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39 - The Third Wave
71 Plays2 months ago
Jeff shares the story of Mr. Jones and The Third Wave.
The Third Wave was an experimental movement created by high school history teacher Ron Jones in 1967 to explain how the German population could have accepted the actions of the Nazi regime during the rise of the Third Reich and the Second World War.
While Jones taught his students about Nazi Germany during his senior-level Contemporary World History class, he found it difficult to explain how the German people could have accepted the actions of the Nazis. He decided to create a fictional social movement as a demonstration of the appeal of fascism. Over the course of five days (or nine, according to student Sherry Toulsey), Mr. Jones conducted a series of exercises in his classroom emphasizing discipline and community, intended to model certain characteristics of the Nazi movement.
As the movement grew outside his class and began to number in the hundreds, the experiment spiraled out of control.
Sam's phrase of the week: vortex of fuckery
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Promotion
00:00:00
Jeff Rogers
Hello, Sam. hi Jeffrey. Mind the gap.
00:00:27
Jeff Rogers
Welcome to Down the Rabbit Hole with Jeff and Sam. I'm Jeff. And I'm Sam. Hey, hey, you find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:39
Jeff Rogers
As long as it's one of those. As long as it's one of those. How about we say it like that? um You can follow us, rate, review, subscribe.
00:00:50
Jeff Rogers
Tell us what you think about us. Leave us some love. Let us know what we can do better. um if you need to contact us. Down the right at holdapod at gmail.com. Or on Instagram. Our magical Alan has done something totally next level with that.
00:01:08
Jeff Rogers
I tried. Cute picture did today. Did you see it? yeah whatever I did. I loved it. Yeah. But on Instagram we are Down the rabbit hole the pod. um Reach out to us. Let us know. Follow us.
00:01:19
Jeff Rogers
See what you think. It's fine over here. We have a good time. we have a good time. Some people also tell us that they have a good time. Right. Absolutely. And mind the gap. by Why am I saying mind the gap? Why do I have mind the gap?
00:01:33
Jeff Rogers
But please say it in the appropriate accent. I can't. It's just mind the gap. Mind the gap. Oh, there it was. There it was. That was it. Mind the gap. Mind the gap.
00:01:45
Jeff Rogers
Nope. Now you're just bringing your voice deeper. Mind gap. You need an accent. but You need an accent, not a deeper voice. What kind of accent? Oh, that's true. What kind of accent? A British one. Why British?
London Trip Adventures
00:01:56
Jeff Rogers
Because we just, not just, but a week ago returned from London. Ugh. Remember the last episode? was like, Sam's going to have... She will have peed in an alleyway somewhere. She did not pee in an alley.
00:02:12
Jeff Rogers
As far as you're aware. As far as I'm aware. I bet you Jonathan would know. Mind the gap. I probably will. I don't know. He's not from London proper. he's been there.
00:02:23
Jeff Rogers
Hopefully. I don't know. and Maybe not. I mean, there's a lot of people have never been to d c D.C. D.C.' 's like the London of Nova, yeah. So maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. But jo Jonathan, Dr. R, are we...
00:02:35
Jeff Rogers
We're thinking about you today because we have been building up to this trip for many, many months. um And I knew I was talking to you the last time I worked with you about what to do. And here we post trip.
00:02:50
Jeff Rogers
London was so much fun. it was I enjoyed the people that we met. They were fun and funny and very nice people. um
00:03:02
Jeff Rogers
It's hard to pinpoint for me a favorite part of the trip. I think it was the six of us being at dinner Notting Hill at Walmart Castle was the name of the restaurant. Thanks for stealing mine.
00:03:15
Jeff Rogers
Was that your moment? That was it. Well, I mean, that's fair. I think that's probably everybody's moment. It was perfect That was on day one after 35 hours of maybe no sleep or very little sleep.
00:03:27
Jeff Rogers
And we're at this dinner at this very cute little restaurant, Notting Hill. And we're having the time of our lives. It's just so much fun. And then Ashley moved.
00:03:38
Jeff Rogers
And when she did, I saw that her shadow on the table and it scared the shit out of me. And I jumped because of a shadow. That's how sleep deprived. a little sleepy. I was a little sleepy.
00:03:50
Jeff Rogers
little delirious. Very delirious. and it was and Then we saw a Book of Mormon. Front row Book of Mormon seats. My God.
00:04:01
Jeff Rogers
In London. In London. That fun. At the Prince of Wales Theatre. So cool. and the Doing the London Eye with the VIP access and Twirling our umbrellas.
00:04:16
Jeff Rogers
But I think just the walking around parts, you know, we we we had things to do and get to, but then there was so much of us just being ourselves, walking down the street all over London.
00:04:30
Jeff Rogers
We took the tube, plenty of different places, and we fucking mastered it. We mastered the tube. I do have to say that when I say we, mostly just Alan, because the last day that you and I were there alone,
00:04:43
Jeff Rogers
We sort of didn't master the two. It mastered us. It mastered That's okay. You know what? That's okay because whenever I go to another country, part of the experience usually is you're going to go the wrong way.
00:04:55
Jeff Rogers
Just get lost. You will get lost. You will go the wrong way. But the good thing is you can always find your way back. It's so easy do. And the things that you discover along the way. Absolutely.
00:05:06
Jeff Rogers
It was great. i There is no... We went to London with the desire to go somewhere cold and gloomy-ish and a little ah winter
00:05:21
Jeff Rogers
A winter trip. We wanted a winter trip, not to a summer destination. think that we failed in one aspect because... It was nothing but sunshine. It was sunshine. Sunshine.
00:05:32
Jeff Rogers
and you know, I have to say, ah staying in Notting Hill was the best part. ah You know, there was, especially, i really thought it was the best part when we took the tube into, like, the downtown London area, and we got off, and it was, like, Manhattan.
00:05:48
Jeff Rogers
It was so New York. And I was so happy that our flat was in Notting Hill. Got back on that tube, went back home, and it was like you get out of the station into this beautiful calm.
00:06:02
Jeff Rogers
And I think that that is the ambivert in us because we did okay. We did the thing and in deep London. And then we get to go home and sit.
00:06:13
Jeff Rogers
in And quiet, naughty hill. You know?
Recording Conditions and Gifts
00:06:15
Jeff Rogers
Yeah. And, you know, we sat and we just listened to some witchy pagan music. um And... Alan and Ashley, Lena, Gare.
00:06:25
Jeff Rogers
ah We're doing it again. going to do that again. Somewhere fabulous. Somewhere fabulous. Putting it out there into the universe. I feel it in my soul. It's going to happen.
00:06:35
Jeff Rogers
So that was London. Yeah. And that was fun. And if you see pictures of us with umbrellas in our hands, just know that That was a blast that night. That's the night we went to Book of Mormon. And that's the night that five minutes into this walk to get on the tube to go to downtown London, i realized that the shoes were eating the skin off of my heels.
00:06:58
Jeff Rogers
So I said, Sam, hold on. Put my hand on your shoulder, kicked the shoes off, walked on them like clogs. So then they became clogs. So in every photo, you kind of look, the shoes are kind of scooted up a little bit.
00:07:11
Jeff Rogers
Couldn't take it. Fucked my heels up. But Ashley, the magnificent creature that she course. That's just so typical. She had her blister patches. And hot dogger, those are not the greatest things. Uh-huh.
00:07:24
Jeff Rogers
We had them. We bought in Italy. And, like, ugh. Whenever you're in Europe, anyone, any of you who are listening, those of you who live there, probably this does not apply because you know.
00:07:34
Jeff Rogers
But people from America who are traveling to Europe, you walk so much more than you could possibly imagine. And it's every moment of it is worth everything because you take in so much. this The shops that we passed, the people that we passed, the...
00:07:52
Jeff Rogers
The Portobello Market, oh, it was perfect. Portobello Market. You just walk for hours and hours you don't even realize it and then your day still going on. Even after dark, it just keeps going. But bring blister patches with you.
00:08:05
Jeff Rogers
Moleskine or blister patches. Good shoes. I only had those just for that one night. But even still, even if you wear shoes that you've worn forever, when you walk, I mean, we were in Italy. We walked, I think, average of 12 miles a day. 12 miles walking That's a lot in any type of shoe. So I highly suggest just have them just in case because someone's going to get blisters.
00:08:28
Jeff Rogers
There's so many things Ashley has pulled out of her bag to give to me over the years. You know? She is in her own right a Mary Poppins, all her own. For fucking real.
00:08:40
Jeff Rogers
Ashley or Mary Poppins. In the most witchy, magical sense. And can I just say, this was from... What we have talked about on the show, I don't think any of you guys would guess that this was actually my first time ever meeting any of these people. I had FaceTimed with them. i have spoken on the phone with them.
00:09:00
Jeff Rogers
um But meeting them in person and being able to hug them and say hi and spend time in their physical presence was something so much more than I could have ever put into words.
00:09:13
Jeff Rogers
Because all of you... are every bit as phantasmagorical as Jeff. And so thank you for making such a wonderful trip.
00:09:26
Jeff Rogers
It was great. It's great. And we're going to do it again. We are. and All over the world. All over the world. What else? um We're doing this show at 6.38 p.m.
00:09:38
Jeff Rogers
on in February. the show is going to come out on the 27th. And sun just went down. The sun just went down. We're making progress. We had a sunny dayto day today. It was 61 degrees. We went for a four-mile walk today. i did And it was wonderful.
00:09:52
Jeff Rogers
The sun went Yes. We got to see our little baby. Emilu... and me lou and that was wonderful ah yeah that was good so that made for a good day um and now we're recording kind of late later than normal so we're gonna see how this goes if we're sleepy be kind to us please just be kind to us anyway also my my left contact is a little wonky right now doing some kind of weird blinking thing over there Kelsey said the same thing. She was like, I think your pupils are not reacting normally. Am I supposed to take you to the hospital? So and we're good.
00:10:29
Jeff Rogers
We're good. Perfect. I'm going to drink Elderflower Starlight.
00:10:37
Jeff Rogers
Seltzer water. So just basically your soul in liquid form. Elderflower, Starlight. Starlight. Starlight is my soul in weaker form. And Sam, I have for you um this also. i god. You're making me happy.
00:10:55
Jeff Rogers
So Jeff has taken upon himself to start buying me beverages um for this. And so I have two options here. Am I i must supposed to drink both of them? That's a lot.
00:11:07
Jeff Rogers
ah You drink whichever one you want. Okay. We're going to go with this guy. It's going to be a day. um this is a This is a pint. of hard twisted tea peach version.
00:11:23
Jeff Rogers
and i said that like I didn't buy it. You said o But hey, here's my most important question. Jeff, what are we drinking out of right now? Oh, Kelsey, yo, for the win.
00:11:34
Jeff Rogers
i can't with you. You're amazing. Yes. all the All the things. I second that. ah this glass These two glasses that Kelsey made for us. Biersteins. Biersteins.
00:11:44
Jeff Rogers
And ah she etched in them a story worth telling. Because sometimes when I tell... And I know that this is where this comes from. i tell a really horrible story and I have to, in my mind, if it's like about this beautiful person that once lived and now they're dead because of some stupid, you know, person, human that murdered them.
00:12:07
Jeff Rogers
always remember it's a story worth telling because they had a good life, a life that needs to be talked about. And exactly. People need to know. So Kelsey made us these beer signs with this etched into them and it's just fabulous and thank you Kelsey and that was a good walk with you today. I enjoyed that.
00:12:25
Jeff Rogers
Thanks for coming down. So if you're unwinding from work listening to this Kelsey, just know that, thank you. um Cheers Queers.
00:12:36
Jeff Rogers
Cheers Queers. To London and all that was and all that it will be. um Oh, that's delicious. Is it good? Oh my god.
00:12:48
Jeff Rogers
Better than the southern peach? Yeah. This is dangerous because you can't taste alcohol. Just tastes like peach tea. Ooh, really? Yeah. um Okay, so now next on our list is to decide who goes first.
00:13:11
Jeff Rogers
so It has to be one of the British ones. I think it's only appropriate that we use our... I knew that you would pick that one. How? Just because it was the biggest and the flashiest and the most British.
00:13:23
Jeff Rogers
Which is so unlike me. I just, I said that there with all the other coins that we got from London and actually all around the world. Yeah, we had quite a collection. I put that one on the – I just knew that was the one you were going to pick up because I know you that well by now.
00:13:38
Jeff Rogers
Because personally, I am not the biggest or the flashiest, but I do like flashy big things. So, no. Nope. No, I just like flashy things.
00:13:52
Jeff Rogers
Okay, so you, sir, are going to be the tower bridge. Okay, which we were in the top of. We went to the top of the tower We sat on top of the glass. Yo, that's insane. Overlooking.
00:14:03
Jeff Rogers
and ok wait. You know what I'm going to just tell you, right? we We were in the Tower Bridge. We were like two floors above the actual bridge where the cars were underneath us and they have a glass floor.
00:14:15
Jeff Rogers
So I'm like, can we get somebody? Let's ask somebody to take a picture of us sitting on the glass floor. And she was very lovely. She said, sure, that's no problem. She had a kid with her.
00:14:26
Jeff Rogers
She was very excited to take it. She was so excited to take it. She completely cut her fucking heads off. Well, before we realized that she cut her heads off, she was thrilled. With the picture she took. Like, she was so proud that she had taken these pictures of the twos of us, sitting on the glass, overlooking the river on the tower bridge. She was like, these are great. These are gold.
00:14:47
Jeff Rogers
They're going to love them. And then she walked away. But she said, do you want to check them first? We're like, no, we're good. We're good. Because she was youngish. She was probably just a few years older than I am. And when we looked at them, our heads were not in the picture.
00:15:02
Jeff Rogers
Our heads were completely, I mean, really, like at the chin. Just cut off. From the chin down. And then the glass underneath us. And I mean, it was cool because you could see the thing. kind of funny, actually.
00:15:13
Jeff Rogers
But, yeah, that was. So then we did it again for this lovely, like, French couple. Oh, they were magnificent. Everything French. Magnificent. Yeah, so we got the coin. We're going to see who goes first.
00:15:27
Jeff Rogers
Maybe I shouldn't. This is hard to flip. It's a big-ass coin. You hear that thud? I think our neighbors heard that thud. It wasn't a dead body. Let me get it.
00:15:39
Jeff Rogers
and Maybe it was. Okay. Sam threw the coin across the room. Sorry. It's okay. It's very dense. Okay, it's the tower bridge, sir.
00:15:49
Jeff Rogers
You are up. All right. Sorry, what? All right. I'm sorry, no, no. You said something else said all right. yeah I said all right. What do way you talk?
00:16:01
Jeff Rogers
What do you talk? Put this on my little coaster, Kelsey, my Jeff and Sam coaster. Honestly, she's going to have a whole ass wall in our pod studio. This is like so becoming a thing.
00:16:11
Jeff Rogers
This is great. She's going to go on the board. Yes. Watch out, Kelsey. You're now on our board. You're now on the board, ba Kelsey, she's actually writing your name on the board right now.
00:16:25
Jeff Rogers
i am, but I'm not, don't say what I'm going put. Okay, but Samantha. Sure.
The Classroom Experiment on Authoritarianism
00:16:30
Jeff Rogers
Like if i say the 1960s to you what are some things that pop out in your mind? Just, just first thing.
00:16:38
Jeff Rogers
That there's a mustache on this pen? Yeah. It's not the 60s. No. No. um The beginnings of hippies. The beginnings of hippies. Some real like feel the world, love the world, stop the war.
00:16:54
Jeff Rogers
Kennedy was assassinated, RFK, MLK. bunch of things happened in the 60s, right? So this story that I have for you today it takes place in the sixty s So Alto, California.
00:17:09
Jeff Rogers
and palo alto california Okay? We're going to go to Coverley High School. Nice town, nice area, nice school. More than that, the school is really innovative in that they, shall we say, use unconventional curriculums to teach.
00:17:23
Jeff Rogers
One of the teachers at the school, his name is Mr. Jones. He started teaching at that school in 1965. Master's degree from Stanford. Smart guy. Actually a very smart man.
00:17:35
Jeff Rogers
um Mr. Jones was the teacher that everybody wanted to have. He was also a history teacher and he was really good at it. And like, if you had Mr. Jones in school, the other kids were jealous. And he taught three periods a day.
00:17:48
Jeff Rogers
So it's now March of 1967, and Mr. Jones is teaching about Germany. And right before the time the Third Reich came to power, and like the nineteen thirty s Germany, right?
00:18:00
Jeff Rogers
And one of the students was like, hey, Mr. Jones. Actually, they called him Ron. So because it was the 60s, he was young. He was almost a little older than the students, like 25. So they were like, hey, Ron, like, I don't understand. How did the German people ignore the slaughter of the Jewish people? Like, how did the townspeople, the railroad conductors, the teachers, doctors, nurses claim that they knew nothing about the concentration camps and about the human carnage?
00:18:26
Jeff Rogers
How can people who are neighbors or maybe even friends of the Jewish people say that they weren't there when it happened? And it was a great question, but Mr. Jones didn't know the answer.
00:18:37
Jeff Rogers
So Mr. Jones decided to take a week and explore the question, so he announced next week would be a week for role-playing in class. Now these were good students, all about 15 years old, smart, because it's a good school. It's a good neighborhood, good school.
00:18:56
Jeff Rogers
So on Monday when the students come into the classroom, they would find all the chairs arranged differently so that nobody knew anybody that they were sitting by. And the room was darkened and Mr. Jones had taken down all the posters.
00:19:09
Jeff Rogers
He told the students that this was an experiment, and all who participated would receive an A. If they just went along, they would receive a C. And if they didn't participate, they would get an F. Okay.
00:19:21
Jeff Rogers
That's like a good incentive, right? Yeah. College is coming soon. You've got to get good grades. If you participate, you get an A. So all the teachers and also Mr. Jones' demeanor had changed a little bit.
00:19:35
Jeff Rogers
He wasn't cheerful like usual. And they now that they now had to call him Mr. Jones. Before that, they could call him Ron. So it's an experiment. On Monday, Mr. Jones starts with a lecture about discipline.
00:19:47
Jeff Rogers
He lectured about the beauty of discipline, how an athlete feels having worked hard and regularly to be successful in his sport, how a ballet dancer or painter works hard to perfect a movement, the dedicated patience of a scientist in pursuit of an idea, it's discipline, that self-training, that control, the power of the will,
00:20:08
Jeff Rogers
The exchange of physical hardships for superior mental and physical facilities. The ultimate triumph. To experience the power of discipline, Mr. Jones commanded the class to exercise and use a new seating posture.
00:20:21
Jeff Rogers
He described how proper seating, proper sitting posture assists with mandatory concentration and strengthens the will. In fact, he instructed the class in a sitting posture.
00:20:32
Jeff Rogers
He said, sit with your feet flat on the floor, hands placed flat across the small of your back, sit straight up so that you're lying your a spine is aligned straight, right?
00:20:44
Jeff Rogers
He said, there, can't you breathe more easily? You're more alert, don't you just feel better? so all the students were kind of like, you know what, yeah. So the students practiced this new attention position over and over.
00:20:59
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones walked up and down the aisles of seated students pointing out small flaws. You're not doing that right. Making improvements. Proper seating became the most important aspect of learning.
00:21:11
Jeff Rogers
Proper seating.
00:21:14
Jeff Rogers
Let's see here. So they're just playing a little game. He would dismiss the class following them to leave their desk and then call them abruptly back to the attention sitting position.
00:21:25
Jeff Rogers
In speed drills, the class learned how to move from standing position to a attention sitting position in 15 seconds. In focus drills, he concentrated attention on the feet being parallel flat, ankles locked, knees bent at 90 degree angles, hands flat across the back, spine straight, chin down, head forward.
00:21:43
Jeff Rogers
We did noise drills in which talking was allowed only to be shown as a distraction. Following minutes of progressive drill assignments, the class would then move from standing positions outside the room to attention sitting positions at their desk without making a sound.
00:21:59
Jeff Rogers
And the maneuver took about 10 seconds. They were that good at it. But one kid even put his hand up and said, hey, Mr. Jones, I think we can do this quicker.
00:22:12
Jeff Rogers
So they're really, really into this, okay? It was strange how quickly the students took this uniform code of behavior, so Mr. Jones began to wonder how far he could be he could push this.
00:22:23
Jeff Rogers
Was this display of obedience a momentary game or were they all that they were all playing or was it something else? Was the desire for discipline and uniformity a natural need or was it something that we all desired?
00:22:37
Jeff Rogers
So in the last 25 minutes, Mr. Jones decided to push the tolerance of the class for regimented action. In the final 25 minutes of the class, Mr. Jones introduced some new rules.
00:22:49
Jeff Rogers
Students must be sitting in class and paying attention before the late bell. All students must carry pencils and papers for note taking. And when asking or answering questions, students must stand at the side of their desk The first word given in answering or asking a question is Mr. Jones.
00:23:07
Jeff Rogers
They practice short, silent reading sessions. Students who responded in a sluggish manner were reprimanded in every case made to repeat their behavior until it was a model of punctuality and respect.
00:23:19
Jeff Rogers
The intensity of the response became more and more than the content. To accentuate this, Mr. Jones requested answers to be given in three words or less. Students were rewarded in making an effort at answering or asking questions.
00:23:33
Jeff Rogers
Not just being there. Like, if you just ask a question, you're rewarded. if you answer a question, you're rewarded. So participation. Everybody's want to participate, right? Go above and beyond just...
00:23:46
Jeff Rogers
So they were also acknowledged for doing this in a crisp and attentive manner. So everyone in the class was popping up with answers and questions. The involvement level in the class moved from the few who always dominated the discussions to the entire class.
00:23:59
Jeff Rogers
What was even more bizarre was the improvement in the quality of the answers. Everybody seemed to be listening more intently. New people were speaking. Students who were usually hesitant to speak were confidently speaking and answering questions as they were finding new support from the classmates.
00:24:15
Jeff Rogers
Class dismissed. So at this point, Mr. Jones is so baffled. The students like it. They were participating more. They were asking better questions. They were more compassionate to each other. Sure, he was treating this like an authoritarian-leaning environment, but the kids were doing really well.
00:24:32
Jeff Rogers
Now he started to wonder just how far he could go with this. So on Tuesday, day two, Mr. Jones walked into the classroom to find something he had never seen before. All of the students were sitting at attention,
00:24:45
Jeff Rogers
the way he made them do the day before. The students are sitting there stone-faced and rigid. Everyone's sitting in silence at the attention position. Some of their faces were relaxed with smiles that came from pleasing the teacher.
00:24:58
Jeff Rogers
Most of the students look straight ahead in concentration. Neck muscles rigid, no sign of a smile or a thought or even a question. Every fiber strained to perform the deed.
00:25:10
Jeff Rogers
To release the tension, Mr. Jones walked up to the chalkboard where he had written the day before, strength through discipline in big letters, And he wrote underneath that on day two, strength through community.
00:25:24
Jeff Rogers
Okay. So community is, and he said to the class, community is that bond between individuals who work and struggle together. It's raising a barn with your neighbors. It's feeling that you are part of something beyond yourself, a movement, a team, la rasa, or cause. Okay.
00:25:43
Jeff Rogers
So Mr. Jones once again told the class that community like discipline must be experienced if it is to be understood. To provide an encounter with the community, he had the class struck ah recite in unison, strength through discipline, strength through community, over and over again while they were stomping their feet.
00:26:02
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones had two students stand and call back the motto. He added two more to that until finally the whole class was siing or standing and reciting this over and over.
00:26:14
Jeff Rogers
The students began to look at each other and sensed the power of belonging. Everybody was capable and everybody was equal. They were doing something together, strength through community.
00:26:27
Jeff Rogers
Before class ended, Mr. Jones had the idea to create a salute for the class. It was for class members only. And to make the salute, you brought your right hand up toward the right shoulder in a curled position.
00:26:42
Jeff Rogers
And Mr. Jones called this the third wave salute because the hand resembled a wave about to top over. And the idea came for the three, the idea of the third wave or the three came from the beach floor that waves travel in chains. And the third wave being the last is the largest in each series.
00:27:03
Jeff Rogers
So now that they had a salute, Mr. Jones made it a rule to salute all class members outside the classroom. When the bell sounded, ending the period, he asked the class for complete silence. With everyone sitting at attention, Mr. Jones slowly raised his arm with a cupped hand. Mr. Jones saluted his students.
00:27:21
Jeff Rogers
It was a silent signal of recognition. There was something special. Without command, the entire group of students returned the salute. So they're falling in line.
00:27:34
Jeff Rogers
And thriving. And thriving. Throughout the next food few days, students in the class would exchange this greeting. You'd be walking down the hall when all of a sudden three classmates would turn your way... each flashing a quick salute.
00:27:47
Jeff Rogers
In the library or in the gym, students would be seen giving this strain strange hand wave. You would hear a crash of cafeteria food only for it to be followed by two classmates saluting each other.
00:28:00
Jeff Rogers
The mystique of 30 individuals doing this strange gyration soon brought more attention to the class and its experiment into the German personality. Many students outside the class asked if they could join.
00:28:13
Jeff Rogers
So on Wednesday, Mr. Jones decided to give all the students in the classroom membership cards. He finds a pile of index cards and hands them out. And he said, these are the third wave membership cards.
00:28:24
Jeff Rogers
But as he's handing out the card he cards, he notices that the class is larger on the third day. There are 13 students who have cut their other classes to join his class.
00:28:35
Jeff Rogers
Cool. And before he passed out the index cards, he marked three of the cards with a red X and informed the recipients of those cards that they had a special assignment to report any students not complying to class rules.
00:28:50
Jeff Rogers
So Mr. Jones then proceeded to talk about the meaning of action. He explained how discipline and community were meaningless without action. He discussed the beauty in taking full responsibility for one's own actions, of believing so thoroughly in yourself and your community or your family that you would do anything to preserve, protect, and extend that being.
00:29:14
Jeff Rogers
He stressed how hard work and allegiance to each other would allow accelerated learning and accomplishment, He reminded students of what it felt like being in classes where there were competition, cause where competition caused pain and degradation, situations in which students were pitted against each other, and everything from gym to reading.
00:29:34
Jeff Rogers
The feeling of never acting, never being a part of something, and never supporting each other. At this point, the students just randomly stood up and they wanted to talk.
00:29:45
Jeff Rogers
One said, Mr. Jones, for the first time, I'm learning a lot of things. Another one said, Mr. Jones, why don't you teach like this all the time? so He was pushing information at them in an extremely controlled setting, but the fact that they found it comfortable and acceptable was kind of startling.
00:30:03
Jeff Rogers
It was equally disconcerting to realize that complex and time-consuming written homework assignments on German life were being completed and even enlarged on by students. Performing in academic skills skill areas was significantly improving.
00:30:18
Jeff Rogers
They were learning more, and they seemed to want more of what they were learning and understanding. Mr. Jones began to think that the students might do anything he decided or anything he assigned so he was going to find out.
00:30:32
Jeff Rogers
So Mr. Jones gave clear instructions. He wanted each of them to design a third wave banner. And every student in that classroom was now responsible for stopping any student who wasn't a member from coming into that classroom.
00:30:46
Jeff Rogers
So Mr. Jones asked them to remember and be able to recite by tomorrow morning the name and address of every third wave member. He said, you are assigned the problem of training and convincing at least 20 children in the adjacent classroom the correct sitting posture, and how it is necessary for better learning.
00:31:06
Jeff Rogers
Your job is to read the pamphlet and report its entire content to the class before the period ends. I want each of you to give me the name and address of one reliable friend that you think would want to join the third wave.
00:31:20
Jeff Rogers
The news spread all over school. Everyone was interested. Some were even kind of freaked out. But everyone knew something in the class was happening. The school cook asked what the third wave cookie looked like.
00:31:32
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones said, it's a chocolate chip cookie. Just random stuff there. The school principal came in and the afternoon faculty meeting and gave Mr. Jones the third wave salute.
00:31:44
Jeff Rogers
So now even the class principal is like, this is kind of cool that you're doing with them. By the end of the day, over 200 students were admitted to the third wave. And this is two?
00:31:56
Jeff Rogers
This is his third day. 200 students are now admitted to this third wave. You see where this is going, right? ah From the get-go. Mr. Jones was scared at this point.
00:32:08
Jeff Rogers
Though he formally appointed only three students to report any kind of like bad behavior, about 20 students came to him with reports about how Alan didn't salute or Georgene was talking critically about the experiment.
00:32:22
Jeff Rogers
This incidence of monitory monitoring meant that half of the class now considered it their duty to observe and report on members of their class. Within this avalanche of reporting, one legitimate conspiracy did seem underway.
00:32:37
Jeff Rogers
Three female students in the class had told their parents all about the classroom activities.
Resistance and Consequences
00:32:43
Jeff Rogers
These three young women were by far the most intelligent ones in the class. As friends, they hung out together. They possessed a solid confidence and took pleasure in a school setting that always gave them academic and leadership opportunity because they were the smart ones.
00:32:59
Jeff Rogers
During the days of the experiment, Mr. Jones was curious about how they would respond to the equalitarian and physical reshaping of the class. The rewards they were accustomed to winning just didn't exist in this experiment.
00:33:11
Jeff Rogers
The intellectual skills of questioning and reasoning were non-existent. In the martial atmosphere of the class, they were kind of stunned. They watched the activities and participated in mechanical fashion, whereas others jumped in, they held back watching.
00:33:29
Jeff Rogers
One of the students, her name was Sherry. Sherry was banned to the library because she did not belong in that. She was kicked out of the class because she was asking too many questions. who's and So she was sent to the library and this young lady started making posters.
00:33:47
Jeff Rogers
Like she called herself the, um, the breaker. She was part of a club. I'm kind of ad libbing on this, but she was part of the club. She created her own club called the breakers, like the wave breakers.
00:34:01
Jeff Rogers
And she would hang posters up every, like at 6am every morning for people to like know about what was happening in that classroom. But the people in the classroom would go there at 620 and take them all down. Oh, no
00:34:20
Jeff Rogers
Okay. Interesting. Horrifying. ah Yes and yes, but also human experience. Mm-hmm.
00:34:32
Jeff Rogers
One of the people involved in this human experience was the rabbi of one of the parents. He called Mr. Jones at home, and he was polite, yet a little bit condescending, and Mr. Jones told him they were merely studying German and the German personality.
00:34:48
Jeff Rogers
The rabbi seemed delighted and told Mr. Jones not to worry. The rabbi became a part of the experiment and remaining ignorant of the oppression in the experiment, he became an accomplice and an advocate.
00:35:00
Jeff Rogers
Oh. Many of the students were completely into being third wave members. They demanded strict obedience of the rules from the other students and bullied those that took the experiment lightly.
00:35:11
Jeff Rogers
Others simply sunk into the activity and took self-assigned roles. Then there were students like Robert. Robert, he was big for his age. He but he displayed very few academic skills.
00:35:24
Jeff Rogers
ah He tried harder than anyone that Mr. Jones knew to be successful. He handed in elaborate weekly reports copied word from word from the reference books in the library. Robert was like many kids in the school that didn't excel or cause trouble. He was just there.
00:35:41
Jeff Rogers
um They aren't bright. They can't make the athletic teams. They don't strike out for attention. They're kind of lost and they're invisible. But now. But now. The only reason that Mr. Jones even knew who Robert was is because Robert used to eat his lunch in his classroom. oh Alone.
00:35:57
Jeff Rogers
He always ate lunch alone. Well, the third wave gave Robert a place in school. At least he was equal to everyone now. He could do something. He could take part. He could be meaningful. And that's just what Robert did.
00:36:11
Jeff Rogers
Late Wednesday afternoon, Mr. Jones found Robert following him, and he asked Robert what in the world he was doing. And Robert smiled. He said, Mr. Jones said, I don't think I've ever seen you smile before.
00:36:24
Jeff Rogers
And Robert said, Mr. Jones, I'm going to be your bodyguard now. I'm afraid something bad is going to happen to you. And I'm going to protect you. Can I do it, Mr. Jones, please? Given that assurance and smile, Mr. Jones couldn't say no.
00:36:39
Jeff Rogers
And now Mr. Jones had a bodyguard. All day long, he opened and closed the doors for Mr. Jones. He walked, always on his right, just smiling and saluting other class members.
00:36:50
Jeff Rogers
He followed Mr. Jones everywhere. He even followed Mr. Jones into the faculty room, which was closed for students. He stood in silent attention while the teachers gulped down their coffee. When accosted by an English teacher for being a student in the teacher's room, he just smiled and informed the faculty member that he wasn't a student. He was Mr. Jones's bodyguard.
00:37:13
Jeff Rogers
On Thursday, day four, strength through pride. Mr. Jones decided that he needed to start winding down the experiment a little bit, bringing it to a conclusion.
00:37:25
Jeff Rogers
The third wave had become a center of their existence. Mr. Jones said he was now acting instinctively as a dictator. He was benevolent, and he daily argued to himself on the benefits of the learning experience.
00:37:41
Jeff Rogers
By this, the fourth day of the experiment, he was beginning to lose his own arguments to himself. He spent more time playing the role and he had less time to... to He couldn't remember the rationale behind doing this because he spent so much time playing the role.
00:37:58
Jeff Rogers
He found himself sliding into the role even when it wasn't necessary. He wondered if this didn't happen to a lot of people. We get or take an ascribed role and then bend our life to fit that image.
00:38:11
Jeff Rogers
Soon the image is the only identity people will accept, so we become the image. Once again, mr Jones faced the thought of closing the experiment or letting it go on its own course.
00:38:24
Jeff Rogers
Both options were kind of unworkable. If he stopped the experiments, a lot of students would be left hanging. They had committed themselves in front of their peers to this radical behavior. Emotionally and psychologically, they had now exposed themselves.
00:38:39
Jeff Rogers
If he suddenly jolted them back to a classroom reality, he would face a confused student body for the remainder of the year. It would be too painful and too demeaning for Robert and the students like him to be twisted back into a seat and told this was just a game.
00:38:56
Jeff Rogers
They would take ridicule from the brighter students that participated in measured and cautious ways. So he was kind of thinking about how to bring it back, right? Because he knew he had gone too far. Which is wild because it's only been four days.
00:39:08
Jeff Rogers
It's insane. I just keep saying that. It's so short. Well, it's, it's, and that I mean, that was my first thought when you started mentioning Robert is like, how do you break someone of that after the fact?
00:39:20
Jeff Rogers
Right. So the dangers of beginning this experiment, Now he's stuck in this place where... And this was all on a whim. He's creating this stuff day by day. This wasn't planned.
00:39:32
Jeff Rogers
This is just like on Monday he said, and let's see what I can do Monday. On Tuesday he woke up and said, let's see what I can do on Tuesday. But now he's got people that are fully committed. Fully committed. Danger.
00:39:43
Jeff Rogers
The other... Sorry.
00:39:47
Jeff Rogers
There's so much unease in me right now. The other option of just letting the experiment run its course was also out of the question. Things were already getting out of control. Wednesday evening, someone had broken into the room and ransacked the place.
00:40:01
Jeff Rogers
Later, Mr. Jones found out it was the father of one of the students. He was a retired Air Force colonel who had spent time in a German prisoner of war camp. Upon hearing of the third wave, he simply lost control. Late in the evening, he broke into the classroom and he tore it apart.
00:40:16
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones found him that morning, propped up against the classroom door. They talked about his friends that had been killed in Germany, and he was holding on to Mr. Jones as he was shaking. He pleaded that Mr. Jones would understand and help him get home.
00:40:29
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones called his wife and with the help of the neighbor walked him home. The third wave was disrupting normal learning. Students were cutting class to participate and the school counselors were beginning to question every student in the class.
00:40:42
Jeff Rogers
Faced with this experiment exploding in 100 different directions, Mr. Jones decided to try an odd basketball strategy. If you're playing against the odds, the best action to take is to try the unexpected.
00:40:56
Jeff Rogers
And that is what he did. By Thursday, the class had swollen in size to over 80 students. The only thing that allowed them all to fit in was the enforced discipline of the sitting in silence at attention.
00:41:07
Jeff Rogers
A strange calm is in effect when a room full of people sit in quiet observation and anticipation. It helped him approach them in a deliberate way. Mr. Jones talked about pride. He said, quote, Pride is more than banners and salutes.
00:41:21
Jeff Rogers
Pride is something no one can take from you. Pride is knowing that you are the best and it can't be destroyed. And in the midst of saying this, Mr. Jones abruptly changed and lowered his voice to announce the real reason for the third wave.
00:41:35
Jeff Rogers
He gave this explanation for the third wave. He said, quote, the third wave isn't just an experiment or classroom activity it's far more important than that the third wave is a nationwide program to find students who are willing to fight for political change in this country That's right.
00:41:52
Jeff Rogers
This activity we have been doing has all been practiced for the real thing. Across the country, teachers like myself have been recruiting and training a youth brigade capable of showing the nation a better society through discipline, community, pride, and action.
00:42:07
Jeff Rogers
If we can change the way that the school is run, we can change that the way that factories, stores, universities, and all other institutions are ran. You are a selected group of people, young people, chosen to help in this cause.
00:42:20
Jeff Rogers
If you will stand up and display what you have learned in the past four days, we can change the destiny of our nation. We can bring it to a new sense of order, community, pride, and action. A new purpose.
00:42:31
Jeff Rogers
Everything rests with you and your willingness to take a stand. Pushing it even further. To give validity to the seriousness of his words, he turned to three women in the classroom who had questioned the third wave.
00:42:44
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones demanded that they leave the room. He explained why he acted this way, or he explained why he acted and then assigned four guards to us escort the women to the library and restrain them from entering the classroom on Friday. o Then, in dramatic style, he informed the class of a special noon rally to take place on Friday.
00:43:02
Jeff Rogers
This would be a rally for the third wave members only. It was a wild gamble, but he just kept talking, afraid that if he stopped, someone would laugh or ask a question and the grand scheme would dissolve into chaos.
00:43:16
Jeff Rogers
He explained how at noon on Friday, a national candidate for president would announce the formation of a third wave youth program. Simultaneous to this announcement, over 1,000 youth groups from every other part of the country would stand up and display their support for such a movement.
00:43:34
Jeff Rogers
He said that they were the students selected to represent their area. He also questioned if they could make a good showing and because the press had the press had been invited to record this event.
00:43:46
Jeff Rogers
Nobody laughed. There was not a murmur of resistance. Quite the contrary. A fever pitch of excitement swelled across the classroom. We can do it.
00:43:57
Jeff Rogers
Should we all wear white shirts? Oh, no. Can we bring friends? Mr. Jones, have you seen this advertisement in Time magazine? The clincher came quiet by accident.
00:44:09
Jeff Rogers
It was a full-page color advertisement in the current issue of Time Magazine for lumber products. The advertiser identified his product as the third wave. Coincidence.
00:44:22
Jeff Rogers
The advertisement proclaimed in big red, white, and blue letters, the third wave is coming. Conspiracy theory. It's part of the campaign. Is this part of the campaign, Mr. Jones?
00:44:34
Jeff Rogers
Is it code or something? Yes, Mr. Jones said. Now listen carefully. It's all set for tomorrow. be in a small auditorium 10 minutes before noon. Be seated. Be ready to display discipline, community, and pride that you have learned.
00:44:47
Jeff Rogers
Don't talk to anybody about this. This rally is for members only. I'm not thrilled about this, Jeff. I need a sip of some water for this last couple of pages.
00:45:01
Jeff Rogers
Ready for it? I'm very... I'm intrigued. Not surprised. Intrigued. It's horrifying to me. But you're not surprised. No, not even a little that's thing. Well, what I am surprised about is how quickly.
00:45:15
Jeff Rogers
That is the surprising thing. This is less than a fucking quick week. How fucking quickly. But they're kids. Smart kids. Smart kids. Sherry, the smartest, was like, no. Yeah, but she, but, but, don't know.
00:45:30
Jeff Rogers
Keep going. Thank you. Sorry. so many thoughts in my head I know. On Friday, the final day of the exercise, Mr. Jones spent the early morning preparing the auditorium for the rally.
00:45:41
Jeff Rogers
At 1130, students began to enter the room. The first few scouting the way and then more. Row after row began to fill. There were 200 students in the auditorium.
00:45:54
Jeff Rogers
A hushed silence shrouded the room. Third wave banners hung like clouds over the assembly. At 12 o'clock sharp... Mr. Jones closed the room, placed guards at each door.
00:46:05
Jeff Rogers
Several of Mr. Jones' friends were posing as reporters or photographers, began to interact with the crowd, taking pictures, jotting frantic descriptive notes. A group photograph was taken. Over 200 students were crammed into the room. Not a vacant seat could be found.
00:46:22
Jeff Rogers
The group seemed to be composed of students from many persuasions. There were athletes, social kids, student leaders, loners, um the ones that always left school early, bikers, the pseudo-hip group, a few representatives from the literary department.
00:46:39
Jeff Rogers
The entire collection, however, looked like one force as they set in perfect attention, every person focusing on the TV. And Mr. Jones had the TV set up in the front of the room.
00:46:50
Jeff Rogers
No one moved. The room was empty of sound. It's like they were all there to witness a birth. The tension and anticipation was beyond belief. Mr. Jones said, quote,
00:47:04
Jeff Rogers
Before turning on the national press conference, which begins in five minutes, I want to demonstrate to the press the extent of our training.
The Reveal and Reflection
00:47:11
Jeff Rogers
With that, he gave a salute toward, ah followed automatically by 200 arms, stabbing in reply.
00:47:17
Jeff Rogers
He then said the words strength through discipline, followed by a repetitive chorus. The class did this again, and each time again, and each time their response was louder. The photographers were circling the ritual, snapping pictures, but by now they were ignored. He reiterated the importance of the event and asked once more for a show of allegiance.
00:47:39
Jeff Rogers
It was the last time he would ask anyone to recite. The room rocked with a guttural cry, strength through discipline. don't like this. At 12.05, Mr. Jones turned the lights off in the auditorium and he walked quickly to the television set in front of everybody.
00:47:57
Jeff Rogers
The air in the room seemed to be drying up. It felt hard to breathe and even harder to talk. It was as if the climax of shouting souls had pushed everything out of the room. He switched the television and the set on and he was now standing next to the television directly facing the room full of people.
00:48:14
Jeff Rogers
The machine came to life producing a luminous field of phosphorus light. You know, it's like the... yeah the white and black thing what's that called white noise white noise it's the white noise yeah white and black thing mr jones whispered
00:48:31
Jeff Rogers
It was the test screen. Yeah, I had that written down on the very next sentence. Mr. Jones but was at its side and Mr. Jones, Robert was at Mr. Jones side. Mr. Jones whispered to him to watch closely and pay attention to the next few minutes.
00:48:45
Jeff Rogers
The only light in the room was coming from the television as it faced all of the faces in the room. Eyes strained and pulled at the light, but the pattern didn't change. The room stayed deadly still, waiting.
00:48:57
Jeff Rogers
There was a mental tug of war between the people in the room and the television. The television won. The white glow of the test pattern didn't snap into a vision of a political candidate. It remained white.
00:49:09
Jeff Rogers
Still, the viewers persisted. There might be a program. There has to be a program. It must be coming on. Where is it? The trance with the television continued for what seemed like hours.
00:49:20
Jeff Rogers
It was now 12.07. Nothing. a blank filled of white. It was not going to happen. Anticipation turned to anxiety and then to frustration. Someone stood up and shouted, there isn't any leader, is there?
00:49:33
Jeff Rogers
Everyone turned around and shocked. First, the despondent student, and then back to the television. Their faces held looks of disbelief. In the confusion of the moment, Mr. Jones slowly moved toward the television. He turned it off.
00:49:48
Jeff Rogers
He felt the air rush back into the room. The room remained in fixed silence, but for the first time he could sense people breathing. Students were withdrawing their arms from behind the chairs.
00:49:58
Jeff Rogers
He expected a flood of questions, but instead got intense quietness. And Mr. Jones began to talk. Every word seemed to be taken in and absorbed by the students. He said, listen closely. i have something important to tell you.
00:50:13
Jeff Rogers
sit down. There is no leader. There's no such thing as a national youth movement called the third wave. You have been used. You have been manipulated, shoved by your own desires into the place you now find yourself.
00:50:26
Jeff Rogers
You are no better or worse than the German Nazis that we have been studying. You thought that you were the elected. You thought that you were better than those outside of this room.
00:50:37
Jeff Rogers
You bargained your freedom for the comfort of discipline and superiority. You chose to accept that group's will and the big lie over your own conviction. You think that you were just going along for the fine that you could extricate yourself at any moment.
00:50:51
Jeff Rogers
But where were you heading? How far would this have gone? Let me show you your future. With that, Mr. Jones switched on the rear screen projector. It quickly illuminated in a white drop cloth hanging behind the television.
00:51:04
Jeff Rogers
Large numbers appeared in the countdown. Do you want to know what was planned? Can you guess what was planned on the? Just tell me. The Nuremberg rally. His heart was pounding. It's ghostly images. The history of the Third Reich paraded into the room.
00:51:18
Jeff Rogers
The discipline. The march of the, quote, super race. The big lie. Arrogance. Violence. Terror. People but being pushed into vans. The visual stench of the death camps.
00:51:29
Jeff Rogers
Faces without eyes. The trials. The plea of ignorance. He was only... doing his job they would say i was only doing my job as abruptly as it started the film froze to a halt on a single written frame everyone must accept the blame no one can claim they didn't in some way take part The room stayed dark and this final footage of film flapped against the projector.
00:51:56
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones felt in his stomach. He felt sick in his stomach. And no one moved. It was as if everyone wanted to dissect the moment. Figure out what the hell had happened. Like awakening from a dream or a deep sleep, the entire room full of people took one last look back into their consciousness.
00:52:14
Jeff Rogers
The teacher waited for several minutes to let everybody catch up mentally. Because they were kind of still like... How did we just get mind-bought? What the hell just happened? Finally, the que questions began to emerge. All the questions probed at em like imaginary solutions that sought to discover the meaning of this event.
00:52:33
Jeff Rogers
In the still darkened room, he began the explanation. In objective terms, he began to describe the past week's events. He said, through this experience of the past week we've all tasted what it was like to live and acted in nazi germany we learned what it felt like to create a disciplined social environment to build a special society to pledge allegiance to that society to replace reason with rules yes we would have all made good germans we would put on the uniform turned our heads as friends and neighbors were cursed and then persecuted
00:53:07
Jeff Rogers
yes we know in a small way what it feels like to find a hero to grab a quick solution feel strong and in control of destiny we know the fear of being left out the pleasure of doing something right and being rewarded to be number one to be right taken to the extreme we have seen and perhaps felt what these actions will lead to we have each witnessed something over the past week We have seen that fascism is not just something those other people did.
00:53:37
Jeff Rogers
It's right here. It's in this room. It's our own personal habits, a way of life. Scratch the surface and it appears. Something in all of us. We carry it like a disease. A disease.
00:53:49
Jeff Rogers
This is the final lesson to be experienced. The last lesson is perhaps one of the greatest importance. The lesson was the question that started out our plunge into studying Nazi life. Do you remember the question?
00:54:03
Jeff Rogers
It concerned the bevolderment at the German people claiming ignorance and non-involvement in the Nazi movement. He said, if I remember the question, it went something like this. How could the German soldier, teacher, railroad conductor, nurse, tax collector, or average citizen claim at the end of the Third Reich that they knew nothing about what was going on?
00:54:23
Jeff Rogers
How can people be a part of something and then claim at the demise that they were not actually involved? What causes people to blank out on their own history? In the next few minutes and perhaps yours, you will have the opportunity to answer this question.
00:54:37
Jeff Rogers
If our enactment of the fascist mentality is complete, not one of you will ever admit to being in this final third wave rally. Like the Germans, you will have trouble admitting to yourself that you came this far.
00:54:49
Jeff Rogers
You will not allow your friends and parents to know that you are willing to give up individual freedom and power for the dictates of order and unseen leaders. You can't admit to being manipulated, being a follower, to accepting the third wave as a way of life.
00:55:04
Jeff Rogers
You won't admit to participating in this madness. You will keep this day and this rally a secret, and it's a secret that I will share with you forever. And that is the story of the third wave.
00:55:22
Jeff Rogers
A week. this This was turned into a movie that you can watch on Amazon. It's not a movie. It's a documentary. And um it's called The Lesson Plan.
00:55:35
Jeff Rogers
Mr. Jones is in it along with a bunch of the other former students like Sherry, the young lady that was kicked out and started the breaker thing. She doesn't know how important. Maybe she does know how important she was because somebody's got to do that.
00:55:51
Jeff Rogers
And this is mandatory reading and german are in Germany. It was at the time that this documentary was made. It was mandatory reading in Germany as well as other countries.
00:56:02
Jeff Rogers
ah Even some places in America, this was mandatory reading. Had you ever heard this? No.
00:56:12
Jeff Rogers
It... um
00:56:21
Jeff Rogers
That is violently powerful.
00:56:25
Jeff Rogers
Did you like it? i loved it. I hated it. i hated it every minute. But the thing is that like historically there are, I think there are a lot of things that I might be about to say that are maybe unacceptable.
00:56:51
Jeff Rogers
Historically, we as Americans like to look upon what happened there and then at those people and what they did or what they didn't do to stop such a thing.
00:57:11
Jeff Rogers
But that is such a powerful statement about all of the things that happened. many countries have done, are doing, will do.
00:57:24
Jeff Rogers
um You know, it's it's very easy as a white woman raised where I was to separate myself from a lot of the things that happened in our own country.
00:57:37
Jeff Rogers
um
00:57:40
Jeff Rogers
But the fact that a group of teenagers
00:57:46
Jeff Rogers
what was in no small way completely corrupted by a week-long experiment.
00:57:58
Jeff Rogers
And even Mr. Jones was corrupted himself. He was. here But that is, I mean, you you... But, and oddly enough, on some level, like, you can empathize with Robert.
00:58:09
Jeff Rogers
He was the one that was not academically... Blessed. But he was the one that benefited from the equality. Well, and that's and that's the the terrifying thing is that that that's all it takes is to give
00:58:28
Jeff Rogers
give a large enough mass of feeling of purpose and belonging. And if that group is large enough...
00:58:43
Jeff Rogers
then all it takes is ah a few words, a couple of days to really rally them behind this idea. Strength through community, strength through action, strength through pride and discipline and shit.
00:59:01
Jeff Rogers
But it's horrifyingly real. And it is horrifyingly...
00:59:10
Jeff Rogers
like that story... and You looked very uncomfortable as I was reading it. Because it's crazy because you can you can sit on the outside and knowing, studying what we grew up studying, not studying, but learning. And again, hearing about it from this many years later, like there was this part of me that was like, this is all bad. This is yeah not okay. me too But there was a small part of me that was like, if I was in a position. 100%. was in a position that I was
00:59:47
Jeff Rogers
any of those things, any of those things where I needed i needed a place to belong, I needed ah a sense of strength honor, I needed something to fight for, to be a part of, like,
01:00:01
Jeff Rogers
how much It doesn't take anything get someone to jump on board. doing this whim. Because someone asked a question. And he proved a horrible, heinous, disgusting, revolting, but true to the human condition point.
01:00:18
Jeff Rogers
Amen. But have you ever not thought, like, on some level we know how that happened but like really have you ever not thought how did that happen and this you think about it all the time about and again it's not just about that specific horror in history it's about all of the things that happen you you sit there and you think but why did we let it happen we the collective like
01:00:50
Jeff Rogers
Why did everyone sit back and just watch and go, well, this is okay. This is normal. This is going to make things better. this is This is going to make a better world. This is going to be a better place.
01:01:03
Jeff Rogers
I will be a part of something new and different. And it sounds like all of the things that he was saying on day one and all of the things that he was describing throughout that week, like,
01:01:21
Jeff Rogers
If you don't put it in the context of what it was, it's like, huh, that sounds all right. Everyone's equal.
01:01:32
Jeff Rogers
Everyone's a part of a thing. That sounds great. You know, maybe I should have told the story in a way where I didn't say the beginning question. And I just said, Mr. Jones was going to do an experiment. He wanted everybody to sit up straight, spine straight, knees at a 90 degree angle.
01:01:49
Jeff Rogers
And I wonder if that would have had an effect. I think it would have. Well, I think that there was a part of me that was itching or eerie or uncomfortable. Because as soon as you like did the thing and i I saw it in my mind.
01:02:04
Jeff Rogers
But, yeah, maybe if you hadn't given the context. Yeah. ah You know, I was really worried about that story being too long because that was a 19-page read, but I thought – Let me tell you, that was your best 19. That was your best – that was – fucking loved it.
01:02:24
Jeff Rogers
I hated it. Listen to the discussion that we're having about it. It's interesting. I hated every moment of it because there was that knowing part.
01:02:36
Jeff Rogers
Yeah. But then also understanding that they were completely oblivious to it for the reasons of it sounds great to have a unified relationship.
01:02:48
Jeff Rogers
All of those things that are pitched at the beginning of all of these horrific things that happen in history and will continue to happen, like all it takes is one fucked up person to be like, I'm gonna make this happen.
01:03:04
Jeff Rogers
I'm gonna do this thing. I'm gonna step out as the face of this thing where everyone feels like they are something. And they're putting their best foot forward into this movement.
01:03:18
Jeff Rogers
I think you would have been the Sherry. Yeah, well, fuck oh yeah. Fuck yeah. I would have been like, warning! All of the warning bells are going off. Mr. Jones, I love you. ron you're a cool dude, but this is not right. This is fucked up. This is not right. yeah I don't like it. The uniformity. Something is eerie, and that's what it is.
01:03:39
Jeff Rogers
There's something in the... It's like the fucking hairs on the back of your neck stand up, and I don't like it At least that's what we like to think, right? Yo, at least that's what we like to think.
01:03:51
Jeff Rogers
That's what blew my mind. That's what blew my mind. And several of the students that were still in there, they were smart also. They were. They were very like intelligent, intelligent people who... And that's the problem, is that we all think that we are above this. We're above being sucked into this vortex of fuckery and...
01:04:14
Jeff Rogers
Like I said, it just takes the right words, the right person, the right face, and not you can't resist it. Can we have that as a quote for the show? Vortex of fuckery.
01:04:28
Jeff Rogers
That's a good one. good. That's a good one. We're going to write that on the board. Vortex of fuckery. We cannot forget this. If somebody listens to this, remind us of vortex of fuckery. Sam is writing it down right now.
01:04:40
Jeff Rogers
Vortex of fuckery. I try not to say fuck so much.
Cultural References and Episode Conclusion
01:04:45
Jeff Rogers
I love fuck. I think it's a very versatile word. I think that you can use it in so many contexts. And if anyone out there in the world understands me as a person, they will understand that Boondock Saints one of my core movies.
01:04:59
Jeff Rogers
And I know that people have their own opinions about it, but they can all fuck right off because Boondock Saints, is hands down one of the greatest movies that ever existed. And in that, you will understand the importance of the word fuck.
01:05:14
Jeff Rogers
Fuckery. No, just fuck. Just fuck. Fuck. So believe it or not, Sam has a story as well. Oh, damn. Well, how the fuck am I supposed to follow that?
01:05:24
Jeff Rogers
do you want to Do you want to end this thing and do your story first next time? It's up to you. I think that was just such a powerful show. I don't i don't i don't mine is i don't want to do that. I don't want to follow that.
01:05:37
Jeff Rogers
That's like, oh, hey, Celine Dion just performed. like Did you want to pop on stage afterwards? You'll be great. Don't worry. gotten in a million years yeah like Adele's done, but like you can go on um You know what?
01:05:49
Jeff Rogers
I lost my voice. I can't. I'm dying. I'm dying here. God, that was great, Jeff. Oh, my God. So that... I can't even... That is from... um The source is Libcom.
01:06:00
Jeff Rogers
I will leave the source. I will leave all the shit in the show notes for you. I'll leave the Amazon Prime documentary. I'll leave the exact website where I got this from. ah just think it's important. and I think that that is such...
01:06:16
Jeff Rogers
ah powerful fucking story and I think that everyone who listens to us everyone that wants to share us with the world like take a moment and think about yourself take a moment and think about the world that we live in and the things that we are experiencing and pause
01:06:38
Jeff Rogers
just pause That's it. That's all I got to say about that. ah Just to completely change it up, there is somebody on Instagram that I want to do a shout out And his name is Bruce Brackett.
01:06:52
Jeff Rogers
And it's at BWB Positivity. And Bruce is this person that I follow on Instagram and I absolutely love him. He was sober for 10 years. He is so very forthcoming and honest about his...
01:07:10
Jeff Rogers
his struggle with addiction. And he just has the most beautiful Instagram page. It is just, here's a cup of love, drink up. It's all for you, Bruce.
01:07:25
Jeff Rogers
And recently he relapsed and he was very, just again, truthful and honest with that relationship. part of his life and the other day he was sitting before he was going to go into his outpatient rehab he was sitting there with his like drink or something from what looked like the starbucks and the sandwich and he was like i'm just i'm gonna do it it's gonna be good everybody has a relapse i'm gonna do it and i just find him so inspirational and if this ever finds its way to him i want him to know that
01:07:58
Jeff Rogers
Bruce, this is not the first time that Jeff has mentioned you. It was this past week. it's
01:08:05
Jeff Rogers
So to Bruce, thanks for being an inspiration. Thank you, Bruce. And to everybody that listened to this one hour and eight minute show today. Yeah, that was, it didn't take me 15 minutes to read that.
01:08:19
Jeff Rogers
That was cute when you said that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. But it was a great story. um
01:08:27
Jeff Rogers
o A fabula dignam vera. A story worth telling. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Cheers to all of you. Cheers, everybody.
01:08:38
Jeff Rogers
Bye.