Transcript
Speaker: Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Speaker: It introduces everyone, but in a really good, clever way.
Speaker: You know, you don't feel like you're being cajoled through this odd story.
Speaker: It's a very intelligent piece of television.
Speaker: The Watcher Slayer dynamic, that was just perfection.
Speaker: I just loved the development of the relationship between those two.
Speaker: Buffy being faced with this prophecy that she's going to die.
Speaker: gives up when she hears that, but then by sort of accepting it and allowing herself to fail, she is reborn.
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Speaker: We have a special standalone bonus episode for you now because we are in between seasons one and two.
Speaker: We finished watching season one and you've probably heard our season one roundup actually, which we did with Meredith, who is...
Speaker: an insanely talented artist and has done a lot of great artwork for the podcast.
Speaker: And in keeping with the kind of theme of fandom creativity, we thought we'd like to continue that and focus this episode on another creative topic, which is fan fiction.
Speaker: Yes, and just to forewarn everyone, there will be spoilers throughout this episode.
Speaker: So if you haven't seen the show in its entirety and you want to keep a few things as a surprise, you may want to just skip this episode.
Speaker: So we have a special guest to discuss and dissect the fan fiction of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and a little wider as well.
Speaker: And that special guest is writer Skyson.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Skyson.
Speaker: It's lovely to be chatting with you.
Speaker: It's lovely to be here.
Speaker: Thank you for having me.
Speaker: So Skyson, firstly, where are you?
Speaker: Obviously you don't have an Irish or English accent, which every one of our listeners will be hopefully used to by now.
Speaker: But where do you hail from Skyson?
Speaker: I hail from the East Coast of the United States.
Speaker: Lovely.
Speaker: What's the weather like at the minute?
Speaker: insane it was uh well I'm going to speak in Fahrenheit for one just to warn you okay I know what that means but it was 20 degrees below 20 degrees last week and yesterday it was 70 nice oh 70 Fahrenheit so yeah it's awful
Speaker: I'll take your word for it because I don't speak Fahrenheit.
Speaker: But because it is an English-Irish podcast, we have to talk about the weather because it's only polite.
Speaker: Yeah, that's how you start every conversation.
Speaker: Have you got a cup of tea, Skyson, or is it coffee?
Speaker: Neither, actually.
Speaker: It's water right now.
Speaker: I did have two cups of coffee earlier this morning.
Speaker: Gold blend?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I was going to ask that.
Speaker: No, actually, it was whatever they made it work.
Speaker: Unfortunately, I would rather have gold blend.
Speaker: Of course, I would rather have gold blend.
Speaker: We'd all rather have gold blend, wouldn't we?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Delivered by the gold blend guy.
Speaker: Or was it a taster's choice, some people?
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Taster's choice, yeah.
Speaker: Record time that we've brought it round to our favourite, Vision in Tweed.
Speaker: It doesn't take long, does it?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: First question, Skyson, is who is your favourite character and why is it Giles?
Speaker: Funny that you guess that my favourite character is, in fact, Giles.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: We don't invite people on who don't.
Speaker: Yes, it is Giles, actually.
Speaker: It always has been from the very beginning.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: And what's your favorite season?
Speaker: Oh, that's a difficult one.
Speaker: Season three.
Speaker: Season three.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I think that's prime Scooby season.
Speaker: The gang, the four.
Speaker: And then you have all the bit players still.
Speaker: You have Cordelia and Oz and Faith is there by that point eventually.
Speaker: And it's just fun.
Speaker: And it also includes my favorite season finale with Graduation.
Speaker: And the mayor is my favorite baddie.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Many favorites in season three.
Speaker: Oh, I can't not mention the suspenders.
Speaker: Oh, my word.
Speaker: The outfit of the librarian throughout almost all of season three.
Speaker: The three-piece suits, yes.
Speaker: The era.
Speaker: Very nice.
Speaker: It's a very nice season to look at.
Speaker: Very pleasant.
Speaker: Very aesthetically pleasing.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: Actually, I think I potentially judged the season by Giles' wardrobe.
Speaker: I'm not joking.
Speaker: I think I do.
Speaker: How and when did you get into Buffy?
Speaker: How did it all start for you?
Speaker: That's an interesting story.
Speaker: Did not actually, I wasn't into Buffy while it was airing.
Speaker: I was slightly too young, I think, because I was born in 93.
Speaker: So it was kind of, it was still on, but I was too young to really appreciate it.
Speaker: But that said, I mean, I was too busy watching like the Hannibal Lecter series and Silence of the Lambs and stuff.
Speaker: So it's like, would have been right up my alley if I had known it existed, but it was just kind of out of my purview.
Speaker: And then, um,
Speaker: Middle school, high school, like I knew it existed, but again, not really within my wheelhouse.
Speaker: I didn't watch a lot of television at that time.
Speaker: But a TV show called Bones was pretty famous, and I loved it because I wanted to be a forensic anthropologist.
Speaker: And David Boreanaz is a lead character in that show.
Speaker: So I found myself watching reruns of Angel at 3, 4 in the morning before school.
Speaker: to catch David Boreanaz in some other show, I had zero clue what was going on.
Speaker: I was completely lost.
Speaker: I didn't know the context of Angel whatsoever.
Speaker: I just had this massive crush on him at that point in time.
Speaker: But it was actually, it was his character on Bone specifically, more than David, I think.
Speaker: But
Speaker: I would have thought that would have gotten me into Buffy.
Speaker: It didn't really.
Speaker: And I didn't get into it until college, I think.
Speaker: I mean, every one of my friends has watched it at some point because they all grew up with it, and somehow it just missed me.
Speaker: And so they're talking about it all the time, trying to get me to watch it.
Speaker: Let me say, not a single one ever mentioned Anthony Stewart Head was in it.
Speaker: Because I tell you, like if they had mentioned that, and when I found out, when I realized that, you know, he's in it, he's like a lead character in it.
Speaker: I got mad at some of them.
Speaker: I texted them.
Speaker: I was like, why did you not tell me he was in this?
Speaker: I would have watched this years ago.
Speaker: Because I've always, I knew about him from theater, theater stuff that he's done.
Speaker: So I was a fan of his before I watched Buffy.
Speaker: And because of that, I started watching Buffy, like really watching it.
Speaker: And it really hit ahead during quarantine during 2020, because I work in the entertainment business and everything, of course, closed down.
Speaker: I had nothing to do.
Speaker: No work, no nothing.
Speaker: And I was like, well, I'll start Buffy from episode one.
Speaker: I'll binge it.
Speaker: I'll watch every single episode, really dig into it.
Speaker: And that was all it took.
Speaker: It just completely took over my life since then.
Speaker: Quarantine was great for that, actually.
Speaker: Quarantine was fantastic.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was like, it was on the outskirts of my life for most of my life.
Speaker: And I didn't really dig deep into it until just a few years ago, really, which is kind of weird for me to think, but because it feels like it's always been there.
Speaker: It's interesting, actually, because I, I mean, I've said when we started the podcast that I was quite young as well.
Speaker: And it was sort of Buffy was on in the background when I'd be at my friend's house and stuff.
Speaker: But I actually...
Speaker: knew Anthony Head from Rocky Horror before I really kind of caught on to the fact that he was Giles.
Speaker: So yeah, I just, it's interesting.
Speaker: That's fantastic.
Speaker: You know, he was my first Frank-In-Furter.
Speaker: It was Tony Head.
Speaker: Most of my friends, it was Tim Curry, but it was Tony Head was my first Frank-In-Furter.
Speaker: So, you know.
Speaker: I get you there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I used to watch the, you know, the tribute shows that he appeared in on YouTube just obsessively.
Speaker: So, yeah, just a side note.
Speaker: I have a confession to make.
Speaker: I've never seen Rocky Horror in any form.
Speaker: At all?
Speaker: Oh, not even the movie.
Speaker: Not even the movie.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: It was in consequence of Buffy, knowing Anthony Stewart had, you know, every time that they mentioned him as Giles, also known as Frank-N-Furter in Rocky Horror.
Speaker: And I was like, what's that?
Speaker: What's a Frank-N-Furter?
Speaker: Then you put on a bun, you know, to catch up.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, does it come with onions?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you add mustard to that?
Speaker: I mean, use a bit of mustard.
Speaker: You mentioned that, you know, you came into Buffy quite, I say late, you're a late bloomer of Buffy, but you're not, you've been writing, you know,
Speaker: fanfic for much, much longer?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I would say the Marvel fandom was probably my other bigger fandom that I was a part of, even though I was in a small corner of it.
Speaker: That was the serious fandom I was in.
Speaker: But my first fanfiction was actually...
Speaker: Harry Potter.
Speaker: I've written for Harry Potter.
Speaker: I've written for CSI.
Speaker: I've written for Longmire, The Blacklist, a little bit of Lie to Me, but my two biggest ones have been Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Speaker: and now Buffy.
Speaker: The minute I could kind of form sentences, I would just be writing little, like, they were basically little mysteries.
Speaker: It was like a kid and his dog just exploring around.
Speaker: So I've been writing that since...
Speaker: I don't know, I was probably five or six.
Speaker: It was high school, I believe.
Speaker: So early teens, mid to late teens was when I was posting fan fiction specifically.
Speaker: That's really interesting, actually, because I've been looking at a few stats and studies.
Speaker: And this is one from 2020.
Speaker: It's amazingly over 56% of writers are sort of mid to early 20s.
Speaker: So to say, oh, I was quite young,
Speaker: When I started, I think it's actually more common than people maybe think.
Speaker: I couldn't find anything to see the average age of a reader.
Speaker: because it's very difficult to pin down.
Speaker: But I think, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, I think there's a lot of writers who are also readers of fanfic.
Speaker: And because it is, of course, it's quite niche, isn't it?
Speaker: Because if you don't necessarily know, well, it doesn't cater for readers who aren't familiar with the original fanfic.
Speaker: whatever fandom it is they're not you know sort of familiar with the original fiction as it were so it could be you know of course there's buffy you've mentioned other fandoms as well that you wrote for if you're not really familiar with that it's not going to make any or too much sense is it because of course it takes the idea of
Speaker: the original canon characters and then placing them in an alternate universe.
Speaker: It could be.
Speaker: It amazed me how organised fan fiction is.
Speaker: It's its own subject but it's its own study I suppose.
Speaker: There's actually some university courses, I don't know about in the UK, but universities in America will teach classes on like fandom and fan fiction.
Speaker: And well, there's some that teach specifically on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Speaker: Unfortunately, I did not go to a school that offered that class.
Speaker: Yeah, so in our intro episode, we brought this up very briefly and it was actually off the back of that that we decided we really wanted to delve a little deeper into fan fiction.
Speaker: But amazingly, Buffy is the most academically written about television show ever.
Speaker: So it makes sense that there would be the unofficial fan fiction being amateur writing.
Speaker: It makes sense that there would be a huge following.
Speaker: on the unofficial side as well.
Speaker: So in terms of fan fiction itself, you know, how you got into it, of course, you know, you, as you said, 15, 16.
Speaker: I know, Sarah, you put a really good question down for, you actually said about building your confidence up as a writer and,
Speaker: Yeah, I guess as somebody who has, even though I love to write, as someone who's never actually been involved in writing fan fiction, probably mainly for confidence issues, what's it like in terms of putting your work out there?
Speaker: Like, is it scary?
Speaker: Is it intimidating?
Speaker: Especially when you're approaching a new fandom, I suppose, you know, when...
Speaker: Obviously, you'd written fan fiction before, but when you did your first piece of Buffy fanfic, and then you're reaching a whole new audience, presumably.
Speaker: So is that scary?
Speaker: So Buffy specifically, it was a little bit scary.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I will go back and say, I think when I first started posting like my first two Harry Potter fics, I didn't really know any better.
Speaker: It was just this, and I don't think I quite comprehended how large of a world fan fiction is.
Speaker: So I found this website and you could post your works and, you know, create accounts and all that stuff.
Speaker: I was like, oh, cool.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: People are sharing these little stories they've come up with.
Speaker: I'll share mine.
Speaker: Like it didn't really hit me what I was doing.
Speaker: It was just sort of this community thing.
Speaker: And at least on that particular website, it wasn't quite as interactive as the newer, I would say, more common website is.
Speaker: It's much more interactive with people.
Speaker: That one, I could pretty much post it and forget about it almost.
Speaker: So I didn't really have issues with confidence or anything until I wrote for Buffy because in the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Speaker: fandom, so that was my kind of bigger fandom I was in before Buffy.
Speaker: And I was in a little group, a little community where
Speaker: where we were all really, we were just writing for each other.
Speaker: It was, you know, we were writing what we wanted to write or what our friends wanted to read or like our friends gave us an inspiration and they were like, I don't really want to write this to you.
Speaker: And it was just for ourselves.
Speaker: And so there was no pressure whatsoever.
Speaker: And they were also really kind and encouraging and just...
Speaker: like definitely upped my own confidence in that regard, I guess, without me really consciously thinking about it.
Speaker: And their criticism was constructive and helpful if there was any, you know, they were like, hey, this is, you know, this characterization doesn't really make sense or something like that.
Speaker: And I have experienced that with the Buffy fandom as well.
Speaker: When I first started watching the show,
Speaker: I, of course, immediately started reading because I've been an avid reader of even shows I'll randomly watch.
Speaker: Like I'll start reading fan fiction from some random ship that hits me.
Speaker: I'll see if it exists and I'll read a few.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh, cool.
Speaker: And then I'll go back to Buffy.
Speaker: But with Buffy, it was like I was reading so much of it and slowly going through the season and just absolutely falling in love with it.
Speaker: and I wanted to read more.
Speaker: And I just started feeling like I was like, I want to write stuff.
Speaker: And my very first Buffy write was actually inspired by, which part of me cringes to say, but it was inspired by a dream that I had had.
Speaker: It ended up being a crossover, which I guess in hindsight, it does make sense.
Speaker: It was a crossover with the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Speaker: slash Avengers, like the Marvel Universe and Buffy, because those two things were in my brain.
Speaker: It was just this like
Speaker: crazy crossover that I somehow made work because I really wanted to write the Scoobies.
Speaker: I really wanted to write Giles.
Speaker: I really wanted to write Buffy.
Speaker: And I actually sat on that for, I think, a few months before I posted it because Buffy is such a large fandom.
Speaker: The fandom as a whole is huge.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think I knew a Buffy fandom existed before I knew what fandom was.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I'm the same.
Speaker: The same opinion.
Speaker: There's actually over 40,600 works for Buffy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: On just one of the fan fiction sites.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which I think is the most popular one, which is Archive of Our Own.
Speaker: I think it is these days.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, you know, of course, that doesn't include all of the smaller sites and, you know, the unpublished fics as well.
Speaker: And you found, because the fandom was so big, was it more daunting or...?
Speaker: It was.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've never felt that before with any other.
Speaker: Usually I write what I want.
Speaker: Like I'm writing something for myself and I share it just because I think, well, maybe there's one other person out there who will find this interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And for this one, I was like, I was really nervous about posting for it.
Speaker: So I did.
Speaker: And I was looking back on my author notes on that one and I cringed a little bit because I'm like so apologetic and like, you know, like, I'm sorry.
Speaker: Like this is my first Buffy thing.
Speaker: I was worried about characterization because I wasn't, I don't think I was really far into the series yet during my like first full binge.
Speaker: Oh, so you hadn't actually seen the entire show?
Speaker: I hadn't seen the whole thing.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I was like 80.
Speaker: Through season one, season two perhaps.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Like very early.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Very early, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And like my first comment, they were all extremely supportive.
Speaker: Like everybody was so happy to see it and just, and I think this was right before quarantine started.
Speaker: And I know it's 2020, like there was like this big resurgence in the Buffy.
Speaker: Not that the Buffy fandom had ever gone by it.
Speaker: But I feel like in 2020, it blew up again.
Speaker: And this was right before that.
Speaker: So I think it was the sense of like, oh, there's new content here.
Speaker: Somebody's writing something new.
Speaker: This is awesome.
Speaker: And despite it being a little, I don't want to say immature, but it's just like my writing, I think my writing, yeah, I guess my writing has matured since then.
Speaker: So it's, it's just, it's the flow of it isn't, I'm not as happy with.
Speaker: And I mean, we can all judge our own works harshly anyway, but all these people commenting on it were just immediately like, you did the characterization so well.
Speaker: Like it's, this is like, I can hear their words being spoken off the page.
Speaker: And that's like the
Speaker: biggest compliment I could ever receive as a writer is that, you know, I could see this happening or I could hear this.
Speaker: Like they would totally say that something like that is amazing.
Speaker: So, um, having, having read your, your fic, I commented on your fic before we knew each other.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: You did.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, uh, and actually one of the things I remember thinking was gosh, very, very,
Speaker: tuned into the characters and how they, each character has a different pattern and a cadence and, you know, there's certain words that they just wouldn't use and, or certain words that they would most definitely use and, and it really, you know, sort of came across, you know,
Speaker: on all of your fig, but you know, there's 40,000 plus other works as well.
Speaker: And, um, yeah, I've read some fan fiction where it's like, it sticks with me as much as a Stephen King quote might stick with you or, um,
Speaker: a poem that you've loved.
Speaker: There are some fan fiction stories that I've read that still stick with me.
Speaker: They're just so good.
Speaker: And some people just drop this incredibly deep, meaningful line.
Speaker: And when I see stuff like that happening from people who are just doing this for fun, it's not for profit.
Speaker: It's the only art form in the fandom world that is not for profit.
Speaker: is writing fan fiction.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And so it's people just doing this because it's their hobby, because they get joy out of it, because they're so pissed off at what happened, they need to fix it.
Speaker: Yes, I've heard of this.
Speaker: There's a correct, what is it?
Speaker: So a fix-it fic.
Speaker: I love that term.
Speaker: Where someone's gone, no, it shouldn't have happened like that.
Speaker: It's going to happen like this.
Speaker: All of us.
Speaker: Season seven?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yeah, it's a lot of season seven rewrites.
Speaker: And eight.
Speaker: And I mean, there's of course, there's post-season as well, which...
Speaker: I remember when we first started chatting, I was like, well, I'm not overly bothered by, you know, I was more interested in, you know, how can someone rework your
Speaker: an episode that I know really, really well.
Speaker: And how can they trick me or convince me that it should go in this direction instead?
Speaker: And I would just only read that.
Speaker: You wouldn't have read completely alternate universe at that point?
Speaker: Well, I mean, there's AU, isn't there?
Speaker: There's alternate universe, which is essentially something that happens normally after the season or...
Speaker: before season or you know it goes off in a completely different direction personally I think it's all AU
Speaker: so I've always struggled with with with that sort of term if I'm honest but I think it is all AU but but yes I've always I love it when you know you say oh it's between this episode and that episode or and it's actually very I think that's a very Buffy verse thing to do you know because you say fan fiction isn't
Speaker: It's all non-for-profit, etc.
Speaker: But on the occasion where there is official fiction written and approved by the creators of Buffy, they did do this a lot and they did this a lot during the time.
Speaker: Yeah, there's a lot of books that are, you know, unofficial Buffy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And very often, you know, on the back cover of that or, you know, if you read a little more into it, it will say, oh, it's between this and this season or this and this episode.
Speaker: Or it becomes evident, you know, when you're reading it, you think, ah, OK, so it's season three and this has happened or that's happened.
Speaker: I grew up with that.
Speaker: I read all the Buffyverse books along with the TV show.
Speaker: So for me, I was delighted when I heard that there was this hope of 40,000 fan fictions.
Speaker: And I thought, brilliant, it's lockdown.
Speaker: got nothing else to do.
Speaker: But yeah, those early official fiction, Buffyverse fiction books, I think is sort of, I say glorified, but it's the official fan fiction.
Speaker: I mean, it is pretty much, they see canon and they either want to come up with a past story
Speaker: of what happened before this.
Speaker: Like what events inspired what happened in canon?
Speaker: Let's write this.
Speaker: And I mean, fan fiction writers do that all the time.
Speaker: If people come up with something like between seasons and they're like, what might've happened after becoming part two?
Speaker: What was that time period like?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: they would write it.
Speaker: I was one of those individuals that was re-watching the show.
Speaker: I was rediscovering it.
Speaker: And I thought, gosh, I've forgotten how much I knew this show and loved this show.
Speaker: And it was such a lovely thing to be reintroduced to.
Speaker: But it's expanded since, you know, because I just wasn't aware of it.
Speaker: fan fiction I wasn't on the chat rooms that sort of thing so it sort of widened my world and you know I've met some lovely people off the back of it so so I can really see what you mean by you know when you're a little nervous about going into such a big fandom and then it turns out everyone's
Speaker: By and large is really lovely.
Speaker: You know, every fandom has their kind of drama and some issues, but for the most part, like the Buffy fandom as a whole, and especially the community I'm a part of, has been like the most amazing one out of all the ones I've dabbled in.
Speaker: And like previous ones that I've mentioned, like S.H.I.E.L.D.
Speaker: and The Blacklist, like they've had lovely people as well.
Speaker: But this one as a whole and for the
Speaker: The past four years now, like consistently has been, I've made dear friendships.
Speaker: I've met some of these friends in person and it's just, it's kind of unbelievable the things that have transpired because I decided to take the leap and post a story in this group that I was nervous about.
Speaker: And it ended up being, being definitely well worth it.
Speaker: Definitely well worth it.
Speaker: Like beyond those words, even.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was, and they continue to be supportive even now, like as my writing has, as it does, it's changed slightly.
Speaker: I think my, my voice as an author has changed slightly.
Speaker: I'd like to think that it's grown.
Speaker: It's become better.
Speaker: But these, these people that I've met, some of them were some of my first commenters on that first fic, and they're still reading my stuff and commenting now and, you
Speaker: giving me support and giving me advice when I need it and helping me with like, you know, when I'm stuck on a plot line or especially my British friends, if I'm trying to keep, you know, well, I always, I try to keep Giles as British as possible.
Speaker: So every now, I've gotten much better about it, but every now and then I would have a question like, would Giles say this?
Speaker: Would Giles do this?
Speaker: And sometimes it's a no.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, dear.
Speaker: No, he'd say that.
Speaker: Yeah, just the importance of getting it right.
Speaker: It's just amazing to me how just the level of research that goes into it.
Speaker: I mean, it must...
Speaker: It must take hours, literally even just hours of re-watching episodes and presumably noticing new details that you maybe didn't pick up on before.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: I can speak to that, especially with my current.
Speaker: I have one that I'm working on right now that it's, I don't know how many chapters now.
Speaker: It's many chapters, like over 40 chapters long.
Speaker: And it is almost specifically episodic.
Speaker: It's following from the end of season three, beginning of season four,
Speaker: I believe.
Speaker: And it's almost episode to episode, a rewrite of how would things be different because one little thing changed at the beginning of season four.
Speaker: How does that change the rest of the series?
Speaker: And that's my exploration.
Speaker: And because I've decided to do that, I've done a lot more research into this one than I've ever done before.
Speaker: So like how Sophie mentioned with, you know, being as close to canon as possible and loving those characters
Speaker: those stories that fit, twist, I guess, canon into the fiction and make it all seem kind of cohesive.
Speaker: I did a lot of re-re-re-watching and I would pull an episode up.
Speaker: on like one computer screen and just have it playing with captions on and then I would have my story on my laptop and I have a notebook of just notes full of notes for this and I would take lines and things and most often facial expressions like I would watch and that's kind of my background in that industry is just understanding acting choices and
Speaker: maybe not even understanding their choice, but seeing the choice and trying to dissect it and take what their expression is saying, where they might be vocalizing one thing, but their face is saying something else.
Speaker: And I tried to pull a lot of that into the story as well.
Speaker: So I did put hours of research into this one.
Speaker: But that said, I have other ones where I have heard a song on the radio and it gave me a scene in my head, like a scene just started playing and I wrote it and that was it.
Speaker: Like there was no research whatsoever with that.
Speaker: So it kind of depends.
Speaker: Almost a song fic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Those tend to be, those tend to have songs in them, like characters are singing or it's sort of incorporated within the
Speaker: In my personal experience of reading, that's kind of song thick.
Speaker: There's drabbles as well, which are 100 words or less?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: There's a specific list of which I will get wrong, and some people are very strict about their list where a drabble is exactly 100 words.
Speaker: A double drabble is exactly 200 words.
Speaker: You don't stray from that.
Speaker: Other people like myself, I kind of play loosey-goosey with that idea.
Speaker: But yeah, drabbles are fascinating.
Speaker: You're trying to take a whole plot and...
Speaker: just parse it down to only 100 words, but try to get the entire point across that you want to share.
Speaker: And I only started dabbling in Drabbles like last year, two years ago.
Speaker: I did a series, I think two years ago, and then I did a series this year on Drabbles.
Speaker: And I will say those are rated E, so read those.
Speaker: As in explicit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, explicit.
Speaker: Read those at your own risk, if you dare.
Speaker: But it was a fascinating challenge for me, who, as a writer, I can be very, very, very wordy.
Speaker: As you know, Sophie, I know you've read them.
Speaker: I'm still reading.
Speaker: What is your largest, longest fic?
Speaker: My longest one is definitely my current active work in progress.
Speaker: And it is at, oh, what is it at now?
Speaker: It's probably over 500,000 words, I think.
Speaker: 500,000.
Speaker: 500,000 words.
Speaker: That's got to be close to Tolkien.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But incomparable.
Speaker: I mean, Tolkien is, you know, I shouldn't even be on the same list with Ward-Cowell.
Speaker: I'll take that comparison with Ward-Cowell.
Speaker: I do have to say that that one, because it is incorporating canon, there are like whole lines where I've taken a line straight from the script.
Speaker: So I can't take personal ownership of every single one of those 500,000 words.
Speaker: But it's funny because when I think about that, I astound myself.
Speaker: I'm like, I can't really believe I wrote that much because...
Speaker: it doesn't feel like it.
Speaker: I've been working on that one for years actually now.
Speaker: And it's just every day I just dabble a little on it and things come to me as they do and I write them down and it just is what it is.
Speaker: And people will tell me later, like, how do you write this much?
Speaker: And I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker: I probably shouldn't like, you know, it's, I need to parse things down, make it easier to read for people.
Speaker: And
Speaker: Being too wordy could be a problem, but I just love writing for Buffy so much.
Speaker: There's so much joy that comes out of it for me.
Speaker: I could care less if one person reads my stories.
Speaker: I get so much personal joy out of writing it, and I just share it just because there might be another person who does too.
Speaker: And I think that's actually why the community is so close-knit, because it is done with the idea that one other person may benefit or may enjoy it.
Speaker: But the reality is that one other person, you double that and then you travel it.
Speaker: And I think it's very close-knit because of that.
Speaker: Because there's a lot of humility, I think.
Speaker: It comes across that there's so many writers that will post up and say, oh, as you said, you can put your author's notes down and say, I'll be apologetic.
Speaker: I'm really sorry, guys, it's taken me this long.
Speaker: to finish or I'm still working on this and you see people sort of saying it's fantastic you take as long as you need it's amazing this is great I really love this bit I love this aspect and it's you know to have those the comments and the interaction with your readers and of course there's kudos as well that can be given but you know that by and large most people
Speaker: probably don't comment they don't click or press send with their thoughts but you know that they've also enjoyed it you know in their own way um so and it's so far reaching isn't it it's just it's astounding it really does the numbers astound me and the locations it's you know i mean i've friends now from like solely through fan fiction i have friends from
Speaker: France and Germany and Norway and the Philippines and China and, you know, all over the States and of course, Great Britain and they're just all over the place and everybody's all just so excited about the same thing.
Speaker: Yeah, it's great.
Speaker: It's like, it's a big sort of
Speaker: boiling pot of discussion and carrying that forward and and I know some fandoms well some tv and films they've been very obstructive that you know they don't necessarily want and they don't encourage fandoms at all but the impression I get with um even from the early days of the chat rooms and
Speaker: Buffy and the production and the creators, they've always been very supportive of it.
Speaker: They've always been very aware of it and encouraging of it.
Speaker: you know all the various other ways you know that fandom can express itself is you know we've already spoken to to meredith with the fan art you know of course there's cosplay there's fan videos there's there's so so much that you know ways of expression that fans can sort of share but the cast are still almost active very active with that you know and at the time
Speaker: the creators were as well and and it just doesn't seem to have been held back in any way which i think is is really lovely and of course you know there was a lot of influence uh in later seasons yeah that came from um from fandom from fandom you know in the various forms of that so which of course is that you know the buffy spike relationship so
Speaker: So looking at the ships, the most written ships within the Buffy fandom, the Spike Buffy ship is the most popular written within the archive of our own site with over 6,500 people.
Speaker: It's mentioned, you know, that it's mentioned, but the top three ships include Buffy.
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: Of course, yeah.
Speaker: Which, you know, being Buffy the Vampire Slate, it sort of makes sense, but I don't know if that's different in other fandoms.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Where it might be the case that these fix-it-fix, you might think, well, no, this should be the main character.
Speaker: And it might be that main character wins all the stats.
Speaker: But, yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker: I mean, this is just literally purely where they're mentioned.
Speaker: It might not be the main subject of a fic, of course, because, like, with your huge monster of a fic,
Speaker: It may be the case that it's incorporating various relationships or various characters coming and going from one season to the next, etc.
Speaker: So how that's broken down, I'm not sure.
Speaker: But yeah, so the Spike Buffy is, which of course is canon, really.
Speaker: So it does surprise me.
Speaker: You know, bearing in mind fan fiction is meant to be this, you know, this weird, wonderful, oh, this, you know, this and this.
Speaker: And this was the reputation that I thought...
Speaker: Yeah, that it was all stuff that's completely outside of, well, not necessarily outside of canon, but that it was all sort of brand new, like, imaginations.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So it's, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker: And, you know, if you look at the next one, it's Angel and Buffy, but it drops drastically.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's really scary how many.
Speaker: So I think the debate of Spike or Angel, I think, is one with this.
Speaker: So there's 6,500 to date.
Speaker: And I should say that we're recording this back in January.
Speaker: So this is going to be really out now, the stats.
Speaker: So we'll just need to mention that.
Speaker: But yeah, so 6,521 Spike and Buffy.
Speaker: And then it's 2,433 for Angel and Buffy.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That is a bigger jump than I expected.
Speaker: It's a huge drop, which really surprised me.
Speaker: And the other one that, number three, is even more surprising with how close it is to Angel and Buffy is Giles and Buffy.
Speaker: which is 2,272.
Speaker: That is very close.
Speaker: Yeah, it's incredibly close because I know that it's not, well, it's not canon either.
Speaker: It's the first non-canon, but the most popular non-canon ship of the Buffyverse, followed by Xander and Spike.
Speaker: which is 1,990.
Speaker: So it's a huge number of fics that feature those two characters.
Speaker: And then it goes back to canon again, so with Tara and Willow.
Speaker: And the one that I've seen the most recently, particularly online, you know, people, this is not necessarily fic, but I think this is more wide-reaching, and it's Faith and Buffy.
Speaker: which of course is not a canon.
Speaker: I have to say I heard so much about Faith Buffy that when I was doing my very original binge, I thought Faith Buffy would happen at some, or maybe not necessarily happen because I knew that this was a 90s TV show, but that it would be alluded to a little bit more directly like Tara and Willow.
Speaker: But I was a little surprised when Buffy and Faith just sort of always stayed sort of the antagonistic sisters kind of
Speaker: relationship in canon because there's so much about it online that I was convinced that there'd be a little, you know, little hints in the background.
Speaker: That does fascinate me.
Speaker: I'm guessing that most of those fics are fix-it fix.
Speaker: Because I think there's a lot of people that really wanted that to, or expected it to happen.
Speaker: I can see why a lot of people would want to do fix-it works with Faith.
Speaker: Because she is such a rich character.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Well, I mean, they're all rich, aren't they?
Speaker: They're all fantastic.
Speaker: And of course...
Speaker: It's a massive cast, a massive recurring cast even, like not taking aside the main characters, the Scoobies and Angel and Spike and Joyce.
Speaker: But like the recurring ones are still like there's so many of them.
Speaker: And you don't see that anymore, I don't think, in television these days.
Speaker: Well, there's a lot about, you know, the monsters of the week and the holiday episodes, the fill-in episodes.
Speaker: Well, they call them standalones.
Speaker: Things like that Buffy thrived on, I think.
Speaker: And some of those episodes make Buffy what it is.
Speaker: Some of those monsters of the weeks is like they just feel so quintessentially Buffy.
Speaker: But you don't get a lot of that in television these days.
Speaker: And I think personally anyway, I do think that affects the fandom world of current television.
Speaker: And I think that's why Buffy lasts so long.
Speaker: It's because the canon material was so rich with opportunity.
Speaker: that it just keeps things, even to this day, wide open for brand new plots to come up in people's minds and they're like, I'm going to write this.
Speaker: And it's never been written before.
Speaker: Or you could take something like Tabula Rasa.
Speaker: Tabula Rasa, isn't it?
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: That's just you being an American.
Speaker: Sounds like a singer.
Speaker: Tabula, yeah.
Speaker: That's going to be my stripper name.
Speaker: What's the Irish of that, Sarah?
Speaker: You can have that one.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: I completely interrupted what you were saying about Tapula Rasa.
Speaker: Yes, that episode, I think is very commonly rewritten into Fix It Fix.
Speaker: I think that's one of the most common ones.
Speaker: And yet, I still see more and more new ones being written.
Speaker: And it's
Speaker: it doesn't matter how many are made.
Speaker: It's like, I will read every single one of them.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And people will still write more of them.
Speaker: And I'll go read them.
Speaker: Like, it's, I love that about, I think that can happen in other fandoms.
Speaker: I'm sure it does.
Speaker: But for me and the fandoms I've been a part of, it feels so much more prevalent in Buffy.
Speaker: There's so much more of a openness for that kind of
Speaker: I don't want to say repetitive fic, but stories that all explore sort of the same idea.
Speaker: It's welcomed even.
Speaker: People will accept the same five plot lines from five different writers who write them five different ways.
Speaker: It's just like, yes, give us more.
Speaker: Give us more.
Speaker: We love it.
Speaker: I think there's a lot of, in a good way, there's a lot of ambiguous parts of Buffy where you can, again, there's the potential for Buffy
Speaker: As you said, you know, that to happen and then this to happen.
Speaker: And there's so much that's open to interpretation.
Speaker: Faith and Buffy, you know, Xander and Spike, Buffy and Giles.
Speaker: These all non, I mean, these are just the top six.
Speaker: that the list goes on.
Speaker: There's so many.
Speaker: As you said, these storylines, that one particular episode can be rewritten and rewritten and rewritten and rewritten.
Speaker: It's just fantastic.
Speaker: And, of course, I believe there's what's called fan verse.
Speaker: fiction as well, fan verse fan fiction, which is fanfic inspired by existing fan fiction.
Speaker: That is pretty cool to think that as much as canon inspires us, that some of us have inspired other people to the same level where they think like, oh, I want to explore that idea too.
Speaker: Like that's, as a creative person in the creative world,
Speaker: I love that, like more creativity, like let other people, even people who don't consider themselves creative, but they love something so much, they just want to try something for it, whether it's art or writing or editing a little short video clip for TikTok, like any of that kind of stuff.
Speaker: I love it when people just try something like that and the creativity just spreads.
Speaker: That is the amazing thing with Buffy is you can sit through every episode almost and identify with it.
Speaker: And it's interesting what you were saying, Skyson, was you get this inspiration, you keep going, you keep creating, and it doesn't really matter what it is.
Speaker: It could be...
Speaker: a short reel online.
Speaker: It could be 100 words.
Speaker: It could be 100,000 words.
Speaker: And how that's inspired from other people's fan work.
Speaker: It could be a video that you've seen and you think, oh, I'm going to write a new fic about it or vice versa.
Speaker: You get that a lot.
Speaker: It's interesting, really, because this has been happening for such a long time and very early fan fiction.
Speaker: Did you know I'm going to sound like some...
Speaker: walking book now but the term as we know it fan fiction was actually termed in 1938 so it was around science fiction where a science fiction themed story may include
Speaker: already known character and of course science fiction was a huge thing around then but a lot of characters were borrowed and that goes back even further so you just rewind another 20 odd years 1913 there was a book using all of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice characters and it was essentially like an unofficial sequel written in 1913 but
Speaker: A couple of decades after the original, but going back even further, Shakespeare, most of his plays were based on known stories already, and it was just his interpretation which happened to stick.
Speaker: And of course, retelling stories was very common, and having a different interpretation of it, it just happens to be that his stories were very popular in a certain area.
Speaker: They were then written down.
Speaker: in appalling English, which we now call Old English.
Speaker: But those stories weren't necessarily his and his alone.
Speaker: They were retold by him.
Speaker: He was very engaging.
Speaker: He was a good storyteller.
Speaker: And I think that's really, you know, you can see the creativity and how people are inspired, you know, by Chaucer, by Shakespeare, by Austin, by Buffy, by Marvel, by anything else that you see, Harry Potter, you know.
Speaker: You have those creative ideas
Speaker: veins running throughout all of history, but fan fiction itself being one of the earliest mediums of fandom.
Speaker: And then of course art and by nature, you know, video and music.
Speaker: It existed so early on and it seems like in the outside world, out of all of the fandom related arts, fan fiction gets the worst rap.
Speaker: It is, it's funny, isn't it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's probably the oldest.
Speaker: Yeah, well, it's one of the most established types of fan appreciation.
Speaker: But it's lovely to see, though, when you do get fan fiction creating its own fan base.
Speaker: And, you know, the most popular is Fifty Shades of Grey.
Speaker: which was inspired by Twilight.
Speaker: All of the characters renamed, reworked, so it could then be published and then consequently became its own film franchise.
Speaker: I spoke to a few people, a few of my friends, saying I'm doing this episode and they were like, oh, fan fiction.
Speaker: Oh, that's a bit risque and smutty.
Speaker: I mean, we've not even discussed that.
Speaker: We've not even touched on that.
Speaker: Not yet, anyway.
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, it is really interesting and just out of interest, you know, what would you, if you've got someone is listening now and they've, I don't know, they've decided to write something or they're thinking of writing something,
Speaker: something or creating anything, whatever it is, or they've got it and it's ready to go, but they're absolutely terrified about sharing it in any form.
Speaker: What would you want them to know?
Speaker: What would you say to someone that's just, just needs a little encouragement?
Speaker: I think the special thing about fan fiction is that there really are no boundaries.
Speaker: It's whatever your imagination can come up with and whatever you want to write is
Speaker: it can happen.
Speaker: And the technical part of it, the right, you know, if you're worried about grammar, or if the British character doesn't sound British enough, things like that come with practice.
Speaker: Like with anything, the more you write it, the more you put it out there, the more people will respond, you'll learn.
Speaker: I mean, like I've, I've made numerous mistakes, I still make mistakes in writing and people point it out sometimes and
Speaker: I would say 99.9% of the time, any criticism I've gotten has always been very constructive.
Speaker: If you're nervous about that kind of thing, if you're posting it, I really would think to yourself, how much do you love this?
Speaker: How much did you love writing this?
Speaker: share that love for that.
Speaker: And people will, that comes out in the writing, whether you might not be aware of it or not, but like I've read stories where I can tell that maybe English isn't their first language, but they're trying to write in English.
Speaker: They wanna learn English, they wanna reach an English speaking audience.
Speaker: So there's some things that are off, but I naturally start to overlook those things or I fill in the word that I know that they meant in my head.
Speaker: And I because love that they have for their story comes through the page.
Speaker: And I think if you love something that much, like, don't be afraid to share it, because there is undoubtedly, as we've said, with the records and the numbers and everything, there are people out there that love it just as much as you do.
Speaker: And sharing that and becoming a part of it is pretty amazing.
Speaker: And it can be a beautiful place.
Speaker: As a writer, do you, I believe the term is beta.
Speaker: Better?
Speaker: The American phrase.
Speaker: Better.
Speaker: Assist.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: B-E-T-A.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you done that in the past?
Speaker: I do know, I know people who have like official assistants.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And they have, I've noticed where I'm reading, if I read an author who's proficient, they do a lot of fics.
Speaker: I'll notice the same name.
Speaker: They'll thank their assistant on their post and I'll notice that it's the same name.
Speaker: And there's a few I want to say, like, I think some pay even, like the author will pay someone to help them.
Speaker: grammatically with characterization, whatever they have a struggle with.
Speaker: So I find that very interesting.
Speaker: In my own experience, I've had friends who will bounce ideas off each other.
Speaker: And it could be anything small from would Giles say this word to I'm struggling with this plot point.
Speaker: I don't know how to get past it.
Speaker: You know, here's some ideas.
Speaker: Do any of these stick?
Speaker: And I personally consider those back and forths to be an assistant.
Speaker: Like it doesn't matter whether it took five minutes of conversation or it took a few days of thought and back and forth and everything till they helped me figure something out.
Speaker: Like any of that assists me.
Speaker: And while I've never paid for anybody or asked anybody to do that officially, I don't think I've definitely, I know I've used, I've used you, I've used you.
Speaker: numerous other friends and then they've come back to me and asked me for assistance with their own stories and that's such that's its own rich place to be I think because sometimes in those conversations the two of you can come up with a whole third separate plot line and there's a whole nother fic ready to go
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: As you said, it's an endless, endless cycle.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It sounds like a good way as well, potentially to overcome, say, writer's block if you're struggling with something like, do you ever find yourself in a situation of wanting to, say, continue an existing work or start something new, but you're literally just drained of inspiration?
Speaker: And how do you kind of get past that?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Having a beddo definitely helps with that, I'll say.
Speaker: Like if you have somebody who, especially if it's a fic you've been working on for a while and that person is very familiar with it.
Speaker: But it's great to have someone who's that connected and they can help you, like remind you perhaps.
Speaker: I know myself, I get caught up sometimes in the little details and I forget about something I may have mentioned many chapters ago.
Speaker: And I'll be reminded of that.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, yeah, I should reference that again.
Speaker: I should go back to that.
Speaker: I should tie that end up, whatever it is.
Speaker: But with full on block specifically, I have to say I am very guilty of having many, many works in progress that are in my folder.
Speaker: Whips.
Speaker: Whips.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Whips.
Speaker: Work in progress.
Speaker: I have over 70.
Speaker: I count it.
Speaker: Oh, my word.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: Over 70?
Speaker: Are they in just note form?
Speaker: These particular 70 are at least a scene, if not a good portion of a fic.
Speaker: Some of them are multi-chapter.
Speaker: Some of them are single, like one shot, what we would call a one shot.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: So if I'm at a point, let's say in my long story, if I'm at a point where I'm like, I'm not really feeling my muse isn't really in this moment right now.
Speaker: It's not that I'm necessarily blocked to a point, but the way I like to write personally is I don't force myself to do anything because in my own experience, when I force myself to try to write something, the quality goes way downhill.
Speaker: And that's, I mean, we're always our own harshest critic, of course.
Speaker: But so if I ever feel that point, I go through my whip folder.
Speaker: And if something jumps out at me and hits whatever mood I'm in that day, I'll start working on that one.
Speaker: I'll add, sometimes it's just a line.
Speaker: I'm finishing up a scene.
Speaker: Sometimes I end up finishing the whole fic.
Speaker: It just kind of, I just kind of jump around.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, it's fantastic to have a person to bounce those ideas off of.
Speaker: Even honestly, if the conversation doesn't really end in you hitting that light bulb moment, it's great to have that in the back of your mind.
Speaker: And then maybe you step back and you just let it rest for a day or two or a week or maybe even a month.
Speaker: I mean,
Speaker: For me, it's not, I don't give myself time constraints on anything.
Speaker: Unless I'm doing a specific challenge or I'm writing a gift for somebody, I try not to give myself a time limit because
Speaker: that stresses me out.
Speaker: Like it just makes me like just panic about the time limit and that's it.
Speaker: So if I'm feeling really just blocked about something, I'll take a step back and I'll kind of let it rest.
Speaker: And sometimes I will watch something completely different.
Speaker: I'll watch a movie or another TV show I've wanted to watch or I'll read.
Speaker: A lot of times I read fan fiction.
Speaker: So like with Buffy, for instance, I will not watch Buffy because personally I can no longer watch Buffy without thinking of a fic or thinking of one of my fics.
Speaker: It's impossible for me to turn it off.
Speaker: It's ingrained.
Speaker: I really can't watch Buffy just for fun anymore.
Speaker: Oh no.
Speaker: Something will inevitably always pop up and I'm like, oh, that's a good thing to bounce off of.
Speaker: And then the train is gone.
Speaker: So usually, but I will read Buffy fic and I'll just, you know, I always say you can't pour from an empty cup.
Speaker: I mean, it's such a used line, but it's true.
Speaker: So if I'm feeling really empty at that point, I'll just read a whole bunch of Buffy fic.
Speaker: Or I'll watch something completely different.
Speaker: Sometimes I'll read fic for other TV shows that I've not even... I mean, they're TV shows, as you mentioned before, they're TV shows I'm familiar with, but I'm not necessarily within the fandom.
Speaker: But there's some connection to characters, and I'm like, I'll read this, I'll just get inspiration from this completely different kind of relationship or completely different kind of plotline.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: One way or another it just kind of jars those creative juices in the brain and it helps me
Speaker: relax about whatever it was I was stuck on with my own and I can return to it.
Speaker: And unfortunately that can happen within a day or it could take months.
Speaker: I'm sad to say I'm one of those authors who frequently apologizes for lack of updates.
Speaker: Bless you.
Speaker: Or slow updates.
Speaker: I mean, when you say, oh, I read fic, you know, just to have that break, to give yourself...
Speaker: that creative spark and there was another term that I found really interesting when I was reading up on the breakdown of fan fiction and all those various aspects that incorporate and create fan fiction as a whole and there's a term called Fanon which I was like what?
Speaker: what's Fanon?
Speaker: because of course Canon is what happened in the show or in the book or whatever it might be
Speaker: Fanon is the unofficial canon, but it's been written so many times, it's almost considered to be what happened or what was said or whatever it might, or that character ended up like this.
Speaker: And again, if it sort of happens off screen or, I think you mentioned earlier actually, Skyson, where you've got...
Speaker: oh this character's background this is actually what happened to that character and I know there's a lot around the Giles character there's a lot of fanon around the young Ripper and all the rest of his useful days but there's another very specific to the Buffy Giles ship that I've picked up on and I've gone back and thought is this actually canon or is this
Speaker: I think it is Fanon, the term watcher mine.
Speaker: And I've looked everywhere in thinking it must be a canon thing, or even written in one of the official Buffy books.
Speaker: But it isn't.
Speaker: And it's such a, I don't know, I mean, I think...
Speaker: It's just one example and I'm sure listeners will have something that pops into their head that they go, oh yeah, is it canon or is it fanon?
Speaker: Do you find that helps you and gives you a bit of a framework?
Speaker: I would say yes and no.
Speaker: Only because a previous experience in a previous fandom, not Buffy related, there was a lot of
Speaker: fanon that ended up becoming kind of militaristically forced upon readers or writers or people who would discuss characters.
Speaker: There would be these ideas of this character that groups of people would be like, this is the fact.
Speaker: This has to be how they were when they were younger.
Speaker: And it's not really canon, but it's an idea that had been so prevalent that they insist that's the only way that should be.
Speaker: And it got kind of, there were moments in time where people would try to explore a different idea and they would kind of be, some of them would be really shut down.
Speaker: Some of them would just kind of quietly, um,
Speaker: disappear in the ether of fic and that sort of disappointed me in a sense i mean any of that kind of disappoints me because i just love the idea of open creativity and exploration and yeah if you can't deviate from yeah what's the point that's me earlier you know alternate universe it's it's all alternate isn't it it's
Speaker: It's a very interesting, you know, because if there are sort of set, I say set rules, set guidelines, of course, you know, you've mentioned that and presumably, you know, that there's certain, well, we know that there are the most popular ships, right?
Speaker: which I don't know, in some respect, I'm sort of kind of disappointed that it is canon.
Speaker: Because you think, oh, okay.
Speaker: Did you not get enough in the show?
Speaker: But clearly not.
Speaker: I'm someone who very rarely...
Speaker: do any of my ships be canon?
Speaker: Very, very few.
Speaker: I can think of like two and a half.
Speaker: And on that vein, it's... I don't want to say it's boring to have canon ships.
Speaker: Like, because I don't want...
Speaker: Obviously, people get so much enjoyment out of that.
Speaker: Again, my favorite fan fiction is the joy that's behind all of it.
Speaker: But personally, myself, when I'm writing, I find myself bored.
Speaker: Even with shows I love, I get a little bored writing things.
Speaker: what I know happens in reality.
Speaker: Personally, I have more fun writing the non-canon relationships because whether it's a friendship or it's a romantic relationship, it's so much fun to explore all the different possibilities that didn't happen on screen.
Speaker: So it almost gives me more freedom to go in wildly different directions.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's almost using those pieces and pulling it all apart and creating a new jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker: You know, from what you've already got.
Speaker: So you can tell this line from this episode and this story, this storyline, you think, well, that would have been a good opportunity for this to happen or for them not to say this or for them to say that.
Speaker: Yeah, I totally get you.
Speaker: And I think I was very surprised to see how high up a canon relationship featured.
Speaker: Because I've not really ever looked at the figures.
Speaker: It's only really since we've been doing this podcast.
Speaker: We looked very early on, didn't we, Sarah, right at the beginning of this series.
Speaker: So the top three canon is...
Speaker: And this is not in the order that they are combined, but Spike and Buffy, Angel and Buffy, Tara and Willow.
Speaker: They're the top three canon.
Speaker: The top three non-canon.
Speaker: are Giles Buffy, Zander Spike, Faith Buffy.
Speaker: So it's a really eclectic mix.
Speaker: When I was first getting into Buffy fan fiction, there was still a lot of the individual websites active, where it was like your specific ship had their very own website where they hosted their own fiction.
Speaker: And it was all separated.
Speaker: And I was like digging through a bunch.
Speaker: And I think all of those, they have been, I don't know about as active, but they've been active since the beginning, I think.
Speaker: Which I find, like, that's just, it's amazing.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's Buffy.
Speaker: So what generation are we in now?
Speaker: There's probably four distinct, like, mature enough generations of people who are discussing the same ships and things as before.
Speaker: And it's still, like, new stuff's coming out or new ideas are thought, new phrases are said that sparks another new idea.
Speaker: And it's like, this ship's over 20 years old now.
Speaker: It's amazing, isn't it?
Speaker: They've just come out with the Buffyverse audiobook.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: They're still coming out with new content that's even considered kind of pseudo-canon.
Speaker: I say that because my personal opinion about canon is kind of strict.
Speaker: But yeah, they're still coming out with brand new content for the show, which is just... I love that.
Speaker: I think Buffy particularly is very special in that regard.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think, you know, the fact is that Amber Benson has been very heavily involved and has been a very powerful force in creating the audible Buffyverse.
Speaker: It's really interesting to see that because Amber Benson has seen and is still very aware of the fandom.
Speaker: And I know, I don't remember the year.
Speaker: It was during the show.
Speaker: They did a big panel.
Speaker: It was a bubble.
Speaker: Buffy panel and it was one of the very rare occasions that the majority of the cast were there including Sarah Michelle Gellar who didn't often do a lot of the fan panels and Amber Benson actually mentions she said oh yeah fan fiction and
Speaker: I think she's very specific.
Speaker: She even says, oh, yeah, there's a fic with Tara Willow and Giles.
Speaker: So she's very, very specific.
Speaker: But to think that there is someone closely associated to the original show, very closely associated to the fandom, and very in touch with both.
Speaker: And that's why, you know, it's come about.
Speaker: And I think what's lovely is that everyone's been so supportive.
Speaker: It might not necessarily be.
Speaker: And this is the thing, you know, you've had 20 years to think about it, sit on it and go, I would have done it this way or I wanted to see this.
Speaker: And this is why there's over 40,000 people.
Speaker: pieces of fan fiction just on one side alone.
Speaker: So you've got all these years and years and years, decades of people going, well, this would have been nice if this happened or I want it to go this way.
Speaker: So it may not necessarily be the story that you wanted, but everyone's in that mindset where you go, I'm really glad that there's a story there.
Speaker: I'm glad that they're all together again.
Speaker: Music
Speaker: So we've kind of mentioned how supportive the community is in general with Buffy fan fiction.
Speaker: But I suppose as with any fandom, you do get the negative side as well.
Speaker: And like we say, there's lots of different ships, canon and non-canon.
Speaker: And I think we've probably all seen that there are certain groups of people who can get a bit...
Speaker: I don't know if hostile is the word, but sort of they get very possessive of their particularship.
Speaker: And it's like, you can't write about this one.
Speaker: You know, it's just wrong or, you know, there's a lot of judgment involved.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I just wonder how much of that you've encountered as a writer or even as a reader.
Speaker: Like, how often would you see that?
Speaker: And I suppose what's just the takeaway from that?
Speaker: I think surprisingly, I haven't experienced as much of that as probably other people have.
Speaker: I mean, if you look up my name, Skyson, you're going to know that I write Buffy Giles fics.
Speaker: And those are the only ones I really read unless there's side pairings in those stories.
Speaker: And those are the only ones that I choose to explore.
Speaker: But I have to say the community is generally one of those read and let read, ship and let ship kind of communities.
Speaker: So I think I've gotten very lucky in that regard.
Speaker: I'm probably a bit insulated now.
Speaker: We'll see if it stays that way, but whatever.
Speaker: I explore the characters themselves, so I don't really pay attention, unless it's something...
Speaker: Crazy, which I don't think it ever has been.
Speaker: You know, most of my ships have had some form of age gap, but it's never been insane.
Speaker: But I like to explore that and try to make... I mean, a lot of mine, Buffy's older in many of my stories.
Speaker: I think it has to do with just your sense of where you personally are in your life.
Speaker: And with Buffy, I love to explore the idea that with everything that she goes through and all of her trauma...
Speaker: that she grows from that in a sense, which makes it, I guess, she grows in the show, but not as much as I personally would like.
Speaker: I think she had her, you know, her cookie Buffy metaphor with Angel.
Speaker: And I like it felt very Buffy, but it felt very early Buffy.
Speaker: I love to explore the idea that Buffy is more mature and I bring a more mature Buffy and older Buffy into my stories.
Speaker: And how would that relate to Giles?
Speaker: And like in the comics, they de-age Giles.
Speaker: Of course, they de-age him so much it becomes awkward in the other direction, but he's now too young for Buffy.
Speaker: I find that for anyone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't even know why they did that.
Speaker: It's kind of crazy.
Speaker: But I like to take that and just because they're Watcher and Slayer.
Speaker: Like they have this connection that they've had since season one.
Speaker: You mentioned the Never Kill a Boy on the First Date where they have that bonding moment at the end of that episode where Buffy realizes I'm not alone in this destiny of mine.
Speaker: Like in his own way, he has his own destiny as a Watcher.
Speaker: I think my favorite stories to read and my favorite ones to write are exploring that relationship when they're older, that watcher, slayer idea of destiny.
Speaker: I mean, so many stories across so many fandoms explore that kind of relationship between people.
Speaker: And I think the Buffy Giles one just has the opportunity to explore that in a really healthy way if it's done right.
Speaker: And because they have just so much growth together as characters in canon.
Speaker: They have a lot of, I mean, there's moments where Giles learns and grows, even though he's, especially when you're watching it as a kid and you think, oh my gosh, he's ancient.
Speaker: And you look at him and you're like, what?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: he's the hot one in the show come on I never thought that by the way it was always which didn't help me like I always thought he was the hot one so yeah you know it's a stupid Sunnydale I would have hardcore crushed on him it's like what's wrong with everybody else why can't they see it it was like why are you asking me about Angel and Spike I don't understand come on what do you mean barbarian
Speaker: But yeah, so that's the big thing with me is that idea of, it's a soulmate idea, honestly.
Speaker: It's whether you take that as romantically or you take that as a platonic soulmate relationship.
Speaker: I think they do have that soulmate relationship.
Speaker: And yeah, it's just, I mean, it's ripe for exploration.
Speaker: Honestly, all of the characters' relationships are romantic.
Speaker: ripe for exploration.
Speaker: I know, I think you mentioned it in the introductory episode, maybe Sophie, about the writers had explored different relationships with Buffy over the years with different main characters.
Speaker: And they kind of, like they, they all as a writer's room kind of thought about what would it be like if Buffy got with this person?
Speaker: What would it be like if Buffy got with that person?
Speaker: Yeah, it was very specific, actually.
Speaker: It was about, I mean, I'm sure they did this multiple times, but the reference that I read, I think it's actually from a commentary.
Speaker: It's actually specific for season six and seven, because, of course, they were looking at those two seasons.
Speaker: in the new network and the idea being five was the last one, et cetera, or had to be written as potentially the last one.
Speaker: And yeah, very sensibly, as you do in a writing room, you say, okay, well, where do we want Buffy to be?
Speaker: who do we want Buffy to be at the end of this?
Speaker: And do we want Buffy to be with someone or not at the end?
Speaker: And then you work backwards and then you say, okay, so how does she get to be with that person or not with that person?
Speaker: And they did that with every single character.
Speaker: They said, well, who could she be with?
Speaker: would this progress her story in that way?
Speaker: And you have to look at things very objectively when you're writing, when you've got to tell a story and you've got so many hours to tell it.
Speaker: And then in reality, you break that down.
Speaker: And yes, Buffy has the most scenes, but Buffy doesn't have the most scenes with just one person.
Speaker: She has two.
Speaker: you know, a fight scene and then she's this and then she's doing that and then she's recovering and then she's speaking to Dawn and then she's, you know, all the rest of it.
Speaker: So you have all these multiple story arcs progressing.
Speaker: So, and as a writer, you have to say, well, what is the quickest way of progressing that character's arc?
Speaker: Do we want to do it that quickly?
Speaker: How do we, you know, and this is really, well, in canon, you know, that's why you see her going down that awful path
Speaker: depressive route you know they wanted Buffy to be as low as possible so they said okay how low can we get her and how are we going to get her that low and as much as people love Buffy and Spike they needed her to get to the point where she was bottom she hit the bottom and an element of that a huge element of that was her relationship with Spike
Speaker: Like, I think it's just like when you're trying to come up with, like, how can we put Angel and Buffy together without him losing his soul?
Speaker: And, you know, it's this whole plot line you have to consider and make it work.
Speaker: And the thoughts and everything that goes behind that is, I mean, I don't do that myself just because I'm very, like, one-track minded, but it's just...
Speaker: The level of passion that goes into coming up with that story, which gives the fandom as a whole a strength.
Speaker: And I believe that that is what can make fandom like, well, it is what makes fandom fantastic.
Speaker: I mean, I keep going back to the joy of it.
Speaker: But that's kind of what it is.
Speaker: And at the end of the day, it's, you know, whatever brings us joy.
Speaker: It's fiction.
Speaker: We're writing fiction.
Speaker: We're coming up with fiction for fun or maybe to deal with our own traumas of some sort or...
Speaker: as we're growing up and maturing and learning about our own beliefs and thoughts of the real world, maybe we're writing fiction to deal with that.
Speaker: And we're using the Buffy world to do that.
Speaker: And I think allowing everybody their place to do that in is very important.
Speaker: At the end of the day, it's fiction.
Speaker: This is fiction.
Speaker: And it's a fandom world meant to be explored and meant to be enjoyed in your own way.
Speaker: And especially with things like Archive of Our Own,
Speaker: It's so fantastic.
Speaker: We're able to create our own little niches inside that.
Speaker: So we can go into archive of our own and start picking out filters and everything like that.
Speaker: And we can block things that we know might trigger us.
Speaker: We can block things we know that we just don't enjoy to read or things that we just don't agree with to a point where we just don't want to read it.
Speaker: And generally, you know, it always depends on how good somebody tags their own story.
Speaker: But for the most part, it's such a great archive of works to be able to curate your own reading experience.
Speaker: So you can truly focus on those Buffy Spike fics that focus on her or him both like
Speaker: growing together better in season six, I think.
Speaker: There were opportunities that might have existed where they could have helped each other without getting so dark and being able to explore that.
Speaker: And you can block out, you know, the angel stories that you don't want to read or the Giles stories you don't want to read and you can focus on those.
Speaker: And with anything in fandom, if there's something that you just can't personally handle, just block it.
Speaker: So there's so many fantastic tools out there that we can use to really help curate our own online experience and with ships and with the hostility that comes between ship wars.
Speaker: I mean, I remember when I first started watching Buffy, the Spike versus Angel thing.
Speaker: And in the media, the public media just, they expanded on it so much because they were getting so much input from people commenting that the media was like, Buffy Spike, Buffy Angel, and that was it.
Speaker: And that became the whole thing.
Speaker: Like, I stopped seeing stuff about Willow and Tara.
Speaker: Or Giles and Jenny.
Speaker: Like, people don't talk about them anymore, at least from what I was seeing.
Speaker: People write fiction for all kinds of reasons.
Speaker: And a lot of it is to deal with their own trauma.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or their own, not even trauma, but just life experiences.
Speaker: And you want to explore...
Speaker: How might these characters deal with this situation that I was in in real life?
Speaker: Like, you know, so sometimes it could be it could be something really it doesn't necessarily need even need to be, you know, that you see the experience that you've also had.
Speaker: It may it may just be something that you see in that one character that you think, gosh, that really.
Speaker: That really speaks true to me.
Speaker: I say my interest in Giles was, you know, he was an English character.
Speaker: I mean, I was just starting to wear glasses.
Speaker: And I was very conscious also about being left-handed because I was just constantly berated for it.
Speaker: And all of a sudden there was this English character who was very bookish.
Speaker: Again, I was very bookish.
Speaker: And I was very, very conscious about being left-handed.
Speaker: And it was actually seeing an actor, and he's very prominent left-handed.
Speaker: I'm very prominent left-hander as well, in the sense that it distracts, you know, when you're watching someone.
Speaker: You think, God, why are they holding it that way?
Speaker: And it actually, that really caught my, and it was that.
Speaker: And it's really silly, isn't it?
Speaker: But, you know, at that point in time...
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: I think we can find comfort in the smallest things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's almost what makes the characters feel more real to us when it is a small thing like that.
Speaker: It's like they are human in a way.
Speaker: I mean, they're fiction and it's a created character and everything, but it gives them a sense of humanity and familiarity.
Speaker: I think Xander sums it up when he says, what would Buffy do?
Speaker: And the answer to that is you can have Buffy do anything you want in fan fiction and it's fine.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It makes you happy.
Speaker: So, and I think, you know, the other thing is as well is don't be put off.
Speaker: If there is something, we've just listed the top ships.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: you know, the most common characters.
Speaker: But if there is some random character that you absolutely love in Buffy and you want to write a fic about that person with another person or just them on their own or whatever, do it, write it.
Speaker: And it could be 100 words, it could be 100,000, it could be a video.
Speaker: You know, it's not, please don't think that you just have to write.
Speaker: But of course, you know, it's one of the most accessible ways.
Speaker: of getting creative.
Speaker: And yeah, you know, head over to, there are multiple fan fiction websites.
Speaker: I think Skyson, you mentioned.
Speaker: Yeah, there's fanfiction.net.
Speaker: There's of course, Archive of Our Own, which is probably the most prolific.
Speaker: There's honestly, I think there's still a ton of standalone websites that if you searched for your specific character that you love or your specific ship that you love,
Speaker: You should be able to get results for, I'm sure Archive of Our Own and fanfic.net will be the top ones, but I'm sure there are other results that will pop up on individual websites still run.
Speaker: I know the Wayback Machine is a website you can use to go find older ship sites or
Speaker: Fandom sites that may have shut down, they're still accessible through there.
Speaker: If you want it, I mean, like Sophie said, if you want it, like write it.
Speaker: You know, it's don't worry about if it sounds good or if it's comparable to somebody else or if there's
Speaker: a ton of words or a small amount of words.
Speaker: Like, just write what you want to read and it'll come.
Speaker: The rest will come.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much, SkySyn, for coming on to our little podcast.
Speaker: And it's
Speaker: It reignited my interest in wanting to explore fan fiction, to even give it a go myself.
Speaker: Sarah, you've said that you're a writer.
Speaker: Are you going to go away and write some fan fiction now?
Speaker: I am.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I made it a New Year's resolution to get because I wrote shockingly little last year.
Speaker: So I want to this is a good excuse to get back to that.
Speaker: So there we go.
Speaker: So as you said, Skyson, at the beginning, you know, if just one person connects with your story.
Speaker: But if one person just today listens to this podcast and feels inspired, then it's
Speaker: Fantastic.
Speaker: And I'm sure you wouldn't mind if anyone wanted to get in touch or follow you.
Speaker: Do you have a handle that you want people to know about?
Speaker: I have a Tumblr account, which I'm kind of admittedly hit or miss on.
Speaker: I'm trying to get back into it.
Speaker: I was very active years ago.
Speaker: And
Speaker: But yes, I have a Tumblr account that is CaptainSkyson.
Speaker: That's S-K-Y-S-O-N.
Speaker: And then I have a Twitter account, which is almost entirely Buffy, though I do mention my other fandoms on there.
Speaker: And that is at not a grocer, which is my Giles reference.
Speaker: Brilliant.
Speaker: But yeah, it's and it doesn't have to.
Speaker: I mean, I'm an outward and happy Buffy Giles shipper.
Speaker: But even though I'm not familiar with other ships, I'm quite happy to talk about them with other people.
Speaker: like for whatever reason, if they want to just discuss plot ideas or character thoughts or anything like that.
Speaker: Like I'm always up for discussion with anybody and everybody.
Speaker: Any excuse to talk about Buffy?
Speaker: Any excuse to talk about the island.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I mean, that's what it's all about, Giles, in the end.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for coming on and for discussing so much and going through in such detail the mechanics of writing and the inspiration behind your work.
Speaker: And your many, many works in progress.
Speaker: I mean, gosh, we're in for an amazing addition to, I'm presuming it's exclusively Buffy Giles.
Speaker: So that will take the total up to...
Speaker: 2,342 if you finish all of those.
Speaker: So, well, we hope you enjoyed this bonus episode of previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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Speaker: So just search for us and well, you'll find us.
Speaker: Thanks again, guys.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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