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Zoë Presley
199 Plays5 years ago
For over a decade, Zoë Presley has guided individuals, couples and groups in cultivating wellbeing. Trained as a Depth Psychotherapist and Forest Therapy Guide, and in Transcendental Meditation, her approach inspires heart-centered healing, self-knowledge and connection to the natural world. She has served as a wilderness guide, eco-therapist, author, meditation teacher, and lecturer. In addition to her private psychotherapy practice, she offers guided Forest Therapy walks in the Portland area.
https://www.zoepresley.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Forest Bathing with Zoe Presley
00:00:00
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Ken Volante. Editor and producer Peter Bauer.
00:00:17
Speaker
This is Ken Volante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast, and I am very pleased to welcome Zoe Presley, who does a therapy practice connected to forest bathing, healing in the woods, and with therapy. Zoe Presley, thank you so much for coming onto the program. Thank you so much for having me, Ken. Absolutely.
00:00:47
Speaker
I had encountered the concept of Shinrin Yoku, known as forest bathing, a general practice of being in the forest and with some intention. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you encountered this practice?
00:01:10
Speaker
and how you've started to integrate it in your therapy and in your life. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, I started my career as a psychotherapist, learning a lot about the impact of burnout on health care professions. You know, it affects doctors, nurses, psychotherapists, essentially everyone who works in the health care sector.
00:01:40
Speaker
experiences burnout from time to time. And so I had this inner exploration of what would it look like for a health care provider to be receiving care as well as offering care at the same time. And that inquiry brought me to, well, how do I receive care? What is it? What is the experience for me personally feeling cared for, feeling healthy? And, you know, it was a pretty quick
00:02:08
Speaker
link to my experiences with the outdoors. I've always really loved spending time outside playing as a child, and then that interest developed into camping and hiking, backpacking, and water sports as I got older.
00:02:26
Speaker
The investigation of how I could bring together nature and healing brought me to a couple of books. I found Dr. King Lee's Forest Bathing and the Nature Fix by Florence Williams, which piqued my interest about how there was a bridge that was being created by different health care practitioners.
00:02:50
Speaker
love of the outdoors and that part of that bridge it refers to forest bathing and shinrin yoku and that led me to pursuing a training by the association for nature and forest therapy to be a forest bathing guide and so that was a few years ago and since then this idea of forest bathing has become a lot more pervasive there are forest bathing training programs
00:03:19
Speaker
and programs for the public literally all over the world, as well as lots of books and magazine articles, which I'm sure you've come across in your search.
What is Forest Bathing?
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I want to just pause there and just kind of bring this in, Zoe. So we're chatting about this forest bathing, and we're up in the Pacific Northwest, and it's certainly a kind of
00:03:48
Speaker
It might feel like a unique or a new idea to a lot of the listeners. What do you see is going on when you're engaging in forest bathing or going into the forest to heal? What's different about the forest than other places?
00:04:12
Speaker
Well, that's a good question because actually forest bathing doesn't just refer to an actual forest in the way that we think about it. You know, it doesn't refer to going to the mountains or going to a heavily treed area.
00:04:27
Speaker
Forest bathing would probably be more accurately described as nature bathing or nature immersion. It essentially refers to bathing in the atmosphere of nature or taking in nature through our senses. So it's really about being intimately aware of and connected to the natural world wherever you are. So that might even be walking down an urban street and noticing a weed coming out of the sidewalk.
00:04:57
Speaker
It could also refer to being in the Grand Canyon, a place where there's very little trees. So it doesn't necessarily need to be a forest, and it doesn't necessarily need to be a vast expanse of wilderness either. Forest bathing is really something that can occur just about anywhere.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah, and let's say you're doing, I appreciate that, those comments, because it has to do with more of a connection, I think, from, you know, of where you are.
Incorporating Nature into Therapy
00:05:31
Speaker
But if you're doing, so you're a therapist and you have training in this area, if you're doing, if you're actively engaged in this practice with clients, what does it look like? What does it look like for you to have a, you know, a session, say far as bathing session?
00:05:51
Speaker
Well, so I would like to differentiate
00:05:56
Speaker
There's different terminology that's used for different aspects of the practice of supporting someone and engaging with the natural world. So that can refer to the practice of forest therapy, which is something that's associated with a guide training program where you lead an individual or a group of people through a series of exercises that are intended to help somebody connect with the natural world.
00:06:26
Speaker
And that is different from what is sometimes called ecotherapy, which can be psychotherapy that is simply practiced outdoors. There are elements of forest therapy that can be combined into ecotherapy. So with my clients, it can look like a variety of different practices that all have different names. But sometimes it does look like
00:06:53
Speaker
having psychotherapy in a natural area, going on a walk or sitting in the forest, having a conversation about someone's life and the challenges that they're experiencing, while also supporting them to connect with their senses to their environment. That's an aspect of traditional psychotherapy that isn't necessarily part of a treatment.
00:07:20
Speaker
to inhale the aroma of the surroundings, to look for elements of inspiration in the surrounding environment. Those are the components of forest bathing that help to create a different kind of experience for someone, especially to help them get out of their thinking mind and into their physical experience, into their sensory experience.
00:07:48
Speaker
So yeah, those are just a couple of examples of how I might support someone through traditional psychotherapy that takes place in a natural environment, or how I might support them in sort of veering away from traditional psychotherapy practice into just an exploration of the senses.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. And we're speaking with Zoe Presley about forest bathing and healing.
00:08:23
Speaker
One of the interesting pieces that I just mentioned before we popped on and recorded is about the kind of dynamic ecosystem of the forest and learning about trees themselves, as far as that dynamic environment and the physiological components like you had alluded to, the smells that are exuded from the plants, the life and the vitality
00:08:53
Speaker
When, when you, when you, and I'm gonna say one more thing. I was fascinated by your point that you are engaged in the healing in the environment and then that, uh, uh, with another individual or, or individuals, your role within that. Do you have to carve out or help to create the healing space for, uh, everybody that is there?
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting question because I think that my role is really about helping someone transition from a more intellectual analytical space of their mind to a more experiential sensory experience. So what that looks like is offering an invitation
00:09:52
Speaker
You know, what happens if you close your eyes and just listen? You know, what sounds are available to you? What sounds that are close by versus far away? What happens when you just notice, when you just listen?
00:10:14
Speaker
And after that, the client or the individual who's with me really takes it from there and it becomes their own experience.
00:10:25
Speaker
The object is really to have it less shaped by human influence, including my own, and to have it more be about the individual's own engagement, own experience of reciprocity with the natural world. So my job, again, is really about creating an invitation and then stepping back. Yeah, I appreciate your
00:10:55
Speaker
uh your description uh of that um is is very helpful um this is a a podcast and we get into um philosophy and in in some some big questions and i wanted to to ask you a couple those um connections you work into yourself yeah uh one of the pieces um one of the questions i'd like to ask is
Identity and Connection with Nature
00:11:20
Speaker
As far as you yourself who or what made you who you are? That's a big question, you know, I could say Well, it was obviously my parents or my family or my friends The people I've learned from my teachers my life experience You know, but really I have no idea
00:11:45
Speaker
I believe that there is so much about life in existence that I will never know or understand. And I actually enjoy that aspect of being alive. The notion of understanding versus experience, experiencing, is an important aspect of forest bathing.
00:12:07
Speaker
which helps us separate from the incessant cognitive processing of our typical daily experience that wants us to make sense of life and understand things and really shift into the experiential realm where we simply observe and participate. That's where I connect with awe and inspiration, deep connection.
00:12:34
Speaker
what your question elicits in me is this sense of, I don't know who made me who I am in terms of who is Zoe, but I could tell you what is influencing me in this moment. I'm looking out the window and I see that the apple trees in my yard are in bloom.
00:13:03
Speaker
And when I see those blossoms, there's a feeling that arises in me and that's who I am. I am that feeling. Yeah. And about, about your answer too, I think, um, it points to like a large question like that because in, in philosophy, I think sometimes like you could engage in philosophy and questioning to try to gain an answer.
00:13:32
Speaker
Um, I actually don't, it sounds strange, but, but, but for me, I've been more influenced by the Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard, who said, my job as a philosopher is not to answer a question, but to find them everywhere. And it has to do with, and this is where the therapy comes in with the, with, with the philosophy or, or talking is that.
00:13:58
Speaker
It seems strange to engage my entire life with like a large question, like, is there a God? I'll never answer that. I don't, I don't, for me personally, for me, Ken Balante, I don't, I can't answer it. Don't know how to whatever, but I'm interested in the question and I'm interested in the process of thinking about it. Um, but if you're not comfortable with not having the proof at the end of it or not, you know, being secure where you are.
00:14:27
Speaker
It ain't gonna be a great process, right? And I really appreciate your elements where you're saying, you know, I don't know. Here's what I got, you know? So I think it's a good part of the therapy of the questions, at least for me.
00:14:45
Speaker
Well, especially in the culture that we live in, in which we can get attached to labels imposed on us and feel oppressed by those labels, oppressed by the label of mother or daughter, or what we do for our work is the totality of who we are. And I think that the problem with that is that
00:15:13
Speaker
we don't always feel a deep association with those roles, not every moment of every day of our lives. And so that can be, you know, existentially challenging sometimes if we are so used to thinking of ourselves as the roles that we play.
00:15:32
Speaker
rather than the experience that we are having. And sometimes that can lead to, frankly, mental health challenges. It can relate to depression, it can relate to anxiety and stress, sometimes even trauma. So I think there is a benefit of getting to understand ourselves through the experience that we're having in the moment as separate from just the roles that we play.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think that has to go deep into the, what you talk about identity, you know, in the moment and in our roles and how we, how we view our, how we view ourselves. Zoe, is there, is there, there doesn't have to be, but is there art in Shinrin Yoku? Oh, I absolutely think so. You know,
00:16:29
Speaker
Art can be interpreted in so many different ways, but I mentioned that
The Poetic Side of Nature
00:16:36
Speaker
forest therapy can involve invitations or suggestions for engagement with the natural world. So for example, one invitation is to find a natural object that symbolizes a phone, and then have a conversation into that phone about the experience that you're having.
00:16:55
Speaker
other invitations relate to creating designs with found natural objects or creating stories based on what is observed. A while ago, excuse me, I was inspired actually to write a poem in the woods one day while looking at a leaf and I was wondering if you would like to hear that. Absolutely. Okay, I just called it the leaf.
00:17:21
Speaker
It's not perfect, this decaying leaf caught in the fronds of a bracken fern. Sunspots and frayed edges tell this leaf's story, not the whole story, just maybe when the wind blew it loose from its host tree, now doubt a long distance from its present home inches above the forest floor.
00:17:48
Speaker
I am compelled by this leaf, how it rests unapologetically in the fern. I anthropomorphize its sense of pride and satisfaction. I've traveled so far. I consider my own life, my sunspots and frayed edges, the arms I rest in.
00:18:13
Speaker
I am also imperfect, but I am not like this leaf, content, I imagine, on the fern. No, I strive for something like perfection, despite all the indications that my striving is senseless. I am not yet like the leaf who accepts its place in consciousness, but I hope to be.
00:18:45
Speaker
Wow. Thank you, Zoe. Let me ask the question. Were you a creator when you were born?
00:18:57
Speaker
aren't we all, you know, endless artistry is involved in simply developing as a human being, you know, with our very first efforts in life, like breathing and moving our bodies. But, you know, as a child, I was compelled by music and theater and the opportunity to pretend I was involved in community theater as an adolescent and then I sang in rock and bluegrass and jazz bands as a young adult.
00:19:27
Speaker
So, you know, was I an artist when I was born? I really do believe that we all are artists, and we are all endowed with an inherent human creative ability. That is not just for the purpose of our own explorations, but I think is also part of our survival.
00:19:52
Speaker
we need to learn how to be creative, both psychologically and also physiologically. We are constantly finding solutions to problems, big and small, and there's so much artistry in that. In the past decade, I have explored creativity, mostly through the investigation and practice of healing modalities, as well as deepening my connection to the natural world through that poem.
00:20:22
Speaker
You know the natural world inspires me It makes me think deeply and it helps me grapple with big questions that I have about life and you know To me that's what artistry that is what creativity is all about As I've gone along in the in the podcast I've learned a lot that
00:20:49
Speaker
There are things that happen earlier on, you know, encouragement of the art, the environment of the arts, the environment that you're in. We see a lot of rested development creatively and artistically where, you know, for one reason or another, it's not possible to do it or life goes this way or that way.
00:21:12
Speaker
And one of the biggest things I see emerging is like, what do we do to cultivate that, you know, that spirit of creativity before, you know, for myself, I, like I mentioned to you a bit before we got on, I think, you know, I've been identifying myself as an artist, like deliberately for the last three years of my life, which is just a smidgen of the years that I've lived.
00:21:42
Speaker
connecting to that and refining that, that's where my energy is presently. And I think it was just kind of stuck for a while, maybe a very long time. And it sounds like you've felt comfortable enough to go into a few different, you know, creative endeavors in your development as a creator.
Creativity and Nature's Influence
00:22:06
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that aside from from myself interpreting it as feeling comfortable in those spaces I would also say that it's felt like a necessity to me that expressing myself and finding ways to explore my connections with other people with the natural world has felt like a lifeline
00:22:32
Speaker
You know, it's felt like in many ways the reason for being alive. So in that sense, I consider it in some ways a luxury, but also a necessity. Yeah, it's like breathing. It is like breathing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:01
Speaker
Zoe, big question without any trepidation. Why is there something rather than nothing?
00:23:09
Speaker
So this is a very interesting question.
Finding Meaning in Emptiness
00:23:12
Speaker
And I think my curiosity is, how do we know that nothing isn't something? When I think about spaces or moments that seem to be vacant with regard to what we might behold with our senses, there's always something. A black hole wouldn't even have that name if it were truly nothing.
00:23:39
Speaker
And similarly, if someone says there's nothing to do or there's nothing here, is that ever really true? So in my opinion, the purpose of being alive is to radically seek the something in every moment, especially when we're inclined to see nothing.
00:24:03
Speaker
And I think that that's part of how we can deepen our connection with the natural world is through really
00:24:16
Speaker
as I said radically seek what is happening here not just through my eyes but what's happening through my heart and my soul when I behold you know when I hold behold this aroma when I behold this sensation then what we might have initially assessed as nothing can turn into something pretty profound actually
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I just was following your words and it was very helpful for me. We've been talking with Zoe Presley and I just deeply enjoyed this conversation. Zoe, I want you to connect the listeners to, you know, your practice and what you have to offer, maybe just in general about the forest bathing and shinrin yoku.
Philosophical Reflections on Nature
00:25:19
Speaker
So there's another poem that I wanted to share. I would love for that to happen. This one's not by me. This one is by someone whose name I'm hopefully going to get close to. The name is Zimi Motokio, who was a 14th, 15th century philosopher, actor, and playwright.
00:25:42
Speaker
who incorporated numerous themes of Zen Buddhism into his works, and I thought your listeners might appreciate how this piece of writing, which had nothing specifically to do with forest bathing, really encapsulates so much of
00:26:01
Speaker
my understanding of and relationship with forest bathing and what I hope that people also might try on their own to seek the something when there is, you know, apparently nothing. So here's, here's the poem by Zimi Motokio. To watch the sun sink behind a flower-clad hill
00:26:28
Speaker
to wander on in a huge forest without the thought of return, to stand upon the shore and gaze after a boat that disappears behind distant islands, to contemplate the flight of wild geese seen and lost among the clouds,
00:26:56
Speaker
and subtle shadows of bamboo on bamboo. Absolutely lovely. Absolutely lovely. And that was the 14th or 15th century you mentioned? Zimi was alive in the 14th and 15th centuries. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Oh, thank you so much.
00:27:25
Speaker
Just incredible. Zoe, what was your website? My website is my name. So it's Zoe Pressley.com. That's Z-O-E-P-R-E-S-L-E-Y.com.
00:27:42
Speaker
Zoe, I want to thank you so much for appearing on the program. And honestly, in talking to you here, the somethings, the somethings that you've shown to us and given to us. And I want to thank you deeply for that.
00:28:01
Speaker
You're welcome. And if I could just offer your listeners one more thing, because I do think that, as you mentioned earlier on in our conversation, that healing spaces are so much about intention.
Intentional Healing with Nature
00:28:18
Speaker
and that considering that healing can be thought of as opening up the body, the mind, the heart, the spirit to engage and receive. In a practical sense, this can be so simple.
00:28:34
Speaker
It can look like taking a deep breath, reciting a mantra, stepping over a threshold, focusing our attention, or even just listening. And with that simple intention and simple action, anyone can consciously shift awareness.
00:28:56
Speaker
from the thoughts circulating in your mind to everything else that is available in the moment. What we see, smell, hear, touch, taste, feel. And in those spaces, we can become aware of healing that is always available, but that we're just not paying attention to.
00:29:18
Speaker
So there isn't any complex set of directions for this. It is accessible to anyone of any age, any ability to simply create an intention and open themselves up to what is happening in the moment.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, and that's, that's, that's powerful. And, you know, basic instructions. One of the things, as I'm recording here this weekend, for the first time in my life, I've laid out nine separate things for self care this
00:29:59
Speaker
for myself. I've never done that, but I've done that. And part of it is creating this podcast with you. And part of it is learning the deep learning that I've experienced from you. So it's a real thing and it's in process. So I wanted to thank you so much, Zoe, for your time and
00:30:24
Speaker
A little bit later this afternoon, there's a beautiful trail and I'm going off in the woods for about five to six months. No, good for you. Good for you. I hope that you are able to open yourself up completely to the experience. Maybe in new ways today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
00:30:55
Speaker
This is something rather than nothing.