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How to Stalk a Celebrity
4 Playsin 11 minutes
In this episode, we speak with Dr. Angela Lewis and Caleb Gilbert on stalkers, bodyguards, protective intelligence, and the world of celebrities.
Dr. Angela Lewis is the Head of Global Intelligence, Investigations, and Threat Management for a talent agency that represents many of the most well-known sports and entertainment figures; she is also an adjunct professor and teaches intelligence courses for Georgetown University, the University of Cincinnati, and the University of New Hampshire. Prior to working in the private sector, Dr. Lewis served as a senior counterterrorism targeting officer in the CIA's Directorate of Operations with multiple tours abroad. She holds her PhD from Pepperdine University, where her studies focused on leveraging intelligence for strategic decision-making.
Caleb Gilbert is the Founder & President of White Glove Protection Group, with over two decades of experience in Executive Protection for clients across the Fortune 100 and 200, as well as Private Family Offices. His expertise spans Close Protection for A-List celebrities, ultra-high-net-worth individuals, and corporate protection and intelligence teams. A Certified Protection Specialist from Executive Security International, Caleb holds an Associate’s degree in Homeland Security and an undergraduate degree in Security Management from Southwestern College. He also earned a Graduate Certificate in International Security from Stanford University and a Master’s degree in Global Security Studies from Johns Hopkins University. Caleb makes numerous contributions to the Executive Protection community, including as Vice Chair of the ASIS International’s Executive Protection Community. In this role, he champions initiatives supporting Women in Protection, Mentorship, and Leadership Development. Caleb also serves on the Board of Directors for the International Protective Security Board (IPSB).
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Series
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to How to Get on a Watchlist, the new podcast series from Encyclopedia Geopolitica. um In each episode, we'll sit down with leading experts to discuss dangerous activities. From assassinations and airliner shootdowns through to kidnappings of coups, we'll examine each of these threats through the lenses of both the Dangerous Act to seeking to conduct these operations and the agencies around the world seeking to stop them. In the interest of operational security, certain tactical details will be omitted from these discussions.
00:00:34
Speaker
However, the cases and threats which we discuss here are very real.
Meet the Experts
00:01:02
Speaker
nine one one what's emergency I'm Louis H. Prisant, the founder and co-editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica. I'm a researcher in the field of intelligence and espionage with a PhD in intelligence studies from Loughborough University. I'm an adjunct professor in intelligence at Science Pro Paris, and in my day job, I provide geopolitical analysis and security-focused intelligence to private sector corporations.
00:01:25
Speaker
I'm Aleksandar Shokiewicz, a co-editor of Encyclopedia Geopolitica. I'm a multilingual security and intelligence professional, with a Master's in international security from Sciences Popari. I have served in both consulting and in-house roles, bridging the gap between analysis and operations, and focusing on threat identification and monitoring, geopolitical intelligence and strategy, and security support to various public and private audiences.
00:01:47
Speaker
So today we're talking about how to stalk a celebrity and we've got two fantastic guests lined up to talk about this with us, Angela Lewis and Caleb Gilbert. So firstly, Dr. Angela Lewis is the Head of Global Intelligence, Investigations and Threat Management for a talent agency that represents many of the most well-known sports and entertainment figures. She's also an adjunct professor and teaches intelligence courses at Georgetown University, the University of Cincinnati and the University of New Hampshire.
00:02:14
Speaker
Prior to working in the private sector, Dr. Lewis served as a senior counterterrorism targeting officer in the CIA's Director of Operations with multiple tours abroad. She holds a PhD from Papadine University where her studies focused on leveraging intelligence for strategic decision making. Caleb Gilbert is the founder and president of Wide Glove Protection Group with over two decades of experience in executive protection for clients across the Fortune 100 and 200, as well as private family offices. His expertise spends close protection for A-list celebrities ultra high net worth individuals, and corporate protection and intelligence teams. A certified protection specialist from Executive Security International, Caleb holds an associate's degree in Homeland Security and an undergraduate degree in security management from Southwestern College. He also earned a graduate certificate in international security from Stanford University and a master's degree in global security studies from John Hopkins University. Caleb makes numerous contributions to the executive protection community
00:03:09
Speaker
including as Vice Chair of the ASIS International's Executive Protection Community. In this role, he champions initiatives supporting women in protection, mentorship, and leadership development. Caleb also serves on the Board of Directors for the International Protective Security Board. Well, Caleb and Angie, thank you very much for joining us. Great to be here. Thank you so much for having us.
Untraditional Paths into Intelligence
00:03:31
Speaker
So a question we always like to ask our guests, and and in this case, I'm really excited to hear your answers, is how did you get into a lot of work? It's a pretty niche field. how How did you find yourself doing this for a living? So for me, I kind of grew up, if you will, professionally um in the CIA's Directorate of Operations. I was a targeting officer. And so a lot of the work that I did was really looking at how to create opportunities to build contact with people. So maybe that was finding their locations, understanding their pattern of life, things like that. um And so it was a little bit of the kind of reverse side of what we're talking about today.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then of course when I shifted gears from the public sector to the private sector, um I found myself in the entertainment industry and I really kind of fell in love with the work that the entertainment industry does and the unique ways that I could bring sort of my security and Intel background to support and assist and help the creative types out there to do their best work um on a daily basis.
00:04:27
Speaker
For me, it was a very untraditional path. I yeah fell in love with the concept of executive protection when I was 16. I quit school at 13 because I had zero interest in academics and was horrible at it. And so I literally started working in security, moved to Hollywood, went to executive protection school, paid my own way through the executive protection training that I could get and then and then so started working with every celebrity.
00:04:53
Speaker
As the years passed on work my way up through the industry lived with several celebrities travel the world really immersed in that entire culture for the first portion of my career then as i started the near the end of my twenties i had a. a protect eda said caleb I like you, but you need an education. And so I was like, I quit school at 13 because I hated it. I don't want to start now, you know? But he was he was very emphatic about it. And so that's when I started my academic pursuit.
00:05:24
Speaker
Through that process i spent eleven years in academia kinda rounding out the school hard knocks that informed me as the the protector that i became i'm not allowed me to to work into my family offices corporations and really use my protection you know unique flavor of protection if you will,
00:05:44
Speaker
to infuse the protection industry with a little more personalized touch, a little more industry-specific character. A lot of tactics and techniques that that my different teams have developed over the years have been specifically curated for the private sector because I i simply don't have the government background background to rely on. and so I had to literally create my own. so It's been a fun fun combination, a fun progression, and I love learning along the way.
00:06:10
Speaker
That's some really ah interesting backgrounds. I'm i'm really keen to to draw on your expertise as we get into
Risks to Celebrities
00:06:16
Speaker
this then. So I think let's kick this off. What what are the biggest risks to celebrities? you know Why are celebrities, you know why do they need this kind of support? What what is it that they should be concerned about?
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah, so um I think even this really runs the gamut and it can be anything from, you know, obviously that invasion of privacy to, you know, physical physical security and even death threats. I guess celebrities are obviously in the spotlight. So the line gets kind of blurry for many. um And in particular, those are that are inappropriately fixated on them there's an erosion of their privacy and this can undermine a celebrity's confidence and their feelings of safety and it interferes with their work sometimes. So even if something doesn't seem to rise to the level of concern of say a death threat for example you know it can have a serious impact on their life and their livelihood um and how they go about doing their work.
00:07:08
Speaker
That psychological impact so on victims can be really significant so you know in addition to the physical safety concerns um and kind of the means by which those victims might. Take the measures to protect themselves and like you know installing security cameras or changing their routines or having you know people like a live and a ah physical actor or you know you sort of legal protections like.
00:07:32
Speaker
restraining orders, there can be significant psychological impacts to the chronic anxiety, um emotional distress, feelings of helplessness and depression and fear and isolation. um And that can cause victims to withdraw from social situations, from work or from other public places to avoid that harassment. um So I think that, like I said, those risks really run the gamut, both physical, but it's then it's also psychological as well.
00:07:57
Speaker
I couldn't agree with you more, Angela. you look at A lot of the celebrities that I've worked with have really felt the personal impact of exactly what you're speaking to. You look you look at people that are in the public eye, right? These people are out there and they are successful because the public's impression of them falls in line with what the public's expectations are.
00:08:16
Speaker
And so you have a list celebrity, they're out there and they're impacted by a nefarious actor or stock or whatever it might be that changes their ability to be the persona that most people see day in and day out. And that's a delineation from the star that people see, you know, and so you look at, you look at, you know, traditionally we think of, of celebrities and their risks that they face as the threat to life, limb, you know, and, and loss, but Literally, a celebrity's career can be over just because of the psychological impacts, the devastating effects of those nefarious actors that we don't hear about every day. Yeah, that's that's fascinating. and Caleb, you just mentioned A-type celebrities, and I'm wondering which type of celebrities actually draw the most attention and the dangerous and unsolicited attention for something like this. Are there any particular types of folks working in particular sectors that would be more exposed than others to something like this?
00:09:14
Speaker
Well, you look at some celebrities ah thrive on, you know, kind of, kind of doing crazy acts, you know, jumping on couches and and different things that they are known for. Right. And for me, having having been in those places where the celebrities were doing those acts.
00:09:33
Speaker
It was interesting for me to see, all right, what part of this is the celebrity being a celebrity and in drawing that attention? And then the others that their life is kind of a bowling ball of catastrophe that just really attracts attention and and kind of snowballs as it goes along. And so I'd say the the celebrity that's career snowballs is at the greatest risk of both falling off of the A-list track and be falling into a level of celebrity that's not in line with where they want it to go to keep the compensation coming in. Absolutely. I would agree with that completely. I think the, a couple of sort of, I don't know if you want to call them like demographic areas where you see, you know, ah celebrities who are getting a lot of attention. It can be the outspoken celebrities who are taking on
00:10:24
Speaker
You know activist issues and things like that that can be a big one because not only do they have their kind of stardom um that is garnering attention but then they can also get the attention of people who maybe disagree with their political or environmental or social stances so i think that that's you know, one of the big places where you can see sort of more obsessive stalkers. I think, you know, obviously, you know, there are a lot of high profile stories ah of women in particular, you know, who have had stalkers. It doesn't just happen to women, it happens to men as well. But then, you know, one thing to consider is sort of the sexualization of women, their accessibility, media portrayal, the emotional investment of their fan bases.
00:11:11
Speaker
um So when you're thinking about who's most likely to get a stalker, some of those factors do come into play. A lot of stalkers are driven by a distorted sense of connection or obsession with a celebrity, which leads to harmful actions, obviously. um So I bring up that sort of sexualization um factor because many celebrities who are seen as sex symbols or who cultivate an image of you know romance or fantasy yeah can also tend to attract very obsessive fans.
00:11:36
Speaker
But again we see obsessive fans in a myriad of sectors so by no means associated with just one specific demographic. One of my favorite protect these of all time was, was just what you described there. And ah she she was my favorite protect because literally for nine months, you know, I, I was with her the majority of the time and she had that obsessive stalker that that followed her day in and day out. She changed her phone number. The stalker would get her phone number. This is back, you know, when land lines were more prevalent, if you will.
00:12:07
Speaker
But she would take and change her phone number the stocker would get her phone number and that would that would scare her even more you know it finally escalated to the point to where the stocker somehow is getting her location information and would show up randomly when we we're out in Beverly Hills just show up pull up right next to us.
00:12:28
Speaker
And you know the the psychological impacts that we talked about before you know were devastating, but the things that he said, the disrespect, the the things that that he pushed out there that were baseless, he was psychologically disturbed. None of it was factual, but all of that was so devastating to him because you know she had been a child child actress that had grown up, become you know the the you know sex symbol, if you will,
00:12:52
Speaker
as she progressed and now she was in her life to where she had you know moved past that and was trying to portray a little more mature acting and she just completely felt degraded by that. you know And so the process of of that escalation throughout the months just increasingly striped struck terror into her heart you know to where she didn't want to go anywhere unless we were with her. you know and Talk about a ah miserable way to live your life. Yeah, for sure.
00:13:21
Speaker
Is there any particular threshold when you would consider something to be stalking? Is there even something like a sort of generally accepted legal definition? Does that differ between jurisdictions?
Legal Challenges in Stalking
00:13:31
Speaker
And how do you differentiate between paparazzi and an actual stalking behavior? Or does that fall into sort of the same category? Where do you draw the line, right?
00:13:42
Speaker
Paparazzis are permanent stockers. It's an aspect of the industry that you just learn to manage it. you know Sometimes you can manage it through professional relationships, you know just taking taking the paparazzi aside, you have the same 150 people following you everywhere. So day after day, month after month, they know and you know they would follow me home when I would drive home and offer me money to you know actually like give them the shot type of deal. you know And so outlining the the professional nature of, hey, this is not acceptable. This is acceptable. If you want your shot, then respect the protectee will have an opportunity for you to get your shot. You'll be able to to make your payday, but don't try to sit here and and you know crash the party or do anything out of line with expectations. Otherwise, we will do our job.
00:14:33
Speaker
You know, and several times we over the course of my career, you know, my team has has done our jobs and we shut entire swaths of paparazzi out of out of events and made them so blooming mad that they literally were were trying to drive through fences to get to where we were because there were $3 million dollars shots at stake, you know, inside that venue, you know, and so Developing those relationships with the paparazzi and clearly delineating where the lines of acceptable behavior are has been extremely important for my teams over the years.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, i that's absolutely, you know, on on target with what I've seen as well. And I think one of the things that Caleb really brought up that is so critical is boundary setting. It's really just kind of saying it's it's establishing that level of comfort and kind of where what the celebrity is comfortable with and making sure that those boundaries are respected. um And there can be a, you know,
00:15:32
Speaker
If slightly contentious but relatively positive relationship with the paparazzi um if they are willing to kind of abide by those those boundaries. Going back to the question about the definition of stalking. It does vary by jurisdiction but there are a few kind of standard elements that go with it.
00:15:49
Speaker
um It's generally repeated and and willful acts um so like the behavior is intentional and it's repetitive um you know maybe repeatedly contacting or following somebody that pattern of behavior so it could be a combination of factors but it's conducted over a period of time. Maybe sending unwanted messages are showing up on invited or using you know technology to track the victim.
00:16:11
Speaker
And then there is that threat of harm. So most legal definitions at least will include that requirement that the victim have a reasonable fear for their safety um or the safety maybe of their family or or loved ones. And then I'll add a little note that cyber stalking using the electronic means to stalk or pass someone has been included as part of the broader stalking statutes due to its growing prevalence. So as far as the official definition, it does vary by jurisdiction, but that tends to be some of the those tend to be some of the tenets that are included.
00:16:41
Speaker
As well as the delineation that it is psychological is it is not psychologically or ideologically motivated. you know when When somebody's paparazzi, they're doing it for a paycheck, you know somebody that's ideologically or ah you know psychological psychologically disturbed to the point to where they're actually pursuing that stalker, then that's definitely within the realm of stalker definitions.
00:17:06
Speaker
So how extreme can stalkers become? you know What are some of the most kind of egregious examples you've you've come across? you know The top of my head when we're talking about stalkers, I'm thinking about you know John Hinckley shooting Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. So it feels like nothing's kind of off the table here, right?
00:17:22
Speaker
Absolutely. um if If you can imagine it, a stalker probably can too. so you know That combination of obsessive behavior, delusional thinking, you know the willingness to break boundaries and laws makes extreme stalking cases pretty unpredictable and dangerous. so Most of us who kind of work in this field are trained to, at some level, expect the unexpected, ah but it does make it challenging to be proactive because that you know you're always sort of the obscure or unexpected can be the the one thing that you you know need to account for. You're not always working with in the realm of the rational. So obviously, you know much of the time there is a mental health issue at hand that also will play into the level of delusion and your ability to sort of anticipate their next step and their likely reaction or not to some of the mitigation measures that you might put in place. so
00:18:12
Speaker
I know Caleb probably has some some examples as well, but I would say you know physical confrontations, forced encounters, breaking and entering, threats of violence or death, impersonating the victim or the victim's family members, following or surveillance over long periods of time, destruction or vandalism of property, sending threatening or obsessive gifts, harassing or intimidating close friends or family members of the victim.
00:18:36
Speaker
kidnapping or attempted abduction, cyber-socking and doxing. Those are you know ah a list of things, but if it's something uncomfortable, it's probably something that a stalker has done or has considered um in some some way.
00:18:51
Speaker
Absolutely. The creativity of stalkers is mind blowing at times. You know, ah one of the A-list celebrities that that I had the pleasure of protecting had a stalker that literally through the went through the process to legally change her name to the Protectee's wife's full name. And went through the entire legal process to the point to where they showed up at events with real government credentials with the name of the wife of the of the Protectee printed you know in in government credentials to prove that they were literally the spouse of this protectee. you know So that creates a whole myriad of different challenges, you know obviously requiring you know much more intel to be able to cover that scope. But at the end of the day, the committed adversary knows no limits and they they just have to get creative once. And that situation blew my mind.
00:19:49
Speaker
especially when she got past the outer perimeter one time of, of an event and came straight teen across this, this venue towards the protect D and, uh, I got to play, but it was, it was insane that she had got in there. I need to ask because of it's a fascinating case that you just outlined. I'm surprised that something like that would be legal to change your name.
00:20:15
Speaker
like that, are there differences in different jurisdictions when attacking something like this, trying to do something like this? Or are there sort of places where it's easier or more difficult to pull something like that off? you know I'm not a legal expert, so so I don't necessarily know. But changing your name to XYZ, in my mind, isn't necessarily that hard. It's ah it's personal preference. you know There's not a trademark or ah a um he's know way to protect a a celebrity's name, if you will.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah, and and chances are when they're going to change their name to you know something associated with the celebrity, and they're not telling um law enforcement or they're not filling out a form saying, I'm doing this because I'm stalking so-and-so and would like to appear as their, I don't know, wife, child, what have you. um And so, you know as far as the people who are processing that paperwork are concerned, it's just an average citizen who wants to change their name to something.
00:21:13
Speaker
um and they may not realize sort of the nefarious intent behind it. And if they haven't advertised the fact that they're doing it, people who are trying to investigate or are keeping tabs on that stalker might not even know they're doing it until it's done. That makes sense. And and going back a little bit, you already mentioned this a bit, Angie and um Caleb as well, people being quite creative, you know, ah expecting sort of the obscure and unexpected in this. Some folks with psychological illnesses, but ah also other other type of people. What sort of people do end up being stalkers? Do they come from a broader demographic or is there sort of a typical type that you're looking for? Yeah, they come from a wide range of backgrounds um and you know their motivations and behaviors and psychological profiles, those can all vary quite greatly. It's tempting to think of them as sort of the lonely weirdos.
00:22:04
Speaker
The reality is a little bit more complex than that. Many of the individuals who kind of engage in stalking behaviors or sort of inappropriate fixations, they don't fit into the stereotypical mold. Stalking can be perpetrated by people from all kinds of demographics, including those who might appear to be well adjusted in society. There are always some psychological or emotional factors at play, so it kind of goes back to that obsessive or delusional thinking. ah Many stalkers, especially those with those tendencies that are obsessive or delusional,
00:22:34
Speaker
They'll become excited on the idea that they have some sort of special or unique connection with that victim. But they don't always present as that lonely weirdo. So it's important to note that this holds true whether the person being stuck is a celebrity or maybe just an average citizen. So many stockers do have personality disorders and or mental health issues and or attachment issues. But those underlying motivations can vary quite greatly.
00:22:57
Speaker
I can think of several scenarios in my head of of individuals who are psychologically unstable, who came from you know ah upper class families, who are in the midst of upper, you know high level education through quality schools and are consistently immersed in unacceptable stocking activity. They have the means, they have the resources, they have the capabilities you know to to fly across country and do a lot of things, but their obsession with the Protect E, it makes no sense other than they're psychologically disturbed. But those have been the ones that have surprised me more, you know, then than really the committed person that has nothing going for them outside of this stalking scenario.
00:23:43
Speaker
so I just want to bring it back to the general kind of trend of ah celebrity stalking. Has this always been a threat? Is this something that you know kind of early film and and Hollywood celebrities would have had to think about? Has this evolved over time? and In particular, I'm wondering, has has the growth in kind of celebrity gossip outlets, celebrity gossip media, has that fueled this in any way?
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, um so I mean, I guess you could say as long as there have been famous people in the public eye, this has been a concern. But there has been an evolution of sorts over the past several years in terms of how it's perceived and how it's addressed. Not just celebrity gossip outlets, but I would say also the growth of social media um has definitely exacerbated the perception of accessibility and connection with people who have these unhealthy fixations.
00:24:28
Speaker
Fans often deeply identify with the personal narratives or those public personas as Caleb had mentioned earlier about some of these celebrities, um which can lead to sort of that overestimation of the intimacy or personal connection that they have with the person that they're stalking. So, you know, some local police departments have specialized in the focus of preventing and managing these types of threats.
00:24:49
Speaker
And, you know, there obviously has been an an evolution of personal protection as well in terms of how they um approach it, how they consider, you know, the the more data that we have, the the longer this goes on, the more expertise is developed as well in terms of how to to combat it. But I would say that the growing recognition that, you know, stalkers could pose significant risks to not just the public figures, but to ordinary citizens as well has really advanced since maybe the 1990s.
00:25:14
Speaker
stocking and those related behaviors were kind of obviously fueled by those obsessive fixations. But there was a shift in kind of how seriously it was taken by law enforcement. I think it was the early 90s when the California had its anti-stalking law passed, which criminalized stalking and set the stage for more organized and professional law enforcement response to this type of threat. And you know that was that kind of stemmed from, I believe it was the murder of actress Rebecca Shafer. But obviously, even before that, you know you had John Lennon's murder in 1980 by Mark David Chapman, who believed that killing Lennon would make him famous.
00:25:49
Speaker
And of course, you already mentioned the incident related to John Hinckley. So, you know, I mentioned this evolution of how stalking is handled and the role of social media is played in it. And then of course, cyber stalking and social media threats have only increased that. um The challenge is stalkers not only target people in the physical world, but online as well. um And some use social media to harass, threaten and intimidate their victims. You have your keyboard warriors just as much as you have the people who are, you know, taking action in the physical world as well.
00:26:15
Speaker
And you look at the salient collection connection between the need for celebrities to have that personal connection with their fans and the desire psychologically unstable individuals to further that connection, right? There's that fine balance that if the celebrity doesn't have that intimate dynamic,
00:26:33
Speaker
with their fans of oh you're my number one fan and you know all of those things that create that celebrity status they don't have that they're no longer a celebrity they become a b-lister and and and move on out of the way and somebody else fills those shoes so it's it it's a intentionally kind of tedious balance between having the crazy fans who go crazy when you arrive at the restaurant or wherever and having the fans that go beyond the crazy fan and become the crazy stalker fan. right so It's it's kind of a problem that's built into the culture of celebrities at as a whole, and you know the the legislation over the years has worked to try to create buffers and boundaries, but we we also know that there's limited levels of success with legislation, enforcement of legislation, as well as the digital threats that progress from that. You look at, you know it it is much easier for nefarious actor to have intrusive interventions in the celebrity's life now through doxine, through you know digital footprints and and things like that,
00:27:38
Speaker
All of those things we didn't have in in you know years past and decades past, now that is an additional layer of stocking that can get a stocker even closer to the celebrity if we aren't actively mitigating that.
Security Strategies for Celebrities
00:27:55
Speaker
What would be the most dangerous types of events or public appearances for celebrities?
00:28:01
Speaker
How does that risk compare them to, you know, when they're in their own home or in other private spaces at friend's house partying together in the club somewhere? where Like, what what are the what are the differences between these and and what type of locations would be sort of most exposed?
00:28:15
Speaker
I mean, I would say in many ways it really depends on the celebrity and the nature of the stalkers' fixation and also just the nature of who the celebrity is and kind of what they typically do, their their' typical behaviors and activities. Generally, I would say ones that la involve large crowds can be difficult to you know mitigate against.
00:28:34
Speaker
There's also those inter intimate interactions. and The but one-on-one or small group interactions can be great opportunities for a stalker to you know kind of approach physically, um which can be very, very uncomfortable and create, so you know at a minimum, an awkward situation. And then, of course, those where there are minimal security.
00:28:53
Speaker
you know, those are those would be the ones that could generally present the most significant risks, which those three aspects probably run the gamut of like all types of things. So we talked about how the stockers are so often motivated by that obsessive desire for personal connection. um And these types of events can often provide them with the opportunities to approach interact with or even sort of engage in or infiltrate in that celebrity's life.
00:29:16
Speaker
From my experience, I've seen the greatest risk to to my celebrity protectees introduced through unanticipated environments. So let's say the protectee is going to an environment that has you know individuals in that environment that are more dangerous than their typical environment.
00:29:36
Speaker
Oftentimes, that will make me worry more than if they're going to the Oscars or or you know going to a celebrity-infused event. Because oftentimes, the expectations around celebrity events involve a lot of law enforcement, a lot of planning, a lot of you know redundant layers of protection.
00:29:52
Speaker
to where a lot of these you know events or clubs or or different environments, you know house parties, that the celebrities go to have zero infrastructure, have zero you know planning. It's just a bunch of people going to have fun, and a lot of people that are there to have fun aren't security-minded. Introducing the celebrity who typically might not need an elevated security posture goes into that environment and then i'll all of a sudden finds themselves as the you know a secondary impact of a consequence that was intended for somebody else. you know And I can think of off the top of my head, five different situations that my teams have encountered where that has happened. And just like that, it became extremely you know apparent that this is not the place we want to be right now. Well, we're talking to Dr. Angie Lewis and Caleb Gilbert about the threats to celebrities from stalkers. After the break, we'll talk about protection and security.
00:30:53
Speaker
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00:31:17
Speaker
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00:31:35
Speaker
All right, so let's talk a little bit about how we can defend against this threat then. So what sort of security arrangements do celebrities have? Talk us through what that kind of looks like from end to end, from ah ah you know keeping a celebrity safe as they go out and do their jobs.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah, so i you know I think it runs the gamut and it really depends on, you know again, the celebrity, what the level of prominence is in the public eye. It can start with you know people who are there to to monitor the interactions on their social media, to kind of see what's out there, what kind of comments are being made.
00:32:12
Speaker
what their fan base is interacting with and a lot of times this actually pops up very easily just in terms of publicity you know PR teams are starting to see these things because they recognize. Awkward interactions or things that are kind of a mess from you know their the norm and so that's a lot of times you know a good starting point.
00:32:32
Speaker
but you know you have everything from that i'm straight to you know physical security teams with drivers and you'll establish you know guards at doors for events and you know things like that so i can really run. Pretty a pretty wide array of security options depending on the level of perceived threat to an individual and then also you know what the level of comfort is for you know that that talent in terms of you know do they want something that is a bit more of a you know prominent stance where
00:33:06
Speaker
you know they have bodyguards who are you know physically present and there and you know kind of visible or do they want something that's gonna be a little bit more under wraps where maybe people don't always realize what their level of security is so it can really be quite a wide array.
00:33:21
Speaker
and And really looking at the specific threats of each celebrity is is very important because when you when you say celebrity, that covers such a broad swath of individuals, but let's face it, not every celebrity can afford the level of protection they need. So oftentimes we see the studios are the ones that are actually providing the security for a lot of these celebrities because in order to sustain the salaries, in order to be able to effectively mitigate the risks, it costs more money than most celebrities have you know in their disposal resources looking at at even the celebrities there's a lot of room for improvement because traditionally speaking we're looking at guards guns and gates as the traditional mechanisms of mitigating these risks.
00:34:07
Speaker
With the new risks that have come on board, we have to look beyond that. you know One of the things that we focus on is digital executive protection. you know Taking a look at each individual's digital footprint, look at the people around them. Find where the the bad actors might use it as a vector to get in. Is it the staff? Is it their protection team? you know Like I mentioned before, I had Paparazzi followed me home after I worked for an A-list celebrity, offering me millions of dollars to to you know collaborate with them on a shop. you know What is that that risk factor that comes in and how can we get ahead of that?
00:34:42
Speaker
That is really what what I suggest you know people focus in is in is is the primary focus of of what I do. is What is digital executive protection? What level level of protection is appropriate for for the celebrity based on the risks that are facing them? and How can you prioritize the mitigation strategies based on the needs of that specific celebrity?
00:35:06
Speaker
Kayla brings up a really great point there in terms of the the digital protection and what does that look like? And so for a lot of folks, our public information is out there, you know your address, your phone number, you know things like that, you know at a very basic level, making those things harder to come by.
00:35:25
Speaker
you know, obscuring that information, whether it's by legal means and and sort of creating addresses that, you know, maybe are more visible, but are not the physical address of the home, you know, things like that. So there are ways of, at a baseline, undermining the ability of a stocker to find that individual. um It can also be, you know, means of trying to alter their pattern of life, you know, the things that, you know, what's the route to work or, you know, are they doing the same thing every single day? And so making it just a little bit more difficult to find that information online in the digital world, I think can be really, really important. And it's a very important first step for a lot of celebrities, but whether it's A-list executives, like those kinds of things, too. So that is a very important piece that that Kayla brought up.
00:36:17
Speaker
One of the things that I love to do on my teams is talk about vulnerability assessments, literally taking a look at their digital footprint and see, all right, if if there are hostels out there seeking to do nefarious things to the people we're interested to protect, what can we do both from an Intel perspective and a protective perspective to prioritize the risk mitigation strategies that will be most effective? Yeah, that that makes sense. And Caleb, you also mentioned costs earlier.
00:36:45
Speaker
I'm very curious, how much does security for an A-list celebrity cost and what's the range of the size of a security team or other protective teams that are working for something like that? Be it the people looking at you know online presence, social media, the bodyguards, everyone else looking at cameras, whatnot how how big is is that whole operation and and how do you how do you pay for that and and and how much is it?
00:37:10
Speaker
Definitely. you know it's ah It's an interesting discussion. I just actually finished in an 18 month analysis of the industry to look at where the numbers are. And surprisingly, the the celebrities amount that they spend on their protection teams is relatively low. Now I'd make the argument that that ah those low numbers are by and large because they're hiring individuals that may not necessarily be able to mitigate the level of risk that they're that they're you know faced with. you know if you If you have a security posture that includes a you know at least intelligence assets, so you're actually doing a risk-based protection program. If you're including a team with you know a structured physical security presence, structured you know security posture that is all inclusive of this celebrity's lifestyle, it's not cheap. It can be anywhere you know from
00:38:09
Speaker
from you know one agent to quite a few agents. and and it's it's It's not cheap to mitigate the risk that you see in ah in a lot of these celebrities. you know you look at you know A lot of the numbers have been posted from you know ah you know royalty details going into LA and a lot of their spends that are that are you know shared back and forth. and I will say that those numbers are very much inaccurate.
00:38:33
Speaker
you know that the average celebrity themselves pays less than most people think. And the average celebrity that has a sufficient security posture pays more than people think.
00:38:46
Speaker
Caleb, you mentioned earlier paparazzi trying to pay you off to participate. so I just want to dive back in on that. What does insider risk look like in celebrity protection? you know How do you assure privacy and security when when anyone in their entourage could face similar incentives? and Also, I imagine you know people want to brag, people want to share things about what they do. you know and I imagine that carries a lot of risk too.
Insider Risks and OSINT
00:39:08
Speaker
Absolutely. you know I would say that ah the insider risk of celebrities is more of a risk than certainly is attributed to it, simply because of the culture of the celebrity scene. By and large, you look at individuals who are working in Hollywood the majority of the time with these celebrities. You're you're talking about individuals that are either in a in a secondary phase of their career, you did something else, and they're doing this part-time.
00:39:36
Speaker
Or you're talking about individuals who are trying to become celebrities themselves and are doing this as kind of a secondary plan because they couldn't make it as a celebrity themselves. And so a lot of my interactions with people in Hollywood, to be perfectly frank, were less than professional. you know They were people that they were were there to make a buck, they were there to make a living, and they didn't aspire to the same level of professionalism as I've seen in a lot of other verticals within the protection world. you know So I'd say this is definitely an area that can increase, but also you get what you pay for.
00:40:06
Speaker
You know, at the end of the day, if you're going to pay somebody a security guard fee to stand in front of a A-list celebrity's house and you can expect them not to take a multi-million dollar bribe.
00:40:18
Speaker
what are you Are you basing your expectations on reality or are you actually curating a team that can accurately protect the w risks facing your Protect E? I think it has to be a holistic process looking at the overall culture of the organization. Unfortunately, Hollywood has so much turnover that it's ridiculous. You know you see contracts turning over all the time and oftentimes they turn over for $2 an hour you know, rate change in in the guard feed, you know, and and so with that turnover comes a lot of individuals who are not necessarily loyal to the brand, loyal to the celebrity and not loyal to the company. And that brings with it animosity, hurt feelings, you know, and and exposure to yeah a lot of the tell-alls that we've seen, you know, from both East Coast and West Coast celebrities to where the the individual has
00:41:07
Speaker
Zero professionalism and so they write a book about the inner dwellings of the celebrity's life and you know a I've been in in several situations over the course of my career to where somebody that I worked with wrote a book and it made me so mad because, you know, 90% of the book was completely false, but they actually worked the celebrity. So they sold it, they made their money and went on to something else, you know? And so the harm to reputation of the protection industry is what I see as the greatest risk there. Cause most people know that some of the outlandish things that some of the uh, you know, people that expose celebrities say aren't actually grounded in truth. Yeah. and And you know, like, you know, Caleb's talking about this, it extends to the entire entourage too, right? So, you know, you're, you have a lot of people who want to be close to a celebrity for a number of reasons, not all of them due to loyalty. And that can be, you know, they may not be a professional and it could be, you know, whether it's, you know, in a PR role or, you know, something like that as well. So,
00:42:11
Speaker
That actually also feeds into those that psychological risk that a lot of you know celebrities face because of that isolationism. you know Who can you trust? Who do you know that genuinely has your back? If somebody is going to try to pay off someone in your entourage to get the shot or you know to put you in a position where they can approach you or what have you,
00:42:33
Speaker
Can you trust the people around you? um And that's really challenging. And so, you know, having somebody in a, you know, security intel role who can affect do effective background checks, who can understand sort of the motivations of the people around that celebrity can only serve to, you know, help and support them. But again, you know, it's not something that is and incredibly cheap.
00:42:55
Speaker
So being able to kind of have and that support system can be really important depending on how um how high level you know a star rises. I just want to drill down on something you said there. As you talked about you know the Intel role in the background, yeah how is how is intelligence, and in particular, I'm quite interested about open source intelligence changing the protection game. I regularly see celebrity jets being tracked openly online. There are entire accounts dedicated in some cases to tracking single celebrities' jets. you know I'd imagine this level of just access to information about people's movements probably makes protection a lot more challenging.
00:43:31
Speaker
It definitely makes it more challenging. The amount of information that is out there about any one A-lister or executive can be incredibly disturbing from ah from the side of a person who wants to protect that information, to protect that individual.
00:43:47
Speaker
And so you know we talked a little bit about that digital footprint and you know what are the means. And so kind of flipping OSINT on its head and being able to say, okay, if I do a vulnerability assessment and I look out there and I say, here's all this information I can find on this individual, a potential stopper can find that too. So then you have an idea of the the ways that you want to approach what needs to be taken down, what can we do.
00:44:10
Speaker
And then you know you have a lot of talent too that you know maybe said some things they shouldn't have said earlier in their lives and you know that's not gonna go well for their professional reputation as their star rises and so. Knowing those things ahead of time and kind of just understanding the playing field like what is out there that is going to present a concern that we can then address and i think that's the the first you know first step of it so.
00:44:35
Speaker
No saint can be really useful for a stalker to go after you know ah but you know a victim but it's also really useful for those of us who are trying to you know service protect in the protection role and try to identify you know what's out there and what are those risks.
00:44:51
Speaker
that you know they might face because of that information. So I would say that it kind of is a double-edged sword um in that sense, but it's also kind of fascinating and it it goes back to, you know and I think we'll talk about it a little bit more later, just being cautious about what you're putting out there in in the digital world too.
Communicating Risk to Celebrities
00:45:08
Speaker
And I might add for that, the importance of our analysts to convey that information in a way that the consumer can understand. One of the things that I've that i've found over time is most of the time we develop these amazing reports and we submit them to the decision maker and they're like, that's great. I have no idea what you're saying.
00:45:29
Speaker
You know, and so the process of actually immersing analysts in with to understand what is important to the protectee and how to communicate in their language is something that I've found to be extremely useful.
00:45:44
Speaker
because being able to communicate hard this is your risk and how it relates to you personally you know i know that you like to have your your you know trip to aspen every year at the same time here but here's a blog in you know entirely devoted to posting pictures of you getting on and off the plane there when you're always doing that right.
00:46:01
Speaker
like Speaking in a way, conveying that risk in a in a way that they understand it to the decision-maker is an incredibly important connection to have that valuable tool emphasized in a way they can understand and not feel almost belittled by. You spoke a lot about you know some of these celebrities not necessarily having the level of protection that they should. Have you ever come across situations where celebrities didn't actually want the protection that they clearly needed and that was being implemented for them. Or, you know, where celebrities or even members of their close circle would try to escape and run away from their protection. All the time, all the time. I've even had celebrities at awards shows that came up to me and said, hey, I should have had somebody, this guy's following me, can you come help me? You know, when I'm working another protective, you know, it's like I'm fired for remorse. You know, it happens all the time, especially when they're familiar with, you with with you know,
00:46:57
Speaker
ah you having a product a productive relationship with with the protectee, certainly you know it's there. But at the end of the day, you know it it is very expensive for a celebrity to have full-time protectors. you know And so for them to become comfortable either has to take a catastrophic incident where they're introduced to competent individuals, or you have to have someone you know really implementing a structured plan to be able to implement that with their long-term strategy and showing the risks that are associated with it. you know all right How would you investigate stalkers? And then once you have investigated them, how do you discourage any future iterations of something like that happening? I know from from my you know perspective, you know the the first thing that we generally do is we want to figure out who is this individual. Ideally, you want to know their motivation. You want to understand kind of where they're coming from and and what their
00:47:51
Speaker
purpose is in stalking because that gives you a little bit of insight into kind of what their end goal is and what their objective is. But really the first start is kind of understanding you know identity, legal background, OSINT. If you can get some some feedback on maybe their you know, have they been charged with anything in the past? Do they have access to firearms? Do they, you know, or, you know, other weapons? ah Do they have a history of this type of behavior? so Those kinds of things can be really, really important. Do they have the means to, you know, if they say have sent a lot of emails or done things online, do they have the means to travel to where, you know, the protectee is located?
00:48:37
Speaker
A lot of those different things are questions that we want to ask and we want to understand the background of. And so in that sense, really, you just do a deep dive. You want to know everything you possibly can about the individual um because that's what helps you to sort of assess the level of threat that they pose. But it, you know, really under it starts with just starting that OSINT and kind of legal background is where I typically start. I don't know, Caleb, what about you?
00:49:03
Speaker
Couldn't agree with you more. you know You look at your traditional vector for identifying a you know threat, no threat. you know Do they have the means? Do they have the the proximity? um And do they have the intent? right So pairing those three together, what I like to do is I like to ask my analysts to take a step back and put themselves in the the shoes of of the nefarious individual.
00:49:24
Speaker
right Live a day in their shoes. When you're doing your work, when you're when you're conducting your OSINT, whatever level that we're following through, look at it through their mind. Try to understand their perspective. If I was writing this post, what would my perspective be given that I have this XYZ background? right Because so many things can get lost.
00:49:43
Speaker
in the spaces and commas and answers and emotional responses versus well-prepared responses. What is that driver going going forward and and how could that impact what this person might or might not do? you know Obviously, we can't guess. We don't have a crystal ball, but we do know that we can identify trends that will will fall in line with trends that we know to either escalate or de-escalate the level of risk that that you know these are facing.
00:50:14
Speaker
At the end of the day, we know that people that often have a flamboyant response oftentimes are less of a risk to to actually committing the incident, statistically speaking, than someone who sits back and maybe has poignant you know targeted answers, well-calculated answers, or or things like that, right? And so you know oftentimes the loudest person in the room is not necessarily the one who presents the greatest risk. And so understanding, all right, is this you know perhaps a diversion? Is this a distraction? Is this someone that can be addressed by by giving them a little bit of ah appropriate attention?
00:50:50
Speaker
You know, or is this someone that is a motivated adversary who actually intends to carry out a nefarious act that could harm my protecting? In the first half of the show, you talked about you know social media and how it's somewhat fueling this risk. and that That made me think about ah the ah robbery of a high-profile celebrity in Paris following, I believe, photos of some quite expensive jewellery in the hotel they were staying at, being shared in social media. and I'm really curious, how are things like that handled by protected teams, especially given that celebrities
00:51:23
Speaker
you know they kind of need to be active on social media as part of their job. And I suppose a ah secondary question is, are there celebrities that are being trained to post on social media, but with you know operational security in mind, to post with privacy in mind? How how does the whole dynamic work?
00:51:40
Speaker
I will tell you there are some celebrities that I will not work with and there's very specific reasons why I won't work with them. you know um We talked about insider threats. We talked about threats that originate from the Protect E. All of those things I think are salient in in this discussion. I'm not going to point any fingers at whom doing what, but I think you know any investigation that lays out the the logical framework of this series of events that leads to an incident like that,
00:52:07
Speaker
It leaves a lot of questions. We'll leave it at that. I think that looking at at individuals who are positioning themselves in a protective posture that they know is inadequate for the risks facing their Protect E are two things. you know They're either intentional or they're purposefully you know putting themselves in a position that they know will fail.
00:52:27
Speaker
right So be cognizant of that. you know ah Celebrities are going to do what celebrities are going to do. Celebrities are celebrities for a reason. It's because they've done something to get attention of individuals. Celebrities oftentimes are not well structured. They don't have the you know career progression of a lot of corporate leaders. They don't have a lot of you know foundational basis for what they do. They just say crazy things. They they do do things that attract attention and that attention attracts the crowds that that compensate them, right? And so, ah you know, I worked celebrities in the past to where I didn't even know who the celebrity was until I worked for them with them for over an hour because they were a celebrity and they weren't acting like a celebrity, they were just acting like another cool cat on the cast, right? And then I worked celebrities that said their own name 50 times before you met them and it's just, you know, you could tell it's all about them. And so I think
00:53:25
Speaker
celebrities celebrities have to attract attention. There's always expensive things around them. You know, I will say that probably the most disappointing part of my early career was going and and working my first Academy Awards. And right before the show started, I saw somebody spray painting the golden statue and I was like, wait a minute, this isn't real gold. You got to be kidding me. Like my entire image of this is corrupt.
00:53:49
Speaker
So that was a little reality check on celebrity life. But and that being said, there are real jewelry that that go out with all of these celebrities. There is you know insane amounts of valuable things. I will say that oftentimes celebrities will have protection that is paid for by the jewelry company and not by the celebrity themselves, you know which which blew my mind when I first moved to Hollywood because I was like,
00:54:17
Speaker
um watch a bracelet for a week and a half, you know, i'm flying all over the world, watching a bracelet. This is kind of cool, you know, but realistically, the value and the potential for loss for that, for that piece is, is extreme, you know? And so recognizing that as well as where those threat vectors might come from. you know If this piece of jewelry has been well-publicized that it's going to be at these three three locations across the world in the next week, they're going to know that there's a lot of transit, there's a lot of you know change in my hands that's going to happen with it. Does that increase the need for a you know protective posture that is more comprehensive? right All of those things, just kind of understanding the vector that the different threats could follow to get to whatever it is you're protecting or whomever it is.
00:55:01
Speaker
are incredibly important as well as relying on your Intel team for but for those tidbits of information. Absolutely. Yeah. you know I mean, Kayla brought up that there is that gray area. You definitely have you know some celebrities who are you know doing everything they can to like garner that attention and they're you know posting things on social media and whatnot that You know may not be advisable um and so ah you know an ideal world you have somebody you know on your production team who is advising you and saying hey this is probably not a great idea maybe you don't want to do this or at least helping to. Moderate how it's portrayed or posted or something like that whether it's you know after the fact or something along those lines to not garner unwanted attention but there's also wanted attention and social media is really really important for that for a lot of.
00:55:50
Speaker
celebrities and for brands and so Caleb kind of brought up that that like brand partnership and so you know whether you know you have a high um profile item um with a high profile individual and you want them tied together on social media because it's gone it's going to garner attention that presents a challenge for you know people in the protection field because now you have two things that are garnering attention and you kind of have this perfect storm and You can't say, no, we don't want to do that at all because that's part of their celebrity. That's part of you know their job effectively. But really trying to find a way to approach it so you're not engendering a risk that you don't need to, um I think is the important thing. And and you don't always have, ah some celebrities are very, very open to that and some are not. um And that's, I think the challenge that Kayla was talking about trying to figure out how to work with.
Protecting Non-Celebrities
00:56:44
Speaker
What about ordinary people?
00:56:46
Speaker
that wouldn't have security teams like celebrities might have. Is there anything that a non-frameless person can do to try and avoid sort of ending up in a situation like that with a stalker and and and making sure they're not encouraging, but rather discouraging things? Anything in particular we talked about, obstacle-ready privacy. What can we normal folks do to avoid being in a situation like that?
00:57:07
Speaker
I think this is a super important question. um I know I personally have a very, very good friend who has been the victim of a stalker. I've definitely looked at this from a you know not only being sort of in this protection field, but also as a best friend um and wanting to to know the best ways to you know protect her. so I'd say first and foremost, you know be mindful of personal boundaries.
00:57:30
Speaker
And exercise clear communication. One of the kind of most important ways ah to avoid encouraging stalker behavior is by establishing and maintaining those clear boundaries early on. um And that is in all types of relationships. um If someone begins showing interest or behavior that feels too intense or inappropriate early,
00:57:49
Speaker
um So maybe frequent communication or unwelcome attention or you know maybe even emotional dependence of some sort. It's important to politely but firmly express the need for space and make it clear that that behavior is not welcome. Once those boundaries are set, um it's important to be consistent um in reinforcing them. So mixed signals such as you know being really friendly but not setting clear limits.
00:58:10
Speaker
that can confuse someone and might lead to them thinking that the relationship with them is maybe closer or or more intimate than it actually is. And then of course, you know, being cautious with social media. That online presence um is is crucial, um limiting that personal information that is shared out there. um Sharing too much personal information online can provide potential stalkers or stalkers with details about your daily life, your habits, where you are.
00:58:36
Speaker
limiting what you post on social media and adjusting those privacy settings to control who sees your posts, avoiding oversharing, you know, refraining for posting your exact location and in your schedule, um in real time at least, includes check-ins, photos of your home,
00:58:52
Speaker
you know overly personal content that might invite unwanted attention. I know we're you know really talking about the average individual right now, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen a celebrity post something on social media that made me as a security professional want to cringe because with just a couple of clicks on ah a Google Maps or a targeted search, I could identify exactly where they're located. um And if I can do it, I'm sure somebody else can do it too. And it's even worse, I would say I'm a mom. So when They post things about their kids. To me, that's even more cringe-worthy because you know that is an additional consideration. um I would also say speaking of social media, it's important to um review your connections regularly. People that you don't know well or may who might have exhibited sort of inappropriate behavior.
00:59:36
Speaker
and secure your accounts um using strong passwords and two factor authentication all those kinds of things as well. So I would say, you know, I would say being cautious with communication, setting boundaries, um and trusting your intuition. um That's an important one that I think a lot of people ah kind of ignore, they want to be friendly, they want to be nice, they want to be you know polite, but it is okay to be direct and polite. So if you're receiving unwanted or uncomfortable attention, addressing it immediately. um You don't have to engage in prolonged conversations, but you have to set that boundary early um and be confident about it. Because giving attention to someone who's behaving inappropriately can encourage further unwanted attention. So staying firm,
01:00:17
Speaker
you know, kind of making sure that things are progressing, you know, whether it's a friendship or relationship, you know, and a new contact that's progressing at a um rate that is comfortable and not overly intimate too quickly. I think those are um also important. And then, you know, knowing how to block and report on what a behavior and knowing what resources are available to you, I think are important too.
01:00:39
Speaker
yeah Absolutely. I would say digital executive protection isn't just for celebrities or executives. you know The individual can go out to a company like 360 privacy or somebody like that that has the access to be able to go in and do those digital sweeps and let you know what information is out there and what you can do to mitigate it. At the end of the day, you look at most threat vectors that that impact an individual. They're through personal relationships, but they're compounded Buy the digital footprint and so you know being able to take and try and and do as much as you can to eliminate exactly like you said i'm eliminate that as much as possible or mitigate what you can't eliminate.
01:01:23
Speaker
ah extremely important. and The other thing is, you know, simple things, take a screenshot of your photo before you, you know, post it online. Sure. You know, most of, most of the social media, you know, we'll scrub that now, but some of them do not. Right. And so little things, proactive things that you can do, take a, take a look and see. And also, you know, for, for ladies that are out there meeting a new individual, do a little bit of open source your yourself, be proactive, you know, with, with your life and just see, is this individual, you know, someone who I want to, you know, move forward with?
01:01:54
Speaker
Is there is there any anything I should be worried about? Proactive steps like that are very useful, don't cost a lot of money, and can save tons of grief when it comes to you know somebody that that becomes obsessed or or you know does does activities that are out of line with expectations. That's fantastic advice. Thank you so much.
AI's Impact on Security
01:02:17
Speaker
so One question we we always finish this show on ah is what keeps you up at night? you know Working in in a world where the stakes are pretty high given some of the you you know the the the risks we've talked about here, what what was the nightmare scenario? you know what's the What's the biggest risk here?
01:02:33
Speaker
I would say for me, the secondary and tertiary impacts of AI definitely are impacts that heat me up at night. ah The more I become aware of the potential, the more ah I'm looking for reassurance that there's mitigation strategies that are being developed you know alongside.
01:02:53
Speaker
um Obviously, we we don't necessarily know the full impact and what it will bring, but what we do know is that the landscape is changing. and so the The risk mitigation strategies that have worked in years past, in decades past, aren't necessarily going to correlate to what will help us tomorrow. and to me that's a challenge To me, it's a something that excites me and scares me at the same time because the consequences can be so deeply personal with the you know evolution of of technology, with the development into areas that you know it's just it's new territory, it's a new frontier and exciting and you know scary at the same time.
01:03:36
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. You know, Kayla brought up a key word for me, and and that's the the deeply personal nature of all of this stuff. um And that is the thing that that bothers me the most, both when it comes to stalkers and who may have you know an emotional feel that they have an emotional connection um with a celebrity, with a protective, but then also just the emotional impact it has on on celebrities, on people who are victims of stalking, and just Knowing that even though we can mitigate a lot of these risks when it does happen it has those psychological impacts and that bothers me to no end because i, that's not something that i can fix and i you know so it's really avoidance and trying to stop it from happening before it does is. The only way to kind of avoid those emotional scars um and and so that's what i think bothers me the most about it.
01:04:30
Speaker
Dr. Angie Lewis and Caleb Gilbert, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for having us. You've been listening to How to Get on a Watch List. Our producer for this episode was Edwin Tran. Our researchers were Alex Smith and Archie Hickox. To all our listeners and Patreon supporters, thank you so much for listening to and supporting How to Get on a Watch List.
01:04:52
Speaker
If you enjoyed this show, please consider checking out our other content at Encyclopedia Geopolitica. We'd also appreciate it if you could subscribe to the podcast, leave a of review, or support us on Patreon. Thanks for listening.
01:05:27
Speaker
9-1-1, what's your emergency?