this mistake. ah So we decided to to stay and I think it was a good decision because ah yeah obviously ah the people I was talking to through the phone didn't notice my mistake.
00:43:59
Speaker
But for the next missions I did with DGC, I can tell you that everything was faked for my first name and and last names. And I think it's a better option because your real identity, I mean, for for for decades, you you are used to to say your first and last names at the same time. So so it's very dangerous. I will advise to my the other colleagues to to change all their names and first names. So I'm curious about what happens you know when a mission has gone successfully and at some point, or maybe unsuccessfully, and an organization realizes it's been infiltrated, that it has clandestine adversary officers in their ranks.
Infiltration Aftermath for Organizations
00:44:48
Speaker
What happens to them? you know I imagine it has a huge psychological impact.
00:44:53
Speaker
It's terrible for an organization to have been tricked, and so they they didn't see. and After that, there was a work to be done inside this organization. They said, okay, ah who talks to this guy, this woman? What did you say? What was the subject? What were the questions? What are the secrets that you were able to to extract from us? and So there is a lot of meetings to be done, conducted with all the people that have been in contact with this clandestine operative that has been detected, but too late and now he's back to France or back to his country of origin. origin So yes, of course, it's ah it's a drama sometimes because you people, they they they feel betrayed, they they put the trust in you and it worked and there was
00:45:46
Speaker
totally convinced that you were not a spy and so they gave you ah pieces of information. i mean ah the guy you know the The guy from Mossad, Wolfgang Glatz, his fake ah idea, he was ah he was originally for from Germany.
00:46:05
Speaker
and he was pretending he was a former ne Nazi ah officer for who Jewish guy infiltrated. So all his friends that were Egyptian friends so working in the army at very high rank, they told them lots of success secrets. And after that, they they discovered he was working for Mossad. And so that that was a terrible shock, of course. and For the career, it's terrible. The career was over, and the French ship was totally destroyed, of course.
Realism of Spy Shows vs. Reality
00:46:42
Speaker
We've talked a lot that in this episode about the TV show Le Bureau de Legends. I have a very soft spot for this show. i When I was learning French, this was one of the shows that really helped me help me learn it. And for any English speakers listening, and it's available as the Bureau with English subtitles, and it's a very good look into French our undercover work. You mentioned earlier, Olivier, that you found it quite realistic. Were there any aspects of the show you thought were unrealistic that that didn't really reflect the life of a legend?
00:47:11
Speaker
I mean, the main character of the Bureau de la Jean, who would be sacked very well, very quickly, it's ah he survives and remained inside the service for five seasons, I think. So this is not realistic. I mean, the the guy betrayed the trust and ah from the beginning, from day one. So he he works for the Americans and he because he wants to... yeah yeah I mean, he's a freer ah free guy who wants to he is able to cooperate with foreign services because he wants to save his he's lover. So this is totally unrealistic. This is one of the points.
00:47:52
Speaker
I think also nobody's writing anything, you know ah but I think that 80% of the work of a spy is to be behind a desk like a journalist on the computer and writing reports. Of course, you you don't want to see that in
Influence of Spy TV Shows on Public Perception
00:48:09
Speaker
a show. It it will be boring. But the real life of an agent is, yeah, most of the time he's writing rep reports and he's writing reports.
00:48:18
Speaker
So, I mean, it's a very realistic show. They have a good cooperation between the the showrunner and the DDDC. They had a lot of exchanges. They were able to to ask a lot of questions. And so at the end ah of the season, yeah you have some scenes that have been filmed inside the real ah buildings.
00:48:45
Speaker
So you have the aspect of it, the the rooms, so the meeting rooms, and so on. Everything is very realistic. And you have some agents that are not able to speak about what they do to their family, and they tell their families, ah if you want to know what what is my work, go and see Le Bure de Les Jeannes. And you'll know. So yeah, it's close to reality.
00:49:10
Speaker
And this was really nicely in what I was going to ask you next is how do you feel about the role of of shows like the Bureau de Legend and putting the spotlight on intelligence agencies work in general. So you mentioned you saying this, for example, to somebody, you know, you know, watch this and and you'll see what I'm sort of doing. Do you think that these are then useful tools in educating the public about the work or is this something that can maybe even become an obstacle in some situations?
00:49:34
Speaker
I think that the Bure de Les Jeunes for DGC was ah was a dream. I mean, yeah we had huge increase of volunteers to come inside DGC and that that was of course a good thing. And also in the past, I mean, the secret services in France, it's always viewed by ah like something bad, something tricky, something unfair, something with a bad image espionage. It's not like the British were the James Bond or
00:50:06
Speaker
or the heads of the you know the Cambridge or Oxford at the top of the class, they joined the secret services and so on. That was not the case in France. So this kind of shows ah is is has been doing a very good work and in improving the image in France for their secret services. And that I would see, and the work also I'm doing through my YouTube channel, for my books, my conferences, is doing the same thing, I think, to And it's one of my goal to give to the audience and the public the image of someone who is professionals, who like their country, who follow the rules.
00:50:46
Speaker
We are always controlled, very controlled. We can do we can't do ah everything we want, even if we are protected by fake ideas. We could we have techniques that the mafia is using exactly the same techniques. I mean if you i use my fake ideas to do a tricky business and and disappear after that. Of course, i I'll be sent to prison immediately. so We are living in a world that is controlled by laws, by people that are sensitive sensible and things like that. So yeah, yeah I think it's this kind of show is very important to to improve this image. So the final question we'd like to ask, I guess, and I think given given a lot of the tensions you've talked about in ah in a job like this, I'm really interested in your answer. you know When you were living as ah as a clandestine, what what kept you up at
Fears and Worries of Living Undercover
00:51:39
Speaker
night? What what were the big nightmare scenarios?
00:51:42
Speaker
If I'm detected, ah what will happen? Will I will be able to to see my familiar again? ah Will my service know that I have been disappeared? ah how How many days it will last before they they send the alarm? Is there something is is just wrong with Olivier if he's not answering and so on? So these kind of problems yeah I was thinking about and and After that, so will I will be able to, if I go to prison, how many months or years I will spend there. so yeah this This was sometimes the kind of ideas I had. I can imagine it was an incredibly tense line of work. Olivier, thank you very much for joining us. ah It was a pleasure to discuss with you. Thank you.
00:52:32
Speaker
You've been listening to How to Live a Double Life with Olivier Maas. Olivier's books, Professor en Espión, Je t'en autre, et vous ne l'sabe pas, as well as his new book, Le Walk-In, will all be linked to our show notes and we encourage any of our French readers in particular to take a look. Our producer for this show was Edwin Tran and our researcher was Alex Smith. To all our listeners and our Patreon supporters, thank you very much for listening to and supporting How to Get on a Watchlist.
00:52:58
Speaker
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