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How to Deliver a Ransom
391 Plays2 days ago
Following on from the episode “how to hijack a ship” in Season 1 of this show, in this episode we sit down with Rob Phayre. Rob was a director of a crisis management consultancy based in East Africa during the peak of Somali Piracy. He worked on more than 40 kidnap for ransom cases with the majority being the release of vessels and crew kidnapped by pirates. He spent more than 18 years living in Africa following a military career as a helicopter pilot. Rob currently works for a global energy company, and in his spare time is an author of military thrillers, including "The Ransom Drop", "Jungle Heist", and "The Insurgency".
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Transcript
Introduction to Risky Geopolitical Activities
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to How to Get on a Watchlist, the new podcast series from Encyclopedia Geopolitica. um In each episode, we'll sit down with leading experts to discuss dangerous activities. for From assassinations and airliner shootdowns through to kidnappings and coups, we'll examine each of these threats through the lenses of both the Dangerous Act to seeking to conduct these operations and the agencies around the world seeking to stop them. In the interest of operational security, certain tactical details will be omitted from these discussions.
00:00:34
Speaker
However, the cases and threats which we discuss here are very real.
Hosts and Guest Speaker Introduction
00:01:01
Speaker
back correct nine one one what's the emergency I'm Louis H. Poussin, the founder and co-editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica. I'm a researcher in the field of intelligence and espionage with a PhD in intelligence studies from Loughborough University. I'm an adjunct professor in intelligence at Science Pro Paris, and in my day job, I provide geopolitical analysis and security-focused intelligence to private sector corporations.
00:01:25
Speaker
I'm Cormac McGarry. I'm an Associate Director at the Global Specialist Consultancy Control Risks, where I help companies from every sector understand the implications of global geopolitical issues on their business.
00:01:39
Speaker
so In Season 1 of this show, we did an episode on how to hijack a ship. so Today's episode, I think, is a real sequel to that topic. ah so Today, we're going to be talking about how to deliver a ransom. and To do this, we are talking with Rob Fair. Rob was director of a crisis management consultancy based in East Africa during the peak of Somali piracy. He worked on more than 40 kidnap
Rob Fair's Career Transition and Somali Piracy
00:02:00
Speaker
and ransom cases with the majority being the release of vessels and crew kidnapped by pirates. He spent more than 18 years living in Africa following a military career as a helicopter pilot.
00:02:09
Speaker
Rob currently works for a global energy company and in his spare time is an author of some fantastic military thrillers and Rob's books will be linked in the show notes. So Rob, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks very much, Lewis. It's a pleasure to be here. So Rob, not a very standard career that most people would expect. How did you get into this line of work? Well, just over about 20 years ago, I just left the British military where I'd been a head of guard to pilot as you just mentioned. and ah very much enjoyed that as something fun and challenging. But I left after only seven years. It sounds a little bit odd perhaps, but my wife and I wanted to try something even more adventurous. So we sold our house in the UK and we moved to Kenya. I tried a couple of things, but ultimately started working for a friend as a security consultant. It turned out to be a good move from a professional perspective, ah shortly after a number of serious security issues developed in East Africa.
00:03:08
Speaker
For example, 2007 to 2008 was a key period. That was a time that Kenya suffered tragic post-election violence, and also the year that Ethiopia
The Evolution of Somali Piracy
00:03:20
Speaker
invaded Somalia, prompting the evolution of a terrorist group called al-Shabaab. With the Somali government under pressure to manage the terrorism problem, Somali piracy, which had seeded in 2005, exploded rapidly in scale.
00:03:36
Speaker
and over the next eight years, hundreds of vessels would be attacked, thousands of seafarers would be kidnapped, and hundreds of millions of dollars would be paid in ransom. A couple of good friends of mine had just established their own crisis management consultancy. As a result of their experience and their exceptional contacts and abilities, they became one of the go-to organizations to help resolve all sorts of tricky problems. Somali piracy kidnapped for ransom in general was one of them.
00:04:05
Speaker
I was lucky that they approached me to join their team and from then I was able to learn rapidly. I went from being a team member on the ransom drops to leading a team and then ultimately I became a director. And when their company was sold a few years later, I was paid out and I began working for a global energy company as a security and crisis manager. That coincided with my having children and adopting a slightly more risk averse approach to my work.
00:04:35
Speaker
And speaking of risk averse, when we're going to talk a lot about Somali pirates, I guess, in the beginning here. A lot of people, when they think of Somali pirates, they think of a crew of guys in Somalia armed to the teeth
Piracy Business Models and Kidnapping Types
00:04:50
Speaker
and not much else. But there is a business model. As you lay out very well in in your book, The Ransom Drop, these are human beings and they're the whole business model behind what they were doing.
00:05:00
Speaker
Could you lay out for us what what is the business model of Somali pirates specifically? and And if you please, broader kidnapping business models. Yeah, so it's ah it's a good question. What I might do is I might start with briefly refreshing on the types of kidnap.
00:05:20
Speaker
especially as we're going to talk really particularly about ransom delivery. But it's worth saying that having actually listened to a couple of your other podcasts on the show, that how to kidnap an executive ah was a great one. And of course, you mentioned already how to hijack a ship. So I won't repeat anything, but I think if we mentioned three particular types of kidnap, because I want to make some very clear delineation between them. So the first is kidnap for fundamentalist ideology.
00:05:47
Speaker
This is probably the least survivable of the lot. Think horrific live videos, ah beheadings on the internet, and all those kind of things. At the point where you're taken, there is very little that the commercial resolution companies can do for you.
00:06:04
Speaker
You're very much in the hands of any government support that you may be able to receive, and the successful resolution rates are sadly very low for this type of problem. If you're fortunate, your home host government has the law enforcement or military ability to get a successful outcome. The next one is kidnap for extortion. This is a little bit more survivable, for want of a better word, but it depends on the demands. This could be a political group or an organized crime group.
00:06:32
Speaker
or a plain old criminal. Ultimately, somebody has something that the political group or the criminal wants. The question is, will they be willing to give it up for the hostage? That might depend on who the hostage is and what it is that's wanted. Think release of political prisoners, ah radical changes in government policies, etc.
00:06:54
Speaker
A lot of these also end up in military response if the demands are completely outrageous and that's the point where again the risk to the hostage and of course the kidnappers increase considerably. The final one is good old kidnap for ransom and this is my area of historical expertise. This is quite literally a business model. Abduct someone, demand a ransom, which is nearly always cash or cash equivalent,
00:07:21
Speaker
Release that person, survive the crime, share out the spoils, and then roll the dice again. But when that comes to Somali piracy, maritime piracy, this is nearly all entirely the kidnap for ransom model, the business model. And maybe it's best described if I talk through a hypothetical situation. So imagine.
00:07:47
Speaker
A Somali clan chief or warlord, happy in
Pirate Operational Models and Financial Systems
00:07:50
Speaker
his remote part of Somalia, sees some of his neighbouring warlords becoming successful and earning money from piracy. That means that the neighbour is buying more weapons, employing more men, and is upsetting the local equilibrium of power, and that may be unacceptable.
00:08:08
Speaker
So our chief decides to have a go, and given the poverty in the area and the natural skill of his fishing fleets, he's got plenty of volunteers. But what he doesn't have is money. So he borrows it, effectively selling shares of future profit. Interestingly, during the peak of piracy through the Hawala system, you could invest in piracy from outside the country. Kenya, Dubai, London, it was all possible.
00:08:38
Speaker
so Let's say the chief now has the money. He's got $100,000. He sends someone to go and buy the equipment that he needs. He buys three boats, or skiffs as they're called, three brand new engines, satellite phones, weapons, ammunition, ladders, grappling hooks, all of that kind of thing. and Then he sends those three boats out with perhaps four or five crew on each to go fishing.
00:09:02
Speaker
One vessel hits bad weather and sinks, killing those on board. One vessel stays out until it's nearly out of fuel and then returns empty-handed. But the third one's successful and brings back a container ship. Incidentally, when the pirates all get on board, they have to leave their skiff behind and it probably sinks. But the container ship is brought back and the men who captured it now lead a group of 30 or 40 men who'll guard it whilst it's parked offshore outside the village.
00:09:31
Speaker
The chief, speaking no English, employs an interpreter who starts to negotiate with the shipping company that owns the ship. The negotiation goes on for four months. ah During that time, the chief's run out of his original money, but now he needs to feed the guards and keep the crew alive. He makes a deal with local food suppliers and cat suppliers, which is a chewable leaf with narcotic properties, and they charge him triple the price for that credit, but they're happy to wait until the ransom is paid. Eventually, money's delivered and the crew and ship is released. The guards are all paid off and the pirates that captured the ship are paid handsomely. The chief has to pay blood money to those that were killed or lost on the skiff. He pays a share of the final proceeds to those who lent him the money in the first place and then keeps a rest. If I was to add some
00:10:27
Speaker
basic numbers to this, you'll see that there's not actually a lot of money left over. Replacing two skifts, probably 60 grand. Blood money to the families, probably the most expensive and about half a million. The successful pirates get a couple of hundred thousand in total between them. Each of the guards gets about ten dollars a day, so a thousand dollars over three months. Call it 40 grand. However,
00:10:55
Speaker
For every day they were guarding, it probably cost another $20 or so per man per day in narcotics and food. So there's another 60 grand. Repaying the original capital and the share of the profit, 300 grand. Now in the early days, a ransom of between a million and a million and a half was the norm. And that meant the chief made about half a million dollars. If he made that on his first project, then of course he was very happy. But if his first project failed miserably, then he was going to be massively in debt.
00:11:26
Speaker
so You mentioned something there that's really fascinating. You talked about an investment market for future returns in piracy. Who are the sorts of investors playing a market like that? How do they get connected to it? I assume you can't just go to your bank and say, you know hey, here's a hundred grand I want to put on a kidnapping. so How does that work?
00:11:45
Speaker
I think that the Hawala system is fascinating. And again, I think you've got a podcast around money laundering. The Hawala system has got a lot of things to to answer for in some ways, but it allows the free movement of money outside the American banking system, outside the SWIFT system. Ultimately, if you really wanted to, at the peak of Somali piracy, there was a place you could go downtown in central Nairobi, and you could go to that individual and say, here you go. Here's $5,000. I want a profit share of the next project.
00:12:15
Speaker
I'm not saying that that that was something that any of my friends did, but the Somali diaspora who trusted this almost, it feels almost an imaginary banking system, but the Somali diaspora could invest in that and they could invest in particular projects that were based down out of their own local hometowns. To call it a gray area, a gray market really would be an understatement. If you really wanted to get into it, you could.
00:12:42
Speaker
ah but so But again, ah fraught with risk. May I ask briefly, Rob, can you explain the Hawala system? Sure. Yes, so the Hawala system. Ultimately, go downtown, find someone who is one end of a banking transfer system. Physically, give that person $5,000. That person will then make a phone call to someone in another part of the world who also has a ledger and who happens to have a stack of cash.
00:13:12
Speaker
that person will then give $5,000 to the person that you want to send the money to. so Physically, the money has not changed country. It's all done on a book. and Of course, the banking system takes a small fee as a result of being able to do that for you.
00:13:28
Speaker
so Therefore, you can move money and nobody is even vaguely aware. I just want to come back to this ah this chief of yours that you're talking about there. and You sort of mentioned you know that the risks can be quite high if they fail. What happens to failed pirates? Because I imagine they don't always find a boat. They don't always successfully get on board the boat. and you know They may not extract a ransom. What happens in those cases?
00:13:52
Speaker
ah It's a very good question. The failure rate around piracy, whether it was initially going out to sea, not being successful, not recovering a vessel, coming back, you spent a month out at sea, you burnt a lot of fuel, you' fed your you fed your crew, a lot of that would be funded by the Somali warlord. If a crew were successful,
00:14:12
Speaker
Ultimately, they could almost become legendary in their own villages and towns. Successful pirates were incredibly well paid. Quite literally. Originally, it was $150,000 to the first pirate over the rail on a successful kidnap. That's enough in a town where a dollar a day you know absolute basic minimum wage. You win $150,000 by risking your life on one project. All of a sudden, you are a landowner. You're a house owner. You're famous. You've bought yourself a secondhand car. You can set up your own businesses. But successful pirates were very well rewarded because a very large number of people went to sea and did not survive.
00:14:53
Speaker
Now, aside from the blood money that was paid to those families, which of course ah was considerable based upon the traditions in the Somali clan, if you came back and you weren't successful, all you've done ultimately is cost money and your Somali chief may not be happy with that.
00:15:12
Speaker
Now, the cash flow from the Somali warlord in the early days when they didn't have very many successful projects was really tight, and so therefore those who were unsuccessful may not be offered another chance to go out to sea again. They may end up being stuck on the guarding of a vessel when it comes back in. They'll be stuck on getting $300 a month instead of the potential to make it big, to win the lottery if you like.
00:15:39
Speaker
Now, in terms of, and and I don't know enough about, if someone borrowed a very large amount of money through the Hawaii system and was unable to pay it back, I suspect they probably weren't very popular. ah But I don't know what the end impact to them was. That's fascinating. And is this the same everywhere, or do different parts of the world have different types of maritime kidnap and ransom? you know how how How does it look globally?
00:16:04
Speaker
So I think it's it's probably worth mentioning the Somali business model, which we can we can talk a little bit more about when we come to sort of the the negotiation element and how you get to a an agreement. But the Somali business model was enabled ultimately by the fact that a vessel could be captured and brought back onshore, parked just offshore outside the village with relatively little risk to that vessel.
00:16:32
Speaker
as more and more vessels came in and were parked next to each other, they brought more security to each other. You have a lot of armed guards on
Comparing Somali and West African Piracy
00:16:40
Speaker
each vessel. It makes it harder and harder for any kind of military intervention. If you look across at West Africa, where the piracy model is different, in West Africa, whilst there are occasionally hijackings and kidnap for ransom. There are no safe harbors in that part of the world. There's nowhere where you can bring the vessel in and give it easy resupply to hold it for a long period of time. So those hijackings tend to be resolved in in only a matter of days, maybe 10 days, two weeks. What we see in that West Africa environment is a lot more maritime criminality and there we talk about hostile boardings brutal
00:17:21
Speaker
hurting, maiming, killing in order to cause shock, in order to expedite the crime so is that those criminals who board that vessel can steal whatever it is that they want quickly and escape promptly before any military intervention can occur. So it's a very, very different model. A lot more people get hurt in that West Africa model than did before the Somali piracy model started to to fail.
00:17:51
Speaker
What sort of risks are those pirates engaging on when they go out to sea? Obviously, they're facing sea conditions. But what are the kind of defensive risks on the other side? They're going to have their boarding opposed by something, no doubt. There was, as part of the resolution of Somali piracy, there were there were a number of different things that happened. So the first was, and you can imagine by the time it got to 2011,
00:18:17
Speaker
there were hundreds of vessels being attacked each year, and that obviously wasn't successful. It it was impacting on maritime trade. it was It was causing huge costs. It was causing inflation in Europe as as these vessels ended up either having to go the long way around or having to spend a lot more money on insurance and on protection measures.
00:18:35
Speaker
ah number of protection measures were brought in. One was the international naval organisations came together and started to patrol parts of the Indian Ocean where the risk to vessels was quite high. In addition, best management practices were brought in where the shipping companies themselves could implement protection measures. These were things like razor wire, these were things like using fire suppression systems in order to spray jets at ah skiffs as they approached. These were things like um large ah sound devices which which tried to project sound to the point where it hurt as vessels came in. I don't think they were particularly successful, but that was another piece of innovation that happened at the time. and So you had this combination of ah shipping companies changing their routes, putting in place protective measures,
00:19:27
Speaker
some employed armed guards, combined
The Decline of Somali Piracy
00:19:30
Speaker
then with a better response rate from international navies and militaries. A lot of those things started to impact the ability of Somali pirates to capture the vessels. But the thing that I believe really put the nail in the coffin of Somali piracy was actually a fundamental change in the approach around the delivery and payment of ransom.
00:19:54
Speaker
The potential for money to go to a terrorist organization was the thing that ultimately stopped the free and regular payment of ransoms to Somali piracy organizations. Clearly, the Somali pirates were not part of this organization, as I mentioned earlier, called Al-Shabaab. However, the allegation was that Al-Shabaab was starting to demand I'll say protection money from some of these Somali warlords in order to enable them to continue to do that building their business. Now, the problem is, if you start to deliver finance, money, other goods of material value, whatever it might be, to an organization that then is passing that money on to a terrorism group, then as an individual, as ah as a
00:20:43
Speaker
commercial entity as an insurer, as a shipping company, all of you get very quickly into very hot water. And that was one of the key things, I think, along with the physical defensive measures for the ships was actually disrupting the business model. And it took it took several years for something like that to actually take effect. But then you saw the almost the immediate drop off, a very rapid decline in the number of vessels that were captured and the number of vessels that ultimately was then released because of the payment of ransom. It actually resulted in in some fairly tragic cases where a number of vessels which had ultimately been abandoned by the shipping companies, by their owners, the vessels were left literally to rot, to rust, and the crews were left with them. There was a brilliant guy based out of Nairobi, and I'm i'm personally not mentioning any names, but there was a brilliant guy who worked ah with the UN who ultimately managed to secure the release of many of those remaining crews and vessels after
Challenges in Military Interventions
00:21:40
Speaker
it was no longer possible to pay to pay a ransom.
00:21:44
Speaker
so In the second half of the show, we're going to talk more about the kind of negotiations and the payment of the ransom. but and and You've touched on this there, but I'm i'm curious about you know if you're a cutthroat shipping owner, you know why why do you have to pay? Can you not just send in the special forces to rescue the hostages? you know what What are the risks in not paying here? I think in the early days of Somali piracy, that was indeed a consideration.
00:22:09
Speaker
why Why can't you just send in the Special Forces? But its it's exceptionally difficult to do, and probably only a handful of navies in the entire world would be able to do it at scale successfully. And even then, what does success look like? The storming of a ship at anchor, great in the movies, but with 40 armed Somali guards on board, even if they are as high as kites on drugs, it just isn't attractive. ah Hostages and Special Forces team members would die.
00:22:39
Speaker
For context, there were probably times as piracy progressed where there were up to 20 vessels being held in little groups, giving each other mutual defense. Now, if you think about that, 40 guards on each vessel, that's 800 guards, 800 weapons, that's 400 crew members, all of different nationalities, all stuck on these vessels.
00:23:04
Speaker
how How would you, from a military perspective, be able to breach that, to broach that? How would you have the intelligence needed in order to to know where all your hostages were at the point where you brought in the helicopters or the boats or the du or whatever it was? It just became too big a problem to solve.
00:23:23
Speaker
storming a vessel at sea whilst it's only got a small handful of pirates on board immediately after it's just been captured. Now that has been done several times including recently and some of those were successful. Some of them were only partially successful um with a number of fatalities on on the friendly forces side. I think the main problem is the The engine ocean is vast. The ability to respond in a reasonable fast timeframe with the kind of skilled operators that you need by helicopter which only have a limited range in order to conduct that kind of mission. da That's a real problem. The safest outcome for the cruise was exactly the business transaction with all the negative elements that injecting that much cash into a failed state brings.
00:24:12
Speaker
I think it's also worth taking a moment though to talk about ransom payments for someone who's kidnapped onshore. What's the jeopardy there? um The movies will always make you think of a business traveller or a family member or someone wealthy, but in fact, the vast majority of kidnaps
Legal and Jurisdictional Issues in Ransom Payments
00:24:30
Speaker
onshore are local nationals in their home countries.
00:24:33
Speaker
The victims' families in these countries have successfully managed to deal with the problem you know without the big expensive advisory companies or indeed their local government security agencies. I think in part two, we we talk about um you know the kind of money that we're talking and see you know how that compares. On that note, Rob, indeed, shipping is very complicated. ah A ship will not have one singular owner, it will have a ship's owner. It will have a separate manager for the crew. It has someone who's chartered the ship. The mariners themselves are from countries all over the world. We'll speak many different languages. Often you'll have Filipino seafarers mixed with Ukrainian, Russian, Indian, Chinese, Polish. So who actually takes responsibility for the crew? in let's Let's keep it to the Somali piracy case. Who actually takes responsibility to get those people out?
00:25:30
Speaker
I think there's there's a bit of a question around, if you like, the jurisdiction of the crew. There's also a little bit of a question of, is the delivery and payment of a ransom legal? and that's That's quite an important question. And of course, every different country has their own their own sovereign laws, for want of a better word. The jurisdictions can apply internationally as well as apply nationally. The thought process around can you pay a ransom where it's for the humanitarian release of hostages? And the answer to that is yes, you can in nearly every jurisdiction, not all of them, but in nearly every jurisdiction for the humanitarian release of hostages. If someone's life is in danger, then you can justify paying a ransom.
00:26:18
Speaker
and those who pay it are probably protected. However, there are obviously some very big caveats to that and I've already mentioned we never pay anyone who's got anything to do with a terrorist organization ever. There are also some money laundering laws and there are tax laws. There are all sorts of different laws that can apply to the delivery and payment of a ransom. So whilst it's legal potentially to pay a ransom,
00:26:45
Speaker
It's definitely not legal to either hijack a ship, kidnap a person, demand a ransom, or receive the money on behalf of the individuals. I think it's worth talking about some of the complexities. If we were to use your shipping example. So let's talk about where these jurisdictions come from. You could have a Greek-owned ship under a Panama flag. It's insured by a London insurer.
00:27:14
Speaker
with a cargo bound for Holland, and the cargo is owned by a German company. and On onboard there are 20 crews, all with various nationalities, and the captain's an American. The Greek owner wants the cash for the ransom collected from a bank in Dubai, and the team delivering the ransom are a mixture of American, Australian, and British.
00:27:37
Speaker
So where is the legal jurisdiction here? you know how How is anyone going to unravel all of that when a delivery is then made in the offshore Somali economic zone? So who owns that? Who's got the rights of, of if you like, jurisdiction? And I would just say, I think i think there's there's a lot of legal advice that comes with the potential risks of delivering ransomware. We can talk about the movement of money and things in a moment.
00:28:05
Speaker
But whilst there are some countries which of course have very, very clear, you know not making substantive concessions to hostages, that's the UK government stance, there are other governments which will actually both negotiate and pay a ransom on behalf of their citizens. And let's just say if I was ever going to be a hostage, I would rather that I was a French citizen than anyone else, because there's a lot more support that comes from that.
00:28:32
Speaker
I think it's also worth saying that because these problems are so complicated, so difficult, how do you lead on, if you've got a crew with, as you've mentioned, 10 different nationalities, who's going to lead from that from a diplomatic or government perspective? Is it the shipping company? Is it the insurer?
Responsibility in Piracy Cases
00:28:50
Speaker
Is it the Greek shipping company or or the or the um Portuguese? or Or who is it? Who's actually going to run with it?
00:28:57
Speaker
Now, someone somewhere will make that decision. Someone somewhere will take primacy on it. And the response companies that do a lot of this negotiation, working for, for example, the shipping companies, will have a lot of relationships with government entities. And they will manage that. From my perspective, I was never a response consultant. I was never doing the I'll say the communication or the negotiation directly during the phases immediately after a kidnap. But we did do a lot of the deliveries. And what I will say is that during some of those deliveries, we had government representatives with us during the delivery of that ransom. And on some occasions,
00:29:47
Speaker
the Quantum, though, the amount of cash that was delivered had actually been brought into a country in a diplomatic bag and then given to us. And that government representative would then observe the delivery of that ransom to ensure that it had been delivered. I don't think they probably trusted me very much. I think that was probably the problem. um But different governments, different organizations, they take a different approach, depending upon their level of experience and confidence.
00:30:17
Speaker
We're talking to Rob Fair about the fascinating and clearly deadly world of kidnappings and hijackings. After the break, we'll talk about some of the strategies and mechanics around ransom payments and getting people home safe.
00:30:36
Speaker
You have been listening to How to Get on a Watchlist, the podcast series from Encyclopedia Geopolitica. If you like this show, don't forget to check out our other content at Encyclopedia Geopolitica, which you can find at howtogettontowatchlist.com, where you can find our analysis on various geopolitical issues, as well as reading lists covering topics like those discussed in the podcast. Please also consider subscribing to the podcast on your streaming platform of choice, giving us a rating, and joining our Patreon.
00:31:19
Speaker
so In the first
Negotiation Strategies and Risks
00:31:20
Speaker
half, we talked about yeah how a kidnapping happens, how a hijacking happens, but now let's look at this from the side of a victim. and In particular, I'm really curious. you know You've talked a lot about the ransom payments for negotiations. The question that stands out for me is, do you need to negotiate or do you just pay the first demand? you know I imagine some of these companies are quite wealthy. To me, it feels like you know if if I'm a family member of a victim, I'd just be saying, well, just pay them. Let's get our people home. Does that work or do you have to negotiate?
00:31:48
Speaker
the negotiation process takes the approach of a resistance-based negotiation. If I was to come to you in the market and say, how much is that how much is that orange? And you were to say to me, this orange, it's £100. And I went, yeah, I'll take it. The first thing you're going to think is, ah,
00:32:13
Speaker
I should have said it was £150, so next time you will say it's £150. If I'm a shipping company and I've lost a vessel to pirates and a massive demand comes in and I agree to pay it, I agree this ridiculously high sum that the pirates have demanded and I'm going to pay it immediately, I might think I'm doing the right thing. But if I do that, there are a couple of problems that will happen.
00:32:40
Speaker
So firstly, every pirate on the high seas will now target my ships. They know I'll pay, I'll pay high, I'll pay quickly. And in the long run, that will increase the risk to my crew.
00:32:57
Speaker
Secondly, it funds the pirates to such an extent. We talked about their business model earlier. They'll make such huge profits that they'll switch all resources now to maritime piracy. um Within a couple of months, the seas will be crawling with freshly bought skiffs well-paid, well-funded, well-financed pirates using technology to help them identify where the vessels are. And again, the risk to me and the wider industry increases. And the third thing that happens is paying too much, paying above the market rate.
00:33:37
Speaker
sets the expectations of the pirates or the kidnappers on land. It sets their expectations really high for the next one. And any negotiation With any future shipping company or any um communicator who's had a loved one taken hostage in the future, that negotiation will be much, much tougher on the whole industry. Everyone ends up paying much more as a result. So paying fast, paying promptly to save life, that's not really a very good approach. And this is crucial. You know, I i teach um around the subject in the university in Sience-Popéry, and you often get posed the question by students around the ethics
00:34:17
Speaker
of of this process. And of course, I just think that's a very important point, Rob, that ultimately this process has come into existence because it's really about the safe release of the victims and ultimately doing it in such a way as to minimize such victims getting kidnapped again in the future. right And a follow-up question on that, Rob, is about the fact that there is that model at work. There's that procedural thinking that you're just describing from from your side, how aware are the kidnappers on the other side that there is this model in process? And and does that change change the negotiation strategy over time? For example, the ransom payment amounts, if they become known, will that influence the the behavior of the kidnappers on the other side?
00:35:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's a great question, and it's the a lot of this is the magic art of how a negotiation happens. So I'm going to be a little bit cagey here as we get into some of the some of the things that could give a tactical advantage to the baddies, and none of us want that. There are some exceptional people who work on behalf of the families of those who are kidnapped, and they're very, very good at what they do. Some of them work for government, some of them are private consultants, but If we talk about the anatomy if you like of negotiation, that's only got downside for the whole industry. However, I think we could probably have a bit of fun and talk about how a final value of the ransom is arrived at, looking at it from both perspectives.
00:35:55
Speaker
So if we say that, again, let's keep with the maritime industry, we say a container ship that was hijacked. It's filled with oranges and they're on their way to market. And the value of the oranges is about $5 million. dollars The ship is worth a couple of million dollars and the crew are worth a few million too. It sounds awful to say it, but yes, there is an insurance price put on a life from the underwriter's perspective. There are a couple of other things to think about as well.
00:36:26
Speaker
The ship's daily running costs might be about 20k a day and the oranges, which are in refrigerated units, have maybe two months to get to market before they go bad and they become worthless. The shipping company and their high-risk insurers, if they've got one, need to come up with a number that they're willing to pay to get the crew freed and the vessel freed and the cargo to market in time in order to minimize their loss.
00:36:55
Speaker
and On the baddies side, we spoke about their cost and their business model earlier. They want to make enough money to make their business model work, but they also they don't want to hold on to the risk for too long. and For both sides, the longer the negotiation, the more expensive the whole thing becomes. But the shipping company, as we just said, can't make it too easy for the pirates. They can't pay immediately or the amounts will keep going up. If it's too attractive, again, they'll get hit in the future.
00:37:24
Speaker
For the pirates, the longer the negotiation, the more likely a military intervention could occur. And so somewhere in the middle is a financial figure that will be acceptable to both sides in the maritime domain. Now, let's talk about a land-based kidnap for a moment. And how do you get to an agreement there, especially for a good old-fashioned kidnap for ransom? So let's say a business person is kidnapped while traveling in South America.
00:37:55
Speaker
If it's a target of opportunity rather than a targeted kidnap, then the kidnappers may not know much about their victim. They're going to do an assessment on the victim's worth when they have him. Is he wearing a Rolex or an Armani suit? I mean, those are obvious ones. That's probably what made him an attractive target in the first place.
00:38:17
Speaker
But with the information on a victim's smartphone these days, the kidnappers are going to delve deeply into the victim's net worth. For a start, banking apps. Any money you've got in your bank account that's available through the app will be taken immediately. It's not even going to be part of any negotiation, it's just gone. You've got the phone, you've got the individual, and any two-factor authentication for the transaction is worthless.
00:38:46
Speaker
Then let's take a look at your Facebook profile and LinkedIn. Did you just take your family on a cruise? Is there a picture of your Mercedes? If so, what model is it? How much is it worth? Ah, it's a nice picture of your dog. And look at the house behind it. Nice pool, by the way. What do you do for a living? Awesome. You were the CEO of a tech company that was just bought out for $25 million. dollars Those are obviously the easy ones.
00:39:16
Speaker
Now let's get into your email. You flew here business class. Your house insurance policy has just been renewed for $3 million. dollars You bought your wife a diamond necklace for her 50th birthday. I exaggerate a little of course, but even just a few years ago, none of that information was available to the kidnappers. And now they've got a huge amount of information available at their fingertips when they can make their initial demands.
00:39:42
Speaker
On the family's side, there's of course intense pressure to get their loved one back. How do you balance a financial amount against that life? How can you actually raise money easily? How do you tell your bank that you want to draw out a huge amount of cash? These days, they've got to do their due diligence and the danger is they freeze everything while they do it.
00:40:08
Speaker
I won't go any further here, but I think it's needless to say navigating this, navigating this communication with the hostage takers, navigating the negotiation. That's where you need to get some expert advice. And ultimately that's going to lead to the subject of the title of this episode is the actual ransom. I know Rob that your your book, which I've been reading is called The Ransom Drop.
00:40:35
Speaker
And yet, I'm noting that you're wording, sometimes you're saying drop, sometimes you're saying delivery. What I want to get at is maybe some of the differences between those, because clearly it sounds like there's a tactical difference between how things are delivered. And I guess my question is, what what is
Ransom Delivery Methods
00:40:50
Speaker
the actual mechanical process of the delivery of that ransom being handed over to the other person? Yeah, so this we get to the crux of it, don't we? I think the um the main issue with paying a ransom is that this is one of the key periods in the whole kidnap where all sides start to assume risk. The kidnappers have to expose themselves and ultimately collect a package or several packages. Assuming they honour their word, then they will have to expose themselves again once they've counted their cash when they then release the hostage.
00:41:29
Speaker
the hostage are also or The hostages are also more at risk here. It's the time when any military intervention might occur, as a location is locked down and the kidnappers reveal themselves. It's the time when the kidnappers may fall out between themselves over sharing up a ransom. Non-professional kidnappers may decide that the risk of releasing a hostage is too great, or that the hostage knows too much about them and so they would rather kill than release.
00:41:59
Speaker
The delivery team also have exposure here. Ultimately, some kind of face-to-face interaction is likely, or at best, a ah dead drop. Kidnappers are not stupid. They're going to make the delivery team or the delivery person dance a merry dance before revealing the final location of any drop or meeting.
00:42:20
Speaker
And that means the delivery person will be very exposed. Even with different technologies, there isn't necessarily any cavalry that that person can rely on if things go wrong. In fact, carrying a tracker or a hidden phone or a weapon will only put the delivery person at even more risk. And that will break trust immediately endangering everyone involved.
00:42:43
Speaker
The family or the shipping company paying the ransom also have risk. Ultimately, they're stumping up a large amount of cash. They don't want to lose it. They want their loved ones and employees back. They want to trust that the kidnappers will do what they say that they will do during the negotiation. So where is the middle ground? How are the transactions completed? Before getting into detail, I think there's one more caveat that's needed. Kidnappers are criminals.
00:43:12
Speaker
And in my opinion, some of the lowest form of criminals, they are ultimately bullies. And for their sometimes surprisingly small financial rewards, they cause pain and emotional trauma all around them. So the bit I talk about now is very considered.
00:43:32
Speaker
There are a number of things that may occur during the negotiation and also during the exchange, which again I won't detail. There are so few advantages on the side of the good guys, it is still best to keep those hidden. That said, when it comes to delivering a ransom onshore, in my experience, a bag of money is handed over, either face to face or through a dead drop.
00:43:58
Speaker
Hopefully, the criminals are calm and professional. Sometimes, they are high and jittery. There is usually a weapon, either visible or implied. It doesn't have to be a firearm, any weapon will do the trick, but on the criminal's side, there are at least two or three people. You might only see one, but there will absolutely be others in the immediate area.
00:44:25
Speaker
From the agreed contact point, as a person responsible for delivery, you'll be made to move from A to B to C. And that can be a bit physical if you've got a heavy bag. To be clear, you're not wheeling a big Samsonite around at this point. You're trying to be a little bit more discreet.
00:44:43
Speaker
Sometimes payments are broken into bundles, though ideally not. There's multiple points of exposure. You rarely have this movie-based Mexican standoff where you hand over a bag and the hostage suddenly appears from around a corner.
00:44:58
Speaker
Normally, once a ransom's been handed over, there's usually a delay. The hostage will be released in some remote area. Hopefully, with their phone back, sometimes even with a little cash to get the bus or a taxi back to a major city. Importantly, you can agree the terms of what happens on the release during that negotiation phase.
00:45:23
Speaker
I'd never liked face-to-face handovers personally. There's much too much risk for all involved. But let's change it up to the maritime environment again and delivering a ransom to pirates. That started with the handover of large sums face-to-face on the deck of a hijacked ship.
00:45:43
Speaker
You can imagine how risky that was approaching the hijacked vessel with you and your team on a tug or a supply vessel packed with fuel, food and medical items. The armed team on the tug, lots of armed Somalis on the deck of the hijacked ship. Someone steps across to hand over a couple of bags after they've seen that all the hostages are alive and well and on deck.
00:46:09
Speaker
The money is taken to the bridge, counted, and all the time both ships are a bit too close for comfort and there are too many weapons. After those first couple of times, the method was changed. It was agreed with the pirates as a business transaction that instead of all that tension, it would be safer to deliver the ransom by parachute into the water beside the ship.
00:46:34
Speaker
The pirates still got the money, but our supply vessel could stand off by a kilometre or so and wait for the pirates to disembark. There was a lot less risk all around. There's quite a lot in the open source about this now, but at the time it was a cutting-edge way of delivering a ransom. With the sum agreed by the shipping company's communicator and the pirates, a lot had to happen logistically.
00:46:59
Speaker
A tug or a supply ship had to be dispatched quickly. It could take up for a week to get in position near the hijacked ship. And then a team would be dispatched to collect the quantum from a bank somewhere in the world, and that money would be transferred onto a smaller aeroplane capable of opening its doors in flight. Of course, private jets can't do that. Smaller planes can't travel the vast distances quickly, so you always needed two.
00:47:24
Speaker
Once in the smaller plane, the money was repackaged and bagged into special waterproof bags, and it was then rigged to parachutes using quite a clever system. It needed to be pretty foolproof, as you can imagine, dropping a large amount of money out of the back of an aeroplane only to see a parachute fail or the container explode open when it hit the water. Or even worse, sink like a stone when it hit. That wouldn't have been a good outcome.
00:47:52
Speaker
As we approached the ship ready to make a delivery, we would tell the kidnappers to have the whole crew on the starboard side on the deck. We flew just above sea level height, and with good digital cameras, we took photos of everyone on the first pass. And I do mean everyone. Inside, we'd check the images against the photos we had of the crew.
00:48:15
Speaker
That might take a little while, as even the best images may not have been good enough. People might have grown beards. Everyone might have had a buzz cut. A malnourished face can look very different. But ultimately, with everyone hopefully accounted for, we'd have approval to drop. The pirates would put a couple of skiffs in the water, one at the front and one at the stern of the hijacked ship. And we'd then pass over the top, again at low level. And we'd throw the parachute loads out into the water.
00:48:43
Speaker
We never wanted them to land on the deck. It was just too dangerous. They might get tangled on a hoist or a crane, or they might land on someone's head. The pirates would then collect the the money out of the water, take it up onto the ship and carry it up to the bridge. They'd count it and they'd pay their guards. And then with any luck, they'd all get on their skiffs and leave the ship. That might take a couple of hours, but eventually that created the opportunity for our supply vessel to move in.
00:49:11
Speaker
and to move an armed team onto the hijacked vessel. We could then transfer fuel across food and we could start to help the crew medically and psychologically. Sometimes a crew couldn't get the vessel started under its own steam, it simply wouldn't work and that meant a long tow down the Somali coast passed other pirate groups and that was never comfortable. Just because a ship had been released by one warlord didn't mean that others wouldn't have a go.
00:49:40
Speaker
But both ships would stay in close proximity to each other until out of the danger area. And after perhaps a week at sea, the vessel would arrive in a friendly port where the crew could properly be looked after. And of course they could meet with their families. That's really fascinating Rob. That's a very tactical picture you've painted. Now you mentioned that in the Somali piracy case, it developed into this less risky strategy of dropping from the air.
00:50:09
Speaker
And I wanted to ask though, it's a question of trust between the delivery team and the kidnappers, especially in the earlier days when when it was face to face. Is there a process by which you build trust with the kidnappers so that when you arrive and you actually meet face to face for the first time, do they already know who you are? Have you built that trust with them?
00:50:31
Speaker
um Building trust, like with any business, like any transaction, building trust starts from the very first time you start communicating. And that starts um but starts with the team that are doing the communication, the negotiation. If I was to say to you, I will have a call with you at nine o'clock every morning, and at nine o'clock every morning, I'm there and I'm ready on the call, you will start to believe that I'm going to be trustworthy. It starts with tiny little things like that.
00:51:02
Speaker
tiny little psychological signals like that. The way the industry tended to work was with the major companies that did the negotiation. They would complete that negotiation process. That was where their expertise was, but they didn't necessarily have the expertise to conduct a delivery in every part of the world. And that is where the companies that I worked for came in.
00:51:28
Speaker
So we were experts at delivering in that part of the world. And so at the point where a negotiation had completed, a sum was agreed and a timeframe was agreed.
Building Trust in Negotiations
00:51:41
Speaker
Unknown to the hostage takers, the delivery gets handed off to us as a delivery team. So all of that trust that's been built up throughout the negotiation carries over to us. And the first time that I would then speak to the hostage taker's communicator, I'm continuing the conversation and the advice and the plan that's been agreed by the negotiating team.
00:52:11
Speaker
And as long as I don't change that, if I'm going to be there at nine o'clock on Wednesday morning ready to deliver, I've got to make sure that all of those different logistical preparations, that ship that left early, the aircraft coming from wherever with cash, the team are ready, we've got all the parachute, everything is sorted. And we then need to be making that first phone call to the hostage takers communicator on time ready to deliver. We're continuing that theme of trust. Now,
00:52:40
Speaker
That became quite an interesting business model. There weren't that many, I'll say Somali warlords, and there weren't that many English-speaking communicators. And all I will say is I began to recognize Abdi's voice the moment he answered the phone, and he recognized mine. I won't say we got chummy about it, but it was quite some relief to hear that it was Abdi on the other end of the phone.
00:53:09
Speaker
I don't know if his name really was Abdi. That's what he told me. I certainly didn't give him my real name. But we knew from each other's voice that from that perspective, we would have a transaction and that it would go well. Now,
00:53:24
Speaker
The difficult part is creating that level of trust when you are dealing with non-professionals. And there are a lot more non-professional, onshore kidnappers than there are under that Somali business model. And that's why, again, I didn't like face-to-face handovers. I didn't like that level of exposure. But onshore, there are very few ways that you can get around it. Sure, dead drop methodologies, et cetera, but you'll still have them to engage a little bit too closely for my liking.
00:53:53
Speaker
with onshore. and so That level of trust, that level of repeat business, which ultimately is what it was, wasn't quite there to the same level. and so Therefore, those levels of trust were much, much lower. That's fascinating. and I'm really curious about the the ransoms themselves. you know Is it always cash? What sort of ransoms have you seen outside of cash?
00:54:14
Speaker
and Then, you know I suppose a follow-up question is, do you care what sort of ransom it is? If I'm the kidnapper and I ring you up and I say, you know I want ah Lamborghinis, I want to be paid in Lamborghini cars, does it bother you or or are you just happy to get a ah deal done,
Unusual Ransom Demands
00:54:30
Speaker
get it paid, get the people home safe?
00:54:32
Speaker
I love the idea of Lamborghinis. I've never tried to throw one out the back of an aeroplane, and I don't know if it would survive the hit with the water. But yeah, I mean, cash cash is definitely king. It is definitely king, certainly amongst the professional hostage takers. Again, this is a business model, but there are a couple of funnies that ah that are worth mentioning. um Demands could come in all sorts of forms. And again, we're talking about kidnap for ransom.
00:55:02
Speaker
But the demands that someone can make during that negotiation can also just be a negotiating tactic. It could be something that they're doing to take you off-sent, to throw you a little bit. Demands can also be made through a naive approach.
00:55:19
Speaker
I'm aware, for example, of of one hostage taker who demanded a ransom to be paid in diamonds. They thought that was a good idea. Diamonds are reasonable stores of wealth, and they can be untraceable, although that's much harder these days. They're also a good store of wealth. They're small, they're tiny, they can be hidden, they can be moved. But if a negotiator demands a million dollars' worth of diamonds, you've got to ask yourself some questions.
00:55:50
Speaker
Is that really what they want? Do they realise that getting hold of that volume of untraceable stones is hard? Do they realise that if they received a million dollars worth of diamonds, that's still a lot of diamonds?
00:56:05
Speaker
and they would have great difficulty paying their team, paying their suppliers, paying their guards, do they realize that flooding their local market with diamonds would make the value of each diamond far less than the delivered value?
00:56:22
Speaker
Not everyone understands how to value a diamond. Is it real? Is it fake? Would the business partners in the in the organized crime organization, would they maintain trust by saying, here's a piece of glass, it's a diamond, it's worth $10,000?
00:56:39
Speaker
Another example, some might think that Bitcoin is the way to go. And I'm sure there are cases where that can work. But in the East African model, where we discussed all the people and supporting businesses that need to be paid out after the fact, it's not exactly a widely held secret you know that Bitcoin transactions can be tracked.
00:56:59
Speaker
and ultimately traced. And at some point, you've got to make the conversion of Bitcoin back into cash if that's what you're going to do. And in some parts of the world, that's just completely unfeasible. In some ways, Bitcoin transactions would make my job much easier and risk-free. I could do a delivery from my computer, never have to face another baddie again. But if they thought about it properly, the baddies would actually lose out.
00:57:26
Speaker
Well, know why would I be worried about that? Why is that a problem for me? Because again, my job is twofold. Deliver safely, collect the hostages, and at a minimum, make sure that to the best of my ability, the hostage is released unharmed and quickly picked up and made safe. It's hard to do that if there isn't some kind of physical transaction. That physical transaction, rather than a digital email that says you've just received however many Bitcoin,
00:57:56
Speaker
that physical transaction is a key part of the business model for a
Logistics of Cash Ransoms
00:58:00
Speaker
professional hostage taker. So let's talk about cash. A million dollars in $100 bills weighs, give or take, 11 kilograms. That's 11 bags of sugar. Oddly enough, it's also about the same size. And the money comes from the bank in bundles or bricks of $100,000.
00:58:25
Speaker
Generally speaking, those bricks are made up of 10 smaller bundles of $10,000. And those bundles are likely to have a small paper wrap around the middle of them, especially if the notes are all brand new. The whole brick is probably wrapped in cellophane. And as a planning figure, $2 million fits inside an aluminium suitcase.
00:58:49
Speaker
Yes, it's stereotypical, but think movies, think Samsonite, think silver. That's what we used to use. $10 million dollars is five Samsonites. That's about 110 kilograms of cash, all in $100 bills.
00:59:11
Speaker
Now, we had ah yeah we'd just collected a ransom from a boutique bank in a European country in about 2010, and we needed to fly it from our project staging area and prepare to deliver it. Of course, you don't go through the normal terminal for that kind of thing, and we went to the private VIP terminal. But before we could board the aircraft, we had to go through immigration quite normally, customs and, of course, security.
00:59:39
Speaker
The first thing that probably raised eyebrows as we walked into the room was four fit military men walking in with silver Samsonite suitcases in one hand and a camouflage daysack in the other. We were closely followed by our lawyer. I went up to the official and said that I needed to declare the export of a large amount of cash. He looked at me, he took the paperwork and he disappeared for a bit.
01:00:09
Speaker
Then he came back with his supervisor. She also asked a couple of questions. As per the paperwork, I said that the money was for the humanitarian release of hostages. She then disappeared for about us half an hour with our passports. She came back briefly, told her she was going to be longer, and another half an hour later.
01:00:32
Speaker
Now it's quite a popular private terminal list and so some of the rich and famous walked past us on the way to their jets. It felt blatantly obvious what we had in the bags. We knew it was money and we knew that they knew it was money and we just felt very exposed and uncomfortable. Anyway, the senior customs agent came back and she wasn't very happy.
01:00:53
Speaker
She was very, very clear when she spoke to me. Apparently, in this particular instance, the decision had gone all the way up to ministerial level. And whilst we were allowed to proceed, it was ultimately legal. She told me that I was never to use her airport again.
01:01:12
Speaker
Now with that formality aside, of course, we then had to go through the security scanners. And I remember the guy who was operating the scanner really clearly. He was a nice guy and we'd been chatting casually whilst we'd waited for that hour and a bit. And as the first suitcase went into the scanner, I walked around and could see the screen. It was a little bit of a movie moment as bag after bag came through the scanner. And the image looked almost like an empty suitcase, except for lines and lines of the metallic strips in the cache, which highlighted up inside the scanner. He didn't let me take a photograph. However, as we then went through and as we left, the security officer and I winked at each other. The custom supervisor scowled at me, but I thought I'd give her a wink as well as I walked out the building. Anyway, the funny thing with cache is that it's really bulky.
01:02:09
Speaker
even a couple of million in hundred dollar bills quickly becomes a problem logistically.
01:02:17
Speaker
We had one project. where a rather naive negotiator on the other side felt that hundreds were too large. um what He was unable to move them in the local economy and they were at risk of being traced. Now, I won't say that he was wrong there, but he started off with a demand that I don't think he actually understood. It just simply wasn't possible. So this person wanted his ransom to be paid face to face in Mogadishu.
01:02:49
Speaker
and he wanted everything in twenty dollar bills. Now a million dollars in twenties is roughly fifty kilos. Ten million dollars is half a ton of cash, or the equivalent of twenty-five Samsonites.
01:03:10
Speaker
It simply wasn't possible to get hold of that many twenties. And that comes back to your original point. You know, do we ever really have an opinion on how a ransom is paid? I certainly don't want to be lugging 25 Samsonites around with me with a large number of team members who are following as we were to do it. So follow up question to that is, and I don't know if you're allowed to answer this, but i'm I'm really curious. I'm going to ask, what is the biggest ransom you've ever delivered? So it is a time to be a little bit cagey again.
01:03:41
Speaker
And I'm certainly not admitting to anything, but if you were to go online and have a look at the Guinness Book of Records, there is a figure of
Moral Considerations and Theft Deterrence
01:03:50
Speaker
$13.5 million dollars for the release of a supertanker carrying crude oil. Interestingly, the vessel was worth, in its own right, about $100 million, dollars and she had $200 million dollars worth of oil on board.
01:04:10
Speaker
She was released after about two months. The public sum, I believe, on the website isn't quite correct, but it's in a near ballpark. But normally at this point, I'll then get asked, have we ever been tempted to steal a ransom? It is, after all, a lot of money. We genuinely used to have conversations about that as a team.
01:04:33
Speaker
Imagine, if you will, we're sitting in the back of a private jet surrounded by vast amounts of cash with the ability to go anywhere in the world. Putting the very important moral questions aside, it simply wasn't enough. Let's say you're a team of six and there's $12 million dollars sitting there in front of you.
01:04:57
Speaker
Are all six of you willing to uproot your life, leave your family and friends permanently for just a couple of million dollars? It does also, of course, raise a very important question on the team composition. We always made sure that our team members and our aircrew had the highest possible levels of integrity.
01:05:19
Speaker
It's a very small community where I used to live. Our families knew each other. We socialized a lot. And perhaps most importantly, we knew that the impact of not making that delivery would jeopardize the lives of the hostages. And again, at the core there is the survival of the victims. That's what this is all about.
01:05:41
Speaker
One question I've been dying to ask you, Rob, again, from the perspective of the victims in any kind of kidnap situation, given your experience with all these cases,
Kidnapping Survival Strategies
01:05:50
Speaker
if you yourself were kidnapped tomorrow, they don't know who you are. They don't know what your experiences are. You're a kidnapped. What would you do to increase your chances of survival while you're in that captivity? And that's assuming it's a kidnap for ransom criminal situation.
01:06:05
Speaker
The concept of prevention is much better than the cure. so So I've got a little bit of advice to add also around how to prevent being kidnapped in the first place, if you'll if you'll indulge me. And then, yeah, how do you actually maintain your perspective when you have been kidnapped, if you're ever unlucky enough for that to happen to you?
01:06:22
Speaker
So surprisingly, or perhaps not surprisingly, there are quite a large number of resources about how to prevent yourself from being kidnapped and also how you should respond if you are kidnapped. They're all online. You've got really good resources from the FBI and they're publicly available. And you've got really good resources. You've got a whole pamphlet by the National Crime Agency in the UK. Quite literally, just just Google something along the lines of hey, ah how do I survive a kidnapping? But of course, just watch out because you might end up on a watch list. Keep perspective, I think, is probably the first thing. Remember, the large number of kidnaped for anthems that happen occur to local nationals in their home countries. And generally speaking, this is areas where the rule of law is not so strong.
01:07:12
Speaker
It's less likely to happen to foreign business travellers visiting the developed world, but of course, what you need to do there is you need to manage your own behaviours. When you go travelling for business, for example, don't do stupid things like go and visit dodgy bars in dodgy parts of town late.
01:07:32
Speaker
And I wouldn't say this if I didn't see it, but don't indulge in prostitution or recreational drugs while you're abroad for business trouble. You are just asking for trouble. It can also be more subtle too. In some places, minimize driving at night, use reputable car firms, hotel book transport, do your due diligence on your local business partners, know your customer, all those kinds of things. If the world is full of predators,
01:08:01
Speaker
Don't look like prey. If you look like the juiciest target because of what you're wearing and what you're doing, don't be stuck in your device with zero awareness of what's going on around you. And I think that carries across to the virtual domain as well. Think carefully about how much you put on social media. What are your privacy settings? What are you posting?
01:08:23
Speaker
Before you travel, if you're going to high-risk countries, I've already mentioned do all of the data that can be on your mobile phone or your device. Depending upon your risk exposure, delete all the main banking and social media apps off your phone temporarily. You can always install them again when you get home. Even better though, travel with a burner.
01:08:44
Speaker
leave your personal digital footprint behind, leave your email, leave your bank, leave your insurance, whatever it is, you can get away with it for a couple of days if you're exposed in a high-risk area. rate We then get to that transition point. We get to that place where all of a sudden it's happening to you. You are now becoming a victim. If at the point where you look up from your phone,
01:09:09
Speaker
The criminals are already around you. You've probably lost your window for escape. You are already a victim. And that is a point where you shouldn't resist, where you will just get hurt. You're now going to have to roll with it and go with it until help arrives.
01:09:26
Speaker
Keep your patience throughout the ordeal. And if you end up being kidnapped, try to remember a couple of things. The kidnappers are going to ask you who they should speak to in order to negotiate. Think about who that should be. Do you want it to be your wife or your husband? You certainly don't want it to be one of your younger children. Do you have a brother or a cousin, someone who you feel might be able to maintain emotional stability, certainly in those early days? Never self-negotiate, ever.
01:10:03
Speaker
It makes it so much harder for a team who are going through a negotiation process, trying to get you released, if on the other side you're promising things which are just never even going to be considered.
01:10:16
Speaker
Do communicate with the kidnappers. Talk to them. But stay reserved and polite. Don't think you can create a friendly relationship. It's okay to talk about football and possibly family, but avoid sensitive topics like politics and religion.
01:10:37
Speaker
Importantly, you're probably going to be on your own, or you might be with a group and I'll come on to that, but you're probably going to be on your own. And if you can exercise, eat properly to the best of your ability, sleep,
01:10:52
Speaker
If you're missing your vital medication because you were kidnapped without it, tell your kidnappers. They ultimately want to release you alive for money. They might even be able to get some of your meds if asked. I have seen instances where medication has been asked for during the negotiation and that has been delivered separately in order to get it to the victim.
01:11:18
Speaker
You're going to be asked questions by the kidnappers and you need to find a balance between truth and, if possible, restricting their understanding. Don't lie, especially if they can just go on your Facebook page or online and disprove what you said. You will end up telling them the truth anyway, but you'll have a bloody nose for your trouble.
01:11:41
Speaker
If when you are kidnapped, you're part of a group, It's better to stay part of that group throughout the ordeal. Do not stand out for any reason. Do not separate yourself from the group. You are stronger as a group. Another piece of advice is quite commonly spoken about, a proof of life questions. So a proof of life question is where a communicator working for your family or the company will try to confirm with the kidnappers that you are still alive.
01:12:14
Speaker
And they will ask for a fact that only you will know. If you can, use that opportunity to talk to the communicator. Ask them if you can speak to your your spouse. That is the best form of proof of life. But if not, then you need to come up with ah answers to their questions, which you know will, without a shadow of a doubt, provide proof of life. Something that isn't online, isn't on your Facebook profile.
01:12:45
Speaker
I think the very final thing to say there is, most importantly, you need to keep your own sense of hope alive. Stay positive. Once communication has been made, trust that a process is happening. Remember, the criminals may lie to you to ratchet up pressure. That is, after all, what they do.
01:13:09
Speaker
The process of a release may not be smooth, but stay grounded and keep perspective where you can. Whilst it varies around the world, the vast majority of kidnaps for ransoms do result in the release of a hostage alive.
01:13:29
Speaker
Rob, that's you know i think really good advice and and a really excellent answer. and One question we always like to finish on, and I think given the the the the high stakes of what we've been talking about here, it's only appropriate. What keeps you up at night about this topic? I suppose we all have our demons, don't we? In my case, I consider myself fortunate to have never had a project failure when it came to a release.
01:14:00
Speaker
I'm proud to have worked with a team that ultimately secured the release of more than 800 seafarers. That's 800 men who got home. Sometimes I battle with the moral questions of the unknown. Have my actions in delivering ransoms driven further instability in an already desperate part of the world?
01:14:30
Speaker
That is possible.
01:14:34
Speaker
Hypnap for ransom is one of the oldest crimes that there is. There's no magic bullet that's going to stop it. And the best that any one individual can do is help to resolve each case, one case at a time. Help an individual get home. Solving a wider problem is the purvey of governments and society as a whole.
01:14:58
Speaker
But the cases that really keep me
Ethical Dilemmas and Global Impact
01:15:00
Speaker
awake at night are the horrific ones that we've touched on. The ones where individuals are taken as part of a political or religious ideology. They are always high profile. There's always a tragic human impact. And there is no easy business transaction to be done there. And keeping hope alive for their families is very difficult.
01:15:26
Speaker
I think those cases are very hard to resolve successfully, and I've got immense respect for the government negotiators that try. Rob, thank you very much for joining us and for sharing so many excellent stories. It's a pleasure.
01:15:42
Speaker
It's been really interesting to talk to you both. Lewis Cormack, thanks very much for having me today. You've been listening to Rob Fair discussing how to deliver a ransom. Our producer for the show was Edwin Tram. To all our listeners and Patreon supporters, thank you very much for listening and supporting how to get on the watch list. We'll be sure to put links to Rob's books in the show notes, so please do check those out and we look forward to speaking to you again next time.
01:16:07
Speaker
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