Transcript
Brett: What up pod peeps?
Plant People: I don't know
Jessica : hallo
Alexis : What up?
Plant People: it's ah It's September at this recording, so all things Halloween, yo.
Alexis : How's it going? How's it hanging?
Alexis : It's a bird month.
Plant People: Pumpkin spice. It is a Burr month.
Jessica : We're officially here.
Plant People: that It's the best one of the but best sections of the year.
Brett: It's time for Oktoberfest.
Alexis : Ray.
Plant People: Ma.
Alexis : this ah
Plant People: Oh, it is.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Oktoberfest is September, which throws some people.
Brett: Party.
Plant People: yeah
Brett: Party on weekend.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: Party all week and on weekends.
Alexis : Do we... Brett, I feel like you can answer this question. do we Why is it called Oktoberfest if it's not in October? Because it's not actually the month.
Brett: I don't know. I don't know.
Jessica : Right.
Alexis : No?
Brett: it might It might be like celebrating the coming of October or something.
Alexis : Felt like... Mmm.
Brett: I can't remember. I have looked it up at one point.
Plant People: So that only legit people will know it. Yeah.
Brett: However, we did have something one time we were talking about recently. It might have been in a text thread, not on the pod. but why the swallowtail butterflies are called swallowtails.
Alexis : ah
Jessica : So yeah.
Brett: And it's because the tips of their wings, Jessica was very, very close. She sort of said it without. without exactly saying, but the tips of their of their wings kind of resemble the tips of the tail of a swallow, the bird.
Jessica : How are you annoying?
Brett: And so the naturalists who gave those common names. Called it a swallowtail Eastern swallowtail all those kinds of things
Alexis : oh to be the person who names birds i feel like they're in just a league of their own
Plant People: Nice.
Jessica : That or insects like people
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : Mmm.
Jessica : is where they're still discovering so many new insects like you'll see where some of them have like harry potter names
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : And you'll see like like other things of like what people are interested in and they'll name these like, you know, species, subspecies of a wasp, you know.
Plant People: kind of social influences
Brett: The Wingardium Leviosa wasp.
Jessica : oh Yeah, something like that.
Plant People: Hmm. Exactly.
Jessica : Yeah.
Brett: Not Leviosa.
Plant People: It's diagonally, i Wasp.
Brett: Leviosa.
Plant People: Love it
Brett: Well, I got a quick question.
Plant People: We need more of it.
Brett: This is kind of a speed round because we got some things to talk about. I know we were in the prep. We were talking with DJ Sheffield. about uh some mixtape she's been working on or seed mixes or something i don't know uh, But...
Alexis : Same, same.
Plant People: Same thing.
Brett: Do you have... It can be a new. New to you. Old favorite. song or album. that you've been rocking to lately.
Plant People: I've got one right off.
Brett: Oh yeah.
Alexis : Give it to it
Plant People: It's Rock Me Amadeus by Falco. ah said I know I pulled that one way out of the archives.
Brett: Wow
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: That's the like, Amadeus, Amadeus.
Plant People: Yes, Brad, I was relying on you to be the one to get the reference.
Brett: Amadeus, Amadeus, Amadeus.
Alexis : you're You're going to get us canceled um for copyright infringement. Don't sing it.
Plant People: ah Is he really?
Brett: i I take that as a compliment because that was that was a perfect...
Plant People: ah that is That was a compliment.
Alexis : It should be a compliment.
Plant People: Yeah, perfect pitch.
Brett: Replication.
Plant People: it was ah It's going to set off digital filters, Brett. Too close.
Brett: Sorry about that.
Plant People: Yeah, I don't know why, but that's random.
Alexis : Osh.
Plant People: That just it got stuck in my head.
Brett: That's so good. Are you like cranking that on the way into work? and That kind of thing.
Plant People: And sometimes on the way back as well, both ways, both ways it works coming and going.
Brett: Mm hmm.
Plant People: I mean, pony by genuine was going to be a close second. I've been, I've been really, uh, really rocking that one a lot because that's, you know, got a catchy beat and a undertone, a good tune, but yeah, just a Falco.
Jessica : oh Okay.
Brett: Dude. Boop. Doop.
Alexis : mm -hmm mm -hmm
Brett: Wow.
Plant People: Yeah. right me onma dayis Going back to the golden oldies. What about you guys?
Alexis : Um... I feel like what's been popping up more often right now is Shania Twain, so...
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: na Me.
Alexis : Mhm.
Brett: min a an ne me
Alexis : Let's go girls.
Brett: laughter
Alexis : That's how I rally the troops.
Plant People: yeah
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: That's the call to arms.
Alexis : Like like there's just like no
Jessica : Yeah.
Alexis : woman in on the planet who doesn't like immediately just want to kick down doors when they hear let's go girls
Jessica : It's true.
Alexis : It's just it's a fact of life.
Brett: wow Yeah.
Jessica : It just happens.
Alexis : yeah Just...
Brett: that took annie I took Annie to the airport recently at like 4 .30 in the morning because she had an early flight.
Alexis : something in us.
Alexis : Bleh!
Brett: And I got in and for some reason, well, the music, the volume was cranked because she had been listening to it, but it connected to the radio instead of our phone. And it just immediately launched in with, whose bed have your boots been under?
Jessica : oh That's a classic.
Plant People: Perfect. and perfect
Brett: And I was obsessed. And he was less enthused about that.
Plant People: hey
Alexis : ah
Plant People: You were all in on that, it sounds like, Brett.
Jessica : A good one.
Plant People: You went all in on that.
Alexis : And you. and Don't change it! Don't change it!
Plant People: no no no don't touch it don't touch it
Alexis : Change it.
Brett: Well, because they're... Yeah, yeah. it's a great one
Plant People: Brett was totally locked into the tunes.
Brett: Jess, you got any?
Jessica : Ah.
Brett: Particular jams.
Jessica : I had a song I was listening to on repeat and I cannot remember what it was now because everything has been a little crazy hectic right now.
Plant People: Blue's clues. and Theme song.
Jessica : No. um two songs that we do listen to on repeat and i think i've said it before is uh don't stop me now by queen and ah elton john's i'm still standing
Plant People: but
Plant People: oh That's a classic.
Brett: Having a good time, having a good time.
Plant People: That both good.
Brett: Oh man.
Plant People: Sounds like you're on a scene kick.
Jessica : those Those two, my, yes.
Plant People: Sing the movie. Yeah.
Jessica : sing that's how they know about elton john's i'm still standing
Plant People: that I love both one and two for the jams in those movies.
Jessica : No. But they. That whole song is that we play that one every morning along with Don't Stop Me Now by Queen.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : That's our songs for the car line.
Alexis : That's a good going to school song for sure.
Jessica : slow.
Plant People: Super classic.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. Super classics. Good stuff.
Brett: I have two shout outs. One is to. ah phoebe bridgers has a new album out i've been listening to that one
Plant People: Okay.
Alexis : Mmm.
Brett: um It's growing on me. I'm figuring it out. I was a big Phoebe Bridgers fan from the jump. I saw her several times at small bars that will she'll never play again.
Plant People: oh
Brett: So just so you guys know that I was cool.
Plant People: Not so much anymore. You were in early.
Jessica : You are cool.
Alexis : He's been he's been here.
Brett: Um.
Alexis : Okay.
Plant People: You ran early.
Brett: And then the other one's this guy called Stephen Wilson Jr. that I've been really into.
Alexis : Hmm.
Brett: um His most claim to fame is he has... um um He has a couple of songs that he plays that are on YouTube reels and stuff including ah a cover of Stand By Me and it's just him in a Like. Wired up. uh classical guitar and he has this really cool like Virgin Mary hat.
Alexis : Mmm.
Brett: that he wears that's like a classic kind of Mexican celebration of the Virgin kind of. ah motif. So. those are Those are my two. current jams, I'd say.
Plant People: Coffee house seven tunes. I love it. and Good stuff.
Brett: That's right. yeah
Plant People: Yeah, both, both super solid.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Good. but Those are vibes, Brett. It's kind of a whole vibe.
Brett: Yeah, well the...
Plant People: Maybe it goes beyond a vibe.
Brett: One of the things that people... will say when you ask them about music is they'll say, they'll claim that they listen to everything. And I'm like, liar, because there's a literally an and infinite amount approaching infinite amount of things that you could be listening to.
Brett: And in reality... What they're saying is I listen to a mix of things. but they think that the more that's in the mix is the better but that's not necessarily the case
Alexis : o
Brett: i think that can be kind of the same sometimes when people get enthusiastic about starting wildflower meadows and things like that they just think more diversity the better maybe maybe not But that's going to be our topic today.
Alexis : Oh, there it is
Plant People: Mic drop.
Jessica : yeah
Plant People: You just led us right in. We see what you did there, Brett.
Alexis : the the transit I'm sorry.
Jessica : Right.
Alexis : Like, I know we should have just flowed through that magical transition, but it was too good not to recognize.
Plant People: We...
Jessica : Oh. Right, it was.
Brett: Thank you.
Plant People: So smooth
Alexis : Yes. So about this, well, pretty much any time of year it feels like, except maybe the dead of winter. We have all gotten plenty of questions on the, I have this random area of.
Alexis : lawn or field or whatever and it is I want to make it into a wildflower meadow and
Plant People: Hmm?
Alexis : ah How do I do that? And I want it done. for fall or I want it done for spring or whatever it is. and and
Brett: Ideally maintenance -free.
Alexis : Correct.
Jessica : Right.
Brett: Low cost.
Alexis : cracks Yeah, no.
Jessica : I just wanna throw some seeds out.
Alexis : I don't want to do anything.
Jessica : And by midsummer.
Brett: Come on. It's natural.
Alexis : Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica : Have a...
Alexis : It's native.
Jessica : full flower field.
Alexis : It's the native plant, right? That's how it works.
Brett: And I will say, before we jump into to to the things we're going to say.
Alexis : Okay.
Brett: People are doing this because they're maybe interested in biodiversity. They're interested in these things like native plants. It comes from a good place. but
Alexis : Yes, pollinator habitat.
Brett: Sometimes. Just like with everything, if you scratch below the surface you will find...
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: many deep caverns to to explore.
Plant People: It seems like people that I've worked with, they apply their their knowledge ah to one of my favorites, you know, like a zinnia patch along the side of the garden.
Alexis : If...
Alexis : Mmm.
Plant People: And if you think about that as being more like one of the easier benchmarks of having like instant gratification, instant success and super reliable, okay, zinnias, you know, they're not super specific or picky.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: And I think people benchmark it. based on like the experiences with flowers like zinnias, but I guess wildflower mixes, they are a bit different. And there's lots of different kinds of mixes and ah different ways to approach it. But i think I think that sometimes sets people up for expectations that are not, depending on the size of the project.
Plant People: uh there's more steps involved and there's more patience required with a ah wildflower planting so that's interesting but i i think people just ah kind of they want to go one step further which i think is very it that's very cool they want to go native for whatever reason And so they get interested in like locally adapted wildflowers.
Alexis : Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Plant People: But yeah, I think our flower gardens that, you know, like Xenia's, I'll pick on that because it's one of my favorites because it's so successful and so reliable, but it's a different thing in it.
Alexis : Or your your annual flower gardens, right?
Plant People: Annual, yes.
Alexis : like it
Plant People: And that's a great yeah that's a great point, Alexis.
Alexis : There's a dick between...
Plant People: I guess that's where I was leading with that is annuals versus something that is just a bit different in its establishment phase and on and on on and on.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, and they're perennial. So like we always talk about with trees or shrubs or any of your other perennials, like it takes years to get to the point of no maintenance, you know, or little little maintenance, let's say.
Alexis : There's there where, you know, annuals are, you can kind of put them in really quick. There's instant gratification for the most part. This is, if you can be diligent for three years, then you have very little to no maintenance moving forward.
Alexis : or probably no more than you had before if you were just mowing a field, but...
Plant People: Mm -hmm.
Alexis : It's that first three years of work that really, I think.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Scares. scares people off or they're confused on what do you what do you mean it takes three years to put like i see wildflowers in the ditches what do you mean
Plant People: Yeah. Exactly. They're like, I mean, how hard can it be because we see these beautiful, you know, black eyed Susans along the roadside and they've gotten started.
Alexis : <unk>
Plant People: What you don't see is, you know, it's a succession situation that may have happened over 10, 15 years.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: Slow movements, slow biological succession to get to that point. So I think when I think of wildflowers, I think of a different. time scale. immediately in my head and not only that but you know you think about like wildflower mixes And you think about all the different sizes of seeds and some, a lot of wildflowers, they germinate.
Plant People: completely kind of differently than what
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: people may be accustomed to.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: different, completely different requirements. So it's interesting. There's just a lot there to kind of unpack if you're really serious about establishing, you know, a planting, a sizable planting or even smaller plantings to be successful, like you said.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: You got to follow the steps.
Alexis : Yeah, so so the reason we're talking about it now just um you know, we said it's the beginning of the burr months
Jessica : right
Alexis : But there's kind of two windows of time to start this process. and the First step. is getting rid of whatever is currently there if there's something there so if it's you know maybe an old garden patch or something that has been tilled and you're like you know I just I don't want it to go back into grass but it's already ready to go then you're steps ahead of the game but I think for most people who call us correct me if I'm wrong they're wanting to take
Alexis : a already grass field or something on along those lines or plot or whatever area of yard and convert that
Brett: Or kill your kill your lawn, devotees.
Alexis : Right, kill your... And... turn that into you know this Wildfell. flower meadow or prairie or whatever you want to term you want to use. And so there are kind of two windows of time to start this process of Getting rid of that stuff and which one you do um,
Alexis : Which window of time you select is dependent on which method of ah removal of turf um that you want to do.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : So you know in the fall months, you're looking at... um is predominantly and starting an herbicide regimen, which I know for a lot of people who want to put in wildlife, that's usually the number one thing they say is, I want a wildflower meadow for pollinators, but I don't want to spray herbicide to get rid of what's there.
Alexis : And that's, it's tough. It is doable on smaller scales. And i like, we can talk about that, but. That's an incredibly tough thing to do and I just I don't want to like yuck anybody's yum going either direction but if you're doing like you know, more than a quarter of an acre per...
Alexis : to say and maybe that's even extreme there are very little
Plant People: A quarter of an acre, yeah, that's a big planting, yeah.
Jessica : yeah
Alexis : Yeah, there are very little options that are non herbicide that are that still remain sustainable, right?
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Because like, the other options usually are plastic based, like you're killing off via solarization, or, you know, black plastic. And so it's kind of like the trade off of like, well, I will have all of this plastic and all of this plastic waste because it's probably not going to be good anymore.
Plant People: Smother.
Alexis : Or I can you know do what's called a burn down, which is herbicide treatments. And then. Either direction you go, you're establishing something really good for the environment, right? So it's like, what's better?
Jessica : And I think...
Brett: Yeah, let's let's explore that ethos a little bit.
Jessica : i think oh
Brett: Because...
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: I myself have. you know kind of thought more and more about this. and And one of the things that I perceived relatively early on so back many moons ago I was managing some trials, some of them conventional, some of them certified organic. You may know there are not most the commercially available highly effective herbicides are not allowed. under the organic standards there are herbicides but they're different types.
Alexis : They're not systemic. yeah
Brett: and And the thing that... I found... was generally speaking in those type types of settings you either were doing kind of what you're talking about where there's some sort of a petrochemical solution, whether that be uh pulling of a tractor combustion internal combustion engine tractor through the field with cultivation or or A herbicide. Or...
Brett: labor.
Alexis : Mm -hmm
Brett: so literally people out there with hoes or hands and knees pulling you know weeds etc and so I think. the The thing with herbicide. controversies. And we you know we operate at the University of Kentucky. Herbicides are a part of some recommendations for some guides and things like that. So we're not going to take a strong...
Brett: Stance on that, but I think in this case The question is... is the herbicide going to be like an absolutely critical piece of your management going forward?
Brett: Or is it a tool you're using as a gateway toward other mechanisms for management? and i think
Jessica : Right.
Brett: In general, it's number two.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Brett: It's... this is going to be a thing that we're going to do intensely for the first year, maybe a year two, depending on how it goes and where you're apply where you know where you have successes.
Brett: But I think... It's this nuanced thing where people want. in a world where people want a black and white answer.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: but to me so we have we have killed our lawn functionally 90 of it and converted it over to A chaotic. wildflower.
Brett: concoction of sorts.
Plant People: English garden, Brett, English garden.
Brett: Yeah, the front is more English Garden.
Alexis : Yes, yes.
Brett: The back is more like... ah ah Lord of the Flies. But... Um,
Plant People: There can be only one, maybe a little Highlander in there.
Brett: But... In that process, we did use some herbicides. and had to reuse some herbicides in some cases to kind of keep things at bay and now We don't have to apply herbicides.
Brett: At all, or at at least at the rate that we were before.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: so it's there's some systems that the herbicide is just part so like a for example a monoculture roundup ready corn mix That's part of the plan is that you're going to spray herbicide as part of the management strategy, which is one thing.
Brett: But this is a very different thing. And so I think some of the purity politics can get in the way of what would ultimately be a longer term, much more satisfying.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: and and good result.
Jessica : it I think what also is helpful, like when you're talking with people about these and, you know, like you said, nobody wants to do the burn down when you first initially say that. But then you bring up, well, do you see Johnson grass out there?
Jessica : Do you know what that is? You know what bush honeysuckle is? Do you know, you know, and you talk about these.
Alexis : A lot of invasive species, particularly.
Jessica : and invasives that are that they have had experience with like in landscape beds or around their house and they know how difficult those are to control and then that kind of helps I think you know ease it a little bit with like okay we're going to use these as like you said like a tool because we we might be able to smother the grass and stuff out but some of these are like winter creeper or you know some of these other things we might have to do something a little additional to it.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Jessica : And so we're just like using that herbicide for that tool that one time, maybe two times, depending how long it takes.
Alexis : Right.
Jessica : But then you said the ultimate goal. you know we're not going to end up using them anymore. um But I think that also really helps like when you look at that landscape, like what's actually out there?
Jessica : Is it just grass? Is it you know something more aggressive?
Alexis : Mhm.
Jessica : And that makes it a little easier. Not. not saying like to convince people to use it, but just like a little easier to make it be like, okay, this justifies.
Alexis : understanding.
Jessica : Yeah.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Jessica : we need to use something a little stronger Right.
Alexis : The ends justify the means a type of thing.
Jessica : Right.
Alexis : Yeah, yeah.
Plant People: you know, and We're going to talk about, like and Lexis is leading already into the conversation, there's multiple methods depending on how big of an establishment you're working with. Obviously, it's going to look different if it's 100 square feet versus a quarter of an acre or up.
Plant People: But the reason we're... going to spend some time where we are spending time on the podcast today talking about this is that To get establishment, whether you're doing it yourself or if you approach a professional company, we do have some of those in Kentucky that offer services, turnkey services from the seed to the prep. They won't even work with you unless you have a rock solid plan with dealing with.
Plant People: competition that's existing, whether it's a bush honeysuckle or fescue.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: And I guess that's the point. One thing, kind of an underlying theme or overarching theme is that you have to deal with the competition one way or another, whether it's.
Alexis : Right.
Plant People: solarization, smother techniques, suppression cloth. or whatever burndowns, ah you you have to control the competition that's there or it's the nature of wildflowers. that's um It's the nature of establishment and the types of seeds that are going in the ground.
Plant People: They will not outcompete what's there. So you have to.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Plant People: You really, if you're serious about it, you have to take. care of what's there using you know one of the methods or something maybe you have a novel combination of methods whatever that is you need to to to be successful you need to do that um So I guess that's the point of the conversation.
Plant People: And there's multiple methods and ways of dealing with that. But that needs to be the. Probably, I guess, guys, the first thing you consider is eliminating the competition. Kind of like a good mafia movie, you have to eliminate the competition.
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: kind of thing and establish, I guess, a Lexus water base, a clean slate.
Alexis : Yeah, yeah, and it's...
Plant People: before.
Alexis : um It kind of depends, you know, if you're like, I just want to do whatever, you know, you're not opposed to one method or the other. And depending on the size of your space, you know, there's there's different timelines.
Alexis : There's also like a level of patience.
Plant People: ah
Alexis : And so if you're using like a burndown herbicide method, you're going to be able to put seeds in the ground a little bit faster than you will be if you're going to use a solarization or a smothering method.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : And the difference between those what we're talking about here is like.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Alexis : Smothering we're referring to when you're putting down like a black plastic, so it's eliminating light.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : And while it does heat up, the research shows that it might kill some of the grass that's there, but it doesn't kill any of the seeds that are there in that seed bank, which is still competition.
Alexis : Solarizing is using a clear plastic that is going to heat the soil up, so it's going to also kill the first couple inches of seed bank there. So that's what we mean when we say that. And then burndown we keep referring to is herbicide use, usually two to three sprays.
Alexis : where it looks like you have burned the field. If you were in an area and you're experienced or can hire somebody experienced, you could also do an actual. burn like um you know they do in native prairies and stuff um But, you know, that's that's well beyond what I would...
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah, we did a lot of that in my intern one of my internships.
Alexis : be comfortable. talk to you about that. Yeah.
Plant People: But that was like for native grasses and stuff. And that's that that requires permits and things.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah, it was like permits.
Plant People: but
Alexis : Permits and...
Jessica : time of year especially check with division of forestry they would not be happy if you
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Timing. Yeah, yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica : Hmm.
Alexis : Yes, please make sure you follow the rules.
Jessica : Yeah.
Brett: and before before we move on from killing stuff to hopefully promoting stuff living
Plant People: Yeah. Heh heh heh.
Brett: Just to clarify, one of the things Alexis said was about multiple applications of the thing. If you haven't come across the idea of a weed seed bank or even just a grass or whatever seed bank.
Alexis : Hmm.
Brett: It's this idea that the plants that are there, if they're allowed to go and put seed on and produce seed, they drop those seeds and not all of those seeds germinate the next year or the next, even then in the next 10 years.
Brett: And so all the soil. Unless it's been managed very intensively for a long time and intentionally. Has a weed seed bank So in other words, you spray it.
Brett: And then magically the grass grows back, even though you killed all the grass that was there. It's because there's additional seed and other things, not just grass.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: When she's talking about spraying multiple times, it's this thing of where you spray and kill the first round. You let another round of seeds germinate. You kill those. You maybe let another round of siege germinate.
Plant People: Like a fallow bed prep.
Brett: you kill those yeah like a stale seed bed or whatever that kind of vibe
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: And what that does is it's you're you're getting out ahead. of multiple generations of seeds and you're reducing the weed seed bank over time in a way that will help you because you're you're putting a new plant into a new area for it alongside a bunch of plants that have been in that area and adapted to it across time.
Brett: We're just trying to give them the best shot that we can. So that's, but that's the whole two to three applications thing is you're letting, letting it grow back a little bit and then spraying again.
Plant People: Hello.
Brett: or or you're doing whatever again.
Plant People: And I... Really stress here, Brad, exactly ah kind of piggybacking on what you just said. And I'm thinking of a specific individual I worked with, it's six, eight years ago, but they did everything correct. They did a great, they did a, you know, burndown plus ah another burndown to catch, you know, misses, you know, three weeks later.
Plant People: following the prescription, did a great job. And then later I followed up with the person, went out and it was just a bunch of weeds. And I was like, oh my goodness, what happened?
Alexis : okay
Plant People: I mean, you did a great job. but it turns out that they went and lightly tilled three to four inches deep.
Jessica : Oh.
Plant People: After they cleared the slate.
Alexis : Turn them up.
Plant People: But it it goes to – it kind of speaks to what Brett was just saying. There is a seed bank there, and every inch you go down, you're – uh you know uncovering and allowing more germination. So one thing you have to keep in mind when you're preparing, you know, Whichever method is to do minimal teal.
Plant People: uh on a lot of wildflower seeds and isn't it correct guys ah a lot of wildflower seeds and i know we're kind of slowly progressing you know to this point probably but like they require sunlight any which way to germinate and they're tiny you don't want to do a lot of tillage any which way because they will go too deep you'll lose them so
Alexis : here
Alexis : Yeah, I think the... the average, like,
Plant People: And to be careful.
Alexis : you know, rule of thumb for a lot of, for wildflowers is going to be about a quarter inch down. So like basically you don't even necessarily.
Plant People: Like a cultipacker. or something, just press it in.
Alexis : Yeah, well, yes, so that's... So that's one way like part of the establishment process. So let's let's jump back to timeline a little bit and kind of why we're talking about this.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis : now in the BRRRR months. um
Plant People: Hmm.
Alexis : is so if you are going to do an herbicide method, let's just start there. And then as we follow this timeline, we'll talk, we'll bring in some of these other ones. So If you are going to do herbicide, the best... ah
Alexis : Course of action for our area, our Kentucky area, probably a lot of the states that surround us, is going to be a fall application and then a spring application right before planting, right before seeding. um If you have really bad invasive species ah or you know you're going in like after a lot has been taken up, trees out of, or something like that, you may do a third, but two is usually the recommend recommended.
Alexis : thing for like past old pasture area and fields um so that's why we're kind of bringing it up now because hopefully you'll hear this if you're wanting to do it and then if herbicide's the route that you want to go um or you have a really big area you can go ahead and get a spray in now uh and then again in around um April early April is usually the next one and then you can go in and see pretty shortly after that um
Alexis : to get that done. So that's, that's a start, right? So we're going to spray in September. We're going to spray again in April if the weather is good. um And then we're going to put down seed.
Alexis : And so you'll be getting seed in around April. And there are you know some seed that is a little bit better than others. To Ray's point he brought up earlier. Every...
Alexis : Every plant can have different dormancy which options. That seed can remain dormant. Maybe it needs a cold period, things like that. So you won't necessarily in that first year, whatever germinates you know in that summer, you won't necessarily see everything.
Alexis : So like don't lose hope if you're like, I haven't seen any of my...
Plant People: Sometimes you don't see much at all. Yeah.
Alexis : Right. Sometimes you don't see much at all, but you might say, I don't see any of the echinacea that was in that seed.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Alexis : Well, it could be, I don't know off the top of my head, but it could be that echinacea needs to go through a winter period. And so it will germinate the following spring. So, and that's fine. We want it to kind of sit there.
Alexis : It'll imbibe with water. It'll hang out. And then it will grow when. you know, it's, it's time for it to grow when, the when the environment is correct for that. So like, don't panic. If you get a seed mix, you only see one or two things in that mix come up.
Alexis : um So then you would be planting in April. Now, if you're going to do solarization or like a smothering technique, you are going to start doing that at the start of the warm month.
Alexis : So depending on what kind of spring um Kentucky is having, having that could be that could be April too.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : But you know a good rule of thumb is early June. And so you're going to put down... either like a black plastic tarp that does not breathe this is important it is not landscape fabric this should this should restrict water um not allow water through so you're going to put down your plastic of some type um And you're going to leave that on all summer.
Brett: Alexis, just before you go.
Alexis : Okay.
Brett: That that would be... you wouldn't You wouldn't put your seed down and then do that, right?
Alexis : Right, right. this is This is different.
Brett: This is...
Alexis : Yes. Thank you.
Brett: So if you're going to do the solarization slash black plastic slash approach.
Alexis : Clarifying.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Brett: That means you can't really kill your grass at this point until next year.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Right.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Right. Right, right.
Brett: But if you do the herbicide, you can kill it now and kill it in the spring and seed.
Alexis : You're looking at 2027.
Brett: With this, you would be killing it over next summer and then see seed after that.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: Trying to give like seasonal options. Yeah.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: For those that want instant gratification like this guy, I'm like, what can I do now as I'm listening to this show?
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah, yeah.
Plant People: So yeah, option A, option B, it sounds like, yeah.
Alexis : yeah Yeah. Yeah. And so really, I mean, it's kind of, I don't want to say like as simple as that. And so then if you're, you know, you kill off all your grass or whatever, and then you're going to put down some seed in the fall. um you're probably going to put down a ah mix twice because there are some seeds that
Alexis : Will die over like if you're they go down in seed form they'll die over the winter you have to put them down in spring So make sure whatever mix you're getting um You know you're looking at the time of year for planting and that really can go from for both, but like. to surprising to me as I was like doing research because I'm about to do this personally was that it is recommended even in our zone to
Plant People: Hmm.
Alexis : seed in the spring because most of the time we tell people like trees and shrubs we want to do fall and i'm thinking oh native plants would want to go see go down in the fall but actually
Plant People: Oh really?
Plant People: Did the winner, yeah.
Alexis : Yeah, but actually for like the wildflower species that we. are recommended to put down in this area, spring is the better option, which really did surprise me.
Plant People: Oh.
Alexis : um I was like, are you sure?
Plant People: And it's amazing how specific.
Alexis : i literally like like a professional told me this and i was like that's not right and i
Plant People: They know. They know, yeah.
Brett: it makes me It makes me wonder, do did do they give you any indication of why?
Alexis : Um... I...
Brett: i can I have some personal experience with why not to do it.
Alexis : it's
Alexis : Why not to do spring?
Brett: Why why not to do it?
Plant People: and So you're a case study, Brad? Are you a personal case study?
Alexis : Well, and like exactly like rain can all can be an issue both too much and not enough in the spring for us can be a you know problem versus the fall. I think it's just.
Brett: Oh, no, i meant I meant why not to do it in the fall.
Alexis : Oh, well, I was thinking in the fall was this beast, Jessica.
Jessica : oh
Alexis : Do you have something?
Plant People: this
Jessica : Yeah. I was thinking the fall as well. Cause like in my mind right now, a lot of milkweed.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : talk is going on in my realm of world and like
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : you know I know that common milkweed. people get packets of it in the spring and if they plant it in the spring it doesn't
Plant People: It just lays there.
Jessica : Yeah. It doesn't really come up well versus, you know, so I'm trying to direct everyone to a lot of these perennials or like the echinacea.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : Like I know it needs to go through a cold period.
Alexis : Mm -hmm
Jessica : So I'm interested like why.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Jessica : as well i would have done the same i'd be like why
Brett: Well, in my experience, we we tried planning in the fall because I didn't have this podcast to listen to.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Brett: and Alexis and you all to save me from it. The birds ate all of it.
Plant People: oh
Alexis : Ah.
Plant People: getting ready I knew there must be some practical considerations in there.
Brett: because Because nothing germinated, nothing grew.
Alexis : In the fall.
Brett: and
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: because like you're in us in essence your stuff that germinates in the spring covers the seed. bed. of the stuff that that would be my hypothesis because
Alexis : Mm -hmm.
Brett: we put down the world's most expensive bird seed.
Plant People: ah yes very expensive
Brett: Uh... And...
Alexis : I... I think there's probably multiple reasons. I think the other one is... um that you want to put seed down pretty quickly after you're doing like multiple um you know if you're doing herbicides, this second round of herbicide.
Brett: right
Alexis : ah You want it quickly because you don't want anything to sprout, in like any weeds to sprout in the meantime. we want We want our stuff to be the stuff that grows. And if you're putting it down early enough, I think you can get enough things to germinate in the spring where it's just moist.
Alexis : The soil is still a little bit cool. um ah Yeah, I think.
Plant People: prep is just that important it's just that important good prep yeah
Alexis : Yeah. And I just, there are some species like Rudbeckia that don't necessarily need that cold period or as long. And so that they'll, they'll go ahead and do their thing and then you can get some other stuff come in.
Plant People: Hmm.
Alexis : And I guess perennials, you know, they. Start out. They're usually not flowering year one, which is a little note.
Plant People: Gosh.
Alexis : Don't freak out.
Plant People: Now...
Alexis : Don't freak out when they don't.
Jessica : When you said that, I have.
Plant People: They look like weeds.
Alexis : Yeah, they look like weeds.
Jessica : I've had that. with coneflower with echinacea before and it's just like well There's some nice green foliage.
Alexis : Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Maybe next year we'll get some flowers.
Alexis : Yeah. they're just growing their foliage and hanging out in the spring and i think the moisture
Plant People: Mind Beside the Garden took four years to really get going and be self -sustaining and actually have a...
Alexis : Mmm.
Plant People: presence I thought that year three they had a little bit in year three but year four on it actually looks like pictures that you would see in a magazine and I don't do anything with it much at all but that took
Alexis : mm -hmm
Brett: Flex. ro Ray flexing on us there.
Plant People: Took four years.
Alexis : Right?
Brett: But...
Alexis : It's kind of basically a magazine.
Brett: My backyard looks like a magazine.
Plant People: But.
Brett: It's weird.
Plant People: I wanted to go and plow it up being me and Jennifer's like let's give it some time I'm like oh it's too shady down here this is terrible and no year three I was like oh god it's blooming I wanted to go hide the evidence I want to go cut it off I was like this is terrible this is terrible and she's like oh I saw we've got some blooms in the corner and I was like so we do
Brett: ah
Alexis : uh -huh
Plant People: So we do. But that's a great point. you know The mixes that I've seen and people that even do this professionally, I've heard them say, be careful. Because wildflowers, you know, because what wildflowers do, most of our natives, they put down root first, okay?
Plant People: They don't put all their energy to making blooms the first year to make us happy, even though we would love that.
Alexis : is thing
Plant People: They're a root first plant. They, their superpower is another important concept is their superpower is they thrive with very low fertility.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: So be careful. not Don't fertilize a lot.
Alexis : Well, and that to that note, do not before you seed, don't put down compost or anything like that.
Plant People: um
Plant People: Mm -mm.
Alexis : They actually will do better.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: The weeds will respond to that more than the wildflowers.
Alexis : in Yes, before they will. Yeah, yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. It looks like a wheat field when you put these things down year one.
Alexis : hu
Plant People: And Alexis, how you you said something about a multi -year kind of a progression. But year one is like just wheat field to me.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Almost.
Brett: It's just an opportunity to enhance your plant identification in the absence of an identifiable bloom.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: It looks like a wheat field.
Alexis : Is this a weed?
Plant People: ah Yes.
Alexis : It's what I planted.
Brett: Is this construction man -made and artificial?
Alexis : like
Plant People: Yes. Nobody knows. I don't know. I don't know what it is.
Alexis : So definitely keep a list of whatever mix that you plant so that you can like go on and be like, wait, is this what I think it is?
Plant People: Mm -hmm Yeah.
Plant People: And that's part of the expectations we mentioned at the beginning of the show. This is where the differences start to show up, okay? Low fertility, lower fertility is what you want.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: and It takes longer to have presence because a lot of these things literally don't show up till year three, you know, it'll grow.
Alexis : Mhm.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Plant People: And then the second year you'll have some blooms and the third year, if everything goes to plan, you'll have the diversity and kind of the, it starts to show up like it.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: it is in the pictures
Brett: If... It reminds me of like... like personal finance. You know?
Alexis : No, I don't know. Please tell me.
Brett: So the... the people People you later on in life, you find out, oh, this person's really wealthy and they live a very not flashy lifestyle.
Plant People: I wanna know.
Plant People: Ah. Well.
Brett: They live within their means.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: They add things as they can over time, as opposed to the person who shows up in a Lamborghini day one, which would be our flashy annuals who are not thinking about the future.
Plant People: Zinnias.
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: Nice, Brad.
Jessica : right
Brett: The perennials are living in terms of generations.
Plant People: Nice.
Brett: They're living in terms of years. They're not they're not thinking it of it that way.
Alexis : They're thinking about retirement.
Brett: They're investing in that retirement account, a .k .a.
Plant People: Okay.
Brett: their root mass, a .k .a.
Plant People: Yep.
Brett: putting their roots deep and and in a sustainable way. And then later the results show up in modest ways. You know, the the show some of a lot of the flowers on these things aren't super showy, even once they're... developed, but in aggregate. They're beautiful.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Brett: Anyway, Alexis was saying in April, we put our seeds down.
Plant People: Good one. I like it. I like it
Alexis : Yeah. Yeah. So Avery, you put your seeds down and basically that year you're just looking for. spots that may be your herbicide or your solarization will you solarization whatever it is you're doing didn't take If you're getting.
Plant People: Looking at you, Johnson Grass and Thistle.
Alexis : Yeah, john looking at you, Johnson Grass, those rhizomes, man. um
Plant People: Oh gosh, yeah.
Alexis : So that's what you're kind of keeping an eye on and you want to nip those in the bud really quickly so that that it's not spreading.
Plant People: No pun intended.
Alexis : and Not exactly.
Plant People: Hmm.
Alexis : And you don't want that plant that should be in theory in a weakened state from already being. hit with herbicide twice you don't want it to regain strength right we want to get it while we want to get it while it's weak
Brett: So you're talking about like man manually pulling the weed or or maybe doing a wicked.
Plant People: Like spots
Alexis : Manually pulling. So you can spot spray or wick spray or something like that.
Brett: victory.
Plant People: doing some kind of spot.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. And is that the first year, did you say?
Alexis : But yeah.
Plant People: I mean, when you start to observe things?
Alexis : Yeah, after...
Plant People: yeah
Alexis : After seeding, just kind of keep an eye on everything.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Alexis : um And you're pretty much just letting it go other than the weeds.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : The weeds are your biggest problem. ah If there's no rain or too much rain, you're not going to be able to do anything about that. And the beauty of the natives is that they... usually can roll with the punches as far as the environment.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : You just let nature take its course.
Plant People: Oh yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Not a problem.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: And once again, superpower, most of them.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: thrive in those conditions where there's no there's no intervention.
Alexis : Right.
Plant People: i mean that's that's
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: what one of the things that makes them natives.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: That's pretty cool.
Jessica : If we've talked about like being cautious of the seed mixes. Cause I just, I always think in my mind, I had a coworker once that she was so excited and she was like, I totally made this landscape bed.
Alexis : Mhm.
Jessica : I'm going to plant these wildflowers. It's going to be great. And then, you know, I talked to her about the weeds. Bachelor button.
Plant People: That you did really good with that one thing.
Jessica : That's all. yeah Absolutely. And then and then.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : It's always Bachelor Button.
Jessica : like And then that's all that came back. year after year.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : and She was just like, I hate this plant. I hate bachelor's button.
Plant People: I've had that one with milkweed before.
Jessica : And... and so that's all all it was you know so
Plant People: It's weird. Yeah.
Jessica : You know, being careful, we we talk about these seed mixes and all the things in them and paying attention to the back of what the, you know, the packaging, what it says is actually in there.
Alexis : Mhm.
Jessica : And how different is one package really compared to another package? Is it just like one plant, you know, difference? So I think that's something.
Alexis : Yeah, let's...
Jessica : to always look at.
Alexis : Yeah, let's talk about the seed mixes because I have i have bones to pick with some of them.
Plant People: Oh, man, that's a deep, dark hole. All the mixes.
Alexis : So so first of all, I will tell you that the
Plant People: Wow.
Alexis : Um. NRCS recommends... which they're kind of ah kind of a standard for wildlife habitat establishment, pollinator establishment, which is what we're talking about.
Alexis : They recommend a minimum of 10 different species. of plants So not necessarily genus. So you can have two different rutabecchias or two different goldenrods or whatever. Those count as two just because they're both goldenrod doesn't mean it's bad. too We're talking about the species here. 10 different species is kind of is is the minimum for their recommendations. They prefer um up to 15.
Alexis : But 10 is what you're looking for. So I would start there as you go look for them number two I would go for.
Alexis : From reputable sources, I would not buy these at your local box store because these are not specific to your area. You are wanting to look for a seed mix that is for your zone, for your you know state, whatever. So they can be really specific into areas you know of even your state, Piedmont region, different things like that. So look for some areas or seeds from there.
Alexis : And then the other thing is we're, again, going back to sort of the NRCS's standards, they're looking for all perennials. You will often find some annuals in that mix. You know, I don't As a horticulturist, I would tell you that's probably fine if one is one or two are annuals, such as your bachelor's buttons or cosmos, you know, stuff like that, because that gives you that instant gratification year one.
Brett: Poppies.
Alexis : But it also can bring in a lot of pollinators, pollinators. Like annuals too? right? That's great. The one issue that can come up with them to Jessica's point of the bachelor buttons just keep coming back is they can become the weed that is the problem.
Alexis : yeah They are annuals, but they will self -seed as Brett knows well too.
Brett: yes
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : And so.
Brett: Well, this is the thing you you might think, oh, this was an annual, but it keeps coming back every year.
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: Well, the thing that's happening is it's putting out seed.
Alexis : Yeah.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: that is then falling on the ground, a la you in April and of your establishment year.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: Don't mess. up Mother Nature's process. yeah
Brett: And i'm not I'm not down on it.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: I just wish we had a little bit more of a acceptable policy in our household to pull them. before they flower.
Jessica : Hey, Brett, I'm going to have to cause tears this next year because we have Mexican sunflower that we absolutely love and it's gone crazy and it's receded and it's smothering out. some of my native perennials.
Jessica : And so I'm like next year.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : Yep. Exactly what I was getting to.
Jessica : in the cover the cover
Brett: because they're not thinking of their own future. They're just trying to grow up. blow up and drop those seeds. They're not like the other ones.
Plant People: They're pulling up in the Porsche or Lamborghini.
Brett: That's why that's why they can explode like that.
Jessica : in the In the cover of darkness, I will have to rip them out so nobody sees.
Alexis : set up
Brett: Imagine with a ski mask.
Jessica : my biggest is thelowers
Plant People: Oh, calamity. Not the sunflowers. Where did they go?
Alexis : um But yes, to that to that point, they can... Um, keep your perennials that you actually really want for this long -term low maintenance thing from coming up, right? So, so just be wary if there are annuals in that mix. And if you're not sure what's an annual or perennial, you can Google it and, or you can send us an email at horticulture.
Alexis : a podcast at gmail .com. ah So feel free to do that. But there are some really good mixes out there. ah Your and NRCS can absolutely recommend them to you. Like I'm looking at my recommendations. There are four different mixes. They are very similar, which is great because it allows me some flexibility. ah But there's a mix of native grasses as well as um flowering plants and they are flowering.
Alexis : The other key that you're looking for is that there's multi -season flowering. So you're going to have something flowering, uh, and even grasses flower, right?
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Grasses have that, but there's something flowering and. Pretty much every season except maybe the dead of winter, which is fine because the wildlife... um or trying to support, which is if we're thinking about pollinators, they're all dormant.
Alexis : But the seeds are for the birds in the winter.
Brett: Oh yeah.
Alexis : So it all works out.
Brett: Oh yeah.
Alexis : So.
Brett: we have we have a recurring ah goldfinch population that comes in our backyard every fall and
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : um
Alexis : Yes.
Brett: it's really ah It's really lovely.
Alexis : Noms.
Brett: I love watching them work work the...
Alexis : Hehehehe.
Jessica : They're so cute.
Brett: work the seed heads and, um,
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Brett: Would you mind, Alexis, to to just run down the list of the mix that maybe you're leaning toward or one of them that kind of jumped out at you of just what they are?
Alexis : Mhm.
Brett: I'm just curious.
Alexis : Yeah, well... I haven't picked one yet because some of this will be, you know, what I can like get a hold of. but all i will
Brett: Commitment issues
Alexis : I will tell you what all of them have in common might be like the easier thing, which is going to be. A Rubeckia. It's for for Kentucky. For our area, it's Rubeckia Herta. And for those of you who are like, what is the common name, Alexis?
Alexis : That's fair. This is just your standard black eyed Susan.
Plant People: That's Susan. No.
Alexis : This is not the anything fancy. Your standard black -eyed Susan.
Plant People: She totally picked it.
Brett: Every time I hear Rude Becky, I can't help it in my head say, call it Rude Boy Boy when they get it up.
Alexis : They all.
Brett: So shout out Riri.
Alexis : Try not to re -read Rebecca.
Brett: Thanks for listening.
Plant People: Props.
Alexis : The other one is Monarda fistulosa, which is bergamot.
Plant People: Bergamot.
Alexis : Bergamot? Monarda? I love a Monarda, man. you i can't You can't go wrong.
Brett: More of a Home Depot man myself.
Alexis : Oh, well, that's a shame. They all have.
Plant People: That's too bad.
Alexis : Echinacea purpurea, which is the purple coneflower.
Plant People: okay Yeah.
Alexis : Again, the very basic.
Plant People: These are like the greatest hits list. I like all of these are the ones that are like the workhorses of wild.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : I know.
Jessica : You can't...
Plant People: I love this mix.
Alexis : Yep. Yep.
Plant People: And this is what they're recommending. This is good stuff.
Alexis : Yes.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : You can't go wrong with any of these.
Alexis : The. um
Plant People: No.
Alexis : Right. And so like I said, there's four different ones plus the native grasses that do need to be included. We're just talking about the actual pollinator stuff.
Plant People: Where's the tick seed? We need some tick seed in there.
Alexis : um Well, the...
Brett: What are some of the grasses?
Alexis : The grasses, of course, you've got your little blue stem.
Brett: Hmm.
Plant People: Yep. Good one.
Alexis : you've got You've got big blue big blue stem.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Alexis : not to be not to be outcompeted by the little
Brett: Mm -hmm. Mhm. Mm -hmm.
Plant People: They are a lot different now.
Brett: It's not about the size of the bluestone.
Alexis : um Side Oats, Grandma.
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: Mm hmm.
Alexis : And then switchgrass and indiangrass are your other.
Plant People: Indian grass. So that's the four biggies.
Brett: Cool.
Alexis : are your other options.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: Man, I can already see the textures.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Plant People: And that's some bunchy stuff.
Alexis : And then.
Plant People: Yeah, that's some tall stuff in there.
Alexis : Yeah. Yeah.
Plant People: Four or five i mean feet. Yeah, some of that's really tall.
Alexis : And this is great. Yeah. You know, that's going to hold on. We've all these different root types between the grasses and the pollinator to really hold onto the soil.
Plant People: Yeah, the root system of that's pretty incredible.
Alexis : So this is great in areas that maybe get some. a lot of runoff or something like that happening, flooding areas, stuff like that.
Plant People: so With that mix, every two to three years, you're mowing high with that mix, with those grasses you mentioned. So that's sort of jumping ahead to the maintenance phase.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: But I can just tell from that mix, yeah, that's ah that's a mow every...
Alexis : Mm -hmm.
Plant People: other year every third year Yeah.
Alexis : A few others that are all like all. In all of these different mixes, um you've got your New England Aster. That's going to give you that late fall bloom, especially.
Plant People: Another good one man.
Alexis : like the bee If it's a warm fall, it's really great for the bees, I'm told.
Jessica : Those are great.
Plant People: It's great.
Alexis : beekeeper please correct me but it's your late bloomer
Jessica : I... A thousand percent tell people to plant those.
Alexis : Mhm.
Jessica : they're just they're just now starting to pop open and they will be covered if you do
Alexis : Yeah, and they're just pretty like you think everything's done and then Yeah.
Jessica : If you're... If you're allergic to bees, do not plant one.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: There'll be a lot of bees around, yeah.
Brett: If you don't like seeing bees happy, then don't plant this.
Alexis : And then.
Plant People: Yeah, we don't we don't like that.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : That too.
Alexis : There's also always some sort of goldenrod included.
Jessica : Okay.
Plant People: Oh yeah.
Alexis : Specifically, they have um ridida, which is the rigid goldenrod. the one that's recommended but there's other ones recommended too so the The others change. and Remember, I said there's 10. So I but basically gave you the five that are consistent. And then the other five are kind of a mix and match of different things. I really want anything that has.
Alexis : um penstemon which is beard tongue in it because it's one of my favorites personally um
Brett: Cool name, too.
Alexis : But. Yeah, so it's just what I'll be able to get a hold of. But if you're in Kentucky or probably any of the states that touch us, those five are going to all be probably pretty consistent.
Plant People: Like.
Alexis : um
Brett: But who who gave you this list of mixes?
Plant People: in the base. Yeah, that's what I was gonna
Alexis : The NRCS gave me this.
Plant People: Is it a publication that just anyone can access online, Alexis?
Brett: Nice.
Alexis : Yes, yes. They have tables um online if you if you Google it. ah We also have tables at the University of Kentucky that have all of these on here as well.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Alexis : ah But this list is very specific because of grant funding. They are like, this is what you have to put in.
Plant People: Oh gotcha.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : But if you have more flexibility in what you you know have or what you're able to find, there are plenty of great species. And these are, again, ah more specific to full sun.
Alexis : you know kind of basic field versus if you've got a swampier area or a shadier area, you're going to have different natives.
Plant People: Well drained.
Alexis : And so that's also important to know.
Plant People: and
Alexis : the area you're planting.
Brett: one One very small PSA that I would put out for, especially if people are... on the kill your lawn. Um, train. which is cool. I think we we treat each other unfairly and meanly sometimes based on our choices. And so I don't like that aspect of the kill your lawn culture, but all other aspects I clearly embrace. um It is also okay.
Brett: if you're doing small areas, to buy a plant.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Brett: that is already germinated already and i may be stealing some thunder here but like
Alexis : Yes.
Plant People: Oh, heck yes. Instant gratification.
Brett: if you yeah because And the advantages of that are multiple.
Plant People: Let's go.
Alexis : Please.
Plant People: Let's go.
Brett: One, you're supporting somebody who has started that thing and grown it, which is cool.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: ah
Brett: you are going to be able to know exactly where you planted it. And so you don't have to do the plant ID of like, is this a weed or is this something that's coming up?
Alexis : and In theory.
Plant People: I'm gonna put a flag down. Boop.
Brett: it's going to probably It'll still take some adjustment, but it's probably going to flower sooner.
Alexis : yeah
Brett: It's probably going to grow bigger in the first couple of years.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: a lot of the stuff we we have done both but a lot of one of our core
Plant People: That's awesome.
Brett: Beds was started with. a mix of some grasses and some echinacea and some Various. Asclepias of milkweeds of different sorts. And so.
Brett: Just a thought. you know if if you're not If you're doing like a quarter acre or a half acre or something or more. That's probably crazy, but you can also do just a couple of plants in a couple of places if you really like something in particular. so just to
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: No, there's no ah no stratification period on a live plant.
Plant People: You can jump ahead, yeah. Heck yeah.
Alexis : Yeah, no, I mean, I would love to do live plants on the if if I could afford it on a large area. That would be the way I would go too.
Brett: Totally yeah.
Alexis : But yeah, it's just seed is much cheaper.
Brett: Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis : So, yeah, len like lastly, we'll talk about um your, you know, your long term. What does this look like? The bent the good thing is after your three. Life should be pretty chill.
Alexis : for your wildflower meadow. Like you can. You can pretty much let it be except for watching out for those invasive species to come back. You know, if you get a dead patch because, you know, you had sitting water there, you had to till up something or whatever, you know, you'll have some issues, you know, with some invasive species coming back in there. More, you know, Johnson grass might pop back in.
Alexis : But if you take care of that pretty early and keep an eye on it just and we're not talking like you don't need to go scouting like every week like you might with your garden just like twice a year do you know once in the spring once in the fall To me.
Alexis : try Anybody else chime in would be enough because you're going to see any of those spring weed problems and head them off.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : And then you're going to see any fall weed problems.
Brett: Most essentially, do not let it go to seed.
Alexis : and
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : God, no.
Brett: Just as a very like backstop on your thing, you know, the the. thing can grow and it with a tuberous thing you kind of want to kill it early because the stronger it gets the stronger it gets but
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Brett: with some of the stuff like a Uh... pigweed or something like that that can produce.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Brett: millions of seeds.
Jessica : Spiny pigweed.
Alexis : Good girl.
Brett: Um,
Jessica : It's terrible.
Alexis : Piggly's awful this year.
Brett: The main thing is don't let that go to seed because you've now.
Alexis : It's like 30 years.
Brett: contributed and On the personal finance, you've now re -contributed to the seed bank.
Alexis : in the seed bank.
Brett: a significant
Plant People: You're never going to financially recover from that.
Alexis : It's like you're paying really high interest on a loan.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: okay
Brett: That's right.
Alexis : That's what pigweed is.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: That's right. You put it on the credit card, baby.
Plant People: the The payment, it's a balloon payment.
Alexis : but Yeah, it's a balloon.
Plant People: It's coming due, baby. It's coming due. I don't know. ah Do people, I've seen even. Folks, because seeds do hit the ground naturally, you get a low lower germination rate, but I've seen folks that are maintaining established beds do a good job after they mow, if if mowing's part of the regime, and it is a lot of those.
Plant People: you know, every so many years. And then they'll go in and overseed like the tiny seeded stuff, knowing it's a lower germination rate, but they're just trying to boost ah whatever's there just to give it a bump.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: And, you know, even if you get 10 % rate.
Alexis : That could also be part of that like spring, fall, like they recommend it in the spring.
Plant People: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Alexis : That way, if you need to come back in the fall, maybe that's.
Plant People: Oh, true. Yeah, I didn't think about that.
Alexis : true true too of some species that
Plant People: Because you're going to have some bare soil there still, or even, I mean, maybe.
Alexis : Mhm.
Brett: Top.
Plant People: Yeah, that that makes sense.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Brett: Talk to me about this mowing thing.
Plant People: it Well, you mentioned all the native grasses. So, yeah, those are bunchy, bunchy grasses and natives.
Alexis : Yeah. So the... the standard maintenance is like a basically a once a year mow. um And this kind of comes back to what you prefer.
Alexis : So like if you're doing this for wildlife and for pollinators, you are not going to mow until spring, like early spring, but kind of after everything, because to Brett's point.
Plant People: ah
Plant People: m
Alexis : you can have some nice goldfinch populations uh but also in those stocks that are hollow
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : And Jessica's the entomology person here, but, you know, there's insects using that over winter, right?
Jessica : Right. Yeah, that's a great way to help native bees. there you go in the little stocks of all of those uh perennials a lot of the ones that you mentioned as the like the big five right there that like you should install they use those to to overwinter in.
Alexis : Mm -hmm.
Plant People: Oh.
Jessica : So yeah, waiting until the spring.
Alexis : Mhm.
Jessica : springtime when they're done overwintering before you do that mow you're going to benefit all sorts of critters besides just like your pollinators.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Alexis : Yeah. Everything that's on the ground, you know, you've got, you know, you're different. bugs and mice and different things like that that are going to be down in there so but when you do mow you're mowing high and by mowing high that's six to eight inches is what you're looking for which isn't as high I think as people when I hear mow high I'm like 12 inches or more but it's
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: Yeah, like on a boom or something.
Plant People: I was thinking, yeah, 10 or 12, yeah.
Alexis : Yeah. Yeah, but the...
Plant People: But yeah, you won't hurt anything.
Alexis : six to eight is you can get away with that especially if you're doing it in the spring because every and everything will mow really should mow really easy because it's all dead oak winter.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: and if you And if you hit it just right, you can even like disper you don't want to mow too early because then your seeds are immature and you're trying to get things to self -seed. So just be really careful about that.
Alexis : Mm hmm.
Plant People: But I've seen some of the professional companies, they strategize. but when they mow, because that helps further disperse seeds, it kind of kicks them around.
Alexis : Mm hmm. Yeah.
Plant People: And i I thought that was pretty interesting. I hadn't thought much about that, but that kind of makes sense.
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: I have never mowed.
Alexis : And you...
Brett: Ours.
Alexis : Well, that's to say I said every year, but, you know, just like.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Again, doing like the reading that I've been doing because I'm learning alongside. So this was great because I got to learn and do it for work. but um Really, the purpose of mowing is more because you're like, well, mow it doesn't get mowed in the you know wilderness, right?
Alexis : It's more for keeping woody shrubs and stuff.
Plant People: Six. Succession, yeah
Alexis : Well, keeping woody shrubs and invasives down. So like sumac, for example, can be one that if you're mowing it every every other year, occasionally.
Plant People: Mhm. Yeah.
Alexis : and you're in a field setting, That's where that comes into place.
Plant People: Yeah. I was thinking of mowing is a big area.
Alexis : keeping
Brett: um
Alexis : saplings stuff like that yeah versus Brett you're you're talking about like sort of a backyard area you're not you can hand pull any
Plant People: is big. Yeah.
Brett: m
Plant People: You may never mow it.
Alexis : random
Brett: Right right right
Alexis : Woody's out.
Brett: Well, we do we do every year when Annie's cabin fever of winter and spring has reached its pinnacle.
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: She goes through a process called that we call... stomping the yard. where she just goes out and sort of stomps all of the all the stems and things back down to the ground to kind of...
Plant People: Can't do dances? Um...
Brett: provide a little bit of a mulch layer and.
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: But we just leave everything in place.
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: But interesting. that's interesting so So you're saying the mowing is kind of like a maintenance on other, even on other non -target.
Alexis : mm -hmm
Plant People: it's It's almost like...
Brett: or non -desirable things that might be in the mix.
Plant People: Because burning is, we don't recommend, I mean, because we're specific. I mean, yeah, burning could be. The same as the process of mowing, you're just trying to keep succession down. And sometimes it benefits, you know, what's there.
Plant People: like particularly the native grasses. But I was thinking what Alexis just said was if you've got. two or three acres, that's just to keep those, you know, trees and woodies from growing up.
Alexis : who
Alexis : Mhm.
Plant People: Basically on larger scales, mowing or burning is kind of important. I think
Brett: I... do not Do not ever do this. I, the first year we had native.
Plant People: Uh oh.
Brett: Well, the... first fall after we'd had native plants. I initiated a burn on ah like a five by 10 section.
Plant People: Mm -hmm.
Brett: And it was fine. Nothing, that nothing bad happened, but I was imagining if like, it but it was.
Plant People: Yeah. Oh darn. Super.
Jessica : Whole fire department shows up for your backyard.
Brett: Epic.
Plant People: Like just went up.
Brett: It went so fast.
Plant People: Just went up.
Brett: It went so fast.
Plant People: Went up. ah
Brett: And it it it had it had it had been raining.
Plant People: Was it terrifying?
Brett: The air surrounding area was safe.
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: You know, I'm not qualified to initiate. And I haven't done it since. so
Plant People: Yeah. It left an impression.
Brett: Um,
Alexis : Was Annie just like a bundle of nerves? like
Brett: Annie was not there or aware. She may not even ever be aware.
Alexis : That tracks.
Plant People: Bread. Brett did it well.
Alexis : that i that was That was question two.
Brett: However, my next door neighbor, who is awesome, came out and was like, are you going to burn that?
Plant People: Hmm. Man.
Brett: I was like. Yeah.
Plant People: Let's go.
Alexis : my lunch
Plant People: Can I watch?
Jessica : mm -hmm
Brett: Yeah, we did it.
Alexis : Mm -hmm.
Brett: And we were both like, Whew. Well. Okay.
Plant People: Glad that wasn't a one acre.
Brett: go ahead that's right
Plant People: It's terrifying to watch it on an acre scale.
Brett: Because it just goes.
Plant People: I've done that. It's terrifying, yeah. It just burns so quick.
Brett: So don't do that. Don't do that.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah. Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. be cognizant
Alexis : Don't do that. well A few. um resources maybe that I want to point out as we kind of finish up here ah Kentucky Wild which is the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife
Alexis : part of their jazz Kentucky wild, they have, um, some information, have a really nice table, um, on a seed mix that they've got. And that is trying to look at the website, um, a very long website. We'll, we'll post that. But if you look at politics, pollinator habitat demonstration site and put Kentucky wild there um that will pop up. And I thought that one was really nice.
Alexis : and actually normally i don't recommend publications that are super far away from Kentucky because the zone is usually very different. But if we're talking about process, the process for establishing wildlife habitat is pretty much the same no matter what.
Alexis : ah And New Hampshire, the University of New Hampshire has a planting for pollinators, establishing a wildflower meadow from seed fact sheet. It is really great and has really great pictures. So if you're like, OK, but what is it actually going to look like in year one? They have year one like.
Alexis : through the seasons, year two through the seasons.
Plant People: Oh, like it.
Brett: That's awesome.
Alexis : So it's really cool.
Plant People: Did you say New Hampshire?
Alexis : And most... And yeah, University of New Hampshire and most of their um species that they list that they were using in this trial that they did are the same as us.
Plant People: Good.
Alexis : Like, I think. Literally nine, I would say nine out of. Well, I think they've got 20. So like 19 out of 20 are on you know our list as well. um So so it's. pretty comparable and and we have The list I really like to use um that we have for Kentucky, Jessica is actually working on a native species list. herself that we're going to publish the ccd but uh what we have currently is actually in our um
Alexis : Rain Garden publication, right Jess?
Jessica : yeah Yeah, the rain garden has a lot of great information for natives and planting in those locations.
Alexis : Yeah. so that
Jessica : and
Alexis : Yeah. So even if you're not putting in a rain garden, still go look up that University of Kentucky publication because there are really great tables um that talk about native plants and, ah you know.
Jessica : and
Alexis : both flowers and shrubs and even some trees in there too if you're interested in any of those but i love that it's like two or three pages of tables and it tells you full sun or wet or whatever so that can be a really great place to start too so um anybody got any other websites they really like to look at
Plant People: The plant society, native plant society has got some good resources.
Alexis : Oh yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: I use theirs some. It's a... it's pretty good They've got lots and lots of stuff, but yeah.
Alexis : And then the um also, I don't know how I forgot to mention this one, the Lady Byrne Johnson Wildflower Center.
Plant People: oh yeah they're laid out really well by like season and stuff they do an excellent job yeah
Alexis : see Yeah. Yeah, you can look up your specific area and it'll tell you what natives are.
Plant People: Yeah. it's one of the best
Alexis : best yeah yeah that one's top tier so ah Those are some great ones. If you have questions about that, of course, feel free to reach out. Like I said, I personally have been doing my own research for my my fields.
Alexis : ah So I can tell you what I know based on you know what I have been looking up.
Plant People: We'll need an update like next year and the year after and, you know.
Alexis : Yeah. I'll send you the burndown photos. We're about to do a ah spray.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : I'm very stressed. Luckily, it's very far away from all of my production fields.
Plant People: Oh yeah.
Alexis : and in a low area and like I'm gonna you know have a really low sprayer and big droplets and all the things but like I am Huh.
Plant People: Chem.
Alexis : stressed about it.
Plant People: Brett and I can come and burn stuff. I mean, I'll volunteer.
Alexis : ah
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: Brett, what do you think?
Brett: For sure.
Alexis : Um...
Plant People: brett
Brett: 100%.
Plant People: I mean, I've ordered this flamethrower online.
Alexis : i think i'm I think I have to wash my hair that day.
Plant People: I want to use it.
Alexis : Sorry.
Plant People: Sean, sea Jessica, would you volunteer Sean?
Alexis : um
Plant People: He could be the professional advice.
Jessica : he comes I don't know if we want him to come and supervise as well.
Plant People: He won't be a part of this.
Jessica : Right.
Alexis : Oh, well, he is a firefighter, so I guess.
Plant People: He will not be a part of this.
Jessica : He is, yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : But he's a firefighter off duty.
Alexis : I'm like
Plant People: That may go counter to what we're trying to accomplish.
Alexis : But...
Brett: Yeah, he can sign off.
Alexis : That.
Brett: he can sign off
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: We need somebody with a pump truck nearby.
Brett: laughs
Plant People: Trust me. Trust me. We need the pump trucks on standby.
Alexis : Can you just, like, get that on, land like, landed, the lens just show up?
Plant People: Because...
Jessica : Just borrow borrow it for the weekend.
Plant People: I heard that that Brett Wolf doesn't.
Alexis : Yeah, yeah
Brett: Is that a shared use equipment item?
Plant People: um brett Brett Wolf does not play.
Alexis : You know, the fire department is only like a mile and a half from my house, so
Jessica : it
Plant People: Okay.
Brett: I feel good about it
Plant People: Okay.
Alexis : It's fine.
Plant People: This sounds like a barbecue activity.
Alexis : Everything's fine. ah
Plant People: I mean, this is going to be great.
Jessica : Oh, we can roast, we can do s'mores, right?
Brett: hu
Jessica : So we can just.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Yes. but
Alexis : Or the charcuterie s'mores that I really want to do.
Plant People: While we run for our lives, we can...
Jessica : Yeah.
Alexis : Savory s'mores.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: Hold the s'mores behind us.
Alexis : All right. Well, before we take up any more of your time talking about charcuterie s'mores, thank you for being with us today.
Plant People: I know.
Plant People: Hmm.
Alexis : If you've got questions, please feel free to reach out. Follow us on Instagram at Hort Culture Podcast. Shoot us an email. You can find that in the show notes. ah And we would love to hear from you.
Alexis : So anyways, have a great day.
